[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Demon Core]

/aside

Your roles game me an idea.

Carbon-14 v2

2 Mafia Cops, 1 Mafia Cop and 1 Mafia Doctor, or 2 Mafia Doctors

1 Town Pharmacist
1 Town Gunsmith
3 Townies

Notes:
Scum PRs determined by random chance. NB - cop does not equal rolecop.
Pharmacist gets positive on docs.
Gunsmith gets positive on cops.

[Demon Core]

Yeah, doesn't that make it even more townsided? Instead of being two PRs and only one of them is useful, you have two PRs and as few as one of them or as many as two of them are useful.

I was thinking that in Carbon 14, when one scum flipped everyone knew whose results to trust. I was trying to break that, but I see your point.

How about this?

Carbon-15

1 Mafia Godfather
2 Mafia Cops or 1 Mafia Cop and 1 Mafia Doctor or 2 Mafia Doctors

1 Town Pharmacist
1 Town Gunsmith
4 Townies

Notes:
Pharmacist gets positive on docs.
Gunsmith gets positive on cops.
Godfather shows up negative on both.

[Demon Core]

Seems like any setup of that kind is going to be overly dependent on lucky guilties. You can never trust innocent results, so basically the whole setup's balance hinges on the investigators potentially getting guilties.

Yeah, you're right. Forget it.

Whisker's idea is intriguing, but it seems too demanding (killing a

certain

scum?). EDIT: Medhi's idea would actually be good, though. Telling them the partner and then forcing the lyncher to make associative tells. Seems really town-sided though (you have two people who, between them, know the entire scumteam).

2 Mafiosi

2 Hunters

5 Townies

Notes:
Hunters have one shot daykill. Daykill does NOT end the day.
In order to win, hunters need to either a) kill scum with their shot or b) have a hand in lynching scum.
Hunters exit the game upon fulfilling their wincon. If this happens, mafia lose their nightkill for the subsequent night.

[Demon Core]

@Cheery Dog: Oh, yeah, you're right

2 Mafiosi

2 Bulletproof Hunters

5 Townies

Notes:
Hunters have one shot daykill, but do NOT have a vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
In order to win, hunters need to hit scum with their daykill.
Hunters lose if they hit town with their daykill.
Hunters exit the game upon using their shot.

[Demon Core]

That doesn't seem fun for the Hunters and hard for the town...

Hunters act scummy and/or obfuscate until LYLO, shoot a dude, probably win.

If Hunters shoot both goons, does the town still win? In that case, halfway random lynching down to MYLO, no lynch and let the hunters sort it out.

Being a hunter doesn't sound fun?
Personally, I'd love to get the "hunter" role. Everyone knows I'm not scum, I can't get NKed, and I get a daykill.

The hunters are going to be outed early (they have no vote), so why would they act scummy? And why would they sabotage the town? If anything, they should be the ones with the most incentive to scumhunt.

Likewise, why would the town get lazy? If they do that, they're making the hunter's job harder.

And yes, if hunters shoot goons, town still wins.

[Demon Core]

So they are really Bulletproof Innocent Child 1-shot Dayvigs (change Hunter to Superhero ).

Yes, it's a lot of power, but it's also a lot of pressure. Miss, and you they lose. Also, if town lynches scum before either hunter gets a shot off, one of them has to lose.

I don't think the goons should lose their kill if a townie gets shot.

Yeah, I thought about that and took that out.

[Demon Core]

I dont like due to luck involved. It has the same flaw as AitP has in that someone can essentially claim scum D1 and win due to luck of a pick. I mean, I could technically go "Shoot X" first post as a hunter and I have a 22% win chance. Its not *high* but its possible.

Well, you

could

do that, but that wouldn't be very satisfying. Wouldn't you, you know, want to play the game? See how sharp your scumhunting skills are ... etc? Also, did you miss the part about hunters losing if they miss? You could really see people taking a 20/80 chance like that?

I would say include hunters being able to win if they are alive when town achieves their win condition. Otherwise its just unfair to them.

...then I fear that they won't use their shot as wisely. How about this?

More Pressure

2 Mafiosi

2 Bulletproof Hunters

3 Townies

Notes:
Hunters' identities are announced by the mod at the beginning of the game.
Hunters have one shot daykill, but do NOT have a vote to start out. Daykill does NOT end the day.
Hunters can instantly win if they hit scum with their daykill, at which point they exit the game.
If hunters miss on their daykill, they forfeit their bulletproof status and gain the power to vote. They win and exit the game if they have a hand in lynching scum.

Actually, scratch that. That game up there

would

encourage the "just shoot into the crowd" strategy, because even if both hunters miss the first day, they have a 2/3 chance of lynching scum that day. Not a good way to reward a missed shot, IMO. I will adjust the numbers, though, because the "less pressure" counterpart to this game has 3 Mafia vs. 2 confirmed town and 3 townies.

More Pressure

2 Mafiosi

2 Bulletproof Hunters

3 Townies

Notes:
Hunters' identities are announced by the mod at the beginning of the game.
Hunters have one shot daykill, but do NOT have a vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
Hunters win if they hit scum with their shot. They lose if they hit town.

[Demon Core]

Actually- mass claim day one, no lynch.

Either townies die at night...or they don't. Hunters win.

(Not that mass claiming a game with all townies means much, but you get the idea.)

There has to be something else to make it work.

Compulsive lynch?

[Demon Core]

It's just very kingmakery. It's not fun to play as a VT in that setup. One (or in this case, two) player(s) are superhero-gods and everyone else is normal. It gives one (or in this case, two) person(s) a huge amount of power and town really can't do anything. It's based entirely around the Hunter role, and the whole game depends on him (them).

Like, what if PMysterious, or RapidCanyon, got into that game as VTs? What are they going to do? If they look bad, Hunters will shoot them, losing the game for the whole town.
It's just not fun.
Or at least, I wouldn't play it.

Townies can still lynch without the Hunters. Since hunters don't have a vote, it would only take 3 to lynch (so, vote-wise, you start off in 5 man LYLO with 2 extra third parties).

You have a point, but I can't make this setup VI-proof (I guess it would be up to the mod to keep known VIs out, they do it for every other game anyway). Yes, sometimes bad vigilantes lose for the town; does that mean we should ditch the vig role altogether? I'm just designing this game under the assumption that everyone is playing toward their win condition, keeping with the spirit of the game, and not being jackasses (hunters shooting randomly in their first post would be a jackass move). And if we need to start designing games to be jackass-proof, I think we need to stick to mountainous.

And what if one of those players drew Hunter? "YOU MUST HATE JIGGLYPUFF! *PEW*!" and "I'M SO CAUGHT UP IN MY OWN READS THAT I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING ELSE! *PEW!*"

And-- okay, what if town

won

, even? It wouldn't

feel

like a win, because I, the VT, wholly dependant on the Hunters to shoot correctly, don't play any real part in winning the game and don't feel rewarded when town wins.
Same with mafia. I imagine mafia playing this setup cowering in a corner and hoping the Hunters don't shoot them. If they win, it's not because they're clever or smart or lucky, it's because the Hunters shot wrong.

I tried to balance that by giving the hunter only one shot to win the game (in the hopes that maybe it would be safe to assume that at least one of them would wait until there's a flip or two before shooting).

As for the whole "winning as scum" thing, how is that different from normal? You're usually trying to stay on the good side of only one or two town loudmouths anyway. How would this game be any different?

[Demon Core]

OK, thinking on it, it's still town sided.

More Pressure

3 Mafiosi

2 Hunters

4 Townies

Notes:
Nightless, compulsive lynch.
Scum have daytalk.
Hunters' identities are announced by the mod at the beginning of the game.
Hunters have one shot daykill and no vote. Daykill does NOT end the day.
Hunters win if they hit scum with their shot. They lose if they hit town.
Hunters exit the game upon using their shot.

There, now town pretty much starts out in a 7 man LYLO. This way, it's actually optimal for hunters to wait until after at least one flip to shoot. It gives town a chance even after a mislynch. And, the scumteam cannot be entirely destroyed by the hunters, meaning that the town has to lynch correctly at least once, meaning that the VTs have a purpose.

[Demon Core]

Scum would win day 2 after the hunter shoots the VT.

Mafia has to have 50% of living population at any point to win.

[Demon Core]

Split the difference at six? I feel like yours is town sided. Also, get rid of the nightless mechanic.

My opinion is that the individual is better at hitting scum than the group. This all depends on the individuals getting the kill, though, which will make the game swingy.

Don't underestimate the power the dayvig has to screw scum over, though.

[Demon Core]

...well, I would revise this set up but I give up now. I've bastardized it to the point where it's pretty much a 7 player vengeful with the venge shot in some other random asshole's hands.

Stupid idea, forget it.

[Demon Core]

Still, I like playing the lone wolf and the predator. I like to fool people, and I like to stay alive. I want more 3rd-party non-killing roles!

Your opinion, similar to why you and I disagree on the "hunter" role.

I hate the lyncher because it takes out all the parts of mafia that I like (testing my intuition) and leaves the part I hate (manipulating other people or convincing them to do what you want).

Conversely that's why I love the "hunter" role. It takes out the parts I hate and leaves in the part I like.