[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Trojan Horse]

Basic Twelve Player,

12 Players

3 Mafia
1 Cop
1 Doctor
7 Citizens
Night Start

[Trojan Horse]

Assuming all lynches are random, a 12 player nightless game with 9 townies and 3 mafia would be fair (50-50 shot). Taking into account the town's ability to find mafia... maybe 7-3 or 8-3 would be best.

7-4? My money's definitely on the mafia with that one.

[Trojan Horse]

Okay, I've given it some further thought. I agree, we need to skew things percentagewise towards the mafia in a nightless game, since the mafia can't get rid of not-so-scummy people (a big disadvantage). I'm now leaning towards either 3-6 or 4-8 as the best nightless setup.

As for the two scum group nightless game... there's a weird twist that arises here. Let's say we are down to a single townie and two equal sized mafia families. For simplicity, let's say it's 1-1-1 (2-2-1 would be similar). In a regular mafia game, we'd have a no-lynch, followed by a prisoner's dilemma situation. But here, there aren't any no-lynches or night killings. So what happens?

If I was the townie, I'd say this: "I'm the townie. Don't you DARE vote for me. If you do, I'll vote you back. I'll throw the game to the other scum." Whether they believe I'm the townie or not, it seems to me that we might end up with a "happily-ever-after" scenario, with no one daring to vote for anyone else. What do you guys think about that?

[Trojan Horse]

So, Kelly would drop a townie from Yosarian's setup, and Fiasco would add a couple more. Sounds like it's fine as it is.

Seriously though, if we figure one or two prevented night kills, and add in the extra info provided by such blocked kills, plus the fact that the doc and jailkeeper are hard to counterclaim... Yosarian's setup should give the town at least as much chance as in a 3:12 vanilla game (and maybe a bit more). I'd either leave it as is, or drop one townie. It's a tough call.

[Trojan Horse]

Like Fiasco, I disagree with SL that any other outcome would have resulted in a scum loss. Take just the case he singled out, where Quag is lynched day 2.

Night 2: Gamer, Pod(3), Goin(3)
Day 3: Gamer, Pod(2), Goin(3) (for example)

If Pod is now lynched, scum wins. If Goin is lynched, then Pod is shot again, and it's a 50-50 guess for Goin. Plenty of chances for scum to win.

Personally, I'm confident that the Resilient setup is balanced. (I was the mod of the game in question, by the way. So I'm biased.)

[Trojan Horse]

Bah, there goes Simc9. One of my great ideas.

And there I was, glad that a scumchat game I agreed to mod led to an improved open setup. And now you're giving up on it? I think this adjusted version is fine as is.

The problem with Kelly's suggestion is that it makes some players (the power roles) more likely to be scum than the other players. In that case, I'd probably lynch a claimed cop/doc on the spot if they looked even a little scummy; I'd be playing the odds. Besides, having a power role be scum 1/3 of the time is often enough, I think.

If you really need more variety in the game, why not have a second role available for a recruited townie to become? Say, if a townie is recruited into the mafia, he has a 50% chance of becoming a roleblocker, and a 50% chance of becoming...

I don't know. Some kind of framer?

[Trojan Horse]

Okay, this talk about the Godfather C9 setup has gotten me thinking about Simenon's setup again. As a reminder:

Nominate Simenon c9 2

1 mafia recruiter who can recruit one player once at the beginning of the game.
1 cop
1 doctor
4 townies.

If the mafia recruiter recruits a townie, the townie becomes a mafia rber.

The complaint was that the setup would turn out to be a Pie C9 a full 2/3 of the time. I thought that we could spice things up by adding in a second role that a recruited townie might become... and I think we've just found that second role. How about this:

Simtar C9

1 mafia recruiter who can recruit one player once at the beginning of the game.
1 cop (sane)
1 doctor
4 townies.

If the mafia recruiter recruits a townie, the townie becomes a mafia rber or a mafia godfather (50% chance of either). A mafia rber can kill and block in the same night.



How's that? Or am I just beating a dead horse here?

[Trojan Horse]

So Simtar (?) is in effect:

If you're confused about the name: since Tarhalindur proposed the Godfather C9 setup, I took the first parts of his name and Simenon's. Sorry about the confusion.

I also think the whole idea may be more interesting in a larger setup...

Probably right about that.

[Trojan Horse]

Grr. You just had to suggest a larger setup, Kelly. You just had to get me thinking about it.

Alright, if for no other reason than to make it easier for me to get to sleep tonight, here are my preliminary thoughts on expanding Simenon's setup. If it works, great; if not, I'll scrap it.

Here's the probable framework for a 12-player setup:

1 mafia recruiter
4 protown power roles, of various types
7 vanilla townies

Recruiter recruits two players during night 0, and cannot recruit thereafter. No other actions are taken night 0. If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either Mafia Power Role X or Mafia Power Role Y, with a 50-50 chance for each. (If both recruits are vanilla, then one will become X and one will become Y.) That's it.

Why exactly 4 protown power roles? That is the minimum needed for the odds to be in FAVOR of some power role being recruited. Also, if both recruits are power roles, we will end up with something similar to this iconic setup, which is almost certainly balanced. Note: we could make it 5 power roles, as long as they are not too strong. It all depends on what roles are chosen.

So, it all comes down to choosing the right protown and proscum power roles. And that may be tricky. One thing that needs to be considered: what benefits might the mafia get by having a recruited power role? Mafia cops and mafia docs are nearly useless (so it wasn't a consideration in Simenon's game). But a recruited tracker or roleblocker could be very useful to the mafia. And a recruited vig? The mafia could go on a shooting spree.

One thought I had: perhaps if a power role is recruited, he becomes a plain mafia. But that idea has problems as well; it would be tough for a recruited tracker or roleblocker to masquerade as a protown power role, when his ability no longer works. We're probably better off letting recruits retain their abilities, and just balancing the game accordingly.

So, what roles should be used? Better question: is this an idea worth looking into, or should I just forget it?

I'll sleep on it.

[Trojan Horse]

Oh yeah? Well, I counterclaim townie! Howzabout that, huh?

[Trojan Horse]

Okay then, Guardian. Let me give you my first attempt.

First of all, I'm now starting to think that having 5 protown power roles is the way to go, instead of 4. I was using the basic 12 player setup (cop, doc, 7 townies, 3 mafs) as a standard for what happens when 2 power roles are recruited. The problem with that is that it doesn't take into account whatever benefits the mafia get from the recruited power roles. Adding an extra power role should take care of that.

Having said that, let's see what I can do in my first try:

Quick Recruit Mini (Version 1)

1 mafia recruiter (recruits two players night zero, then acts as a mafia goon thereafter)
1 cop (sane)
1 doctor
1 tracker
1 roleblocker
1 one-shot bulletproof vest (survives first nightkill attempt)
6 vanilla townies

No actions are taken night zero except for the recruitings.

If a roleblocker is recruited, he loses his ability, and becomes a plain mafia goon. If any other protown power role is recruited, he retains his ability.

If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either a mafia rber or a mafia spy (50-50 chance). A mafia spy may investigate someone at night and find out that person's role. If both recruits are vanilla townies, one will become a mafia rber, and one will become a mafia spy.

Any mafia with other night abilities may kill and use his other ability in the same night. If such a mafia (taking two actions) is tracked, the tracker only receives the mafia's kill target.

There you have it. A couple of things that bother me right now: it's an extra bit of complexity to have a recruited roleblocker get "nerfed", but to have other power roles NOT get nerfed. Why did I set it up that way? It's not that I think a recruited roleblocker would help the mafia too much (Kelly allayed my fears on that). I just don't want to see the mafia end up with TWO roleblockers, the other one coming from a recruited townie.

The other thing that bothers me; the one-shot NK immune isn't the most exciting choice for a power role. I'm not really sure what role would be better, though. One-shot vig? Governor? I don't really want a rolecop or a watcher; we have enough info roles already. I'll have to give that one some more thought.

[Trojan Horse]

Oh yeah? Well, I counterclaim townie! Howzabout that, huh?

Ok, so is your partner going to leave two confirmed docs, or two confirmed cops?

You win.

[Trojan Horse]

Now that I've had a chance to look at Kelly's latest setups...

Nominate: Crush A

Out of the three Crush setups, it has the best balance of the win percentages, IMO.

[Trojan Horse]

With Pie's Screw the Players game now well underway, I had a crazy thought. It might be possible to take this idea and rework it into a more serious game. It would be a game for (roughly) 12 players (all of whom must publicly sign up); 7 get the roles for C9, and the rest become "unplayers". With the right win condition for the unplayers- one that encourages them to act like real players- this could be an interesting game.

Screwy C9
2 mafia
0-1 cop
0-1 doctor
3-5 townies
5 unplayers

Roles other than unplayers work as usual. Unplayers come up guilty to cops, and are immune to all nightkillings.

During the day, anyone may vote, and all votes will be listed in vote counts. However, votes made by unplayers will not be counted in determining if someone got lynched; it takes a majority of "real players" to lynch someone. Unplayers can be lynched just like everyone else.

While a lynch becomes official once a majority of real votes has been reached, lynches will not be announced right away. Every so often (say, every 48 hours), the mod will make a vote count and announce if anyone has been lynched or not. So if extra votes have been added to that player in the meantime, it may not be obvious which players actually caused the lynch.

Protown players win if both mafia are lynched; mafia win if they comprise half the remaining group, ignoring unplayers. The game ends once either of those things happens.

Unplayers are not a team; each wins or loses individually.

An unplayer wins if the mafia tries to nightkill him at any point, or if he is the last unplayer to be lynched during the game. (Or both.)

There's my first attempt at a win condition, though there's gotta be some better ideas out there.

Thoughts?

[Trojan Horse]

I hadn't pictured him exiting the game; I pictured him sticking around, not yet knowing that he's won. But now that you mention it, perhaps him being immune to nightkills isn't such a good idea (I was just retaining the rule from Pie's game). Perhaps he should be killed off just like anyone else.

The reason why I chose a win condition like this: I want the unplayers to be rewarded for fooling everyone else into thinking they're "real players". Having the win condition be survival wouldn't work; if I'm an unplayer, and everyone figures that out, I'm SURE to survive. (Who'd waste a lynch/kill on me?) The win condition has to involve being lynched or nightkilled in some way. Then again, if an unplayer can win by being lynched at ANY time, that turns all unplayers into jesters. So I restricted their chances of winning by being lynched.

[Trojan Horse]

"the last unplayer to be lynched" seems wierd...so, you win if you get lynched, but not if another unplayer gets lynched after you do? What's the goal there?

To try to capture how things are working in Pie's Screw the Players game, I wanted to give the unplayers a chance to win either by helping the town or by helping the scum. An unplayer getting nightkilled helps the town; an unplayer getting lynched helps the scum. Thing is, I didn't want unplayers to effectively become jesters, so I added that extra constraint. It encourages them to act innocent for as long as possible, before screwing the town at the end.

Perhaps the way I set it up does make the unplayers too uninterested in which side wins. Would something like this be better?

A nightkilled unplayer wins with town. A lynched unplayer wins with scum.

I don't know. But there's gotta be something good in here somewhere. Perhaps I should wait and see how Pie's game plays out.

[Trojan Horse]

Heehee. Nice. But does his vote count during the day, or not?

[Trojan Horse]

I'm assuming the game is named after the bane of Southern California: the 405 freeway. (An aptly named highway, since it'll take you "4 Or 5" hours to get where you want to go. )

[Trojan Horse]

Double Jester Mafia 1.1

3 Goons
2 Jesters
1 Cop
6 Townies

The first Jester to get lynched wins. If the second Jester is still alive at that point, his role and win condition reverts to that of a vanilla townie and he is no longer a Jester.

If any members of the mafia are on the wagon that lynches a Jester, they lose their NK the following night.

So if there IS a nightkill the night after a Jester is lynched, then the town knows that no one on the bandwagon was scum? Sounds to me like the scum shouldn't nightkill after a Jester is lynched, even if they are able to. It would give the whole show away.

[Trojan Horse]

We need something like the "dice" feature, except instead of rolling dice it spits out setups.

We have something like that already, Kelly. It's in the IRC room. It's called "Xylbot".

[Trojan Horse]

That's basically the same as:

2 scum lovers
4 townies
Nightless

Except that with your setup, you're basically playing double-headed (two players controlling each role). Rather just play it with 6.

[Trojan Horse]

And the scum don't have to "vote each other sometimes" in the 6 player version? Sounds the same to me.

[Trojan Horse]

Bad News, Good News

2 Mafia (If one dies, the other becomes a Mafia Roleblocker and can kill as well)
2 Masons (If one dies, the other becomes a Cop)
2 Masons (If one dies, the other becomes a Doctor)
2 Masons (If one dies, the other becomes a Roleblocker)
1 Miller

This may be very unbalanced, I just wanted to throw a set up out there.

Unbalanced indeed. Massclaim day 1. I don't see how the town can lose.

[Trojan Horse]

I'm not sure which of these two setups is best deserving of the name:

Trendy and Subversive C9- A

2 Mafia
1 Cop or Deputy
1 Doc or Nurse
3 Townies

Trendy and Subversive C9- B

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Cop or Nurse
1 Doc or Deputy
3 Townies

Either way town's a little more powerful than regular C9, which is probably a good thing.

Both could be considered trendy, but the latter is more subversive. In setup A, a deputy or nurse knows that his role is worthless, except as something that he can claim (and that will be risky for the scum to counterclaim). With setup B, a deputy or nurse has a 50-50 chance of actually being useful.

I like setup B better.

[Trojan Horse]

Two years ago? Was this post your inspiration, Twomz?

[Trojan Horse]

swingy, powerrole heavy madness with bizzare massclaim results:

Gun Show Mafia

50% Chance of setup being:

1 Godfather (can kill with a gun, immune to cop investigation)
1 Mafia Goon (can kill with a gun)
1 Mac the Knife (mafia, can kill with his knife)
1 SK (can kill with a gun or a knife, immune to cop investigation, immune to NK)
1 Gun Collector
1 Cop (confirmed sane, has a gun, investigates mafia)
1 Gunsmith (also has a gun and doesn't use it)
1 Miller
4 Townies

day start

50% Chance of setup being:

1 Godfather (mafia A, can kill with a gun, immune to cop investigation)
1 Mafia Goon (mafia A, can kill with a gun)
1 Mac the Knife (mafia A, can kill with his knife)
1 Godfather (mafia B, can kill with a gun, immune to cop investigation)
1 Mafia Goon (mafia B, can kill with a gun)
1 Mac the Knife (mafia B, can kill with his knife)
2 Gunsmiths (has a gun, doesn't use it)
4 Townies

day start

edit: fixed by shaft.ed's suggestion in the next post.

I have no idea whether or not this setup is balanced. Could really favor the town. Could really favor the scum. Could be balanced. I'd be willing to wager that this game is unbalanced, though I have no idea which way.

And yet, if this game is run, I don't think I'd be able to resist signing up.

[Trojan Horse]

Indeed. If it were "Two Lynches a Day Mafia" (with the same 3:14 breakdown) instead, perhaps the town would have a reasonable chance.

[Trojan Horse]

Guess the point is that the mafia cop knows there's no town cop in the game, so he can safely claim cop. (Though that claim won't save him, of course.)

It's just a split role/alignment version of C9.

[Trojan Horse]

Alright, let me give it a try.

Boat A:
2 Mafia
3 Townies

Boat B:
1 Mafia
4 Townies

Nightless game. One thread, and both boats can lynch at their own separate pace. (That is, one boat can lynch one or more players while the other boat waits.) Boat A and Boat B both have the option to blow up the other boat instead of a lynch, which will take a majority to reach.

Town wins if all mafia are dead. Mafia win if they comprise at least 50% of the people on each boat still afloat. (If Boat A gets to 2 Mafia and 1 Townie, the mafia automatically blow up Boat B and win.)

How's that?

[Trojan Horse]

The two boats are indistinguishable. (I assume that was the case for the other proposed setups, too.)

[Trojan Horse]

LOL

Scum: Hey guys, lynch us! We're the scum, and we all predicted that the town would win! So lynch us, please!

Town: Uh, we all predicted that the scum would win.

Scum: Oops...