[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Junpei]

I think the setup is scum sided. You have 1 scum that will never be seen as mafia and guilties for each cop are 50/50 town/mafia. Although I do ask, are millers revealed as millers upon death?

Also I have a setup that I'd like to discuss after this one, I don't know where the queue is to discuss setups.

edit: Also I think that it is okay if it is a little scum sided as you have to account for scumhunting which is a huge variable. It is definitely a pretty good setup though. Has it been discussed if we change the GF into a nilla mafia and have millers die as nilla on death? Or maybe just make GF nilla and not have millers die as nilla mafia on death?

[Junpei]

I did some thinking about fools and this is what I came up with, here are my notes on the setup. I posted this is another forum but so slow to respond there~~

edit: fool =jester

1 mafia RB
1 odd day fool
1 even day fool
1 town watcher
1 town cop
however many VTs you think

fools show as guilty on reports
fools can visit 1 person every night but their visit does nothing but show up on watcher reports

I call it Lesson in Fools, but maybe it should be called something clever involving the word motivation, meh I dont' care to think about names

Here's the logic. Cop serves 1 purpose: To clear town. Gulties will only bring up fools/mafia which is good. However clear towns > fool/mafia confirmed. Watcher serves two purposes. To protect cop from death, or to try and catch mafia/fools messing around.

There is a lot of wifom and I don't want to disclose all of it, but fools would have a choice to make. If they get caught roaming around at night on a non-kill, then they might look bad. However remember, that Mafia has a non-killing night action, so dont mistake the fool for the RB!

It's a setup full of scumhunting based on motivation (fools want to be lynched on a certain day, mafia don't want to get lynched, town want to find scum/fools). In this setup, a fool lynch DOES end the game. This adds more tension in deciding who to lynch. I believe this is fair because they are just odd/even night fools and it's hard to put those tells down.

Total reveal on death. So you are told if it is a odd/even night fool etc. Starts on day 1. So, it'd best to have something like 9 people meaning 4 VTs I think. But I could be wrong, I've never modded a game before so I don't really know what makes the most sense (help in this area?). This way there is town motivation to lynch, too big a game leads to not enough motivation, I think.

Oh, and not to mention, beware of the fool-mafia joint!

I think this game has a lot of potential if the idea is fleshed out some more. Anyone have comments on how we can make this setup better?

I've done some thinking and I think that there's a good chance that town would NL anyways in this setup. If this happens I think the setup will be fine. Whether or not town lynches will not be toxic for the setup.

Also thought about the event that watcher or cop die the first night (especially after NL) and I don't think the game will be toxic even then. This isn't PR oriented at all, rather scum oriented. Perhaps knock it up to 6 or even 8 VTs so that town has more MLs, although my reasoning on only 4 was that town don't need MLs, as there are fools, what they need more than that is concentrated amounts of scum to work with. Although due to mafia joints I can see logic against it. But even if there is a joint, that is 2v7, 2v5, 2v3, which means 2 MLs including the reports to hit the 1 scum. Although I recognize that with the two fools that this setup makes it much harder to hit the scum. So maybe 6 VTs so we have 2v9 at maximum implying a joint, 3 MLs would definitely be sufficient I think and 11 players is probably the max, 9 or 11 I think are good numbers. They make town (especially 9) want to lynch day 1 so they don't lose a lynch, but there is plenty of logic for both paths. I know some people don't like having VTs because it's a 'boring' role, but I am of the opinion they are very important roles that help the game. Basically, more VTs = harder to hit scum for town but also = delays joint longer, although with fools that might not be towns' biggest concern. 4 is my ideal amount of VTs given the theorycrafting I've done, but I am listening to all comments.

[Junpei]

I don't think the site likes Jester games.

Yes but listen can't you guys stop saying "I don't like Jesters" and start saying "I'll try to learn to beat/play with Jesters?". I think my setup is a great way to incorporate Jesters into an enjoyable mafia game. I see that you are good at fleshing out ideas so please give me more comments than "NOPE JESTER GAME NOPE".

[Junpei]

The problem is there is only one mafia member, and two jesters. Jesters are as bad as advertised.

Explain~~

[Junpei]

It's not mafia.

Are you saying it isn't mafia because the minority isn't informed? I see your reasoning there but this is still a great game to play... You could say that the minority isn't informed in closed setups too though because they aren't informed on a lot of things including third party.

[Junpei]

Oh yeah, one Mafioso is Not Mafia. Add an extra Mafioso and turn the Cop into a Vig (you need a way to get rid of the jesters).

Then cause the Jesters to be on a team with a roleblock.

Uh I don't think that's a great idea. Maybe I will add 1 mafia and then make 6 VTs my minimum instead of 4 but keep the 2 fools. I like the jester thing... did you read all my points on why this is a good setup? The way to get rid of jesters is from mafia's night kill or just dodging them during the day. It's mafia.

[Junpei]

SK go post filler comments in a non-serious thread. May I direct your attention to Forum 62?

[Junpei]

But the whole point is that as time goes on town is more and more scruntched on time and have to be more careful with the lynch. A vigilante would allow unbalance to unfold. Jesters aren't scum they are just not town. Third party, if you will.

I will add a second mafia to the setup though at the expense of adding more VTs. I do not think that a vigilante is a good thing to add to the setup. It creates a "Town NL and have the vig shot be our lynch" situation to avoid the fools win con.

[Junpei]

Jesters aren't scum they are just not town. Third party, if you will.

In this setup, a fool lynch DOES end the game.

Nope.

So do you think that if I add 1 scum and make fool deaths not end the game it'd be a playable setup? Or still too much jester.........

[Junpei]

Empking I don't understand your post, are you saying that if fools don't end the game on lynch that town will ignore jesters?

You see my logic for having them end the game is that it is very hard to get lynched on a specific set of days, town should scumhunt and try to see who is giving what tells and when they are giving them.

[Junpei]

Well that's another good reason why we should have them end the game.

[Junpei]

Okay, lets start from this. Other than there are jesters in my setup (as in, other than the reason simply being "there are jesters), lets list things that are mechanically wrong with it. For the duration of the conversation can we (unless the argument is that the jesters break the setup somehow) assume that we're trying to create a setup with 2 odd/even day jesters from this?

[Junpei]

:3 I was really trying to not have a vigilante.

So if I had 1 more mafia, make them BP and then place a vig do you think it is good? should I have an odd number of VT to compensate for the extra kill? How many VT should I have in comparison to my original number, 4? I think given the vig being a careful village shot and the extra mafia, give them 6.

[Junpei]

Nope Vi you are forgetting RB.

[Junpei]

:3 I was really trying to not have a vigilante.

So if I had 1 more mafia, make them BP and then place a vig do you think it is good?

Do you think it's good? It's becoming less and less like your original desire.

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, but sometimes you have to let ideas go. I think we've all had a bunch of seemingly good ideas that look grand on the surface, but don't really work when you look at how it plays.

Hmm...

Well, I don't know I see now that fools have to have a way to get killed by town without game-ending consequence. If you guys want to stop discussing with me that's fine, I can try to flesh it out in private. Creating an open fool setup that works it something that I want to do very badly. But I have a new idea that has spawned off of this. What if I went...

1 mafia RB
1 nilla mafia
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 town tracker
1 town cop
1 town vigilante
6 VTs

This way the game starts 9v1v1v2 with a chance to go 9v3 (with vig shots a good number yes?). Tracker could track fool, RB, nilla, vig, cop and has to deduce who it is. Fools can't claim because of RB and vigilante has to be careful to stay in the shadows.

Question: Do all open setups have to have full reveal on death? If not maybe reveal alignment but not specifics (ie, died as fool, died as mafia, died as town).

edit: fools show as guilty, have effectless night action as before

[Junpei]

I meant 9v2, also non-full reveal isn't even a bandaid fix though because since it is never taken off it never bleeds. If it works it works right? But if you want I can explore other options.

[Junpei]

Hm I think that setup would work with a full reveal anyway. It's just the vigilante dying that has me worried a bit.

edit: I'm thinking maybe adding a watcher. And taking out a VT. How does that sound? This protects the vigilante some and increases reports to be made on the mafia.

I've considering getting rid of the RB but then tracker has confirmed fool/cop on a do death track and the mafia lose a way to get around an otherwise town PR heavy setup.

[Junpei]

Jun, what advantages do the fools bring to your game? Why do you want them in? How do you anticipate them playing out?

Ludi, maybe I'm wrong but I think that each moderator has a goal in mind when creating a setup. Whether it be building something around flavor, trying out a new mechanic they thought up, or perhaps some other miscellaneous thing. I want to bring back fools into mafia. I think that if I am able to create a decent setup that uses the fool that it will start to rebuild that role here on mafiascum, so that more people will be able to enjoy it. It'll be a fun project for me and hopefully someone will want to moderate it (I can't mod, no experience, and I don't have any desire to mod any random setups).

[Junpei]

I'd suggest make the suitmaker not kill/participate in mafia meetings but then you'd have to add another mafia and I know how you guys are about no-meeting mafias.

[Junpei]

Are open setups allowed to have slightly altered mechanics? Nothing big, just a small adjustment.

[Junpei]

I think so. Depends on what, doesn't Donner Party for example have a limited reveal?

Well since you're here I might as well tell what it is, I want it so that both mafia partners are tracked to the kill. And so that (for instance) if 1 mafia is nilla and 1 is RB, that if the RB were to use his ability, AND the mafia were to kill, that a track on the RB would show him going to 2 targets, the kill target and the roleblock target.

This would help my setup a lot given the other small changes I've made so I hope it is allowed.

[Junpei]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

The former, the mafia commit the kill as a group, they all could be tracked to the body.

[Junpei]

Also I would really appreciate some comments on my suggestions, i.e. something more helpful than essentially "I don't understand your setup and am too lazy to figure it out".

---

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

---

NightWatch
Wolf Pack (Scum Team): 3 Werewolves - share a factional nightkill - share a factional track - the same werewolf can only either track or kill in each night	Night-Watch (Town-Aligned): 2 Nightwatchmen - Watchers & Masons - cannot target themselves or each other	Town: 7 Vanilla Townies 1 Sleepwalker - visits a random person every night - does not know he is the Sleepwalker - flips as Vanilla on death

So... I'm assuming you want to lynch the mafia with the same color as you? The issue is that there is no way to discern who is what color.

[Junpei]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

The former, the mafia commit the kill as a group, they all could be tracked to the body.

That's quite powerful in how it helps the tracker. What would the full set-up be?

I have been discussing this setup a lot with maxwell in PMs, as well as a bit with Hoopla, but a fourth set of eyes can't hurt. Here is what we got:

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Regular Mafia
1 Odd Day Fool
1 Even Day Fool
1 Town Hider
1 Town Neighbourizer
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Vigilante
8 VTs

Things I'll shoot down quickly:

1) Odd day fools' advantage (an extra day possibly) is greatly diminished (in my opinion it balances itself out) because the later days have less people each day, therefore a greater chance to get lynched

2) A lylo with 1 fool who is not on the day he wants to be lynched, 1 mafia, and 1 town (3way lylo) is not broken in my opinion. If fool doesn't claim he has lost then there's no reason for an issue. If he does, then mafia will too, in fact mafia might go first to feign fool. Then you have off-day fool CCs, with the clear town having to choose between 1) the fool (mafia win) or 2) the mafia (town win).

We're thinking that we'll give neighborizer the choice of getting a new QT or keeping the old one each time he recruits. Day start.

[Junpei]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Empking how about instead of pushing down the setup for those facts you examine it more closely? Notice 2 fools.

Hoopla, there is nothing more than a mental headstart, but each day the chances of a lynch go up and up and up for fool.

[Junpei]

Since you post before my edit.

Only Decent Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

Junpei: The fools hurt Mafia at least as much as the Town (proportional to the odds of them otherwise winning).

Town need to use their vigilante shot to try and shoot down the fools. Mafia need to use their night shot on Town PRs, not the fool, the fool isn't important at night for mafia for most of the game.

Also that doesn't mean anything Empking, stating those sorts of facts are rather silly alone because you aren't taking the whole setup into perspective. I'm sort of hoping for unbiased answers in that things people notice without seeing all my notes. But I guess I'll post my notes once no one else wants to comment on the setup.

[Junpei]

Well Hoopla, first I want to say happy birthday, and thank you for taking time to discuss this with me.

Secondly, oddwise yes the death rate is equivalence to improved odds. However vigilante will only target you if town thinks you're a fool. Mafia will only target you if mafia thinks you're a town PR. The trick is to appear neither a threat to the mafia or a fool, and then appear as scum during the day.

Thirdly if you get to use soccer as an analogy then I'll use football. In overtime in football if you score a touchdown, you win the game. If you fail to then you flip it over to the other team and if they score a touchdown they win, if not then flip it to you, etc. BUT, these analogies are terrible as it implies 1 on 1 action.

[Junpei]

Hider also dies when visiting fools, I thought that was standard, the other person responsible for this setup, maxwell, introduced this role to me.

Neighborizer would be very interesting I think due to something called "fool paranoia" as it adds another layer of scumhunting, possible gambits, and would be really fun. Doctor protects the vigilante, yes? Doctor protects town PRs yes?

Well the math is a bit obvious isn't it? The chances of getting lynched WILL be better based on the chance of death. However scumhunting is a major factor in this so I think that it isn't an issue at all despite the small advantage.

[Junpei]

Sigh, empking.

THESE ARE NOT REGULAR FOOLS

They have different MOTIVATION than REGULAR FOOLS because there are only certain days that they want to be lynched.

pedit: Town doesn't randomly throw a dart and lynch someone. At some point you have to stop going off the odds and factor skill into the equation.

[Junpei]

Empking.

It is not a minor change it is a major change. Fools have half as many days give or take 1 day to get lynched. The motivation for fools has completely changed from "be scummy and get lynched" to "be scummy in such a way that you are lynched on your certain days" which requires much more skill.

Factor in the skill of the players in that don't assume that if the setup isn't exactly balanced (an arbitrary term when it gets close) that 1 side is going to get greatly hurt by the disadvantage. COUGH COUGH HYDRA DEBATE COUGH COUGH. The disadvantage is slight and a strong fool will fool town (pun intended).

[Junpei]

So empking you think it is optimal fool play to lurk on days when he doesn't want to be lynched and then go all out on days he does?

Yes that won't be obvious no sir.

Shadowmod I will try to crunch numbers eventually perhaps tomorrow but more likely a few days from now.

I hadn't considered doc on hider combo, but what's the point of it? Hider dies if he visits mafia/fool, he doesn't get a report.

[Junpei]

So empking you think it is optimal fool play to lurk on days when he doesn't want to be lynched and then go all out on days he does?

Yes that won't be obvious no sir.

If you weren't being sarcastic this would be a good post.

I only want help in balancing this setup to the furthest degree possible. I admit my sarcasm was a bit childish, although I was getting slightly agitated with you pointing out facts that were fine in perspective of the set-up. My apologies, I shouldn't expect you to know as much about the setup as I.

[Junpei]

Are you asking for arbitrary numbers or arbitrary words? Because as stated I have no math completed at this point.

I take it you agree there are no gamebreaking strategies, then. I can check that off of my list.

I honestly think that it is very dependent on the ability of the players. And I know this may sound like me going "my setup is fine with the right people gosh, u guys dont get it!" but this isn't a regular setup. This is a jester setup and in jester setups you have a faction (in this case two) who are completely reliant on obscuring the other factions' view of the truth to win. They have no kill or abilities to speak of, they simply need to prevent others from seeing who is really mafia/fools. And that is very reliant on personal skill. And since the setup is built around the fools, everything from that stems from the personal skill of the other players to see through everything.

[Junpei]

Are you asking for arbitrary numbers or arbitrary words? Because as stated I have no math completed at this point.

Arbitary numbers.

Uh, 40% town, 30% mafia 15% for each fool give or take?

I would want to crunch the numbers before saying anything with confidence though.

[Junpei]

@Empking - Do you think it's too town sided or too jester sided? Also do you think addition of rolecop instead of goon would balance up the setup?

Town sided and no. 2:2:12 is just insurmountable odds in anything but mountainous.

2:1:1:12

[Junpei]

I have been number crunching, might be a few days at least before I have numbers crunched for everything (so many possibilities D: and I can't even factor in claims, I can only make a separate section in which I assume claims on certain days which I might only do for day 1 since it'll take forever unless it is important to you guys) BUT, I have concluded that there is actually an advantage gained for waiting the next day. In other words.

the gain in chance to get lynched is greater (however only slightly) than the chance to die inbetween each day that the fool can win

.

Food for thought. If you have any other tid bits in specific you want to know, ask, and I'll try to get to it individually.

[Junpei]

Empking that is a poor scenario choice.

Try crunching the numbers for my setup and you'll notice the fun fact that I pointed out.

[Junpei]

Yes, I do think that if the day reaches day 3 that it is more likely for the odd day jester to be lynched then rather than day 1, the numbers speak for themselves. My setup is much larger, and allows for more data to be calculated in. If you have a point to make about the comparison of the two setups then make it, but I did the numbers for fools' odds and it says that the chance of death is outweighed by the increase in chance to win the game that day.

I think it is possible for the odd day fool to win day 1 although very unlikely.

[Junpei]

So you think that none of the PRs will be CCd?

[Junpei]

Mass claim won't happen for 1 simple reason.

Doc will die at night, vigilante will get RB'd, and the PRs will get picked off by the mafia alone. Or maybe even RB doc kill vigilante.

Doc = won't get CC'd likely
Neighborizer = won't get CC'd in most situations day 1
Hider = could get CC'd, haven't done a lot of thought on this possibility
Vigilante = likely to get CC'd by mafia depending on who it is.

Actually, any of these roles could be CC'd in reality by either team if vigilante is out because mafia RB's vigilante and mafia and fools can cc under the fear of "what if he's the on-day fool?" which comes down to scum hunting moving forward. If mafia sees that a fool has cc'd a PR, he won't kill him at night because as you stated mafia are in a hard spot, and will gladly take the fools' help in agitating town and RB the claimed vigilante.

Really PRs getting CC'd is not unlikely at all which will stall any sort of early claiming strategy from town. I suppose your next argument would be "what if all roles except for vigilante claim?". Well then town loses 3 PRs and while the odds of hitting fools and mafia go up, the town gimp themselves more than I'd think they'd allow.

[Junpei]

well actually

CC by fool.
Lynch someone else for the time being. Mafia RBs Vigilante. Sooner or later consider lynching a vigilante claim as mafia gambit. Win.

CC by mafia.
Lynch someone else for the time being. Mafia RBs Vigilante. Mafia gambit may pay off.

[Junpei]

Hmm.. I'm mafia and fool has just cc'd vigilante.

I can

1) Let fool die

2) RB vigilante and keep fool alive, thus keeping the town occupied with the fool (whom I now know is a fool) while I peck at their intestines and kill their PRs. At any point I may decide to kill the fool and keep RBing the vigilante if I worry he will get lynched. Or (if we add rolecop 1 shot on the nilla) I could rolecop the fool to learn his specific days so I can try to screw him into a no-win situation.

[Junpei]

Oh, also if you think that

>someone ccs vig

>vig is roleblocked

>lynch the cc that is mafia

is realistic then I think you're forgetting that fools can get helped out with a RB too for reasons stated.

[Junpei]

Junpei: Mafia do not want the jesters to win. They lose if that happens. They don't want to lose. They want to win!

Empking: Mafia do not want town to win. They lose if that happens. They must weigh the risk of jesters (when you know at least 1, and when you know his identity it makes it easier to discern which day they want to be lynched) against the risk of other town PRs. I think the decision is easy, as town not knowing who their vigilante is and being afraid to lynch them because of fools is a big blow to town.

[Junpei]

1/2 x 1/2 chance (2 fools) = 25% chance to lose from a mafia standpoint. Also why would town lynch a vigil claim when they could just hunt the mafia RB and then use the vig to kill the cc instead. Unless you're saying that the vigilante cc is the RB. So yes I see why they might decide to lynch the CC. However I think it'd be beneficial to just hunt the other mafia (nilla) in that situation and then if after he's dead either vigil will have a shot or RB will not be able to kill.

[Junpei]

Shotty: I can't judge without knowing what ability. I'd reccomend an investigative role. I'd reccomend even further some sort of Vanilla Town Cop.

Junpei: What about 2 fools?
They lynch the Vig claims because that stops the mafia from roleblocking (which only has a 50% chance of working by the by (two claimants)) which stops the fools from claiming.

I don't get it. Are you saying that a 25% chance to lose on one day is not bad?

Also >roleblock right and learn 2 overall roles. roleblock wrong and kill/RB vigilante from now on. Worth it when you consider the other options are doctor RB (long shot), neighborizer RB (might not even be something you want to do) and hider RB (who you don't even know is doing anything that night).

[Junpei]

25% is the chance that town lynching a vigil claim results in a town loss.

Why do you assume that keeping fool alive is so bad? Why do you assume town will lynch between the vigil claims? Why do you assume that mafia will throw a shot at the jester cc?

[Junpei]

No, they won't. The town will just have to decide if they are willing to lose the vigilante for a possible fool. No the optimal situation is to hunt till you kill 1 mafia. Then the roleblocks will have to stop and vigil can kill his cc.

[Junpei]

No one yes.

Except for the fool whose day to be lynched is the next day.

[Junpei]

No one yes.

Except for the fool whose day to be lynched is the next day.

No because the Vig will kill them.

No because mafia will RB them.

See how this conversation is going? We can't assume what people will do like this. It is purely based on player preference.

[Junpei]

2 shot even day doctor/rolecop? huh? Jesters on the same side interest me some though, if one dies then I don't like the both dying thing. But I also don't like the both winning after one lynch thing. I just don't think that a two jester team will work well at all.

[Junpei]

Maybe a Jester team who wins if both of them are lynched and ends the game?

Overall Jester shouldn't be used IMO.

That'd be terrible win con.

And jesters are great, the setup I'm creating in part will prove that.

[Junpei]

But it more dilutes their chances of mislynching town.

Uh no it doesn't? Fools get in the way of scumhunting and basically just sit there. Mafia wont touch em, nor will town. So fools WILL claim day 1.

[Junpei]

Ok the jesters win separately, but are lovers.

What motivation is there to use the lovers chat?

[Junpei]

Ok the jesters win separately, but are lovers.

What motivation is there to use the lovers chat?

For fun?

So in other words it'll get no use. I do not see how that setup is an improvement from the other setup.

[Junpei]

Ok the jesters win separately, but are lovers.

What motivation is there to use the lovers chat?

For fun?

So in other words it'll get no use. I do not see how that setup is an improvement from the other setup.

It's not broken...

How is mine broken?

[Junpei]

.........

Empking's scenario doesn't make sense to me. It relies on mafia and fool misguessing each other.

[Junpei]

New breaking strategy for Junpei's setup;

Town elects to no-lynch during the day and use the Vigilante as the lynching mechanic, with the town voting on who the vig should kill. This produces the effect of it being a normal 2:13 setup, which strongly favours the town. Once a fool has been vigged/mafia killed, the town can now lynch on those days they can't lose. There is a chance the vig can die before one of the fools, but it's only a 1/3 chance - less if you include the possibility of a vig and a fool dying on the same night. The chances for the vig dying first outright is low enough to make it a viable strategy in most games, and well worth trying.

Good point, I'll have to sleep on that though as I'm getting tired.

[Junpei]

Hoopla, I have an idea. What if we added a town role like bomb or something that would be very bad for town if hit by vigilante? Maybe there's a better role than bomb to use, but if there is reason to not want to shoot randomly at night. Something that would be better off being lynched. I'll browse the wiki a bit but if you guys know any odd roles that fit this quota and think this would work lemme know.

[Junpei]

Yeah, that's true. What if we had a bomb and 1 other unfavorable role to target at night? Then it may be that we have the two roles claim "I am bomb/[insert other role here]!"and if there are more than 2 than we know 1 is fool/mafia. But then you avoid those altogether. But if one were something mafia DID want to kill, but not town... well that'd keep them in their anonymous 1 of 2 role claim state. So I don't think that'd solve the problem.

What if we made that vig even night? No that would just gimp the fool that was on the day before the vigs' nights.

Nexus or

Beloved Princess

might have a place in this setup, are all roles allowed in Open setups? This will require some thought.

Maybe a 3 mason group to start with 1 VT 1 mafia and 1 of (even day, odd day fool, random townie)

?

This is an interesting problem...

[Junpei]

@Junpei: What if you focussed more on the whole even-oddness issue, Adding an odd-even killing mafia team, odd/even night PRs and an invstigative role that can detect odd/eveness of a player...
What about making the jesters a team/lover pair? There is a fundamental problem with having too many independent game ending wincons in a game which is that no matter what alignment a player gets his chances of winning are vastly diminished, doesn't really help one's motivation to feel screwed from the get-go.

I don't know how I feel about a jester lover/team pair. I feel like independence is what the role Jester is all about. I will consider your odd/even theme-ing as a possible solution though.

[Junpei]

Fleshing out my fool setup again; felt that vigilante is out of place as one of my goals in making odd/even was to give town a more natural method of getting around the fool and killing it. Also wanted to clean up the setup a bit.

8 vt
1 doc
1 mad scientist (compares alignment of two players; same/different, no two players twice in game; shamelessly stolen from PrimeIntellect. Fools appear as SAME, night role)
1 neighborizer (1 per day, 1 per night)
1 mafia roleblocker
1 nilla mafia
1 odd day fool (wants to be lynched on an odd day)
1 even day fool (wants to be lynched on an even day)

Open setup
Day start
Fools win on lynch of respective day

VT count subject to change in the future.

Already proved a few months ago that the odd fool does in fact not have an advantage over the even day fool. Statistics have shown it to be quite even. Just wanted to shoot that down quickly as it is a common complaint.

Any suggestions? I've been bouncing ideas off myself in spare time, and this one seems to be pretty good to me.

[Junpei]

The Mad Scientist may only compare living players at the time of selection.

The game ends when the fools reaches his win condition, yes.

Izak, that role has been used in other forum mafia games before very well, and although I don't have his brilliance to use it the same, I hardly see the role as OP. If you would like to explain HOW it is OP, then that's another story

[Junpei]

No it doesn't...

And lets say he investigates person A and B, they're different.

Oh, A is dead and flipped town? Well B is either fool or mafia... hm time to scumhunt and figure out which.

Oh, A is dead and flipped mafia? Well B better hope that Scientist either doesn't out or is forced to CC him. Thing is as soon as scientist outs he becomes a lot less useful and can be roleblocked. The neighborhood in theory should bring much fun to this concept. I don't see any broken happenings/strategies.

[Junpei]

Well B would only hope that if B is fool, which is what I meant. I could do tons of theorizing on the setup, but I see no reason to dissect every possibility when it seems quite sound. Although I wouldn't be surprised if I missed something, I specifically made this setup with the idea in mind of no absolutes + fools the former of which should prevent gamebreaking strategy, and the latter of which should bring my favorite role into the site outside of Paris (a setup I really don't like).

[Junpei]

Oh, well then yeah. But I think the reason PrimeIntellect made it so that the role could not target dead people was for that purpose. I mean, that isn't the role for a good reason.

[Junpei]

Oh, I was thinking like there are three planes of alignment

Mafia
Fool
Village

So investigating mafia and fool yields different. Do you think that's a bad idea?

[Junpei]

Oh, that is an idea as well. I actually like that idea a lot. But then it just seems like the role is mostly useless. I feel like putting the Fools on a different plane makes the role more useful and adds more uncertainty. The only unfavorable happening that arises is when mafia and fool are compared, shown different, and then mafia dies. But this is very unlikely, and can be amended with a fool counterclaim. In fact fools may claim this for all the people in the setup know.

I feel like the fact that there are 3 town PRs and effectively 4 people who have some incentive to claim town PR who aren't town balances the extra strength given there, so I find your gimp of it a bit overdone, I guess.

I wasn't very specific in what I meant, so I apologize.

[Junpei]

Quilford, I know that it may seem odd, a fool winning the game, but no, this is how it must be.

Fool wins are the most glorious wins in mafia in my opinion, and an odd/even fool win? It takes real skill to pull it off, and the setup paranoia makes it possible.

Yeah towns' day play is injured, but I mean scum get a RB and that's really it, this is a +14 player game with 2 scum, the fools have a place in it.

Izak pretty much expresses my main point; the odd/even mechanic makes the setup very possible and it is not a band-aid fix, although I'm not sure what a 'burst man' is. Quilford, this isn't a 10-3 balanced PR game with a fool thrown in for lulz, this is a setup that was built around the fools. I designed it such that the fools disadvantage to town would be in place, and that the fools would have a hard yet very possible time to win.

[Junpei]

Fool wins are the

least

glorious wins in mafia in my opinion

Fixed!

I meant fool

wins

, not fool exits with wins(almost the only existence of fools on this site, which is a lame band-aid fix for the role). It will take a lot of skill to win as fool in this setup, and the majority of the time I think that the players will feel like he deserved it.

[Junpei]

Yeah, I've just been doing a ton of work for a lot of my classes the past 24 hours, and accidentally used HTML code, I'll edit it though.

[Junpei]

does lyncher know who the jester is?

I like the premise of this setup a lot, by the way.

[Junpei]

2v2v6?

So.. basically 1 cycle and the game is practically over? Well lets see...
Lynch + veng + mafia kill + dayvig = game over which could happen in one cycle. So.. do vengfuls have to shoot? Because I wouldn't, and if I'm the lyncher I'm shooting up immediately so that town can't use a vengkill without losing. And I'm aiming for town so that the village is under more stress day 2 so that my fool can ride to victory a bit easier.

So... 7, 9 vengefuls make more sense to me.. but I'm not sure how balanced it is even then. Jester doesn't really need to know who lyncher is to get the job done, he just needs to look like scum, but not to where they'll vengekill him.

7..
2v2v8
Eh.. that's not enough because then you get 2v2v4, so you get instant mylo after a single cycle of mislynches.

9..
2v2v10
2v2v6
2v2v3
I think 9 vengefuls makes sense in this setup the most, but I'm not sure if the fool works as well in this setup. I'll have to think about it.

[Junpei]

People just don't like Jesters on a fundamental level I think.

Also Lyncher has no reason to shoot mafia because if mafia die then gg for you.

So, Lyncher is going to shoot the first person they think is town. I just feel like you're giving town the tools to find the faction that they don't need to eliminate to win. And you're giving lyncher/jester abilities that they might not really need, whereas mafia may do good to have a rolecop or something like that.

pedit: Yeah BBmolla, I was just sayin, I don't know what is truly balanced in regards to how quickly LYLO comes in certain setups, but I personally would be annoyed as fool with just two shots to do it when it is likely that you have the scenario where..

3 potential kills and only 1 is desired for fool. Makes it hard.

The town 3p cop just says: "this guy is 3p, dont ever lynch him or use vengekill on him, it's not worth wasting our lynch on him when d2 is lylo or worse" which = fool instant loss. Otherwise he's useless. Also vengekills are meaningless if you can't use them, and in the setup you showed, if town mislynches and hits a vengekiller, then they cannot shot the vengeshot because why would you risk losing there instead of getting another day?

[Junpei]

BP fool? So you have to vengekill it? I don't like that, as it forces village to burn two resources on the fool. Remember that mafia want to kill village, as that is the quickest way to victory in a 2v2v2 mindset.

In my opinion, you should get rid of direct investigation roles. When I was designing my fool setup, I realized that the role was either useless or overpowered, so I compromised to find a weaker yet still prominent PR in the Mad Scientist. Honestly other than that role I don't know what you could place, it took me weeks to come up with the idea to steal PrimeIntellect's role.

Otherwise, you could go no investigative PRs, and say X amount of vengefuls, fool, lyncher, mafia rolecop, nilla mafia?

That to me is a decent enough idea. But hm.. I feel like it would be good to have 1 town role where it doesn't get a veng kill. So perhaps a 1-shot rolecop? If you are going with this setup though, it has to be pretty small. So maybe 2v2v5, which is a 9p game. Kind of my raw ideas, but maybe it helps you.

[Junpei]

Maybe EM Jailkeeper where you keep someone from their night QT?

[Junpei]

I'd say 7,5 VT, maybe even 3.

I don't know, it seems like it is very swingy in the sense that before the GF dies, the cop is useless, and then afterward it is very very powerful. Times that by 2, factor in that SK has no incentive to CC, makes a very swingy setup in my opinion.

But that's just me.

[Junpei]

No son, that is wrong, it's just not the way things are done.

I believe that that is a direct quote from every movie about an amazing person with a great idea (me or BBmolla) who has to fight against the harsh and brutally portrayed society (you) for acceptance.

[Junpei]

So, why don't they work?

Because, Izak, they 'aren't fun'. Just like how I think normals aren't fun, so people should stop making normals.

[Junpei]

That reference is going way over my head, so I'm guessing you're talking to Izak, so could one of you tell me what it means?

[Junpei]

I think I can make a balanced fool setup for sure, but how do I measure fun?

On a scale of 1-100, how fun are these fool setups?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p3534722
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p3530922
What about Paris?

How about the average Open setup that people mod?

[Junpei]

So what you're saying is...

- Better players/moderators have tried what I tried and failed p
- So, I will fail q

p is not related to the outcome q in any tangible sense, so I don't believe your statement to be true. I think that creating a strong fool setup is a matter of inspiration, and finding that good idea. I "cntrl+F" all Open setup discussion threads I could find for 'fool' and 'jester', and I found very little. And what I did find were mostly joke setups. I think I can do it, sure, and I think that if you put your mind to it you could too if you got the right idea going.

Yes okay Paris fills fast, ergo it is fun. But before Paris ran how did you know it was fun enough to put in the queue? Stands to reason that the only way to know is to put it to the test. So, when making the setup, we can only factor in balance. I can look at the setup and see if it is overly not fun (follow the PR isn't fun to me), but for the most part, I just have to go with what I think is a balanced and flexible enough setup.

Besides, I hardly think that a fool setup that gets by the Open Review Squad won't fill if you advertise it right, seeing as you guys are very against the idea of a fool. What gets by the review squad? Balance. If the game is balanced and not blatantly unfun, then it will fill as a fool game, and it will run, and we'll have actually results to determine if you were right all along.

So basically, I don't see how you expect me to factor in 'fun' while making a setup at all.

[Junpei]

Here's the thing though, there is no bar, no specific goal to reach other than the arbitrary symbol of balance which one is embedded with when the counsel of holy deems one worthy.

I'm not complaining, it's just that look: I got Paris Mafia which is in my opinion is not a great setup at all, I don't know why it is popular (perhaps that's another flaw I have), but most importantly it is hardly a fool setup. Yes it utilizes a variation, but he is being supported by 3 other people, and that doesn't seem to me like "guy with hidden agenda which is difficult to complete". It is sort of its own complete thing.

But other than that, there is nothing to go on for fool setups. As I said, the first thing I did after initially failing to make a solid fool setup was check every thread that I thought could help me, and in the end all I found were others failing in the exact same manner I was, or making some joke party setup. Basically, I don't think that there have been enough attempts at making a fool setup to deem it ridiculous.

So, when you have time please review Whisker/BBmolla's setup. I'd ask you to look at mine, but I'd rather you look at theirs as it is closer to Paris Mafia which you are familiar and fine with (sorta), and will help me regardless.

[Junpei]

I don't know, I wasn't really concerned with the size of my game that much, just the balance but I'll look at what you wrote. The thing is that Hoopla is about to post "mafia is informed minority versus uninformed majority" and then that'll be that.

But.. independent of that.. It's a fool/SK/Neighbor?? What is a neighbor?

Also consider VTs just keep getting lynched, then fool/SKs outnumber town, who wins then?

[Junpei]

Yeah that may work, but I liked the idea of having a neighborizer at least for town.

Actually wait, are you putting the fools on the same team?

[Junpei]

Because what could they possibly have to talk about?

[Junpei]

Nah, that won't happen Whiskers. The fools have to deceive town and mafia. They won't be so blantant when they have to be lynched on a specific day.

People think that... well I'm not sure. I think I fixed the issue of fools just acting uber scummy like what you described by binding them to certain days.

I think I like my setup more than the one you edited, gives town more stability I think than just the scientist.

[Junpei]

Well even in an open setup, if someone acts extremely scummy, or even completely useless it creates this atmosphere of "ugh, probably fool... sigh." but is also potentially scum. It's just an awful wifom of nothing to go on.

[Junpei]

That's interesting... and then we remember the stalemate that occurs with 2 mafia and 1 town left. Town can't kill themselves, it just makes no sense whatsoever lol. I mean how can you lynch a townie everyday and hope to win when the opponent is trying to lynch themselves too?

Maybe you're looking at this from another angle, but I don't know, I don't see how it's mechanically possible.

[Junpei]

2 maf 1 town

maf lynches correct maf
maf Night kills town
maf lynches correct maf

gg mafia wins

How does town win?

[Junpei]

Sounds like Paris. I don't know, I like the idea of Mafia v Fool v Town. That's one of the reasons I didn't like Paris.

[Junpei]

What I have on my list of what I've done so far is:

1) Given the fool a restriction such that it is no longer so overpowered

2) Given town a way to detect both factions that oppose them

3) Given mafia a way to counteract town detection

4) Given town a secret-clear in neighborizer that could be used many ways

I don't know if there was a better way to execute these or not; I'd like to keep my solution to number if possible, but I feel like I've done what I wanted to do finally.

[Junpei]

Fools have a stable living environment already. With no vigilante they are a little bit more at ease so to speak. Really this is where I'm a bit lost, I'm not sure what I'm aspiring to. I think that everyone in this game has a stable way to push their factions' victory without anything too swingy.

Fools don't need any abilities in my opinion because

1) I'd have to give it to both fools

2) They have no PRs that they need to distract, and no one to otherwise discover like the town/mafia do. Their only goal is to be lynched on day X, and I can't think of a fair ability to make that more accessible, and I don't know if it needs to be more accessible.

[Junpei]

True...

But the only way a fool could get cleared is if MS detects a mafia with a village, and the mafia is lynched. But then he wouldn't out an inno, rather he would wait until the last possible juncture to claim, and likely by that time it becomes practical for the fool to CC if he hasn't won.

[Junpei]

Well I'll address your post in full later, but why would mafia kill the MSci again when it is CC'd by fool? To... eliminate the confusion?

[Junpei]

Town day doc seems very odd, but very good name. Why is there a town day doc?

Whiskers, while it is possible to out mafia with Msci, it is hard to do so, but I can see the possible trade-off, it could go both ways, but I don't really like that way. I need to figure out how likely it is though. I just don't think the odds of Fool-Mafia > Mafia death > Out report seems likely as percentage wise. And I also don't think that it is toxic to the gamestate.

Also, if fool cc Msci.. Mafia RB one, and if it claims no report, they know its real, and who to push a lynch on. Otherwise, they know it's fool, and who to push a lynch on. So no kills needed.

[Junpei]

Oh, and also: Town would have to decide if it really is a fool gambit or a mafia ploy from scumhunting in past days. With 8 vts, it's 11v2v2, which is 4 days prior, but I think that 6 VTs is better, making 3 days prior assuming they lynched townies.

edit: As for showing as no report, then if one dies, the Msci essentially has a fool report on someone, which increases the odds of this, and probably not good. Although it'd be funny if 2 fools were investigated and one dies, I don't really know if that is the solution, but eh. Thinking about it some more, maybe it is a good idea, but then the Msci becomes a lot less useful.

[Junpei]

So then, every time there's a different alignment, there is 1 guilty for sure in the two. So I guess it makes it more useful perhaps?

6 VTs
1 town neighborizer (night/day)
1 town Mad Scientist (compares 2 players, same/different alignment report, if picks fool gets "no report")
1 town doctor
1 mafia RB
1 vanilla mafia
1 odd day fool
1 even day fool

Hm.. maybe we should get rid of doctor as well..

Whiskers, imo any game that ends in mafiavfoolvtown doesn't need a vig shot. Thing is, person with the shot is confirmed town. And you obviously aren't giving mafia an NK so...

[Junpei]

Well before you could get a different alignment report with a fool and a town.

I was just thinking once the Msci is cleared, you could doc him, and town could gather too many clears to the finish, but after more thought, that isn't an issue at all, and the fools remove any possible doubt of that. So I agree, keep the doc, I put it in there to make Neighborizer less vulnerable/MSci less. I would expect a lot of cool things to possibly happen in the neighborizer QT.

Back up RB makes sense, and I think that mafia should be able to submit a factional kill and an ability in the same night. If we go with your idea (and it looks like we are) then a mafia RB needs to be constant.

Hm.. I think that this is good..

6 Vt
1 MSci
1 doc
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia rb
1 b-up mafia rb

I will have to do some thinking on balance issues/broken strategies/optimal strategies to make sure that we are in a good place here, I like the chances we've made though.

[Junpei]

Quilford it'd be impossible to balance that I think well because the bigger it is the harder it is for fool. And fools' victory isn't really in his hands so much it is with the other two factions.

Whiskers, they'd also have day talk, and it only confirms one person. But it is a trade off because mafia could find out, or fool could claim in the neighborhood, claim Msci for example, and mess with town. Mafia could too. Or perhaps claim doctor, or maybe neighborizer dies and there's 2 people left and etc... I really like having it in the game.

[Junpei]

Why do that? The fools have even chances of winning, statistically speaking. Is there a problem that you think is resolved from that move?

[Junpei]

Well 1 fools that is odd/even seems.. I don't know it just doesn't seem as secure as two fools with odd/even.

What I'm saying is I like that town has to be wary both days, I'd rather not it be "50% chance x 1/12... almost .04 chance of lynching fool" and then you hardly worry. But when there are fools fooling every day, the paranoia sets in, or at least, you are much more on the look out, which creates a good environment for mafia, which is why there is just two.

[Junpei]

No he can't, he has to mod a stock setup picked by Hoopla his first time through the queue.

[Junpei]

Izak that looks really boring. And yes EV will tell you that it is balanced, but if you factor in scumhunting, giving the town two consecutive shots wherein 1 hit is the game at lylo is not balanced.

[Junpei]

Animor, I would have to believe that Whiskers was merely joking, and I'm sure did not mean to cause you all the trouble they clearly have. Animor what is your favorite role, and we'll ask Whiskers to make a setup for you with it included, as a way to make friends.

[Junpei]

...Mafia could just force an NL by never voting...

[Junpei]

Where did that night kill come from?

[Junpei]

Jesters belong in Bastard games, and nowhere else.

You'll be eating your words soon enough.

enomis the problem with your setup is that town will never lynch; they'll just have their vig shoot people at night in proxy of the action of lynching. So fool can never really win until vig dies. The thing is though that with 2 dayshots and 2 night shots, fool will have such a slim margin of victory if at all due to vig-lynching.

So; we can conclude that open setups with vigs and fools do not work well. Dayvig is an interesting concept, but I don't think that even if you took away the vig that you would help the fools wincon enough with the dayvigs. I think that you should at least get rid of the town dayvig.

Also normal cops generally don't work with fool setups because cop inno on fool and the fool just lost the game. Mafia live and die with the 'hooker' (that's a roleblocker, right?).

Fool lynches should always end the game; deviation from that rule will not produce pleasant results almost always.

[Junpei]

When a doctor is in the game, you can have day starts with even numbers. Besides; all games really should be day start.

As for the setup.. the miller just stands to waste a lynch, I mean how can town not lynch a confirmed cop guilty? with 2 MLs (possibly 3 if doc saves), the cop can really only be guaranteed 2 reports before LYLO; and if it's a guilty well then the miller makes it frustrating and a useless report; as unless the subject claims a PR, the report really has accomplished nothing. You'll never get the RB to claim a PR, so there really is no upside to a cop report. Innos are worthless as there is a GF.

There is no mechanic in that game that reliably can help town catch scum, and mafia have THREE methods to counter it.

[Junpei]

The point of the setup is to scumhunt, not to rely on the cop for finding scum.

I see that you're under the epicmafia illusion.

Just because setups with good PRs in EM are all awful setups where you basically sit on your mom and wait for the clears and 50/50s to decide something, doesn't mean that setups with no good PRs is a great scumhunting setup. That is something you learn when you play on epicmafia and have all the bad night start setups and the bad PR-heavy setups.


enomis, your setup is really weird because of all the lynch-immune people. First off, if so many town and a mafia are lynch immune, you have so many back-ups that it's crazy, and basically this looks like a mass claim is the best option. I can't think of a claiming pattern for mafia that is good; so town should mass claim day 1, right?

[Junpei]

wait.

mafia dont have to have majority?

[Junpei]

that could be a good closed game with some work I think; but probably not such a good open.

[Junpei]

I know, sorry. That was mean and I shouldn't have posted it.

???

Trevor: town have no reliable source of information. With only 1 night before lylo, watcher and cop really aren't of use at all with the PR-uncertainty. In fact, I'd say town is best off mass claiming day 1, as they are assured protection and 1 clear for lylo.

Tell me why town should not mass claim day 1.

[Junpei]

Trevor, this isn't epicmafia; I will never play a setup whose optimal strategy is to mass claim day 1 and lynch CCs. That is just boring.

[Junpei]

If you care about your setup: do the following:

1) make a list of all possible setup permutations

2) assume day 1 mass claim

3) determine all the different possible claiming patterns mafia have

4) determine optimal town play going forward for each claiming pattern in each instance.

If you come back and post the results and they don't signal a bad/broken setup; then I'll take it seriously, but my intuition (albeit it isn't great, but I would hope it isn't that bad) is screaming that this setup is a "Lame-Mass-Claim-CC-Game"

(copyright)

[Junpei]

huh. no...

2v5 mountainous is unbalanced... and it's just extremely boring, but you aren't even factoring in possible reports. If there's a watcher and a cop, mafia has lost the game if they don't claim. So with this method, you simply go "OKAY COP CLAIM GO", and then if mafia don't CC or claim (lol) then they get to go 50/50 with whether there's a watcher and they lose the game, or if there's a doc and they have a balanced chance at winning. Yeah, they are claiming cop or watcher every time. Also, town scumhunting + mass claim = what exactly? You seem to think that we here at MS roll dice after a mass claim.

Town will always mass claim day 1
Town will always ask cop to claim first
Mafia will always cc cop
Either there are cop ccs, and the last PR claims freely or
-- --- There are no cop ccs, and we get a (2of3) pr town. In which case you go Watcher on cop, doc on watcher. Mafia really have to kill a PR, and that helps figure things out. There is no better strategy.
Lynch scummiest VT
If town, oh well, you found something out from the PR scandals and you go from there, certainly will have either a guilty report, cop CCs, or a RB watch. If that isn't enough to find scum, then I don't know what is.
If scum, congrats, you just won the game as there is nothing scum can have done, as town will know that mafia almost certainly claimed cop because of what I described earlier.

Doesn't seem that interesting, seems too dictated by claims.

[Junpei]

Pssst Trevor, I already broke your setup; stop saying scumhunt, we are well aware of scumhunting, that isn't the issue. The issue is that claiming patterns make it such that the game will go in a very linear fashion, with a very good chance for town to win; despite your RNG mass claim math job.

Also, I have played at EM enough to say that it is full of bad play; so if you won't accept Izak's testimony, you'll accept mine. This has nothing to do with epicmafia though; so stop bringing it up, your setup is broken, I'm sorry.

[Junpei]

He could just make an open game; add lame theme, and call it a themed game.

Maybe there should be a private queue for more experimental games for the sake of setup testing. I don't know if it would work or not, though; I'm sure Hoopla, Papa Zito and the others have thought about it before and have notes on the idea though.

[Junpei]

But then scum would instantly die as everyone hurt them.

There should be a queue where a mod posts saying "I have an experimental game I'd like to test out; PM for details, here are the very basics", and then once it fills, it gets permission to run in, I don't know, the Open Forum. Of course, there'd be a queue-mod to make sure it is a) experimental enough b) within the realm of possibilities of being balanced. We'd need a pretty dedicated mod for that queue.

[Junpei]

I don't think I'd be good at any important position, I don't know enough, haven't seen enough. I'm not sure who I would nominate, I don't know anyone who I think would probably say yes that have been on the site for a year.

[Junpei]

I'm not an alt... and I really am not as good at this stuff as you guys think; I only have 2 setups I'm working on (the only ones I have worked on), and there isn't anything that difficult that I ever comment on that comes through this thread. For instance, if I tried to do what Hoopla is doing, I'd fail almost certainly.

[Junpei]

20? Wow. Have you worked them all out? The way I think is easiest to come up with ideas is to decide what it is you are trying to do (I'm trying to insert a fool, or I'm trying to insert this mechanic) and make something fun that fits that.

But I am just good at making it look like I know what I'm doing; regardless of if I do or not. That's a trait that has caught me a lot of breaks in real life.

[Junpei]

Delphi

3x Mafia Goons

4x Oracles
7x Vanilla Townies

-Each Oracle picks a person each night. If that oracle dies that night and they chose a town-aligned player, then the player that they chose becomes mod confirmed town. However, if the oracle is lynched, or they chose a scum-aligned player, then no such confirmation occurs.
-Scum have a factional nightkill, which also reports the role of the killed player to the scum QT.
-Night Kills do not flip.[/area]

Any better? Slightly edited to account for everything. Maybe the number of oracles needs tweaking?

Day 1:
Mass claim.

Why is this not the best option? This would either force mafia to kill an oracle or two or force mafia to CC oracle, in which case it becomes 7v2 + 4v1. It's pretty much monotonous, and 10v3 monotonous is balanced yes?

[Junpei]

Day 2 farseer claims are meaningless.. day 1 farseer is meaningless...

This is 9v2 with no reveal is all. I don't know if 9v2 mountainous is balanced or not, but with no reveal I'm sure it's not.

[Junpei]

Day 1 farseer has no information, and so all his claim does is give you a day 1 confirmed town.

Day 2 with a night kill (the day 1 lynch will claim VT if it's a VT and claim farseer if scum) a farseer claim is impossible to trust because the night kill could be the real farseer.

[Junpei]

Well what do you want exactly? A no reveal setup wherein there's a farseer and a mafia who gets the flips? What pieces do you want to retain?

[Junpei]

Well if that's it then we can tear it up some.

First get rid of farseer because in its current capacity it is useless.

Maybe replace it with a town rolecop who can also target dead people?

If we do that then give the mafia a godfather who appears as VT.

Now we have to make it so that the rolecop claiming day 1 is not the optimal play. So lets add a mechanic which will tell town if the rolecop is alive or not. When the rolecop is alive, lynches will not flip. So when a lynch does flip, town knows that there's no rolecop. At this point I'd like to hear from people to see if they think that the town rolecop would ever not investigate the lynch or not. I think that they routinely would not investigate the lynch unless they felt it was important for information.

Lets go with 8v2 and add in a town 1-shot BP and RB.

town 1-shot BP
town RB
town rolecop (can target dead people)
5 VT

scum RB
scum GF

Gonna finish watching the basketball game and get back to you but play with this a little; hopefully you see the direction I'm headed and if not then I'll try to articulate myself better later.

[Junpei]

Well the rolecop will know alignment as well. So Scum RB, Town RB are separate reports. And I figured night kills would be no reveal as well. At least that's what I had in mind when you said no reveal. GF being VT after death isn't something I initially thought about; My initial reaction is that even when dead he shows up as VT on reports, but if lynched (after the rolecops' death) will be seen as GF of course.

There's probably a problem somewhere in there. Like the BP probably should claim day 1 and then the RB will know if he hit scum or not because the BP will always claim hit. Yeah.. BP has to go.

Town RB
Town rolecop (can target dead people)
6 VT

scum RB
scum GF

Still looks like there should be an issue. I'll think about it some more, if anyone has any ideas let us know.

[Junpei]

(4) Cop, Odd Night Cop, Godfather
(1) Even Night Cop

(3) Vigilante

(2) Vigilante

BP full time
1-shot kill
Cop immunity

Lots of cops, 3 NKs and no worry of death. And a shot to finish off any certain scenarios. Seems like the best option to me.

[Junpei]

Because then I can't afford (3) Vigilante and grab the cop immunity which is necessary for this. Trading a full vig for a one-shot is silly

Two vigs, 3 mafia, 13p game, cops, NK immunity, cop immunity. Easiest shot an SK will ever have at a win.

[Junpei]

Junpei's setup would suck for groupscum, but I'm not sure if the SK is balanced against the town in it.

The SK is overpowered.

[Junpei]

Seems like the scum are at a distinct disadvantage. They have no means to tell who is an oracle which reveals someone or not, it's just a crapshoot as far as roles go. There's no strategy.

[Junpei]

Other than the fact that that's a lot of confirmed towns flying around, seems to have a similar issue. No point n cornering since theres 2 random oracles though and so that's some information.

I guess I just don't know how I feel about hidden cop roles in the game; seems like a larger counterbalance is needed if that's what you're after. Or some other crafted mechanic.

[Junpei]

No.. that second setup is awful. If only the hammering VT wins then there is ZERO reason to vote at all for town. In fact it makes it impossible to win if you vote first.

First setup is also bad. in 6p lylo town has to lynch MAFIA, not SK, or it's game over. No room for error what so ever.

[Junpei]

1 GF
1 traitor (mafia who can't NK/doesn't know GF vice versa)
2 Vanilla Town
1 miller (not told miller; dies as miller)
1 town cop

Not a competitively viable setup but good for fun perhaps?

[Junpei]

If none of the scum know each other, there are no associative tells, and you don't really have an informed minority.

Epicmafia didn't suffer from the fun factor with that. I don't know though, the setup looked fun to me.

You could just make the traitor a mafia goon and the miller flip as a mafia goon.

[Junpei]

Why would town use that ability?

[Junpei]

4 lynches to get 2 scum. 2/4

I don't know if that's balanced or not.

11v2
9v2
7v2
5v2
3v2
2v1

So that's six lynches to get two scum. So izak is right, there should be seven VTs.

[Junpei]

4 lynches to get 2 scum. 2/4

I don't know if that's balanced or not.

Keep in mind that those lynches aren't 2 or 3 out of 13, but 2 out of at most 7, and 1 out of at most 5.

That's true. So you did the math and got 35/65? That doesn't seem right. How do you do the math, just multiply the percentages and add it up right? On second look, it looks balanced and fair to me, though the EV system is not really saying that.

[Junpei]

1) if it's 2v11, town is better off just playing mountainous and using bp claims to help clear people

2) if it's 3v10, I still think it's safer to play mountainous.

[Junpei]

2v10
2v8 at night
2v6 day2
2v4 at night
GG
Town gets 4 mislynches to the scums' 4 kills + 2 endgame kills

Honestly with that type of setup I'd say that it's going to be inherently townsided with the back to back lynches. 4 mislynches is pretty good, though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced. So yeah I guess it's balanced in my opinion.

[Junpei]

though this isn't far off from 11v2 mountainous which is balanced.

Where did you get this idea..?

Someone told me that 11v2 was balanced and that 10v3 was slightly scum sided, so in 10v3 you need extra town strength.

I guess that's wrong?

[Junpei]

Fonz:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21855
4v4v8 nightless

It isn't open.. but, there it is.

[Junpei]

Why is survivor worse than Serial Killer? Oh yeah, no kill - no problem in my opinion in a small setup. Hidden miller is fine if people understand the 1/6 chance that the given person could be mafia based on the report. Seems cool.

[Junpei]

Oups - 1/5 chance to not be guilty. Sorry!

[Junpei]

Survivor is a terrible role because he can be either an additional townie or an additional mafia and it's completely up to him to decide.

Just like a Serial Killer! Either may be a town vig or a mafia vig.

[Junpei]

so possible 3v6.. you need more town roles sir.

[Junpei]

(Let's face it. A lot of the people who play Open games aren't the best scumhunters out there).

Lets face it: http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... mit=Search
You haven't played an Open in over a year - and of your last 3, two you replaced out of (impressive) and one you have 12 posts in after replacing in and subsequently being lynched. I haven't read any of your recent games or looked at them (I went to look at your threads you've posted in and it seems you chat much more than you play) but I've played some Opens and in my experience they have lots of great players. I'd bet a lot that you are worse than the average Open player as well.

Mason neighbors would, as callforjudgement says, give masons some information. There are times when scumhunting when people use the idea of dead mafia knowing who neighbors are/suspecting someone as mafia in conjunction of being a neighbor which are erroneous - and the mason-neighbors confirm this to themselves. It is SOME information. Not much, but some. You wouldn't know this of course because you don't play games enough to understand the impact of neighborhoods. Instead you pout about things that doesn't matter and shitpost.
[/rant]

[Junpei]

Neighborhoods protowness (I've found) is very dependent on the neighbors and it's too hard to factor it in pregame. I've seen neighborhoods tear town apart and catch mafia (I've done both in neighborhoods in previous games, both times I was town unfortunately - but the point remains, it's too much intangible stuff). I think neighborhoods make the game more interesting though.

Also: I just noticed that the neighborhood has daytalk. That automatically adds even more usefulness to mason-neighborhoods.

[Junpei]

so possible 3v6.. you need more town roles sir.

Hmm... which of these solutions do you prefer:

1) Survivor has to win with town
2) Give the town more power, possibly one-shot vig.

Well 1 obviously makes it a VT, so 2. I'd add 2 town roles. 1 VT and 1... watcher while in the survivor setup? Does that sound right? I mean, mafia will know the setup, so should we let one town role also know the setup half of the time? Watcher is more power definitely, I'll think about if I think it makes sense to have a watcher in the miller setup or not, but I'm not sure. If not, it'd just be a VT in a setup.

[Junpei]

I agree with CFJ; neighbourhoods will almost always favour town massively. Iirc, it was information from the "masonry" that really made the mafia win in the end - but if CFJ had been town, and there were no mafia, it would have been an incredibly easy game for the town.

Worst Role Mafia man... I can't say anything for certain but I think lots of your players were just fucking around? I didn't read the game but at any rate I wouldn't use that game as an example for all of mafia.

For instance, in Cyclic Experiment II, I was in a neighborhood with MagnaofIllusion, and we were talking and I saw something that wasn't there. Ended up campaigning for his lynch. He was night killed that next night, but I definitely could have ended up lynching him and it definitely wasted towns' time and effort. We were both town.

[Junpei]

These would seem to conflict slightly...

I thought given that it Worst Role mafia it was supposed to be 10% mafia game 90% lolroles, I guess I was wrong.

gorckat: Why would I ever not choose "cop and doc" and "lynch"? How is vig and lynch different except for that the vig can get blocked/lost? Why would the cop not claim for protection every night? How does this game not end by the end of night 2?

[Junpei]

Hm. Well I think lynch is a must pick because it's the only ability that you can't lose and it is a killing ability.

So that makes doc useless because no PRs to protect.

Cop or Vig... that's a decision though I'd go cop. Reason being that there are too many kills in a small setup and a cop is the conservative option.

In my personal opinion I think I'd get rid of SK because there's too many kills going on. If town went lynch/vig, that's 4 kills in one phase in a 11p game. also 3v1v7 doesn't seem super balanced anyway. Could you explain more why there's a Serial kIller? I'd personally make the game a bit bigger but I'm wondering on your reasoning.

[Junpei]

Fools for Thought

7 Vt
1 MSci
1 town neighborizer
1 odd fool
1 even fool
1 mafia RB
1 mafia goon

neighborizer chooses during start of day and night who to have in QT for next day
neighborizer may choose to have a new QT made whenever a new person is recruited.
Mad scientist targets 2 living players and is told whether or not the alignment of those two is SAME or NOT SAME.
Mad scientist may not select a target he selected on previous night.
fool reaching its win con ends game


it has been mathematically determined that the odd day fool does not have a statistical advantage due to the odds to get lynched increasing in time.

[Junpei]

What's a fool?

Also, can the MSci target himself? I wouldn't think so.

fool wants to be lynched

odd day fool on odd days, etc

MSci can not target himself.

[Junpei]

Yeah fool is the Epic Mafia equivalent of MS's Jester.

Also regardless of "statistical analysis" Odd fool does have an advantage, because we play in the real world, not in the random world.

What would the Mad Scientist get if he targets;
{Fool, Town}
{Fool, Scum}

Different Different and I know there is a benefit of going first however you have to be able to look past the first day and see how it is balanced. Not all games are balanced around simply day 1. The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

Flay, thinking about it you are right, but not for those reasons. I think it gives the fools a slight buff (doesn't change anything except for that now you dont get a SAME between fools and it hurting the other fool when one dies against wincon... a small buff ofc)

[Junpei]

The odd fool has a .08% advantage overall.

I think your missing my point slightly, if everyone random lynched, then the Odd and Even fool would be about the same, but games aren't based on randomness but on logic, hence the odd fool has a lot more of a strategic advantage because they get the first chance at directing a non random lynch at themselves.

Well then if we are going to speak like that, then I would say that the even fool has a strategic advantage because it will have more time, and experience with the gamestate, to get lynched on day 2. In addition the even fool has less people to try to convince.