[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Empking]

Gunsmith

2 Goons

5 Townies who each have a 2/5 chance of being a Gunsmith.

[Empking]

Mr. Flay:
1. Gunsmiths are awesome.
2. Immune to breakage.

Do Gunsmiths carry guns?

Also, no idea how the balance on this would work, but I had an idea...

One at a Time

(this name sucks)

2

Mafia Goons

1

Odd-Night Cop

1

Even-Night Doctor

3

Vanilla Townies

OR

2

Mafia Goons

1

Odd-Night Doctor

1

Even-Night Cop

3

Vanilla Townies

A similar game is already in existence.

[Empking]

I lookede forb this link I'm going to darn well post it! http://67.222.17.61/forum/viewtopic.php ... hlight=odd*

[Empking]

Not mafia.

[Empking]

Random roles are lame.

[Empking]

Spree Killer - kills 2 people at

random

every even night, wins when everyone else dies. Does not ignore bulletproof

[Empking]

If random roles are lame, why do I see many faith-healers?

Drunks. Lots and lots of drunks..

I'd reccomend changing the Spree Killer so his kill doesn't reduce bulletproofs (and goes after the Mafia and vanilla SK's shots). I would also reccomend boosting the SK's power by giving them a bulletproof vest too.

[Empking]

Does the Spree Killer ignore bulletproof or not?

Norkmally I don't like large games but

Second Deranged

[Empking]

No, he doesn't ignore it, but he DOES reduce it.

You might want to add that to the description.

[Empking]

I don't like the EV of the second but I like the first. Can you boost the power of the third town up a tad?

Edit: Second the First One.

[Empking]

Third Mafia

1 Scum Jester
1 Scum Lyncher

5 Townies

1 non-lyncher is told they're the lynchee and flips as such.
Scum have to fulfill both of their win conditions.

[Empking]

Hmm I don't understand how that would work.

Why not?

bvoigt: The jester just needs to claim in your one.

[Empking]

Third Mafia

1 Scum Jester
1 Scum Lyncher

5 Townies

1 non-lyncher is told they're the lynchee and flips as such.
Scum have to fulfill both of their win conditions.

I assume you mean one townie is chosen as the lynchee, correct?

No, its possible for the Scum Jester to be the lynchee.

[Empking]

That's a bad game...
Scum need to play as normal until mafia has a majority of the town then they lynch the townies, then lynch the jester.

So you're suggesting 2:5 is a balanced set-up.

One somebody has fulfilled their win con the game ends. This means that for both the Jester and lyncher to win they have to endgame after lynching the jester and lynchee.

[Empking]

This feels fixed-ish.

Mafia

(3)

2x Mafia Goons
1x Vigilante Disabler/2-Shot Roleblocker/Role Cop

Town

(10)

1x Cop/Vigilante
1x Innocent Child/Tracker
1x Bodyguard/2-Shot Jailkeeper
7x Townies

~~

- If the Vig Disabler is chosen by scum, it makes the Vig shoot blanks (essentially the opposite of an Enabler). If the Disabler dies, the vig can start shooting.
- Vig doesn't get told if their shot gets blocked or if they shoot blanks.

Why have the vig disabler, exactly? If I draw the Vig/Cop playslot, and I know there is a guaranteed protective role of some sort in the setup, I'm choosing Cop every time.

But is that best play? (Tip: No.)

[Empking]

Innocent Child is confirmed town from the start. That means the town has one less person to search for scum.

The bodyguard can then defend the Inno from death Night 1.

No! IC's choose when they want the mod to confirm them

Not always and not in Hoopla's set up.

[Empking]

Oh ok. Emp what do you think of my set up?

3 shot vig is better than odd night vig everytime. (Too be honest though 12 players = bad in my book.)

[Empking]

Just make it 9:2:2.

[Empking]

Surely the reverse Doctor is just another example of a reflexive role?

[Empking]

Don't the town essentially control the nightkill, though? One townie will claim doctor on day one. MAfia don't know if its real or not, but can't take the chance it isn't because if it is the real doc they can't kill anyone else. Next day, same thing. If the doctor doesn't die in the night, you know the person claiming was mafia, lynch away!

I guess the mafia could try and shoot elsewhere, but they would have to balance this out with the possibility the actual doctor did claim, and they would be wasting a night.

I think its worth wasting the night.

(Yes I know that makes no sense considering the town can just make the probability the Doc claims high enough for it to be worth shooting the claimant. That doesn't change what I think.)

[Empking]

@Shadowmod:
If Sleepwalker visits the guy whose going to die while werewolves are there, it makes 'em look pretty suspicious. I think Sleepwalker is useless. Very useless.

I don't think he's meant to help the town

[Empking]

Shotty: What is a Blacksmith.

[Empking]

y should equal 0 and x should equal 4 or 5

Source Code

Nightless

1 Kingpin (Scum lose if he's lynched.)
1 Goon

4 Townies

The game only lasts for three days. Town do not die when lynched.

[Empking]

y should equal 0 and x should equal 4 or 5

Seriously?

Yes.

Tragedy: Yes they'll be confirmed town and its nightless.

[Empking]

The game only lasts for three days.

[Empking]

Yeah, unless they were lynched previously. (Also (unless I'm missing something) the EV for this sort of set up is (# Days/ # Players).)

[Empking]

If F&E is balanced then that isn't, I'd say.

[Empking]

Yeah, unless they were lynched previously. (Also (unless I'm missing something) the EV for this sort of set up is (# Days/ # Players).)

EV?

The odds of town winning with random play.

[Empking]

I don't think the site likes Jester games.

[Empking]

Oh yeah, one Mafioso is Not Mafia. Add an extra Mafioso and turn the Cop into a Vig (you need a way to get rid of the jesters).

Then cause the Jesters to be on a team with a roleblock.

[Empking]

Oh yeah, one Mafioso is Not Mafia. Add an extra Mafioso and turn the Cop into a Vig (you need a way to get rid of the jesters).

Then cause the Jesters to be on a team with a roleblock.

Uh I don't think that's a great idea. Maybe I will add 1 mafia and then make 6 VTs my minimum instead of 4 but keep the 2 fools. I like the jester thing... did you read all my points on why this is a good setup? The way to get rid of jesters is from mafia's night kill or just dodging them during the day. It's mafia.

Town shouldn't be reliant on scum to get rid of other scum and dodging them during the day doesn't get rid of them.

[Empking]

Jesters aren't scum they are just not town. Third party, if you will.

In this setup, a fool lynch DOES end the game.

Nope.

So do you think that if I add 1 scum and make fool deaths not end the game it'd be a playable setup? Or still too much jester.........

You should probably just ignore Jester speculation in that case.

[Empking]

What reason would there be for both Fools to

not

claim D1, get lynched at the appropriate times, and then have Town and scum fight over what's left?

No in that case I think town will just be contrary and not just let the Jesters win (Not lynching even on even, I mean).

Empking I don't understand your post, are you saying that if fools don't end the game on lynch that town will ignore jesters?

Yeah.

[Empking]

Keep your jesters. Have two bulletproof mafia. Add a vig. That way jesters can actually die and the mafia have to be lynched. There.

I think that strengthens the Mafia but doesn't impact strategy as the Vig will know that the Mafia are Mafia if they fail.

[Empking]

Yeah thought of that right after I pressed submit...

It's going to be hard to make this idea really work.

Paris is the best this set up is ever going to be. (Maybe some cosmetic changes but basically Paris.)

[Empking]

Would my game work if it were millerless?

Dude your game was soooo last year.

It'd probably be balanced but I have no idea why one would choose to play it.

Edit: How could it go to 9v3? Open set ups do not need to have full reveal but non-full reveal is a plaster for poor game design.

[Empking]

Empking's Lousy Idea Mafia

Nightless

1 Mafia Weirdo - Not really in the game (Can't be lynched, has no vote). Has an anytime chat with the Mafioso. At day he can give a non-mafiaso a day vig.
1 Maia Goon

1 Town Weirdo - Not really in the game. At day he can give any player a day vig.
3 Townies

Empking's Other Lousy Idea

Nightless

1 Mafia Weirdo - Not really in the game (Can't be lynched, has no vote). Has an anytime chat with the Mafioso. At day he can give a non-mafiaso a day vig.
1 Maia Goon

3 Townies

[Empking]

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia One-Shot Suitmaker
5 Vanilla Townies
1 Cop
1 Innocent Child

Cop does not know that they are cop; they receive a VT PM.
All town roles (excepting Innocent Child) submit a name to the mod and all but the cop gets a randomised result back.
The Cop is revealed as such when he dies.

The Suitmaker can target any one person in the entire game to flip as any of VT, Cop, Goon, Suitmaker or Innocent Child.

The Innocent Child can PM the mod to be confirmed innocent at any time.

no. If you're deadset on something like this role, simplify it and make it a "shepherd" that "scapegoats" a person to appear as a mafia goon when they die. However, I think having the "oblivious" cop idea ought to be enough for it's own set-up. I definitely wouldn't play it as is.

Good posting but I don't think either of the parts make a good set up really.

[Empking]

Also I would really appreciate some comments on my suggestions, i.e. something more helpful than essentially "I don't understand your setup and am too lazy to figure it out".

---

R

G

B

-Mafia

1

Red

mafia goon

1

Green

mafia goon

1

Blue

mafia goon

4

Red

townies

4

Green

townies

4

Blue

townies

Too much positive feedback (/swingy). The idea is fundamentally unworkable.

---

NightWatch
Wolf Pack (Scum Team): 3 Werewolves - share a factional nightkill - share a factional track - the same werewolf can only either track or kill in each night	Night-Watch (Town-Aligned): 2 Nightwatchmen - Watchers & Masons - cannot target themselves or each other	Town: 7 Vanilla Townies 1 Sleepwalker - visits a random person every night - does not know he is the Sleepwalker - flips as Vanilla on death

Too much power is conentrated in two roles. Also, I think balance wise its scumfavoured.

[Empking]

So... I'm assuming you want to lynch the mafia with the same color as you? The issue is that there is no way to discern who is what color.

Only that your role PM would obviously tell you...

Too much positive feedback (/swingy). The idea is fundamentally unworkable.

It is definitely

not

swingy. Yes, it can provide a lot of positive feedback for town, but it only rewards good scumhunting, so that's not a bad thing.

Re Swingy: Three blues die and you lynch the blue scum. Three blues die and you lynch the red scum. Two completely different scenarios based on the same amount of skill. That's swingy in my book.
Re Positive Feedback: 1. Or they got lucky rather than good scumhunting. 2. Positive Feedback is always a bad thing.

Too much power is conentrated in two roles. Also, I think balance wise its scumfavoured.

Are you aware that these two theses blatantly contradict each other?

They don't.

And speaking about power concentrated in few roles think about the same setup, only with a cop instead. One could always reduce night watch power to one shared watch.

Cop strikes me as going overboard. I'df be inclined to move toward the miller route.

[Empking]

Junpei: Repeat after me: "Jester"

Also, Hoopla felt that a 16 player game with only two scum and four town PRs was balanced?

Only Good Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

[Empking]

Since you post before my edit.

Only Decent Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

Junpei: The fools hurt Mafia at least as much as the Town (proportional to the odds of them otherwise winning).

[Empking]

Since you post before my edit.

Only Decent Fourteen Player Game

4 Mafia - The killer can make two night kill simultaniously

4 Bombs
2 Vigs
4 Townies

Junpei: The fools hurt Mafia at least as much as the Town (proportional to the odds of them otherwise winning).

Town need to use their vigilante shot to try and shoot down the fools.

The fools are notable for their scummy and antitown play. Do you know who else plays scummy and antitown? That's right! Vig-shots in a regular game.

Bet you thought I'd say Mafia then.

Shadow: I played in a very similar game to the one I suggested as an open. I'm pretty sure it was awesome.

[Empking]

Sigh, empking.

THESE ARE NOT REGULAR FOOLS

They have different MOTIVATION than REGULAR FOOLS because there are only certain days that they want to be lynched.

That's only a minor change.

pedit: Town doesn't randomly throw a dart and lynch someone. At some point you have to stop going off the odds and factor skill into the equation.

Yeah, Hoopla. Factor in the skill of the unknown players!

[Empking]

Empking.

It is not a minor change it is a major change. Fools have half as many days give or take 1 day to get lynched. The motivation for fools has completely changed from "be scummy and get lynched" to "be scummy in such a way that you are lynched on your certain days" which requires much more skill.

For the even one that is.

Plus I don't think Lurking before going all out is all that dificult.

[Empking]

So empking you think it is optimal fool play to lurk on days when he doesn't want to be lynched and then go all out on days he does?

Yes that won't be obvious no sir.

If you weren't being sarcastic this would be a good post.

[Empking]

So empking you think it is optimal fool play to lurk on days when he doesn't want to be lynched and then go all out on days he does?

Yes that won't be obvious no sir.

If you weren't being sarcastic this would be a good post.

I only want help in balancing this setup to the furthest degree possible. I admit my sarcasm was a bit childish, although I was getting slightly agitated with you pointing out facts that were fine in perspective of the set-up. My apologies, I shouldn't expect you to know as much about the setup as I.

Whaty do you think the chances of a Mafia win is?
Fool win is?

[Empking]

Are you asking for arbitrary numbers or arbitrary words? Because as stated I have no math completed at this point.

Arbitary numbers.

[Empking]

Reg: M: 1/6 F (both): 1/3 T: 1/2

[Empking]

@Empking - Do you think it's too town sided or too jester sided? Also do you think addition of rolecop instead of goon would balance up the setup?

Town sided and no. 2:2:12 is just insurmountable odds in anything but mountainous.

[Empking]

@Empking - Do you think it's too town sided or too jester sided? Also do you think addition of rolecop instead of goon would balance up the setup?

Town sided and no. 2:2:12 is just insurmountable odds in anything but mountainous.

2:1:1:12

is just insurmountable odds in anything but mountainous.

[Empking]

Some funny Jester calculations.

SK v Odd Jester v Even Jester v 2 Townies

SK: (If they can win with Even Jester) 2/5 (Dramatically less than in 1:4)
Odd Jester: 1/5
Even Jester: 4/45
Town: 2/5

SK v Even Jester vs X Jester v 4 Townies

Odd Jester: 107/525
Day One Jester: 75/525 & 1/7
Day Three Jester: 32/525
Even Jester: 48/525 & 16/175

[Empking]

Empking that is a poor scenario choice.

Try crunching the numbers for my setup and you'll notice the fun fact that I pointed out.

So you think that the odd night Jester is more likey to win based on a day three lynch than a day one lynch? Why the massive change between the two scenarios?

To be honest if you say the Jesters can't win day one then I think my numbers might help your case. (Thoughits enough for me to say that the scum don't stand a snowball's chance.)

[Empking]

Very unlikely? With four power roles that won't get lynche then the odds of a Jester lynch (odd day) are 1/12.

(Oh yeah just noticed. In my revious EV post the even-day's chances are based off having the other jester being either odd day or day 1.)

[Empking]

Yes. Because there are only two mafia. And a Vig.

Thought experiment:
2 Mafia, Even Fool, Odd Fool, 1 Vig, 3 Named Townies, 8 Townies
Mass claim straight away.
Odds of Odd fool wining D1: 1/12
Odds of Even fool winniong D2: (slightly less than) 5/66

[Empking]

The Vigilante would get CC'd?
CC by Fool.
Lynch someone else. Vig kills fool. Instant loss.

CC by Mafia:
Lynch someone else. Vig gets roleblocked/killed. Town lynches Mafia. Terrible decision.

[Empking]

well actually

CC by fool.
Lynch someone else for the time being. Mafia RBs Vigilante. Sooner or later consider lynching a vigilante claim as mafia gambit. Win.

Oh yeah, I forgot how the Mafia wanted the Jesters lynch in order to lose. Duh!

CC by mafia.
Lynch someone else for the time being. Mafia RBs Vigilante. Mafia gambit may pay off.

No because they'll be lynched. The more you know!

[Empking]

Junpei: Mafia do not want the jesters to win. They lose if that happens. They don't want to lose. They want to win!

[Empking]

Junpei: Mafia do not want the jesters to win. They lose if that happens. They don't want to lose. They want to win!

Empking: Mafia do not want town to win. They lose if that happens. They must weigh the risk of jesters (when you know at least 1, and when you know his identity it makes it easier to discern which day they want to be lynched) against the risk of other town PRs. I think the decision is easy, as town not knowing who their vigilante is and being afraid to lynch them because of fools is a big blow to town.

Town lynches a Vig Claimant the next day. Just give me that.
When a fool claims: This means that is the Mafia do not allow the Vig to kill that they have a 50% of just losing (presuming Mafia don't try and knowingly kill a Jester.)
This is a risk that the scum don't want to take.
This means that if a Jester claims they will not roleblock the Vig.
This means the fools will not claim Vig.

Which bit do you disagree with.

[Empking]

Shotty: I can't judge without knowing what ability. I'd reccomend an investigative role. I'd reccomend even further some sort of Vanilla Town Cop.

Junpei: What about 2 fools?
They lynch the Vig claims because that stops the mafia from roleblocking (which only has a 50% chance of working by the by (two claimants)) which stops the fools from claiming.

[Empking]

Unlynchable = Bad
Apart from that it looks cool.

[Empking]

Shotty: I can't judge without knowing what ability. I'd reccomend an investigative role. I'd reccomend even further some sort of Vanilla Town Cop.

Junpei: What about 2 fools?
They lynch the Vig claims because that stops the mafia from roleblocking (which only has a 50% chance of working by the by (two claimants)) which stops the fools from claiming.

I don't get it. Are you saying that a 25% chance to lose on one day is not bad?

What?

Also >roleblock right and learn 2 overall roles. roleblock wrong and kill/RB vigilante from now on. Worth it when you consider the other options are doctor RB (long shot), neighborizer RB (might not even be something you want to do) and hider RB (who you don't even know is doing anything that night).

RB right and you have a good chance of giving a Jester a win and possibly forced to waste your night kill to keep the fool from winning.

Day X: 50% chance of lynching Fool. 50% of it being his day. Jester Win.
Day X: 50% chance of lynching Fool. 50% of it not being his day. The only good scum situation.
Day X: 50% of not lynching Fool. Forced to waste their night kill killing the Fool.

When you're better off missing then its better not to shoot.

[Empking]

Fixed

3x Mafia Goons

7x Townies
1x Vanilla Townie Cop
1x Odd Night Aggressive Ability Giver Mason
1x Even Night Passive Ability Giver Mason

Aggressive Ability Giver Abilities: Bomb, PGO, and Day Vig
Passive Ability Giver Abilities: Commuter, Jailkeeper, and Guard

If one of the Ability Givers dies then the other Ability giver gets their unused abilities, but may only still use them on their night.
If the Vanilla Townie Cop investigate someone who has been given an ability then the result if not a VT.

I think that's cool.

[Empking]

25% is the chance that town lynching a vigil claim results in a town loss.

Why do you assume that keeping fool alive is so bad? Why do you assume town will lynch between the vigil claims?

Because that's the way to maximise their chance of winning by pushing the mafia's hand.

Why do you assume that mafia will throw a shot at the jester cc?

When?

If the town will lynch the Fool otherwise then the scum will be forced to kill him.

[Empking]

No, they won't. The town will just have to decide if they are willing to lose the vigilante for a possible fool. No the optimal situation is to hunt till you kill 1 mafia. Then the roleblocks will have to stop and vigil can kill his cc.

No.

Town pinky promises that in the case of two vig claimants surviving a night they'll lynch one of us them. Therefore nobody counterclaims the Vig (because of the logic I already gave). This is a good thing.

[Empking]

No one yes.

Except for the fool whose day to be lynched is the next day.

No because the Vig will kill them.

[Empking]

No one yes.

Except for the fool whose day to be lynched is the next day.

No because the Vig will kill them.

No because mafia will RB them.

See how this conversation is going?

Yes you going "La la la can't hear you.".

We can't assume what people will do like this. It is purely based on player preference.

No. We judge based on logical things that will happen.

Scum don't want to lose. Therefore they won't go out of their way to lose. If we can't judge based on that axiom then we can't judge at all.

[Empking]

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Regular Mafia
1 Mafia Role Cop

1 Odd Day Jester Lover(Third Party)
1 Even Night Jester Lover(Third Party)

1 Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Neighbourizer
1 2 Shot Town Even Day Doctor
1 2 Shot Even Night Role Cop
9 VTs

Notes:
The fact that they are lovers and can talk creates a reason for them to live even more so, and also gives them a reason to play well during the day as a faction because if one if NK'd or Lynched when it's not thier day/night the other dies as well and that faction looses.

IF ONE JESTER WINS THEY BOTH WIN
If the jesters win the game continues

I think that town should just get rid of the Jesters D1 if the odd night claims D1.

[Empking]

Maybe a Jester team who wins if both of them are lynched and ends the game?

Paris.

[Empking]

1 Mafia Roleblocker
1 Regular Mafia
1 Mafia Role Cop

1 Odd Day Jester Lover(Third Party)
1 Even Night Jester Lover(Third Party)

1 Town Jailkeeper
1 Town Neighbourizer
1 2 Shot Town Even Day Doctor
1 2 Shot Even Night Role Cop
9 VTs

Notes:
The fact that they are lovers and can talk creates a reason for them to live even more so, and also gives them a reason to play well during the day as a faction because if one if NK'd or Lynched when it's not thier day/night the other dies as well and that faction looses.

IF ONE JESTER WINS THEY BOTH WIN
If the jesters win the game continues

I think that town should just get rid of the Jesters D1 if the odd night claims D1.

There is no odd night...

odd day

[Empking]

Why? The jesters don't harm the town,

They're anti-town and dilute town's chances of finding scum.

[Empking]

.........

Empking's scenario doesn't make sense to me. It relies on mafia and fool misguessing each other.

No.

[Empking]

- Bad Politics -

- 12 players -
1 Vengeful Mafia
1 Mafia Impeacher(Chooses a player, if that player is Governor the next day, he will not be allowed to overturn the lynch.)
1 Mafia Goon
8 Townies
1 Pollmaster(Is informed on who voted who during the night, and who the Governor is.)

Starts with a kill-less N0.
On this N0, all players elect a player to be the "Governor". The player who is elected is not informed they were elected till the end of D1.

Day proceeds as usual, until the lynch.
The Governor is informed that he was elected and can choose to lynch any player who has at least 1 vote on them. He must make this decision publicly.

After that, the player is no longer the Governor and gets his old role back. Votes occur each night by all players including mafia.

Impeacher is essentially a Governor-only-role-blocker, and Pollmaster is essentially a Vote-Tracker, so I don't think the roles are

too

un-normal. I tried to give the mafia a lot of power considering the town pretty much has total control over the lynch unless they accidentally govern mafia. Thoughts?

Can I get some thoughts on this?

Town are too weak.

[Empking]

Cozy Mafia

1 Mafia Bully (forces someone to hide during the night, [cannot use ability on self?])
6 Vanilla Townies

Each day three things are voted upon:
- who receives an (publicly-announced) ability
- who to lynch

Each night the Goon can select someone (NB: cannot be the person who received an ability on the day prior) to kill.

Good idea or no? Need to discuss what abilities are up for offer.

Ump-bay?

What goon?

[Empking]

1:6 is very (well, slightly) town favoured. Your set up only adds to that.

[Empking]

The latter two are balanced I'm pretty sure. But yeah, give the SK two kills a night?

PEdit: 2:10 is not "theoretically" balanced. I've never seen a theory that would suggest that as a balanced game.

[Empking]

The latter two are balanced I'm pretty sure. But yeah, give the SK two kills a night?

PEdit: 2:10 is not "theoretically" balanced. I've never seen a theory that would suggest that as a balanced game.

That's what Ive always heard. Idk where I remember seeing it but ive seen it.

Do you think the cop/2 goons is scumsided?

No. I'd call it a model set up.

PEdit: Con's list.

[Empking]

As Slaxx said, this is not balanced. Keep in mind 2 vs 11 mountainous is usually balanced.

No it isn't.

[Empking]

6 anti-town: 3 Mafia Goons (no NK), 3 Werewolves, 1 Innocent Child, 1 Cop, 5 Townies

Is this right?

[Empking]

6 anti-town: 3 Mafia Goons (no NK), 3 Werewolves, 1 Innocent Child, 1 Cop, 5 Townies

Is this right?

Yes, I think that could be balanced.

So the Mafia are objectively weaker than the werewolves?

[Empking]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14793 ?

[Empking]

Pressure Mafia

Nightless

3 Mafia (White Flag)

2 Innocent Childs
2 Vanilla Townies

[Empking]

Pressure Mafia

Nightless

3 Mafia (White Flag)

2 Innocent Childs
2 Vanilla Townies

EV is 0.5 btw.

[Empking]

Do scum get a kill?

No.

I was thinking it being confirmed via PM. Might be simpler to do it the D1 way though.

[Empking]

Less Pressure

Nightless

3 Mafia - White flag - First one dead gets to kill a player.

2 Innocents Childs
3 VTs

[Empking]

Mine:
1/2 (Scum lynch) * 2/5 (scum lynch)
1/2 * 3/5 * 1/2

1/2 (Town lynch) *3/5 (scum lynch) * 1/2 (scum lynch)

For a 0.5 EV, where are we diverging?

[Empking]

I've just shown my calculations. ICs are not lynchable in my way. I am using the D1 ICs in my calculations though.

[Empking]

Mine:
1/2 (Scum lynch) * 2/5 (scum lynch)
1/2 * 3/5 * 1/2

1/2 (Town lynch) *3/5 (scum lynch) * 1/2 (scum lynch)

For a 0.5 EV, where are we diverging?

After one scum is lynched they have to lynch all VTs to win.
Which means you need to add:
1/2 (scum) * 3/5 (town) * 1/2 (town) * 2/3 (scum)
and
1/2 (town) * 3/5 (scum) * 1/2 (town) * 2/3 (scum).

which will give you another .2 EV

-edited to correct my error-

With only one IC (The other one was vengekill'd) then scum has one by the 2/3 round.

[Empking]

Wouldn't it be really swingy though? Who gets what powers would be, essentially, random.

[Empking]

Asymmetrical Nightless

2 Mafia - Day Seer
3 Werewolves
7 Townies

Werewolves win if town can no longer win and a Werewolf remains. Mafia win if town can no longer win and no Werewolves remain.

[Empking]

It's nightless so mafia doesn't shoot.

Seems werewolf sided to me.

The set up (it seems to me) gives werewolves roughly the same odds as 3:9 (I didn't do any calculations though). That's very much a town favoured one. IOf the Mafia takes mainly from the town (which seems reasonable) then the set up should be balanced.

[Empking]

NO.

The seer, if he says "hey I'm seer" is confirmed scum and dies.

Basically there are MORE werewolves than mafia, and werewolves win if they are alone with mafia. Mafia gains no benefit whatsoever to balance.

Therefore, by default, a werewolf is much more likely to win the game than a mafia. That is not balance.

Yes if you pretend the Seer thing is irrelevant. It isn't though so that's a bad presumption.

[Empking]

They all get day chat? The Mafia and Werewolves, I mean.

Yeah.

[Empking]

1-shot Vigs are kinda lousy in odd number set ups (especially in such a small one.)

[Empking]

To continue the theme of super original set ups

Double Dip Nightless

2 Mafia Goons

4 Vanilla Townies

Nightless & Double Dip

[Empking]

It seems like its best play to massclaim to me.

(If scum counterclaim vig then you can allow the vig to vig the other one. If scum counterclaim loverizer then you let the loverizer loverize their counterclaimee and a scaoegoat and the vig vigs the scape goat. With no counterclaim I see around a 0.6 EV.)

[Empking]

Don't use watcher. Tracker would be better, definitely. It's harder to find a killer than predict who'll be killed by a long way.

Tracker would probably be underpowered compared to a roleblocker.

[Empking]

I think it just causes mass bussing making it less skillful from the town.

[Empking]

I think it just causes mass bussing making it less skillful from the town.

?Explain.

They can NK themselves at night.

They can dont need to use the day lynch to lynch mastermind.

They probably shouldn't though.

[Empking]

An idea I had a really long time ago, just found it looking through some old word documents:

Necromancy Mafia

x1

Town Necromancer

(has access to Dead QT)
x1

Town Cop

x8

Vanilla Townies

x2

Mafia Goons

x1

Mafia Rolecop

The idea is that once you're dead, you're still not out of the game. Dead townies can give their thoughts, the cop can relay his results, and the mafia can WIFOM their hearts out. The role is only helpful if the dead players decide to stay active in the QT, however I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. I don't think it's too bad, at least concept-wise, but I'd love to hear whatever thoughts you have on it.

Edit: Hey, just realized this is my 1,000th post on-site!

I don't think players like those sorts of Dead QTs.

[Empking]

Explain how you calculated.

If no dream, town randomly lynches a player.
If dream, town randomly lynches a dreamed player.

Can you give more detail? I got a more 40%ish score with my back matchbox calculation. If they lynch scum D1 then from then on I have them as over 70% but just then.

[Empking]

Chicken

2 Mafia - Lack a kill

4 Town

During Day 1, along with lynching, players also vote a Champion (the day ends with a lynch with the player with the most champion votes* being Champion). The Champion must, during the next night, target a player. The Champion and Vig then have a choice to kill the other or not.

*In the event of a tie go backwards until there is no tie. In the event of no votes ever being casted pick a random player.

[Empking]

I think it's whoever the champion targets?

Yeah.

Quadz: Couples Night(less) has the same EV as 1:3 nightless. That is 50%.

[Empking]

Yeah, I like Black Flag Nightless. I'd like to see it run at any rate.

Regulation

2 Mafia Goons - Can either factionally vanillaise or kill each night.

1 Cop
4 Vanilla Townie

There are also two doctors to be distributed randomly amongst the non-Cops (inc. Goons).

[Empking]

Just means it's a factional power not tied to either of them.

Yeah this is correct, my apologies for not being clearer.

[Empking]

I like it. I'd like to see it run at least.

[Empking]

Triplets

(based somewhat on Kise's Capcom Crossover Mafia)
3 Mafia Goons
6 Vanilla Townies
Nightless; Mafia have Daytalk
No no-lynching
Players are placed into groups of three, with two Vanilla Townies and one Mafia Goon in each group. Those players can talk to each other at any time in the game in a QT. The groups will be numbered (1, 2, 3). On Day One, the lynch will be between the players in Group 1, and will cycle each Day.
Standard win conditions apply.


I have no idea how balanced this is, and the wording is a little off, IMO.

One thing about that is the scum in group 1 can't win if the other two scum are lynched.

[Empking]

Hmm. That's a good point, but doesn't that just kinda make it like White Flag?

If you don't force them through all the conf-toqwn lynches, it does.

[Empking]

If you just say that once a neighbourhood has been purged from scum those players no longer need to be killed, and that scum win once they have half of the votes or once they're the only living player in their group, then you've got a streamlined, workable, balanced-enough game.

[Empking]

I don't want two confirmed townies in one group alive and deathproof. Therefore, it's pretty much just choosing who is best alive.

Maybe, if Mafia in a group gets lynched first, the Mafia get to kill from that group during its turn.

PEdit: Are you saying that scum can have two ways of winning; they can either win as a team by gaining majority or win by themselves by staying alive? I don't like that too much because when scum are screwed, they can just ask the town to let them live to the end, then lynch their buddy.

No I meant the entire team won by having a member be the last in his group.

[Empking]

What I meant for Fruit Vendor is that if the Mafia target the same people as the Fruit Vendor they get a kill. I guess they would submit a kill and targets to make it run smoothly. THe kill just wouldn't always go through.

I think optimum play for FV might be to pick randomly.

[Empking]

Nought and Crosses M

[Empking]

Nought and Crosses Mafia

2 Reds

7 Whites

Each player is put on a publicly viewable board. The player in the middle square is confirmed town. Each day town chooses someone to lynch, this also puts a cross on that player's square. Each night scum choose a player to kill, this puts a nought on that player's square. Town win if scum are dead or they get three crosses in a row. Scum win if equal numbers to the town or get three noughts in a row.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

Siv, the interesting interactions of scumhunting messed with the board is what I'm going for. Although I do expect it would be scum favoured I think it would be so less than you'd think. The combination of board and confirmed townie nerf the scum's main weapon to a pretty large weapon.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

Siv, the interesting interactions of scumhunting messed with the board is what I'm going for. Although I do expect it would be scum favoured I think it would be so less than you'd think. The combination of board and confirmed townie nerf the scum's main weapon to a pretty large weapon.

Scratch the 'balance' bit. Just did some (non-rigirous) sum and I'm pretty sure it's overall balanced (though pretty, but not crazily so, dependent on the set up of the board.)

[Empking]

I think this analysis is right, but I'm tired so I may have made a mistake.

Town has to lynch a corner on their first shot, or scum control the tic-tac-toe aspect and win.

If they hit scum, great. If they hit town though, then scum kill the Innocent Child in the middle. Now town has a choice: lynch a corner, or lynch a side. The one place they cannot lynch is the opposite corner from the first one, or scum control their moves from then on out.

If town lynches a side, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the corner for the block. Then town needs to block, then scum needs to block, repeat until game over.

If town lynches a corner, no matter what the results, scum has to lynch the side between the two corners. Then town needs to block scum. Then scum direct the next lynch.

So most, if not all, of the game, comes down to the first two lynches and the layout of the board.

I'm not so sure with your conclusion, because as long as scum have hit a scum earlier then it doesn't matter that the scum can win (via tic-tac-toe) next turn as long as town hit the final scum

this

turn. I do agree that there might be a day, or so, of play-by-numbers but with the current site's activity and night deadline's I think it won't annoy people.

[Empking]

Yeah, CD, there really is no breaking strategy for N&C.

I didn't think right about the nought in the centre square as the second move, and where the 4th move would then be placed0, but still there's no way for mafia to actually win by getting their noughts in a line.

That's true. It's sort of the anti-Ches Mafia, whereas Chess Mafia was Chess or Mafia; in N&C Mfia if you just play one game then you've lost.

I assume that's why you made the middle square confirmed town because otherwise a mafia in that square would give town the win.

Yeah, middle's the standard second player move and the mafia move secon.

[Empking]

small town

smalltown

[Empking]

Join Or Die

2 Mafia A Godfathers
2 Mafia B Godfathers
1 JK
1 Cop
7 VTs

If both mafia groups send in a "join request", they'll be joined and treated as one group (common wincon, common QT). However, they lose their nightkill and become Goons (i.e. can be found by the Cop).

This game suffers from scum joining up being massively unbalanced. Its against your win condition to not join as scum.

Did you notice that they lose their kill if they join?

I think it's balanced but I don't think the gimmick enhances funness.

[Empking]

Nominate Tread Carefully.

3-1-8

3 Mafia Goons - No Night Kill unless the SK dies

1 Serial Killer

1 FBI Agent
7 Vanilla Townies

[Empking]

I have a new setup proposal for newbie games.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child
1 Doctor
5 Vanilla Town

Checklist:

Mafia has more than one member. (Mafia learns to play as a team)
Town has a PR. (Mafia and Town can learn to PR hunt)
Fakeclaim potentials. (Mafia can fakeclaim as doctor)
Playing with a clear/as a clear. (Innocent Child)
No breaking strategies. (i.e. no Follow the Cop)

My simulation shows that this setup has town win rate of

48.5%

(very close to 50%) given that town were to randomly lynch, and mafia were to randomly shoot. (unless doc claimed of course)

I actually like this quite a bit (and unlike everyone elee I think giving a newbie Doc the protect-IC/Protect-someone-else dilemma is a positive and active thing. Maybe run it as a Micro to sed if it works in that enviroment first?

[Empking]

Blood Night:
The game is just No Lynch. Random kill, Smoke clears. Celebrate\congratulate. I'd probably play it.
Shot in the Dark:
Probably leads to a D1 Mass Claim, likely very town-biased.
One Muderer:
Probably just a slog; also town favoured.
Outnumbered:
Is there a lynch? If so, town can't win, can they?
Santa:
I like the idea somewhat. I can't grasp the balance of it.

[Empking]

I have a question for you guys.

Say there is no limit on how many people town is allowed to lynch per day. (days are only limited by time)

However, the lynch flips are delayed until the day phase ends.

Is this a buff to town?

Yes.

[Empking]

How much of a buff?

It depends on the rest of the set up, but I can't imagine it ever being merely a weak buff.

[Empking]

Cop Killer

3 x lone mafia
1 x town cop
some amount of VTs (6-9?), possibly a miller

The cop is exposed at the beginning of the game, however if more than 1 scum faction targets a player they will not die. A variant with 2 people on each scum team is possible but it seems like it would be a bit too big.

Mafia must choose who to kill wisely, considering other scum motive's, also must try and get the cop killed when no one is else is targeting them.

Something would need to be done to deal with cross kills as they could break the game, maybe the scum could have a rock/paper/scissors type relationship. A can kill B but C, B can kill C but not A, C can kill A but not B etc...

In the rare instance that A kills B who kills C who kills A, it could be no death

Added to what BB said I'd suggest.

2 Team A Goons

2 Team B Goons

1 Known-Cop (Immune to kills if targeted by both teams)
8 VTs or possibly 7 VTs and 1 Spindoctor, to get an additional layer.

[Empking]

Finish or Not Finish[/b]

2 Mafia Goons

1 Serial Killer

1 Doctor
7 VTs

Scum are immune to night kills
The lynch first reveals whether the target is Mafia. The players then have 24 hours to lynch him, or to not lynch him.