[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[gandalf5166]

I got the impression that scum always keeps their role. Also, track is as good as a cop, since mafia will be the only one tracked to two people.

[gandalf5166]

What's a drunk?

[gandalf5166]

Lol. So many masons, it's practically an autowin.

[gandalf5166]

Assuming they're one shot bulletproof? Although it doesn't make much of a difference, because if a kill disappears, vig claims shot and target gets lynched.

[gandalf5166]

DMSIS made a setup that MAKES SENSE?!?!?!?!?!??
/HEAD ASPLODE

[gandalf5166]

Unfortunately, it might not work as a mini theme, since you posted the setup here >.>

[gandalf5166]

Am I the only one who's thinking that the cop is near useless here?

[gandalf5166]

Not to mention that he can't really trust his results, with the framer in there.

[gandalf5166]

Yes, but he's providing more misinformation than good information. So why is he even there? He could at least be every night.

[gandalf5166]

Actually, I've thought and I think I like the cop, assuming this is run as an open. His results are conditional, but I like that. He can only confirm town, not confirm scum. I do however think he should be every night. But if it's closed, the cop is retarded.

[gandalf5166]

The tracker seems a bit much. There are no town night actions, so he's only a TINY bit less powerful than a cop. One question though: can the roleblocker both roleblock and kill the same night?

[gandalf5166]

Well, if the roleblocker can't kill and roleblock same night, then only one scum didn't do the kill. The point is, if he gets a result at all, he gets a guilty.

[gandalf5166]

once again a mass claim kills the game.

How? The roles are random, role says nothing.

[gandalf5166]

oh well then that dumb because mafia millers is a bad idea

Ummm...... You're kidding, right?

[gandalf5166]

I like it. One thing though: You might want to make two psychologists. With one, it just seems kind of swingy.

[gandalf5166]

So the mafia is really a cult with a recruit and a kill if they get big? That's totally balanced.

[gandalf5166]

It was inevitable. Eventually, this thread had to turn to how to balance a cult. >.>

[gandalf5166]

I actually like it. It includes all the alignment-changing bsns of a cult game, without the swinginess. It's a size cap, without actually being a size cap in that cult can keep recruiting. Can I be the one to run it first?

[gandalf5166]

Ehh.......... Maybe not so much with the pregame recruit thing. It just seems like it would bring a LOT of WIFOM into it. Even more so than there would normally be in a cult game, since you usually don't have to worry about it until lategame. Easier to just order them like JF said. One more question: When you get a scum flip, will it tell you if they were originally scum or recruited? I think that in this case it would be more interesting if they didn't. For example, scum could recruit a major suspect, get them lynched the next day, and then point to all these people who looked like they could have been that person's scumbuddy. Whole new dimension to bussing.

[gandalf5166]

That is NOT a good idea. Randomness has no place in mafia.

[gandalf5166]

That..... SORT of makes sense. But then you would have to have a night phase, and then a morning phase, where you let the recruitee into the QT and let him decide who to kill.

[gandalf5166]

I'm...... really not liking that idea. JF's made much more sense, and was more balanced, with less WIFOM and potential activity problems.

[gandalf5166]

That just seems.......... bad. Too much hinges on that one mechanic. Like literally, if mafia goes over their budget and town doesn't, the game could be near-impossible for scum to win.

[gandalf5166]

I actually kind of like Beefster's idea. It would make people be a lot more careful about votes. Likely, the town would decide on FoS lynches before any votes were laid down.

[gandalf5166]

That's.............. really interesting. I really, really like it.

[gandalf5166]

Notice the parentheses. They're just called actors for flavor.

[gandalf5166]

Not really. Would you rather lynch scum or confirm a townie? Especially since the clear would just be insta-killed.

[gandalf5166]

You forgot the D1 there

[gandalf5166]

Oh, that's intentional? So the mechanic is that scum only really get a nightkill if their buddy is lynched.

[gandalf5166]

Ummmm........ what?

1 mason scum buddy? You mean that there would be a scum in the masons?

[gandalf5166]

Just one thing..... wouldn't it make more sense for the scum to be in the neighbor group?

[gandalf5166]

Okay...... now what's the difference between the masons and the neighbors?

[gandalf5166]

So you just generate 4 binary numbers?

[gandalf5166]

What's a barber do?

[gandalf5166]

I LOVE THAT IDEA

[gandalf5166]

To me, it's mafia in it's purest form.

[gandalf5166]

tehehe yes, I kinda wish I had your role. But the priest can't prove anything. And the scum could fake claim spirits, or priests.

But inevitably, anyone who claimed priest would be asked to prove that their vote is invalid if used as hammer/not hammer.

[gandalf5166]

There are also three completely confirmable townies AND a fourth one since you'd have to be pretty stupid to counter-claim the kidnapper unless you're in LyLo as the last scum left(as otherwise identity could be proved, since the kidnapper would have to be stupid to use his ability for anything but confirmation.

[gandalf5166]

you can't prove either Priest

Yeah you can. They can make the methodist hammer, and if the vote doesn't count, then they're telling the truth, and vice versa for the puritan.

[gandalf5166]

Not to mention the fact that the SKs, if they were not idiots, would just claim D1 and practically auto-win since this setup is so weighted against the scumteam. Although the psychiatrists wouldn't want to convert them early, they'd want to wait until they had vigged all of the scum first.

[gandalf5166]

Not to mention the fact that the SKs, if they were not idiots, would just claim D1 and practically auto-win since this setup is so weighted against the scumteam. Although the psychiatrists wouldn't want to convert them early, they'd want to wait until they had vigged all of the scum first.

I'm assuming that the SKs are bulletproof. If they're not, then they wouldn't want to claim until all the scum were dead, obv.

[gandalf5166]

read what I posted they can only claim Spirit

Eh. So after all the scum are dead, a cycle gets set up so that every single claimed spirit gets checked by the psychiatrists. Same deal. The SKs have no motivation to kill once the scum are dead.

[gandalf5166]

What's a bladesmith do?

[gandalf5166]

I've seen them used as the equivalent of gunsmiths for SKs and docs instead of mafia and cops. I guess that in Emp's setup, mafia have both? Or one has each?

[gandalf5166]

So gunsmiths would have guns I assume?

[gandalf5166]

I see a LOT of WIFOM going into that game. I like it.

[gandalf5166]

Thirded

[gandalf5166]

Love Cult

1 Love Cult Leader
12 Vanilla Townies

Each night the Love Cult Leader must select 1 person to join their cult.

If three town are lynched then the cult win and town lose.

If one cult member is lynched then the cult lose and town win.

Town win probabilities are around 52% if playing at random (1/13 chance of lynching correctly day one, 2/11 on day two and 3/9 on day 3).

What? Unless Cult also has a NK, it's 1/13, 2/12, 3/11.

Also personally I think it'd be a bit un-fun of a setup. With no associative tells, D1 is basicially an RVS, and Days 2 and 3 are just a giant WIFOM pit.

You're forgetting that someone dies ever time a lynch happens. >.>

[gandalf5166]

Okay, so how about:

Gunsmith
Doc
5 VTs
2 Goons

Each goon can choose to "throw away his/her gun" at the start of the game. A goon without a gun cannot make a kill, but also appears innocent to the gunsmith. A goon with a gun can kill but appears guilty to the gunsmith. If the doc is overpowered, a Bodyguard who shows up positive on GS investigation and dies in place of target could be used instead. Thoughts?

When goons flipped, would it say whether they had a gun or not?

[gandalf5166]

Watch the cop is obviously broken. Three insanely powerful investigative roles against an all-vanilla scumteam.

[gandalf5166]

But...... not all of those setups are balanced.

[gandalf5166]

What do insane doctors and sensors do?

[gandalf5166]

Well, it might still be mafia, but it's definitely a hell of a lot harder for town.

[gandalf5166]

Mafia is still up against having to fake it.

Yes, but the only thing you're searching for is survival tells. And I know lots of players that don't like dying anyways.

[gandalf5166]

What do 50 50 cops do?

[gandalf5166]

Randomness has no place in mafia, etc.

[gandalf5166]

If the cop is immune to protection, is he also immune to the roleblocking aspect of the jailkeeper?

[gandalf5166]

You do realize that that setup essentially has two cops? One is a "miller", but the other doesn't have to claim to get his target lynched, so it balances out to two cops.

[gandalf5166]

Oh, I hadn't even realized that: Both cops can claim with no fear. So yeah, it's two cops, with one being a miller.

[gandalf5166]

Yeah, pretty much. And depending on whether they're bulletproof or not, neither do either of the SKs.

[gandalf5166]

The only problem is that if SK is lynched D1, town knows it can do follow the cop.

[gandalf5166]

Oh. It's awesome then.

EDIT: 2nd

[gandalf5166]

how many Nth's is needed to get it aproved

I think it's more of a it gets nominated, people Nth it if they want to, and then someone comes in and looks at the nominations and decides which ones are acceptable.

[gandalf5166]

So the town, nor the mafia know who is being vengekilled until the next day.

But there ARE no nights in vengeful.... So basically you're just locking the thread while you wait for a vengekill.

[gandalf5166]

Oh, so scum would get a nightkill? So there would be a chance that the vengekill could target the same person as the NK.

Dammit, Hero, you said exactly what I was about to say.

[gandalf5166]

Presumably the goons have a kill.

What's the point of doing it by PM?

If the lynchee doesn't name who their target will be, it permits the possibility that the scum will target the same person, and if there are two kills, there could be some doubt which kill was made by the scum and which was chosen by the lynchee.
Also, unlike with normal vengeful townies, town can't win after a mislynch in 3-player LYLO.

In vengeful, you don't get a vengekill in 3P.

[gandalf5166]

In vengeful, you don't get a vengekill in 3P.

There's a difference between the open setup "Vengeful Mafia" and a setup where all townies are vengeful.

Yeah, I was just confused because of the way he titled it.

[gandalf5166]

Shotty's Double Doc
2 Goons

2 Cops
3 Townies

Docs can't protect each other.

I ASSUME you mean docs......

[gandalf5166]

Licence to kill: Created by Gman

Variant a:

1 mafia goon
1 mafia day rolecop
1 Day Vig (One-Shot, publicly declares kill)
5 vanilla townies

Variant b:

2 mafia goons
1 Day Vig (One-Shot, publicly declares kill)
5 vanilla townies

I'm not sure that the rolecop in a would really be that useful.

[gandalf5166]

I feel like it needs another poison doc.

[gandalf5166]

Do mafia get a normal nightkill in poisoner?

[gandalf5166]

Actually, I think I like that better anyway.

Massive Poisoning

1 Mafia Poisoner
1 Mafia Back-Up Poisoner
1 Roleblocker
1 Role Cop

1 Day Poisoning Maniac (immune to 2 doses of poison)

1 Poison Doctor
1 Town Poisoner
1 Town Roleblocker
1 Tracker
1 Watcher
1 Universal Backup
11 Townies

Notes

Night Start
Universal Backup will be told that they're townie. They only replace Tracker, Watcher, Poison Doctor or Roleblocker.
Poison Doctors cures people from Poison.
Poison automatically kills its target the next night.
Mafias talk during the Night.
Watchers can tell who visited their target's house.
Trackers can see who their target targetted.
Maniac can poison one person during Day Phase, which kills the target during the next night phase.

Let's get this show on the road.

Nominate

[gandalf5166]

I'm fine with janitors so long as their targets ALIGNMENT flip.

[gandalf5166]

That game feels like a massclaim D1 might actually be a good idea, which is BAD.

[gandalf5166]

TBH, I'm not sure that the average town would REALIZE that eliminating one team as fast as possible is a good idea.

[gandalf5166]

You'd be surprised, actually. I've made similar conclusions on setups, then gotten lynched for it(I can't even remember how said lynch is usually justified) and then subsequently had everybody ignore what I said. Most notable example:

7p vengeful. We had two people we wanted to lynch, one of them was shotty. It was at 6p. We were less certain about shotty-scum than we were about other person-scum, so everyone wanted to lynch other person. I break in and say: Hey, shouldn't we lynch shotty because we want other person to have the vengeshot, not shotty, right? Instead, everybody lynches me for ZOMG ORDERING AROUND TOWN. As it happens, the other person WAS scum, and shotty was town, but we still lost essentially because we didn't follow my plan, because shotty got lynched in 3p, when if we hadn't lynched me just because I was making sense, we could have had another lynch AFTER that.

[gandalf5166]

executioner?

[gandalf5166]

There's a setup LIKE that already called polygamist that has four pairs of lovers and one group of 4 mafia that are all lovers with each other. It's VERY hard for mafia. Doesn't mean I didn't win it though.

So the idea has been done, so you know.

[gandalf5166]

The problem there is that it's the best idea for both lover pairs to claim D1, so that they have a 50% chance of lynching scum.

[gandalf5166]

Of course, if they get it wrong D1, then D3 they ARE left with 3 players. So worse results if they DO fail, but a much lower probability of it happening. And even if they get it right, scum shoots the other pair and they're at 5p.

[gandalf5166]

@Tragedy: Gunsmiths don't work that way? Gunsmiths check whether they have a gun or not. All Mafia (and the Fisherman, if he has a gun) would get a "Gun Detected" Result, no matter if they did the kill or not.

Yes, but HIS gunsmith works that way.

[gandalf5166]

So the BP-giver is just a doc without a backup?

I'm not sure I like the randomness in the fisherman. :/

[gandalf5166]

Yes, but I don't like the role of fisherman.

[gandalf5166]

There's no point to the roleblocker there....... What does the rolecop get when he looks at the mafia?

[gandalf5166]

either vanilla or roleblocker. And the point of the roleblocker is to block the cop/doc

But when there's only one power role...... Why wouldn't they just kill him?

[gandalf5166]

either vanilla or roleblocker. And the point of the roleblocker is to block the cop/doc

But when there's only one power role...... Why wouldn't they just kill him?

Only if he was dumb enough to claim...

So you're saying that they couldn't find him unless he claimed?

[gandalf5166]

The Macho townie does not die if protected, he just isn't protected...
This game centers around multiple townies. Also the Role Cop/Doctor doesn't have to use both abilities in one night.
I think the different use of townies is a different take on townies when mixed with the rolecop/doc.

Also I was thinking that maybe if the role cop investigated a townie then he would have the choice of telling the person what type of townie they are.

Thus making him confirmable?

BAD IDEA SON

[gandalf5166]

Friends and enemies isn't nightless though is it?

No, but ICE's point is that even days are essentially the mafia kill.

[gandalf5166]

Comparing that to a kill seems extremely unfair and not at all accurate, to me, but okay.

Yeah, I'm not really sure that I agree, but that was his point.

[gandalf5166]

NL's are generally not allowed in nightless games.

[gandalf5166]

It's nightless. There is no nightkill.

[gandalf5166]

Second Jester Nightless

I think that the mafia SHOULD know, and that the game should only end once the jester AND the mafia are gone.

[gandalf5166]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

[gandalf5166]

Actually Crazy, I think that's probably too HIGH of a mafia win rate >.>

Really? I know that I consider the town's win con is in the right place and the same is true for the jester.

Isn't it usually standard practice for mafia to have a lower WR than town, since mafia have an inherent advantage?

[gandalf5166]

It's the other way around, isn't it >.>

[gandalf5166]

The small text made me lose respect for the entire rest of the post.

[gandalf5166]

I misinterpreted that as simply acknowledging the fact that the goon in vengeful isn't quite the same as a jester.

[gandalf5166]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

But why would scum do that? That's taking a LOT of risk.

[gandalf5166]

Ah, well. I still think Jester games should not be allowed in the open database, or for any game for that matter without explicit warning from the mod that there may be a jester in the game so people who dont want to play with one know to avoid the game.

Let say that day one in scum says "im the jester" in his first post. The jester counter claims. Boom setup broken. Town now has a 50-50 chance of winning the game and a 50-50 chance of losing the game. Zero skill involved from here on.

Er...no. You lynch a random non-jester claimant twice and then you lynch the scum.

Oh, and there's that.

[gandalf5166]

I don't see why mafia has to be "lynch the person who's not town". Mafia has always been to me about reading other players' intentions. Whether or not their intentions are to die or to stay alive is irrelevant, it just adds another layer of play.

[gandalf5166]

Well, there are some people who think that serial killers aren't mafia, because mafia is about connections. I think everyone has their own idea of what mafia is about, and I think asking that certain types of setups should be banned from the open queue simply because they don't conform to your idea of mafia is kind of unreasonable.

[gandalf5166]

Empking's Operation

2 Mafia Doctors (Don't get a kill)

3 Doctors
3 Townies

If an even number of "Doctors" target the same player then that player dies.

I actually like that far better than the old one.

[gandalf5166]

So is self-protecting allowed?

[gandalf5166]

Masons and Monks

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
2 Masons
2 Monks
4 Townies

People who are not werewolves are monks.

People who are not mafia are masons.

Masons and monks are not aware of the other person's role.

Night Start.

[*]Setup Made By Fiasco

This is already a setup on here.

[gandalf5166]

Masons and Monks

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
2 Masons
2 Monks
4 Townies

People who are not werewolves are monks.

People who are not mafia are masons.

Masons and monks are not aware of the other person's role.

Night Start.

[*]Setup Made By Fiasco

This is already a setup on here.

I know. I forgot this isn't where you nominate a setup. Where is that actually? The queue?

This IS where you nominate a setup. What I'm telling you is that this setup has already been approved.

[gandalf5166]

You have two kills a night, 7 townies.

D1 - Mislynch (6-4 going into night)
N1 - 2 Townies die (4-4 going into day)

Scum win.

But scum don't know each other, so the only way they could win in that situation is by claiming scum...........

[gandalf5166]

No, firefighters are docs against arsonists, and FBI agents locate cannibals. You're right about the psychiatrist though, it DOES turn the psychopath into a VT. The main problem with the IDEA of that setup is that the roles have no way to know which SK they're targeting.

[gandalf5166]

They should get a PM telling them which one they are after?

My point is that if you're the psychiatrist, how are you supposed to specifically find the psychopath? Or as the FF, how are you supposed to guess who the arsonist will kill?

[gandalf5166]

If you are a doctor how are supposed to guess who the mafia will kill?

Easy. You look at players and see who the mafia would want to eliminate. But with the arsonist, it's different. The goal of an SK is for as many people to die each night as possible. So you kill people that most wouldn't kill. And when you have three people doing that, and only one that you can protect against, it's already hard to find a target that's going to be targeted at all, throwing in the fact that there's only a 1/3 chance of protecting against the right kill and there's no way of figuring who the arsonist in particular would be likely to kill, and there's little to no purpose for him even being there.

[gandalf5166]

Yeah, it's basically forcing LyLo as soon as it happens. I like it. Very much. I don't know if it's balanced at all. If the TOH dies AND the last mafia dies on the same night, who wins?

[gandalf5166]

I LIKE IT.

[gandalf5166]

Maybe if it was random which one died :/

[gandalf5166]

That idea has been done before in Hard Boiled, but more complex and with more distractions. Just telling you that, not saying it's a bad idea to make a simpler version. Although two cops might still be a bit much.

[gandalf5166]

Now, the psychiatrist would convert them to town? Would their buddy know?

[gandalf5166]

So what happens if the SK is converted?

[gandalf5166]

If the doc protects the lover that isn't killed, will it save them?

[gandalf5166]

Wait, so is that choice made independently of the other member?

[gandalf5166]

What's the benefit in killing off your Lover? If they're of confirmed alignment to you, why wouldn't you just choose "no action"?

Because if they're going to get NK'd, you'll die too.

[gandalf5166]

And if they both decide to off the other? That's potentially seven deaths in a single night.

Go town.

Both people have to agree that someone will die. Then after that random.org will choose who dies.

Oh, that's stupid.