[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Andrius]

Ok I have a briliant IDEA!!!!!
14 are People required

• Town has
  2 town
  1 Vigilanty
  1 cop
  1 doctor(the reason for both cop and doc is because there is an SK and a Mafia killer a follow the cop strategy won't work.)
  1 nurse
  1 Day doctor(during the night he pm's the mod the name of a person, it has no effects during the night, but if both the doctor and his patient survive the night if his patient gets lynched the next day, he is saved and night starts)
  They win when Mafia and Crazies are gone.
  
  Crazy people consist of
  1 SK
  1 Brain washed body gaurd(knows who the SK is and each night has an opertunity to save the SK, but if the SK wasn't being attacked the Gaurd dies if SK dies he becomes SK)
  They win when it is only them alive,
  
  Mafia consists of
  1 Head of Mafia(Kills one person each night)
  1 Crooked Cop( same as cop but works for Mafia, Knows who real cop is but the only mafia member he knows is the Head Mafia man)
  1 Roleblocker
  1 Bodygaurd(Mafia Doctor, can save one person, but not himself)
  1 Suicide bomber( sililar to a PGO, if this player gets lynched during the day the person who hammered get blown up and dies, but nothing happens if he is night killed.)
  They win when only them remain

Ok thats my game please nominate if you like it.

Day Doctor is useless. He basically saves someone from a lynch, but its a bad town role, because he'd be saving someone the town wants DEAD.

Drop the SK-Bodyguard. He's useless; how does the BG become SK if he is constantly protecting the SK? Make the SK some type of BP and drop BG.

Crooked Cop is broken. He's a mafia member who knows who the good Cop is? Can you say insta-N1 kill?

Suicide Bomber is essentially a Mafia Supersaint. Which has the potential to DESTROY balance in this game. 3 NKs and a Mafia SuperSaint?

[Andrius]

Good first point, but I disagree we the second. He becomes SK if SK is lynched or night killed. He doesn't have protect him because if he does, but the SK wasn't being killed then he dies. Good third point he should be a private investigator instead, still only knows who head of the mafia is though, and cant use QT. The other thing is, that the mafia wouldn't know who the PI is. DD should just become a second doctor. And the other thing is that you still NK the SB.
Would it work with the above edits?

The whole point of being a Serial Killer is to be alone. What you have is- essentially a 2nd mafia faction with a Suicidal Mafioso (has to make the kill or he dies) and a Mafia Bodyguard protecting him.

Private Investigator is still semi-useless. The GF would tell him the other mafioso, and the mafioso would know who he is. You can't really stop that from happening. Either make him a full Mafia Traitor or just a Goon.

[Andrius]

Revised:

Town has
2 town
1 Vig
1 cop
2 doctor
1 nurse

Crazy people consist of
1 Suicidal Maf.
1 Maf. Bodyguard

Mafia consists of
1 Godfather
1 Maf. RB
1 Maf. Bodyguard
1 Maf. Suicide Bomber
1 Maf. Traitor

New problem: Mafia is too strong. Period. The larger mafia needs to lose like... 3 members, or you add LOADS of townies.

A mislynch D1 means town loses.

There are 3 NKs and 2 Docs. Town cannot win. Period. This setup probably needs to get cann'd and revised majorly if you want to see it actually played.

Of all the problems this setup has, this is the biggest: there are 14 players. 7 are town. 7 are not. It all boils down to that. Even if they were all VTs and Maf. Goons, it would be HELL for the town.

[Andrius]

Take out the traitor and out in one more VT and a this, I had an idea for a character called a biochemist and something like that and each night he can chose ine player to suddate and that person is in active for the following day but cant be lynched, if you want his night ability, if present can be cancled too. If you dont like that I could just add 2 vts

You have to drop anti-town players. Town cannot last more than 1 cycle in the current setup.

Even if you added 2 VTs and dropped the Maf. Traitor, you're still looking at 3 NKs and a lynch each cycle. That's 4 kills.
You'd have a total of 15 players. 9 town 6 anti-town. With 4 kills the big mafia can easily overtake the town.

You have to understand that with 16 players in a game, there can be no more than 4 anti-town players without SEVERE town power.

[Andrius]

4 doctors?

You'd have to elaborate on how you'd put them into the setup. Whether they'd be new slots or old slots converted into Docs.

You should probably practice making smaller, less powerful setups, and then go up from there. The first setup I designed (for fun) was a 24 player game based on The Godfather with two rival mafia factions that started out with 6 members each and they could both recruit 3 members from a pool. (Only later did I figure out that alignment-changing roles were bastard.)

[Andrius]

All doctors would start active

Not what I meant.

In this "game" here, post all the town roles plzkthx.

I'll teach you game design and balance for a little while longer.

[Andrius]

You're still looking at 8 v. 6.

4 Doctors is insane, BTW. That's a shit-load of protections going around, not counting the Nurses (Like you need those?) and the Maf. Bodyguards.

Worst case scenario 1: Town is DESTROYED by D2. Mis-lynch D1. Happens in most games. N1 there are 3 kills going around. If all 3 kills hit townies, GAME OVER. Large_Mafia wins.
Worst case scenario 2: Doctors are psychics and block ALL kills ALL THE TIME. Game gets old, stale.

Now you may say that the 4 protections will block out the 3 NKs. Even if only one kill connects, on a townie, then its 6 v 6. Hardly fair for the town. Another mislynch = GAME OVER.

Most games operate under the premise of: town loses if they mislynch twice. With your game, town can lose if they mislynch ONCE. (Hell, if town No Lynches they can lose.)

This setup has major holes, and cannot be run as is. With MAJOR modifications it could work. Basically, you have too many Docs, not enough townies (VTs and overall Ts), a doomed mafia faction and a mafia that is too large and powerful for the town to compete.

[Andrius]

Dropping crazies would help.
Nurses to VTs would help too.

Deputy is not needed. You still have 4 Docs.
NO PGO. NO NO NO. With the majority of your town as PRs? You're

asking

for a massacre with a PGO.

How about:
2 Docs
1 Cop
1 Vigilante
5 VTs

Mafia Godfather
Mafia Bodyguard
Mafia Roleblocker

Much simpler, better, more balanced setup than the chaos at the top of the page.

[Andrius]

2 Docs
1 Cop
1 Vigilante
6 VTs

Mafia Godfather
Mafia Bodyguard
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Suicide Bomber

Meh. I'm too tired ATM, but it still seems unbalanced. I personally don't like the Suicide Bomber. :/
Going to go finish killing some Tattaglias in The Godfather then I'm off to bed.

[Andrius]

And sorry for taking up the better part of page 64 with me trying to fix a semi-impossible setup, everyone else. >_>
At least I was nicer than some people would have been. lol

[Andrius]

Andrius, you have the patience of a (Super)Saint.

lol Thanks Flay. /good deed for the day

[Andrius]

Let me just say though, that Mafia Martyr can be a problem. Having a mafioso die for another mafioso will IMMEDIATELY give away shenanigans, and in an Open Setup, where there are no Bus Drivers/ Redirectors that any misdirected kill will be insta-seen as scum.

I'd say drop the Martyr.

And if you really want to see how a Mafia Bodyguard/Martyr screws the "saved" player over, go see what happened to me in Greek Mythology after Plum took a lynch for me. (Though I was able to pass Jack as a lynch-redirector.)

[Andrius]

I personally love Bodyguards.

It would have to be a closed setup. No way this could work as an Open, let alone get approved. Bodyguard works until a Doc is outed. Then he protects the Doc.


Sooo, my turn to mod an open is almost here, and i'd really love to mod a C9++. *SUBTLEHINTHINT*

[Andrius]

PShhh. C9++ can have 3 Vigilantes, SK, and Mafia. D'oh. Best game ever! lol

[Andrius]

Sooo, my turn to mod an open is almost here, and i'd really love to mod a C9++. *SUBTLEHINTHINT*

I can't speak for farside, but since there are two C9++ setups that just started, I doubt you'll get one, too. (But it could happen, I guess. If it does, I'm

so

/in.)

Yeah I know. I was just saying. lol Vengeful would be cool too. Lots of killing there as well.
But C9++ has become a favorite of mine. The posibilities are literally endless. And given that its completely balanced within itself, you can easily use it for Mini Normals/Mini Themes as a way of balance, and just model flavor around it.
C9++ is my favorite open setup ATM.

[Andrius]

C9++ is my favorite open setup ATM.

QFT.

Along the lines of the Ninja Mafia setup, could C9++ be doubled and run as a Large?

WHEW. Welp. I don't see why not... :/

Ok. Going to go get stuff done. lol

[Andrius]

All the info for C9++ is on the wiki right? What ways does it need to be changed?

Yeah, its all on the wiki page. I'd also like to know its potential changes.

[Andrius]

ok how about Ability Mafia
4 cops
2 docs
1 one shot day vig

1 Goon
2 Mafia PGO's

Ok. Let's take this one step at a time.
D1 will most likely be a townie lynch.
Also, there will be a shitload of Cops, because the scum will be forced to claim Cop/Doc.
Massclaim D1 would be HELL. All scum would claim Doc/Cop, which would make HELL.
D1 = town lynch.

N1 is a shit-storm.
If the town is unlucky, 2 or more Cops target the PGOs and are killed. With the nightkill (assuming it goes through), the game is over, as the mafia equals the number of townies.

BREAKING STRATEGY:

MASSCLAIM D1. All Cops claim. D2 they reveal their results. Mass town-confirmage makes the game uber-hard.

If the scum have PGOs they shouldn't have a NK.
And really, 4 Cops is too much. Mass town-confirmage would win the day.

[Andrius]

ok no goon 2 cops 2 townies

Dropping the Goon doesn't help much.
Hell, it doesn't help at all, really.
You still have two scum PGOs, which will average about one extra kill a night, besides for the normal NK.

You still have 2 Cops and 2 Docs. The Cops are pretty much useless. The only people they can investigate are scum PGOs, who kill them on-site. The Cop would have to claim in-thread, announce his NP target, in order to actually get the town to benefit from him. At that, he's sacrificing himself.

Scum PGO is just a bad idea.

I'm totally willing to help you with setups, but a scum PGO isn't something that will work in an Open game.

[Andrius]

If mafia attempt to pass to another mafia member, the one passing the baton is killed (if mafia outnumber the town they can suicide chain to win the game).

This part is just confusing. :S Clarify please?

[Andrius]

ok no goon 2 cops 2 townies

Dropping the Goon doesn't help much.
Hell, it doesn't help at all, really.
You still have two scum PGOs, which will average about one extra kill a night, besides for the normal NK.

You still have 2 Cops and 2 Docs. The Cops are pretty much useless. The only people they can investigate are scum PGOs, who kill them on-site. The Cop would have to claim in-thread, announce his NP target, in order to actually get the town to benefit from him. At that, he's sacrificing himself.

Scum PGO is just a bad idea.

I'm totally willing to help you with setups, but a scum PGO isn't something that will work in an Open game.

Ok how about
2 mafia PGOs

1 doc
4 cops
3 trackers

Scum PGOs are a bad idea.
You have 8 town PRs who will all make one visit. Chances are that 1-2 will visit scum. That means 1-2 will die, on top of the mafia NK.
With a probable town lynch D1, that puts it at 4 dead townies by D2.
Worst case scenario is that a ton of townies visit the PGOs, and are blown to bits.

Scum PGOs are just a bad idea, Dr.

[Andrius]

Ok just one mafia PGO
and 7 trackers, game starts at night 0

So you're at one scum. One scum PGO.
and 7 trackers.

Starting on N0 is no different from starting on D1 here:
The setup still has problems.
1) The town should just make a visitation plan, like visiting the person underneath them, and it'll be obvious as to who is scum PGO by who dies.
2) Scum PGO is a bad idea.

[Andrius]

Does the scum still get a factional kill?

If you're talking about Dr's setup, they'd have to, else the town just does visitation and they lynch scum D2- guaranteed.

[Andrius]

Friends and enemies and enemies and enimies, and more enemies.
1 God Father
1 Role blocker
1 Mafia Bomb

3 Wear wolfs

1 Sk

1 Third Party Imune Lightning Rod holder (can only be NK'd by SK, has 3 shots, roleblocks do not work on him)

1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Nurse
1 one shot day vig.
6 VT's

You're getting there. Slowly. lol

What's the point of the 3rd party lightning rod? And why would he

want

to use his ability? If he can only die via SK and lynch, he would never use his ability. Also, how does he win? Is he a Survivor or what?
Werewolves are underpowered next to the mafia faction.

Is the SK bulletproof? Is he investigation-immune? What "perks" does he have? Can the Bomb kill the SK? The lightning rod?

This game would be a NP killfest. Three kills each night, with 2 preventative roles (RB, Doc). If the SK is immune to the Bomb then the bomb only functions as a anti-crosskill device, making the werewolves even more underpowered.

[Andrius]

No he can't. lol

[Andrius]

@Andrius:

What if he was able to give people a ligtning rod?

Why the hell would he do that? Its essentially the same thing as killing the people.
If the people receiving the lightning rod saps all kills, then they die. Its the same thing as killing someone. >_>

[Andrius]

@Andrius:

What if he was able to give people a ligtning rod?

Why the hell would he do that? Its essentially the same thing as killing the people.
If the people receiving the lightning rod saps all kills, then they die. Its the same thing as killing someone. >_>

It gives him a chance to win, first of all. And, since he's 3rd party, he'd wnat to kill them.

But the kid never specified what role he was. Is he a SK or a Survivor? He already has a SK in the setup, so.
The last thing and SK needs is another SK.

[Andrius]

No d'oh. Whoever he uses it on is guaranteed dead.

Lightning Rod is a bad role in most situations, but it does have its uses, and one of them isn't give-a-lightning-rod-to-another-player.

[Andrius]

No d'oh. Whoever he uses it on is guaranteed dead.

Lightning Rod is a bad role in most situations, but it does have its uses, and one of them isn't give-a-lightning-rod-to-another-player.

However, Lightning rod riber can ge good as mafia. If mafia has an info role like watcher.

True. But giving out lightning rods is incredibly broken for mafia watcher.

[Andrius]

What is yall's opinions on 20 person game with three playing threads and no night phases. Mafia has day kills for each phase.

Hrm. Kinda' the wrong place for this, DeathNote (BTW you're still awesome), but you'd have to explain how the three threads would work. :S Do people jump from thread to thread or what?

Because I'd totally love to help out, but I'd love to play too, so.
Especially if I get to be Hades again.

[Andrius]

You could do a Good Cop, Bad Cop with some Cop Sanities and perhaps a Dirty Cop (Vigilante), and a Crooked Cop (Mafia RoleCop). That'd be fun.

[Andrius]

Broken by Cop/Doc combo. Each day Cop claims, Doc silently protects him. When the Mafia isn't RB, then they can't do anything.
Also, if there's ever a day when someone doesn't claim Cop, you know that the scum has it, and you then RB/Track/JK whoever didn't claim/hasn't had the Cop yet.

[Andrius]

It was a nice and peaceful day in the town of Shottyville, when a man decided he wanted to get married. So he went to shotty strips Gentleman's Cub. But sudenly, the lights go black and a scream is heard. When the lights come back on, all the doors are locked and all to be seen it a dead Waiter hanging from the ceiling. After a few seconds, a note falls out of his pocket that reads.
"You will never leave
We will kill you all
The only way out is to get all three keys
-Signed
The Owner"

Welcome to

Trapped in a Gentleman's Club Mafia

The town wins when all threats to the town are eliminated, or for flavor sake, all three parts of the key are acquired.

town

6 Gentlemen(VT)
1 Groom to be(Haas a QT with Best man)
1 Best man to be(Qt with Groom)
1 drunk cop(50/50 chance of getting the result, he will get the truth but only have a 50% chance of getting it. If he doesn't get it he recieves a pm saying sorry)
1 DJ(can watch a person)
1 Creeper(Track someone at night, but if the person they track gets NK'd they too die)
1 Gambling addict(Each night they can pm the mod the name of a person who they think will get lynched the next day. If they are right, then that person lives, but if he is wrong then he will show up as a guilty on cop reports that night.)

3rd party

Bar Tender(Each night he may either poison someone's drink(kill them), watch them, or track them. He can not use the same choice twice in a row)

Mafia

1 Owner(God Father)
1 Bouncer(Role Blocker)
1 Hooker(Each night she may kiss some one, and if that person is kissed then their ability will fail, and will show up as guilty on cop reports)

Given that its become habit of me to critique shotty's setups:

1) The note is signed "The Owner". In a massclaim, the person who claims "The Owner" will be auto-scum.
2) You have- essentially- a Mafia Framer and a Self-Framer, while the Cop isn't even a full Cop. Randomocity sucks; make him Odd-Night or Even-Night Cop for no random elements.
3) You have 2 Roleblockers in the Mafia faction.
4) All the people who work in the club are scum. Massclaim can break it.

5) When does the Bartender win?
6) Are the best man and groom masons, or neighbors?

[Andrius]

If this is run as an open set up then mass claim would kill it any way, so scum would just claim gentleman.
Odd night cop sounds good.
Didn't mean to do that. Get rid of bouncer and make him a vannilla mafia member
Yes that was the point and mass claim always kills scum if they claim scum
When he is all alone, or if one mafia one town and him remain he wins.
Nieghbors

True.
Better.
Mafia Goon then.
Ok.
Normal, but with a mafia there... is SK bulletproof? Is the Maf. Godfather I.I. or BP?
Meh.

I feel like this setup is near-balanced, but I'm not sure it could run as a open; the flavor would have to be dropped as a setup, added later.

[Andrius]

Ya I know and GF is I.I. and SK is bullet proof.
I put a lot of thought into this game. I kinda think it may be run better as a mini theme though. Thoughts?

If it can fit into a mini theme (aka, 12 players) it could work.

[Andrius]

You don't fail at all, actually.
So, while we're here, go ahead and cut the setup down to 12 players.

[Andrius]

town

4 Gentlemen(VT)
1 Groom to be(Haas a QT with Best man)
1 Best man to be(Qt with Groom)
1 Odd Night cop
1 DJ(can watch a person)
1 Creeper(Track someone at night, but if the person they track gets NK'd they too die)

3rd party

Bar Tender(Each night he may either poison someone's drink(kill them), watch them, or track them. He can not use the same choice twice in a row)

Mafia

1 Owner(God Father)
1 Hooker(Each night she may kiss some one, and if that person is kissed then their ability will fail, and will show up as guilty on cop reports)

Maybe this?

I'd *actually* consider making bestman/groom masons, since the watcher is usually a scum role.
Though the SK has a bit too much power IMO. Killer/Tracker/Watcher/BP.

[Andrius]

Drop the Cop, make those 2 guys Masons.
Everyone loves masons.

[Andrius]

Shotty, the lovers would just name-claim in their QTs and solve the problem.
Also, blind cop is somewhat lame. Get a real cop.
Next, all the lovers have to do is claim, and you've got instant masons, as the scum/SK are not lovers.

BROKEN.

[Andrius]

Shotty, the lovers would just name-claim in their QTs and solve the problem.
Also, blind cop is somewhat lame. Get a real cop.
Next, all the lovers have to do is claim, and you've got instant masons, as the scum/SK are not lovers.

BROKEN.

true, but they could be restricted and not allowed to name claim, but then again who would enforce it

The Mod would, and he'd have to be BRUTAL. Take Donkey Kong Mafia for example. The mod banned name-claiming, and he had to modkill 2 townies because they name-claimed. That really hurt the town, IMO.

So yeah. Having 4 masons is bad in an open. New setup.

[Andrius]

that's why the mod would have to be strict
like fate

NO. THAT WILL NOT WORK.
Sorry dude, but there is no way to control that game without MODKILLS FROM HEAVEN or MASS REPLACING.
You can't control a group like that.

[Andrius]

Shotty, two Serial Killers with a shared kill, as mason-lovers (?!?) is just a scumteam that's compromised of lovers.

Also, PR passing will make this game a BITCH for the scum, so.

[Andrius]

Andrius, it's PR passing with the lynch, but with a NK it dies. Or at least that's my understanding. I think adding one extra goon might make it viable.

Sounds like a vague shade of Trader Mafia...

you mind posting the setup again with updates?

[Andrius]

Can PRs pass to non-townies?

[Andrius]

but they couldnt really could they?
and confirmed town would make it ballanced because of the 3 nk's

NO. MASSCLAIM MEANS BREAKAGE.

[Andrius]

Setup Name: Molehill Mafia

I just ran this setup in this game. The setup is a 10:2 mountainous game, but with one modification to the vanilla/goon roles. Each player has a ranking from 1-12, and during night phases, they are allowed to target another player, making everyone a neighborizer. Anyone who targets a lower ranked player starts a QT with them. Mafia ranks can be randomized and work in any spot.

This is just a small modification to bring life back into the classic mountainous setup, a way to keep the interest in the game that is normally lost by most people who draw vanilla roles. I think this makes a good open setup, as its simple, yet still allows for heavy flavor addition for the mod while sticking to a setup that is balanced. A good inbetween setup for the open and the theme games.

I support this.

[Andrius]

Ok, I LOVE the idea of a Currency system.
I'd totally help play in/design a game with one, because I love strategy.

And I LOVE the negative points aspect. Though Hated Townies should be in there too.

I think you should start as a Mini. And if you don't do it I'll consider modding it. Perhaps with bv? *prod*

I don't want to plague the thread with little "vig should be higher/bomb lower" comments, but if someone wants to seriously work on it I'm down to help.

[Andrius]

A Mini? I don't think you'd get the full interaction at 12 players.

True, but generally you start small and see how it works, then move up.
Ala Trader Mafia.

But yeah, if we go large let's try 16 or so first. Don't want to hit 24/28 and be UNSTOPPABLE. lol

[Andrius]

Pfffft. Nobody Special wants to try a 100-man game. XD

But yeah. If this ever gets SRS BSNS I'm in to help out.
Until that time, I'm going to continue hammering out this large theme.

[Andrius]

Beefster's allows for MASS point gaining, which could mean everyone as a Vig/Cop etc.
Breakage.

Just having X amt. of points and gaining 1 a night or something is fine. You should check out Trader Mafia in that regard

[Andrius]

Ok, Shotty.
The only thing I have time to say right now is that you're not designing OPEN games.

I haven't looked at it to balance it for actual BALANCE, but that is NOT an OPEN game.

[Andrius]

Because the scum can't fakeclaim well enough.
The Methodist and Puritan can be proven by their actions. Aka, confirmed town. Same with doublevoter.

[Andrius]

And you have two Serial Killers and no Doctors.
Even if this wasn't open there are still gaping holes in the setup.

edit: What you're doing is giving the mafia extra kills in the hopes it will balance with the 2 SKs without taking into account that the town is defenseless and powerless against kills bouncing off the walls.

[Andrius]

Seriously, run this in chat/marathon and see how it plays out.

FTFY

Hell, run it like I run setups in trial runs.
Using the setup and basic logic it isn't hard to see how the setup can fare.

[Andrius]

So Hero should we never talk about a game that has a mafia goon in it due to the fact that a newbie game is running?

Mafia Goon is not an original role, Shotty.
Now please, show some respect.

[Andrius]

Its

not

a known role, Shotty. That's the point.

[Andrius]

You don't.
Please stop arguing.

[Andrius]

The problem is you're talking about an on-going game.

[Andrius]

No, you're the one who posted the setup.

[/conversation over]

[Andrius]

Why two seers?

[Andrius]

Makes alot of sense, Emp.
I mean, they could eat the wolves alive N1, but I get the point.

It feels odd without a RB, but yeah. :/

[Andrius]

It would be an honor, sir.

Nominate: Scum 9p

[Andrius]

1) Mafia-Killing SK is called a Vig.

2) Nightless is no different from normal, save insta-kills. That's not exactly a big change. And having "Godfathers" when there is no advantage to being a GF is lol-worthy. Might as well make them all Mafia RoleCop.

3) What exactly are "restless" roles?

[Andrius]

1) No he doesn't. He wins with the town. Because both of them win when the scum are dead.
He's a vig.
And a horrid role for an Open setup. lol Whoever claims him claims 3rd party, and is confirmed town because he wins with them.
Would you allow a joint-win?

2) Fine. Do the scumbags have a kill?

3) Oh. Huh. You realize I could vote the entire day, not just once, yes?

[Andrius]

mafia killing SK would be a horrible role to draw and I don't quite get why you put it in.

I'd be very upset if I couldn't kill townies.

I'd also be upset to draw non-town at all, so.

[Andrius]

Are there any I like or any I'd play?
Because I don't really do many non-theme games.

[Andrius]

Shotty's Final Attempt 13P Mafia

2 Goons
1 RB

2 Cops/Doctors(So you could have 2 Docs, 2 Cops, or 1 of each)
6 Townies
3 Masons(One is one of the goons.)

They're not Masons if one is scum, Shotty.

[Andrius]

No they are just not confirmed masons. I've played plenty of games with one of the masons being scum.

Non-confirmed Masons are "Neighbors".
Masons are alignment-confirmed.

[Andrius]

Shotty, Mr. Flay, THE Mr. Flay just told you your game isn't balanced.

It isn't. What happens when you get two Cops and no scum in the Neighborhood? Helloooo Masonry in a mini.
You're not willing to listen to us, so don't bother posting in here until you're ready to take advice- and criticism- from people who actually know what they're talking about. (Aka, Flay.)

-The Baker

[Andrius]

Seriously, has anyone here ever heard the phrase, "don't feed the troll?"

Take it to heart.

Time to look up that Friend/Foe thing...

[Andrius]

So how exactly are roles "given out"?
Any plans for a Scum Vig?
How about them Scum Masons? I heard they're pretty bastard.

[Andrius]

Wait.
So there's NO other scum power?

[Andrius]

Tragedy, shut up. You're not helping.

BUT as long as the janitor is alive, the mafia is the only one who noes who the NK was.

Explain this. Its pretty obvious who died.

The point is, you have massive openings for town power. A Cop and MULTIPLE DOCS without a Mafia RB? Broken.
Masons and a Cop/Tracker/Watcher?

The scum are 100% vulnerable to the old-as-hell-itself Cop/Doc combo without a RB.
And with Masons/Tracker/Watcher/Vig and TWO mafia things will get ugly.

[Andrius]

Does the SK have any immunities?

[Andrius]

And why exactly is the RB Bulletproof?

[Andrius]

So? That doesn't mean he needs to be BP.
Especially when you're not guaranteed anything to kill him with.

Maybe.

Meh. For me, this is semblant of C9++ too much to attempt to see it as much different from it. C9++ is even a night-start, so the only thing you have over C9 is the Janitor and Trackers/Watchers. :/

Scum can get boned really easily in this game.
Especially with Cop and Doc

, loads of informative roles (MASONS). Trackers and Watchers GREATLY hinder anti-town forces, especially when, unlike in C9++, they can't just claim anything since there are town roles to keep them honest.

Scum can get boned by the role distribution too.

[Andrius]

Then the scum deserve to lose N1.
Seriously.
You don't plan for the worst-case scenario and then cater the whole setup around it. The players themselves have to take some responsibility for their play and claim in the game.

Though I admit I did forget about the Janitor thing.
But regardless.
Shotty, you are scum in your game.
D1 you, as usual ( ), are brought to L-1.
What do you claim, and why?

[Andrius]

I don't have the willpower to sit here and debate this.
I'm going to study. Grab someone else in the meanwhile.
Goddamn, I need sleep.

[Andrius]

Shotty, you have 2 pairs of masons.

And what's with this massive push for Janitors?

[Andrius]

Lovers are masons in a MC.
Also, Janitors help not-so-open become more open.

[Andrius]

And what's with this massive push for Janitors?

They are now a crutch to compensate for design flaws.

Evidentially.
I agree with you though.

[Andrius]

Chrono:
D1: All lovers claim.
Lynch from the non-lover claimants.
N1:
Scum either kill the town lovers and thereby sacrifice their own lover, or they kill from the VTs. Keep lynching from the VTs until scum shoot the lovers.

[Andrius]

chkflip: What's the point of the Miller?

[Andrius]

I'm not sure which setup I'd pick as the first goon. Having two teammates gives greater control of the lynch, but also increases the chances of my partner being lynched as there is two targets for town to find as opposed to one.

I really like this idea/mechanic/whatsitcalled.

Because it gives the player more power, and no one knows a player better than the one in the mirror.

[Andrius]

Why do you have a janitor?

Also, the only thing the Watcher can watch is mafia and the vig. So if he sees anyone target anyone else then he's got either a vig or scum. Good odds for him.

[Andrius]

Janitor is there in case the mafia want to kill there own guy after he counter claims Beloved P

Which is a ridiculous move.
Scum wouldn't SHOOT a BP because the same effect doesn't work at night.
So by scum shooting someone they prove the other person as TRUE BP.

THE POINT: If your game has to have a Janitor to balance the scum and/or allow them to safeclaim then you need another solution. Janitor is NOT a solution to the problem.