[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Herodotus]

Working on a concept - how is this for balance?

Gunfighters Mafia: 12 players

2 Vig/Lover pairs
5 VT
1 Mafia Doctor
2 Mafia Goons

Both vigilantes are lovers with a townie; the pairs win with town only if the other vigilante pair dies before them.

no
3 kills in one night.
vigs both kill at VT
mafia kills vig lover
it's lylo day 2.

D1: VT lynch
N1: someone kills a lover from group 1, someone else kills a lover from group 2, and someone kills a VT. 3 scum, 3 VT's are alive and the game is over.

[Herodotus]

Your numbers were fine, I was just pointing out a more extreme situation.

[Herodotus]

There Is No "TEAM" In "I"

but there is an "I" in "VIGILANTE"

Mafia

2-3

Mafia Goons

5-7

Vanilla Townies

2-3

Hunters

Each hunter has a NK, and is on their own team (i.e. the hunters are not teamed together, so they don't know who each other are.) If a hunter shoots a mafia member, that hunter wins and is removed from the game. If a hunter shoots a townie, that hunter loses and is removed from the game. If they never shoot anyone, they lose at endgame. All NK's happen simultaneously, so a hunter who is killed by the mafia or another hunter could use their ability on that night. Day start.

Optional: If multiple hunters target the same person on the same night, the mod randomly chooses one who shoots first, and the other holds their shot.
Optional, to discourage hunters from claiming: When a hunter is lynched, day continues.
Optional, to discourage hunters from claiming: the mafia have a roleblock in addition to their kill, but can't use it on the same person on consecutive nights.

It's not necessarily right for the Open Queue, but how about as a marathon/quick game?

[Herodotus]

A hunter who has shot a hunter should probably lose, as if they'd hit a townie. Otherwise, all the hunters could break the game for each other by claiming (unless there was something to dissuade that.)

The hunter who is shot? Well, if they used their shot simultaneously, and they hit scum, they win. If they haven't used their shot, they will never be able to, so they will lose.

I suppose they could have NK-immunity instead.

[Herodotus]

I really don't like a single random diceroll deciding Win/Lose, and having to both hold your shot and lose the scum you correctly identified seems overly harsh. Is there a reason they can't both win on the same Scum, and both exit?

That was how I was seeing it, originally. The mod randomly choosing bit is optional. Part of the idea was to keep the town on odd numbers at the end of each night, but there are already other ways that could be interrupted.

[Herodotus]

I really like this idea lets work out what is best and I will have it up next time I do sign ups for the open games.

I don't know what would be best balanced. I tried to simulate 2 mafia, 5 townies, and 2 hunters, but the calculations for the possible NK's became intimidating quickly. My gut says that 2/6/2 or 2/7/2 would give both the town and mafia good chances of winning. I don't think the hunters' probability of winning depends very strongly on the number of townies. The more townies there are, the more they can afford to wait an extra night before making their kill.

[Herodotus]

Never mind, I was wrong about Slow Rusty Guillotine Mafia.

[Herodotus]

If he follows the doc and nothing happens to the player that the doc targeted he will realize player not dead and another player dead there is the doc

or the roleblocker

right there.

Then should they announce that result? If it was the doc, they're outed. If it was the RB, they'll claim doc, the doc will counterclaim.

[Herodotus]

Not quite mountainous:

2 Masons.
8 VTs.
2 Goons.

I thought it might be broken by a day 1 massclaim and random lynches, but it isn't. That gives the town about a .35 probability. If a VT is lynched and a VT is NKed night 1, the same strategy from day 2 gives the town about a .30 probability.

[Herodotus]

My impression was that someone had calculated that it was balanced with town having a win probability between .25 and .50 given random lynches, but that by coincidence town had never won.

Edit: from mith's spreadsheet in The Numbers Thread, town has a .3521 probability of winning 2:10 mountainous with random lynches.

[Herodotus]

Ah, I thought friends & enemies was exclusively 3/3, though I did recognize the similarity.

Thebuttonmen, I think the introduction of the masons is a good idea, as long as it doesn't create a breaking strategy and doesn't push the town beyond a .5-.6 win probability with random lynches.

[Herodotus]

DOUBLE F11... WELL, KIND OF

Split the 18-player game in two and independently generate each half. Half 1 is the standard F11; half 2 replaces the cop, doc, and roleblocker with a tracker, watcher, and ninja respectively. Then combine them back together.

For players who like lists:

1. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 cop, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 doctor, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 7 vanilla townies
2. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 1 tracker, 1 watcher, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 tracker, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 watcher, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 7 vanilla townies

What do you guys think?

There could also be a game with just the second half, a good name being

NINJA MAFIA

.

Are all the mafia teamed together? If so, it's probably unbalanced in favor of the scum. If not, it's probably unbalanced against them.
But it could be adjusted... maybe separate scumteams and deduct a VT from each half?

[Herodotus]

I thought mason meant confirmed town?

To some people, it does. To others, it doesn't. I'm starting to think that every mod should include a rule in their ruleset that says either

Any *masons* are guaranteed confirmed.

or

*Masons* may be confirmed or not.

And

the rule should be there regardless of whether there are masons in the game

, unless it's an open/semiopen game.

[Herodotus]

Question:

3 Paupers (

Vanilla Townies

)
2 Proprietors (

Goons

)
2 IRS Agents (

Cops

: 1 Sane/1 Insane)

Would this work?

How is scum supposed to win that?

By D3 both cops will have 2 usable results out of a 7 player game, unless scum hits cops N1 and/or N2 they pretty much auto lose.
By using flips and/or other cops results it's fairly easy to figure out which is the insane one and once that happens cop effectivly has 2 sane cops.

If a goon isn't lynched on day 1, day 2 is LyLo. Both cops will claim on day 2 (with a single result each) if they didn't have to claim day 1 to avoid being lynched.

I'm guessing sanity isn't revealed on death in this game?

EDIT: (That's assuming the town doesn't No Lynch for the first two days.)

[Herodotus]

Next, randomness in the SK role. MS doesn't really love randomness, so this won't make you loved (though it isn't necesarily a bad role).

The randomness can be eliminated. Have the SK send in their "preference" for their RB effect and their kill effect, and have some townie (in theory it should be a publicly specified one of the PR's, so that being the selector doesn't exacerbate the Named Townie effect that the game already has) decide whether to "reverse" the selection or not.

That replaces randomness with a minor WIFOM game.

I kinda like the FBI role, except that I think it should work against the mafia instead of the SK, because your mafia is stronger than your SK by far.

[Herodotus]

What if even/odd PGO's weren't told whether they were even or odd? That would allow the scum even more room for fakeclaiming (if you feel that would be a good thing.)

Vezopiraka's idea has some hidden potential (though I'd eliminate the chain-reaction "If a person hides with a person that dies they die too.")
If the players hid in a circle after mislynching a townie, the redirector could choose two people to redirect to themself, making a 3-player lylo. But they would have to choose logically based on how the circle was arranged, and the town could try to arrange the circle so that at least one prob-town player was alive.
Or the redirector could redirect the person who would be targeting them away and redirect another to themself. That would force a 5-player lylo, which isn't so good... maybe make the double-redirection 1-shot to fix this?
If the town pairs people... not sure, but it's probably similar.

[Herodotus]

If the town pairs people probably the redirector dies if he is one shot.

Because the person who hides with him dies and [two] other redirected pe[ople] die.

fixed

I think it would be something like:
R - H(1)
H(2) - H(3)
H(4) - H(5)

The redirector can redirect, for instance, H(3) and H(5) to themself, meaning R, H(2), and H(4) are alive the next day. The redirector gets to choose between H(2) and H(3), and between H(4) and H(5). Or they can redirect H(1) away from themself, and (optionally) one of the others to themself, or do nothing, in which case there will be 5 (or 6) players alive the next day with no direct role information.

In a circle:
R -> H(1) -> H(2) -> H(3) -> H(4) -> H(5) -> R

If the redirector redirected H(3) and H(4) to themself, then H(2) would be confirmed town the next day. If they redirected H(1) and H(2) to themself, then H(4) would be confirmed town the next day. If they redirected H(1) and H(4) to themself, then H(3) would be confirmed town the next day. Or they can redirect H(5) away from themself, and (optionally) one of the others to themself, or do nothing, in which case there will be 5 (or 6) players alive the next day with no direct role information.

Overall, I think the pairs are stronger, since the town can pair two people who are probably town and force the redirector to leave one of them alive.

Another option is for the redirector to redirect one hider to themself, meaning 4 players alive the next day, but 2 of them would be confirmed town.

I think if the town has no role information during the 5/6 player situation, that shouldn't be lylo. So the double redirector needs to be 1-shot, that is, they can only double-redirect during a single night.
In turn, the hiders probably all need to be 1-shot, or the redirector will be revealed by the night 2 results in the 5/6 player case (unless you want to rule out that case as an option for the redirector (which isn't necessarily a problem because normally they should be choosing the 3-player lylo for day 2).)

Another possibility is for the redirector to have a total of 2 redirecton shots, which they can use in a single night or one at a time. That would make things interesting -- bold scum could hold both shots on night 1, letting the hider known to have targeted them die. If they manage to avoid being lynched day 2, they win. Or they could use both shots night 1 in order to make someone else look like they were attempting the same thing.

All of the above assumes that the town plans their hiding openly, and that none of the townies lie/gambit. Neither assumption is safe. But I'm pretty sure there can't be any breaking strategy that depends on partial defection or secrecy.

[Herodotus]

Shuffle mafia.

There are 7 roles. One anti town guy and 6 townies.

They start as

1 mafia roleblocker

1 town doctor
1 town jailkeeper
1 town cop
1 town tracker
1 town miller
1 town vanilla.

At the end of each night roles gets shuffled and handed again. Night start.
The miller gets tracked to the dead body. The scum can both use an action and kill.

So what do you think?

Massclaim day 1 will clear all but two players. Lynch either of them, and if they were town, lynch the other on day 2.

[Herodotus]

Setup idea:

11 players
2 Vig
2 BP goons
7 VTs

Allows for worst case 2 mislynches for town.

Thoughts?

If both Goons are BP, why would a vig

ever

shoot? As a hypocop? Too risky.

Lynch efficiency. If a player is certain to be lynched if they're alive the next day, shoot them. If they're town, at least the town gets to try a different lynch. In a very vague sense, it's like treestump mafia. Whenever a townie stumps, a townie dies -- but the town gets some benefit since a different person can be lynched.

[Herodotus]

@Enigma: that would be over on night 2 often. And if the game continued past that, the cops may make a town win easy.

[Herodotus]

[*]Mafia have to kill every night.

This is going to create some conflict. Not all of the mafia have the same motivations, but you need them to agree on a kill. Why is their kill mandatory?

Suppose there are two mafia members left, and one is the survivor. Each will insist that the other perform the kill because of the tracker or PGO, and they will probably prefer different targets. Because there are two of them, they can't vote to decide. Would you threaten them with an automatic loss if they don't agree?

EDIT: Also, if the mafia survivor is about to be lynched, they should have some in-game incentive not to reveal who their remaining partners are. An alternate win condition, maybe. And I don't mean just claiming their role and naming buddies, which is against the site rules and probably the game rules. The survivor simply has no incentive not to drop a strong hint if they're already being bussed, like "my scumlist is [buddy1], [buddy2], [buddy3]." Doing this may even intimidate their partners out of bussing them, so there is a potential incentive for them to do that if they are discovered.

[Herodotus]

Looks to me like the setup favors the scum, though they don't have room to fakeclaim.
The carton should almost never use their ability, right? Only if it would prove their claim if scum counterclaim. And even then, the previous day's lynchee gets out of being lynched until at least the following day. It seems this role combines the badness of a governor and the badness of a self-targeting-only vig.
@Gandalf: yes, any non-null result is a guilty, but the tracker only has a 1 in 3 chance of choosing the killer even if they track mafia, and the mafia may hold their RB until they have 1 or 2 good guesses about who is the tracker.

[Herodotus]

It's there for when the Carton believes that the target has been mistakenly lynched. I'm going off the idea that it can be fairly obvious in the course of a game day that the person currently slated to die is actually a townie. I suppose, though, that a Carton who makes a poor judgment call can ruin the game by un-lynching scum. Putting the entire game in the hands of one judgment call is a bit un-fun, even if (as I feel) it's not a terrible difficult judgment call.

I disagree that there are such situations. I can think of some exceptions, like role-based information, but a lynchee who acts town is just trying to escape the guillotine for all the town knows.
I approve of the change.

There are the changes. Town is more powerful because there's a mason-pair replacing weird, unhelpful Carton. Scum are more powerful because they get a tracker as well, and because

the tracker now has half odds of detecting either town or scum

(one roleblocking, one killing). Makes it so the Carton's ability is automatic, and while it's less likely to trigger you're 100% sure you're being an awesome hero when you do it.

No; as you posted it, if the tracker gets any result that says "your target visited _____", that means they must have tracked scum, because only the scum and the tracker have night actions.

Observation: If n scum and n+1 townies are alive, the scum have already won. Even if mafia is lynched, they will control half the votes on the following day, unless the vig can save the town - which they can only do once. So I think the town can only afford 2 mislynches before they lose.

[Herodotus]

also a Mass Claim will destroy it if it's run open

I disagree.

But for balance and for playtesting purposes, I would suggest simplifying things by making it 2 mafia, maybe have the vig be the only town PR, and maybe give them two, or unlimited, shots.

[Herodotus]

Reminds me of Xylthixlm's Infection.
The town will automatically lose if the mafia can indefinitely replenish their numbers (up to 2) after they are lynched... so I guess drm means that they must always die when they recruit. But still, that's going to be much harder than 2:10 vanilla.

[Herodotus]

Cooperation

1 Mafia goon
1 Mafia seer

1 Werewolf goon
1 Werewolf cop

2 Town bulletproof
2 Town scratchproof
8 vanilla townies

Mafia and Werewolves win together if they can eliminate the town.

I'm not sure if that's the right number of VT's to balance the game, but in the worst case for town, they lose night 3. In the worst case for scum, they lose on day 2 if both teams cross-kill and town lynches perfectly. But neither of those cases is likely.
Maybe the cops should have a head start.

---

Hitogoroshi, are you coming back? Slow Rusty Guillotine Mafia should be run.

[Herodotus]

The last sentence is the point of the game. It's a single scumteam divided into two parts, each with its own kill.

@Beefster:
I was thinking about a pair of vigs, one with a gun and one with a knife (allowing the -proof claims to be tested) but that's up to four deaths per night, which I don't like. Maybe a mason pair.
12 VT's plus the four original PR's seems reasonable, but I don't think there's much interest in 20 player open games.
Or maybe 2 lynches per day with the original numbers?

Another idea:
The scum and/or the bullet-/scratch- proofs could be randomly divided into either 2-2 or 3-1, like how F11 is randomly selected, i.e.:

Roll d4
on 1, there are 3 mafia and one werewolf (who can both kill and investigate on the same night)
on 2 or 3, there are 2 mafia and 2 werewolves as above
on 4, there is one mafia (who can both kill and investigate on the same night), and 3 werewolves

The same system applied to the -proof townies would make fakeclaiming a little better.

[Herodotus]

nominate: Slow Rusty Guillotine Mafia (Second Revision)

if nominations are still the way it's done

[Herodotus]

EV for town is 47%, which is higher than one would expect based on comparing it to other setups.
Looks good.

[Herodotus]

Why not? The town is trying to lynch an informed minority who wants to avoid being lynched.

[Herodotus]

-

I'd like to ask that all discussion of "No Vanilla Crazy Mafia" stop for now, as it looks like it involves some ideas derived from an ongoing game.

-

[Herodotus]

Who wins in the following:

1Maf : 1Ww

1Maf : 1T

And have you calculated win probabilities?

[Herodotus]

Mafia winning 1:1 and 2:2 is fair.

As far as EV is concerned, it looks hard for the town to win. If the werewolves only kill town, the town can only win if the lynches are:
1. All scumlynches, in any order
2. Both werewolves on the first two days, then no more than one mislynch
3. A werewolf, then a mafia, then a werewolf, then a town, then a mafia

[Herodotus]

Empking's Five Player

2 Mafia (Even- Night Kill)

1 One-Shot Publishing Cop (the cop's target has their alignment revealed in the end of night post.)
2 Vanilla Townies

(I calculate the town's chance of winning as 7/18)

Are both the target's name and alignment revealed?

[Herodotus]

With the cop claiming on day 1, EV is 1/3. So if it's 7/18 for the case when the cop stays hidden, that's the better strategy.

[Herodotus]

With no associative tells, D1 is basicially an RVS

I disagree with this. People act differently depending on their role, and not only regarding their partners.
Otherwise Serial Killers would be much harder to find.

[Herodotus]

Shotty's Simple 6P Nightless

4 Townies

1 Godfather
1 Goon

If the godfather's power only kicks in Day 1 then this is balanced but in that case this set up is essentially a more dull and bigger vengeful. Providing that the GF is just Day 1 then this isn't a bad set up.

It's not vengeful. A closer analogy would be Lovers mafia, which is what the setup would be if the goon was also a GF.
If the GF applies every day, the town's EV is still less than 50%.

[Herodotus]

Why?

[Herodotus]

What's the idea behind the setup?

(I can see some problems with it -- first, it randomly screws either the wolves or the mafia. Second, it looks possibly vulnerable to the strategy of: cop/seer claims D1 and NoLynch for several days in a row. Or cop doesn't claim; but either way there's a high probability of No Kill for a long time, especially at the beginning, which suggests No Lynches would let the cop/seer get some results before the first lynch. Third, you have the issue of cross-protection inherent in multi-doc setups. Some of these problems could be solved by declaring that the doctors can only protect from kills made by whichever faction can't be detected by the cop/seer.)

But even if those weren't issues, what sells the setup?

It's not just that one. I feel like this whole thread is full of setups that people have proposed for no apparent reason.

[Herodotus]

Tragedy, what do you think would happen if the players decided they should all claim their roles on day 1?

[Herodotus]

A-Ack.... That's another problem, Herodotus, that I've never thought about...

Why would

anyone

exactly roleclaim at Day I? Was trying to make the roles a bit random and odd, but..

The Kidnapping Lover is the person who most obviously should claim. They want either themself or their lover to be lynched on day 1, because that means one of the scum dies.
The other townies should all claim because if only one person claims PGO, sensor, doctor, or RB, then that person is confirmed to be pro-town. And ignoring the scum lover, three of those roles will have only one person claiming them.

[Herodotus]

If they are pro-town, then why are they specifically listed in the same section and same color as the serial killer?

[Herodotus]

I think Shotty is actually completely serious though.

I'm pretty certain of that.

In DRM's defense, this was probably inspired by F11

, and seems less dependent on chance than F11 is except in one case:
goon neighbor who is lynched day 1 (leaving 2 confirmed town neighbors)
2 cops (even with one being insane, the previously confirmed townies will probably buy the insane cop enough time to get a second investigation)

Okay, it's not that easy. But there is definitely a comparison.

[Herodotus]

If someone is targeted by more than one kill on the same night, who gets the bodies?
If two cannibals kill each other, what happens to the bodies?

You could add a minor protective role or a protown role that has a way to avoid nightkills if you want to give the SK a way out.

[Herodotus]

Anyone can

post

.

I found the needle.

[Herodotus]

1. The zombie faction is swingy given that their power to kill/infect is proportional to the number of them that there are. Also, if there are three+ zombies, does that mean they get one kill and two+ half-recruiments?

2. If you don't say what the potions do, it's not an open setup.

3. What's the MS's win condition? If they have to be last-in-game, they're likely to lose unless they get lucky with potion(s).

4. Maybe we should create a thread for Hypothetical Closed Setup Ideas and Discussion.

[Herodotus]

Presumably the goons have a kill.

What's the point of doing it by PM?

If the lynchee doesn't name who their target will be, it permits the possibility that the scum will target the same person, and if there are two kills, there could be some doubt which kill was made by the scum and which was chosen by the lynchee.
Also, unlike with normal vengeful townies, town can't win after a mislynch in 3-player LYLO.

[Herodotus]

In vengeful, you don't get a vengekill in 3P.

There's a difference between the open setup "Vengeful Mafia" and a setup where all townies are vengeful.

[Herodotus]

Each night, the mafia can chose to Kill, Abandon, or Dethrone any one player. The name of the player and the Role applied will be announced to everyone at dawn.

Kill is almost always the best option.
Also, with no useful claiming, no investigations, and mafia having a good chance of getting the PR's, the scum should win most of the time.

[Herodotus]

@lewarcher:
Is there a game thread in addition to the neighbors' QT's? I'm assuming so. It seems like the most protown way to play is for almost all discussion to take place in the main thread.

@DRM:
You seem to be using a variant of the janitor, otherwise the mafia and SK won't know what to claim.
Also, would you let a mafia RB or mafia janitor perform both the kill and their ability on the same night?

[Herodotus]

I wouldn't call it a breaking strategy, it's just that there's little reason to use the QT's when you're almost certain that scum will read what you say anyways, and there aren't enough PR's to make QT claims or result gambits a big deal.

[Herodotus]

I like it... though it looks like Cooperate or Tie.
The bulletproof townies are well done.

The IC/PGO could get more than the one shot ability.

[Herodotus]

fairly simple setup

11 town PR's out of 27 players

2 scumgroups

All mafia are PR's

I think you mean "normal" setup, which it is.

I'm not good with large setups, but I'd remove some PR's from both town and mafia. Optionally, give each mafia group a watcher or tracker respectively for fakeclaiming purposes.



@Hoopla: I assume the scum win if they outnumber the surviving BP townies, right? In fact, an intact scumteam should be given the win against 2 BP's and the IC, since they can hypothetically wait through 100d1000 NoLynch/NoKill cycles before shooting the IC (if the IC hasn't already used their PGO ability.)

[Herodotus]

@Hoopla: I didn't know that was a standard rule.
Did you account for the fact that the mafia teams will be trying to avoid cross-killing and that this will make it harder to get rid of them?

@drmyshottyizsik: You post a new setup several times each week. If people don't feel like discussing one of your proposals, you can't force them to.

And what's with this massive push for Janitors?

They are now a crutch to compensate for design flaws.

[Herodotus]

It shouldn't work out that way. When they claim, they're confirmed town unless one of the scum decides to counterclaim and get lynched the next day.
Interesting power difference between the scumteams there.

[Herodotus]

It shouldn't work out that way. When they claim, they're confirmed town unless one of the scum decides to counterclaim and get lynched the next day.
Interesting power difference between the scumteams there.

Somehow totally looked over this post, sorry. I know that they're confirmed town, and I don't think that'd be the issue, I just want there to be an air of uncertainty with it; in my opinion, it calls for people to delve deeper into discussion instead of speedlynching when the cop gets a result. No, you're not

supposed

to speedlynch when a cop "claims and outs scum" because it could be a scum gambit, but I've seen people sheep to cops and get lazy in games because the cop's been getting lucky, etc.

You're the first of two people to say something about the difference in powers... what am I not seeing? lol

The miller, if not already outed, could claim in their first post on day 2. If the cop investigated them the cop just ignores the result.

The mafia and werewolves are different in power because the mafia has one player that shows up guilty to the cop, while the werewolves have two (or zero,) and nothing to compensate for this difference. If you want them to be equal but different, you could give one of the werewolves NK-immunity. But inequality doesn't make a setup bad.

BAD IDEA MAFIA

Wanna see it play out.

"Okay, I'm scum. You got me. Me and my partners agreed to shoot the first person on the wagon every night, unless you idiots try some game like voting whose the first on the wagon, then we'll just shoot whoever is the first to vote for whoever is first on the wagon. Waiting for unvote from #1 to nominate new #1."

Congrats, voting for scum is now against your win condition.

That's closer to how things work in real life if an armed, organized group wants to take over a town through murder...
I wonder whether this threat would be dulled by random lynches?

[Herodotus]

I liked the original better than I like your latest version. Now there are 4 scum divided in 2 groups among 20 players, with seven players having claiming power, so it's imbalanced in favor of the town.

[Herodotus]

In my POV:

1. If someone wants to design their own setup and run it, open or not, the Normal/Theme queues are more appropriate than the open queue.

2.

Also, I think Open Games should generally have some sort of "point" or gimmick to them, something to make it unique, and the setup should generally be pretty simple.

+1
A point: A specific role, roles, or mechanic around which the game is centered.
Unique: Doesn't mean multiple different roles that are original or heavily modified.
Simple: An open game shouldn't require a notes section that is tl;dr. Most open games tend to be small unless there's a reason to make them large, and I see this as a good thing.

3.

Your version of the Traitor is a pretty horrible role

+1

No offense is intended to anyone by the above. I may be wrong, and even if I'm right, it's only because of experience.

[Herodotus]

Empking, you stole my idea! And Tragedy is completely right. Not because it would really help mafia all that much, but a 3:9:1 with no town PRs would be a bitch to win.

I would say weight the killing role towards town, and the RB towards mafia. Any takers?

I would say have a random one of the four be anti-town (either SK or a mafia PR) instead.

[Herodotus]

That's a remarkebly different game because once one scum PR is killed the rest are confirmed (or the inverse)

Yes... maybe change the watcher a little to compensate.

(and power roles can't bus one another.).

[Herodotus]

Maybe have the Lights-Off Goon as a backup Lights On/Off?

That would entirely defeat the purpose of making them otherwise be Lights-Off only, as there's no tracker, watcher, roleblocker, etc.

The point is town and scum outguessing each other, but Olinea is right that there's a chance the town will be far, far ahead at the end of day 1. What if the mafia started as goons, and assigned the lights-off and lights-on/off roles between them on night 1?

[Herodotus]

Hello.

I am working on a large theme that will be run as an open game. It's somewhat complicated and probably will not be considered for the open games list, so I'm not sure this is the appropriate place to discuss it.

Perhaps some of you would like to discuss it via PM?

I'd be happy to review it.






but I probably shouldn't be the only one

[Herodotus]

@Grey: why take the skill out of the game?

Also, what happens when the scum submit their own name?
At 1:2 Lylo? (Even at 2:3 Lylo, 2 townies are confirmed.)

[Herodotus]

You don't seem to understand Nomination Mafia. There are no confirmed townies in it. You created that idea yourself, and that's why your "scenario" is so easy for the town to win.

[Herodotus]

@Empking:
As it is, the cop-makee can confirm a claimed cop-maker based on the action.
You could make one of the goons a scum cop-maker. They might never use the ability, but since they have the option, that means cop-makers couldn't be immediately confirmed as town by the person to whom they gave the ability.
Also, goons could be told when they are targeted by a cop maker, so they aren't caught on that basis if they claim VT. You could reward them for being targeted with a rolecop.
In fact, you could combine these and let the mafia cop-maker target the mafia goon to turn them into a rolecop (after the first night... it might not be very useful.)
Will VT cop-makees flip as VT's or as cops?

@Tragedy:
Do you know about this subforum?

[Herodotus]

Where's the difference between 2, 3, & 4? Is it in rolename only?

It makes a difference whether the cop knows that they can't be protected, or if the doc knows there's no reason to ever protect a claimed cop, etc.

In fact, that's one great selling point: UD and MC is better than UD and cop, or doc and MC.

2 roleblockers seem a bit strong. Could always make it a group abillity, b ut for a newbie game that'd be weird.

Effectively it is a group ability, if one of the mafia is performing the RB and the other is performing the kill (presumably a lone mafia RB can use both abilities during the same night.)

My best guess is a Normal Doctor works different than an unlicensed.

UD is doc that fails if they target the cop

Nominate: LlammaFluff's unnamed setup for the open queue

[Herodotus]

If the jester is lynched, does everyone else lose, or does the game continue?

[Herodotus]

I think I've figured out what GreyICE means re: Nomination Mafia.

The mafia have the option of always submitting three townies (until very late in the game if their numbers are reduced.)

Grey's point seems to be this:
Suppose they do that.
Even if the town somehow knew that all of the submitted names were townies, town would still be at a disadvantage.

If that's true, then the scum can follow this plan as a breaking strategy.

[Herodotus]

If one of the FH's was an effective doctor and the other was an ineffective doctor, I believe that would resolve that particular issue. Flavour justification: one of the faiths is right and the other is wrong.

[Herodotus]

That's what I had in mind. And keeping the "both FH choosing the same target leaves the target unprotected".
If one FH and the other PR were to claim on D1, one or the other would presumably have protection. The mafia could take a shot at either, and depending on their success (50% chance) they would know whether this FH was the effective one, or they could choose a different target.

[Herodotus]

1.1 is obviously the most conventional, and 1.4 is obviously the swingiest (though I actually like a rolecop for the JOAT in 1.4, as the JOAT would learn a doc's role, but not their effectiveness, mmmmm). That being said, any other significant kinks in any of these (balance or otherwise)? If Farside approves, I am for sure going to run one of these versions for my Open game once I'm at the top of the mod queue.

3 is the most conventional, 1 (or maybe 2) is the swingiest, and according to the official policy, I'd encourage anyone who wants to moderate a setup of their own selection to do so in other queues.

[Herodotus]

If the Goon kills everybody at the party they attend, how is the Watcher useful? He only observes the party that he attends, so he'll die.

the watcher helps - a little - with finding townies and catching fakeclaims.
but this does seem unbalanced and very swingy.

[Herodotus]

The goon who kills may wish to claim they went to the house of someone other than the person they went to. There's a small chance the watcher was at the house they fakeclaim to have visited.

[Herodotus]

Mafia may kill each other; that will harm their faction greatly because their best players are most likely to be killed.

You shouldn't include so many PR's. See Stoofer's 4th Law.

[Herodotus]

Or you could remove all docs, BPT's, RB's, JK's, etc. and make all the goons bulletproof. Then whenever a kill fails, the goon who took the shot knows who one of their partners is.

Some would say the whole idea is "not mafia" because the informed minority has so little information.

[Herodotus]

Thoughts?

Looks familiar.
And quite broken; the town should win most games just based on the investigations. Try simulating it using random actions (and a No Lynch on Day 1 unless the first person killed had investigated mafia.)

[Herodotus]

9 VT's would give a 50% EV. Otherwise I agree with Empking.

[Herodotus]

I like it and I think it goes back to what the Open Queue is all about.

Empking's Military Mafia

4 Townies
1 Roleblocker
2 Mafia Goons

All players have a 1-shot night kill, and all players have a 1-shot bulletproof. The same mafia goon cannot use his one-shot kill and factional kill at the same time. Likewise, the roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time.

The mafia will win very quickly. Probably on Day 1.

[Herodotus]

how about make it cant claim pschopath..

1 jester

No reveal.

UM OKAY THIS IS PROBABLY HORRIFICALLY IMBALANCED

We have a separate thread for these ideas.

[Herodotus]

The bomb, not knowing who they are, seems like a way to randomly destroy the SK. Did you include it to reduce the SK's chance to win? To try to force them to aim for the mafia?

[Herodotus]

I found a problem with your setup: you have three serial killers (in addition to a mafia group).

This is bad because the winners will be determined primarily through cross-killing and special abilities, not scumhunting or other skill based factors.

You don't see "many" faith healers. There was one recent setup that wasn't entirely terrible that included a pair of them. They're still not recommended, and some of us tried to help remove the randomness they introduced.

[Herodotus]

they will not die

implies that they get the equivalent of a doctor protection.
Also, what do you think will happen if all lovers claim on day 1 and kill their partner on night 1?

The SK will be outed and one of the mafia will die. This is nearly equivalent to:
1x cop
6x VT
2x goons
Forced No Lynch on day 2

[Herodotus]

I don't want a framer thrown in. Sorry.

Are setups considered to be the intellectual property of the person who proposed them in this topic? I always assumed OSI&D was a free collaboration to produce setups for the community.

[Herodotus]

Nominate: Chosen

I'm not sure what version is most balanced, but popular opinion seemed balanced around the last run version:

2 mafia
7 townies (2 of whom are Chosen, and are not told of their selection)

Pre-game, the mafia submit 1 townie's name. 2 of the remaining 6 townies are randomly selected to be the Chosen.
The mafia are told who was selected, but the Chosen are not. As long as

both

of the Chosen are alive, they are NK-immune and can't be endgamed, so the mafia need to lynch at least one of them before endgame or the mafia lose (in other words, 1 or 2 mafia vs. 2 Chosen is a town win).

There are some reasonable policies that are necessary to avoid the game being broken. For instance, town can't be allowed to No Lynch indefinitely. Self-votes might count as double-votes to help reduce endgame deadlock(?)

(to give credit: core concept was by Ether, these numbers came from Incognito's game)

[Herodotus]

They flip as Chosen.

I don't think a Chosen has been lynched in any previous run. (In the first two, there was only one Chosen.)

[Herodotus]

Shortnight

6 Players

2 Mafia Goons

4 Vanilla Townies

• Daystart
  
• Players are split into two groups of three, with one mafia in each group, and are put into seperate rooms.
  
• Players must lynch amongst the people in their room.
  
• If both mafia are lynched d1 in both rooms, town wins.
  
• If one mafia is lynched d1, that mafia vengekills one of the players from his room and the rooms combine.
  
• If no mafia are lynched d1, the town players who were lynched must agree on a vig kill. If the kill is on mafia, the game continues in LYLO. Otherwise, mafia wins.

Town EV is 40%. 11% chance of win D1, 22% chance of lynching 1 scum and a townie, then lynching the other scum, and 7% chance of mislynching then coming back to win.
In the 3-player rooms, I'm not sure that there is any scumhunting because there is no association. Maybe instead of separating the town into rooms, let everyone discuss and vote together but publicly label half of the town as group A, with one goon, and group B, with the other. On the first day, one player from each group must be lynched.

[Herodotus]

I think JasonWazza is correct, and I forgot that a townie would be confirmed in Scenario 2. 44% looks very good.

This setup is a lot like another game idea that I can't find but is somewhere in these 300 pages:
There is a mafia group, and the townies are evenly divided between two groups. So the role PM's are like:

2, 3, or 4 x You are a goon with _________.

N x You are a vanilla townie.

N x You are a chocolate townie.

The expected strategy was to massclaim D1.

[Herodotus]

how do multiple Kidnaps resolve?

Chain Reaction

What would happen if players massclaimed on Day1 and they set up a Kidnapping chain?

The mafia could kill a tracker.