[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Elmo]

Nominate: Texas Justice (I know)
Second/etc: Bird C9, Friends and Enemies, 2:10 Bugs Bunny

[Elmo]

I know it's broken, that's the "I know". I thought it'd be good to run it again because it's a fun setup if the town doesn't break it, which is what I did when I played it. It's pointless to run it if the town intends to break it, but you could just ask people not to sign up if they intend to do that. I don't really agree that it should never have been run, I got a fair amount of enjoyment out of it, so it served its purpose well as far as I'm concerned. (shrug)

[Elmo]

There are a number of ways to "fix" Texas Justice.

Like what?

[Elmo]

I think death metal is hilarious and would seriously consider /inning if I was looking for another game.

[Elmo]

I like it on its own merits. I think it would be fun. :colbert:

This contrasts with "less experimental setups in the open queue" which I agree with, though. But I don't agree with your dismissive attitude here. :J

[Elmo]

The best reasonable case seems to be town lynched d1, townie NKed & cop gets guilty n1, cop claims sometime d2, mafia lynched d2, cop killed n2. Which leaves 2 mafia vs. 5 townies.. I gotta agree with Ether that 2:8+1cop seems closer to the mark for balanced, albeit it's pretty swingy.

In particular, it seems far more likely that the cop gets an innocent, especially if they're using the investigation n1. I think the cop delaying using the action is too risky, especially with the scum% and the fact scum will be cop-hunting like mad. If they kill the cop e.g. n1 they're basically home free. At that point, you've basically got something like two confirmed innocents (assuming scum don't CC the cop). I don't see how that can possibly be compensation for being in a vanilla 3:8.

I guess I just don't understand how you envision it playing out in a balanced way; one important thing is that before I'd actually seen a vanilla 2:10, I probably would have agreed, but I think that for whatever reason people

massively

overstate the effectiveness of scumhunting in vanilla games (I thought town would steamroller 2:10 and was shocked to hear they'd never won any).

[Elmo]

Angelic

1 angel
2 goons
7-9? townies

The angel is told the alignments of all players, cannot post in thread, and does not exist for all practical purposes; except, each night, the angel selects one townie to protect from a kill. The mafia are told who the angel selected before they submit their kill.

Not really sure about the balance here, but I think it's cute. Odds on the town needs more than 7 townies because vanilla, idk.

[Elmo]

Flay, that was my intent. I want the angel to deny the scum the possibility of killing a particular person without the possibility of actually stopping the kill. That's what I see as the primary function of the doc. Why do you think it doesn't work as is?

[Elmo]

I thought about something like that (abusing the fact that the angel knows alignments) but I think the scum can work around it easily. I could be wrong here.

Running it through in my head, I can't see it as any different than the angel can force a specific 2:1 endgame if the town does something similar to that, but it's not much different to the usual case where the angel can get any one person through to endgame unscathed, I think. Part of the reason for posting it here is for people to comment on balance and try and break it, after all

[Elmo]

each player should be allowed to opt out from being the angel before roles are given out

This is probably true, I think I'd like to be angel but in retrospect it's obvious some players would hate it.

Flay: Well, I wanted opinions on how many townies, hence the 7-9 part. Or even 10 townies might be okay.. I guess it depends situationally on how important keeping one person alive is, which is what I'm having problems figuring out. If the town correctly gets a single obvtown person, they only have to lynch one goon to be guaranteed a 50:50 shot in endgame. Town Glork never dies. Etc. I would actually value it as most of the power of a normal doctor, but then again 2:9 + 1 doc is currently running, so hmm..

And no, they can never kill the angel, which is part of why I think it's worth a townie. And the scum still can't fake-claim. FWIW the original setup had less townies and a cop in, with the angel unable to protect the cop, but I think in that case it's town-friendly unless you have only a few townies (I'm thinking in terms of California here).

@Tenchi: I would give an opinion but I really don't have much useful, beyond it seems likely that the mafia gets docblocked.. that can be swingy. Although it might be confused with mafia hitting the vampire. Not sure if the vampire's best is to play to be recruited, really... that might leave the town a bit under-numbered. Doc protects are only as strong as the doc's scumhunting, so in the worst case it's something like 2.5:7 vanilla. I suppose a lot of it comes down to doc protects which seems difficult to predict to me. I do like the mafia having a group roleblock though

[Elmo]

If it were me, I would at least mix in 2:5 nightless or so. Just sayin'...

[Elmo]

I have faint memories of proposing that exact setup a while ago. I may just be imagining stuff. But I think someone came up with that or something like it when brainstorming for what became F11. I have no idea which thread, though

I.. think a problem is you've got two roles confirmed in the game. That means a) scum can never fakeclaim without being caught (e.g. cop gambits) and b) endgames are much harder due to that. You're highly likely to have a 50:50 or at least one confirmed innocent.

[Elmo]

Nameless Experimental #1

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Cop Killer
1 Cop
1 Doc
5 Townies

The Cop Killer will kill the Cop when performing the nightkill regardless of whether the Cop is protected by the Doc or not. It will not kill a Townie if the Townie is protected by the Doc. (This is fairly close to Bird C9.)

[Elmo]

Elmo C10?

I am actually not seriously proposing this setup and do not want my name attached to it very much please

Doesn't the mafia auto-lose if the Mafia Cop Killer is lynched Day One and the town massclaims Day 2 for the same reason the mafia autoloses Pie E7 if the Roleblocker is lynched Day 1? Because of that, I think the Cop Killer needs to be an inherit trait for both Mafia members.

Yes. I disagree, because Pie E7.

LOLwut?

That. Running vanilla nightless newbie games with whatever numbers would be awesomesauce.

[Elmo]

When both Mafia are alive, the goon should perform the kill, and the roleblocker should roleblocked. So when tracker gets a result on the roleblocker, they have to consider whether the player is a doc, rather than receiving a plain guilty.

Effectively they get a guilty if they target the goon (unless the kill is blocked) and a 50%-guilty-with-info if they target the doc/RB. But they have to think carefully before mentioning it; they also have to consider whether the target makes more sense as a doc target or RB. The two will coincide a fair amount.

[Elmo]

Follow The Cop

Should probably be run at least once for sheer comedy value.

Bonus points if you make the princess millers bulletproof.

[Elmo]

For all of the 3 seconds I spent thinking about it, I thought that would lean more towards town, I would just take the free investigation and be happy. Just curious what your perspective is?

[Elmo]

In that case another perspective is that it gets very nasty for the scum if a beloved princess claims and is believed. They cannot kill them in any way. If it happens with both it completely screws the scum.

You're right, in fact it would be optimal for them both just to claim D1 I think. D'oh.

Hm. Isn't that optimal for the original setup, thinking about it? I'm too tired to run numbers. 2x Miller confirmed innocent or scum are forced into {1:2}/{1:5} with a cop out and no chance of false positive guilties either way. Ummm.

[Elmo]

Yeh, it's not clearly broken. I don't know if it's better or not, but it's probably within the margin where you'll sometimes do better with scumhunting. (Still too lazy to run numbers.)

Nominate: Follow the Cop

I figure!

[Elmo]

edit: beloved princesses only give the scum an extra kill, the cop only gets one investigation. They only trigger doublekill if they are lynched, not nightkilled.

The Cop is a normal Sane Cop, i.e. investigates every night.
In the case that a Beloved Princess is nightkilled, everything is normal.
In the case that a Beloved Princess is lynched, that night, the Cop gets 1 investigation and the Mafia get 2 nightkills. (Canonically, the town spends the following Day in mourning and hence there is a double night; this is a variant.)

At least that's how I read it.