Blitz 16: Blitz Greatest Idea Mafia(GAME OVER)

[Persivul]

VOTE: Blackstar HI!

Anyone else get screwed in the reshuffle? I had a really cool role in the first deal. Tough to win, but would have been fun.

[Persivul]

I've been dealt a scummy modifier whose only modifier is to make me look suss so Ima claim it now, avoid difficulties later. I have a gravedigger flavour. If you see me visiting literally everyone who dies in the night, don't be alarmed. I'm not satan.

I got a scummy modifier too but it's not terribly likely to come into play so I'm not going to claim it at this point.

[Persivul]

I see it as protown to claim modifiers which could have bad effects

OK, I drew Hirsute, so I investigate as a WW to seers.

[Persivul]

Mental note that 2 people have modifiers to negate investigative. Anyone else?

At persivul, if you claim your modifier, does it hurt town? Because if not claiming had the potential to hurt town, and claiming doesn't, I'm wondering why you didn't just claim it

I figured people would freak out if I were first to do so. My luck lately.

[Persivul]

mod: reminder that we need to see the discards

In first deal my discard would have been town cop. Might have been tough to explain that.

[Persivul]

As I said, my luck lately, or my rep. I blow my fucking nose on D1 and people scum read me for it.

[Persivul]

FA what's your discard? Mine is FBI Agent.

[Persivul]

What would you have been in the first deal? Mine was cool - Survivor Captain. Probably tough to win, but would have been fun.

[Persivul]

Are you pleased or disappointed with the redeal?

[Persivul]

Here are the list of discards:
1. Frozen Angel - Survivor
2. Almost50 - Vanilla Cop
3. Smithereens - Werewolf

Roleblocker

4. Wednesday_ - Mafia

Jailkeeper

5. Starbuck - Hider
6. Radiant Cowbells - Bodyguard
7. Jackal711 - Vanilla Townie
8. Ranger - Werewolf
9. Persivul - FBI Agent
10. lane0168 - Cult Leader
11. BlackStar -

Cop

12. Flubbernugget - Tree Stump
13. Davesaz -

Double Voter

Several good roles got tossed, most notably Cop and Double Voter.

Blackstar, why did you toss Cop?

[Persivul]

First draw I got:

Town Captain
Survivor Silencer
Town Cop

Town cop was probably best choice regarding winning, but it's of course very common and I play this setup hoping to get weird stuff. I went with Survivor Captain, because it seemed like it would be the most fun.

[Persivul]

Second off, to make a request: I want everyone to list the cards they got on the first draw, along with what their decision from those cards was.

And yours were...

[Persivul]

I made a mistake the second time that I chose a combination and in order to keep this role the mod had to change my first choice to cop.

I'm kinda doubting that mod changed one of your cards. However, mod did things a little different by supplying the possible combinations from the deal. This made things easier in one sense, but for some people (me included) a particular role/alignment combination could be made with either of two cards for the alignment. I specified my discard to mod. I don't know what happened if people didn't specify. That may have something to do with what you're saying. Or not.

[Persivul]

Maybe I'm not explaining it right. I chose my first card and then on the second card I chose one of the combinations instead of another card because I didn't really understand what I was supposed to do. In order for me to keep that role, the mod switched the choice I made on one of my cards so that I could keep the role that I wanted. I don't know that made it clearer.

I think I get it. Why didn't you want to be a cop?

[Persivul]

Wednesday are you an alt? If so how long have you been around?

[Persivul]

Ranger conf town - 1 post
Smithers eager town? - 4
Flubber paranoid town? - 7
Persivul trying to blend in - 15
Frozen angel gut town read - 19
Almost 50 hard to read - 3
Cowbells null - 1
Blackstar noob town? - 4
Thats all I hav so far

Number of posts added above. No mention of:

lane - 5
davesaz - 2
Starbuck - 1

So how do you get conftown on Ranger from 1 post, but don't even mention lane at 5?

[Persivul]

VOTE: persivul

How about instead you try an figure out my alignment as that is what is most relevant wouldn't you agree?

OK, based on conf towning ranger from a single post I'll read you as scummy.

VOTE: Wednesday

[Persivul]

First draw I got

Clairvoyant
Cop
Mafia goon

What did you choose?

[Persivul]

Clairvoyant

I had that option this deal. I had to look it up. It would be helpful to town but not much fun - one reveal and you're a VT going forward.

[Persivul]

Ranger is conf town bc of miller claim.

Why does a miller claim make her conftown? Is that a general rule for you, or something specific to Ranger?

[Persivul]

I would have thought that Miller is a role, not a modifier. But upon checking the setup I see that there is in fact a 1/75 chance to get miller as a modifier to another role.

By noting the odds are you implying that you're skeptical of the claim?

[Persivul]

Is it not for you? I have yet to see scum do it. Show me a game where scum have claimed
Miller I'll reconsider.

So you're an alt.

Regarding miller, I've yet to see one. Regarding past experience, are you referring to games like this with a deal, or standard games? Typically scum aren't millers. In this setup, where scum could indeed draw a miller modifier...what would be the downside to claiming it?

p-edit - FA's on the same track as me.

[Persivul]

FA's the kind of person who is highly liable to have chosen a scum role.

Support for this?

[Persivul]

I almost picked vanilla townie. Not picking one shot cult leader was easy

Especially considering the cult cards were supposed to be removed from the game.
Spreading misinformation to hide the scum card you actually picked?
VOTE: lane0168

Mod changed that on the second deal. Check one of the early posts, that rule is still there but struck out IIRC.

[Persivul]

Post 0, item 7.

[Persivul]

Why do YOU want him dead.

Jealousy. Hatred. He chested on me the bastard.

The King is as faithful as the day is long.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Almost50

5, 14, 15 - awkward entrance, comments on Kraeg's modding are unnecessary and feel forced
88 - Another unnecessary comment about the game, answers Ranger, meta scum read on RC
185 - IIoA - yes, I also disagree with Ranger about the desirability of hider and bodyguard, but going into it at length without then using it to pressure someone makes you appear active without advancing the game
186 - More IIoA regarding voting protocol
187 - English isn't FA's native language, seemed apparent to me she was noting that the setup allows for multiple anti-town factions. If you really thought this was a scum slip, you would have voted her or kept up the pressure.
189 - backs off on RC, makes proactive excuses for lack of reads
193 - more IIoA on voting protocol

[Persivul]

Also, I think I want to update my list.
{Smithereens, Wednesday, Frozen Angel}
{Flubbernugget,blackstar }
{lane0168, davesaz}
{Jackal711 - null}
{}
{Persivul, radiant cowbells, Starbuck -null}
{Almost50}

I'm almost willing to move BlackStar and lane up a tier, but I need a little more from them to be sure.

That is where I'm at.

I don't think we are gonna get almost50 lynched today based on reading their entry post. Persivul seems like the type to just role over and die, cowbells maybe, I don't even know what a starbuck is...

For certain though I'll vote when necessary. And be my usual self until hanging time. I feel like I know something; it pertains to blackstar unsure whether to say it

Uh, are you saying you have the exact same reads as Ranger?
If not, what does the bolded mean, coming right after the quoted post?
Why does 5 preclude an Almost50 lynch today?
You'll vote when necessary, but just hang out until then?
This post is really bad.

[Persivul]

not omgussy but chainsawy, I think.

This feels like projecting.

[Persivul]

fite

distance

me wednesday

FTFY

[Persivul]

Townier to scummier:

{Lane, Flubber}
{Smithers}
{Frozen, Ranger, Jackal, Starbuck}
{davesaz, Blackstar}
{Radiant, Wednesday, Almost50}

[Persivul]

You're being paranoid dave. Thats town right? Ranger is that town?

What I get paranoid about is scum trying to mess with obvious townies

.

Are you referring to yourself as obvtown? If not, who are you referring to?

[Persivul]

Still begs the question, they're both on top of each other's lists.

We're masons, duh.

Masons aren't in the setup.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ranger

[Persivul]

Can confirm am a mason with ranger :^)

Mason...isn't...in...the...setup.
1
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Idea_Mafia

[Persivul]

Instead of clicking on the link from mod's post, they probably just looked up Greater Idea Mafia and came to this page, which DOES include masons:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... Idea_Mafia

But, mod linked to

Modified

GIM, which does NOT include masons.

Unless mod comes in and says he fucked up and used a different list than what he linked to, this calls for an

autolynch of Ranger and Wednesday.

[Persivul]

Forgot the site starts on post 0, not 1. Mod's link is in 0.

[Persivul]

Well. this is wierd ...

and gonna be one of the most stupid beautiful scum slips like ever if its actually a slip ...

VOTE: Ranger

Either they screwed up or mod did. I don't see what else it could be. And yeah, if it's a slip it's a classic.

[Persivul]

Also note that the list which DOES include masons does NOT include modifiers. Since mod had to roll for modifiers, this doesn't look like mod error.

[Persivul]

Regular GIM doesn't have Captain. Modified does. I drew Captain in the first deal. So, mod was definitely using the modified GIM role list which does NOT include masons.

[Persivul]

If both of you were joking, it was a stupid joke. We have to lynch one of you to find out. Since Ranger also claimed Miller, she's the best choice. If she flips green, you get read on your own merits going forward.

[Persivul]

If someone refers to me as their mason partner and I'm not, I don't care if I think it was intended as a joke - I wouldn't go along with it.

We also still have the fact that they each immediately placed the other in their towniest reads. Makes sense if they were planning on faking mason.

[Persivul]

why you care so much about me voting Ranger.

I'm not voting you ...

I was thinking the same thing.

[Persivul]

Ranger is town. No explanation is required from me as a justification is both unnecessary and silly.

How do you know that, since you're not masons?

[Persivul]

Wednesday doesn't seem to be brushing it off as a joke. Seems more like scrambling to cover up the slip. I wish persivul would've played it out more to see if they stuck with the claim. Tough to decide what it really is

Yeah, looking back I should have, but with Wednesday's reaction and Ranger's previous Miller claim, I'm pretty comfortable with a Ranger lynch.

[Persivul]

Also consider that Ranger is one of the most serious players on here. From her I find a calculated, purposely ambiguous statement to be more likely than an offhand joke about her role.

[Persivul]

If its a lover or neighbor or something which relates you to Ranger its your last chance for claiming it ...

I considered those previously. Her panic suggests lover. Note however that

neither of those confirm the other as town

, so those don't explain the immediate town reads on each other. Town!Ranger would certainly not give a free pass to a neighbor or lover.

[Persivul]

I prefer Ranger due to the Miller claim, but I could go either way. Wednesday's reaction is awful.

[Persivul]

LOL - the guy hiding behind the girl alt is calling lane a pussy.

[Persivul]

Miller modifier has nothing to do with his alignment.

The point is that a cop investigation (if we have one) is rendered suspect by the miller claim. But if we lynch Ranger, we could possibly get a cop investigation on Wednesday.

[Persivul]

I read that shit earlier as a joke, sorry Persivul.

No need to apologize. But if it was a joke, it STILL leaves unexplained the immediate strong townreads on each other.

On that note I'm still voting Wednesday.

Just so it's one of them.

[Persivul]

If both of you were joking, it was a stupid joke. We have to lynch one of you to find out. Since Ranger also claimed Miller, she's the best choice. If she flips green, you get read on your own merits going forward.

Or, you know, we could skip the part where we lynch town, then go, "oh, guess that means the other's scum, let's lynch them" and lynch a

second

town, too.

Which is totally what will happen the moment you lynch me, since I'm the main defender of Wednesday.

I disagree. If one of you flips green, then as I said, the other will be read on their own merits. Why would we lynch Wednesday right after his main defender flipped green? That makes no sense.

And instead. Lynch Almost50, where we actually had

momentum

building, before you decided to go all stupid on us and take a

very obvious joke

at face value.

Seriously, do you think I would claim mason, under no pressure, with it being a serious claim, on D1? Who DOES that? It was a joke. The "duh" at the end should have said as much.

"Duh" isn't very obviously a joke. "Just kidding" is very obviously a joke. "Duh" could easily be a means to test the waters seriously while maintaining some level of deniability.

And if you're lynched and flipped green, Almost50 would be my next push, not Wednesday.

The

only

acceptable action when someone claims they're your mason buddy and you aren't is to accept it. Town, scum, doesn't matter. Joke, gambit, it doesn't matter.

1. Why?

2. Why particularly if it was a joke?

How do you know that, since you're not masons?

Oh, I don't know, maybe Wednesday actually

read my posts

and didn't assign some superficial arbitrary scum definition off of a "slip" that was not serious? Maybe Wednesday took a look at what I was trying to do with the requests and realized that I was looking to hone in on mafia? Maybe Wednesday took a look at my scumreads and realized that I not only had good scumreads but good reasons to back them up?[/quote]
Now you're answering for him.

[Persivul]

Since when?

I'm notorious for fluffing around back

on my home site

. Have to do SOMETHING when I'm not analyzing, after all.

By referring to your home site I take it you're admitting that you don't joke around here?

I've played with you more than once and ISOd a recent game. You're a very serious player.

[Persivul]

Wednesday, immediately out of the gate, produced strong reads in 67. It takes a lister to know a lister. I do listing. I know how it works and when it's town and when it's not. Wednesday's listing was immediately obvious to me: townreading me for all the effort I put into one post,

Except that's not true. You put very little into the one post - 56 - you had made before Wednesday's list in 67, and Wednesday said the read was based on the miller claim, not on the effort you put into the post.

[Persivul]

Imo scum are generally greedy capitalistic pigs who jump like jews at the sign of profit.

Unacceptable racial/ethnic slur.

[Persivul]

Hmm it might be better to vote Wednesday here. If we're wrong, Wednesday could just be trying to set himself for the "see! I told you he was town you idiots" whIle still being scum.

After Ranger's reaction (not great but better than Wednesday's) I agree. I'm not sure if the mason claims were serious or a joke, and Wednesday is scummier on his own merits.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wednesday

[Persivul]

I got the impression Wednesday is Goodmorning, if that helps.

It helps me think that the two of you are scum. Putting goodmorning's name into it would likely relieve some pressure on Wednesday. Wednesday hasn't pressured you, and in fact said that she didn't think you could be lynched today rather early and with little cause, just citing your entrance.

[Persivul]

That is a misrep and you know it.

I'm NOTORIOUS on my home site for doing it.

That doesn't mean I don't do it here, it just means I'm not notorious for it here, because simply put I'm not well-known enough to have any sort of notoriety.

It's not a misrep. If you joke around here, I would think you would just show a couple examples from completed games. That makes much more sense than claiming notoriety for joking on another site.

What do you think of Wednesday/Almost50 interactions?

[Persivul]

As for the Firefly game; it was a themed game myself and FA played in recently, and I was a flavoured day cop (so I did get to clear someone on D1). She was a mason partner of the person I cleared. I wanted to remind her of my role in that game for a "possible" explanation of how one of them (Wednesday & Ranger) reads the other, but I'm not sure how the other one did read them back.

If one of them were a day cop, why would they choose the other to investigate so early in phase? That doesn't make sense.

[Persivul]

And instead. Lynch Almost50, where we actually had momentum building, before you decided to go all stupid on us and take a very obvious joke at face value.

Wednesday tried to derail an Almost50 wagon right from the start. What do you think of that?

[Persivul]

So, Ranger is scum bc she made a joke, and bc she's town reading Wednesday. Wednesday is scum for town reading Ranger and playing along with her joke, and -also- for not pressuring me (which I suppose is a prerequisite for town status. I mean; your PM must've read: to prove you're town you must pressure Almost). And now I'm scum based on Wednesday not pressuring me, while Ranger is scum reading me for distancing I suppose??

No, it's:

- You're scum for reasons given in 195
- Ranger is not scum, as she has been on you pretty consistently. BUT, I want to know why Ranger isn't concerned that Wednesday, her top town read, tried to nip a wagon on Ranger's top scum read in the bud (see next point).
- Wednesday is scum for several reasons, including the fact that: her top town read Ranger voted you, and in her first post after that (177) she tried to derail a wagon on you by saying "I don't think we are gonna get almost50 lynched today based on reading their entry post."

[Persivul]

So, Ranger isn't scum but you couldn't care less and still tried to use her joke on her. Only when that failed did you redirect your attention to Wednesday. Nice logic.

No, I did see Ranger as scummy, now not so much...but again, I need to hear her response on Wednesday's dismissal of her vote on you. If I'm so close with someone that it feels like we're masons, but I vote my top scum read and they don't argue for or against it, but just say

not today

, I'd be suspicious. I want to know if Ranger defends Wednesday for that, or says she didn't pay it much attention at the time but now sees it as odd, or whatever.

And I still don't see your vote switched from Wednesday to myself. Any particular reason?

I have two scum reads, one vote, and if you're both scum Wednesday is probably more dangerous based on play so far.

[Persivul]

OK, Pervisul.. let's try this another way.. how do you read someone like Starbuck, for instance?

Null. He has two posts, both devoid of content.

[Persivul]

And yes, let's try this another way...what's your read on Wednesday, and what is your reasoning?

[Persivul]

Not voting: Almost50

[Persivul]

You put an RVS vote on FA, moved that to Radiant based on weak meta, then unvoted Radiant.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Wednesday L1

this is it hard claim right now.

what is your shitty modifier

what is your role? the one you

hinted

?

pedit : YOU literally said it .... that wasn't even close to be just a hint

No fuck you guys. I'm taking my role with me.

There is absolutely no town motivation to choose being lynched over claiming.

[Persivul]

You literally said that you will believe me if I claim X ?!

and you said that's a hint!

anyone! someone! That's not a hardclaim?!

I don't know WTF you're saying and don't care to play games. If Wednesday wants to claim she should do so plainly.

[Persivul]

I keep wanting to make jabs at FA's posting but there's nothing in there that would constitute an actual scum case so I keep ignoring it is

Careful blackstar is prone to call you scum for such actions.

Really scummy post.

[Persivul]

@ Frozen: If it's not stated by Wednesday plainly than it's worthless IMO.

[Persivul]

OK... too much info at once, but here is my response:

@Wednesday: PI only investigates CULT. So, maybe she's not cult and there's a very small chance she could be a WW. What about Mafia? How would you clear her from being Mafia??

Also, I looked up modifiers, and if she was given "Athiest" then she would investigate as NO CULT regardless, so .. ??

All this is assuming your modifier is DAY to begin with. Otherwise, there's nothing you could've investigated either, or am I totally lost?

Also, why would she choose Ranger to investigate so early in phase...

[Persivul]

OK, Pervisul.. let's try this another way.. how do you read someone like Starbuck, for instance?

I answered...what's your point?

[Persivul]

The thng about Starbuck is the main issue I have on this site. People here tend to overlook/ignore the silent ones. Does it not strike you as a little suspicious that someone only posted twice in more than 48 hours? More so when it's a blitz game with only 96 hours day phase??

NM above, you already answered. Yes, I've argued in the past that conceptually lurkers should be policy lynched in some percentage of games, but you know damn well that doesn't happen. So, why bring it up?

[Persivul]

actually this is the RC I know...

It's not the RC I know until she self-votes.

[Persivul]

RC is a he.

Based on the avatar, that's debatable.

and he won't self vote until he has a point for it ...

Yeah, if frustration counts as a point...

[Persivul]

Stick around awhile, you will...

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: RC
VOTE: Ranger

I've seen Ranger as town, in a recent game. This doesn't read as his town game.

What's your read on Wednesday?

[Persivul]

Also, Persivul throwing casual scum claims around on page 17 didn't go unnoticed.

I reviewed page 17 and saw that I was pressuring Almost50, who I made a case on way back in 195. No clue what you mean by throwing casual scum claims around...although that's what you seem to be doing here, by making the claim without mentioning any specifics.

[Persivul]

I must've missed the 195th post then. Or else I wasn't thinking of it when you waltzed in and labelled a seemingly innocuous post scum. Try put the links with it or else the context condemns you more than him.

I'd say this post condemns you more than either of us. You're not paying attention to the game, voting on nothing, and yet accusing me of doing the same when you should know that I've been scum reading Almost50 for most of the game.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: Almost50
VOTE: Starbuck.
Vote may change (RadiantCowbells or Persivul in particular), but I'm thinking I was wrong on Almost50, and that Almost50 is town now.
Not absolutely sure, but enough where I'm not comfortable voting there anymore.

Throwing a vote on the guy with two posts?!? Whenever I want to start thinking you're town, you do something inexplicable.

[Persivul]

Just fyi, I can't be lynched.

You're free to verify that but it's a waste of a lynch.

Vig me if you're really concerned about my alignment.

VOTE: RC

If you guys are gonna be dumb let's do this today.

obviously.

but better to lose D1 then D2

If you're unlynchable, what was your motivation for claiming such out of the blue when under no threat of being lynched?

What was the motivation for voting yourself?

[Persivul]

It's low probability, but

in this setup it's possible that we're in 6:7 lylo

already and you're chumming for a no lynch for the win.

While 6 of one scum alignment seems unlikely, with the number of posts today which sow confusion rather than seeking to clarify as deadline approaches, I'm thinking we might have a fairly large scum faction.

pedit smithereens: see bolded above

pedit radiant: what was your motivation for bringing it up?

[Persivul]

Was the ratio 6:7 meant to be scum to town? Because it's normally stated town:scum and the worst it can be is 7:6 (>50% must be town).
Having 6 non-town and all be the same faction is extremely unlikely but in this setup we should do our very best and not waste any opportunity to scumhunt.

I used to do town:scum but have seen it as scum:town in the wiki, but yeah, it's possible that it's 7:6 lylo. As I noted that's unlikely, but RC's bringing up unlynchable and suggesting it be tested (and smithereen's jumping right on board) pinged me and got me thinking about it.

If we have a vig they should consider taking out RC. If he's full unlynchable (as opposed to 1-shot) scum and gets to lylo I suppose town can't win. He would need to be taken out before then by a vig or another faction.

[Persivul]

I'm town though, so I wouldn't recommend that.

So why did you bring it up?

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

well actually I'm interested in new Ranger post ...

Jackle lets start posting ! shall we?

Star where are you girl?

Percival your read list have an update?

OMG, are you seriously letting him get into your head? It's obvious that RC thinks (correctly it would seem) that he can play you and is desperate to derail the Wednesday wagon. Why do you think that is? What kind of person tries to derail one wagon while not pushing another? Scum, that's who.

pedit: seems that scum have daytalk with the sudden concerted effort to attack me.

[Persivul]

Well, I don't know "damn well" what this specific group of players think, so I had to ask. But you do agree in essence that it's the right thing to do. You just don't think it will gain momentum. Right?

Yep...unless Wednesday's scum and scum have daytalk, or are just good at following each other's lead. This last page or two is really obvious. The sad thing is that Frozen fell for it. Radiant knows how to push her buttons.

Now go and vote for Jackal like a good little goon...

[Persivul]

Townier to scummier:

{Lane, Flubber, Blackstar}
{Frozen}
{Jackal, Starbuck, davesaz}
{Ranger, Almost50}
{Radiant, Wednesday, Smithereens}

And there's not much separating the bottom two groups. The pushes on lurkers after reaching L-1 and with deadline approaching are just horrible.

[Persivul]

That's correct. RC is also with us, so that makes 4 of us, all in one faction. Who else?

It seems to me that Your Majesty is possessed with the thought that Wednesday IS scum. Everybody who appears to be "slightly not interested" becomes her partner.

Yep. You paint that as suspicious, but it's scum hunting 101. If you guys were coming in, positively town reading Wednesday, and giving support for those reads, it wouldn't be suspicious. BUT, you're just coming in and pushing an alternate wagon on an easy target without putting your neck on the line for Wednesday. You're hedging. You don't want Wednesday lynched, but she might be, so when she flips red you want to be able to say that you weren't really

for

her, you just felt like policy lynching a lurker. You then have a built-in excuse when the lurker flips green. The last page or two was obvious basic scum play.

[Persivul]

Frozen, I gave you my reads, now give me yours.

[Persivul]

Nice it seems we have 2 candidate for end day lynch!

who is town ... who is scum ...

You find it nice that scum managed to run up a town counter wagon?

[Persivul]

I need to see both Jackle and Wednesday defense before I give you my reads ...

Give reads now, adjust later if you need to. It's bullshit for you to demand my reads then refuse to give yours.

[Persivul]

and no 'm happy to record all the interactions of people with these two wagons.

That's true. With the exception of you, who I think are town but easily swayed by RC, everyone on the Jackal wagon is in my lean scum or scum groups. Everyone on the Wednesday wagon is in my town or null groups.

Again, note that the people who ran up Jackal aren't town reading Wednesday, and the counter wagon they chose won't give much information (i.e. won't condemn them) if flipped. I'd actually prefer them to wagon me rather than Jackal or Starbuck.

[Persivul]

Radiant cowbells feels really scummy. All he does is randomly vote for everybody in the game for no reason whatsoever. He claims that he can't be lynched. He reiterates a million times that he's definitely town. And for some reason, as soon as Wednesday was about to get lynched RC started trying very hard to form a wagon on Jackal. I guess it's possible that Wednesday and RC were on the same side the entire time and tried not to make it too obvious before now.

VOTE: radiant cowbells

So stay on Wednesday for crying out loud.

[Persivul]

I think it's too early in the game to lynch a lurker, and I think after 25 pages if that's the best candidate, it's quite possibly scum, or scum driven.

BINGO! Wednesday doesn't get defended, but a wagon on an easy target appears out of thin air. This is pretty basic stuff. The Jackal wagon is largely scum.

[Persivul]

Tbh if that actually is what happened, all the more reason to pile on. Flips tend to tell us stuff like that.

True enough, but a flip of a lurker is the safest CW for scum to build, and it appeared way too quickly to be organic.

[Persivul]

Ok I need to reread how this stuff happened! I think I'm feeling the Dark Shadow of a multiball game here!

God helps me!

Multiball is possible, but I don't see why that Jackal CW would have sprung up in multiball.

[Persivul]

The fact that we can't get a lynch on scum mason claims suggests that there a are a lot of scum rn

And even if the joke claim is accepted, the very sudden appearance of the jackal counter wagon suggests the same.

[Persivul]

persival answer me please

Answer it yourself.

[Persivul]

arghhh everyone vanished?

If you want to talk to RC or Smithereens, just change your vote back to Wednesday. At least one of them will show up in short order.

[Persivul]

I think it's too early in the game to lynch a lurker, and I think after 25 pages if that's the best candidate, it's quite possibly scum, or scum driven.

BINGO! Wednesday doesn't get defended, but a wagon on an easy target appears out of thin air. This is pretty basic stuff. The Jackal wagon is largely scum.

Can I hug you

Only if you buy me dinner first...

[Persivul]

I like to play town because it's like doing a puzzle - you have to figure out the answers.

I also like long walks in the park and microwave burritos followed by hugs.

Your question would have been fine as a conversation starter early in the game, and in fact Ranger's question on the first deal was similar. On page 28, with two main wagons and less than 24 hours in phase, you're just talking to hear yourself talk. IMO you're town but you like to be the center of attention, hence you like being a swing vote.

[Persivul]

It will be interesting to see if the jackal wagon shifts to me as easily as it built up in the first place. Call it a conspiracy theory all you like - that was the worst wagon I've ever seen.

[Persivul]

I'm surprised it didn't build up on you.

I think that was purposeful. By doing a policy lynch on a lurker, the flip doesn't hurt them as much.

[Persivul]

I'm surprised it didn't build up on you.

I think that's because Jackal is basically a policy lynch, so his flip won't really say anything.

I doubt they want to lynch me even now. But, as we've already pointed out how bad the Jackal wagon is, Wednesday couldn't go there directly. So, she puts a vote on me, then later will have the approaching deadline as an excuse to move to Jackal.

[Persivul]

I thought I had responded to that already - didn't notice that we went to a new page.

[Persivul]

My only two valid lynches of the day are Jackal and Starbuck; and as I'm assuming the latter would be soon replaced that leaves me stuck with my vote on Jackal (unless something really tragic changes this stance).

why is that? lurking ?

Why are you on Jackal yourself?

Oh yeah:

[Persivul]

Everybody else I'm hoping to get a better read on judging by the flip of Jackal,

What reads would you get from a jackal town flip? Scum flip?

[Persivul]

I think I'd rather wait on some of our investigators to come up with results on the "top 4 suspects" as seen by the majority of players (if I understand what the majority feels correctly). The top 4 suspects are -in no particular order- Wednesday, Persivul, Almost (that's me) and Ranger. I'm hoping at least two of them will be investigated (by Cop, Tracker, Watcher, etc) so we will either have someone to lynch for the morrow OR 2 definitely cleared and trusted to be town, which will improve our ability to judge the other two.

This is pie in the sky. Best case is we get a positive for a lynch. There's no way we'll get two people cleared. First, only a cop can clear someone (and even then they could be third party). A negative from a tracker doesn't clear a person, as only 1 scum in a faction does the kill, and other power roles can also visit a NK. Second, PRs probably shouldn't out for an innocent anyway.

[Persivul]

What reads would you get from a jackal town flip? Scum flip?

If he flips town then I maybe inclined to adopt you logic on RC/Ranger.
If he flips scum then YOU, my friend become highly suspect for defending him.

if he flips town we can loose the game immediately ...

Uh, aren't you voting Jackal too? This is like when you left the Wednesday wagon first, then blamed the second person off it for ruining it. I really don't get your thought processes at times.

[Persivul]

Oh, but I did. I said I don't have definite scum reads at this time. It's all either/or. You see, for example .. the Persivul vs Wednesday + Ranger thing. If Persivul is town then Wednesday & Ranger become scum reads. If Wednesday is town that brings Ranger forward as town with Persivul demoted to scum read. Right now all 3 hold the same degree of "uncertain" in my view. I don't know which of them to take over the other, and while the reading eachother as town still doesn't bode well with me, the same applies to Persivul's "wholesale" of scum grouping, and especially so when I know my own alignment. However, you don't have to take my word for it. Still, does it seem logical to group 4-5 different players into the same faction?

See? Jackal doesn't come into play at all. You only think about his alignment when specifically asked about him.

[Persivul]

PLS lynch Jackal.

Persy can be derpy as town.

Thanks for the town read.

How about lane and flubber? Are they also derpy as town? I'd be first to admit they're better town players than me. I'm pretty certain they're town.

[Persivul]

umm

neither of them are particularly good town players tho imo

Do you town read them?

[Persivul]

The problem with a multiball scenario is, why wasn't Wednesday hammered?

[Persivul]

umm

neither of them are particularly good town players tho imo

Do you town read them?

[Persivul]

So, we need Frozen to switch back, or Starbuck to come back (doubtful).

[Persivul]

So RC, how about those reads on lane and flubber?

[Persivul]

Yeah, looks like a lynch, which is cool as I'm heading to the movies shortly.

[Persivul]

That's a hammer, I believe. We're in twilight now.

What do you think about RC's hammer?

[Persivul]

Damn, I wanted to see a flip. I've seen town pretend to be scum in twilight as a reaction test, so I don't believe anything before the flip.

If you haven't seen The Big Short, go see it this weekend. It's one of the best movies I've ever seen, and I'm a lot older than most people on here. (But, it's not for most teenagers - requires some level of maturity to enjoy I would think.)

[Persivul]

Yeah, particularly the blackjack explanation for CDOs.

[Persivul]

You said you're scum, now you say scum don't hang around. Whatever.

[Persivul]

I'm not up for twilight headgames. Goodnight!

[Persivul]

@ Flubber, smithereens (my current top town reads): do you think a massclaim would help at this point?

[Persivul]

It appears we have a mafia faction, a werewolf faction, and a vig. I see no reason to doubt smither's claim.

Ranger is mafia. Mafia presumably killed lane. Lane was townie as can be. He didn't pressure Ranger much, and in fact proposed that the Ranger wagon be moved to Wednesday, so his death doesn't directly implicate Ranger.

Lane was very interested in davesaz.

Starbuck was a WW. He was presumably killed by smither's bullet, which was intended for me, but redirected. What's the motivation for the redirection? What actions were expected on me, and what alignment would want to redirect them to Starbuck?

[Persivul]

definetly not

*I know you didn't ask me*

But NO

1 - Roles has nothing to do with alignments

Targets and actions do.

2 - That will just help the scum to avoid the thing blocked the warewolf kill
3 - That will show out our other investigators as well.

Those are true.

even suggesting that is scummy

Not at all. It's more a matter of timing. Tomorrow might be better, although I might claim today. Still thinking about it.

[Persivul]

that makes perfect sense if your the redirector yourself.

or your in a mafia faction and they did for you

No, as the the redirection target makes no sense.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Jackal

Hunch from night actions.

[Persivul]

ok my town block : RC ,

Agree for now.

Almost50

Not sure. He's trying too hard, can't tell if that's town eagerness or scum nervousness. If scum, he's probably mafia, not WW.
people who I like to think their town becuase of the claims : Jackal ,[/quote]
Rolecop is useful by any alignment in this setup

Smithreen

I tend to believe his claim and was town reading him after reviewing ISOs and meta anyway.

ok 5 remaining people : Ranger , Persivul , BlackStar , Flubbernugget , davesaz

these are the people who I will try to sort later tonight and 1 of them is today lynch.

Check a flubber scum game and you'll probably be able to remove him from your list.

[Persivul]

His claim is completly beleivable. He knows my role and from his view I have less than 33% chance to be scum so I'm probably town.

It may be completely believable to you, but as I don't know your role, or have a strong read on you, it doesn't mean squat to me.

is that about your action?! or the night kills ?

It's indirect from my night action. It's not strong.

[Persivul]

But why should he come out and out that result for me?

I know how he concluded that I'm not scum ...

He didn't lied about his role, or me , so

I think I might wanna put him in null , town lean for now

[Persivul]

Wednesday, just as I said, was town.

No, she wasn't. She was a survivor. As the wiki says, "Survivors are traditionally considered anti-Town and thus premium lynch targets."

What do survivors do in lylo? Oh yeah, they make a deal with scum for the win.

Wednesday was a successful lynch and I don't like that you and Almost50 are pretending otherwise. The reasoning was partially valid and partially faulty, as is the case with most lynches.

[Persivul]

if you have anything suggesting he is guilty I'm here to hear that.

You were on his wagon yourself at the end of D1.

You apparently thought he was guilty then. Why?

All that's changed is that he hinted that he knows your role and that he thinks you're town.

[Persivul]

I can't see a reason for scum to do that.

You don't think scum want town allies?

[Persivul]

Unlynchable (full and 1-shot) are modifiers.

[Persivul]

As per the ban announcement, Smithereens will be replaced.

Cool, the jew and autism comments were completely unacceptable. Reading overnight I came to accept her as town, but I didn't like it.

[Persivul]

Just fyi, I can't be lynched.

You're free to verify that but it's a waste of a lynch.

Vig me if you're really concerned about my alignment.

Where have you been FA?

[Persivul]

1- OR we had only 1 WW and they got killed thus their kill didn't go through (someone more experienced in modding should respond to this: Would the kill have still gone through if the killer is killed themselves??)

2- Yes, I'm leaning that way.

3- I highly suspect there are two groups of the same faction, since this is NOT a tailored game. I mean, how would the mod decide which player to place in group 1 & which belong to group 2 if they all opted for "mafia"??

I think the idea was to group all players of the same alignment in the same group, unless their modifier suggested otherwise.

Besides, we already have Smithereens claim, so that's where the other shot came from. Or do you have reason to doubt her claim?

Kills generally resolve simultaneously. If I target you and you target me for kills, we both die.

There can't be two groups of the same faction in this setup. All mafia are a faction. All WWs are a faction.

[Persivul]

Considering the flavor, mod's response, and smither's claim, we either have a mafia faction in addition to the WWs, or a PGO or other gun using role.

[Persivul]

So we need to lynch Persy then (my favourite pick tbh, bc

I did promise him that if Starbuck flipped scum

).

Where did you promise that?

[Persivul]

No one's going to choose tree stump or restless spirit.

[Persivul]

So we need to lynch Persy then (my favourite pick tbh, bc

I did promise him that if Starbuck flipped scum

).

Where did you promise that?

[Persivul]

@Persivul: Check post #720. See if it rings a bell.

That's where you said you'd scum read me if

Jackal

flipped scum.

Now you're claiming that you said you would scum read me if

Starbuck

flipped scum.

It's tough to keep lies straight...

[Persivul]

@Blackstar: I honestly got the two mixed up in my head, as well as in my text remarks on my PC. You see, I put all 3 (Persivul, Starcuck & Jackal) as possibly belonging to the same faction. That was based on Persivul's refusal to even consider either of them over Wednesday, and Persivuls post #626.

Yes, in 626 I said that I'd rather be lynched

MYSELF

rather than either of the two biggest lurkers, as my lynch would give much more information. You somehow take that as indicating that the three of us are all scum together. That's bad on its own, but NOW...one of those was NK'd, and

I'm voting the other

.

You need to learn how to abandon a theory when the facts go against it. I had a theory that the Jackal wagon was a desperate CW to Wednesday. I though Wed would flip red and we'd go through the Jackal wagon for the rest of the scum - easy peasy. BUT, Wednesday flipped independent. That's still agreat D1 lynch, but it completely blows the CW theory. I accept that and re-read ISOs overnight in light of that new information. Clinging to a pet theory regardless of the facts won't get you far in this game.

[Persivul]

This is also why I prefer a Persivul lynch over Jackal. Persivul is the "middleman" between the two. There's no obvious direct link between Starbuck & Jackal. The only link between the two is that Persivul defended them both hard enough he preferred a push on himself over either of them.

Hard defended? Are you a fucking idiot, or outright lying? Please, quote that oh so hard defense I made of them.

And did you notice that one's dead and

I'm voting the other

?

[Persivul]

@Almost50: what do you think about the man on the grassy knoll?

[Persivul]

Hey Persivul is in this game!
Ohh joy, we are goign to have fun

Actually it won't be too bad, at least on my part, as I was already reading your predecessor as town. Racist, ableist (when did that become a word?) town, but still town. Although she did claim to take a shot at me last night. Can you confirm that?

[Persivul]

Can you give me a catch up if it isn't too much trouble?

Wednesday was big push of D1. Ranger was her main defender. Late in phase a wagon on Jackal (a lurker) sprang up very quickly and seemed like a CW. But, Wednesday flipped Survivor, so that wasn't the case. Your slot claims vig, says she shot me, but guessed that it was redirected since there were two gunshot deaths. But, it could be that I was protected and a PGO or something explains the second death. There is definitely a WW faction, and the two gunshot deaths seems to indicate a mafia faction as well, but roles could explain them too.

p-edit: "Persivul pushed the hardest for the wedesday wagon and now everyone thinks that he is scum who somehow knew wednesday;s alignment." Not true that everyone thinks that, and it makes no sense. If I'm scum I have no problem with a Jackal lynch unless we're teammates, and I'm now voting him.

[Persivul]

Why would people assume he knew Wednesdays alignment?

That was actually the first I heard that theory, but supposedly everyone thinks that.

Check Ranger's reads lists. IMO they're awful - two lurkers in the scum, lane in null even though it was clearly his town game.

[Persivul]

Town - {Flubber, firebringer}
Lean town - {RC, FA}
Null - {davesaz}
Lean scum - {Almost50, blackstar}
Scum - {Ranger, jackal}

Regarding Almost50, if Ranger flips scum, Almost moves to scum. If Ranger flips town, Almost moves to null.

[Persivul]

@Almost50: what do you think about the man on the grassy knoll?

Huh???

Thought you might be old enough to get the reference. It's from JFK assassination conspiracy theories. I'm saying that your theories are wild and unsupported. And while we're on that subject...where's that case showing my hard defense of Starbuck?

[Persivul]

@Blackstar: why is your avatar gargling?

[Persivul]

see persival

I have a strong town block here . if your town reading me , Jackle is not there. if you townreading me RC shouldn't be there! and baka is always like this so your read list in my view is a basic trash at this point

Just because I think you're town doesn't mean I think your reads are any good. I don't. And actually I don't know how to read you myself, I'm sheeping RC on you.

[Persivul]

Droog was WW and replaced Starbuck.
Does Jackal make sense as teammate to Starbuck/Droog?

What's your thought on that question?

[Persivul]

those are not reads.. their information based

And again, until you share the information, it's meaningless to me. If this information really builds a solid town block, you should support a massclaim. But, you oppose it.

I'm currently voting jackal based on information, but I haven't shared that information (and it's admittedly weak), so I don't expect it to mean anything to others.

[Persivul]

Jackal never did anything that would directly connect himself to Starbuck. It feels like Davesaz wanted someone to say that they think Jackal is scum so that he could agree and suggest that we lynch him.

I also first read it as a suggestion that Jackal be lynched. But, as Jackal was already under heavy fire yesterday, he could want people to note that there indeed is no direct connection to Starbuck, and so jackal is

less

suspicious. I want clarification from davesaz.

[Persivul]

Two davesaz votes 10 posts apart...interesting...

[Persivul]

I will destroy you if you lynch my townblock...

Fuck you, I'm so sick of you issuing orders like you're some great player.

[Persivul]

Massclaim breaks nothing as setup was "created" In the most loose term of that word

That's a really weak question that makes me wonder about your activity

It's not the same as in an open setup, but night actions and targets could answer some questions. For example, I can partially verify something about one person. FA seems to think she has enough info to justify a town block.

[Persivul]

Lane was very interested in davesaz.

Lane's only danger to scum exists in how well he can look town. I've never seen him make a really effective push on someone before

[Persivul]

^^ Rest got cut off.

1. You snipped other pertinent points about Lane's kill.
2. He was in fact NK'd. Why?

[Persivul]

Check Ranger's reads lists. IMO they're awful

Tell that to Starbuck.
You know.
The dead scum I was scumreading.

How about Wednesday, the dead Survivor you were town reading? Or Lane, the dead obvtown you kept in your null pile?

[Persivul]

Towen cop.
Fuck off.

Jackal is not mafia.

FYI I'm town tracker and I tracked davesaz to Jackal last night. At first I read his initial post of the day as incriminating on Jackal and so voted him. Later I realized it could be read otherwise and so asked for clarification, and it was obvious from his answers that he's cop.

UNVOTE:
[post=Ranger]Ranger[/post]

[Persivul]

VOTE: Ranger

[Persivul]

Almost, why are you talking about a cult as if it's established fact?

[Persivul]

Check a flubber scum game and you'll probably be able to remove him from your list.

If your town read is meta based your weak inquiry to me comes off as buddying

Consider my overall play and the gamestate at the time I asked the question. It's not buddying. I'm very concerned with FA's supposed town block and think we should be working together. If you don't trust me, that's your call, but I think town's chances will decrease.

What's your current lynch pool, and who do you find most dangerous in that pool? Currently there's very little focus and there's no wagons to generate information. If this doesn't change we're going to end up with a rushed compromise lynch and no wagons to read.

[Persivul]

Jackle hinted me my role

So...fucking...what?

Rolecop in no way indicates towniness, and in fact is generally a more useful role for scum than for town.

[Persivul]

RC Ranger Starbuck Blackstar lynch pool for today

Pls discuss

Starbuck's dead.
RC I had as lean scum during D1 but reading again overnight he looked better.
Blackstar is lynchable.
Ranger is my favorite lynch.

[Persivul]

Blackstar and Ranger both have Flubber at/near the bottom of their lists. Why? He's actively scumhunting. From my experience he doesn't have a great scum game. I understand that I get scum read all the time, by I see no reason for a flubber scum read.

[Persivul]

Blackstar, I just searched your ISO for flub and found no progression on your read of him. Explain why flubber is scum.

[Persivul]

@flubbernugget

FA keeps saying that Jackal hinted at her role. But I'd didn't see anything like that. He just said "I think you're probably town" and somehow that meant that nobody should vote for him.

If Davesaz is really a cop, he should be actively grilling people so that he has a good idea of who he should investigate at night. Instead he just lurks and pops out whenever his name is mentioned. I called him a lurker yesterday and he only had like 25 posts. Immediately after that he boosted his post count into the 40s.

Obviously he did that just so that he didn't look scummy, but it had the opposite effect. I think you're scum because your read list put the two scummiest people as town.

It's very common for a cop to lay low. If he's actively grilling people, he has a higher risk of being NK'd.

[Persivul]

Persivul is scummy because he's basically been in full defense mode for the entirety of day 2. Yeah, I know that you're getting scum read a lot and you want people to trust you but it feels slightly desperate. I'd be more inclined to believe that you're town of you built a strong case against somebody.

LOL - you obviously haven't seen me in full defense mode. This is nothing, and it's nothing largely because lines are now being drawn. If I die, I flip town, and you and Ranger are scum.

[Persivul]

explain how persuival 's tracker claim plays into this pls

dave claimed cop - not guilty on Jack so thats even more convincing about my town read on jackle

dave cop thing can be fake , I don't know

but now I have a better feeling on persival , the more I'm looking at this

@Blackstar the fact that my role is related to last night kills was the hint

I don't believe the cop claim for one sec

It was just the safest claim there ...

and even if I believe it that doesn't show he is town

[Persivul]

Who exactly is your town block anyway? Do they all feel the same way about it, or are you just calling your reads a block?

[Persivul]

^ @FA

[Persivul]

I'm becoming quite suspicious of Blackstar.

So put a vote on him...don't cost nothin'.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Blackstar

[Persivul]

the droog kill was like a town vig action not scum one

You know they claimed that they targeted me, not droog, right?

[Persivul]

Wow, I just realized something that I should've noticed a long time ago. But I'm not sure if I should say anything about it.

That was scummy as hell.

[Persivul]

@almost50
Ugh... Alright, I guess. I'm the town bus driver. I targeted Persivul and radiantcowbells on N1. But RC didn't die and Starbuck/droog did instead. I PMed my night action to the mod really early and didn't look at it again until now so I kind of forgot that I targeted RC and not Starbuck. I guess I also didn't care because a werewolf died. Since RC is still alive that must mean that there's a second bus driver.

What was your alignment card?

What did you hope to accomplish by redirecting from me to RC?

[Persivul]

On day 1 I thought you were town because you called out Wednesday on his weird behavior. So I expected the scum to try and kill you. I didn't really trust RC so I gambled that he was scum and thought that I could redirect the kill from you onto him.

What was your alignment card?

[Persivul]

@Persy: I'd appreciate your input as well. ASSUMING BlackStar's statements all to be true, how would TWO BusDrivers targeting the same person resolve?

That's a question for mod.

BUT, note that it's not necessarily the case that two redirectors targeted me. It could mean that a second redirector targeted RC and droog. So, the kill went from me, to RC, to droog.

Or it could be that Blackstar is mistaken, or lying.

These kinds of things are why I suggested a massclaim earlier.

[Persivul]

On day 1 I thought you were town because you called out Wednesday on his weird behavior. So I expected the scum to try and kill you. I didn't really trust RC so I gambled that he was scum and thought that I could redirect the kill from you onto him.

What was your alignment card?

Town

I mean the actual card, like vanilla townie or tracker.

[Persivul]

You got clairvoyant in both the first deal and the second?

[Persivul]

You got clairvoyant in both the first deal and the second?

oh. I didnt understnad your question. I got claiyvoyant and then the second time I chose busdriver

You still don't understand. The second time you had cop and bus driver. What was the third card?

[Persivul]

@FA: can you gather up all the role and target claims in one post?

[Persivul]

@Almost - Actually no, I'm gonna need to work through this more thoroughly later. Hopefully FA or someone will compile the whole list of claims and actions to make it easier. Although roles don't indicate alignment in this setup, actions and reasons for those actions can be weighed.

[Persivul]

Town Cop
Neighborizer
Town Bus Driver

I chose bus driver and got the role pm confirming that. But then I got another pm from the mod saying that he made a mistake. The combinations i chose wouldn't give me the role that I wanted, town bus driver. He had to change the neighborizer card to vanilla townie and discard the cop role.

I'm not asking about the combinations, I'm asking about the three underlying cards. In your PM for the second draw, assuming it's like mine, you got three unnumbered cards. Below that, you got three numbered combinations.

I'm asking about the unnumbered cards.

[Persivul]

I thought great idea was mass claim proof from breaking it, so how is this really helping us?

Helps with reads. For instance, if you think I appeared townie on D1, then those that protected me (via redirection) on N1 would appear townie as well. In fact,

UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

I'm asking about the unnumbered cards.

Can I ask the same of you?

FBI Agent
Clairvoyant
Tracker

[Persivul]

I thought great idea was mass claim proof from breaking it, so how is this really helping us?

Helps with reads. For instance, if you think I appeared townie on D1, then those that protected me (via redirection) on N1 would appear townie as well. In fact,

UNVOTE:

How would they be town? Did they know my slot was vi? That my slot shot you?

Dude, seriously? Scum don't protect aggressive townies. Your slot is irrelevant for that conclusion.

[Persivul]

Alive
1. Frozen Angel - Discard Survivor, claim watchlisted doctor
2. Almost50 - Discard Vanilla Cop, claim double action buss driver
3. Smithereens - Discard Werewolf Roleblocker, claim gravedigger vig
6. Radiant Cowbells - Discard Bodyguard, proved ----- governor
7. Jackal711 - Discard Vanilla Townie, claim ----- Rolecop
8. Ranger - Discard Werewolf, claim miller -------
9. Persivul - Discard FBI Agent, claim hirsute tracker
11. BlackStar - Discard Cop, claim alpha buss driver
12. Flubbernugget - Discard Tree Stump, 1 shot gladiator
13. Davesaz - Discard Double Voter, claim cop

Dead
4. Wednesday_ - Discard Mafia Jailkeeper, no claim, Flipped Survivor PI
5. Starbuck - Discard Hider, no claim, flipped WW FBI
10. lane0168 - Discard Cult Leader, Flipped town neighbor FBI

Actions claimed :
- Rc governed me
- I healed RC
- FB shot persival
- Dave checked Jackle - not mafia result
- Jackle claimed to role coped me - he knew I healed the WW kill - obviously knew I was doctor
- Black star buss derived persival - rc
- Almost bussdriving persival - starbuck and himself - blackstar

Thanks. Most of that is pretty believable. Absent gambits,

FA & RC look good as there was no WW kill but there's a flipped WW.
Almost & Blackstar look good for protecting me (although we need clarification)

Mod: If two bus drivers target the same person, how do those resolve?

Flubber looks good as gladiator is a bad choice for scum, and it's provable

[Persivul]

I have some difficulty believing your doc claim

We know we have WWs, but we didn't have a WW kill. That's not explained by redirects. A doc fits those facts.

BUT...FA, why did you target RC? Why did you think he was at high risk for NK? Who did you think was going to target him, and why?

[Persivul]

SvS theatrics maybe? Not sure what to think of this.

[Persivul]

Uh, Blackstar says he redirected from me to RC.

FB says he vigged me, which would pass the vig shot to RC.

FA says she docced RC.

RC is alive.

This all works out. The issue then is that Almost also claims to have redirected from me to another target. I've asked mod for clarification on how that resolves.

So chill out.

[Persivul]

I'm macho, I cannot be protected by doctors.

Yeah...so WTF did you govern FA?

[Persivul]

thought I couldn't have been NKed.

Why not?

[Persivul]

Macho isn't bulletproof. You're making no sense.

[Persivul]

forget my heal for one moment

if both buss drivers are claiming the truth persival was redirected to both RC and star what is this shit?!

@MOD . If a vig target person X and he get buss drived to two people (Y and Z) both Y and Z will die?

No shit, I already asked this. Why don't you two just chill out until we get an answer.

[Persivul]

We need a claim from Ranger...

[Persivul]

Just wait for mod and talk about something else in the meantime. This cat fight could all be for nothing.

[Persivul]

So, Persy was targetted by both WWs AND the vig! You're most popular it seems, Persy.

I'm usually fairly controversial.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: RC
VOTE: Ranger

I've seen Ranger as town, in a recent game. This doesn't read as his town game.

I think that's because Jackal is basically a policy lynch, so his flip won't really say anything.

This is also why Persivul is scum with Jackal.

I made it

VERY CLEAR

that Jackal was not being lynched for lurking.
Jackal was being lynched for acting like scum.
That statement still stands.

This is the same Jackal as Murder on Madness Mountain.
Persivul is acting towards Jackal similarly to how Rob treated Jackal.

They are scum together.

The only reason you're still alive is I'm town. If I were scum, WHICH I AM NOT, you would have been my NK choice.

Yes, you've seen my scum game. But my town game is no different.

That said, I'm willing to believe Ranger is town.

VOTE: smithereens
Uh, yeah.

What changed your Ranger read? What recent game were you referring to?