Blitz 3: Dead of Winter Mafia - Game Over

[Expedience]

VOTE: The Jester

No Cults,

Jesters

or Lynchers

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: The Jester
VOTE: The Silver Bard

What do you hope to gain by not participating in RVS? I would myself think that RVS is part of getting the game going.

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: The Jester
VOTE: The Silver Bard

What do you hope to gain by not participating in RVS? I would myself think that RVS is part of getting the game going.

RVS gives zero information. It is only nonsensical fooling around before the games start. In blitz games we cannot afford that.

Do you think I am scum for wanting to end the RVS? I guess yes, since you are voting me.
Why do you think I am scum for wanting to end it?

I generally dislike it when people make comments about how there isn't enough discussion of the type that they want without actually taking steps to create that type of discussion.

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: The Jester
VOTE: The Silver Bard

What do you hope to gain by not participating in RVS? I would myself think that RVS is part of getting the game going.

RVS gives zero information. It is only nonsensical fooling around before the games start. In blitz games we cannot afford that.

Do you think I am scum for wanting to end the RVS? I guess yes, since you are voting me.
Why do you think I am scum for wanting to end it?

I generally dislike it when people make comments about how there isn't enough discussion of the type that they want without actually taking steps to create that type of discussion.

So your opinion is that I haven't created the type of discussion I want?

We are now discussing your vote on me, which is no longer RVS. I'd say that is creating the type of discussion I want.

I don't think that you created the type of discussion that you want, considering how you now have a wagon forming on you which doesn't seem particularly desirable.

[Expedience]

Having someone vote me for wanting to stop the random votes is probably the most desirable result I can get from stating it. As it gets the discussion going between me and the player who votes me.

If that was the most desirable result, was it really a good action to take?

You have a reason for voting me, and I can question your reasons, and start making my mind up about you.

So I ask you again. Do you find it scummy that I don't want to random vote? And that I want to end the random vote stage?

That question is slanted in a way that makes it difficult for me to answer. Instead I'll answer the question "Do you find 14 scummy?".

I find 14 scummy, in part but not entirely because you don't want to end the random vote stage. The fact that you are discouraging RVS is to some extent anti-town, but I can conceivably see why you wouldn't want to do it in the Blitz setup.

As I said in 19, it also had to do with the fact that your post seemed some kind of attempt to guide the conversation in a certain direction by making a "hypocritical mediator type" comment. It could be used by scum to establish themselves as some kind of leader without them actually doing what they ask others to do.

The tone of your post was rather antagonistic as well which encouraged me to vote for you, although I don't think this is scummy.

[Expedience]

That's not how RVS works. RVS is reads-based. It continues for as long as people arent voting for reads-based reasons. And becuae one person claims 'to be out' it doesn't mean that stage is over.

I understand that, and I am better for it.

I agree with what you're saying although I think you meant "RVS is not reads-based." instead of "RVS is reads-based.".

How do you feel about The Silver Bard's statement asking people to stop random voting?

[Expedience]

Then he pokes Bard saying they were antagonistic. This reads as if it is from a scum chat and I suspect Scorpious and Bard are aligned.

Could you elaborate on why you believe this? I don't see why you'd think it was "from a scum chat".

Also, you're apparently scumreading him for posting things that sound like they are "from a scum chat", when he actually quoted my post, and you're townreading me...?

[Expedience]

Since you can quote (and presumably snip? I hope so), I read a game where someone had a similar post restriction and they gave them quotes to use, here have some stuff to say:

Yes.

No.

I don't know.

I agree with this.

I disagree with this.

I believe this because:

The player I am about to vote I read as town.

The player I am about to vote I read as null-town.

The player I am about to vote I read as null.

The player I am about to vote I read as null-scum.

The player I am about to vote I read as scum.

The player I am about to vote I want to lynch today.

[Expedience]

Sure. The way I read is that it sounds like he is chastising Bard for being antagonistic.

I think I see what you mean, in that the comment he put below the quote was a bit condescending but the part I wrote that he quoted wasn't.

Yes on the part about scum chat and the other reasons posted above. I am town reading you because of how Scorpious quoted your post and responded. Furthermore Scorpious did not vote for Bard but agrees it was antagonistic. Why?

I can't answer for Scorpious, but I would say that that is probably because he doesn't think that an antagonistic tone is scummy. I don't, in any case.

He voted me for being a Saints fan. Surely an actual reason coming along should have made him do something or question or poke or attempt to solve the game.

It was on the first page and very RVS, I don't think you should expect him to have good reasons.

Do any of 3, 4, 18 or 39 bother you for the same reasons that 24 does?

[Expedience]

im finding this game hard because how can i unnecessarily wagon titus day one when shes the mod???

I don't know who to vote.

Anyone is better than no one, in my opinion. And The Silver Bard is even better than no one!

[Expedience]

im finding this game hard because how can i unnecessarily wagon titus day one when shes the mod???

I don't know who to vote.

Anyone is better than no one, in my opinion. And The Silver Bard is even better than anyone!

fixed

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: The Silver Bard

I do not like either of the current wagons. The Silver Bard looks very town to me at this point. I don't feel confident about lynching A Royal Saint, his push on Scorpious was bad but I don't think that this makes him scummy to be honest. I looked at one of A Royal Saint's other games and I don't think that this is scummy, it wouldn't manifest itself in this way. Also he just softclaimed so yeah this is a bad wagon.

I am not liking davesaz however. He seems unwilling to commit to a confident stance other than an easy push on a lurker. His thoughts seem shallow and he's trying to appear like he's scumhunting when he's only pointing out superficial things, for example:

Before i forget

UNVOTE: Davesto to keep the daves even.

This pings scum a bit. Are you concerned about balance like this often?

This is also a loaded question, Makoto seems hardly "concerned".

And also (as an example of shallow observations):

I'm also looking at hiphop for that entrance. It feels like scum waiting for a wagon to develop. The_Jester's "haven't received a PM" thing could be honest or it could also be an excuse for sitting back and watching for a place to jump in.

Neither of these are good reasons to me. Hiplop probably has a good reason for not voting, davesaz doesn't even ask him why which is what should have been done. Jester claiming to have not received a PM is most likely not alignment indicative at all, even worse davesaz fence-sits here, just "oh maybe its scummy maybe not idk". He just says this to look town and set up later pushes, he doesn't really do much with them (he votes gameplay later).

More for tradition's sake than anything else...
VOTE: Davsto

Wow, fast start. TBH getting real content within the first 1-2 pages is refreshing after seeing many games with RVS that goes on for 10+.
I'm working and do not have time to analyze the early content. Maybe in a few hours. Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

So you like me trying to get out of RVS, and then put down a random vote?

I saw the RVS comment from Makoto Nanaya about evening out the Daves and wanted to test what would happen if I followed it up. It wasn't really random, but it needed to look random in order to be a valid test. Being a little annoyed at having to explain that it was a joke seems town. Weak but in a game this quick we'll need every indicator we can get.

This doesn't really address what The Silver Bard said because how does RVS voting for Davsto test what would happen if you followed up Makoto Nanaya..? I don't understand. He posted 37 before Makoto posted 39 and he supposedly started ""testing"" her, so I don't really know what this means. While I do agree with his assessment of Makoto, there is also some vacillation with "weak but useful" that I don't like.

Who is your number one scumread?

You had been, but it was far from strong. I got more defensiveness from reading your posts than I'd expect for the subject matter. I need to evaluate this recent string of posts. Lots of questions might be a good sign, but only if they aren't manipulative, which remains to be seen.

He is fence-sitting and hesitant to commit to an opinion, even giving reasons why he might think differently but then nullifying them.

My observation on Pisskop is that his alignment is usually opposite my natural read -- the townier he looks, the more likely to be scum.
The way my luck runs, as soon as I switch to reading him that way he'll start acting townie when town.

Not like I'm known for snap reads anyway.

He seems to display a kind of self-deprecating attitude which looks to me like fence-sitting scum afraid to give an opinion early on.

The way he answers The Silver Bard in 106 seems somewhat forced.

Not a lot of things happening in this game anyway.

VOTE: gameplay506
Plenty going on and avoiding it is just wrong, especially with short days.

This is misrepresentation and scum narrativey, gameplay wasn't avoiding the things that were going on because in that very post he said "Royal and Klingo are seem off to me". And this could almost be compared to the self-deprecation that davesaz showed earlier.

VOTE: davesaz

We have about 43 hours left btw.

I am also a bit unsure about Kligoncelt's vote on gameplay as well, but I don't feel comfortable about voting for someone who can't defend themselves at all.

[Expedience]

If Scorpious and I were scum together why would Scorpious coach me in thread?

It would be much easier to do so in scum daychat.

You are still just pushing your agenda. You are scum.

I mean, yes he's wrong, but he's not scum for it. Scum aren't so obvious as to push this kind of stupid agenda on d1, you're going to have to look harder.

[Expedience]

It's a playstyle thing. Some people are confrontational, others use a more oblique approach. The trick is reading how people respond.
Lots of game links available on my wiki page, feel free to compare.

Well, I read some of your ISO in this one in which you were town. And surprisingly meta actually seems to be vaguely useful for once and I see your point. Like, I probably would've called you scum for the same reasons if I was in that game but you flipped town.

Looking at you as scum here, you actually seem more aggressive which is the opposite of what I would expect.

I am still not convinced that this makes you town, becuase meta can be changed, and you kind of ignored the other aspect of my accusation: the shallow pseudo-scumhunting. I'm not sure how to pursue this further, but I am not scumreading you much any more. I will retract my vote for now.

UNVOTE: davesaz

At the moment I am seeing Ranger, The Silver Bard and pisskop as town.

Maybe we should just lynch gameplay or Davsto or something, most of the active people actually seem pretty town to me. Davsto is not doing much and he just voted for someone who I am pretty certain is town.

[Expedience]

3: No useful observations.
88: No useful observations.
114: Asking for opinions on Silver Bard, implying that he doesn't agree with the wagon but not outright saying so.
119: The rhetorical quasi-questions are basically already answered by what Ranger has said: "While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger."
126: The vote almost feels like an afterthought put there so he doesn't look scummy for suspecting someone without voting them.

Davsto, is changing a vote off a stronger scumread and onto a lesser scumread really that bad considering the setup and time constraints? It's sometimes necessary to compromise.

If you think Ranger is scum, do you think her breaking the rules and saying her secondary wincon on the first page was fake?

[Expedience]

Davsto, is changing a vote off a stronger scumread and onto a lesser scumread really that bad considering the setup and time constraints? It's sometimes necessary to compromise.

Not on the first day of a three day limit.

If you think Ranger is scum, do you think her breaking the rules and saying her secondary wincon on the first page was fake?

Well I certainly think reading him as town for it is a bad idea. I find that town would probably want to keep it secret even if they didn't know that you weren't allowed to say it to avoid policy lynches on them for having some terrible one, whereas scum would totally try to fake one for towncred.

I'm questioning you because that alone makes me ~90% sure Ranger is town. I think that if scum!Ranger was trying to fake a post restriction, they would've understood that scum don't have secondary wincons, and deduced such a rule would probably exist to prevent a potentially gamebreaking massclaim d1. Or at least, they would've worried that they could be outed by the fact that they didn't have a secondary wincon to claim easily, and possibly asked / tried to investigate how to stop this. Also I think that Ranger deliberately breaking the rules to appear town is a very unlikely scenario.

What do you think of Klingon's implied post restriction?

[Expedience]

VOTE: gameplay506

This is a very, VERY bad wagon.

I agree with you to some extent, but why do you think this? Is it just because ARS is on the wagon?

If you think Ranger is scum, do you think her breaking the rules and saying her secondary wincon on the first page was fake?

Don't get me modkilled, please? We can't discuss this.

From looking at the rules I'm fairly sure it's okay to discuss the secondary wincons so long as you aren't talking about your own.

[Expedience]

@Scorpious ...Really??!?!?! If you are right that only helps scum to point that out in thread if they didn't know :/ I really can't believe we have to consolidate off of you :/

The scum know all the secret wincons, so this doesn't really matter. It was fairly obvious anyway.

[Expedience]

VOTE: Klingoncelt

Scum know

secret

wincons.

So why is it supposedly this obvious if it's "secret"?

I think Klingon just chose a fake one that wasn't on the list at the start of the game, and one that would "confirm" her as town to everyone else.

Also she is pushing a lurker and apparently has no other scumreads.

Worst case scenario: we mislynch what is effectively a vote.

[Expedience]

Think about it guys.

Rule against saying post restrictions publicly to prevent the game from being broken, suddenly here is Klingon with extremely obvious post restriction. If we assumed it was not faked, then it would be partially gamebreaking in that it would all but confirm Klingon as town. Or, at least, that's why we can't just massclaim secondary wincons d1. The entire point behind them is that they are meant to be subtle. Essentially, this would not be added to the game because the very act of following the post restriction constitutes heavily hinting at it, which is against the rules.

If you look up the game itself that this game is based on, it's meant to be like that too, with the secondary wincons not immediately obvious but subtly influencing how players act.

[Expedience]

Can I ask who said that the post restriction is Kling's secret wincon? That seems like a logical leap.

I guess it is a logical leap, but what else could it realistically be?

[Expedience]

VOTE: Klingoncelt

Scum know

secret

wincons.

So why is it supposedly this obvious if it's "secret"?

I think Klingon just chose a fake one that wasn't on the list at the start of the game, and one that would "confirm" her as town to everyone else.

Also she is pushing a lurker and apparently has no other scumreads.

Worst case scenario: we mislynch what is effectively a vote.

I don't think a lynch on Klingoncelt is the way to go today.

As I have mentioned previously I think scum could easily make up this kind of postrestriction, so it isn't proof that she is town.

But it is basicly a policylynch, and a policylynch that we won't gain much information from if she is town. It is easy for scum to jump on this wagon, as she cannot defend herself.

If we don't agree on a lynch on either Saint or Ranger though, I will consolidate on Klingoncelt, as she will be an uncertainty throughout the game.

It's not really a policy lynch from my perspective, I think Klingon is scum faking a post restriction. If you want to view it as a policy lynch because there is a lower risk associated with it you're welcome to do that, but there is evidence to suggest that Klingon is scum.

[Expedience]

Rule against saying post restrictions publicly

Show me the rule. It refers to secondary wincons, not post restrictions.

In fact, under the rules, a post restriction

can't

be a wincon because the act of following the restriction would break the rules, but not following it would also break the rules.(For not playing to your wincon)
It's a paradox that is only broken by makeing a PR a role, not a secondary wincon.

Yeah, you have a point to some extent, but I don't think that Klingon would have both a post restriction and then another secondary wincon because that would just be redundant. How you're saying a post restriction can't be a secondary wincon is precisely why I think that it's being faked.

[Expedience]

Btw guys I am too lazy to read but did I get OMGUS'ed?

Technically you did I think.

It would be nice if you read through and gave your thoughts on the game. Also inb4 more tunneling even though apathy is not really scummy.

[Expedience]

davesaz, would you consider Klingon a policy lynch?

[Expedience]

I don't like gameplays recent posts. He says he would read and then comes back and says he is to lazy to read.

This sees very antitown to me. I don't get why town would do this, unless to provoke a reaction. It could also be some secret wincon or something. But I find this behaviour suspicious to say the least.

I agree that it is anti-town, but you seem to be missynonymizing "anti-town" and "suspicious". I think it's probably null, it just means that he isn't really trying as either alignment. And the fact that he hasn't posted much just means that we have even less to read him on.

He is doing anti-town things and not scummy things, so I consider it a policy lynch. Which is why I asked davesaz that question earlier to potentially trap him into a corner, but there actually isn't enough time to dance with questioning.

[Expedience]

But what I am saying is that Klingon is the better policy lynch because there is a stronger chance that she is scum.

[Expedience]

Ok,lets think about this..

who honestly believes Celt is faking?

why would a role be so "obvious" scum?

I find that method of thinking in this instance is just lazy..

I think Celt is faking. I don't think that she genuinely has that post restriction, because of how I think the setup was designed. What do you mean by lazy, and what makes lazy thinking bad in this instance?

[Expedience]

I think this discussion of KlingonCelt is dumb for a few reasons:

1) It pretty much says to mods to never put in a post restriction because that person will be policy lynched. This game is meant for fun. If the restriction is true then you are judging Klingon Celt not for play but for a post restriction.

2) if Klingon Celt is faking and being scum then that would pretty much ruin me playing with them because I value letting people have fun over winning. Since in the games I have played with Klingon Celt they have common respect for the game I doubt this is it. Call it gut if you want but I doubt they are faking.

3) Setup spec which is what is going on stops scum hunting. For the love of God hunt scum. We have less than 24 hours and this is filler bullshit.

So therefore out of respect of letting a player play the fucking game I will not join on this.

I hear what you are saying here. I think we have different priorities and I am taking a more cynical stance. While I don't trust the post restriction and this is to me the safest lynch, I'll unvote for now because I think we should be able to find scum without lynching Klingon and fulfill both our priorities.

UNVOTE: Klingoncelt

[Expedience]

Either of Davsto / davesaz are my top suspects atm I think.

Davesaz for reasons I said earlier and gut as well, in recent posts he is asking really pointed almost loaded questions and it reminds me of what I saw about his scum meta.

Davsto I have played with a game before and he did not seem this disengaged. His posts feel a little off and he doesn't seem cheery enough.

[Expedience]

It's a playstyle thing. Some people are confrontational, others use a more oblique approach. The trick is reading how people respond.
Lots of game links available on my wiki page, feel free to compare.

Well, I read some of your ISO in this one in which you were town. And surprisingly meta actually seems to be vaguely useful for once and I see your point. Like, I probably would've called you scum for the same reasons if I was in that game but you flipped town.

Looking at you as scum here, you actually seem more aggressive which is the opposite of what I would expect.

I am still not convinced that this makes you town, becuase meta can be changed, and you kind of ignored the other aspect of my accusation: the shallow pseudo-scumhunting. I'm not sure how to pursue this further, but I am not scumreading you much any more. I will retract my vote for now.

UNVOTE: davesaz

At the moment I am seeing Ranger, The Silver Bard and pisskop as town.

Maybe we should just lynch gameplay or Davsto or something, most of the active people actually seem pretty town to me. Davsto is not doing much and he just voted for someone who I am pretty certain is town.

There are links to a town game and a scum game in this post, I'm on mobile so can't isolate them.

[Expedience]

VOTE: davesaz

This feels right. I always keep being overconfident and then backing down later but I just want to stick with this.

[Expedience]

Good point Klingon.

Expedience please explain why in the lower 205 it is not a policy lynch and in 225 it is a polcy lynch for the same reasons?

Help me understand why you did that?

Well I was thinking of it from others' perspective and it was a continuation from 224 so your confusion is understandable. Like, if I could get davesaz to admit that he thought they were both policy lynches then he would have to explain how gameplay is the better policy lynch. But when I wrote 225 I did not myself consider Klingon a policy lynch but I knew others were.

[Expedience]

Welp, 11.5 hours left. All three of the other 2-vote wagons suck in my opinion so I really don't want to move my vote. But a nolynch would suck more so ehhhhhh. I might not be online much closer to the deadline because of timezones but I will try.

[Expedience]

No way to know if I'll be around for deadline tomorrow.

scum pool right now is Ex,Gp,and maybe saint..

VOTE: expedience

Why do you think I'm scum?

Why vote me over gameplay and ARS when there isn't a wagon on me?

[Expedience]

There is reason for town to play like gameplay is the same way there is reason for scum to play like this: because they don't have the time or effort to read and analyse the game. I actually have a slight townread on gameplay upon reading his ISO and thinking a bit.

The fact that he reads just a few pages and gives his thoughts makes him seem town to me, if anything. I would expect scum in gameplay's position to either lurk harder or return with a huge wall, because if he was intentionally lurking he could continue doing so or he would have the capacity to post a lot more content if he wanted. 226 shows that he at least understands that what he is doing and wants to rectify this in whatever small way that he can (because he doesn't have the resources to post significantly more but can still put in a bit more effort).

[Expedience]

Hester Dave vote. The wagons are exp Dave or me. Me is stupid because I am trying to help get a lynch.

We have less than 7 hours.

Are you still happy with your gameplay vote then?

I do not endorse votes on either ARS or I. Everyone should definitely vote so we don't nolynch.

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: davesaz
VOTE: gameplay

This feels bad but I just don't want a nolynch. I'll be offline for now.

[Expedience]

So first things first, gameplay is probably town. If I had to guess, the scum are trying to force us into a second D1 with that No kill.

I don't really see this as likely, how would the scum benefit from "a second D1", wouldn't D2 with one less town member be inherently better? I guess that could happen at MyLo or something, but nobody has died yet. I think that they attacked someone.

I am unsure whether or not gameplay is town or not. I would like some kind of an explanation from him regarding the way he escaped the lynch. Perhaps it wasn't his doing? I would like to lynch him today though if he is some kind of lynchproof role, because he didn't claim it beforehand and I can see it being scumsided in this setup.

[Expedience]

So first things first, gameplay is probably town. If I had to guess, the scum are trying to force us into a second D1 with that No kill.

I agree. The reason why is:

Either gamplay is unlynchable. And unlynchable scum cannot exist I think.

or

He have two lifes or more. Scum could also have two lifes so in itself this don't point to him being town.

The way gameplay played day 1 though makes me believe he baited the lynch on himself to "confrim" himself as town. If scum got two lifes or more my guess is that they would have saved it for as long as possible and not intentionally get themselves lynched day one (gameplays playstyle day 1 was to me so anti-town that I think he did it intentionaly).

Well from the Lynchproof wiki page, it says that the ability is often one-shot (which would be the "two lives" scenario you mentioned). Since there are 2 scum against 11 town, I could see scum having this kind of extra power to survive another night and basically win even if they are lynched in LyLo.

[Expedience]

VOTE: Makoto
I'm very comfortable with this lynch right now.

Do Makoto's actions bother you more than gameplay's apparent lynch immunity?

[Expedience]

Gameplay's not here, until he explains stuff I'm staying on Makoto's ass.

That's understandable, but you didn't answer the question.

[Expedience]

I certainly disagree with Makoto's statement about gameplay being likely to be town because of his lynch immunity, but I'm not as confident as you seem to be that such a statement would come from scum.

Pressuring them while gameplay isn't here is fine.

VOTE: Makoto Nanaya

And this is a closed setup.

[Expedience]

Well this new deathless setup of Mafia certainly is interesting.

Do you think that the scum attempted to make a kill last night or decided not to?

[Expedience]

@Titus - Is there a wiki link for this game?

I just finished a game on Ika's site. Big mistake, they have a huge variety of crazy roles over there. Now I have a bunch of crazy possibilities dancing through my head: Judas, Saulus, unlynchable (but still Night-killable!,) saved by a judge, revived, ...



Oh, the post restriction was quite real. Sucked completely.

Yay, you can talk now?!

Judas is generally considered a bastard role.

Saulus is generally considered a bastard role.

Rules out those two at least.

[Expedience]

While I see potential signs of contribution here and there from The Silver Bard, wherever else I look, I keep seeing things that look suspicious, giving me an overall negative vibe.

Could you give some examples of the suspicious things are you noticing?

[Expedience]

Davesaz, do you think that gameplay's apparent lynchproofness is indicative of him being scum?

[Expedience]

Ahg.
I'm getting mislynched this game.
Probably this day phase.
You might as well get it over with and vote me to put me out of my misery.

You really think so? Lynching gameplay would probably be the best move here depending on his claim, you're probably town even though I strongly disagree with most of your reads. I don't want to lynch you at any rate.

[Expedience]

Pedit: in reply to Expedience's question...

I played a mafia-aligned lawyer role in a very large multiball game on another site. That was my only experience with an unlynchable mechanic, and it was to benefit scum.
Here, I don't think it is proof, but it should count for something as evidence in that direction.
I'd like to see Gameplay's explanation, if he has one.

Alright, that's about where I'm at.

The flaws in ARS's argument that I pointed out tell me that he's not cleared by the double vote. I would not expect them to be aligned together unless the 2nd vote ends day without actually causing a lynch. That's pure speculation and I'd much rather see more tangible evidence.

So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're trying to say is not that the double vote makes ARS scum, but just that it doesn't make him 100% completely confirmed town. Are you currently scumreading ARS?

[Expedience]

Well this new deathless setup of Mafia certainly is interesting.

Do you think that the scum attempted to make a kill last night or decided not to?

Almost certainly attempted a kill. No reason not to when there's 13 players alive. My best bet is a Doc protected their target, and given that gameplay appeared to be unlynchable, my guess is that they wanted to get rid of him via nightkill. Keep in mind that in some cases, the secondary wincons might give away hints to the role, so there's a good chance they know more about gameplay's role than us; they probably have some idea as to whether he's one-shot or just flat out unlynchable.

I just found the "deathless setup" part odd in your first post so I wanted clarification on that. Thanks for your response.

You're implying that you think gameplay is town when you say that you thought scum would want to nightkill him, why do you believe this?[/quote]

[Expedience]

given that gameplay appeared to be unlynchable, my guess is that they wanted to get rid of him via nightkill.

You're implying that you think gameplay is town when you say that you thought scum would want to nightkill him, why do you believe this?

[Expedience]

What I'm asking is:

Why do you think gameplay is town?

[Expedience]

Oh right, that was extremely ambiguous. Sorry.

[Expedience]

I'm a little surprised to see so many people making assumptions about who the missing NK target was. That kind of talk has potential to help scum by giving them insight on which players might get protection.

Stating townreads pretty much does the same thing. That was not what I meant to ask Davsto anyway, it was ambiguous.

[Expedience]

In reply to the question I was asked, I see both ARS and gameplay as weak scum reads, but the chance of them being scum together is very remote.

Any stronger scumreads?

[Expedience]

VOTE: Gameplay

I don't find hiplop scummy.

So you're null on hiplop? Why's this (if not just because you haven't seen anything worrying about him)?

[Expedience]

- gameplay is probably town. His play day one makes much more sense from a townie trying to confirm himself (as stupid as it is) by spending his lynchproof by baiting by playing anti-town than a scum wasting his lynchproof.

I'm sorry but this is simply not true. It's straight-up scummy to make town waste a whole day just because you wanna "confirm" yourself and don't wanna put any effort in playing. Not speaking of lowering your chances of winning when you potentially reach LyLo as "conf town".

But why would he play this way as scum? With a lynchproof. He should do everything in his power to stay out of trouble for as long as possible then. It could be gamewinning if he made it a couple of days without getting lynched off. Lurking as scum is a risk to take. But with lynchproof I cannot see why any scum would do it. And also the continued I'll post later posts seems like he just begs to get lynched.

I am not saying that it is protown to do it this way. But I am saying that I think it would make more sense for town to do it than for scum.

I mean why would lynchproof town lurk, then? Playing apathetically hurts either alignment. I guess you're saying that if he was scum he would've tried harder to escape his lynch because it hurts scum more for them to be lynched, which is true to a small extent but I don't really see it considering how he probably just didn't come online to post on the site a lot. I don't think he really had the capacity to put in much more effort regardless of his alignment, so I would say it's probably null..

The way that he tried to start giving his thoughts near to him being lynched and joined a wagon is a slight town tell to me because he seemed to notice that his inactivity was anti-town, but I still want a full explanation on how he escaped the lynch.

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: Makoto Nanaya

I think Makoto is town, I will work things out and place a vote soon.

[Expedience]

Nice to see you too, Fire. ._.

[Expedience]

Okay, basically you can read what he is saying by changing each number to a letter with 1 = a, 2 = b, 26 = z. There are tools online that can do this for you but I am not sure I am allowed to link to it.

Why do you think I'm scummy, Fire?

Can you explain how you survived the lynch yesterday?

[Expedience]

I'm not actually voting anyone.

Are you permanently unlynchable or just once?

[Expedience]

Okay, you can use this: http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/numbers.php

[Expedience]

We arent doing this. Fire, claim and/or die.

He said in code that he is unlynchable, but that his role PM doesn't necessarily say if the unlynchableness is one-shot or not.

He said that he tracked Klingoncelt last night but she went nowhere.

Do you believe his claim?

[Expedience]

Okay. Also there were some errors that Fire made that I didn't fix.

Spoiler: translations

5 -23-16-4-9-1-14-3 -12-15-15-11-19 -19-3-21-13-13-25

E -WPDIANC -LOOKS -SCUMMY

20-8-9-19 -18-5-19-20-18-9-3-20-9-15-14 -19-21-3-11-19

THIS -RESTRICTION -SUCKS

25-15-21 -8-5-1-18-4 13-5

YOU -HEARD ME

25-15-21 1-18-5 10-21-19-20 20-18-25-9-14-7 20-15 12-15-15-11 12-9-11-5 25-15-21 1-18-5 19-3-21-13-8-21-14-20-9-14-7

9 18-5-1-4 4-1-25 15-14-5 1-14-4 25-15-21 22-15-20-9-14-7 16-5-15-16-12-5 6-15-18 2-1-4 18-5-1-19-15-14-19 20-15 12-15-15-11 12-9-11-5 25-15-21 1-18-5 8-21-20-14-9-14-7

YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO LOOK LIKE YOU ARE SCUMHUNTING

I READ DAY ONE AND YOU VOTING PEOPLE FOR BAD REASONS TO LOOK LIKE YOU ARE HUTNING

Can you explain how you survived the lynch yesterday?

9 19-21-18-22-9-22-5-4 2-5-3-1-21-19-5 20-8-1-20-19 16-1-18-20 15-6 13-25 18-15-12-5 21-14-12-25-14-3-8-1-2-12-5

25-15-21-18 22-15-20-5 9-19 23-1-19-20-5-4 23-8-5-18-5 9-20 9-19

I SURVIVED BECAUSE THATS PART OF MY ROLE UNLYNCHABLE

YOUR VOTE IS WASTED WHERE IT IS

13-25 18-15-12-5 16-13 9-19 21-14-19-16-5-3-9-6-9-3 15-14 20-8-5 16-1-18-20 1-2-15-21-20 21-14-12-25-14-3-8-1-2-12-5 20-8-15-21-7-8 25-15-21 3-1-14 2-5 19-1-6-5 20-15 1-19-19-21-13-5 9 3-1-14 20 2-5 11-9-12-12-5-4 2-25 25-15-21 13-15-18-20-1-12
1-12-19-15 9 1-13 20-18-1-3-11-5-18 1-14-4 7-15-20 14-15 18-5-19-21-12-20-19 12-1-19-20 14-9-7-8-20 6-15-18 19-5-1-18-3-8-9-14-7 11-12-9-14-7-15-14-3-5-12-20

MY ROLE PM IS UNSPECIFIC ON THE PART ABOUT UNLYNCHABLE THOUGH YOU CAN BE SAFE TO ASSUME I CAN T BE KILLED BY YOU MORTAL
ALSO I AM TRACKER AND GOT NO RESULTS LAST NIGHT FOR SEARCHING KLINGONCELT

20-8-9-19 9-19 8-5-12-12 6-15-18 1-14-25-15-14-5 20-18-25-9-14-7 20-15 18-5-1-4 13-25 13-5-19-19-1-7-5-19

THIS IS HELL FOR ANYONE TRYING TO READ MY MESSAGES

[Expedience]

Haven't seen much of Kling so far but the thing I don't like is that she isn't even remotely trying to overcome it on way or another.

I will take this as a crumb of sorts. Fire is town probably unless he was a scum tracker (which would suck why wouldn't you give a rolecop instead?), because he wouldn't have enough time to read everything about Klingon being suspected before posting (which he did really quickly after he replaced in).

Fire, are you immune to just lynches or dying altogether or is it vague?

[Expedience]

Haven't seen much of Kling so far but the thing I don't like is that she isn't even remotely trying to overcome it on way or another.

I will take this as a crumb of sorts. Fire is town probably unless he was a scum tracker (which would suck why wouldn't you give a rolecop instead?), because he wouldn't have enough time to read everything about Klingon being suspected before posting (which he did really quickly after he replaced in).

Actually wouldn't a scum tracker visit a townread anyway, nevermind.

[Expedience]

So looking at the current wagons:

Makoto Nanaya

(2): A Royal Saint, The_Jester

Firebringer

(3): A Royal Saint, Scorpious, davesaz

Ranger

(1): pisskop

A Royal Saint

(1): Ranger

hiplop

(1): Klingoncelt

Expedience

(1): Firebringer

Not Voting

(5): Makoto Nanaya, The Silver Bard, Expedience, Davsto, hiplop

I think Makoto, Firebringer, Ranger, ARS and me are all town. Honestly there are a lot of TvT arguments I see here.
I am null on hiplop.

VOTE: Davsto

[Expedience]

I'm confident that Fire is town now.

Here's why I'm scumreading Davsto:

Davsto is not really doing anything and he only responds more when I poke him. I played a game with him before and he was more helpful as town, he generated discussion.

That being said,
VOTE: A Royal Saint.
While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger.

Seriously though, while I went all "whelp" on this earlier, this is weak as fuck. Changing your vote to a weaker scumread because they had one more vote on them? Rather than, I don't know, actually pushing the one you're more certain of?

This is a bad and reachy reason for FoS'ing someone, considering how his rhetorical question is already answered by Ranger saying that she is voting ARS because the wagon is larger.

VOTE: Ranger

My vote on that dude I showed suspicion of. Might as well park it on someone I have actual feelings towards overnight.

An afterthought so he doesn't get screwed over for FoS'ing someone but not voting for them. And considering how he just accused someone for changing their vote onto a weaker scumread it is also hypocritical.

With a look at his ISO, I can get on board with a gameplay vote.

VOTE: gameplay506

Not showing any sort of evaluation, he will just jump onto the largest wagon after checking to make sure they are good lynchbait.

Well this new deathless setup of Mafia certainly is interesting.

Do you think that the scum attempted to make a kill last night or decided not to?

Almost certainly attempted a kill. No reason not to when there's 13 players alive. My best bet is a Doc protected their target, and given that gameplay appeared to be unlynchable, my guess is that they wanted to get rid of him via nightkill. Keep in mind that in some cases, the secondary wincons might give away hints to the role, so there's a good chance they know more about gameplay's role than us; they probably have some idea as to whether he's one-shot or just flat out unlynchable.

The assumption that gameplay is town before he is even here to explain the situation really bothers me, and is possibly a scumslip. More so now considering how Fire's claim seems valid.

And now look at this:

With a look at his ISO, I can get on board with a gameplay vote.

VOTE: gameplay506

The only real thing that happened between this statement and him assuming gameplay was town was gameplay's escape. And this was very far from confirming him as town, from a town perspective at least. Most people interpreted it as making him look more like scum.

[Expedience]

Also Fire, if you think I'm "fake scumhunting" then you should vote Davsto instead because he is objectively worse.

[Expedience]

I can try to sort them in order if you want but it won't be that informative.

Town

Expedience
The Silver Bard
A Royal Saint
pisskop
Firebringer (replaces gameplay506)
Klingoncelt
Ranger
The_Jester
Makoto Nanaya
Scorpious
hiplop
davesaz
Davsto

Scum

Makoto / Scorpious would be a nullish kind of area below which slight townreads become slight scumreads.

I actually have a lot of townreads, but I think that's good because there are only 2 scum in this setup.

[Expedience]

Anyway, I know Davsto and he's town so I'm not lynching him.

Could you explain why, are you implying that it is just meta or is it more than that?

@Expedience why did you exactly unvote Makoto?

It was a temporary vote for now until more interesting stuff happened, e.g. I was going to vote gameplay if the explanation was bad. And I still hadn't sorted a lot of people either. It was kind of like a d2 RVS, because voting on that wagon was better than not voting at all. I had a slight townread on Makoto when I first voted and nothing really made me question that after a bit longer so I unvoted. The pressure of a shorter day also influenced my decision to unvote.

[Expedience]

People who are wondering why gameplay would let a wagon form on him when he's lynchproof seem to have forgotten that a certain mechanic exists in this game.

Expedience's meta reads are crap, considering this game I was "so engaged" in contained me making at least two "I don't have the effort, I'll get around to this later" posts. Also, I didn't have tonsillitis whilst playing that game.

Unsure if Expedience is just not the best at using meta or is purposefully meta-reading me poorly to try and get a cheap push on me.

VOTE: Expedience

Let's look at my ""meta read"" again:

Here's why I'm scumreading Davsto:

Davsto is not really doing anything and he only responds more when I poke him. I played a game with him before and he was more helpful as town, he generated discussion.

That being said,
VOTE: A Royal Saint.
While my scumread's weaker, this wagon's larger.

Seriously though, while I went all "whelp" on this earlier, this is weak as fuck. Changing your vote to a weaker scumread because they had one more vote on them? Rather than, I don't know, actually pushing the one you're more certain of?

This is a bad and reachy reason for FoS'ing someone, considering how his rhetorical question is already answered by Ranger saying that she is voting ARS because the wagon is larger.

VOTE: Ranger

My vote on that dude I showed suspicion of. Might as well park it on someone I have actual feelings towards overnight.

An afterthought so he doesn't get screwed over for FoS'ing someone but not voting for them. And considering how he just accused someone for changing their vote onto a weaker scumread it is also hypocritical.

With a look at his ISO, I can get on board with a gameplay vote.

VOTE: gameplay506

Not showing any sort of evaluation, he will just jump onto the largest wagon after checking to make sure they are good lynchbait.

Well this new deathless setup of Mafia certainly is interesting.

Do you think that the scum attempted to make a kill last night or decided not to?

Almost certainly attempted a kill. No reason not to when there's 13 players alive. My best bet is a Doc protected their target, and given that gameplay appeared to be unlynchable, my guess is that they wanted to get rid of him via nightkill. Keep in mind that in some cases, the secondary wincons might give away hints to the role, so there's a good chance they know more about gameplay's role than us; they probably have some idea as to whether he's one-shot or just flat out unlynchable.

The assumption that gameplay is town before he is even here to explain the situation really bothers me, and is possibly a scumslip. More so now considering how Fire's claim seems valid.

And now look at this:

With a look at his ISO, I can get on board with a gameplay vote.

VOTE: gameplay506

The only real thing that happened between this statement and him assuming gameplay was town was gameplay's escape. And this was very far from confirming him as town, from a town perspective at least. Most people interpreted it as making him look more like scum.

There is a single sentence of meta in that entire quote:

I played a game with him before and he was more helpful as town, he generated discussion.

I agree with you in regards to meta, it's not accurate because people's playstyles change due to things not related to alignment (for example tonsillitis, as you mentioned). That's precisely why that was a very small part of my case against you.

☑ Misrepresentation
☑ Avoidance
☑ OMGUS
☑ Defensiveness

Yeah, we need more votes here.

[Expedience]

Mkay.
And yeah, it's meta-based. He's not as active as I'd like him to be but I don't see him a scum.

Davsto, why doesn't this meta townread bother you in that case? Especially considering how you claim that real life circumstances are making you act in a way that makes meta reads less valid.

[Expedience]

Expedience - The pushes seem contrived. Says my post restriction is fake. Votes for me, tries to get others to. Scum.

What pushes (other than on you)? I will say that I no longer consider your post restriction fake and I consider you town, I accept that my pushing you for supposedly having a fake post restriction was poor.

Hiplop - Declares Expedience to be Town. Says my post restriction is fake. Rest of his posts are short & crappy.
Way Scum.

ARS and TSB also think I'm town, why does hiplop townreading me in particular bother you?

[Expedience]

Because, shock horror, I didn't realise that post existed?

Vague town meta read is vague and crap.

So do you have any response to the rest of my case against you in 455 that has nothing to do with meta?

[Expedience]

I mean that entire post is projection. You just quote something I did and find a reason I'd do it as scum.

But I thought it was all meta. Explain how my reasoning in 455 is flawed, reachy, wrong, etc.

Also, uh, what else could a case be than quoting someone and giving reasons why they'd do it as scum. I mean, it sounds manipulative because of how you've phrased it but that is pretty much what the game is about.

[Expedience]

But stuff like when I put the vote on Ranger before I went to bed, you immediately jump to paint it as the potential scum motivation rather than me, you know, wanting to vote Ranger.

My interpretation makes more sense considering how you didn't vote Ranger in the first place after showing suspicion towards her. It shows more of a mind towards your appearances than finding scum: if you really thought Ranger was suspicious why not vote her at the first opportunity because if you find someone scummy then you should pressure them.

Sure, it's not a strong reason on its own because a town member can easily do things like that, but it still leans towards you being scum more than it leans towards you being town.

I never said it was all meta, don't misrepresent me, I just said your meta case on me was a flat-out lie.

You completely ignored almost the entirety of the case then, only responding to the slight amount of meta I used. My "meta case" was a single sentence saying that you were acting uncharacteristically. You then gave reasons for why you were acting uncharacteristically, sure, fine, I understand and won't read you using meta if you have real life stuff going on. The meta case is not relevant to your alignment, we have established that.

It was not a flat-out lie in any case, I maintain that you were more engaged in the other game than this one. I don't see how something that subjective could even be a lie.

[Expedience]

1) Would you go up in a 1v1 against the other person?

Not sure what this means? I'm arguing with him already and he's already

OMGUS'ed

counter-accused

me.

2) In your world, who is the partner?

Not sure. Probably one of the others I haven't yet sorted (Scorpious / hiplop / davesaz).

[Expedience]

I should probably include this which I forgot to mention earlier:

Can I ask who said that the post restriction is Kling's secret wincon? That seems like a logical leap.

I understand the rule against claiming / hinting post restrictions, so I won't go too far into this. I will just say that, unless Davsto has both a post restriction and an unrelated secondary wincon (which I don't know whether he does or not and he shouldn't claim), I consider it more likely that Davsto made this comment with scum knowledge of every secondary wincon than just with the town knowledge of his own.

[Expedience]

Scorpious, you should vote either me or Davsto. We have 19 hours.

[Expedience]

Why is hiplop not an option? They are also a top wagon?

I'm fine with hiplop too. But I thought this was what you meant by the 1v1 thing.

He should really just move his vote off Fire though.

[Expedience]

scum pool right now is Ex,Gp,and maybe saint..

VOTE: expedience

But I have gut town on Ex

What changed between these quotes?

[Expedience]

I should probably include this which I forgot to mention earlier:

Can I ask who said that the post restriction is Kling's secret wincon? That seems like a logical leap.

I understand the rule against claiming / hinting post restrictions, so I won't go too far into this. I will just say that, unless Davsto has both a post restriction and an unrelated secondary wincon (which I don't know whether he does or not and he shouldn't claim), I consider it more likely that Davsto made this comment with scum knowledge of every secondary wincon than just with the town knowledge of his own.

I'd argue that you instantly assuming that it was Kling's secondary wincon is more likely to come from scum with knowledge of the wincons, since I imagine most players instead assuming that it is just, you know, part of the role.

I didn't realize that post restrictions were something that were "part of the role". The only game I read a game a while ago which had post restrictions had almost everyone with one and it seemed like an aspect of the game rather than just a thing which roles could have sometimes. I agree that you're right (post restrictions are probably just part of the role because if they are secondary wincons then following them is essentially hinting them), but in this case if my assumption is wrong it is more likely to come from town.

[Expedience]

I havent voted fire! I assume you meant klingon, right?

I meant that Scorpious should move his vote off Fire.

[Expedience]

im fine with expedience wagon, actually. I've read davsto's thoughts and find myself agreeing?

But you said in post 124, "Expedience is town."

This and what Scorpious did kind of bothers me because it could be scum unsure which side to pick, then choosing the one that makes them look best despite inconsistencies with their previous stances. Should probably look to Scorpious / hiplop later.

[Expedience]

Expedience - The pushes seem contrived. Says my post restriction is fake. Votes for me, tries to get others to. Scum.

What pushes (other than on you)? I will say that I no longer consider your post restriction fake and I consider you town, I accept that my pushing you for supposedly having a fake post restriction was poor.

Hiplop - Declares Expedience to be Town. Says my post restriction is fake. Rest of his posts are short & crappy.
Way Scum.

ARS and TSB also think I'm town, why does hiplop townreading me in particular bother you?

Well, there was the weird arguing over the value of RVS with Silver Bard, the Davesaz pressure... it seems too scripted. Then the push over my allegedly fake restriction, then back to Davesaz, and on to Gameplay.

If it makes you feel any better, I made the argument with Bard deliberately melodramatic to move the game forward because I saw what he was intending to do with 14. I wasn't scumreading him more than very slightly at any point.

And I was genuinely distrusting and am still distrusting to a lesser extent davesaz. I also think the way I unvoted and moved off him might have looked a bit awkward, this was probably because of how shocked I was that most of my suspicion of him was justified by an easily observable playstyle trait.

I was wrong about your post restriction being faked, the best explanation I can give for this is my incorrect understanding of how post restrictions were usually used in games. I falsely believed that your post restriction was your secondary wincon and hence thought that you were lying about it because you weren't allowed to claim secondary wincons.

I never really wanted a gameplay lynch anyway, it was just because of deadlines.

Hiplop's read bothers me because I'm sure he's Scum.

It isn't a good strategy to try and link people together like that (e.g. "hiplop is scum because he is townreading my scumread" or "expedience is scum because hiplop is townreading him", not sure which one you are meaning here?) because you're wrong on me being scum and it's going to be difficult to entangle soon enough.

[Expedience]

UNVOTE: Davsto
VOTE: hiplop

Okay, this is honestly fine by me too. I will not be here much nearer to the deadline most likely and it looks like more support for hiplop than Davsto so I am content to compromise.

[Expedience]

9-19 14-15 15-14-5 5-12-19-5 19-5-5-9-14-7 8-15-23 5-24-16-5-4-9-1-14-3-5 9-19 19-3-21-13-13-25

25-5-1-8 9 4-15-14 20 6-9-14-4 8-9-16-12-15-16 20-15-23-14 2-21-20 9 3-1-14 19-5-5 8-9-13 2-5-9-14-7 13-9-19-12-25-14-3-8 2-1-9-20

I'd rather vote Davsto, but since I am only one of 2 people currently voting him with 9 hours until the deadline it's not worth stubbornly parking my vote there. In particular, I agree with ARS that 566 was terrible.

I also doubt you were seriously considering hiplop lynchbait until after I voted him.

[Expedience]

Also I noticed that hiplop was buddying (or at least copying the stances I took, not entirely sure what constitutes "buddying") me pretty hard on d1 and now he's saying that he's fine with lynching me:

VOTE: The Jester

No Cults,

Jesters

or Lynchers

^ Good eye

Even in RVS. ._.

I think philosohper dave/ranger are both town, btw.

-snipped case against davesaz-

maybe I was wrong about philosophidave :/

Expedience is town.

Davesaz is questionable. I don't think he should die today, though.

He changes his stance after I accuse davesaz, he also calls me town.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

Scum know

secret

wincons.

So why is it supposedly this obvious if it's "secret"?

I think Klingon just chose a fake one that wasn't on the list at the start of the game, and one that would "confirm" her as town to everyone else.

Also she is pushing a lurker and apparently has no other scumreads.

Worst case scenario: we mislynch what is effectively a vote.

VOTE: klingon

deadline coming, best lynch available i think.

good lynch b/c good chance its FAKE and shes scum

and if not all we lose is a useless post restriction, anyway.

He votes Klingon after I do so. 223 is just repeating what I said in 156.

im fine with expedience wagon, actually. I've read davsto's thoughts and find myself agreeing?

And now he completely flips his opinion on me.

Actually wow, hiplop is way scummier than I thought previously.

[Expedience]

I'd also just like to add that having Scorpious shot by a potential vigilante would be appealing to me at the moment because he's acting suspicious to me and I can't tell if it's alignment indicative. Additionally, it would confirm if we have a vigilante (of whatever strange variety).

[Expedience]

23-5 19-5-18-9-15-21-19-12-25 8-1-22-5 5-9-7-8-20 8-15-21-18-19 23-5 13-9-7-8-20 14-15-20 7-5-20 1 12-25-14-3-8

ARS is a doublevoter and she will hopefully be here near to the deadline. So all we need is ARS and one more person.

[Expedience]

This was a cool setup, although the anti-townness of the wincons didn't really balance out the town's power.

I thought that TSB played really well, you really fooled me. I probably shouldn't have just dismissed ARS vs TSB as TvT noise tbh. When you claimed doctor d2 I was questioning pisskop's claim over yours. So yeah I kind of messed up by telling scum pisskop's role, sorry that you weren't able to kill anyone pisskop...

Scum probably would've had a lot better chance if town didn't lynch an immune on d1 and didn't attack me n1 (meaning there could be 3 town dead on d2 instead of 0).