Newbie Game #489 - Murder in Smallburg (Game Over!)

[Franzie]

Checking in. What's up, everyone? Need some time to look over the thread, but I'll be sure to have opinions/votes up in the next hour or two.

[Franzie]

First and foremost,

Unvote

my predecessor's vote. I don't want to be constrained by someone else's decisions and judgments.

My thoughts so far (and feel free to contradict if you disagree, except on your own, obviously )

mcpaltp

- Being very cautious throughout the entire thread. A good trait to have, and generally seems very wary of what's going on.

N-N

- Always trying to help is a sign of a good elder player...but I'm wary of this as a minor act of scumminess because there hasn't been much said about his tactics, just about his helpfulness (which is definitely appreciated, don't get me wrong). So I'm wary, but no FoS.

coxy52k

- Constantly vote-changing is a weird sign. Yes, you should always point your vote to whoever seems most scummy, but one shouldn't let one's opinion change so easily, I think.

Boggzie

- Sudden tag-teaming with N-N against the newbies in post 45 seemed scummy to me. Otherwise mostly quiet, and I'm very concerned about his motives.

desolator

- Never watched Princess Bride? SCUM! heh, kidding. But besides a few game-prods, I can't really get a feel here.

sk407

- Same as desolator, I'm not too sure. Seems like his comments are mostly along the lines of "I'm kinda new, but not really". Only real scummy tickle I get is the same as N-N, there isn't much content to his posts. Trying not to reveal something? Who knows.

---

Based on this, I think a

Vote:Boggzie

is in order.

[Franzie]

N-N - Always trying to help is a sign of a good elder player...but I'm wary of this as a minor act of scumminess because there hasn't been much said about his tactics, just about his helpfulness (which is definitely appreciated, don't get me wrong). So I'm wary, but no FoS.

Why am I scummy because nobody else has bothered to analyze my "tactics?"*

Also, as a general observation, I would say that caution is a generally scummy trait. There's something to be said for the type of caution that keeps lynches off page 2, but the type of caution that leads to a small number of posts with little content indicates an unwillingness to be connected to anything or with anybody. Therefore, Franzie's point in favor of MCP is negated as well as Boggzie's defense (though I would probably say that Boggzie's opinion is very biased and that he has been playing fast-and-loose)

@Boggzie: Where is your perception of distancing coming from? I find it very difficult not to take your response as pure OMGUS.


* I would oppose the use of "tactics" here. Townies make observations, scum use tactics.

*sigh* Good points, all. Bad choice of words on my point. And I don't know what it is, but I see mcpaltp's caution as simply not wanting to lynch town (which is a huge disadvantage in games this small), but Boggzie's caution as...worrying. Boggzie, as you mentioned, you haven't voted much this game. Is it a stretch to say that you

could

be waiting for us to pick a townie that seems a little off for you to jump on the bandwagon? Admittedly, I did omit specific evidence in my post. But I went through the thread several times before I posted, and I just posted what I thought at the time. Do keep in mind that now that I'll be a part of the discussion, our responses to each other (applying this to all players) mean more to me than the discussions that my predecessor was a part of. So based on what I knew at the time, I still maintain that Boggzie is the most suspicious player (getting rid of the word scummy...I don't want to sound accusatory, I just want to spark discussion).

To your question, N-N, it just seems like most of your posts are jargon-related or etiquette-related, and not really nitty-gritty about the current game, that's why I said what I did.

[Franzie]

Just testing an idea, sorry for one-post derailment.

Original Roll String: 1d6

1 6-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

EWP: Interesting...It gives a different value every time when you preview it. So it's impossible to use at the beginning of the game accurately without double posting.

[Franzie]

OK, I suppose I can safely recall by bogus vote now.

unvote

Welcome franzie, I never said I didn't watch princess bride(I think), its just that I couldn't find it.

I agree with a few points yet some I have no idea were they came from. I shall post more of the subject just mentioned after I reread the posts and get sleep.

Why did you feel like it was neccessary to wait until now to "safely recall [your] bogus vote"?

Let me point out that I believe desolator's vote was for coxy (see post 53), and not for zazq/me, so I too would like to know why my entry affects that.

[Franzie]

Interesting theory, Boggz, my boy. First, yes, I "omitted" evidence, but I still feel that post in question gives me a little funny feeling about you. I feel like you're trying to steer votes around without actually having to place votes (which is a theory that gets thrown out at the end of your post by the very audacious vote, I like your style). But vote-steering (which I think you and N-N are slightly guilty of) seems to be a questionable tactic to me. Have other people vote - bandwagon if you will - to certain townies that you bring up. Perhaps to join the bandwagon without it seeming like you started it? This is pure speculation at this point, don't take this as an attack, anyone can really use this tactic.

Also, I don't know why Nabakov is "defending" me...Going back on the thread, I do see you calling him out on it, and him not responding, so I guess I was dense to just call it out. I suppose you're seeing another side to my own observations that I missed.

I don't think you're playing "fast and loose", you're just playing slowly. With the vote at the end of your post, I think you're playing slowly and surely. Yes, you're being cautious...but caution is a sign of good as much as it's a sign of evil. I'll have to look at everything again. You bring up good points, while defending the points against you fairly well.

Unvote

I do appreciate being defended... but I agree it looks suspicious.

Also, I think I'd be excited if the discussion went beyond the three of us

And I feel the game's moving slowly. Where are our other players? And why not post several times per day?
EWP: heh...I complain that it's moving slowly and I remove my vote, a tactic that may slow it down more. Interesting.

[Franzie]

*The type of caution at issue here is the one that would allow a player to blend in a fly under the radar (like MCP, desolator, and sk are exhibiting).

Agreed. It's easy to find fault in the things a select few people are saying when those select few are the only ones saying anything.

[Franzie]

I may sound noobish with that comment but if they are not pro-town (by which i mean contributing to the conversation) then what exactly are they good for? Can someone care to explain!

There's an

FoS

on coxy. Pro-Town is more than just contributing. Scum contribute all the time. Maybe you meant to say something like Pro-game or something, where the contributing players are, well, the only ones contributing. I don't like the wording here.

Lurking players do nothing for the game, and if they're truly lurking and not just IA, I'd be suspicious that they're scum. I'm not saying that people who don't post are scum...but I think it's good to be a little wary of them. In fact, since I entered, sk407 is the only one who hasn't posted. So, assuming not IA, I

FoS sk407

as well. I don't want to revote yet. Voting as I came in was a fairly hostile action, and I want to be more sure next time I vote.

[Franzie]

Hay Guyz, who are teh scumz?!

<Rereading shortly...>

You are. OH SNAP!

Welcome.

[Franzie]

Slow going = possible deadline, which tends to favor scum over town. There's already been a threat of a deadline this game, we collectively need to post more often.

[Franzie]

NN: Can you restate your case on coxy? Not point me to another post where you did that, but have a new post just saying why you think he's scummy.

[Franzie]

Thanks for the recap. I agree that these actions are very suspicious, also that they don't (currently) merit a lynch. I'm willing to give him a little bit longer to cast of the shackles of new-player-dom. So, I'll keep my

FoS

pointed at coxy.

However, as you pointed out, Boggz was quick to defend him. I want to

vote:Boggzie

again.

Also,

FoS NabakovNabakov

.

[Franzie]

Wow, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. You two have to be the two worst scum buddies ever.

So I get a vote for defending somone, if

asking a question

is defending/scummy, because supposedly he's my partner, but NN's lead this entire game by the nose and he gets an FoS? But coxy gets an FoS too?

Franzie - you're all over the place. You want to cast allegations everywhere. That's a highly scummy trait. Then, to re-vote me, after unvoting, seemingly because you agreed it was a bad choice, is a terrible play. No new evidence has been presented on me, yet I get your vote?

unvote

FoS: Franzie & NabakovNabakov

You mention your FoS on him (NN) so offhandedly that it seems like; "oh, just so they don't think we're working together." I suspect you both, but right now I'm leaning more toward FRanzie because he simply hasn't presented any new evidence anywhere, he just wants to cast doubt.

Heh. First, I didn't say that voting you was a bad choice, I just said that you had defended the points against you, but N-N brought up a few more that added onto what I had said before.

And I don't want to cast allegations everywhere, I just want to be (hopefully rightly) suspicious of everyone who have done suspicious things. Anyone could be scum, so there's nothing wrong with having 3 FoS's out. You bring up the reason that I FoS'd NN: He

is

leading the game around by the nose. I had hoped it was obvious. I'm not ready to vote for him yet. A lot of what he says is clouded by helpful hints, but it could be town being clouded or scum being clouded.

Other reason I replaced my vote on you was to (hopefully) get the game speeding up a little bit. If the votes start moving around a little bit more, maybe it'll spark some more discussion. Obviously I didn't get the desired result, because as soon as I did it, you unvoted. Which, I must say, confuses me. Why do you say Nab is very scummy and then promptly unvote him? That doesn't make much sense to me...

But anyway, long story short (too late). I'm just leaning toward Boggz being scum, with either Nab or coxy being his buddy. My two cents so far.

My, isn't this getting exciting?

[Franzie]

Also, we haven't heard from Desolator since Monday, or mcpaltp since Tuesday. May we have a

mod:prod

please?

[Franzie]

I will look at prods this evening if they haven't posted.

Thank you!

[Franzie]

Mr. Flay ! You gormenghastian mod ruined my tasteless joke! How dare you.

I just scoured wikipedia and came up with nothing. What does that word mean?

Also, to pre-emptively use another Princess Bride line; That word - you keep saying it, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Franzie]

I may have misspelt it: Gormenghast. Gormenghastian: of or belonging to Gormenghast. IIRC, Flay was a character from that series of books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormenghast is the wiki on it, it was a great series of books that was made into a television series with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers, IIRC.

Hmm. I did find that, but as you can see that page is pretty sparse. I didn't think it was what you were referring to. Thanks for explaining, though. Despite me currently being at school, that's probably the only thing I'm going to learn today.

[Franzie]

I will not just write it off as a town plot, which is what you seem to be espousing.

Yeah, pretty much. I can see the word "plot" coming from him. And town shouldn't have a plot. Scummy? I'm gonna look back at everything the player he replaced said, see if there's any tells there. I should have it tomorrow sometime, I'll let everyone know.

*sigh* I thought I was so sure about everything this morning and then everything goes crazy. Although that does make the game interesting.

[Franzie]

Yeah, I have to similarly apologize to Boggz, but I think that not only has Flameaxe been fairly scummy, but more importantly (I think) is that he's completely unwilling to contribute to the discussion. Lurking/Inactivity is one thing, but actively subverting the entire thread to be a big flamewar (no puns intended against his name) is counter-productive.

Unvote
Vote:Flameaxe

[Franzie]

Right now, I propose that Town players remove votes from Flameaxe until we have a chance to discuss further. If, after discussion, the majority of us can come to an agreement, he can be lynched, but there's no reason to leave him sitting at L -1.

And if all three of us leave our votes on? Does that make us all scum? You're just being silly with that request.

Anyway, what I meant to say earlier was that if someone is counter-productive and refuses to take part in the discussion, then they're hindering our search for the scum and are being just as scummy as the actual bad guys. If Flameaxe is town, he's doing a pretty poor job of showing it. Now, I understand that different people have different playing styles, sure. But I don't think he's willing - or maybe even able - to help us in our search for the Mafia. My vote stays.

[Franzie]

It wasn't so much a ploy to identify the scum as it was a ploy to spook them off the wagon. Either way, you've gone and ruined now.

It was blatantly obvious, I saw it as soon as I read your post. Here's the only real outcome that could have come of that: Someone wouldn't have seen through what you were saying, and think that anyone who unvoted was actually town...even though the only people who benefit from such a belief are the scum, so they would be the ones unvoting.

Side note, everyone, my rate of posting is probably gonna go down a little bit, because Guitar Hero 3 is eating my life. But I'll stay active.

[Franzie]

Still waiting for Franzie to respond to my last post.

What, this one?

Ahem....read more? I've done plenty in my last post. I find scum differently than you, and I believe it worked.

Also, If you could...prove a) How I am currently being counter-productive? b) How that makes me scum no matter what, without a doubt in your mind.

Tell you what. I'll be a good sport about it and give you a fighting chance. I'll answer your questions if you can tell us - in a mature way - what you found out doing what you did. I'm pretty sure you won't have an answer, but I figure you can have a chance. Not that you've done anything to deserve it so far...

[Franzie]

Unvote

I'll post more later. Probably.

[Franzie]

Tell you what. I'll be a good sport about it and give you a fighting chance. I'll answer your questions if you can tell us - in a mature way - what you found out doing what you did. I'm pretty sure you won't have an answer, but I figure you can have a chance. Not that you've done anything to deserve it so far...

I usually don't like answering for other people, but this is ridiculous.

Yeah...In my opinion, he hadn't provided anything to the discussion thus far. Then he responded to that really well, I think. So, I'm back to three suspects and no leads, hence the lack of vote.

In all seriousness, I was actually most suspicous of Boggzie before Flameaxe distracted me with the whole no-justification thing. I havn't liked the way he responded to Flameaxe after the intial discussion I had with him died down, and I liked the scum-baiting gambit Flameaxe pulled.

Also, this.

[Franzie]

Are you confessing, Boggz? That would make this much easier.

Also, you might be mistaking confusion for caution. I have 3 suspects, and since there can't be 3 scum, I'm holding off my vote for a little while.

[Franzie]

Another good bet would be Franzie, he's done his best to attack the progenetor of the case (Flameaxe) and has kept up a token FOS level of suspicion on you but has been purposely avoiding making direct comment.

If you remember...I put my vote on him as soon as I came in, and I kept it on him until Flameaxe acted scummier. I don't want to place my vote again until I get a chance to read all the way back through the thread, I need to reanalyze the current events based on past events. Maybe I should take notes or something. I'll post what I find. But, if you were wondering, I am leaning towards re-voting him.

Note to self: FoS Nab, Boggz, Flame

[Franzie]

# Franzie:
has been suspicious of boggzie since he joined the game, but halfway jumped to flameaxe.

Tell you what. I'll be a good sport about it and give you a fighting chance. I'll answer your questions if you can tell us - in a mature way - what you found out doing what you did. I'm pretty sure you won't have an answer, but I figure you can have a chance. Not that you've done anything to deserve it so far...

I usually don't like answering for other people, but this is ridiculous.

Yeah...In my opinion, he hadn't provided anything to the discussion thus far. Then he responded to that really well, I think. So, I'm back to three suspects and no leads, hence the lack of vote.

this also contradicts I think, or did I misread it?

I jumped to Flameaxe because he came into the thread will all guns blazing, but I think you missed post 163, where Flameaxe defended himself (I think fairly well):

Reaction testing votes are a very common thing to do in the game of mafia, people. When I did what I did the wagon on me shot up very rapidly, some doing it in a very scummy way. I got two pretty scummy reactions from it, some of those reactions haven't stopped. (See: Boggzie)

I'm not really sure where this tunnel vision idea is coming from, to be quite honest. I've offered plenty of info on this game also. I'm very happy with my vote right now, and I will be 100% happy with it as long as you are stretching.

That's why I took my vote off of him, I think that was a good post and a change of pace from the snide posts he had entirely done up until that point. I was no longer totally convinced of his scumminess.

BTW, welcome to the game, to both Martini and Selande.

[Franzie]

Welp, I'm claiming Me and NabNab (sorry dude!) as scum, and I'm mason with you, and n0 I investigated Boggzie, and he's sk. Sorry, I shoulda said something sooner.

ps I also raise zombies from the dead as members of a cult.

ps i'm also investigation immune, so I come up town.

Wait! You two can't be scum because I am! So there's three of us? That's weird. The town doesn't stand a chance.

[Franzie]

Sorry I haven't been posting as much as before...I've had a really busy couple of days. I'm trying to catch up right now (wow, you guys are posting fast. Way to keep it interesting!). Now, just looking at everything, there's been a lot of evidence presented against mcpaltp recently, and I have to say, I'm still not convinced that he's scum. Although the recent avatar change has really thrown me off. My previous suspects before this round of "evidence" were Nab-Nab, Boggzie (now wolfbullet), and Flameaxe. I think I'm going to drop Flame off of that list, because yes, he came in with a bang, but he's been pretty quiet since then. Wolfbullet, however, came in and immediately started attacking with circumstantial evidence. Wolfy is now at the top of my list, but I'm not ready to bring him to L-1 yet. I, too, want to see what mcpaltp has to say. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but I don't think so.

I should be able to give the thread a good once-over tonight, so I'll probably post a vote on someone then. Seems like a good time to do so.

[Franzie]

All of these replacemnts are getting me down Sad .

Yes, this. Even though I'm one, I'm still getting a bit confused.

Thank you for confirming some of the details about wolfbullet. Do or die?

vote: Wolfbullet

Also...most people are referring to "mcpaltp" as "mcpaltAp" and that's really triggering my OCD. I'm looking at you, N-N.

Obligatory Lynch-1 warning.

[Franzie]

Thank you for confirming some of the details about wolfbullet. Do or die?

(edited for brevity)

You didn't even give a reason to vote me.

See post 223:

Wolfbullet, however, came in and immediately started attacking with circumstantial evidence.

Yes, if I look back on my first post, I made an offensive move when I first replaced into the game. However, I feel that my evidence was better than yours. Also, if you look back, I've been most suspicious of Boggzie (the player you replaced) and Flameaxe (who has since dropped off my radar), so this is more than just your actions, I'm afraid, it's more long-term. I'm just re-confirming my first real vote. I really feel that you/Boggz are scum.

I've noticed another interesting pattern such as when mcpaltp removed his vote on Flameaxe you followed suit.

I hadn't noticed, actually. Looking back, I didn't remove it immediately after mcpaltp did, or because he did. I removed my vote because Flameaxe finally showed some maturity in the game and proved that his gambit actually did something...it flushed you out. Maybe you wanted to forget that fact?

Also of interest is that both of you have nothing of interest to say on the other.

I think he's town? *shrug* I haven't said much about Selande/desolator or coxy/martini either, but you don't bring that up.

[Franzie]

I like how you cut out where I asked what in mcpaltp's post motivated you to vote for me by the way. Nicely done.

I liked the whole thing. That caused him to vote for you, would you like him to cut it down to one or two lines that made him vote for you too? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. He just confirmed what I was already thinking.

Also, personal attack language (such as "Nicely done") is used as a propaganda technique of painting the other guy as a bad guy. I've been trying to run, if you will, a "clean" campaign. I think you're getting desperate and resorting to personal attacks.

[Franzie]

So if you do turn up town I'm going to go with, "Bloody hell he was town...what a complete prat."

^^This

Also,

Vote: Mcpaltp.

Will L-1 get you to stop playing like a retard? I hope so.

And,

Oh yeah, I went there. I'm on the chair now.

What, hanging yourself? I haven't said too much in the last page or so, but I really don't like the fact that a) you are playing like a retard, and b) Why would someone who is actually town go out of their way to reassure us so many times that they are town? The only people who really benefit from saying that they're town...are scum. So,

I think we have heard from everyone now although Selande hasn't posted what she thinks of the me vs mcpaltp case...I'm happy for martini or Selande (or maybe Franzie would like to do some last minute bussing) to drop the hammer if they want to and everyone else is okay with it?

*nods*

Unvote:Wolfbullet
Vote: mcpaltp

[Franzie]

Although it's kind of pointless now, my top-suspects would have been Wolfbullet and mcpaltp, but I didn't think that both of them are scum.

Given MC Palty's recent behavior, I have to agree with this. Hence my action. Here's hopin he's scum.

[Franzie]

Also, Flameaxe, my dear boy, isn't it odd for you to be preaching caution? You of the blazing guns?

Apologies for double post. If you know anything about Guitar Hero 3, TTFAF is destroying my mind currently. But not earlier, just for the current double post.

[Franzie]

I know you really wanna talk in private and be all cool with your night choice, but did ya really need to make it THIS obvious? It makes teh game not fun.

This makes me giggle.

Why would you take him to L-1 if you didn't mean for him to be lynched? You should only take someone to L-1 if you're willing to see them go down. Also, everyone else seemed sure but you. Everyone posting recently, anyway. Including mcpaltp himself. And with most of us fairly sure about this (including you), why are you upset with this?

[Franzie]

Don't have much time now (I'm late for university) but I investigated NabNab overnight and he came up scum.

Vote: NabakovNabakov

If there's a doc, now's a good time to think about protecting me.

Also, that's a mildly amusing kill...our good mod is apparently a joker. Too bad he was just a vanilla townie though.

[Franzie]

First, to answer the most popular question, I investigated dear Nabakov because I had had a chance to look back through the last few pages while there was some downtime and I saw that he had been gently pushing us towards voting mcpaltp. He wasn't making any big accusatory posts, he wasn't shouting, he was just quietly pushing us towards lynching somebody that he obviously knew was town, and a scummy acting town too, what luck for you!

Yes, today is LYLO. Which is why I wanted to claim outright instead of trying to gently steer the conversation...and risk looking like NabNab. Yes, this makes me a target tomorrow, but there's a 50% chance that there's a dr. in our game, and I felt that that would help me not get killed, or at least confuse the heck out of Nab's partner when it comes down to who to kill.

I did NOT investigate Wolfbullet because I felt that he was mostly good-intentioned towards the end of yesterday...he seems to have been genuinely convinced, and in a series of long posts, he tried outright to convince us to vote for mcpaltp (including one post where he blatantly asks someone to hammer). I felt that I should investigate someone more sneakily scummy (to my senses) than someone who could either be bad scum or just overzealous town.

I don't feel like I need to respond to Nabakov...by attacking everybody who's posted anything so far in post 293, he's sowing confusion and trying to get us to vote for each other to get the pressure off of him. Do notice that he attacks Selande and martini, but not WolfBullet...which, I think, may conveniently divide the town into the correct groups. I can't be sure of that, though, he might be bussing one of the two that he grouped with me while trying to make it look like Wolfy is his scum partner. My jury is still out on Wolfbullet, I'm really split 50/50 on him.

Looking back, I see another question, from Selande about why I hammered mcpaltp. I think we can all agree that he looked incredibly scummy, even to the point of (metaphorically) jumping up and down and saying "Look, I'm town! Look, I'm town!" and he was saying it so much, I felt like he was in denial. That, combined with all of his absurdities in the posts on page 11 made me want him gone.

TTFN, I'm sure there will be more to say shortly. Today has seen a lot of posts, I like that.

[Franzie]

Bah Humbug!

Amen. No hard feelings. And bah.

[Franzie]

Well that took forever. As to my decision at the beginning of day 2, I was pretty much hosed anyway because I got impatient and hammered at the end of day 1. I mean...the fact that it was just about to cross over a month really bothered me, so I didn't care if I hammered, and I planned to claim cop to hopefully cause some chaos.

Thanks for modding, Flayster. 'twas an interesting first game for me.

[Franzie]

I was pretty much hosed anyway because I got impatient and hammered at the end of day 1. I mean...the fact that it was just about to cross over a month really bothered me, so I didn't care if I hammered, and I planned to claim cop to hopefully cause some chaos.

Hence one of the reasons we like games to take longer than many other sites do; scum sometimes get impatient and make mistakes.

Still, it was a good game overall. I'll post a graph of your posting rate later tonight when I get home...

I'm pretty sure I'd have gotten impatient if I was town, in a game taking this long. If mine and mcpaltp's roles were exchanged, I could see myself doing what he did. Maybe not that extreme, but my comments would definitely start dripping with sarcasm around the 3-week mark.