Newbie 1741 - Game Over

[Titus]

Any no lynches give the town a mathematical disadvantage, bad idea

What's the math on that?

The math isn't exact. If playing purely randomly, we are likely to lynch town. We don't. We play based off our feelings. Lynching is the only tool we have to kill scum, as inefficient as it may be.

We randomly vote until we get a feel for who is scum. Everyone scumhunts in their own way,but we do lynch unless the game hits mylo (where a mislynch loses the game).

We do not hammer (majority vote on a player) without a claim.

Any other questions, feel free to ask. I will be trying to ensure everyone has fun and develops their own technique. I will be honest about the ideal play.

VOTE: nn30

No lynches are bad.

[Titus]

Ooooh thanks.

VOTE: Titus

no lynches are bad, but so is voting for someone for legitimately asking a question. you could've at least waited for an answer y'know?

How do you assume the question is legitimate?

I see someone wanting to ensure scum feel no heat today as possible scum. It needs to be examined.

[Titus]

@Titus: it's a newbie game, plus i didn't see any mafia experience in his post history. Also I'm not sure pushing for a no lynch D1 is really optimum scum strategy, so i don't know what heat you're talking about.

On day one we don't have anything other than a hello and some bsing to go off of. Those feelings are worthless.

I'm still not seeing how no lynches are bad. *shrug*

if we don't lynch, we don't catch scum. Scum know this and thus favor no lynching. There's also no info to go off of to see who is right, who is wrong, and who should recalibrate.

[Titus]

^ does not compute

more Titus votes plz

You don't compute. You know as an IC, I am not allowed to lie about mechanics, so why are you insinuating I am?

[Titus]

That moment when you look up and realize you're not the IC when going to quote it.

This is what we call a derp.

[Titus]

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Town.

[Titus]

so why are you insinuating I am?

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

My honor is impugned. This is an outrage. I will not stand for this.

I'll see you in court.

You're obviously doing something any full emotion reading skilled player would get. I don't. So sue me?

[Titus]

I do not really agree with Titus that a scum newbie would propose a no lynch, but we just started RVS, so it didn't come off as (at least to me) a "nn30 is 100% scum for saying this", as much as "there's possible newbscum motivation behind this suggestion, here's a good vote."

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Town.

Is the L-2 vote without a direct reason too bold a move for scum?

First part, that's exactly how it should come across.

The town read is based off tone. Admittedly my weakest point but the way they did that feels townie.

[Titus]

You're obviously doing something any full emotion reading skilled player would get.

I don't know what this means.


I will say we are no longer in RVS as my vote is 100% legit and I'm super happy to see additional Titus votes.

Ya'll can thank me later.

Hahaha. No. I broke us out of RVS when I suspected Mr. No Lynch might be scum.

[Titus]

Ok you can have credit. I'm sure it'll be a major source of comfort up on the gallows. :3

It will be when I watch scum get their heads rolled. Thanks for not helping.

[Titus]

I am so helping rn.

Generate discussion? Check.
Scumhunt? Check.
Pushing wagon? Check.

I'm the towniest town the ever towned and you know it, that's why you aren't even accusing me of anything.

You could be like

"ayy this zito guy's pushing bs on me vote: zito"
or
"ayy let's dissect or hell even question this zito guy what's pushing a wagon and got me to L-2 on page 2"

but nah you're just like
"this is fine" #firedog

Wow, there's a self-vouch. There we go.

I have no idea what you're doing, means you should be explaining. You aren't. You aren't generating discussion, as your retreat from the thread shows. If you thought the conversation was important. I actually AM doing option two.

That mic, it's stuck to your hand.

[Titus]

I have no idea what you're doing

QUESTION FOR THE AUDIENCE


I have accused Titus of being The Accursed Scum.
I have pushed for more votes on Titus.
I haven't really revealed

why

I feel so strongly about this.
Titus also hasn't really asked despite not knowing wtf I'm doing.


What do YOU think about this state of affairs?

Saying I have no idea what you're doing is an invitation for reasonable people to explain what the fuck they are doing.

[Titus]

A game without rvs wagon? Nah.
VOTE: Titus
Because derp, obviously.
L-2 I believe.

Town.

Shushhh, that's too soon!! I thought we said we're gonna wait a little bit longer for that in mafia chat???

Our chat so bad ass. Our goal is to make Papa Zito look like a genius so I take all the bullets from the town vigilante. Like so perfect plan right.

Now, let's actually go troll lol lynch the scumfucks. Who do we lynch?

[Titus]

Naw that's an observation. An invitation is like,

September 19, 2016
1741 Scumclub Ln
Mislynchville, TN


Dear Zito,

U r dabes. I follow all your games. You perform miracles on a daily basis. Clearly I have Done Something Wrong here. Will you please:

[ ] illuminate my transgressions
[ ] grace us with your bountiful knowledge
[ ] go out w/ me


<3,

Titus


P.S. All invitations must include a PS for some reason.

ayy area tags I need to use you more

Sorry I'm not holding your hand, but if you want me to I can.

Papa Zito's Invitation to be helpful

September 19, 2016
999 Townblock Way
Awesomeville, CA

Dear Zito,

Pirate Mollie's told me great things about you. Why are you disappointing me?

[ ] I'm reaction testing
[ ] I'm derping
[ ] I'm scum

Please reply as soon as possible.

</3

Titus

P.S. A loving reply is appreciated.

[Titus]

Hey, algebra, the door is open for you to explain why you're hunting for associations on town? Why do you seem to have a vocabulary that suggests you are not new but a playstyle that suggests you are?

[Titus]

VOTE: algebra

[Titus]

And your vote doesn't qualify for that because....?

Also, lol at you being a newbie when you're using terms like preflip associations.

[Titus]

algebra is the other SE slot, Titus.

Yeah, my point exactly. He's trying wounded puppy dog defense, while acting dumber than he is.

[Titus]

Arona, are you alegbra's buddy?

[Titus]

I don't really believe that the vote was random. I voted for titus because I interpreted her post as first acknowledging that nn30's question about new lynches was just a newbie question, and then voting for nn30 as if nn30 legitimately wanted to push a no lynch. It just struck me as odd.

Oh you. I like you.

This is precisely what earned my vote. There's were some screwball mental gymnastics involved with that post and I'd love to hear Titus explain wtf was going on in her headmeat when she made it.

Newbie scum that wanted a no lynch.

That's not mental gymnastics but calling out self preservation when I see it.

[Titus]

Self preservation?

what?

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

[Titus]

Self preservation?

what?

Seriously, did you not put together that newbie scum might suggest no lynch because they fear getting lynched?

Shaddowez already answered this but no, it never crossed my mind that someone would fear getting lynched on page freaking 2.

Can you explain how "fear of getting lynched" is specific to newb scum only and not something that'd afflict newb town?

It could be either. I voted to start the sorting process. I wanted to figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated. The best way to do that was to increase the pressure he feels.

[Titus]

It could be either. I voted to start the sorting process. I wanted to figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated. The best way to do that was to increase the pressure he feels.

Can you show me where you attempted to do this sorting?

15 The very post you're objecting too.

The vote increases the pressure. I'm wanting to get at WHY he doesn't want a no lynch.

[Titus]

Asking questions isn't the right tool to use.

The vote increases pressure. The guy fears being lynched. A reasonless vote increases the fear level. It's not about asking questions.

The vote is the start of the sorting process.

[Titus]

Like I had a choice. I'm not even voting for the guy anymore. I'm voting for you.

You seem fully capable of following along, but not capable of actually answering questions put to you.

[Titus]

Ok Zito is probably town.

Just need two more town to powerblock through this.

[Titus]

@Titus and you're confirmed town how?

My role PM is green. :-p So I kinda know I'm town.

You afraid of me finding two more town?

[Titus]

No no no no no.

You stated the purpose of that vote was to "start the sorting process." The sorting process would "figure out whether the fear was town or scum motivated."

I'm asking you to show us the sorting process you're referring to.

Asking questions isn't the right tool to use.

The vote increases pressure. The guy fears being lynched. A reasonless vote increases the fear level. It's not about asking questions.

The vote is the start of the sorting process.

[Titus]

Ok Zito is probably town.

Just need two more town to powerblock through this.

Is this appeasement or what

I actually do want my question answered.

You should read.

I'm very annoyed PZ.

[Titus]

idc if you're annoyed, I'm not getting what I want. I asked about your process. You said the word "process" I used the word "process" at no point did I ever dig at you about "questions". Where is your process. How does it work. Show me what it was supposed to be doing. You "increased the fear level" gr8 but how the hell does that sort anybody. Is this thing on? ¿Estoy hablando Inglés?

Like this shouldn't be so hard. I'm literally trying to get at what your motivation was on that vote cuz what was posted in-game made 0 sense. It's super easy to understand what I'm trying to get at here and thus (AND THUS) should be super easy to just provide what I'm looking for and move on. Why am I having to drag this shit over multiple pages?

And it shouldn't be that hard for you to understand what I'm saying.

I'm investigating whether he fears a lynch because he's town or scum.
Voting him would help figure that out.

Then I coincidentally get wagoned. He doesn't feel the same fear and the opportunity is gone.

It's because you are not listening that's so frustrating.

[Titus]

So here's where my thoughts are right now. Please chime in if you agree / disagree.

Townie feeling - Dunhallym - entered the game and gave some good analysis on what was going on. This is difficult to do as scum since pretending to do analysis on who is and isn't scum is difficult when you already know the answer.
Townie feeling - Aronagrundy - more of a feeling than anything, but she seems genuine town.

Scummy feeling - Algebra - quick to go along with a lynch vote but isn't offering much in the way of reasoning. Maybe because he knows the people he's putting votes on aren't scum.
Scummy feeling - Titus - five pages in and she won't let go of her scum tell on me. Is it so hard to believe that a newbie would think a no lynch is good?
Scummy feeling - Morning Tweet - post 81 was the tell. Read page three up to post 81. Tweet's analysis comes out of nowhere basically. As I said above it's difficult to do analysis as scum, no?

No reads - everyone else.

Whatever happens, I just want day one to be over. Nothing here is set in stone - I want to see if scum do before I make any concrete conclusions.

Interesting. You

do

seem phased by the fact I suspected you and blind to the fact my vote is now on Algebra. You seem to phrase your own actions as a scumtell, when I never did. Guilty conscience much?

You're no less than the third person who has expressed Algebra is scummy, but has voted elsewhere. If you think that my insistance on wanting you sorted is scummy, how can you have no read on Papa Zito, who is pushing that point. You're also voting him over your scumreads, which makes as much sense as subtlety on me.

[Titus]

Great, so according to your own words, we're far out of RVS but you're still joking around?

Also, given your behavior towards my push, my reply details the fact you are phased. That's pretty true. Stop trying to be bigman on campus if you're town. Stop joking around. A joke is ok, but retracting a vote based on its a joke doesn't make any sense. You seem to be doing whatever it is that gets people to like you. Well guess what I like odd balls.

[Titus]

@Papa Zito, Who said anything complaining about your focus?

A joke is fine. Calling a vote a joke in RVS tends to be scum. If we're in RVS, then nn should act like it's RVS. If he has scumreads, he should sort those.

Yes, nn30 is scared and you are undermining what I am doing. I voted him and later voted algebra. Nn30 still thought my vote was on them and I was only focused on them. If that's not scared aka phased, then your definition needs to change.

[Titus]

Algebra, why was nn30's post terrible?

[Titus]

@Dunn, I thought I said why Zito is town, probably. His push seems to come from understanding what I am thinking and pursuing it.

Nn30 does appear to be scared of rope, but this counter seems a little opportunistic.

[Titus]

I am paricularly concerned with Grundy and algebra there.

Grundy didn't understand my logic but immediately sheeps the logic when algebra is up for lynch...uhh what?

[Titus]

Yeah it's probably Grundy and algebra here. Nn30 just fears being lynched as town. Grundy and algebra are inconsistent and scumread each other but vote elsewhere.

@Dun, the very parts you don't like are what suggest Zito is town unless it's overly semantic. To find town, you need to find the process. So Zito wanting to understand mine is not a problem at all. If he plays dumb, then it's a problem.

I think you're the first person in a long while who has said I play a closed cards game. I tend to be quite open and overly blunt.

[Titus]

Morning tweet, where is my shiny question?

It's impossible to determine exactly what algebra is thinking but he is acting like he scumreads you. You are doing classic vote town FoS buddy.

[Titus]

Nn30 does appear to be scared of rope, but this counter seems a little opportunistic.

@Titus what counter are you referring to?

Your wagon countering algebra.

[Titus]

@dunn: well, I think a better way to put it is that algebra has been consistently uncooperative, which is a big reason why he's being suspected right now. It just makes me wonder if this is just his playstyle. I think he's anti-town regardless. Contrast this with Titus who I suspect mostly because of repeated gaps in her logic despite being consistent in her style.

@nn30: please explain why algebra's post 172 doesn't make sense.

And this is why Grundy is scum.

The algebra slot is anti-town but Grundy is now townreading it for "reasons"

[Titus]

@Papa Zito How do you feel about nn30 now? Similarly to how I feel, or is he one of your reads you don't wish to share? (131)

I wouldn't mind seeing him swing at this point. However there's a slot that's yet to chime in with much so I'm in a bit of a holding pattern waiting for that to happen. We've got plenty of time and while I certainly don't advocate using all of it just for the sake of using all of it (that's a fantastic way to kill games) I also don't wanna hit night with a giant unknown in ecane.

Also I feel like at this point I need to do some isodives because this game is surprisingly dense.

How do you feel about Dunn thinking you are nitpicky?

[Titus]

@shaddowez, I never had a strong scumread on nn. I figured his flail under pressure would sort him. The behavior here suggests he is town.

[Titus]

Wouldn't non flail as both alignments?

There are two types of flail. Town flail and scum flail.

[Titus]

Wouldn't non flail as both alignments?

There are two types of flail. Town flail and scum flail.

How do you distinguish the two?

Secret of mafia.

Not going to say just yet.

[Titus]

This is a great group of newbies. Please regardless of your alignment or how algebra flips stick around. Both town and scum IMO are putting up one hell of an effort, I can tell that by the sheer detail I need to read.

[Titus]

Mod: VC please

There's something hinky with these votes moving fast. I'm going to check my assumptions there.

[Titus]

Titus is at L-1 so we don't want to lynch the slot right now because we should get a good feel on the other players and possibly get some assosicative reads.

Algebra never said preflip associations, he said associative reads. How very semantic of you.

Also, I never backtracked on anything. I knew nn30 was scared but my whole point was to sort him. I literally spent pages on Zito with that.

When Zito pushes you, you randomly dig up old shit based on semantics. What gives?

I might be changing who algebra's partner is soon. This definitely seems like counter wagon shopping.

[Titus]

Yeah, my very point is that you literally said associative reads and not preflip associations, but that's like saying shoe or footwear. They're synonymous.

[Titus]

@Titus

Welp. That didn't help as much as I'd hoped it would.

I am no longer interested in lynching nn30 though, I think those voters are on the wrong track. Grundy and Big Poof strike me as bros. Algebra's a mess and I see why he's getting flak but I'm super unsure about what he's doing or why. Tweet needs to post more - Don't Let Your Dreams Be Dreams. Shadow's lack of presence continues to be a major concern. I want to throw Titus through a window regardless of her alignment.

I think that's about where I'm at.


Time to start Doing Stuff I guess I'll start here.

@algebra:

Who would you say are your top 3 scumspects? I don't need reasons just a list is cool.

You forgot me
A few questions for you:
1) you said earlier you had reads but didn't want to share them yet. Why?
2) what were those reads and are they different from the ones you express now that you've reread things ?

Sorry about that. I forgot.

I was looking at the interactions between algebra and Grundy. My worst habit is tunnelling, so I deliberately sat back and waited. We had algebra, no point in trying to force the whole puzzle. Grundy has improved immensely and he responses to my questions were not bad.

Meanwhile, Shaddowez seems to be flailing but in a scummy way. He actually is backtracking on positions in an effort to counter wagon for algebra

[Titus]

Nn30, good start. Scum can engage in bussing though. Look deeper. Look at why and when.

[Titus]

@Titus - You're right, bussing could happen. Though I'm assuming that it wouldn't happen on day one. I imagine bussing is good for mid/late game when being on the wagon that turns up a scum gains you some cred among the town. Doing that right now and risking turning the game into 7 vs 1 seems suboptimal.

Agreed. But what if voting your buddy was the only way to save him? All angles need to be considered. Sometimes players are suboptimal.

My biggest moonlogic moments were when I eliminated a suboptimal scenario. You could be right and shadow is town. You'll reach the same result anyway.

[Titus]

@Shaddowez, Again you reference my "stubbornness" in talking with Zito.

This is important on three fronts. 1) You used it to white knight me when a wagon developed on me. 2) It's not a fair representation of what happened. It's more accurate to say Zito and I were talking past each other. 3) You suddenly acted as if those pages were scummy later, when needing to stop voting algebra.

People picked up on this as well. You're asking me to essentially rehash what others filling in for me. I am not in the mood to rehash.

Your retract your vote on me right after being called on it. This type of sheepish attitude doesn't work for an IC. You are not answering or resolving things.

I'm fine with going here.

VOTE: Shaddowez

[Titus]

That is L minus 1. The next voter should claim intent to hammer, rather than voting. This tells Shaddowez to claim. It's standard across the site.

[Titus]

@Morning, I fully intend to come after algebra tomorrow.

[Titus]

@zito, you really think I of all people would let Algebra go?

[Titus]

You will figure it out. Click the quote button. Preview before posting.

You will need to revote Shaddowez though.

[Titus]

Minus nn30, this is the algebra wagon.

Can we get intent from you MT?

[Titus]

We are not a 10 person game.

We lynch because we gain information based on lynching. Scum are not going to kill people we wagon. Lynching should always be done but got mylo.

[Titus]

I know we're not a 10 person game. I was presenting a scenario in which a day one no lynch holds some merit. Hence - irrelevant aside.


If we were to play a 10 person game, I wouldn't even bring up a no lynch until maybe the last 2 days. That way we played as if we were going to lynch and gained information already. In a 10 person game - assuming lynches never land on scum - a no lynch day one scenario comes with the same number of town lynches as a day one lynch scenario.

Common wisdom around here is to always lynch Day 1 regardless of even/odd number of players. Reason being is Day 1 generates a ton of info with wagons and conversation which you'll lose if you decide to no lynch that day.

I mean, I get that. What if a no lynch day one was only pushed after the wagon had moved around the town and information was gained?

Doesn't work. Wagons are effective pressure because scum don't want to die.

Plus, no lynch pushing after you see who is on the block is AI.

[Titus]

@dunn, I hear you but I am waiting on Shadow. My logic should be clear from my prior posts though.

[Titus]

Then at least say intent to hammer so we can proceed with scumhunting?

Also, the procedure for that is bolding VLA in thread.

[Titus]

Now this is the part where Shaddowez claims his role.

[Titus]

Hmm... Interesting wagon makeup

[Titus]

Wow, so much deflection.

Shaddow should eat rope now.

I'm going to summarize his post.
Titus is wierd but I have no evidence.
I am the easy target as the IC.
I'm not going to vote the counterwagon.
I am a VT.

[Titus]

That is L minus 1. The next voter should claim intent to hammer, rather than voting. This tells Shaddowez to claim. It's standard across the site.

Titus, you know you're not IC and this isn't the first time you're doing IC-like things. Considering your statement in 287, it feels like you're doing it for town cred.

I'd take this more seriously if you were around more.


With a VT claim I'm perfectly happy sitting where I am. ALSO I'm loving the competing wagons you guys have no idea.

Titcr

[Titus]

Shaddowez tried to argue I went after an easy target. Since when is the IC an easy target?

[Titus]

@Zito - On mobile. Just lost 30 minutes worth of reply to mafia scum telling me to login again. RIP. In the car - will chime in soon.

If you're VLA now you should use the

tag to tell the mod.

[Titus]

Oh perfect. Algebra hammer bussed. Perfect.

[Titus]

If that happens, we do PR/VT claims. By popcorn.

Then claim roles. Popcorn again.

[Titus]

vla

I forgot to tell you to include the days you'll be Vla for, but if you're not back by daybreak, I'll remind the mod.

That's the idea though.

[Titus]

No flip O.o?

[Titus]

I guess it will be awhile before we are breaking dawn.

[Titus]

They do if smart.

[Titus]

I'd take a scumlean over a town with a couple days left any day

Since when was Shaddowez a Scumlean?

[Titus]

Mod: please remember nn30 is VLA until Tuesday

[Titus]

OK, so why agrundy is my question. Did they see a crumb?

At least one of my townreads must be scum. So not to thrilled about that.

[Titus]

What if the kill wasn't to protect dead algebra but to set up the teammate?

[Titus]

VOTE: algebra

If a scumfuck is dead weight, murdering town that suspect the partner is good play.

[Titus]

That would suggest Dunn given how Grundy treated Dunn in his last posts but *shrug* not 100% sure there.

[Titus]

VOTE: Papa Zito

I kinda want to go investigating for a moment.

[Titus]

@grundy

- regarding 258: I was asked specifically about the zito v Titus argument spanning pages. I referenced one specific aspect of Titus' meta there (stubbornness). In 250, I'm referring to what I know of her game in general, not just one aspect. You're basically asking me how I can say "This tree is dying" at the same time as saying "This forest is so lush!"

Well your specific issues with titus this game involved how she was "backtracking whenever confronted with something," which is kind of the opposite of stubborn so I took notice.

Algebra never said preflip associations, he said associative reads. How very semantic of you.

This is mostly my fault. I was literally searching for the phrase you used and didn't actually go back through his posts to see the phrasing. That said, I don't like algebra's "reminder" after you clarified.

I'm still hesitant based on this not being the town!Titus I'm used to, but not enough to have a vote there.

UNVOTE:

omg there's an unvote code, never knew.

Anyway, so you didn't even bother to research what algebra said but you knew titus was wrong anyway?
VOTE: shaddowez

This post is why I would look at Dunn.

[Titus]

Holy crap wrong post.

[Titus]

Now reread post 172™: nn30 flips red means nn30 is guilty so algebra says “when nn30 is proven scum we should look at Titus” which is equivalent to saying nn and Titus are likely partners. I don’t see how this can read differently. Titus voted nn in the beginning, hence why I talked of distancing. Now regarding the bolded part, I’m not saying that YOU think Titus is scum, I’m saying that you are accusing Empoof of trying to get us to lynch first you/algebra then Titus because of the following logic: algebra/arona is false means Titus is scum for suggesting it so once either of you flips town, then we lynch Titus. I didn’t see Empoof suggesting that and in fact, it was you who pushed this theory.

Yes that was my logic at the time. I had just decided that titus was town after all and when empoof came along and tried to explicitly push the arona/algebra team (despite initially saying algebra was town and not really describing his suspicions toward me) I saw the possibility of opportunistic scum. I wasn't entirely satisfied with his explanations as to why he thought I was scum upon reading the thread but the speed at which he abandoned pushing algebra/myself did quite a bit to remove my suspicions (it meant he likely wasn't looking for a double mislynch after all, but also now that I'm feeling more strongly that algebra is scum the fact that he was willing to discuss lynching algebra in the first place upon his arrival gave him some town points).

I address the multiple interpretations of Post 172 and how looking more closely at them shifted my reads here:

To clarify our different assumptions on page 172, I'm saying that algebra is mostly reacting to titus's push on him/myself, and saying that she's probably scushe's wrong. I assumed this because it came right after me pointing out that algebra has never scumread me. This is how I read it. Perhaps wrongly, because I was personally in the mindframe of "wtf is titus saying." In other words, I'm assuming that 172 was primarily reactionary to titus's case, and you're assuming that it's primarily accusatory of titus and nn30 as a scumteam. I admit that because of my position I never saw it the way you did and that could have been a mistake. I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call it an invalid assumption, though, since the logic behind my assumption (I think) makes sense. This does make nn30 seem less scummy, since he'd be more inclined to interpret 172 the way you did, I suppose. Of course algebra could always clarify what he meant/what he thinks now like I asked him to.

Sorry, my English betrayed me. I meant your logic implies that algebra town= nn scum, not “infers”. I’ll try to be clearer. algebra indeed seems to suggest that Titus is pushing algebra/arona to distract us from nn30. However, you are stretching things. Because if algebra and nn are both innocent then nn30 will not flip red and Titus cannot be his partner. So by interpreting 172 the way you do, you imply that algebra town is equivalent to nn scum.
Now I wanted to clarify this but I’m too tired to make my mind on what to think regarding arona. Input welcome.

You're seeing the rejection of the possibility of algebra/nn30 both being town when it never existed. I'm pretty sure every townie that pushes a case is aware there's a chance they may be wrong and just doesn't feel the need to address the multiple ways their case may be wrong. Honestly I never gave much thought to the idea of algebra/nn30 both being town but I can't say there was ever a moment where I thought to myself, "wow it's completely impossible these guys are both town."

*snip*

That question seems kind of general.

Because of the small number of players in this game and the fact that the only way we have to catch scum is to lynch someone, I don't think that we should lynch someone unless we think that they're scum.

I’m not sure that I get the bolded part.

In larger games you see more town killing roles which can also get rid of scum. If it was twice the number of people we could get away with just ignoring algebra and leave him to be killed by the vig.

This one.

[Titus]

@Titus - I read your 456 twice. Now please assist me in getting my brain into the same space as your brain by using the words.

It was his last large suspicion before he died.

[Titus]

oh


ok well I'm not sure I see much in the way of suspicion there
coupled with the fact that basically nobody else was scumreading that slot to my knowledge so defensive NKing would be extremely unlikely

Why do you think I am voting you?

[Titus]

@Papa Zito,

At first, you were pressuring me because you allegedly could not understand my vote. Now, you're telling people not to pay attention because I cannot be understood by anyone. Those two beliefs appear inconsistent no?

[Titus]

I don't think I told anyone not to pay attention to anything? Could you quote this?

If you're referring to 460 that's one of those amazing leaps of moonlogic you're known for. I was wishing nn30 good luck there because he (?) was, in his (?) words, "getting my brain into the same space as your brain by using the words". I'm not sure this is possible for anyone.

Yeah that's pretty much textbook ignore Titus she's nuts but in nice terms.

[Titus]

Hey Zito why are you not voting?

[Titus]

Yeah, well don't complain about the game not going anywhere and do nothing yourself.

[Titus]

Watches

[Titus]

@492, I am investigating Zito by voting him. Not particularly liking his OMGUS stance here.

@497, Why would I revert to Algebra day 1? A scumread dead is a scumread dead. I am deliberately testing things right now. What is your read on algebra, if scum, why are you not voting?

[Titus]

And I am telling you that I moved off Algebra after the Shaddowez wagon took off. I mentioned Shaddowez trajectory was shit because it was.

Emproof is town.

I am looking for algebra's partner, if he has one.

[Titus]

And I am telling you that I moved off Algebra after the Shaddowez wagon took off. I mentioned Shaddowez trajectory was shit because it was.

Emproof is town.

I am looking for algebra's partner, if he has one.

Empoof town - you're gonna have to give us more to go off of than that.

No, really, I don't. Scum must be in algebra/Dunn/Zito based on how this has played out. Therefore emproof is town.

[Titus]

In addition scum killed a member of the shadow wagon, Arona, as if they wanted to make it even easier to lynch algebra today by leaving algebra voters alive.

This is an interesting idea. One issue with your theory is this:

Ok so if shaddowez flips town, I really don't see how algebra isn't going to be lynched tomorrow.

If the idea was to ensure an algebra mislynch today, why kill someone who looks like they're a very willing algebra voter?

If they wanted to not kill an alegra voter, they'd have to no kill.

[Titus]

@empoof, vote papa or algebra then?

[Titus]

@empoof, vote papa or algebra then?

Why would you vote Papa today over Algebra

Because I am investigating if papa is scum. I would rather have investigation today.

I also want to see what algebra does in response.

[Titus]

@Empoof Believe me, I'm not townreading algebra for his words or actions. The night kill is what's setting me off, I think the only way I'm wrong about it is if scum don't put any thought behind who they kill at night. His hammer was NAI self preservation, yesterday I didn't think highly of it but with the new info I have no problem with his explanation in 283.

Seeing as algebra hadn't yet voted shadowez, I see no reason for scum that hadn't already jumped on shadow to perform the hammer. I also don't think this'd be a smart WIFOM.

@Titus You mention you're looking for algebras partner, and that given your reads (which we still don't know much about) his scumpartner is Dunn or Zito. You haven't yet answered Dunny's question of why I'm not in that pile (especially when I seem to be the only person in the game that doesn't want algebra hung)

That's why you're not in the pile. Algebra's partner, assuming they have one, would bus here.

I am still considering papa/dunn as well.

[Titus]

@Dunn, I already am. They just are not useful until a flip happens.

@Emproof, It's just a behavioral hypothesis if algebra is town. Zito white knights, Dunn pressures. They shot the one slot suspecting either.

[Titus]

@PapaZito, Hardly. My vote where it is does volumes depending on Algebra's alignment

[Titus]

How do you feel about Algebra's mudsling?

[Titus]

@Dunn, Why are you whiteknighting algebra?

@Zito, why have you done no investigation but just tried mechanically to move the day along?

[Titus]

Zito, why should we be townreading you or Dunn?

[Titus]

Ok, 5 alive means we are in lylo.

Nobody vote. Scum can quickly dual hammer.

What needs to happen now is that we utilize the fact there is a confirmed town or counterclaim to our adapvantage.

1) We use intent to vote statements to generate votes.
2) Someone gets two of these.
3) They claim PR or not.
4) If the person claims PR, anyone has the chance to CC.
5) If no cc, conftown. If a CC happens, there is our lynch pool.
6) If the person we intended to vote on claims VT, they pick the next person.

Intent to Vote Papa in the future

[Titus]

3) They claim PR or not.
4) If the person claims PR, anyone has the chance to CC.
5) If no cc, conftown. If a CC happens, there is our lynch pool.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

	A	B	C
1	Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town 1-shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

We know we have setup 1 or A due to Arona. What's stopping scum from claiming BP in 1? No one would counterclaim, then they'd be "conftown"?

Ok, 5 alive means we are in lylo.

Nobody vote. Scum can quickly dual hammer.

What needs to happen now is that we utilize the fact there is a confirmed town or counterclaim to our adapvantage.

1) We use intent to vote statements to generate votes.
2) Someone gets two of these.
3) They claim PR or not.
4) If the person claims PR, anyone has the chance to CC.
5) If no cc, conftown. If a CC happens, there is our lynch pool.
6) If the person we intended to vote on claims VT, they pick the next person.

Intent to Vote Papa in the future

Scum know the plan now and can behave accordingly.

How does this help us?

I have reason to believe everyone here in intelligent, so the town PR would claim to be a PR. Either, it's a tracker with a clear or a BP who is confirmed clear.

Scum have to justify their positions. To Rolefish someone, they'd have to dual vote.

[Titus]

aronagrundy,

Jailkeeper

, Killed Night 1

Day 2 begins now and will last for 14 days, or (expired on 2016-10-19 21:53:21).

Did you miss this, Titus?

No. That's why I am confident there is only 1 pr left.

[Titus]

I am sorry. I was using the old newbie setup which had two PRs.

We are still in lylo and I need to catch up.

[Titus]

I never considered there not being a BP because I am. But considering my plan had a flaw, might as well claim.

[Titus]

Nn30, Zito's been scum shading the entire time. I tried to get him to do things but he refused.

The thing is, who is his partner. I hard townread everyone else here.

[Titus]

@Morning Tweet, My claim doesn't clear me. I was using an outdated version where JK was paired with either tracker or BP. I remove any claim of my role clearing me. I have not been 100% clear this game between illness and IRL. It's totally my fault.

@Emproof, It wasn't so much that I wanted Papa over Algebra, but I was alarmed at the lack of scumhunting going on. No one was trying to press the game forward, and something felt off about Papa Zito. So I pressured it.

When scumhunting, we should be seeking resolution, right or wrong. Being able to vote anyone at any time is a red flag just as much as buddying. I am pretty sure Zito is scum using that standard but I want to find the other scum before I vote. The catch is there's good reason to doubt all of you as scum.

[Titus]

Also Titus my name is Empoof that's been bugging me since you started using Emproof D2. Not why I'm scumreading you though

Night kills: Arona and Dunn. Someone give me reasons why these 2 died. Mostly Arona. I read through Arona and am not seeing anything that jumps out at me. Dunn was Papa's homie at the end of D2 and sassed Titus but I haven't read through them yet.

Titus what was your line of questions going for yesterday, it felt like there was no wind in your sails. Most of the questions felt loaded or reasonless.

I'm gonna tear into Titus/nn EoD 1 since I remember titus goading nn for the shaddow hammer

I was fishing a bit. Something felt off that I couldn't explain. I feel like that kill was almost designed to make my theory look bad, but why? *scratch* Something is off with my reads so I'll get to NN30 in a moment.

[Titus]

@Zito - Self vouch was post 38.

I'm afraid I fail to see any real scumhunting here, nor do I see what's earned your top townread status.

If none of this is scumhunting, would you mind pointing me to examples which

are

scumhunting?

@Titus - post your reasons. Maybe we can help identify the weakest of your town reads.

Ok, let's go.

You don't really make sense as a Zito buddy. The way Zito is framing you as scum whiteknighting me or my hypothetical buddy isn't exactly likely in a scum!Zito universe. Possible sure. Likely no. Combined with his openings on you and me, knowing I am town I'm not really inclined to find you scummy.
Morning Tweet has been pretty town since go and Zito hard buddying that slot doesn't suggest scum.
Then we have Empoof, who hasn't really been acting like scum in his push on me to elucidate my reads in order to get a better grasp on them.

Yet, we're at 5 players. One of you must be scum. Gun to my head, Empoof solely because of his last post where he said Morning Tweet could be on any scumteam. That doesn't really look like he's progressing the game and could be planning if Papa dies in a bus. Even I realize that's a bit of a stretch but I'm picking someone in order to shake my reads up as one MUST be wrong. TWO if Papa is town (which is unlikely)

[Titus]

Well here's the first thing.

You [Nn30] don't really make sense as a Zito buddy. The way Zito is framing you as scum whiteknighting me or my hypothetical buddy isn't exactly likely in a scum!Zito universe. Possible sure. Likely no.

Combined with...

Zito hard buddying that slot doesn't suggest scum.

Doesn't make sense.

Your logic:

1) Zito frames me as scum. Therefore, I must be town.
2) Zito buddies Tweet. Therefore, she must be town.

They both can't be indicators of town.

So either Zito is actually town (I agree, unlikely) or you need you rethink your Morning Tweet read.

No. There's two differing behaviors. Scum don't whiteknight all of town and scumread all of scum or vice versa. How people treat others can be indicative of their own alignment.

As for Morning Tweet, scum don't generally campaign for the votes of their buddy. That doesn't make sense, suggesting Morning Tweet is town.
Scum also don't attack the credibility of their buddy in lylo unless setting up for a bus. That suggests you're town.
Then there's Empoof, who Papa Zito has been wierd with so he's the best bet but *shrug* I partially wonder whether I am selling it to myself.

[Titus]

Papa, thoughts on Empoof?

What do you mean by softballing?

[Titus]

Already did. You aren't solving anyone.

I can see you ignored my request for your read on Empoof. Why not answer it if you have one?

[Titus]

If you don't answer by the time my morning court ends, I am voting you PZ.

[Titus]

I did that. Sorry you cannot assail it. Not Sorry.

Care to quote where you reach a decision on him?

[Titus]

That's not reaching a decision.

Tbh, I would already be voting you but Empoof's comments about Papa Zito/Titus are ridiculous.

[Titus]

I am willing to vote Papa or Empoof.

You nn?

[Titus]

There's only one kill. The arogundy kill is frankly wtf. It suggests scum widely townread.

[Titus]

I kinda want to vote Empoof.

Who is Zito's partner to you?

[Titus]

i have work tonight and a busy weekend. So sparingly.

I trust nn30. You can buddy with valid reasoning. The two are separate ideas.

[Titus]

Yeah, I am like 95% sure it's Papa Emproof.

Notice how selective Empoof's team analysis is. Like, he says he could but why not? Because all those universes don't help the scumteam.

[Titus]

I did. His Papa Zito argument was nonsense. It basically let's him bus and look good if Zito is the lynch or it keeps Zito and me fighting if I am wrong. None of his posts highlight any motion towards resolving anything.

He left out Tweet Titus, Tweet Zito and Zito NN because attacking you isn't going to get your vote. Zito doesn't need to be persuaded as they are likely buddies. Putting Zito in a bad light doesn't help.

Basically, you're meant to be the town mislynched and Zito is most likely the first vote (based on nn30 doubting Empoof as scum). Those three scenarios do not help sell that.

[Titus]

My quotes can be found with the ISO feature. My entire ISO is scumhunting. You aren't disputing the fact you suggested Papa Zito Titus scumteam, so I am certain you can find that in your own ISO. This demand for quotations is posturing. Again, your last post doesn't solve anything but is an attempt to paint concise posts as the enemy.

Zito had an awkward dance the entirety of Day 2. His entrance with me early was wierd. I have been trying to solve them.

A common tactic of scum is word salad. Lots of words to say nothing.

That wall said

I don't dispute your theory but prove you scumhunted my way. A quick skim through my reads shows I already had this discussion with nn30. The only plausible person with Zito scum is you.

[Titus]

Vla until Monday

[Titus]

Hey, Morning Tweet,

There seems to be two dichotomies forming. PZ/Empoof v. myself and nn30. Do you believe this is accurate? Do you believe that this is correct?

You've commented on the theory, but I'd like to see the substance.

[Titus]

I agree with nn's assessment regardless of whether I am right on Zito or not. Regardless of Zito's alignment, Zito's looking for something to attack when the issue is the absence of Zito doing something.

I'm bored.

VOTE: Empoof

[Titus]

I'm testing my theory. I'll be around for awhile, I want to see what happens.

Like in some remote way you and nn30 might both be town. I just struggle to see any world where Empoof is town after his bad posts regarding you and I being teamed.

[Titus]

It was. But this is lylo. So I have to keep reassessing supposing that I'm right and wrong at the same time. Yet, I cannot come up with a town based justification for his passive posting of a Zito/Titus scumteam. He's done no effort to resolve it or push anyone towards that conclusion OR verify it's authenticity. He has one of us solidly as scum but maybe both. There's no effort to resolve that conclusion whatsoever. Town would want that resolution.

Scum!Empoof benefits regardless of your alignment. If you're town, he fuels a TvT which he particularly doesn't want to take sides on so he can come back on the hammer and fuel a false dichotomy. If you're scum, he sets himself up to bus if necessary.

[Titus]

*sees my list of hydra accounts* *cries inside*

@nn30 - I don't think answering that is appropriate.

[Titus]

I'm gonna eat some dinner feel free to ask me anything.

Gonna be honest and say I don't think I'm a strong enough player to deal with Titus' strong arming as we go forward but I'll do my best for town

Why do you think I strong arm things?
I couldn't even get any scumhunting going the day algebra died.

[Titus]

Yes, Empoof is indeed scum.

I voted Empoof because I could not create a scenario where Empoof is town.

I'm not 100% sure on Zito's alignment, but this method would confirm Empoof or myself as scum. There would be no hammer.

Thus, the question is who is Empoof's partner.

Which boils down to three questions...

1) Is nn30 buddying me hoping I'd vote Zito to wreck the game?
2) Is Morning Tweet being passive because he's waiting out hoping to hammer the first thing that moves, or coasting on being townread?
3) Can Zito pull something competent here at the end?

4) What relationships does Empoof have with others at this point?

[Titus]

@Titus - convince me that killing Arona is in Empoof's best interests. Why would he do this when Arona was town reading him farily strongly.

@Empoof - what are your thoughts on not being dead yet?

Who was scumreading Arona? Arona was a safe kill. We're lynching townies. Killing players that are suspected doesn't benefit scum. Killing players who are pushing on town doesn't make sense. In that sense, regardless of who was scum Arona is a good kill. It's called dead because obvious town.

[Titus]

Two possibilities if you're town -

Titus is scum and baiting.
Titus is town and testing the water.

I was definitely testing what would happen. I did it while I would be here. If I saw someone vote, I would have immediately unvoted. If Empoof was town (meaning my theory was incorrect), he would have gotten votes. Instead, a stalemate happens.

The situation with the votes forces Empoof myself dichotomy. There's no way around that.

[Titus]

Two possibilities if you're town -

Titus is scum and baiting.
Titus is town and testing the water.

we can't both be town. Leaves 2 red in tweet/papa/nn and they can vote and win the game

We don't get to test waters in a F5 situation

Scum don't. Town can, if you know what you're doing.

[Titus]

we can't both be town. Leaves 2 red in tweet/papa/nn and they can vote and win the game

Ahh, I see what you're saying. Yeah I'll buy this. One of you is scum.

@Titus - but a scum!empoof would benefit from having Arona around at this very moment. The point of leaving him alive would be to win a lylo.

Nah, let's go through it.

I hard scumread Zito and vice versa. Killing there is bad.
Scum killing the passive non-entities doesn't work.
You're widely pushed.
So that leaves Arona, Morning Tweet and Empoof. Empoof is scum. So that's Arona or Morning Tweet. Morning Tweet is a follower.

Arona dies because obvtown.

[Titus]

I was definitely testing what would happen. I did it while I would be here. If I saw someone vote, I would have immediately unvoted. If Empoof was town (meaning my theory was incorrect), he would have gotten votes. Instead, a stalemate happens.

I'm almost convinced. Can you think of a situation where your theory doesn't work?

I would get a null result if you piled on.
Piling on doesn't confirm Empoof as town, it just means he's not confirmed scum.

[Titus]

I was definitely testing what would happen. I did it while I would be here. If I saw someone vote, I would have immediately unvoted. If Empoof was town (meaning my theory was incorrect), he would have gotten votes. Instead, a stalemate happens.

I'm almost convinced. Can you think of a situation where your theory doesn't work?

When mafia have scum chat and can decide exactly when to quick vote

Someone is good at coaching you.

Scum lack daychat.

[Titus]

I would get a null result if you piled on.

Well you currently have as much result as you're going to get.

He's either scum or he isn't.

Your test suggests scum. Why not just lynch him?

That's what I favor at the moment.

[Titus]

I was definitely testing what would happen. I did it while I would be here. If I saw someone vote, I would have immediately unvoted. If Empoof was town (meaning my theory was incorrect), he would have gotten votes. Instead, a stalemate happens.

I'm almost convinced. Can you think of a situation where your theory doesn't work?

When mafia have scum chat and can decide exactly when to quick vote

Someone is good at coaching you.

Scum lack daychat.

General Rules/Game Etiquette

1. This game will start with a Day phase.
   
2. Communication outside the thread (if your role specifically allows it) is allowed until the game begins. It is not permitted otherwise during day phases.

UNVOTE: Titus
Didn't know

Scum do have night chat to coordinate votes however. They can announce when they'll be on and wait back for a hammer.

Why did you unvote if you thought I was mechanically confirmed scum?

[Titus]

It might be. I skipped voting you because I could have been wrong on you.
Empoof was your only viable partner.
Pretty much anyone could coach Empoof to make that attempted tell.

@Morning Tweet, My test proved that Empoof is scum most likely.

[Titus]

Blahhhhhhhh

At least I had Papa as possible town

I do agree the newbies here were excellent. It's not too often a group of newbies can outplay me and y'all did.

I kinda saw something that suggested Empoof was town, but I figured it was coaching if Empoof got into trouble rather than a town tell.

[Titus]

@nn30, I wasn't that close. You were a townread but not dying to protect. If I was wrong on Papa, you being scum went up. Papa having an offgame really threw me a bit I guess.

@Zito, link me please? I second this scumteam getting a trophy.

[Titus]

Well, since I can't put them in the form. I nominated them in the thread.

They really should have an other button.

[Titus]

They are.

You'll see (as you hopefully play more) some players with banners under their names. Those banners are the scummies they won.