Newbie 1502: Thought Blockage (Game Ovs)

[Kalikantzaros]

Hello~

VOTE: tn5421

for being the first to vote.

[Kalikantzaros]

Cinnabar: I am aware that it was a RVS vote, but just like the other two before me, I've given a so-called justification for my own RVS vote. ^^ Plus, it seems as though peoples' reactions during the RVS enable a passage to the actual game. (I didn't really believe this could happen, until I saw it happen in a newbie game I was reading.)

[Kalikantzaros]

I would've suggested timezones, but it seems to have been a day since the game started, so... By the way, I'm sure it doesn't matter, but do you know why you (tn5421) have a small 1 next to your name in the players list? (And would you guys like to hold something like a RQS to at least break the silence?)

[Kalikantzaros]

It means he has a finished game onsite

Ah, okay. Thanks for the explanation.

[Kalikantzaros]

Tn5421: Thanks a lot for the explanation. =3
Nachomamma: Although I don't view the RQS to be particularly useful, do you consider it strange that anyone would want to do it?

[Kalikantzaros]

My avatar is the picture of a character from a video game, and this is the second time people have been reminded of another user with the same avatar. (The first time was in the Newbie Queue.) I had no idea it was so widely used. XD

(By the way, I would like to hear your reasoning once Cinnabar replies, Nachomamma.)

[Kalikantzaros]

You may call me Kali. =3 I'm not sure if Emerald's question is directed at everyone, so I'll answer anyway. I've played two games at a different site, a year ago or so. And I found this one on Google.

After I had read the following post

I see a possible scum motivation in Cinn's post as well, but I don't really care to share it before he answers my question for what should be obvious reasons.

I went to check Cinnabar's posts and at first I thought that she had ignored Emerald's vote and his reason, but after rereading, I found out that the following reply was probably directed at a few people, including Emerald.

Had to look up what in the world RVS means xD
Didn't realize that random voting was a regular thing to do at the beginning! In that case, I vote Nachomamma8 for being the only confirmed player that hasn't posted yet. ^^

If we were right on the hinge of starting a "real-game" discussion when I had suggested the possibility of a RQS and Cinnabar had agreed, I would agree that both of these actions would be scummy and an attempt to mellow out the game. However, at the time I had suggested it, it kind of felt like an awkward silence moment, and not much had changed by the time Cinnabar had replied. Therefore, I personally don't see anything scummy in this at all; however, I would be very interested in hearing your reasoning.

Tn5421: I do think that just attacking people is the only way to get the game going. So what do you think?

[Kalikantzaros]

Hi yeah that guy was me

It's a small world, hm? I've instantly recognized your avatar as well. (I like Liar Game too.)

Wait, is that post supposed to be about me or Xayzeck?

I think it's about Tn.

I don't really want to just start attacking people, but that might be what it takes to get this game going.

I'm still very curious as to what this is about. Since you've said this, you must have something in mind, so would you please explain what post(s)/player(s) you deem attackable, and why?

Addition: With Vettrock's latest post, he is beginning to look scummy to me. His RVS vote is..I mean, an RVS vote, but he makes a comment (possibly a joke?) regarding his RVS vote right after. There have been two comments at Vettrock, one by Xayzeck, who has asked him to make a comment about the game itself, and Emerald has asked a question about the çömment he made right after his RVS vote (which, I admit, has confused me as well), and although both of these questions were before his post #60, he hasn't really bothered to answer the questions, and has instead retracted his vote. His actions so far make me think that he is active-lurking, and although I don't have a lot to go on, he seems the scummiest to me out of all the others who have posted.

[Kalikantzaros]

Actually, what you've just said reminded me that I should do this.

VOTE: Vettrock

[Kalikantzaros]

Ok, so don't answer the questions, but I really don't think that makes me scummy. I haven't played this enough yet I guess to ask intelligent questions, so I don't have something specific yet.

For some reason i read unabltable like untable-table which was contradictory. Yes it was sort of a joke.

Fair enough, but the fact that you've preferred to ignore the questions and post non-game related stuff still makes me think you're the scummiest-acting person yet. This is the point where we should begin to form opinions of eachother, and some material is beginning to form. Of course none of us expect a wall of text or a deep analysis of what's going on, but look, Nachomamma has found something slightly scummy about Cinnabar and hasn't explained why. Xayzeck finds Tn scummy and claims that he's being very jumpy and watchful of others' opinions, so what do you think about that?

By the way, thanks for clearing the joke up. =^w^=

[Kalikantzaros]

I think it is tough to get much of a read at this point. Since the scum know each other, one of thw signs is them ganging up, at this point that would be Nacho and Xay.

I've checked Nacho and Xay's isos, and have been unable to see any interaction between the two, except for post 52 and the part right afterwards, where both ask Emerald for more activity...and frankly, both their comments about Emerald's activity seem quite town-oriented to me.

The other scummy thing you can do is vote for me. While I realize everyone claims to be town, I have to view anyone who is voting for me as potentially scummy. So those are the three that currently havw the FoS from me. I'll wait for more info before making a decision on which is avtually scummy.

That's an interesting way of looking at things. The fact that someone votes for you or not doesn't

really

determine whether they are scum or not - in this game,

everyone

is potential scum, not only those who vote for you. (It's okay if you find me or another player scummy for relevant reasons, but whether they have voted for you or not shouldn't be a measure of their scumminess, at least not in itself.) By the way, why exactly are you waiting for more info to drop onto your lap? What you're planning to do is unhelpful, as you don't participate in the creation of the info you claim to need, and you distance yourself from the others, making you harder to read in general. So to be honest, I find you scummier than before because of what you've just said..

Also, it would be nice if Ultra and Table also posted their own opinions about the ongoing discussions.

[Kalikantzaros]

While voting for me doesn't mean you are scummy, but it does potentially, the assumption being that they will try and lynch the town if possible, rather than voting for the other mafia since they know who the other mafia is. It also could mean you are town and just not guessing correctly.

Nothing is 100% certain regarding the behaviour of scum. Rather than sticking to rigid rules like that (such as "no scum would do this"), I'd recommend that you try to asess the intention behind peoples' posts as well. I have not claimed to be 100% sure that you're scum, but among those who have actually posted, you seem to be the scummiest to me. My thoughts alone will not get you lynched, and there are two people who have posted absolutely *nothing*, so my opinions may of course change in time.

[Kalikantzaros]

It leaves me open for a derphammer.

You've got 2 votes..

Like only 2

It only takes 5. And the game we played together was my first (god that sounds wrong). I could have sworn I had 3 votes on me, though. You're being a lot more straightforward this game, too. I like that.

I was just rereading things, and realised that I've kind of missed this part. The third vote was my random vote, and was removed when I voted Vettrock.

#48 - The third vote on Tn by Xayzeck; Xayzeck states clearly that Tn is L-2.
#56 - Xayzeck's analysis of Tn's behaviour (jumpiness, concern over image).
#63 - Tn's answer to my (and possibly others') question regarding jumping in and attacking; writes that he gets voted either way.
#64 - I change my vote from Tn to Vettrock.
#67 - Xayzeck (to Tn's #63): "Why are you so scared of votes?"
#71 - Tn: "It leaves me open for a derphammer."
(#72 and #77 - Talk regarding Tn's meta.)
#79 - Xayzeck (to Tn's #71): "You've got 2 votes.. Like only 2"

So considering the fact that Xayzeck was aware that Tn was L-2, and the fact that most of Tn's reaction was prior to my vote change, Xayzeck's justification of Tn's jumpiness by saying that he has only 2 votes looks like he's trying to take advantage of the situation and warp others' perception of Tn, and seems kind of scummy to me. More so than Vettrock's persistent active lurking.

VOTE: Xayzeck

[Kalikantzaros]

lol

So you're saying that I put him at L-2, called him jumpy on his reactions when at L-2, but after you unvoted, played it off as him being jumpy with only 2 votes, and that I'm trying to warp tn into being jumpy scum. Right?

Here's the problem

I vote him in 48

I call him jumpy and awkward in 56

Therefore my jumpy and awkward read on her is prior to him being put at L-2, and I did not call her jumpy while being at L-2.

And being scared of a derphammer when you had 2-3 votes to go? Town don't need to be scared, town need to find scum

And frankly, even though I thought you were town, I'm not liking this weak tn defence you have right now

Your defence has convinced me that I was mistaken and have warped your posts, kind of.

UNVOTE: Xayzeck

However, I'd like to let you know that what I wrote was by no means intended to defend Tn, who I'm currently reading as null; it was an attack on you, because I really did believe I saw what I've already posted. And neither your, nor Tn's attacks on one another seem to have a solid foundation; you're both trying to use the meta from a single game, which I don't really think will get you anywhere. It is also noteworthy, however, that while you also interact with others and ask questions, Tn seems to be very concentrated on his defence/offence against you.

[Kalikantzaros]

(On an out-of-topic note, I thought Nacho's avatar was Vincent Valentine.)

And I think I agree with most of the things Nacho has said during this 3-page jump.

nah my read on tn isn't just meta comparison, it's just that he was awkward in the beginning and a little jumpy, the only meta is that he's been playing for a while now, and I think he should have a good enough grip on the game to have a good start as town, and not be so weird jumping into a game

Actually, considering the fact that no one else besides you (as far as I can remember) found Tn's initial reactions suspiciously jumpy, it does seem to me as though the jumpiness argument was based on his behaviour in your previous game together.

kalikantzaros, what do you think about 93 from table?

It is *pretty much* empty, except for his Tn read. If he is persistent in this kind of post, I will probably end up finding him as scummy as Vettrock. (However, this is probably a gut feeling and therefore of no significance, but it somehow seems to me as though Theunabletable is trying to be kind of helpful, whereas Vettrock is stubbornly resisting giving any reads or any information at all.)

There isn't anyone else suspicious to vote, Xayzeck. If people try to derplynch you I'll remove my vote.

If you consider the matter to be so, why don't you ask more questions to those who seem null to you? Surely there are many posts that are unsatisfying in their content? It's important to observe others' reactions. (Of course, I should also take this advice myself..)
---
Regarding Theunabletable's 167: I actually think this is a significant improvement. However, I'd like to point out that no one is ever sure about a scum-read or a town-read unless the person is dies or is otherwise confirmed. You shouldn't be afraid of voicing your reads. Since you've made two different scales regarding the probability of scumness, might I suggest that you produce a visual scale from town to scum, and place all the players in it? Also, on a similar note to Emerald's question, could you detail your read on Vettrock?

My most scummy reads I think then are unabletable and TN. I not sure if they are scummy, they may just be aggressive and trying to draw something out, but as they are currently pointing towards me, it leads me to at least consider that they may have scummy motives for doings so.

What about the other players? Can you write your reads about each of them? Can you give examples (you know, textual) as to why you think Theunabletable and Tn are scummy?
(I'm voting you again, because I was kind of expecting you to actually post something. Since this post is as anti-town-oriented as ever, and may at best confuse other town from finding the actual scum, I find you as scummy as ever, if not more.)
VOTE: Vettrock

One last reason why I'm weary about stating any minor suspicions about anyone else is that my opinion changes often. Very small comments can change my view of a person. I'm more comfortable with Vettrock now, seeing his most recent post, that indicates that he seems fairly consistent in what he does.

If your opinion changes often, I think it's okay to express it by posting the relevant comment and then explain why you've changed your mind. It's possible that you're actually very observant, and one of your observations might help. No one has accused me (...yet...) for my accusation of Xayzeck and my unvote after his defence. Although, I would like to point out that consistency might not always indicate townness.

I certainly want to lynch scum on D1, I'm not convinced it is likely though.

The chances of lynching scum D1 is 2/9. So a bit less than 25%. But even on D1, lynches aren't random - it's the scummiest player that is usually lynched, and even when the D1 lynch flips town, its wagon and the lynched person's D1 interactions might give clues. (Frankly, I don't know how to do a "post-mortem analysis", but I've read that it can be done.)

---
I really don't like that Ultra posted so much about statistics, but hasn't actually bothered to analyze anything that is actually game-related.

Regarding my read on Vettrock: Xayzeck at one point had said that Vettrock could be newbtown. While I still have that possibility in mind, my expectation of a newbtown is someone who's trying to learn, and possibly emulates those around him. As Theunabletable has stated, Vettrock's approach is extremely static and stable, when someone trying to learn changes (one might give Theunabletable's posts as an example - I do see an improvement). This makes me think that Vettrock is scum, and knowing who all the town are, can't feign to scumhunt, and thus is only able to turn against those who find him scummy. And I'm not sure if my impression or read regarding Vettrock will change in the future.

[Kalikantzaros]

I don't know why you keep assuming so, I've already explained my read on him very clearly, and that it's not based on the game we had together.

Okay, I'll stop saying that. It doesn't really matter (for me), since it doesn't change my read on you at all, and since I don't really agree with your case against Tn either way.

What if vett is just scared to scumhunt because he doesn't like being called a newb, or he doesn't want his reads, which are most likely going to be a little derp, to be put down by the other players, who have more confidence in reading?

It could still be newbtown waiting for something to jump on, like an obv scum tell, but not quite sure what they look like

Well, he

has

been called newb by you for his behaviour before, and that didn't instigate a change, did it? If he disliked being called a newb so much, he would've already changed his newbtown-scum hybrid of a behaviour. Plus, I don't think any of the players have so far rudely rejected others' ideas..? (Or I may be missing something, but..I don't remember anyone expressing an opinion being treated harshly or rudely.) I'm not rejecting the possibilities you've expressed entirely, but he is unresponsive and unwilling to adapt to the game, which makes me doubt what you're saying. If he wanted to learn, he would've asked; that's what ICs are for. I don't think there's anything that can redeem him for me besides a cop investigation on him.

Ultra, if you have time to post about theory, could you please also post about actual in-game stuff?

[Kalikantzaros]

What do you want to hear from me?

Your reads, of course. Which players do you find the scummiest, and why? What do you think about the things going on, such as the matter between Xayzeck and Tn, or the votes on Vettrock? Anything said so far that you find strange or worthy of being pointed out? Those kinds of things.

[Kalikantzaros]

Welcome, Reinoe.

While I disagree with the assessment, I guess I can understand why you have that assessment. I am a new player, and I am trying to get a read and learn what I can from the other players. Some people are much better at pulling bits of information from what other write than I am. Since I know I am town (and yes I realize scum in going to say that) I have to look at least a little suspiciously at those accusing me. It is certainly possible they are town, but scum is most likely to rally support to lynch town. This is way I say the important part of day 1 is observations that will be more telling once the results are in and Day 2 starts. In any game where the town lynches scum successfully on D1, either the mafia didn't know what they were doing and gave too many obvious tells, or the town just go lucky. 2/9 is not great odds assuming all is random. The more information that is available, the better these odds get, but of course the scum is going to be spreading mis-information as well. If you think this approach sound scummy to you, I can just say that I think you are mistaken.

And I think I've already told you that the D1 lynch isn't random at all; we are given 2 weeks to try to understand those around us. It isn't only your "OMGUS"-like behaviour that I find scummy (in fact, that's probably the least of them..) To entirely summarize what I've already stated at least twice:
- I don't think any of us - perhaps except for Nacho - claim to expertly pull bits of information from comments. We're all here to learn.
- The more questions you ask and the more you interact with others, the more you information you create. You have been urged *several* times and are still reluctant to do so.
- You don't seem to have any opinions about anyone besides those voting on you, which I do find strange.
- When all of these behaviours are combined, there is no way that these behaviours could benefit town. It looks like you're trying to render yourself as neutral and as invisible as possible. Therefore, I find you scummy.

(And seriously, if you are actually town and have questions about how to play, you should ask them. It is the IC's - Nacho's - job to answer your questions, and I'm sure that the others will also be glad to help.)

ultra has a cat avatar and seems to be playing it safe. Using numberwang to try and deduce odds of town is weird but whatever floats your boat. I personally don't like it.

Agreed, although what I find more disturbing is that he hasn't talked about anything but statistics; it

kind of

looked to me as though he was trying not to contribute to the game itself while still seeming to be active and engaged.

@kalikantzaros: do you have mafia experience? If so where?

I've played two games offsite. I can't acutally remember the name of the site, but it was based on a manga I had read.. A serial killer acting normal among a group of friends, and then secretly putting on a bunny costume and killing them one by one. I've also read two games on Mafiascum (one newbie game and one mini-theme game).

@ Reinoe: What do you think about Xayzeck? He's also a pretty strong figure in the game, I think.

I don't have time right now, I have to get to bed in like 2 minutes, so I'll give that visual scale and the best detail on Vettrock I can tomorrow or the next day when I can c:

^^; You don't

have

to do a visual scale; it was more of a suggestion (since it might be helpful to do one instead of two separate scales?); if you like the idea, you could use it in the future. But I still would like to hear your thoughts about Vettrock.

---

My reads so far are thus:

Nacho: Asks a lot of questions and tests others' reactions. His scumhunting seems effective to me, so I think he's town. (However, since he's one of the most experienced among us, he would probably be the best to disguise himself, if he were scum.)

Emerald: Concise and to the point, but seems to make good observations and asks questions as well. Lean town.

Xayzeck: He seemed null to me so far, but upon reviewing his posts, I'm leaning towards town. He is very active, helped in the transition from RVS to the actual game with his accusations of Tn (although I still don't really agree with him in that matter). And although this is more of a gut feeling, I feel as though he would've jumped on me regarding posts #95 and #114. And at the moment, his stance towards Vettrock makes me think that he's really trying to be helpful. (My opinions on the matter may change if Vettrock flips scum.)

Reinoe: Cinnabar left without contributing at all, but her actions were townish null to me. I find myself agreeing to most of Reinoe's comments, and his post in general makes his stance clear (and there are also a few questions asked in order to understand the other players better), so while it's a bit early, he seems town to me.

Theunabletable: Seems to be making an effort in contributing, therefore seems townish to me. However, I will need more time to feel secure about this read, which is pretty uncertain at the moment.

Tn: Null, even though he's been quite active. I've skimmed through his ISO once, but I think I'll have to reread it again soon.

Ultra: Null, due to lack of activity. Possibly scum trying to fly under the radar? (Not much indication either way.)

Vettrock: Scummy. (My read has been explained previously, so I won't repeat it.)

[Kalikantzaros]

nuuu, the kitty doesn't like me >~<

XD The kitty does like you, but won't let her feelings get in the way.

[Kalikantzaros]

Gotta say bye to everyone, can't play anymore. It just feels that I don't have anything to say. So hopefully I will get replaced with someone more active by our game mod.
So yeah, sorry for not posting. Have fun!

=/ I'm sorry if I was being rude to you in any way.. Perhaps reading one or two finished games might help you develop a sense of the game..?

everyone else is kinda null, I've got vett as nulltown but Kali seems to be pretty convinced on vettscum, so I'm not sure. He gives me townvibes but it could be his style or something, I'll wait for more on the slot to get a firmer read

I still think there's the possibility that you might be right about this, and it confuses me too. The best thing to do, I suppose, is to question and observe.

While tn is also voting for me, I see reinoe and Kali jumping on the train, which I see as much more scummy.

I was the one to first vote for you, Vettrock. I voted you in post #64, Tn voted in post #151 (I think), and I only removed my vote on you because I thought for a moment that Xayzeck was scummier than you. I most certainly did not jump on any train; I started it myself.

Xayzeck is next on the list. He seems to be watching and subtly advocating that I am scum, so he doesn't look as supicous, but can point back to these instances as his reason for jumping on the train.

In fact, at no point did Xayzeck advocate or suggest that you were scum. He has been reading you as newbtown and has expressed this view several times. (Posts #83 and #179. In #195 he states that he himself gets nulltown vibes from you.)

Also of note about Xayzeck, he was the second voter for TN. Second and third voters are often scum trying to start a train.

Xayzeck was the third, but it isn't that important. What you say might be true, but the first vote on Tn, which was mine, was a random vote. I'm not sure what Nacho's vote actually is, but Xayzeck was certainly the first person to accuse Tn of scumminess; the "wagon" before that wasn't really a wagon.

The secobd is the same concept where I said second and third voters are more likely to be scum, getting on the second train instead of the first looks a little less suspious, so it is something I would expect from scum.

How is it less suspicious to jump on the second wagon as opposed to the first?

One thing that has kind of muddled up my Vettrock read is his view of Xayzeck. If he were scum with a growing wagon on him, would he so easily be able to accuse someone who has been approaching with the most positive light among all of us?

[Kalikantzaros]

Upon further review, I'll pull back on my assessment of Xayzeck. I'm not convinced he is clean, but I think he is just being cautious rather than trying to hold back, and then deliver the hammer once someone has enough votes. I am moving him to neutral.

I was incorrect in the voting order for Kali, so I'll pull that back as well, as the first vote was a neutral RVS type vote.

I am keeping my vote on Reinoe, as he seems most intent on pushing the train along to lynch me. While his initial reason was that I wasn't posting enough content, while I can understand that it was to prod me a bit, saying I didn't have enough content. I didn't have much content, as I didn't have as much information to go on as I do now. Hopefully I've satisfied your content portion of it.

Also regarding TN, as he is the other one with votes. after re-reading, I',m going to say leaning a little towards scum, but still closer to neutral. He was second vote as described by me before, but I don't think that is enough to call him scum at this point. We will see how it plays out.

I'm sorry if I've worded it wrong. Just to make things clear, my first vote - my random vote - was for Tn; I was then the first person to vote you, but intentionally (as opposed to random). ^^;

In your previous post (#207), you said that Reinoe's vote on your wagon, which was the second wagon to form, made him look more suspicious to you. I'm curious as to why you think so - the second and third votes are kind of understandable, but why do you have such a thought about wagons? If the second wagon to form wasn't your own but someone else's, would you still find Reinoe scummy based on the same premises?

(By the way, I think your posts are a lot better in terms of content than before.)

[Kalikantzaros]

212 - I agree with Theunabletable's point on Vettrock's egocentrism. The post itself is very unbiased, and is therefore a very good evaluation of the possibilities. And if Vettrock is lynched and flips town, I do agree that there must be at least one scum among the voters.

The very, very easy response, if Vettrock is actually innocent, is that both you and Tn are scum. One shot, it's all explained. Tn's behavior, and his quickness to accuse people and try and start bandwagons (xayzeck and vettrock)

I am also quick to accuse. I mean, considering my own posts, I might be even quicker to accuse. What makes this scummy in Tn and not (so scummy) in me?

I usually find waffling, being indecisive, not having any willingness to push any scumreads as one of the strongest scumtells in this game because the hardest part of playing scum is selling something that is completely, blatantly false and somehow doing so in a way that's passionate, believable, and readable.

Hmm, and you don't think Vettrock's early behaviour fits this description?
222 - I find Nacho's observation regarding the Vettrock - Ultra parallelism quite interesting, as I hadn't noticed it before. (I don't know if they'd be scumpartners, but I do find Nacho's suspicion of Ultra to be logical.)

(To Tn) I never said that you are associated: table did. I ask you why you're so concerned about the connection being made in the first place because it's generally not a normal thing to react so strongly when you're accused of being scum with someone.

Do you think the following is an overreaction? (I personally only see confusion in it.)

Someone tell me how I'm associated with reinoe, please, when I've all but blatantly been buddying kalik.

--
233 - I actually like Theunabletable's idea. I remember some people asking questions about it the first time, but I don't remember if Theunabletable responded, so I'll write my view on this anyway. By writing our thoughts on Ultra but not sharing them until the replacement gives us their read of the whole game, we'll not have influenced the replacement's behaviour, which would give us a healthier read, while still keeping our previous opinions on the record. Then we can share our reads on both Ultra and the replacement.

I understand that when you voted for me, it was the first vote TN had changed his random vote, and your vote was for a reason, to me it seem still like a fishing vote, slightly above random, whereas reinoe's vote seem intent on pushing the train forward.

Yes, my vote on you did have reason. I did want to be able to get a reaction, or push you into creating more content, but I probably would not have voted you if I did not find your behaviour scummy.
By the way, I'm *very* surprised that you read me as town, when I'm also one of those who has a vote on you. ^^;

I dunno whether that's scummy or not, encouraging discussion, then stifling it with passive aggression and hostility when it goes in a direction he doesn't like. I can't rule out that he's just an asshole. Regardless, he doesn't seem up to an honest discourse without toxicity. I extended a hand to try and calm the situation down, and it appears to be a lost cause. You guys can try to discuss stuff with him if he'll let you; I'm gonna watch and lurk for a bit, and see where it goes with other people trying to produce content.

At one of the games I read, there was a town who kept swearing and insulting everyone, so it might not really be a scumtell and rather have to do with personality. I personally find your later posts to be very interesting and usually insightful, so I think it might be better if you don't lurk. <.< We have less than a week before the deadline, so we should make use of that time as best as we can.

Can you and your scumpartner at least coordinate your false accusations a little better in the future? Pick a person you're going to accuse me of buddying and stick to it at least.

Are you referring to Vettrock when you say "scumpartner"?

The only person in this thread that I consider my buddy is Kalik, my strongest townread.

Ehm, thanks, I guess? I should either be very flattered, or suspect that you're setting me up as the next person to be lynched if you flip scum. I'm not sure which I should be doing. >.> A bit of both, I guess?

--

I've been thinking about the Reinoe - Tn theory. While I do agree with Theunabletable that the possibility of Tn being scum increases if Reinoe flips scum, I don't think that the odds increase as much as Theunabletable seems to think. (And Tn's reaction to the whole connection thing makes me think that he really has no relationship with Reinoe.)
Reinoe, did you have any reason besides his random vote explanation to find Tn scummy?

[Kalikantzaros]

Note- This post was written over a longish period of time, so my thoughts have gradually changed, and I was too lazy to edit them. I'm sorry for the sloppiness, but it's getting late and I'm tired.

Answer to posts 256 and 258 regarding Tn's behaviour - Tn's reactions in general seem emotional to me, and he displays this characteristic in at least three instances, if not more. Both Xayzeck and Reinoe argue that his reaction about the questioning of his RVS vote was over the top, he was angry at Xayzeck for calling him a "she", and is said to have overreacted at the Reinoe - Tn idea.
- Either Tn is town and he really does this regularly. I would be more inclined to think this way. *However*..
- If Tn is scum, the fact that he has declared that he is buddying me three times might make more sense, as he might be doing this in order to associate himself with me in order to protect his partner. On the other hand, it really is so blatant that I'm wondering if scum would go through all the trouble to do something so attention-grabbing. Isn't buddying usually viewed negatively?

I most certainly do.
But the town behavior in his later behavior comes across a bit more clearly than the initial scum motivation did.

Yes, and his latest posts show that he's actively trying to learn how to identify scum. I am, however, not ready to remove my vote just yet.

176 - just because you voted for vettrock earlier doesn't mean you're not scum taking advantage of a gathering wagon against vettrock.

I don't think I've at any point said that. There was *a lot* of mix up in the chronology of Vettrock's post, and I wanted to make corrections. If, for instance, Vettrock was lynched and he flipped town, as the first voter, I'd probably end up looking like scum turning others onto a newbtown who really didn't know how to play. I don't think me being the first to vote him is alignment indicative at all, but it is a fact, and it's better that the chronology be known as it is, if someone knows how to make sense of it.
(Later addition: Chronological mistakes also lead to comments such as this: "Tn's behavior, and his quickness to accuse people and try and start bandwagons (xayzeck and vettrock)..." (Theunabletable, #212) which is partially true about Xayzeck, but not at all true about Vettrock, as his was the second vote.

202 - This kinda torpedoes my vettrock / Xayzeck scumteam. Would flailing scum really bus a teammate who was trying to townread him?

I've been pondering about the same incident. Do you (anyone who is willing to answer) think that if Vettrock were scum and Xayzeck were town, Vettrock would bus or distance Xayzeck, who was of the opinion that Vettrock was newbtown? I keep answering the question as "no", and this could actually be a serious towntell for Vettrock, and although his later behaviour looks pretty town to me, I can't bring myself to change my vote on him (until someone I find scummier comes by), because of something akin to a gut feeling that is left over from my previously very strong (and in my opinion, well-justified at the time) suspicion of him.

His ridiculous attempts to try and claim I am buddying tn after I called tn scum meant he's not actually reading the thread despite his wall of texts.

But he didn't actually accuse you of buddying him. You asked Vettrock why you hadn't joined the Tn bandwagon, and he said that one of the most viable possibilities (if Vettrock was town), was that you and Tn were scumbuddies. Your behaviour or reads on Tn have nothing to do with the calculation of these possibilities. The connection he was talking about had nothing to do with being friendly to eachother. I find it interesting that despite apparently having read Tn's post more than once, you still think that he's saying that you're buddying Tn. (And my own answer to your question to Emerald is that, if you had joined the Tn wagon and Tn were innocent, that could mean that you and Vettrock were scumpartners.)

Having re-read Theunabletable's posts and having seen how he has repeated the hypothetical natüre of this argument, I'm of the view that Reinoe is overreacting. (I'm considering the whole argument about requesting clarification with Theunabletable as out-of-game and separate.)

I've been accused of being your partner AND tn's partner by various parties. I can't what to see what mindblowing insight unabletable and vettrock will drop on us next.

Can you and your scumpartner at least coordinate your false accusations a little better in the future? Pick a person you're going to accuse me of buddying and stick to it at least.

His ridiculous attempts to try and claim I am buddying tn after I called tn scum meant he's not actually reading the thread despite his wall of texts.

Also you didn't answer my question about what do you think about unabletable's claim I'm buddying tn.
Ok, he doesn't use "buddying", he uses the word "connected", but the implication is still there.

If I'm wrong about Vettrock, then Tn and Reinoe, for being connected like they are, are inherently the most suspicious, with Kali following somewhere behind.

These things Reinoe has said make it look as though Theunabletable was acting very sure of himself, or making actual (and aggressive) accusations against Reinoe without taking into account any of the prerequisites for such a situation to be a solid possibility. This looks to me like an active attempt to twist Theunabletable's posts, because of the following give me the opposite impression of how Reinoe has been describing things:

The very, very easy response, if Vettrock is actually innocent, is that both you and Tn are scum. One shot, it's all explained. Tn's behavior, and his quickness to accuse people and try and start bandwagons (xayzeck and vettrock), as well as why reinoe would jump on the vettrock bandwagon and be suspicious of him, but not draw attention to Tn. Now I don't know what the probability of this situation is. In my mind, it's less likely than vettrock just plain being guilty, but it is not a good response to Vettrock's concerns.

The whole of post #213

You're not connected to him in so much as his post (#204) connects him a tad to you, under the assumption of quite a few qualifiers being true. Does that make sense?

(The previous quote being Theunabletable's response to Tn.)

I know what I said at the beginning of this post, but a lot of time has passed since then, and I'm beginning to reconsider things.

UNVOTE: Vettrock

[Kalikantzaros]

Nacho is town right now

But Nacho will do a 180 flip and turn up to be my strongest scumread should he make it to lylo, and I will proceed to tunnel on him, only to be maliciously manipulated into hammering wrong, and losing the game for town

aka, always lynch Nacho in lylo. Scum would never keep Nacho in lylo, because they'd get rekt

I agree with this, but I don't think this was a good idea to make public until Nacho actually survived until lylo.

[Kalikantzaros]

Kali's posts are good, and he seems to usually help. He's connected to Tn through no fault of his own (although for reasons that I agree with Tn about,) and connected to Reinoe and Vettrock in a way similar to emerald.

My initial read on Reinoe was town, however as of #269, I'm indecisive between Vettrock and Reinoe. (I find it strange how certain and aggressive he made your argument look, when it was in truth very tentative, and I interpreted it as either as an attempt to make you look scummy [although, now that I've re-read his posts, I'm beginning to think that it isn't the former but the latter case], or just an overreaction, both of which in this case seem scummy to me.)

I will probably write something this evening regarding Vettrock's latest posts and stuff.

(Reinoe, thanks for the Wiki link; it really is pretty good~)

And welcome, Aloke.

[Kalikantzaros]

This is not intended as a defence of anyone; I personally

think

I see a difference, but I am unsure of myself, and I am very interested in others' thought processes regarding the matter.

To those of you who found Tn's early posts about his random vote etc. scummy, what are your opinions of Reinoe? I don't mean the outburst, but rather his initial attitude towards Theunabletable's hypothesis. If you find Tn scummier, could you please provide your reasons?

From today until the 19th, I will be staying at my boyfriend's house, and the frequency of my posts will be reduced to once a day, and will probably not be very lengthy.

[Kalikantzaros]

I'm a she, by the way. =^w^=

I'm not sure if my posts are invisible, since no one seems to be reacting to the short ones. Does no one who finds Reinoe town and Tn scum (based on overreaction) have anything to say? (I don't have time to check right now, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but Vettrock, you find Tn scummier than Reinoe, I believe? Why is that so?)

Isn't it irregular that Reinoe lashed out at Theunabletable for his hypothesis and did not say anything, **anything** at all to my thoughts about him? Since no one is bothering to react, and will instead talk about..I don't know..NobodySpecial or the number of games they are/they'd rather not be playing, I'll go on and put forth my opinion: I think that Tn's reactions have been pretty consistent since the beginning of the game (while this does not make him town, it does decrease his potential scumminess in my eyes), meanwhile Reinoe starts out as nice and town, quite harshly attacks (and misrepresents) Theunabletable for only a hypothesis, and then **completely** ignores the posts of someone calling him scummy.

VOTE: Reinoe

[Kalikantzaros]

I'm sorry, I currently don't have time to look through things carefully, so I'm sorry for the not-so-good post. =w=

read 267 again kali. It's a timeline of activity and I think it highlights quite well why I flipped out at unabletable.

Except, I've been repeatedly saying that I'm excluding the part where you flipped off due to your business and Theunabletable not having noticed it.

ILF's 357 - The way she tries to explain her thoughts (and I guess her later activity) gives me a town read of her.

The reaction you're referring to is 247, correct? /quote]

No, I meant 250, 253, and especially the parts in 264 and 266 where he talks about Theunabletable. I think I remember why you thought Tn was scummy, but I also thought there were others who found Tn's initial reaction to be exaggerated, and considered Reinoe to be town. (In fact, I thought Vettrock might be one of them, but I'm pressed for time and can't check, so there's a high likelihood that I'm mistaken.)

Reinoe's 393 - I first said I found you scummy due to your reactions to Tn's hypothesis. (Not his request that you answer his question.) And then, my second reason was that you've raged at something a lot subtler/hypothetical/etc. than my accusation, and then didn't react at all when I did accuse you.

Vettock! What are your opinions of all that's been going on? What are your current reads, and why?

[Kalikantzaros]

UNVOTE: Loofah

If ILF is correct about Emerald, I do agree with her. However, there's the matter of whether Emerald actually noticed that the deadline was extended. And the fact that he has at least twice said that he finds Reinoe scummier than Tn, and that he's only on the Tn wagon due to the time constraint makes me think that either he's Reinoe/Loofah's scumpartner and is trying to appear town by pointing out his partner's weakness, while still contributing in the lynch of a town, or is actually innocent. I am inclined towards the latter possibility. However, as Reinoe has replaced out and it seems that people want to keep that slot...if Emerald is lynched and flips scum, I think that pretty much clears Tn and ILF up, and the suspicion regarding the Reinoe/Loofah slot remains. If Emerald flips town, I would be very, *very* suspicious of ILF, as I don't even exactly agree that it's a direct scumtell.

I personally don't think the replace-out by Reinoe was alignment indicative, and thus agree with ILF on that point.

While I would've preferred a Reinoe/Loofah slot lynch, I discovered that there might be more to learn from an Emerald lynch while writing my first paragraph, so it might not be as bad as I had initially thought.

[Kalikantzaros]

If Emerald comes up scum and I get flak for it, so be it. I still think he's our best lynch right now.

Emerald flipping scum clears you in my opinion. The opposite would make me suspicious for previously mentioned reasons.

Theunabletable: I also kind of feel like you. At this point, it might be good to assess what kinds of information we might extract from this lynch, depending on the flip. And for that, it might be good to analyze peoples' stances towards Emerald. I've already put forward my own hypothesis of possible scenarios, but I somehow think you might come up with different angles.

[Kalikantzaros]

If Emerald comes up scum and I get flak for it, so be it. I still think he's our best lynch right now.

Emerald flipping scum clears you in my opinion. The opposite would make me suspicious for previously mentioned reasons.

Theunabletable: I also kind of feel like you. At this point, it might be good to assess what kinds of information we might extract from this lynch, depending on the flip. And for that, it might be good to analyze peoples' stances towards Emerald. I've already put forward my own hypothesis of possible scenarios, but I somehow think you might come up with different angles.

[Kalikantzaros]

Ehm, sorry for the doublepost. ^^;;

Sorry I haven't added much yet! I'm not sure who to vote for but I don't think it's ILF because as people keep mentioning, she posts a lot and it's all very reasonable. But unlike the majority, I also really don't think it's emerald, after his most recent post. If the reason for his posting so little really was scummy I just don't think he would have faked such a profuse apology.

But you appear to have read the thread, so who would you prefer to lynch instead of Emerald? Which players do you find the scummiest among our group and why? Even if you don't have very strong reads, there must be players you're suspicious of, and others you're not so suspicious of (such as ILF); could you possibly list them and give us reasons as to why you think that way?

(By the way, I also believe what Emerald says.)

[Kalikantzaros]

Loofah: I find it interesting that you consider Nacho and Vettrock to be similar. Not that I consider it scummy, but in my eyes they're kind of like polar opposites.

In a way, emerald seems like one of the least useful lynches, because he hasn't been active lately, and isn't really connected to anyone. A loofah, Vettrock, or Tn lynch may provide more information, whereas with Emerald, it seems like if he pops up innocent, we just kind of throw our hands up, and wait for the night kill for information, you know?

I personally think that the bandwagon built up so quickly and with such a shaky reason, that I do think it's bound to give us information.

62 & 64 - First non RVS vote, on Vettrock, for unvoting his RVS.

Nope. Not for unvoting his RVS; for active lurking, which I consider scummy. He had already been asked questions, and he posted non-game related stuff after the questions instead of addressing them.

310 - Wow wasn't expecting this: "This is not intended as a defence of anyone... To those of you who found Tn's early posts about his random vote etc. scummy, what are your opinions of Reinoe? If you find Tn scummier, could you please provide your reasons?" She doesn't want to seem like she's defending Tn, but she definitely wants to defend tn.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating things, but I thought this was pretty clear by now. No, this really was a serious question on my part. I'm not sure if I at any point explained this (because I was afraid of affecting Reinoe's behaviour at the time), but because Tn had several of what people considered to be "outbursts" or "overreactions", I viewed these to be part of his playstyle stemming from his personality. I considered his reactions to be cosistent, and while this did not make him town in my eyes, they did not at any point seem particularly scummy to me, and I couldn't understand why others would see it so. (I've been confused about his alignment for most of the game.) On the other hand, I thought Reinoe's version of Theunabletable's behaviour and then his lack of reaction towards me to be noteworthy, since my accusation was a stronger one than his, and I would've expected those who had called Tn out for some of his behaviour early game to also call out Reinoe for a reaction which seemed **much** scummier than Tn's.

424 - Blar, maybe I am getting tunnel vision now, but it makes perfect sense to me for scum Kalik to say "If emerald flips town I would be very, *very* suspicious of ILF" since that 1) sets up a possible mislynch and 2) directs attention away from the Tn5421 vote.

Yes, I do think this is tunnel vision. Of course it's WIFOM, and I have no way of proving anything, but I said that because I believe it to be so. ILF's reason for calling you scummy was flimsy, and I *do* find it suspicious. Would you rather have me look at the rest of the bandwagon as well? I will, if you flip town. But remember that I've also talked about the implications of you flipping scum, so it's more that I'm trying to make the best of what is going on here and trying to come up with ways we can try to derive information from what I don't think is a good lynch. As for Tn's vote, there's nothing I can say about that; I only really noticed it was before my post when you pointed it out.

And you really don't have to answer this, since I don't consider it to be game-related at all, but how would you have reacted if someone kept saying they were buddying you? Wouldn't you have similar suspicions, or is it only wrong to voice them?

--

I can't really do anything about the feeling of artificialness some people are getting from my posts. Perhaps it's because I'm not a native English speaker?

And for the gender thing. I don't really mind, I guess. <.< I was curious as to how people would consider me if I excluded it completely, and it appears that I sound masculine. ô.ô

--

If you guys are willing to lynch the Reinoe/Loofah slot, I'd gladly join.

[Kalikantzaros]

255:

By writing our thoughts

What?

Has Kalik referred to herself in the plural sense in any other post?

I'm confused about this. Why is this brought up at all? I was talking about Theunabletable's plan about the Ultra slot reads, so the "our" there was referring to *all* of the players.

Here's the full paragraph:

233 - I actually like Theunabletable's idea. I remember some people asking questions about it the first time, but I don't remember if Theunabletable responded, so I'll write my view on this anyway. By writing our thoughts on Ultra but not sharing them until the replacement gives us their read of the whole game, we'll not have influenced the replacement's behaviour, which would give us a healthier read, while still keeping our previous opinions on the record. Then we can share our reads on both Ultra and the replacement.

[Kalikantzaros]

My apprehension with agreeing with his conclusions is that, at the moment, he accused my other strongest townread other than Xayzeck. Honestly, though, Kali's last post looks more opportunistic than any of her others, all off a read that I'm not convinced is justified.

If you're talking about the Reinoe slot read, how is that opportunistic? If you're talking about my Emerald read, I've already stated *several* times that I think he's town, so.. <.<

Vettrock: Very well. >=3 Until my next game, I shall be a she.

[Kalikantzaros]

What's the difference between the Tn bandwagon, and the emerald bandwagon in your mind? Why vote for one, but not the other?

I haven't voted for either at all, except for my random vote on Tn at the beginning of the game. Please feel free to check my iso. (You may access it at the very bottom of the page, at the post filter section.) The Tn bandwagon began with Xayzeck finding his initial reaction scummy (to which Vettrock later agreed), and Nacho found Tn's reaction towards Xayzeck scummy. The fact that his behaviour was difficult to read (I could never be sure if he was actually trying to scumhunt) must've also contributed. In a way, I think the voters had various factors in mind when they voted (the views weren't unanimous, I think) and it didn't grow as fast as the Emerald wagon. It was probably more organic or natural..?

The Emerald wagon, on the other hand, began from a single point and then kind of expanded - some said he was inactive (which is true) and that he didn't scumhunt (which I didn't agree with), and some didn't give a reason (Tn), and some joined just to be able to get a D1 lynch (Xayzeck and Vettrock). It accumulated very fast, partially due to the time constraint. I'm kind of glad it's beginning to unravel.

I find it likely that both wagons must've had (at least) one scum on them (unless Tn is scum, in which case I'm not so sure about his wagon), not neccessarily the same one. While I didn't really agree with the reasons people put forth for finding Tn particularly scummy, I'd say that his wagon is less suspicious than the Emerald wagon. I'm not sure if this satisfies your question, please ask more if there's a specific angle I've missed.

What's your view of Emerald, Vettrock, and Tn?

I think Emerald is town. He isn't my top town read, but he has seemed town to me since the beginning of the game, because despite the very short and sparse posts, I think he makes good, or at least..thought-provoking points in them, which seems town to me. (If there's a specific issue you'd like to have me address, please ask.)

While I don't think Vettrock would be a good D1 lynch, as I still have worries that he's newbtown, but after the Reinoe slot, I guess he's be my second preferred lynch, mainly due to his initial behaviour; the fact that he's in the middle or in the end of the flock's behaviour (regarding the D1 lynch) makes me a bit uncomfortable. I'm realizing that I haven't read his posts well enough.
Tn was null to me, but I actually do find the pre-lynch thing convincing. It is mostly that, however, that makes me think he's town - I still find his playstyle fairly confusing. (I'm sorry for the unsatisfactory answer..=w= )

@Vettrock:

- Why don't you think Loofah shouldn't be lynched?
- You found me town in #414 and you've obviously changed your mind, and that's okay. Would you mind explaining why? If it's Emerald's post that has convinced you, *which* points did you actually find convincing, and why?

@ Emerald's 471 -

Well, I'll try to play this way when I'm *actually* given a scum role, then. =w=

Kali's last post saying she thinks emerald is town but is still voting for his somewhat suspicous, so I'll say I am willing to support a wagon for Kali.

I'm not voting Emerald, I never voted Emerald, please check my iso.

[Kalikantzaros]

It's *really* late here, so I should go to bed. I will certainly post in the morning, in about 6 or 7 hours. Good night/day to you all.

[Kalikantzaros]

Congratulations, Town~ =^w^= (By the way, I don't mind your lengthy posts at all, Theunabletable.)

[Kalikantzaros]

Xayzeck, remember when you said you'd suspect Nacho if he survived until D3/LyLo? I completely agreed with you on that point, but I don't think it's a good idea to share it, because it could also be like giving scum tactics to set up a mislynch (if Nacho were town). So in that kind of situation, I think it may have been better to state that opinion during the actual LyLo so that the behaviour of the scum wouldn't have been modified by your post. And saying that early could kind of make you seem like scum trying to set up a mislynch for LyLo. (At least that's what I think. I remember not having explained my reasoning to reduce the possibility of scum being alerted, but it turned out not to matter at all. ^^;. )

[Kalikantzaros]

Ah, I see. ^^ I hadn't realised that it was a countermeasure in case you were lynched.