Newbie 1425 Part Deux -- Game Over

[RayFrost]

I was cop last game, hahaha.

Vote: Stubbs

toes.

[RayFrost]

It's a l-2, whoopdedoo. I don't see much about it being worth making a comment on.

Two basically voiceless votes right after another and then guyett thinking the reaction is scummy. First two things mean nothing, guyett's vote needs a reply before I give my feelings on it so that I don't skew things. Part of my opinion comes from the reply.

[RayFrost]

Honestly kinda out of it in terms of motivation

Reset and such and just being tired lately = meeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[RayFrost]

Guyett's reasoning is basically "pressure vote" - guyett seems slightly town for it, singer is probably town, omega is neutral, RMarie's reactions are neutral, and your reaction is townish.

[RayFrost]

Innocentvillager's alt status is not in jeopardy at all.

[RayFrost]

My comment wasn't really game relevant.

So far, I dislike innocent's posting style but what he's actually saying is completely agreeable.

Unvote, Vote: RMarie

I have a feeling.

[RayFrost]

Prod dodge, it's past 1 am if i make a post it won't be fully coherent so you'll get one tomorrow sometime

[RayFrost]

Hi guys, I'm here now. I am actually not much one for being in games from the start (I prefer to replace in or have replace-in style situations, like waking up to find a game has started and has 5+ pages). That and a reroll and such, it's really a pain in the ass for me because I have a difficult time finding momentum. That said, my vote on RMarie

is

a serious vote. Singer seems to see it too, but I'll just get into why a bit later. This post will be a tad bit stream of consciousness. And I'm not in the mood to edit it after I've written things.

First:

The two reasons behind arcangel's vote for me are "defending guyett's vote" and "not being the same as last game." I've partially answered the second one, but I'll say it a bit differently here.

It is not the same game.

I will not play the same every damn game I'm in. I'm not a machine that constantly spews towniness out of its mechanical depository units. I'm a person, I have moods, I change how I play based on the situations I'm in, etc, etc.

Last game, I had replaced into the following situation: I was cop. I had the guy I replaced

claim cop in the first two pages of the game

. My role was heavily suspect and only given leave to live because of the cop claim. I had to come in,

discredit the claim

and still find a way to make sure that you guys would listen to what I had to say instead of just stringing me up. The best way to do that is to counteract proper play as cop and make myself the most aggressive, dominating, and guiding force in the game. Why? Because being the strongest voice makes getting people to ignore discrediting a predecessor easier. It relieves the suspicions on the slot.

Can you honestly say that everyone in this game is playing the same as last game? No. How can I say no so confidently? I see disparate posting styles from Regals (was a replacement last game - partial reason), ChaosOmega (was a replacement in the hot seat last game - partial reason), and RMarie (is busy now and was a replacement last game - partial reason).

The only reason you guys can find it simple to look at me is that I was

one of, if not the most, actively aggressive / present players in the game

.

Now, moving on to the other part:

I said explicitly that I

find guyett townish for his vote

. I'm not going to back down from this. Arcangel's reasoning here is basically a disagreement in the value of a pressure vote early on in the game.

Pressure = activity = discussion = furthering the game out of the random voting stage = promoting the finding of scum = winning the game. This is my logic.

Arcangel's logic as I see it is this: Pressure = just voting = not going to comment = reducing discussion levels by using it as an excuse to lurk = not furthering the game = deterring scumhunting = losing the game.

It's a disagreement where arcangel is on the moon from my point of view, but that's really a pure theory based argument which has no merit in terms of figuring out alignment. Potato potahto tomato tomahto

This ends the defense portion of my post. If you were looking for me talking about things other than defending myself and are too lazy to read the whole post, the rest of this is for you. There is no tl;dr because I am a snowman. Suck my tophat.

First, I'm going to go into things that bother me about RMarie:

The most obvious reason (one that singer has pointed out previously) is her consistent asking for people to be more active. She's taking the time to tell people to do more when she could alternatively take that time to instead...

actually do more

. She's avoiding providing content by telling people to provide content. There's some limitations to time based on being busy, but if you've got time to read the thread and make a series of posts about the lack of activity, then you have time to actually be active instead of active lurking.

This post is actually very uninformative. She goes from asking cats his opinion to giving what is literally the most uninformative opinion I have ever seen to making a flimsy-weak-at-the-knees-blows-over-when-a-kitten-farts excuse to read arc as slightly town. The uninformative opinion, if you don't see it, is "[M]y thoughts on this is that we are now out of RVS since we have a major wagon going." She has said "the rvs is over" - about as insightful as saying the sky is blue.

RMarie has spent the majority of her posts bemoaning the activity level, explaining her lack of activity, or asking people a list of questions without actually saying

anything

of her own opinion(s).

There's also a pretty stark contrast between what RMarie says is arcangel's meta and the reason she finds arcangel town. Arcangel is feisty and volatile is town and logical and less volatile as scum she says, arcangel is town because she's being logical and not volatile she says.

I'd also like to say that I take offense to this whole "unwilling to accept mistakes" thing. This game, I haven't really posted enough to make mistakes that I'd need to admit to having done.

RMarie's last post in this thread is severely hypocritical. She calls IV out for not providing substance when she hasn't actually given any of us a single straight opinion on anybody in this game except for the

slight

town read on arcangel (with reasoning that means she should read arcangel as scum instead). This is literally all of the substance she's really provided about her thoughts.

RMarie has devoted the majority of her time this game actively avoiding actually laying down her own opinion when she has clearly displayed enough time to do so. The only limiting factor in providing her opinions is her desire: she clearly is more invested in avoiding laying herself on the line to actually say who she thinks is scum or even just scummy than in finding scum. Ergo, she is scum.

The whole running odds for being scum thing is just pointless. Both sides are silly. RMarie is silly for bringing it up, the rest of you are silly for trying to harp on it as some great tell regarding her alignment. It's not. Just stop.

[RayFrost]

Also, if RMarie flips scum then I am more inclined to believe that arcangel is scum.

Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?

This reads so very very much like someone who is scum trying to direct their scumbuddy away from running down a really bad argument path.

I haven't seen a more blatant "hey pal are you

really

sure you want to go down that path? I mean... do you really wannna do it? You sure? Cuz you know things probably ain't gonna work out, just look at those gigantic sentry guns. You'll get eaten alive" style post in a while.

If you want the more technical jargon, this is commonly called coaching. Wherein a mafioso "coaches" their buddy toward or away from certain things.

[RayFrost]

Oh and guyett wanted meta of me as scum.

Here - I would just like to say, singer, that I am

still

salty about this game. I didn't get nominated for a scummy

and

I got boned by scorched earth win conditions. This was my one shot for the gold. My one shot!
You
Go

[RayFrost]

Guyett, what were you hoping to get out of that post about how you're bad at a specific alignment

Regals, what are you even talking about?

Villager, scum and town both don't necessarily count votes properly / bother to count at all. The stuff about needing to meta people to read them reads poorly to me. Mafia is not just a game of "research people and then try to make connections from all this previous behavior to judge this game as objectively as possible." It's a subjective game.

This whole using meta to distance yourself from the reasoning for finding someone scummy thing really is a peeve of mine.

Meta is a tool but it is not the main tool you should use. If you are using it as your main scumhunting method, you are using a crutch.

Her response to me reads very disingenuous. She then only chooses to look

at her wagon

for people to vote rather than looking at the entire game. A very self-oriented perspective that runs down the vein of attack the drivers of the cart to make it lose momentum. Her reasoning? Non-existent, only thing about guyett is how guyett is able to play well as scum basically. Woopdedoo. So am I. So is singer. So is everyone else in this game, probably.

The stuff about her alignment not being joined at the hip with arc is completely valueless.

Of course not

.

RMarie, your attempt to tell me that you aren't "joined at the hip" with arc is not only insulting to my understanding of the game but also irritating in the sense that I specifically stated that I could see your post as coaching and that, in the event you flip scum, I would be more inclined to vote arcangel due to connective reasoning and you somehow blew this up to me going "RMarie scum = arc scum, RMarie town = arc town" which is absolutely not what I was saying.

So yes. I do find the reply to be rather underwhelming, as she

still

has not actually given us anything to work with. Vague comments and offers of meta and a vote with no reasoning and a "but what if!" do not make for anything that is of much interest to me.

To answer the question on what happens in the event of a RMarie-town flip: I will reassess my reads during the night phase and come up with a new set of ideas and a case in the next game day.

[RayFrost]

Cats, can you give us a solid statement on who you actually find to be scummy / townie and why

Same for Regals. You say we should get together, but you haven't yet. I

will

expect content from you.

I will expect from you both. If you do not provide, I will rain down all of my snow-born, lightly sun-baked, top-hatted, slushy fury upon the both of you. In equal measure.

[RayFrost]

Okay, while you're here I would like your opinions about everyone you have an opinion about.

This means everyone in the game, in case you weren't aware.

[RayFrost]

Arc ignores everything in the thread to say RMarie is following her town meta, even being so "impassioned" as to call our votes... fifthly?

.................................

They're both scum. They're scumbuddies. Kill them. They must die.

I mean really.

Really

.

[RayFrost]

Villager, you are assuming the meta analysis we are being given is genuine analysis and not just words.

I'm leaning toward them being words.

Lots of words with no real meaning.

[RayFrost]

Please do the proddings of chaosomega

[RayFrost]

RMarie you've had six pages and ten million pages of meta research.

Give reasons for your reads or perish and be forgotten.

[RayFrost]

I will let you know after RMarie tells me her reasons for her reads.

Note that the mod changed the lynch rules so that it is no lynch if we don't get enough votes at deadline.

So... vote before deadline any of you non-voting bums.

[RayFrost]

Yes but if people think that the lynch goes through regardless because they didn't read the rules then things would suck major dongs.

In the meantime, i must ask: did you read any of the meta I gave you of my scum play?

[RayFrost]

Well I'm town this game so don't worry about it.

keheheheheheheh

[RayFrost]

What about the votes say that

[RayFrost]

If guyett is lynched my divine fury will rain down on

all of you

.

I will dissect what's wrong with innocent's logic and break down how horribly unfulfilling arcangel's post is in the next post.

[RayFrost]

Firstly:

NS, what's the countdown for finding a replacement for chaosomega?

NL should not be an option period. I would rather see Guyett who is a scum read to me lynched, but it would be better that I be mislynched than a NL

Ugh I honestly think Rach might be town. Sure you can argue it's wifom to try and sweettalk us out of this but she should know we're experienced enough to not fall for that. Looks like a townie sticking to principle...

I'd be fine with Guyett, honestly

VOTE: Guyett

I said I was going to break down your logic, but you provide

absolutely none

as to why guyett is scum. You're simply voting him because you aren't going to vote RMarie.

Unacceptable

. Reasons or die.

As scum or town there is significant motivation to say "lynch me." As scum, it prevents the reads from holding over and getting you killed the next game day but with

more discussion around you to figure out your buddy via connections

.

As town, it prevents a no lynch and guarantees information.

It's really a null tell that means absolutely nothing in regards to alignment as there is no actual great motivation to say it to begin with unless you believe that both of the above stated reasons are actually valid, in which case it's still null because that means there's motivation for either side.

In my actual opinion there is no point in saying it. It's completely obvious. It's basically giving us permission to lynch her. She really doesn't have a choice. Saying it changes

nothing

.

Now if she had said she'd be willing to vote herself to avoid no lynch, then

that

would be arguably town motivated (as in you could argue the point. I don't think it would be a tell regarding alignment but you would at least have a half of a burnt leg to stand on, which I would cut off swiftly after you tried walking)

Now, on to arcangel.

Because i have played with Rach as scum and town. I know how scum rach thinks.. she rach would never read me town and scum rach lurk lurk lurks a lot.. just like Rach did that before reboot. Remember i read her as scum in last game and she turned out to be scum, Isn't it. Trust me i know how to read Rach for sure...


And Ray, that was pretty good post but i am not completely convinced becuz there is indeed variance in your play that doesn't seem to be as same town behavior of you but as you said it is may be possible becuz in last game the situation was pretty upside down. the only thing that i don't see in you now from last game is that you were very town motivated, you manage to see through a town member despite the lurkyness and multiple mistakes and i feel that sincerity is now missing in this game.

And my next suspect who i am pretty sure is scum is Guyett.. All of his post of this day seem very opportunist.
He pushed Rach wagon with no real content in it.. and when i defended her, he joined me with Rach and started calling both of us scum.. this is so obvious.

VOTE: Guyett

First, one of the major reasons I find RMarie scummy is the fact she

was active lurking for the majority of the game

(until she was called out for it and specifically told what content to provide). So this lurk lurk scum meta is in line with the case against her.

That game had so many people who were clearly town that it limited the scope to a small number of people who could possibly be scum, meaning your (and I quote your list from that game) "unsure possibly scum" read on RMarie is completely unimpressive in terms of being able to read her.

In regards to your post about me, it reads as the most hedge-your-bets back away from calling someone scum that I have seen in a while. "Your post is good but idk last game you called someone town and it felt sincere and this game it doesn't feel sincere." I called guyett town despite several people calling him scum this game, for one. For two, I replaced into that game with people attacking someone that I read as town so I defended them and moved on to who I felt was scum. Much akin to how I defended guyett then moved on this game. Since we're making so many comparisons.

The entire reasoning behind not being sure if I'm town or not is basically "everything you're doing is townish to me but I just don't feel like you're town." There's a limit to what gut can excuse. Not. Buying. It.

Your vote on guyett is "he called me and RMarie scum for calling him scum so he's scum."

Which is doing the exact same thing you're accusing him of doing.

[RayFrost]

Thank you for the information.

Now all we need is a deadline extension for the replacement... ;P

[RayFrost]

OH SUP WISDOM HOW YAH DOING BEEN A WHILE

[RayFrost]

I didn't decide to use meta.

I was using what

arcangel was saying about RMarie's meta

for my comments because arc's entire reason for finding RMarie townish was the meta.

[RayFrost]

Because i have played with Rach as scum and town. I know how scum rach thinks.. she rach would never read me town and scum rach lurk lurk lurks a lot.. just like Rach did that before reboot. Remember i read her as scum in last game and she turned out to be scum, Isn't it. Trust me i know how to read Rach for sure...

The quote for reference.

Also if you're not going to fully read what I have to write then you really shouldn't bother making conclusions about what I'm saying because you have no clue what the context is. What you basically said was "HE LOOKS MANIPULATIVE FROM WHAT I CAN TELL IDK MAYBE HES TOWN BUT MANIPULATION SO SCUMMY."

I'm being very very blunt with what I want and what I'm thinking. Call it manipulative to state my thoughts directly if you want. I call it transparency. It's a thing I do.

I also explicitly stated why I saw a potential connection between arcangel and RMarie and then furthered it as I felt that their postings about each other were increasingly in line with desperate chainsaw-y bullshit.

I'm really really really tired of this meta based reads orgy. I don't know you fucks well enough to meta you and I have just seen wisdom say that RMarie's meta is one thing while arcangel says it is another. I'm leaning towards neither of you bums have any clue what her meta actually is because you only have played with her in a couple of games and are assuming you understand her psyche from this small sample size.

In which case I'd like to suggest that maybe you drop the meta book and open the book of reading the damn game and making decisions for your damn self based on the postings in the damn game and then giving some goddamned reasons to back up your thricedamned claims and reads regarding these damned people.

[RayFrost]

The many townreads on him trouble me though, because it's possible that scum sheeped the townreads when they saw that town townreaded him.

[RayFrost]

What are you talking about?

Vaguely referencing something instead of just blatantly stating it leaves me in the dark, and I don't like to be left in the dark regarding people's thoughts about me.

P-edit:

Wisdom: Shrug. I think she's scum. I don't have meta, and I'm not just going to blindly follow your claims of meta.

Another edit (christ you guys seriously):

What denial...? I am explicitly stating my thoughts. I also thought chaosomega was scum last game. I was right.

ANOTHER EDIT:

You and Arcangel call RMarie's meta town for completely opposite reasons. I will never buy meta if the meta is anything she does is town cuz das what I say the meta is. Which is how this shit comes across to me. Period.

Can I seriously make this post you guys have ninja'd me like five times now.

[RayFrost]

..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

So because I am unwilling to accept meta as a valid excuse for all behavior you are going to vote me.

My god, has the site meta really gone to the point where everything is validated or invalidated by meta and everything else is thrown out the window? Christ.

[RayFrost]

Wisdom, I would like an answer to three questions.

1: You state that lurking is RMarie's town meta, Arcangel states that lurking is her scum meta. Which is correct?

2: Can you lay out in detail why you think I am scum? What I can see so far is "he's being manipulative and he reads someone I think is town as scum."

3: What were your thoughts when you first came into this game?

P-edit:

Denial of WHAT, exactly? The town meta read that you and wisdom both give opposite reasons and meta for? And how does this make me scum, if I might ask? Since you seem so insistent on it meaning something, tell me the meaning.

Your reason earlier was "you don't feel the same as last game." Last game I replaced into the cop slot with it claimed page two and had to somehow assume control of the situation. This game, I had no need to assume control until you fucks were like "wahh ray isn't being the god of the town" as a reason to find me scummy. I can't just artificially graft my playstyle to match the one style I adopted in a very high pressure situation when this is not a high pressure replace-in with several pages of content to look at situation. I've been in since game start, my play in games where I'm in from game start is

completely different

and honestly a lot worse than my play when replacing in.

[RayFrost]

Because I have no proof of this being her meta aside from word of mouth. I have never and will never take meta as a get out of jail free card.

Not this game.

Not last game.

Not ever.

Either link me to several posts in several recently completed games proving that she not only does this as town but also doesn't do it as scum or drop the meta defense.

[RayFrost]

I did not claim she does it as scum I was saying that I find it scummy.

If you read my damn posts you'd realize the meta comment was a

direct reply to arcangel's post regarding RMarie's meta

. Saying that if Arcangel's meta is accurate then my original reason for finding RMarie scum is

validated

not

invalidated

.

Jesus christ I even fucking quoted it for you and you still don't see it.

P-edit: So it's my job to validate your 100% meta based defense of a player? No.

Burden of proof is on you.

[RayFrost]

Last game, RMarie was an actively contributing player who took a balancing-act approach to her scum/town reads until her tooth surgery happened. She was scum.

By all intents and purposes if I were the type to say "I've looked at one game, this tells me everything about a person's playstyle" this would completely invalidate my read on RMarie and make it a clear and obvious town read.

But I'm not.

P-edit:

Give me links, and I'll do my research. I'm not going to hunt down games, though.

Edit again:

Arcangel you just said words and no links, I'll check mini 1444.

Also, read the thread. Wisdom already made a big post explaining his thoughts.

Christ it's like none of you are reading posts.

[RayFrost]

Also it is 3 am I have to wake up at 7:30 and I have work today.

I am going to ruin my day if I stay up any longer.

I will get back to you people after my day. Too tired to keep staring at this screen any longer. Stayed up later than I wanted already.

[RayFrost]

Oh before I go, if RMarie is not scum, then IV would be the person I'd be instinctually guided to look at next. I haven't done this so I am unable to say more at the moment.

[RayFrost]

Unvote

No energy to do a full read through the game again. Worked all day on no sleep. We still got two days and six hours as of this post so I don't feel enormous time pressure, etc, blah, etc, blah, etc, blah.

In the meantime no amount of meta can change the fact I see no scum-motivation for RMarie to actively try to derail a wagon on the person who has the single strongest scum read on her in the game. Other than being cocky as fuck. In which case she'll regret it later anyway.

Haven't even bothered reading the meta shit. Mostly because I don't subscribe to the concept and never have save for "I have played many games with this person and have as a result become naturally acquainted with them." Which is only really something I use to validate an initial reasoning for looking at someone / dismissing someone and then going in more depth as to why with actual content based shit. I'll read the meta later when I'm not feeling my eye burning out of my sockets.

P-edit: How is it that the

exact

time I come to post I get ninja'd. What the hell.

[RayFrost]

My reads have nothing to do with whether or not they think I am scum, my reads are based on whether or not I think THEY are scum.

That's my point.

[RayFrost]

To be honest, I don't really like either of the cats or guyett lynch but in terms of risk vs reward in opting to lynch between two town reads, guyett is better due to information: he's interacted more, his role is already claimed (no risk of outting / lynching a pr), etc.

I'd much prefer to lynch innocent villager but at this point I don't see that as a reality, especially since my reasoning behind him is mostly "I feel like he's more likely scum than town, not enough posts to really back this up with anything"

Vote: Guyett

- it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But a lynch must be done.

I'd rather keep my thoughts on who I think is scum/town past what I've said to myself for now. Mostly cuz I worked all day it's 2 am and I am too tired to go through everything I read to pick the posts. I didn't have the foresight to do so beforehand like an idiot.

[RayFrost]

The difference between now and then was it was either RMarie (scum read to me at the time) or guyett (town read).

Now it's cats or guyett, both town reads of mine.

[RayFrost]

Shrug.

Disagree with me as you like but I genuinely see very little that's different in cats' play this game and last game. I get the same vibe, and that's how it goes.

Two town reads, one slightly stronger than the other (guyett is a little stronger), but the stronger town read provides vastly more information with which to analyze the game / limits information granted to scum, making him the lesser of two undesirable lynches.

[RayFrost]

Patently false.

I'm saying that I don't have a particularly convincing case / much confidence that I could get the lynch to go to who I think is scum (innocent villager), which means that the decision for me is between two town reads.

When choosing between two people I think are likely to be town, I choose based on information rather than scumhunting because

I don't think either of them is scum

.

[RayFrost]

Difference in mafia philosophy.

Priorities: lynching scum, lynching for maximum information, lynching the least damaging lynch, lynching whatever's left.

NL should not be an option period. I would rather see Guyett who is a scum read to me lynched, but it would be better that I be mislynched than a NL

Ugh I honestly think Rach might be town. Sure you can argue it's wifom to try and sweettalk us out of this but she should know we're experienced enough to not fall for that. Looks like a townie sticking to principle...

I'd be fine with Guyett, honestly

VOTE: Guyett

This post is literally 100% of my issue with innocent villager. He gives a rather fake reason to find RMarie townie and gives no reason at all to vote guyett. Just sheeping the flow of votes while having not previously provided any direction of his own that he'd prefer. It shows a complete unwillingness to be open about his thoughts and letting us do all the work.

One post doesn't make a case.

[RayFrost]

I quite clearly had more, considering the extensive amount I posted in regards to RMarie / arcangel.

Which you deconstructed with meta and RMarie deconstructed with townish behavior.

The fact I tunnel visioned doesn't mean the entire expanse is suddenly nonexistent. I focused on who I thought was scum, I gained momentum, you came in, basically hit me in the face with a brick wall and are now yelling at me for a lack of progress when I've had roughly four hours to spend on relaxation in the past two days, which I might add is

the time since I stopped focusing on RMarie

.

I gave and give a shit. Just that my energy was not put into the person I am now looking at.

[RayFrost]

I'm very much a momentum based player. That's why starting games is hard for me, and it also makes it very difficult for me to keep a consistent level of activity if my momentum gets shattered (such as having the entire town basically say "yeah what you're saying is 100% true but you're wrong" and brick wall me). I'm tired. I need this game day to end to give me the time to read through and piece my head together, I can't form something coherent out of a series of 3 am posts.

[RayFrost]

Take from this what you will. I don't have the energy at this point to argue with you. I'm exhausted, I'm going to sleep.

I will reply to you if the game thread is still open when I can actually get on. In about 18 hours.

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: innocent villager

I didn't think this would happen, but I vastly prefer this to guyett / cats. Popping in cuz my client rescheduled for later in the day.

[RayFrost]

Why is RayFrost scum again?

Because his posting feels like he has been trying to manipulate people and look town.
Because his Guyett jump despite earlier claims that he absolutely did not want him lynched is terrible.
Because he admits even now that Guyett is a townread yet he wants to lynch him over pushing actual scumreads. He even admits he doesn't have actual scumreads.
Because I didn't like his Rach push at all. Rach always gets pushed by scum. By town too, granted, but there will usually be some scum to orchestrate it.

Please point out my manipulations.

I explicitly stated that I have a scumread on innocent villager. Just that I don't have a game-winning case for it. Like singer said, he doesn't have much of anything to go off of.

[RayFrost]

Can you put all of your shit into just a couple posts instead of doing a bunch of one liners

[RayFrost]

Older course?

Regals: Have you seen my posts? I don't think people will complain.

[RayFrost]

You were blindly sheeped by arc (even more so than) and guyett, but you only mentioned guyett when poking at people. Meaning you accept sheeping. Just only if it's sheeping you.

The hypocrisy.

[RayFrost]

"wow all the sheeping" kind of implies you have a problem with it.

Considering you didn't bring it up before.

[RayFrost]

That's a good point and it makes me think that scum are just trying to make the PR claim - we've had two claims already and now there's a push on someone unclaimed out of nowhere.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: singer

To be honest, I don't really like either of the cats or guyett lynch but in terms of risk vs reward in opting to lynch between two town reads, guyett is better due to information: he's interacted more, his role is already claimed (no risk of outting / lynching a pr), etc.

I'd much prefer to lynch innocent villager but at this point I don't see that as a reality, especially since my reasoning behind him is mostly "I feel like he's more likely scum than town, not enough posts to really back this up with anything"

Because his posting feels like he has been trying to manipulate people and look town.
Because his Guyett jump despite earlier claims that he absolutely did not want him lynched is terrible.

Wisdom's position in my mind is slipping.

[RayFrost]

In case what I just showed isn't clear, I'll break it down:

He goes from arguing with me that choosing between two of my town reads and choosing based off of not wanting to make someone claim was bad to using the pushing of someone unclaimed out of nowhere as reason to jump someone unclaimed out of nowhere (he has one previous scummy mention of singer which was "singer is pressuring me, so scummy").

Every single one of his posts feels designed specifically to shut off any vote that isn't where he wants it to be: by breaking people's momentum via attacking them arbitrarily. Which is relevant to the last post: manipulating people and trying to look town. Anytime anyone votes not-what-he-wants his vote goes to that person. Then he eventually transitions away from his aggression whenever he's curbed whatever it was he wanted to curb. This is displayed in his handling of me: I think RMarie is scum, he goes hard on me until I back off from the position, then he goes hard on me again when I take another position that he doesn't like, then drops the point of argument because someone's being aggressive towards him (singer), then he hard balls into singer because singer's opting for a choice that he doesn't like, using the very un-supportable reasoning of basically "it could be scum pushing for a PR claim!" when he's voting for an unclaimed person and has already stated that voting based on information is anti-town and that we lynch scum and ignore claimed / unclaimed.

He's basically cherry picking whatever side to the arguments that most help whatever he wants to back, he's trying to curb activity and thoughts that aren't exactly in line with his way of thinking, and he shows a complete and total brick wall attitude to any attempt to convince him of anything that he doesn't agree with. Which sshows a complete unwillingness to be a team-based player. He's playing as if he isn't part of a group of people, which is a self-centered (aka scum) viewpoint.

His claims that guyett was for sure town then going and being hyper-aggressive on guyett due to guyett sheeping while completely ignoring arcangel's sheeping combined with him having issue with the recent sheeping (yet hand waving it as general dislike but w/e doesn't mean anything about alignment)

P-edit:

Wisdom basically just said that singer is pushing a lynch on someone who is unclaimed to get information at deadline, but... she could just as easily do that on cats, who is more likely to be lynched and a lot easier to get away with (I mean, think about it: wisdom basically hand waved arcangel's blatant "sheeping wisdom" post. What risk is there for singer, who wisdom already said he thinks is town?).

You're pointing too many fingers, Wisdom. Not everyone in this game can be scum, yet you're trying to argue every point on everyone as if they're all true.

[RayFrost]

Also, there are 8 hours left to deadline.

There's three votes on cats, three votes on villager, one vote on cats, and one vote on singer.

[RayFrost]

As much as I would like to get into this row with wisdom (he's not really a scum read, but I really dislike the discrepancies), we're down to almost no time left.

People, pick a horse.

[RayFrost]

How to show you didn't even read an entire post, by dr. wisdom.

[RayFrost]

Your unwillingness to lynch because it's not who

you

want is genuinely anti-town.

Lynch > No Lynch

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: Guyett

I don't like it, but it's the best option given the unwillingness to vote my scumread.

[RayFrost]

Hi, I'm in this game.

I'll be here with things tomorrow. Too busy.

[RayFrost]

..........

Why are you trying to do as little as possible?

[RayFrost]

I got more work to do but in roughly 3-4 hours I'll have WORDS.

Until then, this s an update since I said I'd get to this game tomorrow yesterday.

[RayFrost]

In last game, Ray managed to find honest and newbie mistakes in tweeky posts though he/she was most suspected player over all and was about to get lynched. I am mising that sense of style right now

I have one question.

What new player is being attacked that is making honest newbie mistakes for me to defend from the attacks?

There's nobody that I'm reading town that's being attacked particularly hard this game. I mean, before wisdom came into this game, I was basically the largest force in the game in terms of attacking. Practically nobody did anything. Then wisdom came and he's doing things. He practically deserves a badge of honor for his activity when compared to 90% of the playerlist. But his attacks were primarily on me, and then something or other on singer, and a bunch of pressure votes.

Besides, since when was white-knighting a significant town tell.

Now that this is out of the way, on to the more interesting things.

Vote: Innocent Villager

He's admitted to actively trying to not be a contributing member of the town. I haven't liked any of his posting this game so far, and the act he's saying he intends to active lurk doesn't make him look better.

Contribute meaningful thoughts and reads or die.

[RayFrost]

On Regals: her contributions to this game are basically a bunch of snipe-y one liners about posts without actually giving us a single clue as to what her reads are on anybody except for really blatantly obviously easy to make stances like "wisdom town."

[RayFrost]

RMarie:

Who is scum? Why?

Regals:

Who is scum? Why?

IV:

Who is scum? Why?

Cats:

Not much to do here. The people I want to ask the most questions of are the ones who are most inactive.

While we're here, I must know: how much of your unwillingness to vote is based off of the fact that the people who are most suspect are the most inactive?

[RayFrost]

Oh. You.

ns I hope you're done artificially changing your meta by actively being a non-contributor to the game. This game has enough of a lack of contributions by the playerlist for you to be an active and helpful member of the game.

[RayFrost]

My vote's good where it is right now.

No real reasons, no real commentary, no real anything.

[RayFrost]

So basically you haven't stopped the artificial "not going to ever really contribute anything ur dumb if u call me scum" playstyle.

Good to know. Die.

[RayFrost]

Honestly ns, I thought your slot was scum before you replaced in and the change you made to your playstyle makes you both unreadable and completely useless.

So by virtue of the fact that you're voting a town read of mine based off of "waffling," your new playstyle is inherently scummy to me (and you have stated you are doing this on purpose, meaning meta is worthless because you are controlling it so don't even try to give me that shit), the playerslot read as scum to me before, and I just really fucking hate your persona, I'm not going to let this lynch on you go.

Either actually be a contributor or die. I don't care which.

[RayFrost]

I didn't think I would ever end up agreeing with you, Wisdom.

Yet here we are.

[RayFrost]

I could see the cats / regals pairing or a ns / regals pairing, but I can't see ns / cats and those are really the only people I can see as scum at the moment.

I also think Rach is town by the way the votes are spread out

Cats to go then.... I would love to see this persons reaction

VOTE: Cats

VOTE: Cats

Sheeping Wisdom and I want to see what happens with this wagon

Both of these votes I hate.

Unvote, Vote: Regals

Regals is more deserving of death than ns. I can sort the other two out later.

[RayFrost]

She arbitrarily expressed dislike of two votes on someone. Idk seems like soft chainsaw to me.

I can't see ns / cats because it doesn't make much sense to me. Like I know it's a possibility, but I can't... mentally accept that reality.

[RayFrost]

And your thoughts about Regals, given current statements?

[RayFrost]

No. I just don't feel it works.

[RayFrost]

Never said I had a good reason.

But feelings are feelings. I trust my instinct.

[RayFrost]

I'm confused. Evil Regals were you talking about yourself in third person there or was that a broken quote? And you still haven't commented on why you hated the votes on me or how Guyett's town-flip affects your reads from the end of D1.

This pretty much sums up anything I'd have to say about these most recent posts.

[RayFrost]

Do I think scum was piggybacking on that wagon? Yes. Do I know which are scum? No.

Do you have any

ideas

that you feel like sharing even if you don't

know

?

[RayFrost]

Mind sharing some real content with me

[RayFrost]

@RF. give me a few days to get into the speed of the game. I'm trying to evaluate. (note, I mean IRL days not game days)

Days have been given.

Now cough up the goods.

[RayFrost]

Well. You haven't done a single thing to make it better. You have literally not contributed at all. This entire game. And a major reason it was dead was your slot's absence.

And you promised content.

Which you aren't giving.

Unvote, Vote Notscience

Get out.

[RayFrost]

No, I'm saying lynch notscience because he's actively non-contributory/scummy, his predecessor was non-contributory/scummy, and

that

guy's predecessor never even posted. So basically a scummy playerslot that's admitted (ON BOTH ACTIVE PLAYERS' ACCOUNTS) that they are actively choosing to not provide any content whatsoever.

Saying "this game's soooo inactive" as the reasoning for not being active is the ultimate bullshit. Blatantly not providing content in the face of people demanding content / providing content / actively posting is scummy.

I'm not going to take any excuses.

[RayFrost]

The people who aren't willing to vote the two vote leaders because oh noes town reads need to realize that there's a fucking reason those people are on the chopping block and that lynching one of them leads to more information and a greater chance of their oh so amazing scum reads being lynched.

Lynching is pro-town.

Not lynching is pro-scum.

[RayFrost]

Vote: Malakittens

I'm feeling a lot better about this than a vote on cats. I did some thinking and soul searching over the night phase, and I get the feeling that cats is too genuine to be scum.

Lynch this for great justice.

[RayFrost]

PoE mostly

[RayFrost]

I said why I feel cats is good. It's a feeling of sincerity in his posting style. I am really really good at telling when people are sincere in certain circumstances. Like when someone's efforts are pretty clearly laid out and I can feel the sweat on their brow while reading. Am I weird for being able to do this? Maybe. But I trust the feeling when I get it.

Mala was scummy before, cats was scummy before, I read back over and now feel cats is more likely to be town than scum, leaving mala as the primary choice.

This is given that you're town read to me, arc is town read to me, and I'm obviously town to me.

So yeah.

[RayFrost]

but there is more than one scum left Ray is there not? so who is scum 2?

No, there's only two scum in a newbie game.

Man I can't tell if this is actually a genuine town slip.

;-; Ray makes me sad and so does the Wisdom kill. It's what I totally expect a skilled mafia player to do in order to take me down. I can see Ray going "My bad" after I'm lynched and flip town.

So basically "ray is calling me scum, but he's such a good scum player he would kill someone who wanted to lynch me and then push my lynch with amazingly well thought out cases and logic that I could buy ray scum"

Are you saying you think I'm scum or not? All I get out of this is a very weak snipey as hell discredit attempt. Which really doesn't help your case here.

Now. If you don't think I'm scum, who

is

?

[RayFrost]

That puts mala at l-1.

Just making sure everyone's aware.

[RayFrost]

And why do you think it's me, kind lady?

[RayFrost]

I think the most significant reason she hasn't been hammered is that the other two people in this game aren't even here yet.

Like... yeah. And besides, hammering super early would be a bad move even if they

were

here. Discussion is good.

[RayFrost]

A respectable enough reason, I suppose.

But why me over cats?

I mean, I'm the most likely to get lynched in this upcoming game day if you flip town, so yah might as well lay out reasons now to help people know why you think it should happen.

[RayFrost]

Well, if I'm lynched today, then your reasons were good enough to change things. The comment about if you flip town I'm the next most likely is actually less to do with you and more to do with the other players.

I'll try to discredit anything you write because it's part of my job to defend myself. Might as well write what you have to say. After all, you need to convince the rest of the town that I'm scum, not me.

[RayFrost]

"I'll gt my thoughts in within the day" - arc and cats.

Please. PLEASE. No excuse for being inactive like this.

[RayFrost]

I rather want to go with Cats than mala...
but the question can we afford a mislynch today?

Cat dies...if cat is scum, we win
if cat flips town.. one of us will die in the night..
it will 2 vs 1

Smug and Ray - who are you comfortable voting today? Mala or Cat?

By definition of still having two town people alive if we mislynch, we can "afford" to mislynch today as much as we can "afford" to mislynch day 1. We lose a townie if we do, lynching scum is better.

I will not vote cats. I will vote mala.

[RayFrost]

I already explained why I prefer mala over cats btw.

[RayFrost]

I will have to reevaluate. Just blindly going "poe says I should look at cats next" would be silly. I'd re-read smudger / arc as well as cats, look for connections to the dead cum / other cum tells, and decide from there.

[RayFrost]

Would you be happier if I phrased it as "if on the highly unlikely chance that you flip town, my worldview will be so rocked that I will have to reevaluate the entirety of this game to make sure that I'm not letting anything slip by"

Seriously.

[RayFrost]

I don't seem to understand what you were trying to say in your post.

My understanding is "you seemed so sure about mala being scum, why are you replying to her post in a way that displays you are entertaining the thought of her flipping town?"

In which case my post above is my reply. If not, you're going to have to explain to me what exactly you mean.

[RayFrost]

What I said was in reaction to her hypothesis of her flipping town.

Not in general

[RayFrost]

I'm completely decidedly for lynching mala. The comment

was

a throwaway line to appease her question because I don't think the situation will come up. If by some ungodly chance it did, I'd have to reevaluate the game because the reality I am currently living in (aka mala-scum) has been destroyed (aka mala is actually town).

[RayFrost]

I've done my homework already. I already stated that, in this game day, I feel mala is the best lynch. What I was saying was expressly regarding what I would be doing over the night phase if mala flipped town.

That is all.

[RayFrost]

I swear to god.

If mala isn't lynched I will be done with this game in heart and mind. The most I can see cats being accused of at the moment is a lack of activity and individual initiative.

Guess what the majority of players alive this game have? A lack of activity and individual initiative. See: Mala's indecision on who to vote and unwillingness to be clear, arc's indecision and hesitancy to even form a solid stance on things to work from, smudger only barely taking a clear stance on things.

Also note mala's lack of posting, arc's lack of posting, the fact cats had to be prodded to post, etc, etc.

[RayFrost]

Cats, you put Mala at L1 what is your reasoning? Ray stop with the indignant hurt routine, you and Cats remain on my sus list.

I'm not hurt, nor am I acting like I am. This game isn't personal to me. I don't get hurt feelings.

I

am

indignant. You are disagreeing with me, this is reason enough for offense. Not only that, your logic for voting him is "you are willing to take a stand, put your vote where your mouth is, and put someone on l-1!"

L-1 votes haven't been a scumtell in non-lylo since forever. Taking a stand is pro-town. L-1 is not an issue unless one of you / mala / arc votes on it.

If mala does it, then she's playing against her win condition.

If arc does it, are you going to blame cats for the l-1 vote or arc for actually lynching?

If you do it, then you wanted the lynch anyway, so being mad at cats for putting his vote where his mouth is makes no sense.

[RayFrost]

What made you come to that decision

[RayFrost]

You're being replaced.

[RayFrost]

Waiting on bitmap.

Very impatiently.

[RayFrost]

N1 I had planned to investigated regals, but I wanted to be absolutely sure wisdom was town going into d2. N2, I went with someone I felt wasn't likely to die and was also suspect: I wasn't likely to get nk'd, so if I investigated cats (also unlikely to get nk'd), I could end up in a three man endgame with a confirmed town. I didn't feel he was likely to be scum at the time, but I wasn't confident enough on mala/regals to throw my investigate there. Backing off if mala was town woulda been a lot harder than backing off of cats.

[RayFrost]

Also notscience the slot you replaced into wasn't uberscummy. You just chose,

again

, to actively not contribute anything to the game. Saying "Oh it's a dead game, I'm bored" when your lack of activity is one of the

main reasons

the game isn't active is just really really bad for your chances of having people want you around in-game. "Oh yawn this game lacks people contributing so I won't either" is never a good approach.

Cats, my advice is to be more individually decisive and, as wisdom said, care less about seeming town. Seeming town comes with being an active scumhunter a lot of the time.