Newbie 320 - Berry Village Mafia V (Game Over!)

[Eldarion]

/confirm

[Eldarion]

Vote: Venkman

That is all.

(This should make my life more interesting).

[Eldarion]

In a way, I'm more interested in the grand dance than yours.

I voted for you because of the suspicion you're wielding against CES, and to spice things up a bit. It could very well be that in his defensive play he's trying to fit in with newbies; being seen as out of place can and will get people killed, when in Rome (/me glances at name of board and giggles) and all that jazz.

In all honesty I'd be being perfectly hypocritical in my post if I were going to accuse you Mr Venkman of being scum, purely based on the fact that you're attacking someone based on very little apart from a perceived variation from "typical playstyle"; I am not accusing you though Mr Venkman, I am voting for you.

[Eldarion]

Yup, that's pretty much it. In almost every game you hear this thrown out, but I guess I'm going to have to do it as well; for townspeople (berries, whatever) voting randomly is 71% likely to be a friendly. Anyone in the game at the moment can fairly confidently vote for someone who is not scum (townspeople random voting and scum knowing).
My vote is not inherently scummy, sure you can read it like that if you want, but it is fairly obvious I was voting for whoever's name, avatar, grammar...etc popped out at me while reading through the thread.
My justification might be scummy, and I suppose I intended it that way (to be ambiguous in message). In a C9 game, noone is going to assert that they are in fact scum, and as such shouldn't (I won't say 'wouldn't' because some people don't get the logic game) use a potentially suspicious justification for a random vote without being reasonably confident in the game mechanics. I'm beginning to see that maybe playing in such a way might not be beneficial to my health (or at least my neck, the Cherries are probably loving my inadvertent distractions).

People are constantly accused of being scum due to vote-dropping... for now, mine will stay.

Just remember that all the famed scum-tells are used by innocents too, otherwise noone would ever get away with them. Don't leap on the first thing you don't like, add it to your collection and see if you can fit them together in any sort of comprehensible order.

[Eldarion]

Wait...you dont think hes scum, yet you are voting for him, if thats what i understand correctly. That is almost the same as the scum voting for someone who they know is not scum.

I'd just like to make sure I got across the distinction (and why you used 'almost') between what I did and what scum do. I voted for someone I had had no real idea about, apart from that they were active. I know only the role of two people in this game, me and the mod. If knowing that he was innocent was my reason for voting (and I were scum), would I tell people?

[Eldarion]

I would still feel comfortable, yes. But worrying about getting lynched is not part of my style.

@ Venkman: I guess when you couple defensive playing with not being afraid of getting lynched you get...?

[Eldarion]

No, the point I was making was that it was contradictory and thus left an ellipsis/rhetorical question to emphasize my confusion. Probably unnecessary.

I guess I can safely

unvote

now, your reasoning seems to be fairly similar to mine (worded differently I guess), and it's not like I built my vote on huge pillars of evidence anyway.

[Eldarion]

vote: CES

For trying to pregame lynch me. Seriously dude, was that even legal?

Peter, you don't actually haveto sign your posts.

Eldarion, you waited how long from saying that you were keeping your vote on and then for no good reason, not even a post by the person you were voting before you dropped it? That recieves an FOS. Two and half hours... On a thread forum game... Really isn't that long at all.

@remus: You'll notice that there are several posts from Venkman between when I said I'd keep my vote on to when I withdrew it. Most importantly I came to understand his viewpoint, and I agreed with what he posted. In that light I felt it would be more impolite than anything to keep it on.

@Peter (can I call you Peter? ): Mostly, I don't like Nocmen's posts. They seem to be extremely accusatory and short. CES's don't seem to be too out of left field, nothing I would pounce on I guess.

If you feel I've been exceptionally inconsistent anywhere feel free to bring it up, as long as you are happy being held in the same scrutiny yourself.

[Eldarion]

I would not describe my play so far as defensive. I've simply tried to explain my actions fully because it's my playstyle and I can understand that people who don't know me may find it suspicious.

@CES: I like that you explain it, but putting something down as your playstyle... that's not cool. You could have explained it just as well without invoking playstyle, which I'd like to keep as far away from as possible. It's like trying to bring in some mysterious fairy to magic away all needs for logic and reason for one's actions.

@Peter: I made one vote, then took it off... is that really vote hopping? Things escalate quickly in The Berry Kingdom.

I'm torn between agreeing that the pre-game lynch mention was a joke, and seeing that it was a very neat little trick to get mafia to agree or disagree vehemently in pre-game, when they should have had no opinion. If it were the latter it would probably have been best left until the game started; but it was funny nonetheless.

[Eldarion]

the information is written plainly on the thread, for it is not my response that I am looking for but everyone elses.

My vote is already cast. It will stay cast until someone acts scummy enough to remove it and place a vote upon them.

@ Remus: Making vague grandiose statements about information being "written plainly in the thread", while subtly hinting at your own innocence by claiming to be above showing a response is just not cricket.
Generally I would accept your excuse for throwing a very specific but completely unnecessary vote on CES, it's only when your throw in a claim to hold some superiority through it, but being unwilling to share it that the excuse becomes suspicious. It may just be that I don't think like you and you have massive balls and are willing to risk the town accidentally lynching you to gain some secret insight into the mental machinations of the scum.
Your reason for not taking your vote off is very similar to mine was

it seems

, but I just used mine as a sort of introduction, yours may well have been more successful at drawing reactions, but at the cost of your own image of innocence?

FoS: remussaidow

, I'm going out on a limb here, but I find it

more likely

that your replies, Remus, are not in the town's best interests at the moment.

@ Nocmen: You seem to have defended yourself more than adequately from my statement about your short posts. It was only that your responses seemed so short, but managed to accuse someone every time that was rubbing me the wrong way.

[Eldarion]

The scum need two mislynches to win, not one. A quicklynch might be a good short term move, but it's a really bad long term move. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if noone was even on during that 50 minute window.

I was on. I didn't post, because I wasn't entirely sure what was going down; I also didn't want to discount the fact that we may only be playing with 1 scum at the moment and that throws a much different light on the play that's been happening so far.

I've really got nothing to put in, except that I'd like Cogito to make a longer post about why we should put the faith in him he's asking us to.

[Eldarion]

But I do agree that it was very bad for CES to put up the third vote, hoping that someone could go and just take him out, and then planning on voting for the 4th guy tomorrow saying its his fault for the mislynch.
This game is really showing a CES-Remus pair for the scum in my eyes.

As much as I'd like to agree with your post for agreeing with me, but...

Your post about CES-Remus (esp CES) is plain bad logic. You can't accuse CES of trying to subtly get rid of Remus as a townsman, and in the same breath say that this proves that CES and Remus are scum. It assumes that Remus is town, and uses it to nail CES, and then use CES's 'proven' guilt to 'prove' Remus by association. Uhhh, what?!

FoS: Nocmen

[Eldarion]

Psst, romulus, why don't you vote for Eldarion? It'll be fun.

Well, of course Remus said Ow... His brother killed him.

You

could

of course vote for me and I guess it'll be fun for

some

of the people involved...

A townie claim on D1, this is unfortunate.

[Eldarion]

Ah I forgot to add, in support of GL's post, that Townies defending their actions is

vital

to having a good chance of winning. If everyone plays perfectly, it will be the scum who show up.

[Eldarion]

EDIT - '... that townies

defend logically

...'

I suck at grammar, and life.

[Eldarion]

Holy crap ranger's play is confusing. It really shouldn't work, but dammit, I've got no idea what to think. The last 3 & 1/2 pages has pretty much been dedicated to ranger making crazy moves and people flopping between a town call and a newbie call. As town play it's incredibly distracting, as scum it'd be effective up to a point I suppose.

Peter's role 'is' frequently used as scum cover, but I have no cause to doubt his motivations for playing confidently town.

Only people who have really played suspiciously (apart from ranger of course) are CES and remus. Remus has played 'more' scummy than Cogito, but I'm not convinced. The worst part is I find it incredibly hard to link anyone I suspect, which means they're probably better than me... I particularly don't want to vote remus after ranger doing another switch like that.

[Eldarion]

Ah, fair point about the lack of posting. I'll try to fix it. I was trying to make sure that every post I made counted, but in hindsight I guess it's better to make sure you're active. I check the thread reasonably often, I just don't post most of the time, because I have no logical input on the heated discussions taking place, often between 2 people.

My voting play has been rather similar to CES I guess, but coincidentally I believe, I don't know his motivation for not voting, I'll try to explain mine: I didn't vote for NaR as he seemed too contradictory to know. Near when he hammered himself I was feeling closer to voting for him, but that play was completely incomprehensible. At other points of interest, we were a player down, I felt it was wrong to go on incomplete premises. And that's pretty much it.

Nocmen: Suspects me like other people suspect hitting a light switch will turn on the light (well maybe not THAT much, but still a lot). Strangely I don't feel much in the way of vengeance towards you; except that it's an awful stretch to say that what I wrote back on like page 2 (I attacked GL, for what I thought and still think were good reasons) has any reflection on how I would have felt going into the night; but if you truly view me as scum, and that's the best you got, then I'd say I've posted quite well (when I have).

remussaidow: Doesn't really suspect me more than a gut instinct. I hate gut-instincts, they allow scum to point at someone without dedicating themselves or committing logical fallacies. Previous comment was more of an aside, I'm not accusing you of scum for this, but you really did have a valid reason to accuse me (and hence FoS me), you don't need to go all hand-wavy. You posted that my posting regularity was similar to CES's, I think that's being a bit hard on CES, he seems to have tried very hard to post quite regularly. Personally, if you're satisfied with me, then i'd like to turn the heat up on remus; I'm not satisfied it was adequately resolved last time he came up as the hot topic to attack.

Peter Venkman: The only thing suspicious about him is that he doesn't really make mistakes. Has made plenty of contributions, nothing has come of it yet, but hopefully correct insights will be vindicated by the end of this day.

Cogito Ergo Sum: The person who suspects me the least (unless I missed something?). Doesn't seem too anti-town, but also hasn't given any insights that I've seen. You really shouldn't rely on how a dead player might have perceived your playstyle to prove the fact that you didn't kill him last night. You shouldn't have to rely on anyone else's defence of your playstyle except your own, if you can't explain why you play in a certain way adequately, then you really shouldn't be playing like that. It'll only distract from town's ability to see the enemy (haven't we already been through this discussion of your playstyle a couple of times in this game CES?). Actually while writing this I made a little leap in my head; I've only seen Peter (and I seem to have been bandwagoning a bit on this) really dig into your playstyle, maybe it's just him. You do seem to have made a few 'mistakes', but they could be genuine, and your playstyle is a bit wierd, but I read some of your other games, and it seems you've been lynched for this before (as a townie, or pseudo-townie).

Eldarion: He's incredible, I wish I could be as awesome as him. And keep this on the down-low, but I hear he has the ability to swat 2 flies with a single sweep of a roll of newspaper (this is not a metaphor, he actually does this).

I hope this displaces some 'lurkerish' accusations, which I admit were up to this point relatively easy to pin on me and could even have made townies vote for me. I'll try not to make the same foolish distractions that plagued our first day.

[Eldarion]

Well, I don't really have anything to back that up. I also said that it hasn't really been tested. But the only times I've really disagreed with you were on your 'impulse' points, not your logic.

It takes me ages to write decent sized content-posts, I type fast, but think slow; thought I might as well go all out.

[Eldarion]

Eldarion: You had an early stint against GL near the start of the game, which makes me suspicious over the fact that he died last night, which for inexperienced scum could just be an overreaction (OMG He Pointed Me Out SCUM KILL!). Also, as mentioned for CES, you also have not contributed much to help logic along for us town.

I was sure I remembered what you were talking about (and responded thus in my long spiel above), but can't seem to find it, is there any chance you can point me to the relevant post(s)? I want to make sure I'm defending what I think I'm defending. And whether I have any right to attack you for bringing it up.

[Eldarion]

Just checking in.

I don't really get remus' argument/conversation... CES, you did sort of hint at WIFOM (I assume this is what I think it is); but I wouldn't attack it as hard as it has been. Maybe I'm being too warm-hearted, but it seems he (CES) was complementing you (Peter) and kind of fumbled the wording when restating it in his next post; it's fine to point out that's it's not an auto-defence, but it didn't really seem to be that persuasive of a [scum-]fallacy.
Nocmen was definitely fishing in

his

deduction of Peter's comment as a semi-'doctor claim'; this was well-pointed out by CES (as it should be by an IC). Nocmen still seems to think it was a claim and posted as such with "...I think though he did just slip up accidentally, and I am a complete dumbass for pointing it out to the scum." I personally don't think there's anything to back this up, Peter's reasoning was purely hypothetical, and was from the point of view that he was the most likely target and as such would have been protected by another player/doctor.

This is what I've got so far, dig in.

[Eldarion]

(CES's post wasn't up when I started).

CES has a solid argument there, it makes reasonable sense. I think it defends his point as far as WIFOM goes, it doesn't

prove

anything, but it shouldn't be dismissed as a scumtell.

[Eldarion]

I don't think remus' behaviour on page 3 has been adequately dealt with. There was a lot on that page that made me really think that he was scum. It hasn't really been shown that what he was doing was newbie (he has game experience prior to this) or that it was viable pro-town action.

The page 3-4 scenario has been one of the most active for the people who are still here and alive.

vote: CES

For trying to pregame lynch me. Seriously dude, was that even legal?

...

This post led to a lot of scum calls and the like. There was nothing in this post to indicate that it may be joking. As remus says below, "... a poorly justified joke is much more useful...", this may be true, but it's also incredibly dangerous as by definition it is will at best make intelligent townies suspicious of you and at worst result in town bandwagoning town. Don't get me wrong, it

can

be useful, but in this game there's no way for anyone to verify anything (except in victory/defeat), and so everything must be well justified or self-evident, and the latter is very rare. On this basis one can't possibly be expected to believe you when you jump up and yell, "I'm just joking, to get scum to show themselves"; it's just not feasible. Even I thought about posting something like this to draw out scum, it took all of about 2 seconds to realize why it was a terrible plan.

... GL, in the random voting stage, a non-random but poorly justified joke is much more useful. A random vote, people shrug off. However, I gave a reason for a non-significant vote and made it seemed like I cared about it (as I did know that it was a joke), and have thus gained valuable information based upon the reactions of everyone.

I think I said why the above post is not adequate defense already. It also suffers from the same sort of claim as the one below.

the information is written plainly on the thread, for it is not my response that I am looking for but everyone elses.

My vote is already cast. It will stay cast until someone acts scummy enough to remove it and place a vote upon them.

I (and many others) posted why this was a terrible defence at the time, and this particular claim is why I bring up the remus subject again. Read post 71 on for a refresher.

His defense:

...
The point though, Peter, to me sitting on information, as you put it (which I still don't think that I did) is to give everyone time to form their own opinions. It is a very bad idea to run along behind an analyst and use his posts as the basis for your votes. I did this in newbie 300, behind SV, and he ended up being scum. I say this right now so that everyone here will formulate his or her own opinions on the game...

I don't think this is a good enough reason. Especially as you apparently gained valuable information on who was scum on page 3 and we are yet to see the fruits of your labour.

Remus also had motive:

Any votes during the random vote stage shouldn't appear as true attacks. They are merely used to jump-start the game and gather reactions. If you do get two random votes, it is not something to worry about: remember, they are baseless, and there most likely isn't any argument against you at that point.

The way remussaidow responds to CES' pre-game comment strikes me as very scummy. Reacting in that way is a pretty strong tell. In addition, it looks more so scummy when he begins 'attacking' other players (I use this term loosely, but you can see that he does say things towards some others). I'm not entirely sure he's scum at this point, but it's the best lead I can find:

(I edited out GL's vote for remus)

The difference between GL and I, is twofold: GL was an IC who suspected him and was inherently a bigger threat, and I was almost inactive, both in my offense on remus (which I didn''t post about much in the build-up to N1) and my posts were quite sporadic. That could be why GL got lynched.

I don't think I missed too much here, this is as succinctly as I can put my thinking on remus at the moment.

[Eldarion]

My layout is never very clear and I must apologize about that, I just type things as they pop into my head and as such it's not very ordered, on rereading my post it seems some of the points could use more introduction. Esp. the point where I just dived into the differences between GL and I, this was mainly to deal with the point: "If you're so vehemently convinced of remus' guilt, and he is guilty, then why are you still alive?" Thought I'd nip it in the bud before it came up.

Also, if you don't understand what I'm trying to say anywhere, please tell me and I'll try to make it more clear; I don't want to have a lot of vaguely important sounding phrases that don't mean or contribute anything */me frowns at certain people*.

I don't think a FoS is required by me here, it can be taken for granted.

[Eldarion]

Well...we know there are two scum left in this town. One of them is CES/Remus, and who knows who the other one is.

I trust CES with how he covered himself, and to be honest if hes not scum, then Remus definitly has to be.

Vote:[EDIT]

I'm not voting at this point: how the hell can you claim to know that one of CES/Remus is scum?!

I'm gonna chuck an

FoS

on that.

[Eldarion]

I still don't get how you can risk the game on a vote for Remus though; It only takes 1 vote for the game to be lost at this point and you're willing to risk the game (I'm willing to accept you're town for this hypothesis) on CES's rather weak argument that he's town. You said that one of CES/Remus is town, saying that CES argued well on one point does

not

take him out of the equation. Right now I'm hoping that either you or remus is scum, because otherwise this vote could end very badly...

[Eldarion]

You're logic is faulty Nocmen. Saying that theres a doubt in your mind about the scumminess of CES means just about nothing about how likely I am to be scum. Because liklihoods are not certainties.

It is an understatement to say that I am mildly surprised you feel confident enough to not respond to my attack on you, especially with Nocmen's vote on you.

[Eldarion]

Only one of them has to be scum for no lynch to occur (or, assuming the other scum is smart, extra votes either). I currently believe Nocmen+Remus or Nocmen + CES are the two best (most likely) scum partner candidates (my paranoia keeps telling me that CES and Peter are just a really, really convincing scum duo; putting as much distance between themselves for the whole thread, and then agreeing to put the nail in town's coffin, but that's very fanciful; and there is actually nothing that points towards this).

[Eldarion]

eldarion, please point me to your accusation, I don't know where it is.

Post 285, read the whole thing; extract below.

I don't think remus' behaviour on page 3 has been adequately dealt with. There was a lot on that page that made me really think that he was scum. It hasn't really been shown that what he was doing was newbie (he has game experience prior to this) or that it was viable pro-town action...

[Eldarion]

theres only two people in the game who currently can know who clearly to vote for. and only one person who shouldn't consider voting for CES.

That is logically fallacious in so many ways I don't even know where to begin; begging the question, bifurcation, this statement has got 'em all.

[Eldarion]

You know, I feel really stupid for trusting CES earlier. To be honest, its gone down to a toss up between Remus and CES, and hell, im even leaning towards CES now.

[EDIT- I like editing out votes and unvotes, feels safer]

Oddly CES, that is the same reason I'm not voting for you.

There has been a pretty sound proposal that one of you two is scum, and has now been generally agreed upon by everyone except you two.
The only way I can make sense of your reactions on this page is if you are both scum. If one of you were scum then I would be vehemently trying to get the other guy lynched on this bandwagon (esp from nocmen, who decided to unvote instead of reinforcing his position); the other guy should be trying to prove as coherently as possible that he is town and that thus the other guy is the scum.
It would make a lot of sense on the other hand if they were both scum. It seems that at night they discussed killing GL & CES and thought that CES would be the easiest to kill during the day (due to Peter's attacks on him, and my occasional jab); it is also very possible to try and do a little intra-voting to get some innocence established in order to get CES, not well planned, but it makes sense with no need for the introduction of an especially elaborate scheme.

[Eldarion]

Oh well, it was good fun.

You played a very good game Peter; Nocmen was actually who I wanted to vote for today, but only because he was the best 'partner' fit for any scum that I imagined. I'm a bit embarrassed by my rather harsh attack on remus now, but I played it as I saw it.

You probably won me on the first day Peter, CES had doubt on him since the second page, remus since the third, nocmen's posted always struck me as bare-minimum and a bit dirty (but apparently it worked well enough). Only Peter's and GL's seemed rational enough to put faith in. Killing GL was genius, well played.

Remus, I'm really quite surprised at your playing, mais alors.

I'm also a little disappointed with NaR ruining the first day, but don't let it take all the pleasure out of winning.

I was played into bandwagoning onto you CES, I'm sorry. It was easy to believe that one of the ICs was going to be mafia and on page 2 I was too eager to attack anything I saw (first game jumpiness I think), built a solid platform for suspition.

I tried my best to be objective, and I learnt a lot from this game, thanks guys.

GG.

[Eldarion]

In all, good game. Eldarion, i feel you played an incredibly level headed townie and if there were "Best Player in Mini Game 320 awards" I would give you the trophy.

-Peter

Haha, you're just saying that because I complemented you so heavily on your townness, I guess that

would

make one feel a bit guilty. I actually thought about that as I was writing your summary, "hey, what if I'm making a complete ass of myself by saying that Peter is playing an awesome game as town, oh well..." and look what happens.