Newbie 1143 - Game Over

[Ozzie72]

/confirm

[Ozzie72]

Vote: Haylen

Too many words for a "confirm" post.

[Ozzie72]

BTW, thanks for having me. Good luck!

[Ozzie72]

vote

:saldyn

I see early signs of collusion with saldyn and Gen_Wolf. With little explanation, Gen_Wolf came to the protection of saldyn from Effortless' vote. I'm curious to see how these two act in the future. For now, my vote is for saldyn. I urge everyone to join me in this effort. If saldyn is guilty, I propose to hang Gen_Wolf next, in that he is also a mafia member. If saldyn is innocent, I propose we do not hang Gen_Wolf in the next day phase.

Please explain further. How can there be a basis for this so early? Explain it like I'm new, 'cause I am.

[Ozzie72]

Haylen's Questions:

1. Is there any time coming up where we can expect you to not be very active?

There's no specific date or time that I know of at the moment. My daytime access may be limited, but I can usually sneak off to the bathroom for a sit-and-read.

2. Have you familiarized yourself with Mafia Discussion and the Wiki?

Yep, I've been reading quite a bit over the last few days. For instance, I know now that Haylen's "not a random vote" for me could be categorized as a OMGUS vote.

3. Have you read at least one completed game on site?

I'm currently in the process of reading through completed newbie games.

4. What is your experience level? How many games have you played? Are there any complete newbies in the house? Does everyone know how the game in general works.

I'd classify myself as a novice, but not a complete newbie. I played Werewolf in college and have participated in a handful of online WW games on another forum.

[Ozzie72]

Ozzie seemed to have done the same thing but you only call one person out for it?

He didn't do exactly the same and lizk's version is more suspicious. In any case I don't see the point in focusing more than one person at a time.

Focusing on one person could let their partner slip away if they are scum or scum to slip away if they are town. So focusing on one player souly could let scum slip by unnoticed.

I guess I should have been more specific. I don't think me focusing on more than one person makes sense at this time. If you disagree, fine, but I don't see the point in discussing it.

I still encourage everyone to vote for lizk. I feel like Gen_Wolf is getting bandwagonned for not expressing himself clearly. I can easily see him getting lynched without us getting much of it at all.

I find this very scummy. Frst of all avoiding discussion is something mafia would do. And it sounds like you're saying we should vote for Lizk only ecause Wolf is getting wagonned.
Lizk's version? If you haven't noticed, Ozzie and Saldyn have contributed just about the same amount to this game as each other: Nada.

Just as well, Saldyn, you have two posts so far. One was you're confirm post, the other is just a vote for Wolf. Show me some reasoning behind that vote and some contribution to the game please.

Thomith's right -- I did basically the same thing as lizk. Why cast a vote for one instead of the other? And then to say she's not contributing...how much contribution can any of us really make at this point? We're casting about in the dark hoping to pick up clues that will serve us later, yes? The more I read through these sequences, the more it feels like there is an effort here to generate some early discontent and suspicion.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know, but I smell something fishy. I would like to hear something more from lizk and saldyn, but for now...

UNVOTE: Haylen
VOTE: effortless

[Ozzie72]

Ozzie seemed to have done the same thing but you only call one person out for it?

He didn't do exactly the same and lizk's version is more suspicious. In any case I don't see the point in focusing more than one person at a time.

Focusing on one person could let their partner slip away if they are scum or scum to slip away if they are town. So focusing on one player souly could let scum slip by unnoticed.

I guess I should have been more specific.

I don't think me focusing on more than one person makes sense at this time. If you disagree, fine, but I don't see the point in discussing it.

I still encourage everyone to vote for lizk. I feel like Gen_Wolf is getting bandwagonned for not expressing himself clearly. I can easily see him getting lynched without us getting much of it at all.

I think this is the statement that sticks out most in my mind. You called for more discussion and called someone out specifically because you felt they weren't trying to generate discussion, but then you come out with this? If I'm misinterpreting this, please let me know. I thought the point right now was to discuss as much as we can and to spread focus around to many suspects? Suggesting that we not discuss something because you don't see the point is anti-Town. If that wasn't your intention, you should probably clarify.

[Ozzie72]

I think this is the statement that sticks out most in my mind. You called for more discussion and called someone out specifically because you felt they weren't trying to generate discussion, but then you come out with this? If I'm misinterpreting this, please let me know. I thought the point right now was to discuss as much as we can and to spread focus around to many suspects? Suggesting that we not discuss something because you don't see the point is anti-Town. If that wasn't your intention, you should probably clarify.

Accusing one person carries more weight than accusing 3. If I accused 3 people none of them would actually feel in danger. I'm accusing lizk because I feel like she might actually be a good candidate to lynch, depending on her answers.

I don't want to discourages

others

from discussing someone else, I just don't feel like I should participate in that myself, for now.

OK, I can get behind this. "Focusing" in your context means just focusing a vote (or consideration for a vote). As long as you're still considering others, I think we're on the same page.

My thinking has been that if you see something suspicious and do a quick vote switch to that person, you might get a reaction that can provide information. Scum wants to stay just out of focus, and if they think they've slipped up and drawn the spotlight onto themselves, they either will react to defend / deflect OR will go deep hoping that the gaffe goes unnoticed. Either way, it's pro-Town to take an aggressive stance against anything that looks suspicious or strikes a discordant note.

[Ozzie72]

BTW, it feels like we're all over the map here. I understand it comes with the territory to some extent, but it seems worse than in other online games. Then again, I've never played with a set deadline for day lengths. For those of you that have experience on this forum, is this just a function of the set timing, or are we just more dysfunctional than others?

[Ozzie72]

I'm accusing lizk because I feel like she might actually be a good candidate to lynch, depending on her answers.

You can't call one person out for something and label them scum when others did the same thing. This heightens my suspicions of you.

Also @

ozzie

the first few pages of votes are basically just throwing accusations around and trying to find things that are scummy to make people slip up from too much pressure.

EBWOP

Right, I get that. Like I said, that's to be expected, it just seemed more scattered than usual. Okay, carry on...

[Ozzie72]

I'll be AFK this evening as my daughter is celebrating her successful participation in a stage production of "The Wizard of Oz." However, before I go I'll also give a little breathing room to effortless so that we have time to explore other suspects.

UNVOTE: effortless

[Ozzie72]

VOTE: Hazard with a Glove

After catching up on the weekend, I have to say things have taken quite a turn. I've had my suspicions about Thomith, but I think I can understand his context. We're all trying to gather information, and a good way to do it is to look at people with a critical eye and make them come into the light for examination. At this stage in the game, to do less could be considered scummy (yes, this is dangerously WIFOMy, but Day 1 has to be taken at face value until more context is available.

This is what stuck out for me the most:

But lynching me for one thing definately wouldn't be a pro town thing to do.

We'll see just how true this turns out to be. Statements like this are tricky -- a Townie definitely doesn't want to die instead of scum, but there's always a little anti-Town sentiment in this thought, because it implies one person is more important than the town. For now, I'll live with it.

On another hand, I agree with calls for more examination of Hazard and saldyn. While it's still early, lowfliers are never good for the town. And specifically, I take issue with Hazard's "lynch all liars" remark regarding Thomith. As I stated above, Day 1 is about gathering information that is useful later. So Thomith made a play hoping to put some pressure on someone. I don't see that as necessarily a scum play this early. Maybe it turns out later that it was, or maybe this is again WIFOM, but at this stage I'm more suspicious of someone calling him out on it and only on that one point.

My vote's on Hazard for now because of his post voting for Thomith. Not the v

[Ozzie72]

EBWOP:

Not the vote itself, but the reasoning. Hazard, you say you don't see how his "lie" can't be scummy, then vote for him, then hedge your bet by saying you don't think he's scum and just want him to explain. I'd like to hear you explain a bit more about this.

[Ozzie72]

UNVOTE: Hazard with a Glove

I just realized that it was effortless who did what I credited to Hazard. My apologies, but I still want to hear more from him. And for now:

VOTE: effortless

[Ozzie72]

UNVOTE: effortless

@effortless: You're right. I had the thread in my head correct and then reversed myself after I re-read through post 105. I'm sorry for confusing you with Hazard.

My doubts are still strong with Hazard and saldyn, and I could also push on TravisB to see what shakes loose. For now, I'll go back to where I wanted to be this morning.

VOTE: Hazard with a Glove

[Ozzie72]

Haylen, I hope you're feeling better soon. I know migraines are horrible to suffer through.

[Ozzie72]

So we're one vote away from a lynch. Hazard, do you have anything to say in your defense?

[Ozzie72]

So Hazard's profile page says

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He has 2 votes, a FOS and he's the centre of conversation in the thread. He's also outside the 48 hour deadline for posting. So he logs on and decides to post nothing? How does that make sense for a townie? And he's not even a newbie.

At this point I'm having trouble seeing him as anything but scum.

vote:Hazard

(Same goes for lizk, except she had fewer reasons to post, so it's much less conclusive)

I happen to agree with you on the vote, but this is an honest newbie question: Is this type of metagaming allowed? Even if it is, is it fair?

[Ozzie72]

for now VOTE: Ozzie explain every reason you voted for hazard and putting him at L-1 in detail.

This is why I voted for Hazard:

EBWOP:

Not the vote itself, but the reasoning. Hazard, you say you don't see how his "lie" can't be scummy, then vote for him, then hedge your bet by saying you don't think he's scum and just want him to explain. I'd like to hear you explain a bit more about this.

And Gen_Wolf put Hazard at L-1.

Think for a minute, would BOTH scum slip up over 2 weeks from deadline? I am not ruling out effortless as scum i am saying that i doubt both scum would slip up that early. (not saying they can't saying i find it unlikely)

This is WIFOM. And you finding it unlikely has just as much weight as any of us finding anything likely or unlikely at this stage...which is to say, not much.

I have suspicions about the other low-fliers, but without more from Hazard, I'm OK with my vote where it is.

[Ozzie72]

Welcome daybid! Thanks for replacing saldyn, and welcome to the town. What do you make of the discussion so far?

[Ozzie72]

@TravisB: You've got 7 posts in an 8-page thread. Now that youve gotten the prod post out of the way, would you care to contribute something to the conversation? What are your thoughts on Hazard? Do you have thoughts about anyone else?

[Ozzie72]

Ozzie apart from hazard do you find anyone else scummy?
(before you ask me the same question i don't find anyone as scummy as him but i feel the sal spot was quite scummy but it just got replaced into so we will see how the replacement plays out.)

I'm leaning Town on both you and effortless (unless you're both running a gambit with your Bickersons routine; we'll see). I have very little read on lizk000, TravisB, and Gen_Wolf. I think I'm also leaning Town on Haylen, but I've caught myself thinking that the IC probably won't be scum in a game full of newbies, and I slap myself (figuratively) every time I think that.

I originally thought saldyn was scum and was trying to fly under the radar, but his replacement in the game makes me think he was probably Town (no upside to scum lurking enough to get booted), so I'll give Daybid an initial Town read as well.

I have a thought on Hazard that I need to more fully articulate, so I'll save that for a separate post.

Mod Question:

Is it possible that roles are changed when a player is replaced, or does the new player inherit the same role as the replaced player?

[Ozzie72]

That was a really good exchange between lizk and Thomith. Wish we had more of those.

+1 on this. Reminds me of the exchanges between Thomith and you.

I kinda agree Wolf's comment on Thomith. Sometimes I wish you slowed down and posted what you really thought, instead of trying to create something.

Another +1. One of the reasons I'm now leaning Town on Thomith is because he is pressuring a lot of people, and we will get a lot of good information out of it once we have some flip info, but it's a little hard to follow sometimes.

[Ozzie72]

After reading through the pages. I also believe that the host wouldn't have 2 newbies be scum but one SE or IC + newbie. How Thomith has been playing has been very open and active through the most part as he wants to negate all attempts of him getting lynched. IMO, FoS is on Thomith as he plays way too highly of himself and just wants to survive as long as possible. If Thomith was town and too clear his name why not take the day 1 lynch. Honestly that would open up the game much more as I would put my FoS on Hazard as Thomith was not scum, so on to Haylen since he is the IC. If this seems scummy to lynch the more experienced players, but it makes more sense as it will just leave the newbies against the newbies and have it on a even playing field as it would be 2 townies vs 1 newbie scum. He will not have the experience of playing scum and will be an easy tell by the time it gets down to that point. This is what I am thinking would be the best for the town.

A Townie taking a lynch just to move us to a new day doesn't help us unless it's to save a Town role-player, and there's no way we were close to that at the point where Thomith was getting run up. I have similar suspicions about role distribution, but I think you're off-base here running with your belief without trying to get some confirmation (see my mod question). Personally, I'd rather have the experienced players around for a while if possible, because I'd like to learn a few things. If they're scum, all the better. Once we lynch them and the game ends, hopefully we can get insights about how they played certain points. But the goal is to get rid of the scum, whomever they are.

It would NEVER be "best for the town" to just kill off the experienced players in the hope that the scum is hiding among the newbies.

[Ozzie72]

Vote Daybid

have it on a even playing field as it would be 2 townies vs 1 newbie scum.

How would a townie know this?

Whoa. I missed this completely. I'm also confused about the numbers here. They don't make sense within the context of your post, Daybid, so can you clarify what you meant?

[Ozzie72]

@Ozzie: The roles are never changed through replacement. If player B replaces player A, player B will get the same role as player A.

Thank you for clarifying that, Flameaxe!

[Ozzie72]

Vote Daybid

have it on a even playing field as it would be 2 townies vs 1 newbie scum.

How would a townie know this?

Whoa. I missed this completely. I'm also confused about the numbers here. They don't make sense within the context of your post, Daybid, so can you clarify what you meant?

I was saying that if there was a mafia in the experienced players it would take 3 days for us to lynch all of them if neither Thomith or Hazard were scum. That's also 3 nights so 6 people are dead leaving 3 people 2 townie 1 scum. If the set up was 1 newbie scum + 1 experienced scum then rester are newbies. But apparently it's possible for 2 newbies to be scum.

I'm not pushing for this anymore since it's completely wrong.

Okay, I get it now, and you're right...about it being completely wrong.

With our luck, we'd lynch 3 townies...game over.

[Ozzie72]

Lastly, I think this vote on me is pretty OMGUS. You have been jumping from person to person without spending any real time or significant effort on anyone. IMO your recent methods have just felt like false scumhunting.

This sums up the biggest red flag I have on Thomith, but I think that, this early in the game, it's a lesser evil than the lack of effort from players like TravisB and Hazard. I understand Thomith's reasoning behind his methods. I still don't understand what contributions Hazard and TravisB are making to the scumhunt.

[Ozzie72]

I was the first person to post about suspecting you, not hazard. It was me, and then gen, and then hazard. He may have voted first, but I suspected you first, and I didn't do it without explanation. Regardless, I don't think that agreeing with other's logic periodically is necessarily a bad thing. Why should that be punished? And other than the comment about daybid, when have I accused someone w/o giving my own logic to back it up.
Yes, you have posted more than me, but you haven't been around for more of the game than me; you don't have more information than me; our time spent here has been the same, so I still think your vote hopping is very suspicious!
You say that you focus on everyone and not just a few people, which is great and dandy, but the problem that I have with it is the fact that at the beginning of the game that was the exact opposite of what you were doing and what you said you thought was a good strategy.
You're scum. lynch tomith, he'll flip scum, and we can find the other one tomorrow

And what happens if we lynch Thomith and he flips Town? You're next, you know.

[Ozzie72]

I expected I would be able to post at work, but this week ended up being as busy as hell.

I know I've done this a few times already :/ I'll catch up when I get home from work. I'll read more carefully on the Hazard situation, because the last time I flipped through it I saw it more of effortless trying to steamroll him, but I have a feeling there was more to it that I missed. I'll be a little reserved on my opinion until I understand what I read.

Is this what's known as active lurking?

[Ozzie72]

That's unfortunate, but it's a consequence of us posting and actively trying to make things happen. This is always going to look suspicious. There's no way around it. If I never post my opinion there's nothing to disagree with. Nothing to see as suspicious.

Very often throughout the thread I've noticed Effortless explain away any of his scummy-appearing actions as "normal." If it looks suspicious, it's suspicious. Looking suspicious does not make it NOT suspicious.

I've noticed since about page 5 or 6 Thomith has been running the table pretty well. He has been avoiding a lot of flak (despite having two votes) by going after others. He seems to be pretty good at pointing the finger. He goes on endlessly attacking others, and I believe that's in a desperate attempt to draw attention away from himself, and make others appear to be a higher chance

Because of this,

Vote: Thomith

I am going to vote for Thomith. At this point, I believe he is scumming the waters, and needs to be removed.

See, the more I think about Thomith and how outspoken he's been, the less inclined I am to believe that he's scum. This is WIFOM, but I have a hard time believing that he'd be so outspoken if he is scum. I posted earlier that it could be a gambit specifically designed to buy him cred, but I think we could easily draw some conclusions about him after Day 1 plays out. I still suspect our low posters more than Thomith, but it's hard to point to anything specific without more investigation of them.

To help this along, and to put my money where my mouth is, I'll move my vote in support of him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lizk000

So, lizk, let's hear more from you...

[Ozzie72]

In other news I no longer find Haylen suspicious and I found 1 (one) post from Hazard that didn't read scummy. Doesn't quite balance out the others though.

Can you please give more specifics on what has swayed you about Haylen and what you still see as scummy for Hazard? This would help the rest of us out a great deal.

[Ozzie72]

For Haylen, I just found some useful comments while reading. I'm also pretty sure she wouldn't lurk just because she's scum, so she must be busy.

So you can quote a post to support your argument against Thomith, but we only get "I just found some useful comments while reading" for Haylen? What gives? Seems to me like your soft-pedaling support for Haylen without trying to be pinned down on specific reasoning. Could it be that you're covering your scum buddy while trying to stay at arm's length at the same time?

[Ozzie72]

In the meantime, what do you think about the Liz-Thomith argument?

Here's the post that should answer this question for you.

[Ozzie72]

FOS: effortless

"Just inflating my post count"...

[Ozzie72]

@Ozzie: Not really understanding the "Inflating the post count..." care to explain?

I was trying to get some reaction from effortless. It was a jab at his same comment a few posts earlier. He called me out, but not in the way I was expecting, so I'm OK with effortless for now.

[Ozzie72]

@Ozzie: Not really understanding the "Inflating the post count..." care to explain?

I was trying to get some reaction from effortless. It was a jab at his same comment a few posts earlier. He called me out, but not in the way I was expecting, so I'm OK with effortless for now.

OTOH, I'm not ok with you at all. I still don't understand what happened in posts 304-306. You went from almost cordial to hostile in such a short time.

It was as if you felt attacked in some way and wanted to strike back. It was really, really weird.

It was all just to change things up and see how you'd react to it. It honestly wasn't because I thought you had attacked me at all, but rather because I thought the discussion had started to focus only on a couple of players. I wanted to shake things up, but I obviously did it badly.

FYI, I'm going to be scarce until tonight, as my schedule today sucks.

[Ozzie72]

Sorry I missed the start of the day, work got crazy all of a sudden. I may be scarce this week but will try to keep up.

Hazard's post doesn't feel like a scum slip or a gambit, but I'm not convinced like Haylen that lizk's out

[Ozzie72]

Sorry I missed the start of the day, work got crazy all of a sudden. I may be scarce this week but will try to keep up.

Hazard's post doesn't feel like a scum slip or a gambit, but I'm not convinced like Haylen that lizk's out

EBWOP

that lizk's out of the woods. Haylen, what makes you think she's Town?

[Ozzie72]

I reviewed Day 1 and thought it might help to post my thoughts.

Thomith did a real good job of gumming up the works. There's so much back-and-forth because of him, and about him, that the Day 1 posts are pretty cluttered. However, there's a sequence I keep coming back to, which starts with post 48 and continues through post 100. It's the sequence where effortless is generating a lot of heat on lizk and there's a lot of arguing about motives. Here's the post from lizk that started the whole thing:

1. no everything is pretty free
2. yeah, I'm trying to get a handle on it all
3. yep! i've read a few
4. I'm a complete newbie the only experience I have is live games

VOTE: ozzie

From that point, effortless goes on a crusade against her for, among other things, posting without contributing anything. He railed on her for that post and said it was scummy that she hadn't contributed anything about the posts to that point.

Her post was #45.

No one

had contributed anything at that point.

Haylen, forget my question to you. I think lizk is Town, too.

VOTE: effortless