Newbie 1131 - Game over

[StefanB]

Hello all.

I am one of your SEs. We are not teachers like the IC, there is no reall skill involved to become SE, you just have to finish 2 games, which I did. (Not much more, but since that is a question later, I will answer it, then.

So the qustions:

Demix wrote:
Question: Do you like being a vanilla townie? Why or why not?

YES, I do. I prefer to play town. For me its more fun.
For the powerrolepart vs normal towniepart, I can't say anythink, because I haven't played as one long enough yet. (From my finished games only on a marathon for a short time)
VT gives you complete freedom without worry and everything else (powerrole wise) I see only as bonus.

Haolas:

How's your experience with mafia, whether on- or off-site?

Also, what time zone are you in?

1 complete game, 1 finished and 2 I had to replace out onside, some RLGames.
Timezone: GMT +1 or +2 (We are one hour away from Great Britain, but I think there are now +1 as well.

[StefanB]

So the game so far:

Very suspicios of the mafia

Legend of Mafia what do you mean with the post?

Demyz and Haola: What are your own answers to your questions?

Demyz why did you ask that specific question? If you want to wait until everyone answered them okay, but it's an interesting question to ask.

Vote: VitaminR

Post 16 makes me nervous, that don't trust me reminds me to much of a certain character in a book. I don't want to "I told you you should have trust me!", moment later. (Perhaps I read the wrong book in the moment)

Just to everyone: You may give reasons for your vote, even if they tend to be one the sily side at the beginning of day 1.

And if you have a problem with understanding somethink I say (I can be of the confusing side and English is my second language) tell me and I try to make it more understandable.

[StefanB]

Legend: And what has 21 to do with the game. Vote real players please not imaginary ones.

[StefanB]

What????
The mafia would ask you to play the game???
What is so different from my thinking and this point:

At the start of the game, the common thing to do is to place a vote randomly to try to initiate discussion. Putting a little bit of pressure on someone makes them easier to read.

from our IC, which is normal gametatic.

I wan't you to make seens.

And if you think I am mafia, why no vote?

[StefanB]

VitaminX:

Tongue in check or apearing to be inocent. Sometimes the best lie is to tell the truth.

Well nervous is not really what I would call myself. Confused by LegendofMafia (who I know is from another side an wanted to invite players from here for a challenche) is more like it, correction by exactly four of his five posts. Overeager, yes! Nervous because of one post I don't even understand, (And that is not the first one from Legend) and your vote on me. I fully admite that is more than I have gotten in other games, that's true, but why do you call me nervous.
And what do you think about Legend of Mafia?

[StefanB]

VitaninR: Okay nervous is your interpretation of me. Beeing worried is not the reason for going into the direction of LoM. Why should I be worried about having one RVS vote and one baseless acusation.
My problem is more that I don't understand LoM one bit and this is one think I don't like, but if I believe Forehead7, that this is unfortunatly normal for him.
Of course it all comes back to interpretation of actions. I can't prove that your interpretation is wrong, and I have been know to react badly under pressure. (in my shamegame and unfortunatly I was VT in there)

Gingy: Good question not an easy one:
Well in that play were I got lynched: Typing to slow and not attacking strong enough. But that was marathon.
In my scumnewbiegame: Not planning ahead (okay I don't do that in most of my newbiegames, but in that scumgame it was really a problem), to willing to compromise for a lynch, sending my scumpartner to L-1 to get him hamered (thought was necesary), searching for scum becomes harder to fake if the game continues.

But my biggest flaw is that I am moodswingy to much and unfurtunatly that has nothing to do with alligment.

[StefanB]

Okay to get that out:

LoM had 2 votes, now has one, how is this a big bandwagon?

Tajun: Why do you think that 2 votes will led to a lynch necessary down the line? LoM is in the moment in no danger. And then you voted someone who isn't there. Hell of a safe vote.

Unvote

Vote: Tajun

I gave my paranoia a rest, I will probably get a read on him when the day continues. LoM is somethink to get back to later also. By then there are 3 posibilitys:
1. He improved his game.
2. He replaced out.
3. He still is a headace, who is a problem for us all.

If it is 3 we will have to look in the situation further. Please LoM make it 1.

[StefanB]

Tajun: Good explanation, you know it can be days before we hear of AndroidDreams, it can be that he will be replaced. So you are voting someone that is perhaps never going to read it. How is that useful? He won't come runing in, if you call and vote him.

Demyz: (Yes right that time) I don't think they mean it in a rolesense more in a personality sense...

[StefanB]

forehead: Nothing of this. It's a quicktopic on this side: http://www.quicktopic.com, given to them by the mod. Normally (Always in newbiegames) they are only allowed to talk in the night there.
Why do you need to know this?

[StefanB]

Tajun: After watching his profile, AwesomeDreams has last visited the board at the 14.Jul, so it is one. (If have personaly seen players checking in a few days later, but he hasn't read anything, if profile and boardtimming in the game are at sinc)
Demyx, Demyx, Demyx, Demyx, Demyx, Demyx, Demyx should work to get the name right next time.
I have another question, but I have to ask our mod a question first.

[StefanB]

AD: Why vote someone for having most votes? Perhaps he hasn't so much soon.

Unvote:

Forehead: If you know LoMs playstile and he is playing normal, is your vote random, or is there another reason?
Gingy: You posted only onliners until now, more thaughts about the game?

[StefanB]

Gingy, Forehead, you have played forumgames before, can you link us to your games. (must be complete so don't link to somethink onegoing, even if your are dead SIDERULES!!!!!!)

[StefanB]

Okay, it's time to stopp WIFOM as all yourself.
My first reaction was also thinking Forehead was town. But it isn't really a proof. Does it make him scummy, no. So let's put it as null (or even slight towntell) and end confusing ourselves.
Other taking a short look at the games, LoM doesn't come of in his first game as more trying as in this, so hm.
Not having a clear scumread,

Vote: Gingy

, more passive than aggresive check, okay posting onliners is not really my cup of tea.

[StefanB]

I think epicmafia can't be linked, but I was asking about his forumgame, that he talked about in 34.
(Heared enough of epicmafia to not think that will give us interesting information.

AndroidDreams: From what distracted? From myself? How do you get to reads.

Tajun: How is my attacking your vote, the same thing as VitaminR attacking your vote.

Demyx: We don't have really a lot of lynches, that we can easy use policitylynches, we have 3 times to do it correct, than we lose. (not counting the miracleposibility or that we do it correct the first or second time) Normally this is to decieded at the deadline. (And hear it's more a choice to go for scummy or not contributing) The long deadlines make it more difficult for scum to hide. (They still win too many games)

[StefanB]

LoM: Ever heard of show don't tell.
Give us somethink to help us not lynching you.

Demyx: We have some time. A decision about a policitylynch is someone we can do shortly before deadline, now is the wrong time, way to early.

AndroidDreams:
Where to start. IC I think this would be a wonderful moment for a little gametheory about scumhunting. (sorry I hope you have somethink prepared)
I can only speak for myself. I don't have a strong suspicion about who is mafia yet. So of course I am asking a lot of diferent people. In my opinion every player here is like a detective trying to find out who the bad guys are. (exect Mafia who try to fake it)
A cop is a role, who has at the moment (if he is in the game) not more information than any vanillatownie. I advise you to read the sampleroles and the setup on page 1, it is interesting and knowing what powerroles can do can help making sense later.
Also:

But being a nublet, I'm just following the most advanced seeming players.that's why I vote for who has the most votes.

Doesn't compute. What do you mean by most advanced seeming players. Well the 3 most experienced players are at the moment voting 3 different people. And don't forgot 2 people here are mafia. I advise to use your own head and try to make sense of the players. Think about everythink people post.

[StefanB]

Tajun: I don't know if chatbased games are even stored, that is the reason that I doubt they can be linked. (Not that relevant forrum and chatmafia are quite different)
That is the reason I was after the one forrumgame.
Not policitylynching early on day 1 doesn't mean that I want LoM at endgame. If he stays and doesn't improve a lot it could become necessary, if there isn't someone very scummy. But that's a question that we should start to ask ourselves about the 1. of August not before, imho.
Just somethink I forgot in my first post.

[StefanB]

Demyx: My position on policitylynches is that some times they can be necessary, but I always hope for better solutions. If we still have that problem near deadline and I don't have a clear suspect for beeing scummy (and not beeing unreadable and bad) I will gladly help lynching LoM. Have never played with a player who wasn't trying, (worst was a replacement who needed more than 10 days to read the game) so policitylynches (not counting lynch all Liars and Lynch all Lurkers) are somethink theoreticly up until now.
I just hope to get more from other players.
So yes LoM has to earn not getting lynched when deadline comes, Gingy has to become more playing and AndroidDream has to get in the game, that are the 3 problemplayers at the moment. (And at last one of them is town)

[StefanB]

Demyx: One point is how many lynches are there on your board, that you have before you lose. (Assuming you don't lynch mafia) Here we have 2, then we have to lynch mafia or lose.

LoM: You are currently voting VitaminR, is he still your mainsuspect, or was that only RVS. What do you think of players now?

[StefanB]

Votes that are not bolded don't count. (Votebottum is an exection)

Demyx: Don't answer questions for other players, exspecially important ones. I would have like VitaminR to answer this question himself.

Android: I am pushing things, in my last game the mafia killed me, because I was to talkative for them.
Btw 143: Good post.

Also

Unvote:

I thought were my vote is helping at the moment.

Vote: Haola

, a player who is under the radar to much imho.

[StefanB]

Android: If you have someone who you are sure is scum, vote him/her.
The main point comes about, when you have no big scumreads than you vote a lurker.
Of course if we are near deadline there could be a point of having to make a compromise because a no lynch is really bad for town.
Execption I have only seen, when there are players, who are called deliberatly bad for the game and are practily better on the other side. If a player is known to screw up, town if he is town, then there might be a case for a policylynch. (Haven't been in a game where that happened, just heared about it)
So who do you think is scummy, vote them and give us a case.

[StefanB]

Hello Whiskers.

Mod: You said almost never, when would you count a non bolded vote?

I almost never count non-bolded votes.

I keep the language vague to allow for some wiggle room if I need it to make a fair ruling

. eg: There's a 99.999999% chance that I'm NEVER going to count a non-bolded vote. BUT, if I had to (for whatever reason), my rules set wording allows me to do so without breaking my own rules.

[StefanB]

Whiskers:
Read the whole game, no other tipp. Sometimes you can find scum in RVS, some players believe them to be the most important part of the game.
Sory don't have a list, what list do you want?
This vote came fast.

[StefanB]

And now Legend is on L-1, don't vote him fast.
Legend don't dare to selfhammer!!!!!!!
If someone want's to hammer, ask for a claim first. (If someone should claim at L-1 without it is a grey think, I would and start to defed yourself, LOM!!!!!!!)

[StefanB]

Legend: That's a mistake that most newbies make. Mafiaplayers are at last us likly to replace out as townies, imho. So replacing is null. In all games (that have finished) at last one mafiamember replace out or was replaced.
Also there are many players who prefer playing town, search on the first few pages, VT as topic.

I repeat the please from Whiskers, even if I have the feeling that you are ignoring me.

[StefanB]

So how do I stand on the LoMwaggon?
Well for me it's to early to lynch. I have nearly zero reads here.
What I think about LoM should be no secret. I think he is not playing the game. His role no one knows. Could be mafia could be town. Imposible to read.
So if I have a strong scumread I will vote that, if not than I will vote LoM near deadline, even if it is the hammer.
I tryed to get him to talk, I tryed to make sense of him, I have given up on him.
I think that should be nothink new for everyone.
It is my head vs my heart. My head is telling me that since LoM is not playing, there is a bigger chance for him to be town, even if his play is marginally better for scum.
My heart tells me that LoM is a headache and I would like to see him gone.

If you still think I hve no opinion on LoM, VitaminR be my guest. I know that isn't a good game from me, but at last I try somethink where you are defending the worst newbie I have ever seen and tunnel.
What is so scummy about me warning post. Null, I would understand, because to post that at the first L-1, I would regard as null because it's a damm job of any experienced player to make the dangers of L-1 clear. It should not get me towniepoints you are right.
Second Mr IC, holly hell of wrong:
I reacted to Legends acusion because they made no sense. He was a headache sind post 1.
I think I made my position on policitylynch clear. The are somethink new for me. I won't do them early because I kind of hope that a player gets better. In extreme cases the can be a good idea. LoM is a extreme case. If I find scum, I would rather lynch someone I am convinced is scum.
Have I got great reads this game, no. Have I good one read I am sure of no.
But it's perhaps time to trust my gut and ask myself why is this guy defending a nullread that much, while having a waggon he doesn't seem to be that convinced of himself.
Normally players like pressure on nullreads because that can clearify thinks of. If I fight for a lynch I am very convinced that a) The guy who is lynched looks very town.
B) I have scum.
So that doesn't really make sense.

Vote: VitaminR

Would it be to mean to ask you to show us a game with a worse VI than LoM?

[StefanB]

Mod:

Sorry to do that by I will be

VLA for the next 48 hours.

Noted, thanks.


Vel

Bevor the 48 hours are up you will probably have a post. (If nothing goes very wrong)
My point about LoMs playstile was: if you have a playstile like this, you are imposible to read and don't give scumtells and no conection to his partner.
It's a gamble but I can see scum take it.

[StefanB]

Wow, I may understand somethink wrong, but in case I don't:

Unvote:

Vote: Android Dreams

So you wrote:

I STILL get the most scum vibe from Demyx and StefanB.

And you vote Vitamin R for:

He has been after some of the big talkers for, what seems to me, no reason (both Demyx and StefanB) -which makes me think he's scared of them figuring out his intentions, throwing votes out real fast, as well as what the general concensus has been focused on. To me, he's going with the crowd when there is a big flow, but throwing in just enough insight to seem town.

So you are voting Vitamin R for going after your own suspects. If you think I am scummy, going after me shouldn't be a scumtell for other players. Going with the croud: I don't really see that of him, this game. He seems pretty independent, care to explain that.

Whiskers: Will you stop playing like you think your lynch is somethink good!!!! A lynch on a protownplayer should never be a goal. So getting yourself lynched is not a good way. Acepting this and thinking it's a good think is not playing to win. Try to losse that aditute. Play as good as you can can and make the mafia nightkill you, if you are a vanilla townie.


Haoala: It's not realy true. Whiskers is playing that he/she (are you male or female?) will get attention and knows it. Playing to stay under the raddar is deferent.
Of course that tells us more about the personality of Whiskers than the role.

[StefanB]

Haoalo: Yes even more for defences, unless some atack is really bad. If you don't understand it, asking questions to make it more clear is okay. Also an attack because a case is bad is definitly okay.

And the funny think about Android is that he is not really taking anythink back about VitaminR, he is acusing him in 5 lynes and than makes a 180 in the same post and agreas with him, to vote me.
What does his case against me:

But now I'm going to switch around and agree with VitR and Tajun that StefanB seems to have his feelings confused (like he wants to come off town while pushing us to lynch his target and can't keep track of it all), combined with my suspicions makes him undoubtedly scum

I have my feelings confused? What can't I get keep track of? (Names okay I am terrible with them this game) Who is my target that I want to get lynched? I voted mostly to get information before, I have some suspicion of VitaminR and you I find scummy. I have now my vote on someone that I am willing to lynch, before the vote on VitaminR I didn't play to lynch anyone.

I will talk about Tajuns case on me soon the Forum did just eat that part.

[StefanB]

Tajun: Whiskers is a townread, yes, at last for the moment.
But okay lets play this game.
Whiskers town look at my quote.
Whiskers scum, well shouldn't really play like that either. But if scum is playing to be lynched, I have no problem with it.

About LoM, him beeing a bigger probability of beeing town is just simple math. 6/8 is more than 2/8 (from my point of viev)
I am willing to vote him, if I don't have a scumread or no chance to have my scumread lynched. First makes the chance of him beeing scum bigger. (The more townreads you have the less got it is looking for the nullreads)
Second a lynch on a null, is better than a nolynch. A lynch on a townread would be terrible. (Exection about 1 hour before deadline)
I am also only discusing a potential scenario here. Not one that I am working at.

Also interesting timing. I have voted someone who I was suspicios now, after that came your post. You ignored the fact and the scummy behavior of Android in your post and your next afterwards. Than you fos him with mostly my reasons. Any reason why?

[StefanB]

And Whiskers: OMGOS is not the best reason to vote someone, emotionaly voting seldom is. (I have to master this myself in praxis)

[StefanB]

Okay don't hammer too early but we don't have to wait the whole time before the hammer.
Waiting has 2 reasons.
First we want to do somethink before the day ends. That can be to give the replacements time to give their imput. We could get one or 2 soon.
Second to give the person time to claim and to defend himself.
For the hammer, if you don't think you will be on before deadline. It's better to lynch a little bit early then to no-lynch. So having to wait until 6 hours before deadline is excesive, hammering now would be bad.

[StefanB]

Hello Johhog, hello hiplop, to hiplop if you are town, hope we don't loose that bad like in the last game together.

[StefanB]

We still have over a day. (about 29 hours if I count correctly)
No reads will not necessary screw you Johhog, I look forward to them.
I found it interesting, that both players have only a gutread on me, one town and one scum.
To be fair I have played with Hiplop and was town that game.
Whiskers: What exactly is your point?
Interesting about that Johhog is that he is not voting, and his scumreads are kind of weak.
("I find the person scummy, that is always scummy" and "Gut")
But we have a lot a townreads out.
I would say that Demyx, Tajun and Haoalo are definitly not a lynch for today.
(I personaly are sure about Demyx, not quite so sure about the other 2, but for today okay and would rather not lynch Whiskers)
Among the rest: AndroidDreams definitly.
A Hiplop or Johhogwaggon I will think about.
That is my position for day 1.
I will be back shortly before deadline. (have a long day tomorrow)

The claimpart was not bad btw. Android was on L-1, there was talk of lynching him.

[StefanB]

Unvote

[StefanB]

I believe that claim, unfortunatly it makes sense. (Caught mafia would be better) I strongly disagree with our IC here. If he is fakeclaiming and you are the JK counterclaim. One death mafioso is good. The JK is after that a weak cop and gets even stronger. Even if it kills the JK, losing our strongest Powerrole (perhaps the only one) vs losing a mafioso, worth it.
Since I don't believe there will be a counterclaim I look elsewere.
Oh yes and the strong work I had planed for today got chanceled, so I am free for about 11 hours.

[StefanB]

Hiplop we both replaced in Newbie 1115, Nexus was the mod. We didn't play that long together because I was nightkilled N1.
Can you please make clear what you don't understand?

The Johhogcase: Well, I didn't realise that LoM claimed, looks like most players don't realise that. Townie is something that can mean town (as VT and powerroles) or VT (not in rolepm they are clear), so it can be looked over.
Don't realise why it would be a good idea to lynch LoM that early. An early lynch is nearly ever a good idea on day one and we managed to get a lot of thinks done afterwards. Was it to early to get him on L-1 and ask for a claim, perhaps.
Well I for once was hopping for a replacement on LoM, truth be told. Someone playing like he is, can easily flake. So that was one of my reasons to not lynch the slot. The other was to get more of a feeling for the game.
And than arguing for his own mislynch. Never a good think as town. Lynching the only one who is confirmed town to you. Sorry wanting to be mislynched is for me near a selfhammer and that is arghhh!!
Why do you lie as town????? You know lynch all lyers.
The promise to lynch the guy who is attacking me looks bad. Really really bad. Sorry you never know if that is town or scum attacking somethink so bad like wanting to be mislynched.
If you are normally quite obvioustown, why don't you try to play normal in this game? If you are left allive you would be a great help if you try this. And after playing a few games. Noone manages to be always obviostown, you will have a few games off, where you just not that good.

Actually the whole think is so full of contridictions that's not funny:
First he wrote that he is a good policylynch.
Second after Demyx votes him, he is scum for voting him.
Third he claims that Whiskers and I will vote him to. How many scum are there in this game? (Well he is right about me)
So that was scummy as hell:

Vote: Johhog

[StefanB]

No good town wants to be lynched. That doesn't help town.
And you attacked Demyx for attacking you, with "only scum would do that!"
So you think he is scum for attacking you, but exspect Whiskers and me to vote you to. Thats more than 2 scum. So that is a contridiction.
If that wagon doesn't go of, I will hammer Whiskers at deadline. Still think he is more likly town, but I don't like him voting the claimed JK and I see where other players are comming from.

[StefanB]

Then any idea, how you can get into the game. Any idea how other players can help?

[StefanB]

Why do you need him to say it again that he claims to be a vanilla townie?
He has.
Just getting the feeling that Whiskers could after all be the better lynch.
And perhaps I will feel stupid but

Unvote

Vote: Whiskers

[StefanB]

Back? I have never voted you. It is a feeling, that I just trust.
And you wanted to lynch a claimed powerrole.
You asking about the VT was strange.
(A powerrole would already have said that he is a powerrole)

[StefanB]

Well first point of action should be from Android Dreams to tell us who he jailkeeped.
I think it's more likly that he jailkeeped the mafioso than a doctor we don't know we have stopped the kill. If you are a doctor don't claim. You have probably a confirmed town, this gets stronger the fürther the game goes.
So whoever was jailkeeped by Android is one strong suspect.

[StefanB]

Well it could also be, that the mafia tryed to kill Demyx and rolecoped you because they had some doubt. (Or left you alive because they thought Demyx was more dangerous) Will reread Demyx ISO.

[StefanB]

Sorry but it's not really 50/50. AD use the jailkeep as protect. Sometimes there are players who are very town, that alone is dangerous for the scum.
Anyone who didn't have a townread on Demyx before we got to night?
Okay, townreads can be wrong (just finished a game, where nearly every player thought the whole mafia was town), but don't believe it that time.
I think the scenary AD jailed scum Demyx who tryed to kill him is very unlikly. (What are the ods?)
One other reason for not killing AD could have been the fear of a doctor.
I see one reason for not killing AD. I would have thought he would jail Whiskers or me. (That's were he voiced the most suspicion)
If they thought that also, he wouldn't have been a problem today.
Either way, AD good JK.

[StefanB]

Whiskers: We don't need to kill AD because Player X can make the kill who is in no danger to be jailkeep, was the point.
My point was mostly scum doesn't always kill powerroles and I don't believe that the 50/50 chance that Demyx is scum is true, if you use more than simple math and use logic and fellings about the game.

[StefanB]

Whiskers:
Sorry for writing such rubish.
I was attacking Tajuns vote, VitaminR was attacking his FOS, that was somethink completly different. A FOS is suspicion on a player. Since my voteatack was the vote against AD, and the FOS about LoM, the 2 points had nothink to do with each other.

To make Tajun less norvous, Vi doesn't read every newbiegame (probably no newbiegame) and you can survive her anger.

Now in serious, Tajun why is Hiplop eliminated as suspect for you, from your post your suspicion of him goes from topsuspect to neutral. Neutral is normally still a suspect.

Demyx: Can you make the math that made you think it was a docsave more clearer?

Hiplop: Very interesting of the other stuff.

Demyx: That's a bit Wifom, but no mafia would not be afraid of your mislynch, if townplayers want it.
You are ignoring one think. For most players you are a big townread. AD was using his JK as protection. You were one of the top 2 candidates for the nightkill. And your reaction after that is also locking town. So yeah I am ignoring the posibility that my toptowread is scum because I think it to unlikly.

Whiskers again: Getting townreads is not scummy. You want to find scum, finding town is helpfull in this. (if you know that player a is town, you have less suspects) There are games, that were won by process of elimination. (Presuring the people not having townreads on) Mafia doesn't really nead townreads because they know who the town is, they need to now who they can get lynched and who they can't. I have seen some people question if you should post townreads, but I never heard that townreads are scummy. Who told you this?

[StefanB]

Gone trough Haoalas ISO:

To people strike me as posible candidates for scum.
Hiplop due to the not mentioning of him and VitaminR and the second case:
is Whiskers:
Sorry the whole conversation with Haoala looks very much like teaching their scumbuddy to play better. And that was a clasic vote town, FOS my scumbuddy. Another think is that there were 2 waggons, Haoala did vote Johhog and not Whiskers.

There is the old VC anylisis also. There were 4 players of the lynchwaggon (the dead towny, AD, me and Forehead) Scum is normaly not complete on a misslynch day 1.
This makes Forehead for me another suspect.

Pro Hiplop is that he was pretty anti Haoala, so that get's to mentioned.

So

Vote: Forehead

[StefanB]

And to AD: There is a different think you should think about.
You are now a weaker cop.
If you jk someone and there is a kill, we know that person is inocent. So you should think about telling us, who you jailkeep before it goes to night. That leaves us whit a confirmed inocent in the worst case scenario.
Of course it's up to you and please do never forget your jk.

[StefanB]

And the questions to me:
No I have never claimed, I had 3 votes on me (VitaminR, Tajun and AD), you do not claim until there is at last some danger to be hammered, everythink else is antitown.

Demyx: Well if a scumbuddy is hidden and unter the raddar you don't wan't that to chance. And my vote on Haoala was not RVS, were distancing is common. I have won a scumgame while playing this one, were my scumbuddys were townreads by nearly every player. The only time I came close to vote one of them was in lylo. I have voted my scumbuddy inother game ones, when I thought it was necesary to not give away that I was his partner. Set him to L-1.

So distancing like that is not really my cup of tea.

I didn't follow up to it, because I had not much on Haoalo, but it was good enough to pick it up again, or Demyx?

[StefanB]

Hiplop: What do you mean, that Haoalo did not mention your slot?
You did mention her and had her as one of your topscumcandidats.

Was that what you mean, or do you sea a contridiction, that I don't see elsewhere?

[StefanB]

2 suspects from the ISO of Haoalo, 1 suspect from the Votecount.
I unfortunatly thought about looking at the votecount, after I start to write the message.

Forehead: We four were on the Whiskerslynchwaggon at deadline.

Okay, didn't really think about the doc, the point about going public is the weaker cop.
Even if scums kills AD by telling us the target we know one person who isn't scum.
The tactic was only idea if you want to use your JK us a Roleblook/Cop, yes that scum knows who they can't kill, is the negative about it. But if you for example jail Whiskers there wasn't much chance of him beeing nightkilled anyway.

I am completly sure we have another powerrole.
If AD is wrong

and

it is a cop

and

he has a inocent on anyone not Android Dreams or Demyx he should claim. In this case it's a townwin.

[StefanB]

So first the defense.

Forehead wrote:

Yeah, but it's not really relevant until we know what Whiskers is. It's also irrelevant because Johhog(confirmed town), AD(pretty much town atm) and yourself(presumably claiming town) were all on it as well. 3 of four pretty much town(or 3 if you exchange me for you since I'm town as well) were on that lynch.

You even said that you thought Whiskers was dirty, and you obviously thought it if you voted for Whiskers as well so it isn't a lynchwagon, unless you're admitting that you voted for Whiskers for nothing-reasons.

You ignore my point was that scum is in my opinion not completly on one waggon on day 1 at deadline, if there are 2 towniewagons.
3 town and one unsure in a position were there should be one scum. Of course I am voting the unsure and bring some heat on that.
On ADcase more later.

[StefanB]

Okay the Androidcase: His quotes:

After I claimed, he called for a CC.

Yeah and I still think that was right. A mafioso gone is worth to loose a powerrole even a JK. That's just somethink I belive.

Then in day2 tells the doc not to claim.
Looks like this mafioso's learning...

Totally diferent situation. Tell me why a docclaim helps the town. Demyx is even if you didn't save him, pretty much obvioustown. The whole point is mute because the mafia does know the second powerrole probably anyway, the post that got the modkill. (It is not forbidden as far as I know to discuss who to rolecop in their quicktopic)

Android wrote:

Stefan wants the other PRs to claim
so that he can kill them!

Nope I want the cop who has an inocent on a not cleared player to claim (if he exists), that would leave us with 3 suspects. You jk one (anoiced would help, for the plan to help), the town lynches the second and the cop investigates the third. We have three lynches, tell me how town can lose that one.

The only asumption about the whole think is the 2 powerroles. It makes no sense for Haoala to do somethink so risky to just tell his partner that you are a jk (and a VT is definitive not worth it)
I didn't call for a jk to counterclaim today. I believe Android to be the jk. I believe Demyx to be town.
I think that Haoalas Iso and the last VC made Forehead or Whiskers scum more likly, so that's where I stand.

[StefanB]

Hiplop: You have stated some suspicion on Demyx more than once, including the 50 % stuff.
Now he is townread. Care to explain what chanced your mind and why you were so sure of Demyx beeing a good lynch in the beginning?

[StefanB]

EBWOF (means see it as an edit of my first post):
I meant why Hiplop was so sure that Demyx was a good lynch at the beginning of the day.
Hope that is clearer.

[StefanB]

Forehead that is not even remotly what happened. I just tryed to use somethink from an arsenal that many scumhunters used and it pointed in your direction.
Whiskers: Why does it scare you if people don't see you as bad player?????????
I would advise against jailing Demyx again, there is not much pointing at Demyxscum.
I would rather see AD jk someone that he is suspicios of or who he sees in the neutral catagory.
For now

Unvote:

How about a little test, at the moment my vote would go to Hiplop or Whiskers. Why shouldn't I vote you or why should I vote the other one?

[StefanB]

Whiskers: My copplan looked like this.
Cop claim inocent on x.
AD-Demyx-x pretty much cleared.
Cop halfcleared.
Lynch one of the 3 players remeaning.
Night.
JK player cleared if there is a kill.
Cop can clear another player.
If cop is killed 4 clear (2 dead) lynch the unclear.
If JK dies and cop has inocent lynch Demyx or cop, lynch the other the next day (if it doesn't work)
If Jk dies and cop has guilty, lynch guilty.
Lynch Cop if he lyed.
Tell me where the hole is?

Whiskers: There is somethink in Hiplop later where he put's Haoala as his second scumread.
And I don't believe that you try to argue with "scum was telling us the truth". Never trust scum. Okay it may be more likly that we have a doc, but there is no 100% argument. I don't know which one we have so I try to plan for every posibility
My last post was testing how you would both react. Was it a bit lazy yes.

The point about the random kills is nice, just forgets the modkill. The mafia probably knows who the second powerrole is.
And only scum would hate a townwinplan.
And what exactly is your plan Whiskers???????
Waiting on that plan before voting Whiskers.

[StefanB]

Okay, done thinking.
A massclaim is not very helpful, Whiskers, that was your great plan????

Vote: Whiskers

Why is Whiskers a suspect for me. Well he was since the end of day 1. I can well see a Haoala/Whiskersscumtem, exspecially since Haoalo stated some suspicion on Whiskers. but never voted. Giving advise etc...

My suspicion on Hiplop: First I was suspicious of VitaminR, never had much but suspicios, then the whole point that Haoala pretty much ignored the slot, then we have the strange posts about Demyx today, exspecially the promised but not delivered reason for the Demyxlynch at the start of the day. Feels fake somehow.

This are my suspicions.

[StefanB]

Demyx: So you point that out and ignore the rest of my posts where you can read my case on Whiskers, and the post before. I just wanted to know what his/her great superplan was. And I was disappointed. So derp.
Don't lynch before AD posts his plan for tonight. (You can make a plan now and chance it before we go into night)
A massclaim is imho only forcing the powerrole to claim. I don't like forcing people on our site.
I also take ofence that I haven't been trying this game. You can say I played like shit, etc, but not trying is a joke.
Since I am at L-1, you will learn that I am a normal VT.

[StefanB]

Demyx, you wrote:

Stefan, on the other hand, continues to flail and post things that make very little sense to me.

That means I am not giving enough in your opinion and don't make sense. And this is bugging me.

And if I played good or even decent, there wouldn't be a L-1 waggon on me, so I played like shit, fact.

I asked the cop to claim gave advice about what I thought would help the town. I didn't want to

force

a powerrole to claim. Sorry I just leave it to our side to make the decisions themselve not forcing them. (And a massclaim is just forcing our side), I don't see a pluss.
That I was for a copclaim in certain circustances, (NOTING THE BOLDED ANDS) doesn't mean I am pro-massclaim.

Yes and I am getting angry at Demyx for posting such thinks, Whiskers is a scumsuspect, you should be better.

[StefanB]

The closest I came to, was
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17289,
a game of shame. I have never been voted on, besides that and this game.

[StefanB]

and marathons were I really suck.

[StefanB]

Where is the

reasonable

docclaimplan, I was waiting on it, haven't seem it. The think I see that comes closest is 734, but here Whiskers comes to not claim is better. (And that was one found out now, the spoilers did hide it, quite well)
Sorry don't see a plan here, only comon sense.
Yes I call a

masclaim now

, forcing and would say that Whiskers is just making up a plan that isn't even there. Asking isn't massclaim.
Demyx if I would be mean I would call you not very intelligent now.
If you can't see the difference between Whiskers non existant plan (which I have searched for quite a bit) and my plan than you need to look again.

[StefanB]

Scum to Town:
Whiskers
Forehead
Hiplop
Tajun
Demyx
Android

I would like to see one of the top 2 jked.
If there is no nightkill, town can no lynch and Android jk the same player again. May not help much but you should know that you have the option.

[StefanB]

And AD please don't wait until twilight.
Twilight can be very short. (In my last game the one before gameend was very short, a few minutes and one post)
Don't risk it, make a decision and if you chance your mind and the thread is still open, post the chance.
Just be there for the town and use your nightaction.

[StefanB]

Android:
I have defended against 797, I have not really atacked Demyx except saying that I thought that was not the best vote.
And anger is one of my problems right.
Not keeping track on who is on the raddar? What does that even mean? I do keep track of the game more than Whiskers for example, who forgot who the claimed jk was.
And going for PR claims. I have asked for a claim twice. Once because I wanted a cc, if you were lying. (I stated why I think a counterclaim is correct townplay)
Second a copclaim unter certain circumstances.
I was against a docclaim and a massclaim.
Tajun next.

[StefanB]

Tajun:
I don't know if someone was planning to quickhammer me. I kind of hoped scum would do that. (So it would be lynched tomorrow)
If I would be doc, I wouldn't have hoped for a Copclaim.
But I am calmer now, I can't really find somethink to make my lynch go away, will try to make my position about Whiskers clearer, and wait for the lynch.

[StefanB]

Damyx: Your main points.
I jumped of, of Johhog, because I had the feeling he was town and by putting someone else at L-1, there was no danger of a myslich.
My gut was telling me Johhog was not scum.
I voted Whiskers for a lot of reason, vote him/her again if I could.
The "PLAN" was just the last straw. Reason mostly that I have never seen such a great plan, but just normal commonsense.
The demanding and forcing was about a massclaim wich I opposed, had not that much to do, wich the vote.
I still think my copplan was okay, if we had a cop.
My reactiontesting was a mistake as was not starting the day with voting Haoala, which I planned. 2 bigest mistakes that game.

[StefanB]

Whiskers:
Why do you make sound Johhogs read as so bad.
His third read was mafia (A more experienced player once told me, that should be exactly the spot you lynch)
and you currently try to lynch his second slot.
So apeart from you on 1, you should have called his reads good.
Olso it disturbs me, how much problems you have with remembering thinks currently.
First who is the jk, second that the scum was modkilled, not nightkilled. What the hell is going on?

[StefanB]

Whiskers:
You made it sound like you had a great plan. You don't have much. A should say good game with bluffing with nearly no cards. (Yes to lazy to get the actuall quote)
My mistake wasn't that the reactiontest didn't work, it gave me a very good scumread on you, my mistake was not thinking that it was risky and could destroy any chance of people not voting me.
So I was to careless as town, and took a to great risk that got me killed. Your celabrating and all like this. Don't chelabrate to early scum, I still think you can be lynched.
You posted that Haoalo was nightkilled, so that was wrong.

Why are we not lynching Forehead, because it seems that it is beetween you and me, and most players seem to think some of his posts look like town. Forehead isn't cleared or otherwise not in the lynchpot. For most people his lynch doesn't seem to be a priority.

[StefanB]

Demyx: I disagree that Forehead will be a lylo-Problem.
He may be not so active, but it needs more to be a problem for town in lylo.

The point of the plan was that Whiskers was
writing "I LIKE MY (SUPER) PLAN BETHER", my reaction was:

"WHAT PLAN???"

After reveal it was a mehreaction.

I am not confusing somethink. The plan was to let someone make a list and lynch the third scumiest person of the list, because most people don't get the top 2 right.
I will list everythink I have said about Whiskers in my next post. We will see, if I don't have a case.

[StefanB]

Post 648:

is Whiskers:
Sorry the whole conversation with Haoala looks very much like teaching their scumbuddy to play better. And that was a clasic vote town, FOS my scumbuddy. Another think is that there were 2 waggons, Haoala did vote Johhog and not Whiskers.

Why is Whiskers a suspect for me. Well he was since the end of day 1. I can well see a Haoala/Whiskersscumtem, exspecially since Haoalo stated some suspicion on Whiskers. but never voted. Giving advise etc...

Olso it disturbs me, how much problems you have with remembering thinks currently.
First who is the jk, second that the scum was modkilled, not nightkilled. What the hell is going on?

Whiskers:
You made it sound like you had a great plan. You don't have much. A should say good game with bluffing with nearly no cards. (Yes to lazy to get the actuall quote)
My mistake wasn't that the reactiontest didn't work, it gave me a very good scumread on you, my mistake was not thinking that it was risky and could destroy any chance of people not voting me.
So I was to careless as town, and took a to great risk that got me killed. Your celabrating and all like this. Don't chelabrate to early scum, I still think you can be lynched.

It was less than I thought. Mostly it is the interaction with Haoala and his reaction now. Okay was to little, new points in the next post.

[StefanB]

All Whiskers quotes:

EVerytime pomepony says "Whiskers is shaping up!" It scares the shit out of me because that's scum play, right there.

Demyx, it scares me to death.

You missed my point. I mean it scares my to death that I"m told I'm doing well. I don't take praise well, especially in Mafia, where it's usually indicative of me being scum. But we've discussed this.

Why this? It doesn't make sense es town. In a very roundabout way is scum. I have never seen people want to be called bad. Just thinks my scumdar.

hiplop and Demyx are both hopelessly intertwined and probably one of them is scum. hiplop touches on Haoala, reading him as scum, but never confronts him directly, as far as I can tell. Furthermore, Tajun needs to talk more since he COULD be scum, but he rides so low I miss him for the crowd.

A lot of fail. The interwiened of Hiplop and Demyx is one think I don't see. Never has explained that.

Also in 733 Whiskers states the case:
I am scum for not believing the scum that we have a doc, am I missing somethink?
I mist the townstrategy the first time right, but ot is new in 734?
Okay can give somethink for this, but Hiplop and me already asked Android to make his post public.
And the random towniekills are naive.

And then he forgets PLAYERS in the game and celabrates the misslynch.
That is my case. Of course if you ignore half of it, posted in the last post like Demyx then I don't have one.

So Demyx: That Haoala only fosed Whiskers, never voted him, despise calling him out a lot, was coaching him and didn't hammer him, is not an argument? SINCE WHEN???????

[StefanB]

Some extra answer:

StefanB, why were you under such heavy attacks at the beginning of the game?

Because I reacted to strong.

I am heaving a different question, what exactly is the case against me. It is mostly that some players don't like my votes and Demyx is ignoring half of the thinks I post, or is there somethink?

[StefanB]

Okay major points:

1.Whole interaction beetween Haoala and Whiskers. I summerized that a lot, only Demyx is ignoring this. It is the strongest argument.

2.The forgetting players is a sign of not searching for answers. Who don't need answers: scum. I have a hard time to see players forgetting some of their suspects as town.

3.His chelabraiting now. Nasty, for me a sign for scum.

4.Beiing afraid to play good, because that makes people think he/she is mafia.

5. The whole point about the intervienence of Hiplop and Demyx, that he makes. No sense at all.

6. His reasons for the vote are? Demyx reason for the vote where? Forehead beside OMGOS?

This is what I have mostly. Of course if you ignore everythink like Demyx it is nothing.

[StefanB]

The point was the HAOALA WAS COACHING Whiskers:
HAOALAS quote:

What strikes me as highly suspicious is the way whiskers votes and unvotes so quickly. He voted, unvoted, and then voted LOM again within 6 posts, excluding the last unvote. What do you think

He voiced suspicion against Whiskers the whole time, never voted. (No I can't quote a negative)
Fosing their buddy, voting town, classic scumplay.

The coacing is quite subtile, here are 2 examples:
Haoala

Also, Whiskers, how usual is "usually"? If you're the VI, so you claim, in every game, don't you think you should change your playstyle so that you can actually play mafia?!? (mafia as in the game we're playing, not the alignment)

more:
Haoala

I apologise if you feel like I've been targetting you thus far. That is not my intention. I'm just trying to help you play better. It's nothing personal, so don't worry about it.

Sorry but that is interesting. You may not share my opinion but that is more than nothink.

Demyx: Since you are tunneling now hard, what would my rage chance?
And please point out were I ignored anythink you posted, I will search your posts.

[StefanB]

Whiskers: He is voting already you are waiting for the Demyxhammer.

[StefanB]

Demyx: Your points in 861:

1. Sorry that you don't see it as such, I tried. Please reconsider after your hammer.
2. You forget players, roles, the keys to victory?? Sorry to big to forget. Somethink like that makes at last sense as a policityvote. Forgetting minor thinks okay, but not remembering players??
3. For me this quote from Whiskers is it:

Yes, I suppose that was a mistake. Live and learn? Or, you know, Die and Learn for next game?

4. Yes old point. But why is he afraid of it.

5. Okay for that quote I want to scream. I did give you my suspects a while back. I am the only one who did analyse Haoalas Iso completly. Your point is more that you don't like my reasoning.

6. What have I ignored?

Your case I thought I had responsed to that:
Following my gut on day 1, when I thought that our lynch was wrong.
You misinterpreting my Whiskersvote.
A gamble that god horible wrong.

Not got points to defend against. I am calling my Whiskerscase a lot superior to your case. You will probably hammer me, but I don't care. You never had a good case. Whiskers has no case. Forhead is mostly voting me, because I voted him.
So that leaves Android, whose vote I respect. I am sorry that I exspected Demyx if she attacks me, wich a better case.
I feel like a have defended myself as best as I could. I will still take the win, if we do (there is a good chance of it), even if I am sorry that I didn't play better.

[StefanB]

This quoting Demyx:

Voting Whiskers for discussing - not demanding! - a doc claim plan in a fairly reasonable way. Later when called out on this, he claims that he would never call for such a claim plan, even though earlier today he was saying this:

Is not even a little bit why I was voting Whiskers.
I was holding out of voting him because he told about his great plan.

I say it again, you have no case against me, Demyx.
Never had one.
You can ignore that again, and just say blablabla, as did last time.
Also this calling out, the rage. What I did in this game is mild. I think for me I have actually stayed calm.

Since I don't see any case I can't defend myself.Since I can't defend myself I am dead. I have pointed everythink out, that I wanted at the moment. And I have made town think I am scum. So not seeing an out at the moment. Good luck in the rest of the game.

And okay I may have overreacted a bit, but you poisting:
Demyx

That looked to me like someone trying to scumhunt and failing at making much sense. And if you want to criticize him for that, you should not live in a glass house as you throw stones.

Mad me react:
Me

I am the only one who did analyse Haoalas Iso completly.

Was to stron, but Demyx if you think I have not tryed this game, you are wrong.
If you think I am so bad, then killing me is not the worst case.

I am more angry about lynched the first time without anyone giving me a real reason.
And okay Demyx I will not refer to you not having a case, I will say you have not a single bit in your case that is posible to defend against further or not weak.

But to your last 2 posts Demyx lol.

[StefanB]

And Whiskers: I don't discuss with people I think Scum why I find them scum, I can't convince them.
Your other questions:
OMGOS stands for Oh My Good you suck. It is meaned voting for someone for the (sole) reason for that that person votes him.
It is not a scumtell, but not the best reason to vote someone (and not the easiest to defend against)

And I am curious, what will you learn from my townflip?

[StefanB]

I love how all this melodrama is coming after I explained very clearly that I'm not going to hammer you at the moment, and Hiplop is not going to hammer you either, so it's pretty ridiculous to act like you're already dead. But if you're going to wallow in melodrama and use it as an excuse not to contribute meaningfully I suppose I can't stop you.

I am not contributting meaningfully??????????
I have posted more than 15 times today, okay mostly defending myself. You have my reads, you have my thoughts etc.
Why I am focosing on you, frankly you are very likly town.
Whiskers and Forehead are my topsuspect. And there is Android who suspected me all game.
Even if your case is imho bad, defending against nocase with people who are mostly not there (Forehead and AD) is more difficult.
And Whiskers is scum. So I try to discuss with the one, I think I have a chance.

Your case is:
Demyx:

He jumped off the Johhog lynch onto Whiskers with very little reason. Scum trying to avoid being on a town lynch? It doesn't give me a good feeling.

1. You don't like that I did not stay on the Johhogwaggon but joined the Whiskerswagon at the end of day 1.

Can you explain, why that is a good idea for mafia at all? And well I was on the Whiskers wagon, at the end. It was an impulsive decision, I didn't think that Johhog was scum and thought a Whiskerslynch was better. Okay I kind of respect the point that it is a good place for scum to be of the waggon. I attacked Forehead earlyer for that. But joining impulsive just a few hours before deadline. And don't forget what if Whiskers would have been lynched instead?

Second point: You don't like me voting Whiskers. The reason you think is the reason, is clearly not the reason for the vote.
After new points, do you still think I don't have any reason for my Whiskersvote. I don't ask you if you share them, I ask you if you think I don't believe in them.

StefanB wrote:
How about a little test, at the moment my vote would go to Hiplop or Whiskers. Why shouldn't I vote you or why should I vote the other one?

Then there's this gem. I've already explained why I find this scummy and you quoted it so you likely remember. To recap, scum don't like to get their hands dirty in lynches and like to fish around for other people to write cases that they can then jump on.

And then there's the table flipping behavior, but that doesn't seem to be a scumtell for him, so I'm disregarding it at the moment.

This game is good, but I have problem getting my hands dirty? I am probably one of the biggest votehoppers in this game. I have tryed some thinks that failed, but I am risking thinks. Lazyness and reactiontesting were the reasons for it.
BTW how does 1 and 3 fit together?

Okay, perhabs you have a small case, but not a good one.
And I now will give up for today.

[StefanB]

Whiskers:

I read up to this point. WIll comment on the later posts later. So, from the top:
1. There wasn't that much. Yeah, we said some stuff. I didn't even really suspect him Day 1, but I did occasionally confuse him with Tajun. They both have similar posting styles -- not enough.
2 This is a sign ofnot searching for answere? How? Also, forehead7w asn't a suspect of mine, forsome reason I had him in my brain as confirmed Town. Since I couldn't remember why, and I forgot that AD was even playing (he hadn't posted for a while), I figured he must be the one who claimed JK.
3. Oh? I'd like a quote of me chelabraiting., because I missed that part.
4. No, mostly I'm afraid to hear that I'm playing good. On my native forum, we have, like, four-day long Days. My play is usually considered pretty bad, but when I'm scum, I play pretty good. But we've been over this, I think Demyx might kill me if I do it again.
5. I looked through some of the earlier game posts. Or something. I honestly don't remember. That was not quite kidding, but I only brought it up once and it was just a statement of my mild suspicions.
6. My reasons for your vote have a bit of uncertainty, as my case on you assumed a few things. If you flip town, I'll have to adjust (go the other way, and assume that a certain few of those are incorrect). Also, there's the whole thing (that Demyx quite liked) about your "reaction fishing," where you used hiplop and me to attack each other. I don't know why my reaction to it was scummy-- omgus?

1. is not about what you did, it is about what Haoala did. Makes perfect sense from a scum towards his buddy.
2. You treated Forehead as Suspect in post 724 for example. I know it is 3 days ago, but far from cleared.
3. Look at my last posts, I allready posted that.
4. So why are you afraid of beeing called not a bad player. It sounds like because then people could belive you are mafia in a very complicated way. So it could mean that you are mafia (ovrthinking probably)
5. Yeah and I don't see the conection. You are arguing for a conection with a player that is one of my strongest townreads, that just isn't there. In my opinion scum would love to kill someone who I think scum would love to kill for no reason. So yeah I am calling this one of the scumist points in the whole game.

Sorry more tomorrow, I am out of Mafia for today.

[StefanB]

Whiskers:
Hang on, your point is that I have ignored stuff, not reading close enough, so forgetting and not realising the importance of thinks.
You know classhouse and all, who forget who the JK was?
And is that the 2 post or is there more an 36 pages?
Your "Masterplan" was so damm hiden, that it looked like a very lengly discusion of the claimplan.
It was also hiden in a damm Spoilerbox. Normally spoilerbox mean, don't read if you get the main point.
I may not have perfect rememberence of all post, because sometimes there are many new pages at night, but I think I have in general a good gripp on what is going on.

Now Demyx acusion I brused them of originaly, and perhabs made them sound a more lightwise than they were.
But you want to build a case on scum is likly to ignore a case on them, be my guest.

Btw, how often have you ignored the question if you are male or female?

[StefanB]

Sorry for not making this clear enough Demyx.
If I would be scum would the switch to Whiskers really be safe on day 1?
Let's look at the concret scenary.
If I would be scum, Whiskers is town by process of elimination. (We only have 2 scum)
For Whiskers to be a safe waggon, I would have to know that Whiskers is not to be lynched.
My vote brought Whiskers to L-1 (I still know that, because I was concerned about a no-lynch day 1, which is worst for town) and left Johhong on L-2.
My vote could have easyly brought a Whiskerslynch day 1, so Demyx point:

Certainly. Scum are often nervous about being on a bandwagon that kills an innocent (often irrationally, since you rarely see one being lynched for it). Thus they will sometimes try to jump if they see the wagon heading that way

.

Can you tell me Demyx, why this rationale made sense when the Whiskerswagon could have easily head to a lynch as well?

Demyx:

Yes, you had been asking for other people to write up cases on people you think are scummy without writing one yourself. Hence, the post about how you want Whiskers and Hiplop to write up cases on each other.

Yes I have done this one seemed like a good idea that time, wasn't.

Demyx

Whatever happened to Hiplop being one of your top suspects, anyway?

My 3 suspects have been since 648: Whiskers, Forehead and Hiplop. They still are on 838, where I gave my reads. Order has chanced, but that's normal. So what happened? I got on a discusion with Whiskers. Like you I tunnel sometimes.

[StefanB]

The last time I played scum, I pretty much threw a fit because the players (whom I play with regularly, we all are familiar with each other) had gotten into the habit of "Lynch Whiskers Day 1."
Then again, I played to my Town meta (of being dumb & generally anti-town).

However, I did make the town basically repeat Day 1 again and left them with a bucket of wifom and confused reads.

As a Townie, I can calm myself down enough to not throw a fit and self-hammer. Throwing a fit is nearly always pro-scum, and anti-town.
Being defeated and accepting your lynch is something that can happen to townies. However, StefanB did it shortly after his tantrum. I'm not familiar with what you've got if a player does both. Scumrage + "Remorseful Townie" play?

Well that is for me a bit of to much Whiskersselmeta. I don't consider any player in this game dumb, I just see you as a suspect.
Have I made the town repeat day 1? No, definitly not.
Well losing temper is normally not the wisest move, but I am afraid I will be more calm (and more manipulative) as scum under pressure.
I can post the links to my scumgames if someone want to try to meta.
Accepting my lynch is mostly a time for me, followed by fighting it again. I was just tyred yesterday.
And Whiskers learn not everyone is Whiskers players play differently.

[StefanB]

Since Demyx asked: Forehead:
Has the last posts of all players still alive only 35. (Android with 40 should post a lot more)
Have seen scum post not a lot. Today there were only 11 posts.

Some thinks that I say one his Iso.

Pretty friendly term with Haoala (doesn't mean much not much questioning of Haoala)
The dirty question about the comunication of the mafia. Lead at last VitaminR to a cleared Forehead:

Forehead wrote:

I know it'll make me seem dirty, like I'm trying to deflect attention
as obviously the mafia would know but I was genuinely interested in
which way this board uses.

In his Iso 17 (240) he votes Whiskers
After that about LoM:

Forehead wrote

It's hardly a secret that I think LOM's dirty. Obviously, that hasn't
changed since he's still not posted anything useful, so yeah, I do
want him dead. That's not a major reveal, sorry

Has never voted him since.

His reads:

I still think Android and Whiskers are the two scum.
Demyx and Johhog's spat has put them in the "maybe" column. The bad
thing is, if one flips town then the other will probably die and
there's a decent chance they both could be town, even more so since I
don't really think much of their argument is as concrete as the ones
that have been presented on Android or Whiskers.
I'm not really getting anything on anyone else. Hiplop seems town to
me, the other three(Haoala, Tajun and StefanB) I can't read.

Well safe spot for the scum. Very strange reaction to the Demyx-Johhog fight. Reads like I think both could be town but let's call them dirty.

His reaction after the Johhogynch:

Uh oh, god he better flip scum or I'm dead.
Johhog is acting very much like he did in the game we played together,
he fought bitterly after deadline then as well.
Whiskers, I thought you were overly fighting to get rid of your
previous player's scumtell(Gingy was silent). The fact you wanted to
lynch Android Dreams after he claimed made me feel even more that way.

Strange for not beeing on the waggon since the beginning of the day. Seems more concerned about looking good, than anythink else. Made me also think that scum doesn't want the people lynched the call scum they want town to lynch the people they call town so they don't need new suspects. Would call this nervous about getting dirty by calling town scum.
Was btw called out by Whiskers and defends it in 557 as toungue in check.

I'm not surprised Johhog was town, but am surprised Legend of Mafia was, he is a bit of a buttmunch though.

Comes after the no-kill in the night. Still talking about the lynch, still trying to look clean.

Not that we want to win that way but Haoala's death is obviously good.

His reaction to the Modkill. Makes him seme like a good townie, but look artifical.

Tajun has called some of his mistakes towntells. He is perhabs better to list them.

Last argument, was with me the only one off the Johhongwaggon, who isn't pretty much cleared (AD), or death (Johhong)

Would vote him, if there wasn't Whiskers.

[StefanB]

Whiskers: The one he promised in 900, when he read the game?

[StefanB]

After sleeping about it.
Whiskers is hitting a lot of wrong bottons, but after going through Foreheads ISO I was very suprised of some posts. (Yeah there was more about then I exspected)
Exspecially his reaction to the lynch and the modkill, are for me enough, to:

Unvote

Vote: Forehead7

[StefanB]

Forehead should I wait whit the response after your exames?
I you are ready give me the okay. (If you are Mafia or not, reallife comes first)
Second a tipp for the future, you may want in cases where you are probably bussy post V/LAs when you aren't there.

[StefanB]

Since Demyx asked: Forehead:

In his Iso 17 (240) he votes Whiskers
After that about LoM:

Forehead wrote

It's hardly a secret that I think LOM's dirty. Obviously, that hasn't
changed since he's still not posted anything useful, so yeah, I do
want him dead. That's not a major reveal, sorry

Has never voted him since.

I was convinced LOM was mafia, but I also thought Whiskers was dirty. Since LOM wasn't posting, I thought I'd throw a vote onto Whiskers and see how she reacted, that's a fairly standard day 1 action. Probing about to see what moves.

Have no problem with the fact that you voted Whiskers, more like that you have never acted on your LOMsuspicion after that post again. This was more introduction.

His reads:

I still think Android and Whiskers are the two scum.
Demyx and Johhog's spat has put them in the "maybe" column. The bad
thing is, if one flips town then the other will probably die and
there's a decent chance they both could be town, even more so since I
don't really think much of their argument is as concrete as the ones
that have been presented on Android or Whiskers.
I'm not really getting anything on anyone else. Hiplop seems town to
me, the other three(Haoala, Tajun and StefanB) I can't read.

Well safe spot for the scum. Very strange reaction to the Demyx-Johhog fight. Reads like I think both could be town but let's call them dirty.

Yeah, because I couldn't read them. Ironically, it was because all three of you weren't posting. I couldn't get a firm grasp on you and thus weren't gonna put you in either of the other groups.

Having nullreads is okay. But here it's hm. I don't think I was that silent in the beginning, Tajun I think posted also enough content. So saying we weren't posting is not right.
Interesting what he doesn't comment on. His point about Demyx-Johong and the reading of Haoala, which were the points I was trying to make.
So he comes of witch a huh? argument and ignores the interesting points.

His reaction after the Johhogynch:

Uh oh, god he better flip scum or I'm dead.
Johhog is acting very much like he did in the game we played together,
he fought bitterly after deadline then as well.
Whiskers, I thought you were overly fighting to get rid of your
previous player's scumtell(Gingy was silent). The fact you wanted to
lynch Android Dreams after he claimed made me feel even more that way.

Strange for not beeing on the waggon since the beginning of the day. Seems more concerned about looking good, than anythink else. Made me also think that scum doesn't want the people lynched the call scum they want town to lynch the people they call town so they don't need new suspects. Would call this nervous about getting dirty by calling town scum.
Was btw called out by Whiskers and defends it in 557 as toungue in check.

Yeah, I was hoping Johhog flipped scum, as it would look better for me. It was more down to me tunnelling LOM though.

Well most people hope the lynched person flipps scum, because dead scum= good. Your point is more like defending (before the attack), don't want to look scummy, which is not exactly townmind, exspecially because you called LOM scummy long before Johhog replaced in, haven't attacked him since, weren't on the lynchwaggon.
It's ironical that I ask that: Why were you so damm nervous?

[

quote]

I'm not surprised Johhog was town, but am surprised Legend of Mafia was, he is a bit of a buttmunch though.

Comes after the no-kill in the night. Still talking about the lynch, still trying to look clean.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing, I mean, the results do help to try and scumhunt or look for cleared-ish townies.[/quote]

Well, analysing the lynch is of course not a bad think. But your action here is not exactly scumhunting, bad people would call it fluff. My point was that you did that to look more clean, not exactly helpfull or from a townmind necessary.

Not that we want to win that way but Haoala's death is obviously good.

His reaction to the Modkill. Makes him seme like a good townie, but look artifical.

Tajun has called some of his mistakes towntells. He is perhabs better to list them.

Last argument, was with me the only one off the Johhongwaggon, who isn't pretty much cleared (AD), or death (Johhong)

Would vote him, if there wasn't Whiskers.

How is it artificial?

The reaction doesn't feel genuine. It feels more like, you want to look good than helpful. It reads translated "I don't like it, but it's a good think because I am town." (I kind of ugh reaction) Look at the other reaction, they look more real.

You can't use the example of being on a bandwagon that you yourself were on as a reason for someone being dirty. If you were on it then you obviously felt that person was dirty, so me being on it says the same.

My catch up hasn't brought me too much, in terms of reads. But Whiskers is looking more town to me.

I'd go with Stefan is still the scum.
Tajun, Whiskers and Hiplop are neutral, leaning towards town.
Demyx is very town.
Android Dreams is pretty much confirmed as town.

As I said, I've got my last exam on Tuesday but I'll try and look in tomorrow sometime. And then I'll really be able to get back into it from Wednesday onwards.

Sorry the first part is fail. I never said that your suspicion of Whiskers was not good. The fact that the waggon on Whiskers didn't look bad is not a reason for there to be no scum on it. The fact that you are the only one on it, that I am unsure of, is sending alarming bells. But I will let that fall (Everone should now react now, HUH????) because you will see later.
Having only scumread can be a sign for very bad scum or for bad reads.

[StefanB]

Okay, points Waggonanylysis, first the facts, then the interpretation. I listed only L-1 waggons (okay one case is pretty vague), green means town (used for Johhog and Android), Blue (since I can't use red, confirmed scum):
By flaked players I give the name of the playerslot now.

Whiskers: StefanB, Forehead, Hiplop,

Johhog(?)

That was the one whit the unbolded vote.

Johog 1: Demyx, Tajun, Forehead, Whiskers (170)

AndroidDreams 1 - 4 (StefanB,

haoala

, Tajun, Demyx)

AndroidDreams 2: StefanB,

Haoala

, Tajun, Whiskers

Johhog 2: Hiplop, Demyx, StefanB, Tajun

Whiskers 3: Forehead7,

Johhog, AndroidDreams

, StefanB

Johhog 3: Hiplop, Demyx, Tajun, Whiskers,

Haoala

Today:

StefanB: Forehead, Whiskers, Demyx(

AndroidDreams

)
That are tecnically by me definition used above 2 times L-1, would mean 2 waggons, but since only Demyx left and Android joins, and frankly AD is town, the second one is not really important.


Other facts: Forehead and Haoala have never voted for the same person.
The only L-1 waggon Whiskers wasn't a part of was his own.

My conclusion:
Normally scum is on such big waggons. The don't like to vote both the same person.
Also scum does normally not care who is lynched, as long as it is not them.
So:
Theory 1: Scumpair Haoala/Forehead would have hit every waggon, except one of Joggon, which build when Haoala was tiered and Forehead was bussy pushing the Whiskerswaggon. Very high posibility of scumpair found.
Okay you all may find my first point of the Whiskerswaggon with 3 (for me) confirmed town and 1 unknown, not so strong, but this is more.

Theory 2: Whiskers is scum, because of hitting every L-1 bandwaggon, even the once he first missed he joined after someone unvoted. The normal strategy of one on the waggon, one of doesn't work with him.

I more believe theory 1.

[StefanB]

Edit: I tryed green but hit an ugly yellow instead, sorry.

[StefanB]

They don't know each other perhaps personaly but knowing that X is a scumbuddy has a tool on the game.
Mostly scum doesn't start with great stratagys in day 1, but sometimes have a feel for their fellow mafioso.

[StefanB]

The most important thinks first:
Scum can allways take pregame in newbies.
Forehead and Haoala have never voted the same person at the same time in the whole game period. Not only on L-1 waggons. Not in one post in the whole game. (Not counting voting no one)

[StefanB]

Forehead wrote:

Because I thought he'd get modkilled, felt there was no need to waste my energy on him anymore, I'd made my case. People were telling me to stop focusing just on him and I think it was Demyx who suggested I should look at others, so I did.

Why did you think LoM was getting modkilled???? There was no point where he was in danger of that. Ignoring LoM for the rest of his play okay, but when Johhog replaced in, that would have been a place to be suspicios, not treading it, as 2 different slots. But okay, that is the introduction, not the meat of the case.

Forehead wrote:

Difficult to read posts though, you can post a lot without giving info and I suspect that it'd be that.

Haoala's read is pretty simple, he posted enough but didn't really stand out as either, certainly not the most town or most scum. I'd be surprised if anyone seriously tried to claim they had him pegged as the scum.

does not synch with:

Yeah, because I couldn't read them. Ironically, it was because all three of you weren't posting. I couldn't get a firm grasp on you and thus weren't gonna put you in either of the other groups.

I tread your Haoala=null as a point against you. Pegged as scum perhabs no, voiced suspicion yes: Demyx and me voted him, and Hiplop had some suspicion about him.
And now we have that. What version is true: That Tajun and me weren't posting or that you couldn't get a read of them. Just that you posted 2 version (the truth has only one) makes you more suspicious. It's not uncommon to not be sure if a certain (even very active) poster is town or scum. But storys that don't match are scummy.

I'm not sure what was wrong with my read on the Demyx and Johhog fight, I don't think there was much to it(in terms of substance or reasons), certainly I didn't believe so and as such, I thought that one could be scum since obviously scum tend to make up or make the most out of small things to argue with townies about. I wasn't going to call them both scum as it didn't feel staged but I wasn't sure of the reasons so either could have been scum. Although LOM felt mafia-y, Johhog didn't but I wasn't convinced during this argument.

So why was it such a big point. It's a small think in your opinion. Somethink that you weren' sure played a big role. Everyone can be scum, why was it so important for you?

Forehead about his "I hope he is scum."

As I said, it was a tongue and cheek comment, not meant to be taken fully serious. Pretty stupid of me, if I was scum, to come and say something like that, no? LOM's lack of helpful posts but him being active wasn't helpful, I thought that getting rid of him early would allow us to move on. I mean, we ended up lynching him(effectively) anyway. Johhog felt very town to me, didn't post anything that stood out scummy and was very active. I felt that Whiskers was the correct choice for the lynch, so that's where my vote was.

I was "nervous" because I really went after LOM. If he(well Johhog) had flipped town then I would've felt like I hadn't wasted most of Day 1 going after him, and yeah, it would've given me some town-points.

The first part is WIFOM. If you are scum you were trying to clear yourself from the myslynch. Mostly you seem to be here very concerned about your selfimage, not about who is scum.
That's efectly my concern about your post after the no-kill also. My point that it was fluff, comes after your defend of the post with:

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing, I mean, the results do help to try and scumhunt or look for cleared-ish townies.

Which is a good theory, but you never did that.

So you're saying that there has to be a scum on every bandwagon? Could easily be that the remaining scum doesn't want to be associated with any potential lynchwagons.

My theory is that scum tryes to blend in, they try to get townies lynched, so no they don't have to be on every bandwaggon, but they will be on them.

Forehead:

For example, Haoala and Johhog were never on the same wagon. Obviously we know their allegiances, but it's interesting and it means that a townie could never have voted "with" Haoala. I'm not using this as a defense, it's more just something to think about.

Also, you saying that I might be scum because me, you(Stefan), Johhog and AD were on the same wagon and you believe there's a scum on every wagon. By that token, one of Hiplop, Demyx, yourself(Stefan) and Tajun are probably scum as you were all on "Johhog 2".

On the note about Whiskers being on all of them, Stefan you were only not on the first and final Johhog wagons. Haoala being on the final one might suggest that the other mafia member would stay off it as we'd find out that we lynched an innocent, by your logic on the Whisker's wagon then you must be mafia because of that.

Okay, the waggonanalysis is a tool, but you are not trying to be helpful here as town. I don't know if Haoala and Johhog/LoM were conected. I didn't analise Johhog very much, he wasn't of a concern of me.
My point about Johhog 2 was that it build very fast and Haoala was in catching up status during it, you were bussy on your waggon. So it is the most logic of mafia beeing away from it. So nice try but explained for me.
Okay my status: I was on four waggons: Whiskers(then Gingy), Android, Johhog and Whiskers. 2 of them were late at the day, in the others I was the waggonstarter. So your point?

[StefanB]

Well, on that point we certainly agree. At the very least they are open to interpretation.

(Just took Tajuns quote, because it is a nice starting point to make this statement)
They are open to interpratation, if someone finds somethink else in there be my guest. If someone seens aditional info on it, cool. But Forehead seems more, how can I redicul it, than can I use that to find scum, which should ring allarming bells.

[StefanB]

And okay I have to give you this:
LoM/Johhog and Haoala never voted together, because the LoMslot voted for nearly all the game VitaminR (whom Haoala left alone all game) and in the end Whiskers.
But 2 votes are not the same as Foreheads play, who was a lot more active voter.

Okay I am no longer suspecting Hiplop that much in this game. My points were mostly, that Haoala kind of ignored the slot (can be explained that the IC can be someone to leave alone for the scum) and old suspicion of VitaminR.

[StefanB]

Forehead wrote:

What? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but that sentence seems pretty contradictory, you say it's a big point then it's a small thing and doesn't play a big role then you claim it's important, all to me or in my opinion. Can you clarify here please?

Okay I will tell you what was on my mind:
Here you don't sound like the Johhog-Demyxfight wasn't all that important. Why did it play such a big part in your argumentation then. That was the point.
Sorry was a bit bussy with other thinks today, more tomorrow.

[StefanB]

Okay, Forehead first important point first.
You never no-lynch as town on day 1. We don't have the data for the new setup yet, but a nolynch day 1 is normally win for scum. (Very good to see in a lot of discusion in the mafiaforrum, if need I will copy quotes from another newbiegame finished here)
Shortly before deadline, you have to think what is best/worst for town.
Sticking on your suspect is fine, voting him until deadline and nolynch is not.
At this point the alternatives were AD and Whiskers if I remember correctly. And the townread of Whiskers was growing weaker.

It is standard practise to roleclaim, but Johhog had allready claim the Slot was VT.

If we don't screw up, and mafia doesn't we have 3 lynches and 2 nights left.

Android: Please ask Vel, if you can submit your nightaction before your VLA.
If he says yes, I don't like it, but it is okay.

[StefanB]

Quicklynching is an option, to avoid the VLA deadlineproblem. Not one I like.
OF course I prefer Forehead or Whiskers as lynch.
A temporary replacment would be a good option.
Johhog if he has no insideinformation, would be okay.

[StefanB]

Okay, Whiskers stopp the questioning regearding the doc. What protownmotive do you have for them?

Sorry for forgetting the L-1 on you Forehead on my list. The first one to unvote you was actually Demyx, then Whiskers tryed to do it and failed.
The maindifference between Forehead and Johhog not voting for the same player is, that LoM/Johhog voted 2 times, on waggons were Haoala staying of is understandable and Forehead voted 5 times. Not the same.

If you think someone is scum and someone else is town, lynch the scum. Les headage, you don't try to confirm by killing him, if you think he is town. Start the lynch with the player you think is scum. (Not necesary true in lyo)

Okay the bluffing part of AD is very low. Well look at mafiaperspective if AD would be mafia. A nokill is definitly bad for mafia, somethink they don't want. An acidential nokill is not very likly. (They had time for the code, so they were active) And if AD would be Mafia he knew that town had one or 2 of this: Jk (screewed), Doc (Best case but could still make thinks complicated and screw the plan), Cop(not good, exspecially since Ad could very well be invastigated)
So doesn't really make sense for the scum. AD is imho town. Killing him because he couldn't stopp the NK doesn't make sense, exspecially that he can only do it, of Tajun is scum, not very likly.

Whiskers don't loose the goal out of your site. We wan't scum dead, not confirmation. Confirmation is only a tool to our goal.

Whiskers: Can you make any point, were the townflip of any one of us would make usfull information?

One point about Haoala and the Suspects: From Haoalas ISO I found the reaction to Whiskers and Hiplop suspicious (Hiplop own ISO was an argument against that pair), then I thought I look at the VC (a tool that a lot of experienced scumhunters used) and found out, that that spoke imho against Forehead. Unfortunatly I wrote the beggining of the post before thinking about the VC.
Forehead expects me to vote for either Whiskers or Hiplop at this point, so I hope that clears that up. That isn't a misquote from Forehead.

Oh I miss it, but Whiskers not reading your rolePM is not really a good idea and not really somethink that you can avoid. Will get you hated, blacklisted etc, besides most mods have plans against this. Really not recomended, if you don't want to get very hated.

Whiskers asking are you town is actually lol. Everyone would answer yes, point?

[StefanB]

Tajun: Do I think Forehead is the second scum yes.
But going sillent in the night is somethink that is just bad play, so I will fight against my own lynch because I think that is the normal play.
I hope nights give us some interesting information too.

[StefanB]

Forehead: I have never seen the mod shorten the nightdeadline in newbiegames. Could be a gamebreaker, so no. The night will not be shorten even if all nightactions are in.

[StefanB]

So what do we know:
Tajun is town.
Since we probably have no doctor, Demyx was either the nightkilltarget (the more likly posibility) or is our last scum.


Hiplop: You thought about telling us somethink yesterday, is perhaps now the time? (Post 1006)
Forehead still my mainsuspect.
So

Vote: Forehead

[StefanB]

Demyx: On the foreheadcase you forget his vottingpatterns on day one, which at last I feel is a part of the case.
I didn't decied not to lynch Forehead yesterday, but I will repost, what I see as case, tomorrow, if that's okay for everyone.

Mod: I will be VLA for the 12 perhaps 13. of September my time. (A bit complicated reason, but it could be that I don't have internet on those days)

[StefanB]

Tajun: Right now, without any more info, Hiplop. Demyxscum is just somethink I can't really belive in.
But like Hiplop said, Lyo is not the time for quick decision.
Also promasclaim, popcornstyle, okay? (We all tell who we want to start it, this guy or girl, tells us who is next)
If everyone is okay with the popcornstyle I would like Forehead to start.
Also be careful of nightkillspeculation, that is dangerous and often wrong. (Don't know if Hiplop would have killed Android or Demyx at night 1, I am shure most scumplayers would have killed one of them or the IC)

[StefanB]

The one that none was one. (not counting the Foreheadwaggon day 2), was the first Johhog L-1 (Haoala joint the wagon only at the hammertime)
At this time Forehead was on the Whiskerswagon and Haoala bussy catching up, so understandable.
This does only count for L-1 waggons. What is true for every waggon (counting a waggon as 2 votes+) is that Haoala and Forehead have never voted for the same person in the game (with Forehead beeing quite active on day 1), the same is true for Haoala and Johhog/LoM, but the Johhog/Lom slot voted only 2 times in the whole game, LoM for the IC and Johhog for Whiskers.

[StefanB]

Forehead: Who should claim next? Normally the one who has claimed, chose the next one.

[StefanB]

Hiplop: There is one reason for this massclaim, it looks people in claims. So no new claim in lylo.
I am still a VT, so Demyx is the last one, everyone else has claimed.
Tajun it was obvious that you weren't a powerrole. (you wouldn't have believed that I am the doc, if you were our second powerrole) So if there would have been one it was between Forehead, Hiplop and Demyx.

[StefanB]

I hate that situation, but at the moment I don't really have internet. I can post from a hotspot, but probably not daily (weekend no problem) (Getting new internet is not my decision alone)
Don't know how long I will have this problem, I will try to post but it's the mods decision.
Tajun: Why do I feel right as scum? Just a gutfeeling or more?

[StefanB]

Okay back.
Your last post made me, hm, somethink feels a bit strange about it.

Since town has misslynched 2 times (and no lynch was terrible) there will be townies on myslynches. Feels more strange that I have been on no lynch this game (unormal for me)

[StefanB]

The case on Forehead as I see it, with points made by Forehead, then counters by me (some of the counters are new)

1. Forehead and Haoala have never voted for the same person.

Counter Forehead: Johhog and Haoala have also never voted for the same person.

My Counter to that: Well, Johhog/LoM voted twice. Once for the IC (a waggon some scumplayers wan't join) and on Whiskers when Haoala decieded to lynch Johhog.
Forehead voted on day 1 4 times, not the same. Also Haoala could have voted for LoM or Gingy easyly but didn't. So it's not the same think and at last notworthy.

2. On every wagon that got to L-1 or lynch on day 1, there was exactly on of Forehead and Haoala. Never zero never 2 (with on execption but we will take about it later)

Counter Forehead: There was a wagon on Johhog that has no scum on it, your theory is wrong.

My counter: It's debatable if that was the case. The waggon hat no scum on it, if my theory is correct, when it first reached L-1, but it was still the same waggon when it was a hammer, and there was scum (Haoala) on it. My unvote and the vote from Whiskers and Haoala didn't destroy that waggon.
And it bulded, while Forehead was pushing the Whiskerswagon and Haoala was busy catching up, so understandable if scum missed it.
Also Haoala was playing for a sanctioned hammer and so beeing of the waggon was a good place at this time.

3. He is lurkish has the last post of all players. (Difficult to read is a goal of scum)
Counter from Tajun: But he was there in the important times.
Counter me: Could be smart scumplay.

4. His reaction to the Demyx-Johhogfight. He build a case on it, that they could be scum because of it. Later he says it is much substance in it. If there wasn't much substance in it, why did his whole reads build on it?

5. He couldn't read Tajun, me or Haoala on day 1. Having a nullread on Haoala is of course not bad for scum, but his reason for having nullreads on Tajun or me are contridictions. Was it

because we two weren't posting

or were the post difficult to read. Truth does only have one, a lye can be multible.

6. Him trying to clear himself after Johhogs death, while he wasn't on the waggon for half of the day. Trying to be clear and not accused speaks more of mafia then town.

7. His reaction to Haoalas modkill still looks strange to me. I think that's how a scumpartner would react to it.

That is the case shortly, the meat of it. (Left out one or 2 points, that weren't that strong). Sorry my internet problem on Mo-Fr should get nonexistend soon and my aunt was visiting us, so this weekend was not good for playing mafia.

[StefanB]

Forehead I analyse 2 sources in the moment of Haoalas death, the ISO of Haoala and the final votecount. My question was why did Haoala hammer Johhog and not Whiskers?
From the ISO I got a mild suspicion on Hiplop, a stronger one of Whiskers and from the Votecount I got you.
Weakest was Hiplop.
Then there were you and Whiskers. Your play at the beginning of day 2 looked more scummy to me. So vote the more scummy player if you use all evidence as equal.
Btw, you mix up a lot of thinks, points coming later.

[StefanB]

Foreheads points about me:
1. The wanting to lynch LoM
Not true, I wanted not to lynch him at the moment of your post.
My stance on LoM has been since post 40:

1. He improved his game.
2. He replaced out.
3. He still is a headace, who is a problem for us all.

If it is 3 we will have to look in the situation further. Please LoM make it 1.

I tryed to get LoM in discusion, I failed, yes.

My stand on a policitylynch on LoM was clear in post 110:

Not policitylynching early on day 1 doesn't mean that I want LoM at endgame. If he stays and doesn't improve a lot it could become necessary, if there isn't someone very scummy. But that's a question that we should start to ask ourselves about the 1. of August not before, imho.

I didn't like his playstile. But I never voted him, before Johhog replace him, did try to stop a policitylynch to early, so how can you say I wanted to lynch him? I wanted him to improve or replace out, but I never voted to lynch him.

VOTING FOR A NO LYNCH?
NEVER savest way to loose the game.

VOTING FOR A SCUMSUSPECT: Well my point was that I would vote for LoM IF I HAVE NO SCUMSUSPECT!!!!!!

So this is either a nice missinterpretation, or very strange mudslinging.

2:
The hammering Whiskers on day 1:
Well that was near deadline, and the alternative was voting Johhog (which I was doing) and voting a claimed JK (NO!!!!). My townread on Whiskers was getting smaler at the moment. Nice ignoring that I was saying that

If the waggon doesn't go of.

, means that the waggon was going nowhere (not enough votes). Sometimes you have to compromise to not have a nolynch at deadline.

3. Voting Whiskers:
I already wrote that I can't see why scum would have done that. Draws attention, and it doesn't make beeing on a misslynch less likly. In my opinion Johhog had allready make it clear the his claim was VT, so that came of as very strange. I also got the feeling at that time, that Johhog was town, and to not get a nolynch, it's common practise to make sure that town can lynch, which means voting Whiskers, whose townread did get weaker.

4. My vote on Forehead was weak:
Nope wasn't. (sorry but that is interpretation)

The Demyxcase brought back by Tajun.
Unvoting Johhog and voting Whiskers at the end of day 1 was scummy, why exactly? How would I have avoided beeing on a townlynch?

I agree that the point of trying to get Whiskers and Hiplop to post about each other was lazy and stupid.

Whiskers docplan:
The point about votting for Whiskers for his docplain is not true. Him having a plan was a reason for a not vote, that's right. And realising what the plan was and beeing not to impressed made me vote, but only because the reason for the not vote was away.

So hope to have internet tomorrow, have fun.

[StefanB]

Proddoge. Sorry.
Just to make it clear, I didn't vote LoM as long as he was LoM. Sorry have exactly 2 minutes internet, so not enough time to respond to Demyx.

[StefanB]

There now, will post later just have to ready the net now.

[StefanB]

Since posting from a slow internet, I will not quote that much, to keep the time in tipping this short.

Okay points to point out: I was fine with lyncing LoM in the folowing scenerio:
1. He was still playing so that I have no read on him.
2. I have no scumread.
3. It's deadline, so I have to made a decision. One of my motives for stating this, was Demyx constantly asking about the PL and me wanting to go to other discusions (read context or Iso to get that)

Demyx: Re vottingpatterns: Have you found another patern? My theory was a distancing/sharing work case. At the moment this goes into looks to much like scum to be scum theretory.

Demyx: Why do you exspect IC to lead that much. I have seen townIC not lead much (Haylen my first IC for example), and at the moment we have one person who would be a logical leader, because of inocence (Tajun) and one player who is pretty much a townleader (take 3 guises who)

My point 4 corrected:

4. His reaction to the Demyx-Johhogfight. He build a case on it, that they could be scum because of it. Later he says it is

not

much substance in it. If there wasn't much substance in it, why did his whole reads build on it?

Yes the not was missing, sorry.

Demyx wrote about my Foreheadvote:

If you thought he was more scummy, you might've posted it then? Seems like you're justifying this after the fact.

Sorry but if a player names 3 players in a post as suspisios and votes one of them, it's almost obvious that the one he votes is the one he suspects most. He may have another reason (if you believe him, is another question) but that is kind of obvious implied.

Demyx wrote:

man freak out why doncha

But really I think the problem was that you were voting for LoM even though you had scum suspects (people you said looked scummy to you), as I recall

Actually I tryed to Use the big words to highlight them, sorry should have bolted.
Okay I allready stated, that there was not a point, when LoM played that I voted him. The person I was voting the moment when I made the post was Haoala. I was never part of the LoMwagon (later of the Johhogwagon yes)

Being on the Johhogwagon: For a push on weak votes, I wouldn't have to be of the waggon, just look halfway resonable on it. Doing it halfway, start beeing on it and unvote would be much more risky for scum than beeing of the waggon.

Demyx I am ready to defend myself anytime, not caring how small an attack seems (or you can get acused of making thinks up that much. I had also games where I wasn't that much acused and finished with zero votes.

So this about Demyx.

[StefanB]

Hiplop wrote:

The random addition of Haoala to StefanB's not lynching pool DEFINITELY has some merit. Also, a game of stefanB's just ended, and I had him pinned as town (he didnt flip town) so I don't know how well I can read him :\

You did read me as town? You were the first voicing suspicion of me. Btw I was a serialkiller that game tryed to stay under the radar day 1 (which worked so good that scum tryed to nightkill me and I was a lynchingwaggon day 2). From this on my plan was to catch the mafia and stay alive. Didn't work that good.
That geme proved that I can't read Hiplop very good, because I thought he was scum there.

[StefanB]

Mostly for me the Forehead regarding LoM was this:

Uh oh, god he better flip scum or I'm dead.

and later:

No I said I hope he flips scum, as it would lay more credence to my "tunneling" of LOM. If Johhog flips town then I was going after a town which doesn't look good.

I did say it in a tongue and cheek sense though, nice of you to try and twist it though.

And remember that Forehead last beeing on LoM was (okay that is from rememberence) about half the game ago. Also keep in mind that Forehead wasn't exactly pushing a policitylynch. He was pushing a "I know this guy he is playing completly different than he played before" lynch (not quote but that is how I remembered it)

Sorry should perhaps look more after Hiplop. (If Forehead is not scum he becomes the most logical choice) I just can't get the modkill out of my head. It was so stupid and I don't think that he would be part of it. (Sorry I will ask the partner in aftergame what went trough his mind, I just can't get it in my head) The info was pretty obvious and Haoala was not in that much danger, when he posted it.

[StefanB]

Well very difficult to say much now, except good luck for the rest of the game. Hell, if Forehead isn't scum the whole think becomes very strange.
If it is Hiplop well third game I play with him and the first one I think he is town, so hm. (I was a lot more unsure of him in other games, in one I was part of his mislynch)
I am more in controll as scum as I am as town, as town I somtimes just post. (Funny think is I played 2 other games, while I played this game one I was mafia and the other one I was a serialkiller, I survived both to endgame)
Well good news for me is that I wasn't looking forward to that endgame if Forehead would have flipped town (I still don't believe it), on the other hand would have been great from my point of view to have 2 chances to get it right, not only one. (Well the ones of you who are town, think probably the same) Was a cool game, while it lasted, very interesting players. (Just one warning, I am not the most hotheaded player on this site, perhaps not even in the top 10)

The point about the modkill, sorry. I didn't want to even imply that I think that anyone here is stupid. Sorry exspecially to Forehead, who I see as scumsuspect.

Well there are 2 good points about my lynch, even for me. You still have one chance, don't screw it up and at last one of me or Forehead had to dye to get everyone to the end with an open mind. Just when Forehead is scum and wins exspect rage. (Not really but a told you so)

[StefanB]

Nope, good luck tomorrow.

[StefanB]

Take the time tomorrow, think everythink trew, perhaps reread, sorry for not beeing better (exspecially this gameday)

[StefanB]

Oh balls. I'm not convinced there's enough of a case of Demyx or Hiplop to sway either's opinion. Thorough re-reads will have to take place next week.

Interesting post. You should be interested who is scum, not who you can get lynched as town. Tomorrow is the last day.

Demyx: I am really not scum. I have no motivation to lie now. In my last three games that was the one where I was town. (I played the other ones while playing this one)

[StefanB]

Congratulation Hiplop, that was the first game I thought you were town, where I was with you. And you were scum!!!
I wouldn't say that Forehead was most at fault for the loss, that honor goes to Hiplops play. And I am much to blaim, I tunnel way to much on Forehead, and I don't know if I would have managed to make a convincing case on him, at the last day. And sorry for the less contrubation on day 3, I was really without internet this time.
Demyx waiting that long was mean. Gut is to be said, to be very helpful in lylo. (Sorry was never in lylo as town)
Thanks all for a good game.
Previewedit: Yeah to Whiskers, if you stop believing (and saying) your lynch is a good one, you probably will be lynched less. Try to have your own opinion more often (You were on every L-1 wagon)
Demyx: You frustrated me in the end, when does that game end... That was so long!! Exspecially knowing that Hiplop was scum.
(And there were some little thinks that should have made us all go huh??? How strong was for example for townread on me day 3 Hiplop it was very flexible)

[StefanB]

Well I was in one game that moved pretty fast, that was Farsides Mafia Dating Game Show 2 (I think it began at night 1 or day 2, and ended shortly after my internettroubles started.
But for short games in Mafiascum you have to search, they are not that common.
Warning Themed can be pretty complex.
That was very long, I think exspecially lyo is normally over very much sooner.