Newbie 1123 - Game over!

[homeless]

Woot, been waiting for my first game here to start! Looks like it's already underway... understandable since I live in Japan at the moment which is a good 13 or more hours ahead of the States.

Cobblerfone: I've played a couple games on the forum of a website centered on an old SNES game (Earthbound), and have glanced over a couple games on this site before joining. Also, one of my training class supervisors at my former job had everyone play Werewolf in a closed room together on two occasions, which was freaking awesome considering it was a new experience doing it in real life and the fact that I got paid for it lol. Nobody had a clue how to play though so it was pretty chaotic.
In short, I know the basics but still have not developed a real "feel" for the game yet.

Amrun: Thanks for the really helpful posts already! I'll try not to reserve suspicion of you, though. :p

[homeless]

Oh yeah,

/confirm

[homeless]

I like the fool because it takes skill to lead the town to lynching yourself. Obvious self lynches aren't enough. Looking scummy isn't enough either; many can spot a fool from a mile away, so to speak. You also have to be wary of the mafia, trying to eliminate people as quick as possible.

Not to be suspicious of you as far as this game goes, but just asking a question to try to understand Mafia gameplay... How can it possibly be obvious to anyone who is the fool? As far as I can tell, townspeople do best to lynch the person whose play is (1) most suspicious, or (2) the worst. The fool will certainly fall into one of these categories, because he WANTS to, so I just can't see how anybody could know what to think of him. But anyway.

I thought Cobbler was a bit suspicious from what I read, but from what we have at the moment it's a little hard to find much to go on besides the whole "IF I WERE SCUM" thing. At any rate, casting a vote for him now would mean a lynch, which I think is too early at this point.
On the other hand, PiggyGal15 is using only her second post in the game to jump on a bandwagon coming dangerously close to an early lynch, with little to go on. It's

not

the "safe side", as you put it. Mind to explain the "reasons" you found that Cobbler is not mafia, and enlighten the rest of us?

VOTE: PiggyGal15

[homeless]

And I also voted for Cobbler because I don't really like making new accusations on the first round, I usually just shrug and agree with whatever anyone else says.

This sounds like really terrible play. Maybe if it's a real life game and you are shy, then I can understand. (I'm shy in real life, myself) But come on, this is a forum, for Pete's sake!
At least Cobblerfone is contributing to the thread. You want to make contribution sound unimportant and inconsequential. (at least, for the "first round", as you put it) If that's the case, then

you're

the one we don't need,

you're

the one who is "safe" to lynch.

Plus, I would've contributed to this conversation more if I hadn't been away all day, and only been able to come on now.

Fantastic, now is your time to contribute. Instead of just carelessly jumping on a lynch wagon.

[homeless]

Also, would like to hear more from chickadee.

[homeless]

Arthur Dent, too. -_-

[homeless]

After reading the guide on claiming I take my vote back UNVOTE: Cobbler

What does the guide to claiming have to do with your vote on Cobbler? When you originally voted for him, you said absolutely nothing about getting him to role-claim.

I agree that what Piggy did was a bit scummy/newbish, but I would like to inform the town that we have a ML, and if we intend to use it, Piggy doesn't nook like a bad choice.

This sounds amazingly similar to Piggy's logic about not caring who we lynch first.

From reading Piggy and Masterp's little back & forth about mislynching, honestly they seemed a lot like a pair of scum trying to "accuse" each other, but as Cobbler pointed out it looks like just a lapse in communication. (Masterp's fault)
Piggy does seem awfully confused in general, but somewhere there IS a line to draw as far as how much you can rely on the "I'm new" argument. Please don't fall back on this more than is necessary, Piggy. Just get your hands dirty with the game until you get a feel for it.

Dent: Thanks for posting! Good food for thought. Hope those connection probs work out.
Now we just need to get chickadee to post.

If I can think of something else to mention later I'll post again, but until then I'm off to judo practice. Yippee! =D

[homeless]

Amrun: Really sorry to hear that. =( Hoping for the best.

I ignored noraa's vote because he voted Cobbler for "making him feel lonely". Although that in itself is suspicious, it doesn't fit into the mold that I was trying to get at, about how mozamis and amrun voted Cobbler on the Roleblocker v.s. Jailer thing.

Pretty sure the 'made him feel lonely' thing was a joke... 'Finding that suspicious' is really stretching, especially when it's the beginning of the game when people just vote kind of randomly. Come on.

Just reading Masterp's posts, it's just non-stop self-contradiction and non-linear logic. I find myself unsure of what he's really actually trying to say.

She's off my radar for now, but we'll have to wait for something significant to happen before I can start raising suspicions for anyone.

"She's off my radar for now, but" - What would you expect to follow this? I would expect "if she messes up later I may not overlook it" or something similar, but he goes into an unrelated (and also mistaken) thought, saying we can't really be suspicious of "anyone" at this point. What? This is hard to follow.

And then he just proceeds to say some really obfuscating stuff:

I don't like how safe noraa, amrun, and mozamis are; it seems that they are coming off as (don't get me wrong here, I'm not accusing them of anything) *too* safe. This is exactly the type of situation I have been trying to avoid all game, having "super" trustworthy pro-town players that everyone will fall back onto. For example, mozamis voted for Cobblerfone here. Soon after that, Amrun follows suit. Now, I'm not saying this is a scumtell, but it appears to me that some fishy behaviour is taking place here.

Twice in this paragraph, you essentially accuse people of stuff (which by the way what you're accusing them of is pretty petty) but come up and say that you're not accusing them. If you have something to say, just say it. We don't need circular talk.
Also, the way I see it, nobody yet is "super" trustyworthy. And how the hell have you been "trying to avoid that situation all game"? I just don't even know what you're talking about.

Cobbler, would not normally ask this, but these are exceptional circumstances. Could u unvote Master until Amrun returns? He's only L-3,I know, but small danger of wagon building up on him while amrun is away and she will not be able to unvote.

I don't think this is necessary, but whatever.

@mozamis : I think you have good intentions, but the risk of MasterP getting lynched while Amrun is gone is fairly low, at this point. You can always back out latter as well if you feel the heat rising on him. Honestly, it also depends on how much you think he is scum. If you have an inkling, it might not be a bad idea to keep some pressure on him until others get back. But I think in this situation the choice is totally yours. I personally won't fault you for unvoting, nor will I assume you are scum for keeping your vote. This is, after all, only a game, so your intentions can be whatever you feel best in this circumstance. (Boy, I went round and round in circles on that, but I think it made sense.)

mozamis is voting for chickadee, not masterp...

Before reading that guide I forgot that you should ask for people to role-claim before getting them to L-2 and especially L-1.

BS. You unvoted only because of pressure, not because you had simply "forgotten" to ask for a role-claim and were reminded of it. I'd wager you didn't know to begin with, but either way, that's not even something somebody would just forget so easily, especially if they thought it was the right thing to do.

And really, wouldn't the scum try and make everyone suspicious of the most inexperienced player like you did? (They certainly are easy enough to lynch off if they don't think carefully.) Because it was your comments that pointed everyone towards me as being scum (besides homeless who thought I was scum for jumping on the bandwagon, but I cleared that up before you commented).

There are plenty of examples of scum purposely targetting experienced players, because they are the most threatened by the experienced. Probably this mostly takes place as night-kills, but it happens by voting, too. If they have difficulty throwing suspicion on an experienced player, they will just go with whomever they can get the town to lynch.

I'm not quite done reading through yet, but Cobbler is seeming very suspicious, because they're being somewhat of a power role in terms of leading the game. They seem to have been pinning things on people, in a way that doesn't so much come off as getting to know your fellow players.

If by "power role" you just mean that he is helping to keep the game rolling, okay. But in my book that's a good thing. Cobbler seems pretty fair and makes plenty of sense, so far.

What bias? Are you saying that you're basing your opinions off of your rankings rather than the other way around?

This comes across a little as twisting Dent's words... I don't think he's just making up random rankings and then using that to base his opinion on. He explained his reasons pretty well in his (I believe) 2nd game post.



Anyway, at this point, I would be voting for Masterp (although I've still plenty of suspicion for Piggy), but in the spirit of avoiding a fast lynch, I'll hold my vote for now.

[homeless]

@homeless - I only said I 'forgot' because everyone is telling me to stop using the "I'm new" card, so I figured I'd use the "I'm stupid and forgetful" card instead, but you're right, I really didn't know you should role-call someone first before putting them at L-2 or L-1.

This is why you don't use "cards", you just tell the truth. Trying to make excuses instead of just owning up only ends up making you look like scum. Even though you finally admitted to it, the damage is done. As much as I'd like to, I can't just forget about your posts at this point, so if I'm to let you off the hook it'd be from seeing you start to make a lot of sense, and also to help us catch some mafia (if you're still alive). I know, I know. You're new. But that's just how it goes.

mozamis: Would love to see what you've got to say. If anyone's going to be hard to detect scumminess, it's the IC. Let us know.

[homeless]

Very interesting observations, mozamis, thanks for pointing them out.
Although I can see where you are coming from, I'll give you my take on it.

About the "Why did you only address that question to Cobbler?" thing:
You're right, Cobbler did ask if Masterp had any questions, so Masterp naturally replied to that.
However, in response to Amrun's question, Masterp replies

Honestly, I forgot to ask everyone else. Though I am curious as to why you have voted me.

Instead of pointing out that Cobbler was looking to be asked a question, Masterp says "I forgot to ask everyone else." Why would he go out of his way to make something like this up, when he could just straight up say that he was replying to Cobbler? Being evasive like this is the mark of someone with a guilty conscience.

As for the perceived threat thing, I can actually see what Amrun was saying, and it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say that Masterp was being pretty defensive. Cobbler's question "Are you scum?" didn't come off as much of a serious question when I read it, so I think Masterp was overreacting. If he is "not new to Mafia games at all", as he says, then you can't explain this as being a newb.

So-she knows Master what master meant to say-he doesnt KNOW piggy is a mislynch -but it's a scum slip anyway?

Good point.

/end response to mozamis' post

Now, it's pretty obvious that Amrun and Masterp are NOT on the same scum team, because Amrun has attacked Masterp too much to just be covering a base, even voting him on two separate occasions, and has basically LEAD the attack. So if one of them is scum, it's one or the other. At this point, Masterp looks a lot scummier to me than Amrun does, for a number of reasons that I and others have pointed out. I wanna see what the others have to say though.

[homeless]

Good freaking crap!! Amrun is playing 11 games at once???? (counting just from how many posts she made about her father)
That. Is. Insane.

BTW, I don't like to involve meta-game when discerning who is mafia, if it can be avoided. So to me it doesn't mean she's scum, but still. wtf.

[homeless]

OMG after just rereading the thread I had a serious epiphany! I wanna post it in detail to see what everyone thinks, but I REALLY have to go to bed now! I have to get up early to go to a neighboring prefecture tomorrow to take the once-a-year JLPT (Japanese Language Proficiency Test), and writing up my post properly will just take too much time. Will be posting whenever I get back.

UNVOTE: PiggyGal15

[homeless]

All right I finally got back! By the way, I think my test went well so yay!




Down to business.
I've got a few things to say about mozamis.
First of all, what got me started on this is when it occurred to me that he is simply going after Amrun way too much. As I wrote when I responded to his post earlier, I just don't honestly see that much that is scummy about Amrun. And I challenge any of you to find a good reason that Amrun is scum.
I don't see it.

I'm not concerned about his first vote on Amrun. It could have been random for all anyone knows. Not a big deal.
But let's take a look at just how much energy he has spent going after/refuting Amrun.

That isn't why my vote is on masterp.

why is it?

Yes, I know what you mean, he seemed a touch over defensive. But (as u hint), I find people ARE pretty defensive when accused of being scum in these noob games.
So atm he's still totally neutral to me.

you have left vote on Cobbler Amrun. Still think he's scum?

so you dont find Piggy suspicious at all?

Amrun u said this about Cobbler very recently:

I still think the questions were likeleier to come from a scum mindset, yes.

You seem to have changed your mind quite quickly. Could you clarify your position on Cobbler and Master? Do you now think they are both scum?

Amrun, please answer my q: do you think Cobbler and Master are both scum?

UNVOTE VOTE AMRUN

Wasn't liking the way she was switching wagons. More later.

yes, the IC is aproblem in these games beacuse they do there job by posting lins, discussing theory, giving advice etc Which is what we all need, myself included Danger is you never quite know when they are "active lurking" (posting a fair bit but without really scum hunting).
Still, you have to be careful not to be too suspicious of the IC -after all, statistically they only have the same chance of being scum as everyone else.
BUt I have [not] really liked Amrun's posting so far. I need to stick up some evidence for that which I will do soon when I have a bit more time.
And to be honest, that was what I was really driving at with the whole "dont vote for masterp until amrun gets back". If she's scum, we obviously dont want her vote just hanging on Masterp.
Kinda feel bad because she obviously has some bad real life stuff going on. But logically, that has no bearing on what role pm she was sent.

<mozamis' main post against Amrun... too long to quote>

@Amrun: sice your last post in this game, you have made 37(I think) posts in your other games. Why have you not posted in this game? Why have you not bothered to respond to my vote on you?
For the record peeps -most townies normally get abit annoyed when somone votes for them. Why nothing from Amrun?
Getting keener on an Amrun lynch.

yes, there r problems with meta. It just doesn't look good though, does it? Posting in all those other games but not this one.

She's made four posts today in other games.

and she's made a few other posts this afternoon. Amrun why are you avoiding this game? And my questions?
People, we are going to need a few more votes on Amrun to get her to respond.

another five or so posts from Amrun tonight in other games. At the very least, she's entirely neglecting her IC duties. Looks more like scum avoidance though to me.
C'mon peeps, lets get this show on the road and lynch her.

Okay, so I'll be the first to admit that a lot of these posts

on their own

are perfectly fine and could be totally normal scum-hunting/questioning. But especially after Amrun's hiatus announcement, mozamis is taking this rather far very quickly. I was a little bewildered when mozamis voted Amrun to begin with. His arguments against her didn't hold much water to me. He totally ignored my refutations about it, and now he just wants to lynch her right away, and his main argument at this point is a meta issue.


Now, I really think

Masterp

is scum. So much now that it's just painful. And there's just no way, unless the IC planned to bus the F*CK out of a newbie right from the get-go, that Amrun can be Masterp's scum partner.

BUT MOZAMIS CAN.

mozamis has not participated in the case against Masterp, and has in fact been defending him.

First on mislynching: it's simply where we, as town, genuinely think someone is scum, lynch him, and they flip town. We have made a mistake, hence mislynch.
Clearly, this is undesirable. So Master is wrong about this -we don't want to deliberately mislynch, that would be against pur win con. Sometimes people will say "Ah, but you get information from who was on the lynch wagon" which can be true -but again, clearly it would be optimal for town to try and lynch scum.
Second: HOWEVER, and this may be the confusion, it is quite likely that we WILL mislynch. Thats just the stats of ML. I dont know them exactly, maybe Amrun does, but its not important. The FACT is, town mislynches more often than not on Day 1.
But none the less, lynching Piggy thinking it probably is a mislynch, as Master seems to be saying, is clearly not in towns interest.

However, (and no doubt the IC and SE's will accuse me of WIFOM here, but no matter -intuition is something you can't and should not ignore) it seems highly unlikely that Master as scum would be so obviously saying "Lets mistlynch a townie, people!". (Reason this is "wifom" on my part is you can say " aah, maybe thats a double bluff from master rep" and so on- but frankly, its just unlikely in a noob game).
Piggy looks like confused new town to me, which is fair enough as this is a noob game
So both piggy and master looking neutral/town to me atm.

mozamis goes round and round here, in the end basically giving a token admission that Masterp is wrong (which was obvious to everyone at this point) but defending him and saying he's neutral.

ah sorry forgot I had left my vote on Piggy

UNVOTE

vote arthur dent

for lurking.
I hate scum winning thru lurking, which DOES happen in these noob games. And no, I'm not saying "lynch all lurkers", but we must not lynch anyone day one until we have a roughly equal input from everyone. Or that should be the goal anyway.
So we need to hear more from dent, homeless,chickadee.

He gets off the failed bandwagon on Piggy and tries to divert attention away from Masterp by voting for a lurker and calling the others out.
After Dent posts, mozamis continues his lurker hunt (voting for chickadee), and continues to ignore Masterp's situation.

God sorry to hear that Amrun thoughts with u.
gotta long time before the deadlind so we'll make sure not to lynch anyone before you get back. Not thats imporatant for u right now, I realise. sorry

Cobbler, would not normally ask this, but these are exceptional circumstances. Could u unvote Master until Amrun returns? He's only L-3,I know, but small danger of wagon building up on him while amrun is away and she will not be able to unvote.

@Arthur -yes, fair point. My main point really is that we MUST NOT lynch Master before Amrun gets back, because she may want to unvote.
And to be clear, I'm not even suggesting we should lynch Master, but this is a"pre-emptive wagon" strike, if you like.

Here's his chance! Here he is desperately trying to derail the lynch on Masterp, even putting words in the mouth of the town. ("we'll make sure not to lynch anyone")
And from here we return to his renewed attack on Amrun, in which he continues to ignore statements against Masterp.

In light of this, it also strikes me that mozamis and Masterp were the very two people who voted Piggy after I did. I think mozamis knew that blitz-lynching Cobbler for one silly statement would look bad and would implicate both mafiosos if Masterp came on to vote, so he switched to the safer lynch of Piggy.

Obviously I can't vote for two people at once, so first let's deal with the very strong scum-read of Masterp.

VOTE: Masterp443

So that's my take. All discussion of Amrun's posting patterns is certainly welcome, too, because I really do want to see what anybody might have to say.

@Cobbler: Naturally it is my wish that you change your vote back to Masterp, and indeed I wish I could have posted this all yesterday to convince you so before you switched, but if you still feel you need to get an explanation from Amrun first, that's understandable.

@mod: Masterp's votecount is down to 1, not 2. Yay for first votecount! ;p

[homeless]

@Cobbler: Naturally it is my wish that you change your vote back to Masterp, and indeed I wish I could have posted this all yesterday to convince you so before you switched, but if you still feel you need to get an explanation from Amrun first, that's understandable.

My main suspect is still Masterp and if he gets up to L-1 before Amrun returns I'll ask for a claim and hammer, depending on how long it's been. I'm just leaving my vote on Amrun as an incentive to post here.

Sounds good to me.

2 immeditae points Homeless:
1) I am going after amrun because she is scum.
2) I dont think master is scum.
So that kinda refutes the first half of your post.

1) Or because you are?
2) THIS is exactly what I want to address. It looks really bad to defend someone like Masterp with so little as "I don't think he's scum." You have the most posts in this thread by far (42 now), but you've managed to avoid this topic almost entirely. And I don't think your current target is so suspicious that you can have the leisure of ignoring that conversation.

just celebrating town victory! I'll deal with you later Homeless grrrrr lol only kidding. But u r on the wrong track. I'm guessing u mainly dont like my "tuneeling" of Amrun. But I really think shes scum. And when u think that, you have to go for it with all barrells. I've learned from my other noob games that when you shilly shally around, people tend not to go for it.

Going for it with all barrels is great when you have something solid to back it up. Not saying you can't put the pressure on Amrun but I think you've stepped the bounds considering the situation.

[homeless]

Not a lot of time to analyze everything at the moment, but:

@mozamis: Actually it is really annoying having to read a ton of small posts. It gets incoherent very quickly, makes it harder to quote you, and is unnecessary. Please cut it out. It's starting to make you sound really desperate, too, so for your own sake, even, just post normally.
Also, earlier you asked me to say why I think Masterp is scum. I've already spent a fair amount of time saying what I don't like about his posts, so you can just go back and read. If you have a more specific question, on the other hand...

Now, there is something bothing me though, and that is the idea of MasterP and Mozamis being scum buddies. I honestly don't think this is the case. I get the feeling that is MasterP is scum, then Mozamis is town, granted a over zealous town, but town. I cannot fathom why he would so aggressively try to protect MasterP. That would make it blantant they were scum buds and would be awful play, in my opinion. To me, this makes my gut feel like mozamis is a town trying to be hunt down someone, but I think he is barking the wrong tree with Amrun. My honest feeling is that MasterP is teaming with either someone on his voting board (which could be why everyone is being very protective of getting a final vote on him) or it is the one players not voting for him... Chickadee or noraaa. Chickadee's absense is really flying under the radar but is really bothering me. Noraaa also had a brief drive-b-post. I have seen this use by scum partners who are trying to avoid getting dirt on them. MasterP is the highest target for a lynch and has the most suspitions of being scum. The best option for his partner is not to defend him, but to avoid getting associated with him. Best way? Don't get noticed by not posting. I have lost too many games by this stragety, so I am going to call it out now. I highly doubt that the person voting for MasterP are his partner, and I am doubting his vocal nay-sayer is his partner, so I am way more inclinded to believe the silent are deadly.

Honestly, this is the one thing that plagued me when calling out mozamis, but I think he needed to be called out.
Blatantly defending your scum partner is just waaaay too obvious.

But,

he really has very little reason to defend him. And he hasn't much reason (from my eyes) to go after Amrun so much. It's just all very bewildering and strange. It doesn't make good sense.
I agree about the lurkers, too. It's very frustrating having nothing to go on (mozamis never disappoints in the post-count department), but what can you do? Until we can get them to post or be replaced, it's hard to do anything with them short of an all-out lurker witch hunt.
Anyway, I'm by no means tied to the idea of mozamis being mafia, but I think he now warrants a lot of attention. I wanted to open that discussion, on the chance I could get NK'd before being able to post my thoughts about him.

Purely in the spirit of providing every opportunity to those accused, I'm not against waiting for Masterp to reply, but I don't expect this to happen at this point. He's caught, and he knows it. It seems to me that mafia (particularly newbies) give up and stop posting when under pressure sooner than townies do. Townies know their being accused is bogus, and they'll fight it harder; mafia, on the other hand, know when they've been found out and so are more likely to throw in the towel.
Also, I don't give a damn what role he wants to claim, ONLY what he has to say about everything. If he claims a power role, are we going to not lynch him? Not lynching him would just hurt the town's game (read: ability to go after scummy people) at this point. I'd lynch him no matter what role he wants to claim.
But anyway, if you want to wait, let's wait.

Just as an aside to discuss theory:

I don't think there's much good in pressuring a person to claim. If they happen to claim all on their own with no pressure, then fine. But in the case of asking for a claim, the whole reason you're looking for a claim in the first place is because you think they're scum. And THEY are claiming to save their ass. Can you see the faulty logic in even giving a shit what they claim? What you should do is pretty simple. You should lynch them because they're scummy. Mafia can talk and talk all day but none of it really makes a difference if they are scummy. Some of them are even clever enough to post some really confusing shit that will have the town WIFOM'd for a fortnight afterward. (Yeah, I just used that word... fortnight.) And then of course you have things to consider such as what Cobbler mentioned before about "narrowing the power role pool" for the Mafia to focus their NK's on, assuming the claimer is in fact town and you decide not to lynch him.
If anybody (especially our IC) can give some pro's for claiming, though, I'd love to hear them. (Besides the obvious "if they are town and we believe them we've saved a townsperson from being lynched" argument, which I don't think holds much water when discussing claiming.)

[homeless]

Thanks Eijolend for replacing in.
noraaa glad to see you posting again.

Just want everyone to know I'm reading the best I can, I just have a lot of shit to take care of with school, preparing to leave the country, etc.
And I fear I'm only going to get even busier. X( Will try to keep up, though.

And just one thing: mozamis voting for Cobblerfone not sitting well. For one, Cobblerfone doesn't look scummy to me, and two, mozamis' rather insane barrage of Amrun he just leaves like that? Call it a compromise, but mozamis' only reason I can find from his iso (besides Cobbler's earlier now-infamous "wifom" post) is that Cobbler put Masterp at L-1. OF COURSE HE DID. Masterp is freaking scummy, he's not posting anymore, and he was Cobbler's main suspect anyway. It makes god damn sense.

Also, after reading his iso:

please don't let Cobbler's discussion of theory with Amrun fool you into thinking they are scum hunting.

Thanks for popping in and talking about theory Cobbler!
Weird, long post forom Homeless, me asking people for reasons why they are voting master, and all you do is talk about theory?

It's like he's trying to praise Cobbler and make him look bad for it at the same time? What?

[homeless]

Hey guys, really sorry for lack of posting. >_<;
Hoping to get some time this weekend!