Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[crazypianist1116]

Confirming in thread I guess?

[crazypianist1116]

That's the mod's choice. Regardless, we should wait till the game is officially declared open.

[crazypianist1116]

Hey everybody!
I'm crazypianist1116, you can call me any shortened variant of that if you prefer. I'm one of your SEs for the game which means I've played a few games before this one. If you want to ask questions about how to play feel free, but they're probably supposed to be directed at the IC Romanus.

For those who have no clue what's going on, we're in the Random Voting Stage. But this vote should get us out of here:

VOTE: Misder
No reason for unvoting.

A few questions to everybody:
1. How much experience playing mafia do you have?
2. Why do you enjoy playing mafia?

My answer to one is in my wiki which should be linked on the left hand side. As for two, I really enjoy the game because it's a great battle of wits and logical deduction when you're town, and when you're mafia, it's a great game of deception

[crazypianist1116]

Misder, I'm still not seeing how you got a town read from [L] after talking about non-game related content. It's called RVS for a reason.
UTC - 5 now but will be UTC - 6 on Sunday.

What is your favourite thing to claim while under pressure as scum?

Asking what someone would do as scum is a bit WIFOM-y, ne?

[crazypianist1116]

This

Wait, I thought we were pressuring Misder?
Um, so, do I vote now, or let somebody else do that :/

I'll go with it.

Unvote: McGriddle
Vote: Misder

And don't hammer 'til we get some stuff from him!

followed by this

I must say that was kind of weird-looking. I mean, you convince me to vote Misder, then... Jump off so you're not blamed?

I don't like that. I don't have much experience with that sort of thing, but it seems... off.

Unvote
Vote: Romanus

equals this:

FoS: cjdrum

It's called bandwagonning. Blatent bandwagonning.

I would vote but this:

Lost. Why is the IC being difficult? Is difficulty all of a sudden a good playstyle? :/

Lost.

Makes me think it's more of a newb tell.

Now for a case on prosaurus.
His two analyses on Misder and Romanus were just way off.

Analysis on: Misder

Town reads in green

Scum reads in red

Neutral in black

Unvote [L]

Fair enough. The thing here is, if he keeps his vote, people could say he has no valid reason to vote. Watch what happens if he unvotes.

That's what RVS is. You could have criticized anyone else on the first page for randomly voting. They all had no reason to vote, but you don't unvote in RVS because it gets you to interesting situations where people start slipping up.

@cjdrum
1) not voting yet, waiting for more activity right now
2) as of right now, zMuffinMan. I feel he is most protown right now alongside with [L], but since I already had some sort of relationship with [L] in the RVS stage, zMuffinMan would be the ideal choice.

And

Cause I have time, can everyone link one game (from this site or another) that they have played in? It's ok if you don't have a game to link, cause I don't. The forum I played in needed permission to get in...

So far, I only got one game, and that was from Prosaurus, and I dont know if that was accidental or not.

Odd choice of scumbuddy. Choosing who you think is most town?

Um, scum would obviously want the most pro-town players on their team, ne?

@[L] It's the same way you are viewing me. I see you as more protown than others (no where do I mention that I'm positive that you are innocent like you state) the same way you view me as more scummy than others. Simple as that. In my book of notes, you and muffin are the only ones that don't have some sort of slight scum read, esp. since you guys questioned the same things I have in my notes, therefore less scummy. I'll agree that it is very early though, which is why I'm holding back all of my thoughts until later when I actually get more evidence on people.

If you and [L] were scum, this would put us off it. We'd say only one of you was scum.

This is very WIFOM-y.

@[L] Admittedly, he only has two posts and his second one I got a null read also. However, I like his first post only because of his attack on Romanus. These are my notes for him:
31

Hi

1. How much experience playing mafia do you have?
2. Why do you enjoy playing mafia?

1. Pretty much none. A friend told me about this game and said it'd be the kind of thing I'd like. He linked me here and I've read a few games he's played in, if that counts for experience at all...
2. Well, it looks like I'd find it enjoyable.

Vote: Romanus

I don't see why you needed to tell us that your vote wasn't serious.

A legit vote cause I was thinking the same thing/or should have been even more, slight town read

@Romanus

You're giving us zero credit if you really think we need to be spoon-fed that badly. Being new doesn't mean we're stupid.

On the topic of making things clear, could you explain the irony in your reasoning for voting me? Jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so my vote stands.

Agree with Muffin on second paragraph, read is null on this post, but makes more sense if it was town; if Romanus maf, Muffin town imo
38

Australian EST (+10 GMT, +1 for DST), it's 2:22pm now.

I get on when I can, time varies a lot because my current sleeping pattern. I'll probably be posting somewhere between midday and midnight my time most days.

null read

Again, I'm saying that I didn't get a scummy read on him. Everyone else I get something I don't really like.

Like attacking the IC, do you?

Like not pointing out at all what's scummy or why the IC shouldn't be attacked, do you?

@crazy, its the way she plays and how she says things that I like. Sure, maybe first 2 posts aren't ever going to be definite, but that's why I keep note of things that happen after. And with more posts from her, I still like her play except for maybe a small part, but I will still stand that she has pretty much played town so far.
edit before posting: so it seems like pro is on the opposite side of me on [L] which is fine. I disagree with the analysis on the second to last post- I actually view this as town because it pretty much is true. However, I do agree with analysis on the last post, as it did seem a bit scummy to me also, but I view her posts as overall townplay right now.

@zMuffinMan Your vote on Romanus- is it more due to his first post or his OMGUS vote?

Making his own analysis on [L]. Good.

Still trying to convince us [L] is town. Scumbuddies,

Or being honest?

Trying to put words into people's mouths much? Regarding the quote in question:

"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

True. But this may be scummy. Mafia don't wish people to be cleared, as it makes those people harder to lynch, meaning a night kill must be used on them, but then people will know that person's reads were honest.

[L] was contradicting cjdrum, who was calling [L] "cleared" town. [L] replied by saying that clearing anyone is not possible. Thinking anyone is "cleared" can lead to tunneling as well as ignoring the "cleared" person. Which can be really bad if the "cleared" person is scum. [L]'s quote was town.

@zMuffinMan
1) In this type of setup, yes. Well, this is my first time playing this setup so uhh... read 2 for more I guess.
2) In other forums where games are much bigger and fast-pased (like 30 ppl and days are 48 hours), it usually started out with just a random lynch, however, these random lynches first start out from voting to lynch inactives, but of course this will lead to discussion, and then, that's where moving the game forward is very easy. I'll also add that I usually don't even participate in the voting to lynch the inactives. In this type of setup, RVS is kind of the same function as what I'm used to; it'll eventually lead to discussion. However, even without RVS, discussion about anything will eventually lead to something (kind of like RQS I guess, but I'm talking about anything here). Of course, deadline is a great incentive to vote, so even if at the end, no one is "scummy", then there will still be an attempted lynch that will move the game forward.
Hope my answers aren't too confusing. I feel like I just blabbled.

True, inactives aren't much of a threat to scum, are they?

But you are talking about in other games, so that doesn't really count.

There's a reason there's a phrase called Lynch all Lurkers. Not that I subscribe to it, but active lurking can be very scummy. You still have the power to vote and do night actions, but you aren't contributing to discussion at all. Lurking or flaking on the other hand is more of a null tell.

@zMuff - I told you it wasn't serious because this is a newbie game, and most especially early on, I feel it is my job as IC to make sure I'm being very clear about what is going on. But jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so this one is serious:

Unvote

Vote: zMuffinMan

1) I've been playing off and on for 5 years or so. Started with meat world playing and then found this site. I haven't been around here in a while, but I plan on being a fixture for a while now.
2) Oddly enough, one of the reasons I play is because I teach writing in college and MS contains some of the best essays on the internet. But also, I just love games, from tabletop minis to board, card, Wow. Yeah, I'll play just about any game.

Too early to make serious votes. He was voting for the person he had most evidence for, no matter how little that was, as this was RVS.

Ha funny. You criticize Romanus for making a serious vote yet it's a response to muffin's serious vote. Romanus saw Muffin's vote as bad. I think that's quite obvious.

To answer the questions that have been directed at me:

I believe it is my role to ease players into playing this game that I believe is valuable and fun. I love writing, and it is a great way to exercise my brain and stretch my writing skills. I made a point to post early. I do not want to assume the level of knowledge of any player. And also, considering the mountain of wiki pages dedicated to strategies and scumtells, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has posited that confirmation order could be a scumtell. I hope to accomplish this by explaining different things that are going on if, and when they need to be explained. And also, to be a good player. I will play to win. I will also keep things in a friendly tone. I want to encourage people to play.

The itty bitty thing that I saw zMuff jump on, was the very thing I described above. He voted me for trying to fulfill my role as IC. I'm not sure why, even if done poorly, this is a good reason to vote someone.

Now, zMuff may retort, "But my vote was just as unserious as your vote!" To which I would reply, "But I think it was made to look innocent, so that you could push a wagon for an innocent reason."

But you also haven't been pushing, just waiting.

Scum hunting,

But with a lack of evidence.

Evidence in bold. Regardless, why the second sentence isn't red, I don't know as lack of evidence is a scum tell.

As IC: I did not just use the abbreviation RVS. I used the words Random Vote Stage, which I think is pretty self explanatory. Are you really accusing me of thinking people are smart and stupid at the same time? Also, I wanted to post early to demonstrate how things kinda work. I don't know how things work on other boards. I also know that the opening of the game is the stage that is the hardest to get through.

As Player: I absolutely think that my reason for voting you could be seen as an innocent reason for pushing a wagon. And yes, there is a reason to wait and not push. Right now is not a very good time to dig your heels in.

The most scummy person I see now is Misder. His posts lack genuine scumhunting.

Unvote
Vote: Misder

Grabbing an instrument and jumping on the wagon.

With evidence though.

Romanus, if you have yet to, read this article. You can't criticize him for "jumping on the wagon" if you think his reasons are valid.

To be honest, I think crazy explained it much better than you did.

As IC: I have no problem admitting that I did it poorly. I'd also love suggestions as to how to do the "ease in" in a better fashion.

An IC asking how to be an IC?

If you're the one to "ease them into the game" they'll trust you to be town...

Unless you help them scumhunt, while doing it yourself

If it hasn't been pointed out already:

Don't trust authority because they are authority.

Your point is valid Prosaurus except Romanus has been scumhunting.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Only scum want bandwagons.

>_> Bandwagons can be useful. The reactions that someone gives from being under pressure can often reveal them to be scum or town. Also, jumping on a bandwagon for shitty reasons (e.g. cjdrum) is very scummy.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Townies best and only weapon is their vote. I treat my vote as a weapon. I hate leaving my vote in an innocuous place. Takes away it's teeth and becomes less of a weapon or no weapon at all.

And I support the Misder wagon up until the point I no longer believe he is likely scum.

Only scum want speedlynches.

Is this not obvious?

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Conclusion:

Very scummy.

Unvote

VOTE: Prosaurus

[crazypianist1116]

@cjdrum:
3.5 people call you scummy and all you have to say is "I don't get why this one person is voting me?" You are getting scummier by the post. Prosaurus' posts look more newb than scum to me so:

Unvote

VOTE: cjdrum

@Prosaurus:
I read your game and you were lynched basically for not scumhunting. Now you are scumhunting. That does not excuse you from the fact that I didn't like your scumhunting. Bad evidence => Trying to mislynch => Scum.

Further, you must understand Romanus' reason for unvoting. Specifically:

A speed lynch would have been some pretty damning evidence. But the possibility, in a Newbie game, of a player playing the "I'm a noob, I made a mistake" card, made me reconsider L-1.

This is a valid point. Not that there aren't better ways of going about this. One could for example inform the town in bold caps that we're at l-1 and another vote will cause a lynch. That would generally be enough warning to prevent a newb from doing such a thing.

Re: Speed lynches: I was not agreeing that only scum want a speed lynch. Romanus was not saying he wanted a speed lynch. I was referring to this quote:

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

You disconnected the "Is this not obvious?" part from that quote.

I know. I try to think of at least one town read and one scum read per quote.

I just don't like this in general. In can lead to major fence sitting and make you very unsure of yourself. Trying to think of things that aren't there just seems like a bad idea.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Only scum want bandwagons.

>_> Bandwagons can be useful. The reactions that someone gives from being under pressure can often reveal them to be scum or town. Also, jumping on a bandwagon for shitty reasons (e.g. cjdrum) is very scummy.

Learning. I don't like bandwagons though.

That's great. Then point out who on the bandwagon you think is in the wrong and why. Pressure, what Romanus was talking about on the other hand, is different. I'll admit I should have said this the first time around, but as Romanus pointed out, I was taking the more liberal definition of bandwagon.

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

Addendum: If you aren't voting for who you think is the most suspicious, why not?

[crazypianist1116]

@cjdrum: Have you read the thread?

Not because I have some power role, but because I want to learn past my first Day. Thanks all.

Softclaim PR?

[crazypianist1116]

Also, do you realize you have 3 votes on you at the moment and have only partially tried to defend yourself against one?

@[L] and Misder:
Thoughts on cjdrum and prosaurus?

[crazypianist1116]

WE ARE AT L-1! NO ONE VOTE CJDRUM UNLESS YOU ARE SURE OF YOUR VOTE AND HAVE ASKED FOR A CLAIM!

Posting from my phone. More later.

[crazypianist1116]

If I wanted to be that blatant, I would have said "Don't lynch him! He's on my team!" But I didn't. My post was merely a warning to everyone so we don't have people playing the newbcard D2.

[crazypianist1116]

So you're saying we should hammer you, but you don't want to be hammered? Can you give us some reasons as to why you think what you did was scummy/why you did them? Perhaps try to explain why you think you shouldn't be lynched for those reasons?

Re: 2 IC's in a row being scum, that's not how probability works.

[crazypianist1116]

Now we're getting somewhere. You're giving reasons for your actions. Not particularly good, but they're explanations. Now do you realize that that's not how scumhunting works? People need to individually develop their own opinions of other people, not just blindingly follow the person who's voting (i.e. bandwagonning).

As for probability, I meant that the chance of an IC being scum in any one particular game is 2/9. That doesn't go down because an IC was scum in your previous game. To give another example, take flipping a coin. The probability of getting four heads in a row is 1/16. But the probability of getting a head after getting 3 heads is still 1/2.

[crazypianist1116]

cjdrum, that's a lynch. Pro, was that really necessary?

[crazypianist1116]

Well, are you honestly town?

[crazypianist1116]

@Misder

Just putting it out there, if cjdrum isn't mafia, mafia is crazy+romanus. That's guts right there, but I like my intuition.

Vote: Romanus

I'll let Pro handle the hammer if he so chooses.

I'm trying to understand your logic here. If you really thought that, wouldn't you hammer cjdrum first to check whether or not he is town or mafia?

This.

[crazypianist1116]

[L] you weren't voting for cjdrum, so it wouldn't matter anyways.

[crazypianist1116]

Misder, don't say I did no scumhunting after Prosaurus and cjdrum. You're lying. Also, which of my past games are you comparing me to?

[crazypianist1116]

Well, Prosaurus, not necessarily. Any reliable information gained from night actions will be believed, but no night has happened yet. Everything else is just opinion as cjdrum is in the dark the same as the rest of us.
Misder, your answer to the question at the top of the page?
Preview-edit: I lol'd at that cjdrum.

[crazypianist1116]

If pointing out flaws in other people's arguments isn't scumhunting, what is? Also what are the parallels?

[crazypianist1116]

VOTE: Prosaurus
I'm not convinced the hammer was completely altruistic especially after I was getting somewhere asking cjdrum questions. Playing the newb card so much for my case against him yesterday didn't settle well with me either.

I'll let Romanus respond to wingdamage's vote before I give my opinion to that.

[crazypianist1116]

Well everyone was sent a pm.

[crazypianist1116]

I can't even begin to explain the WIFOM in the above statement. On top of that, Romanus is an unliked player and if he isn't scum then it would be easy for scum to lynch him rather than waste a night kill on him. You also give no reason for WHY scum should have killed the IC.

[crazypianist1116]

So that's L-1. Prosaurus, if you want to claim now you can but waiting till someone threatens to vote is generally the suggested time to claim.

Misder and Romanus, thoughts?

[crazypianist1116]

The random fluff questions they posted.

Can you quote them? I looked at both of them in ISO and in the normal thread and could not put 2 and 2 together.

Dang fool twisting my words. Did not tell the IC how to word things. L-2 is never really good so early. Did not say it's against any rules. Yes scumhunt. Yes vote. No speedlynch.

Like Romanus was saying, voting someone to L-1 puts pressure on them. The person is receiving pressure because they were scummy. Romanus then unvoted because he didn't want scum to hammer before any information was gained. This is a legit play in my opinion. It is not classified as a speedlynch.

Speedlynch

A speedlynch is a very quick lynch, resulting from several votes one after another. Often used by mafia to win games when in the endgame, or by the town when a confirmed Sane Cop has a guilty result. Often criticised for wasting information that could be gathered during the Day, or warned against to promote caution in Lynch or Lose situations.

Example

5 players are alive, two of which are mafia. (A common scenario on Day 3 of a Newbie Game) If one of the townies votes for another townie, both mafia can jump on the bandwagon before the voting townie can unvote, and the mafia win the game immediately.

From the wiki. Speedlynches are what happens on later days, not day 1. So your explanation for being against these things is not legit.

Was saying it was possible. Not certain.

Good job!

You know what FoS is right? It's like a quarter vote, when I'm not sure I use it.

Yes I know what it is. But it's a commonly used scum tool, so they can switch and hop onto any bandwagon that's getting steam.

I are suspicious, and of course I'm going to be careful after my last game.
Good job.
Herp Derp genius. Mafia don't speedlynch each other.
WIFOM. They could.
Like Romanus didn't predict cjdrum's lynch.

Let's take a look at the difference.

This is a bit of an aside, and maybe a defense of some sort. As is in my signature, I like stirring shit. It has to be done. The best way to get it done is to do some controversial thing. I have done that. I took a stand for a type of play I like, that is, getting someone close to a lynch and seeing how people react. The quickness and ease at which the L-1 vote came in made me reconsider what was going on. Attention has to be drawn somewhere. And I don't mind being in the spotlight. I say things that will generate reactions. Things I fully intend to explain later, like the "Yes I can, No I won't," line.

Unvoting when it got to L-1 was prudent. It could also be interpreted a few ways. I also determined that my vote was in the wrong place.

I was and continue to hunt scum. I have my methods, and I like them.

cjdrum is our lynch for today. Opinions?

vs.

@Romanus Acting confident, are we? Unless you can convince us you aren't scum (Which will be hard), I see a lynch in your future.

Haha, nice mood change there.

Was not a lie. I said he was scumhunting if anything.

Without evidence. That's what you said.

I'm sorry. Wut?

Crazy started examining you, and in 3 posts you stressed that you "were learning" and denied saying that Romanus was not scumhunting. Right after responding to crazy, you say "McGriddle should really post." That's what I call deflection.

Lol nice memory bro. Go over your analysis again.

First off, I'm not your "bro". I don't have anything dangling between my legs. I went over my analysis again and again before I posted. I even went over it again after you responded. And it the same. "Asks for everyone else's opinion on who is scummy. Says he thinks Romanus is still the most suspicious, but praises him for being like an IC and says he's rethinking his vote on Romanus... when he's already unvoted. Wishy washy scummy." You have only responded with one word answers and quips to everything I posted.

Yet.

??

Well I don't.

Not sufficient.

How?

You explained away your different playstyle from when you were town before, when Misder noticed and called you out on it. You proceed to make a comment about cjdrum about how he's likely a newb, and the way you worded it seems like you were saying he's likely newb town. Then you say "Cjdrum, read my last game. It's happening to you now." How is that not likening your past position as a townie to cjdrum's? It's clearly bringing similarity into the discussion.

Fluff how? I had reasons. 1)Letting him defend himself 2)Confirming. READ. 3)Wanted to know how newb they were.
I did read. That's why I'm accusing you. What are those reasons you speak of?
Lynched if scummy, NKed if town. I say ICs are much too experienced, and new people don't want the IC lynched much, so if IC is scum they have a better chance at winning.

I'm not understanding, still. Why are IC's to be treated any differently than any other player in the game, except for the fact that they know more than us? Your reasoning is flawed and very WIFOM-y because if the IC is scum, they win easily, because the town won't lynch them because they need the assistance the IC provides?? And that the mafia will always target the IC if he's town because they want the town to run around like chickens with their heads cut off? My head is twisted...

Console meaning...?

Console meaning you told cjdrum "Better luck next time! Sorry to see you go! Have a nice life!" Yeah, that type of consolation.

Well they got scummier and scummier, thought if they and Romanus were scum, they'd be better to lynch first.

But you were bandwagoning onto cjdrum. It was as if he was the most convenient one to get rid of. Seriously, this is what convinced me of your scumminess, combined with your slip-ups.

Who would lie during twilight? Even if I did think they could be lying. D:

So you believe he could have been lying, even though you doubt anyone would lie during twilight? Hmmm, let me think this one over.

Why would scum wonder why scum killed who they did?

Do you really have to ask this like I'm stupid? Mafia's goal is to deceive.

Dang fool. Seem to be pushing towards me a bit much.

Seems? I am pushing hard against you because you are guilty.

Is this what you intended?

[crazypianist1116]

If we have a cop, would they mind investigating me?

1. We might not have a cop.
2. You're asking a cop to claim just to save yourself.
3. If there's a roleblocker, and the cop claims, the cop will automatically be roleblocked.
4. Rolefishing

Cop should only claim if there's a definite way to win, they've found guilty (and the guilty person isn't going to be lynched), or if an innocent person is being lynched. For the second one, it's better to stay unknown if the person you got a guilty on is already on his way to being lynched.

[crazypianist1116]

Oh boy! Another premature lynch! What did you think you'd accomplish with that, Wing?

[crazypianist1116]

VOTE: No Lynch

Hey guys. So since there are 2 scum left and 6 people total, if we mislynch, the only chance we have of continuing is if the doc blocks the kill again. Our chances of winning will actually go up if we don't lynch today. That being said, if through a doc/cop combo we can confirm scum then by all means we will lynch today. If there's a cop, claim if you got guilty. Doc shouldn't claim yet.

Hi Zorblag.

[crazypianist1116]

Zorblag, I'd like to know your logic behind why a fullclaim is better than partial reveal. If there's no cop, then just a doc reveal will inevitably lead to a no lynch and the doc being killed tonight. Further, I highly doubt scum didn't try to kill last night. Yes I know it's WIFOM but it's just so unlikely.

Cop should claim if their results are 2 living innocents as well.

[crazypianist1116]

Before we start claiming everyone should at the very least agree that they will claim when asked and that they support the idea of mass claiming. Also, I want opinions from Zorblag on the first two days as Romanus gave no content yesterday.

[crazypianist1116]

Not doc.

[crazypianist1116]

VT
Misder.

[crazypianist1116]

Oh excuse me.
Popcorn to Misder.

[crazypianist1116]

Ok so there we have it. Wing's doc and Misder's confirmed. If anyone wants to give reasons to the contrary go ahead but I don't think it's possible/probable otherwise. We should no lynch today as there's no confirmed scum and only 2 confirmed town. Everyone should give any opinions they want to before we make the no lynch final.

[crazypianist1116]

Hmmmm I suppose you're right. I was thinking that a nk would confirm the reads of today, but I don't really see scum making such a risky gambit.

Unvote

I'll discuss my opinions tomorrow as well.

[crazypianist1116]

Wow I can't believe you made that post zmuffin. So much WIFOM. Regardless, if you can show me a game where scum don't choose to nightkill in a newbie game I might somewhat believe you, but you just earned major scum points. The chance of scum gambling like that is highly unlikely, as a counterclaim would automatically make one of the two scum.

If you actually believed your points, you'd be voting no lynch right now.

[crazypianist1116]

The point is that what you said is so highly unlikely. What's the benefit of scum choosing to not kill? So they can enter a possible gambit situation like the one described above? It's not advantageous at all. If they kill, they more often then not get rid of another town player. There are very few situations where scum will choose to not kill at all, and this is certainly not one of them. It has nothing to do with the fact that this is a newbie game. If you want to play the whole know vs. think game then fine. Yes scum could have chosen to not kill. But it's extremely unlikely and I see no benefit whatsoever for scum to do it. As I said, give me an example of where in a similar position where scum has done such a thing and I'll accept your postulations as a possibility. But as far as I know, there is no advantage to scum not killing in this situation.

If you do not believe the claims are true, then you should be voting for no lynch as we can get more information from that since we're only in MyLo. But I believe Wing's claim. Misder's towniness follows from the fact that scum are going to kill town, and Wing protected the town person they were going to kill.

[crazypianist1116]

@zmuffinman:
We are at Mylo if Wing is doc. All scum have to do is kill wing during the night as he cannot protect himself. Zorblag basically summed up my stance pretty well. Yes I'll agree that it's a possibility, which is what you were trying to argue, just an extremely unlikely possibility.

@[L]
By PoE I think Zorblag and zmuffinman are scum as I have a town read on you. Your reads?

[crazypianist1116]

So what I'm going to do here is respond to zmuffinman's case on me before I start giving my cases for [L], zmuffinman, and WingDamage9001.
Post 315 is filled with blatant misrepresentations.

His opening paragraph is horrible. He says I voted for Prosaurus and then switched to cjdrum for little reason after seeing Prosaurus as newb and then further goes on to say that I was calling Prosaurus scum in the post where I voted cjdrum. This is completely ignoring cjdrum's posts. Cjdrum bandwagonned SO heavily. I originally thought the switch from Misder to Romanus was newb rather than scum (see post 112), but this changed after post 121. I explicitly said in 112 what Romanus was calling him out for and she refused to read. Further others had called her scummy. He was completely ignoring all of this. This looked more like newbscum rather than newbtown to me. As for the reason for suspecting a power claim, that's just what soft claims are, subtle. If he was going to cite later after claiming that 128 was his hint after claiming, then I wouldn't have bought it at all. At the end of day 1, I was trying to get cjdrum to actually accomplish something, rather than just giving unfounded accusations.

Post-lynch, he gets pretty defensive when accused of not scumhunting.

That's because it was a blatant lie.

The paragraph about day 2:

Day two, I was very wary of what crazypianist was saying about Prosaurus. His "read" on Prosaurus went back to "scummy" from "newb" for no real reason

HMMMMMMM WHAT DID PROSAURUS DO AT THE END OF DAY 1? OH THAT'S RIGHT! HE HAMMERED CJDRUM! Further if you go back and compare his hammer to the game in which he was hammered by Zorblag, it looked really really canned. I then went back to thinking newbscum rather than newbtown.

If you want to criticize me about attacking wing's hammer, go back and read wing day 2. Maybe you'll see why I said such things. He posted 5 times with barely any content whatsoever. His last post he comes in to hammer Prosaurus with only a short remark. Looks like bandwagonning to the extreme.

Horrible case is horrible.

[crazypianist1116]

I'm getting there. I'll post later tonight.

[crazypianist1116]

Hey guys. I'm sorry I didn't get this out earlier. Fell asleep while typing it up >_>

cjdrum was bandwagoning, you thought Prosaurus was newb not scummy, so the reason you switched from Prosaurus was purely because cjdrum bandwagoned. Now considering the IC was advocating bandwagoning as a good thing and cjdrum was obviously not an experienced player, how could you even seriously fault that?

You claim you got a newbscum read off cjdrum but Prosaurus as newb(town) and scummy, just not newbscum?

There's a big difference between jumping on a bandwagon for no purpose and actually looking like you support what you're voting for.

He didn't even remotely softclaim. You took his post out of context.

I saw no reason for a vt to make such a quote.

That's because it was a blatant lie.

I don't see how you can call it a blatant lie, when in Misder's opinion, you weren't scumhunting...

Great and I can say gravity doesn't exist.

HMMMMMMM WHAT DID PROSAURUS DO AT THE END OF DAY 1? OH THAT'S RIGHT! HE HAMMERED CJDRUM! Further if you go back and compare his hammer to the game in which he was hammered by Zorblag, it looked really really canned. I then went back to thinking newbscum rather than newbtown.

Yeah, but he hammered after a claim, and obviously felt cjdrum was scummy enough to hammer. I don't see how hammering at an appropriate time (even if early) changes someone from newb town to newb scum... He was hammering someone who claimed vanilla, even if he got his read wrong, it wasn't a bad hammer.

Considering he expressed his intent to hammer after a claim, you had the option of unvoting if you didn't want the lynch to go through, but you chose not to.

Misrep misrep. I never said I didn't support the lynch. I said that Prosaurus' hammer looked so insincere. At the end of the day I was trying to get cjdrum to do actual scumhunting but it wasn't happening.

If you want to criticize me about attacking wing's hammer, go back and read wing day 2. Maybe you'll see why I said such things. He posted 5 times with barely any content whatsoever. His last post he comes in to hammer Prosaurus with only a short remark. Looks like bandwagonning to the extreme.

No, it looks like you were trying to make an easy target of him. Thinking about it from a logical perspective, he was either really bad scum or really confident town. To be honest, it's a play I'd expect from a doctor because it would pretty much guarantee scum don't want to night kill him, just because it makes him an easy target and I don't doubt you'd be calling for his lynch if he hadn't claimed doctor.

So you're saying I shouldn't have criticized him because I thought he was really bad scum?

Horrible case is horrible.

As it is, your case on me is simply that I have suggested that the night activities weren't necessarily as black and white as a doctor blocking a night kill. And you supposedly have a town read on L. Strong case.

You can't really criticise bandwagoning when the whole game has been you looking for easy lynches, today being no exception. Maybe if you accuse me of using WIFOM some more, your case might be stronger.

That's funny, because as far as I was concerned, I've been defending myself.

---

Rereading zMuffinMan is iso, I see a few interesting things. Day 1 was mainly just tunneling Romanus. While a few people jumped on to this wagon, he continued staying on throughout the day. I would have liked to see some opinions of other people. There was no comment while the cjdrum wagon happened.
Day two was completely attacking Prosaurus. I don't think this is as scummy as above given the length of day two (hell, I even did it too). I do however find the fact that he completely dropped the suspicion of Romanus a bit shady. Then again,

Romanus was my top suspect yesterday, but you have been setting off way too many alarms since the hammer.

However this statement contradicts the fact above that he was trying to defend Pro's hammer.

I can give my opinion of day three but I think most of it is already there. I just don't see why he wouldn't be pushing for a no lynch if he doesn't believe the claim. We could "verify" the claim, or at least the stance of another player and thus have a better chance at hitting scum.

I'll write up a few other things later as I have class in 10 minutes. I'm really sorry I didn't get this up last night.

[crazypianist1116]

Pressure isn't a reason to vote in and of itself. If someone gets brought to L-1 during RVS, by cjdrum's argument there's a lot of pressure on that person. However, because it's RVS, there's no reason to actually acknowledge the votes as pressure since they had no valid reasoning.

For the Misder argument, while yes I agree there's a difference between opinion and fact, there are also opinions that are wrong. If you want to argue that Misder was valid in stating his opinion you can, but the way I see it he was either confused on the definition of scumhunting, or not reading what I was saying. Further if you look at post 202, then you'll see that he ignored my question of clarifying his statement.

Re: Prosaurus' Hammer. I was calling the post where he hammered cjdrum insincere. It looked out of place. See my argument above.

I also think you made a point of criticising him to set him up for a lynch today.

And that's exactly why I was advocating a no lynch at the beginning of today!

I was calling you and Zorblag a scum pair by process of elimination. I saw [L] as the most pro-town person here. As I think that wing and misder are town, that leaves you and zorblag as the two remaining candidates. This doesn't require me to make a case on you but rather for me to make a case for [L]'s towniness. Yes I still have to make such a point.

I'm not following what you're accusing me of here. I didn't state my opinion on the hammer at all, I just said that since the hammer (i.e. the content of the post in which he hammered that I mentioned I wanted an explanation for, and his posts during twilight, as well as his posts on day two) he was setting off alarms. The hammer itself didn't tell me anything, really, whereas the hammer itself seems to be the sole reason you voted Prosaurus day two.

Ok I'll give you the point that I read your quote incorrectly. But that doesn't take back the fact that you ignored Romanus all of day two. Nor does it take back that what I said about Prosaurus on day 1 changed from newb to scum read after the hammer. The hammer was not the sole reason for voting Prosaurus.

Re: No lynch. You seem to adamantly believe that the situations stated above are a somewhat likely possibility. As a result, just by choosing randomly, we have a one in three chance of nailing scum. If we no lynch, one person gets their role revealed at night and then we have a two in five chance of nailing scum.

I'm a bit concerned at [L]'s unvote. She doesn't explain what it was about our argument that caused the unvote, and now it looks like she's fencesitting and waiting for other people to vote me or zmuffin so she can ride down the majority into a lynch. Further the lack of defense against post 318 is a bit suspicious. If our argument is relevant to who she thinks is scum, then she needs to state that and why.

[crazypianist1116]

Care to elaborate? While no one really suspects you, your vote still counts as we're in MyLo.

[crazypianist1116]

VOTE: Zorblag
I'm really not seeing zmuffinman as scummy anymore. He defends his posts extremely well, and if he's scum, he's playing really well for a first game. Zorblag on the other hand has been posting a ton of theory, and has been asking other people to make cases for each other while going under the radar himself. One could argue that he's posting theory merely for the fact that he's the IC. There's still the fact however, that his stances aren't that well supported. I'm willing to bet he took the stance against zmuffin merely because both wingdamage and I looked as if we had scum reads on zmuffin around post 285.
Yes I know this is a sudden change of stance, but I've been really mulling this over for the past 2 days or so, and I feel like I'm right.
There's no need to worry about a quicklynch yet as there needs to be 4 votes for a lynch.

Zorblag, could you explain this better? Preferably with examples rather than broad statements.

Right, so looking through zMuffinMan's posts I find it particularly fascinating that neither crazypianist1116 nor [L] had anything to say about his take on Romanus's actions. It's not like there wasn't anything to say there and it went largely un-commented about. As far as the play itself goes there's a reluctance to change votes in the early game that I find more common in scum trying to seem consistent with their actions than I do town trying to figure out who's scum in a game. We've also got the same argument that Prosaurus is probably scum because he seemed certain of something that I'm seeing used against crazypianist1116 now; I think that in both cases he's taking statements and applying too much certainty without use of context; I don't think that either one was meant as an absolute but that's how they're being taken as far as I can tell.

zmuffinman, if you want responses to questions in your post above, I'll give them, but I'm also willing to drop the argument if you are.

[crazypianist1116]

Bueller? Bueller?

[crazypianist1116]

It is possible actually (unless you consider scum power roles as well). See the first few posts for info.

[crazypianist1116]

@[L]
F11
Will answer questions later.

[crazypianist1116]

Sup, Thor?

Final Vote Count of Day One:

cjdrum

- 5 (

McGriddle

,

Romanus

, crazypianist1116,

WingDamage9001

,

Prosaurus

) [this was lynch]

Romanus

- 3 (zMuffinMan,

cjdrum

,

Misder

)

Misder

- 1 ([L])

Here's the hammer day 1. Wingy fled the Romanus wagon and Misder crawled onto Romanus. L is functionally abstaining from voting, crazy is a high suspect because the chances of the wagon Day 1 having zero scum on it? Almost never happens. This is, at its heart and core, the crazy case (see how I did that in one sentence without having to try to justify how every post he's ever made is scummy? Exciting.

Oh hey look, your slot was on that lynch as well and isn't green/blue!

You seem to be criticizing me a whole lot for being scum as for who I voted, not why I voted. I get a bit of it here:

crazy has some interesting shifts in vote position around the cjdrum lynch, I'm wanting to see if it's him or Prosaurus who ends up hammering.

It'd be nice if you could explain this more; I don't really get what your saying at all.

Followed up by this:

crazy leaping on Pro is internally consistent.

So I'm not contradicting myself. That's great.

1. We didn't agree with how Romanus played the game.
2. Zorblag, who is the IC, one of the agreed upon better players on the site, and has more experience than all of us combined, "took control" of the game when he replaced in.

My case for Zorblag did not include 1 at all. As for 2, you know appeal to authority is always great, right? You can go back and read my case for Zorblag. The only way he "took control" was by asking for a massclaim, which meta supports he would have done if he was scum or town. Then he spouts tons of theory as well as unsupported reads.

I find it interesting that you think I'm advocating a no lynch.

Thor would have voted me if he was so sure of his scum read on me but he's waiting for town to flipflop with their votes so that he and his partner can go for the quicklynch. His general cockiness before having read the whole thread is awfully disconcerting as well.

I know there are other questions that need to be answered but this case needed to be attended to. Thor's spewing shit. More votes please.

Sorry for getting prodded, I probably got about 3 prods in the past 24 hours as a result of me sleeping through practically the entire day.

[crazypianist1116]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to

Request Replacement

.
I'm just taking on too much stuff and something's gotta give.

[crazypianist1116]

Hey guys, figured I'd come in here to share thoughts. Firstly, I'm deeply sorry to Ant, I should have never left him in such a horrible position. I would have avoided replacing out if I could, but I wasn't in the position to play an aggressive endgame with real life constraints taking up a lot of time.

Congrats to scum. Town could use a bit of help (myself included). Honestly guys, don't cut off days so quickly like that (Prosaurus/wing). Wing you need more depth in your posts. I feel like you made quite a few gut decisions (although I could be wrong). Also, just because you claimed doc does not mean you get off the hook with regards to participating in discussion. That goes to Misder as well.

[L], I didn't really suspect you till late D3 and I suppose you got lucky that I tunneled Zorb/Thor.

Hope to see you guys in later games!