Newbie 1074(Game Over|Scum Win!!!)

[drewoftherushes]

Hello all! I have significant RL experience at this, and I've played a few games on other forums (mostly much bigger). And I'm not voting until I think someone is scummy.

Are deadlines usually so long around here? Or is that just a newbie game thing? And how many games would an experienced user be playing at once?

[drewoftherushes]

Glove - to be "almost certain" of something on just the 40th post of a game is pretty incredible. Was hoppster lynched as quiet scum when you played together?

But Pine's verbosity and feigned expertise feels almost as scummy - sounds like scum trying to take advantage of newbies seeking guidance, especially so early on.

[drewoftherushes]

@Pine - You basically just said, "It would be crazy of scum to be as vocal as I'm being, so I must not be scum." You haven't even had serious heat, but you're already setting up your lynch defenses. I don't buy it.

VOTE: Vote Pine

[drewoftherushes]

@Pine - The "I must not be scum" part of my paraphrase was between-the-lines, but not subtle enough that everyone can't tell it's there. No, you never explicitly said it, but the implication was unmistakable.

I don't mind your playing style, but I will say that if you are town, you should tone it down because you're drawing suspicion from almost everyone, whether or not you ought to be in your opinion. We need the town to stay alive.

[drewoftherushes]

And, since we're alluding to the wiki all over the place, here's a quote that might be useful:

"Be concise; it dramatically increases the chance of people reading your posts or caring what they say."

[drewoftherushes]

Sorry, I was tired. I will explain more now.
Examples of Mafia-aligned terminology and activity is the following:
- Using too proper grammar or no proper grammar at all.
-

SPOUTING NONSENSE.

What I originally thought Silver meant by this was that someone who pays particular attention to the way they say everything is trying too hard and that effort might be construed as scummy. I don't think it's a bad philosophy (trying too hard to look normal is scummy), but I totally disagree with this being a reliable way to tell who is mafia. Some people just plain write well - I write more in-line with textbook grammar because I'm a writer. Some people get their meaning across and pay no attention to those rules. Neither method is right or wrong, correct or incorrect, scum or town.

What's more telling is how Silver has inelegantly defended this statement. I'm not convinced it's a scumtell, though, just someone being daft.

[drewoftherushes]

Pine's crazy gambitting and overly aggressive demeanor paints him as town.

Silver, do you realize that you can simply unvote instead of voting No Lynch? Voting No Lynch is a vote for their to be no lynch during the day, Unvoting simply removes your vote from whoever you were voting before, and places it in a neutral zone that won't contribute to any lynch.

Vote: Hazard

Why the Hazard vote? Why does Pine's gambitting paint him as town?

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: Silver

Silver's just digging that hole deeper and deeper with recent comments. If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

[drewoftherushes]

It just occurred to me that this throws Drew's vote into the harsh light of suspicion, as at least some of the players in the game seemed to have thought Silver was at L-1, and Drew's vote would have been the ridiculously-early-hammer in that case.

What do you have to say for yourself, Drew?

In response to this and to Des: I knew I wasn't putting the hammer on Silver. TBH, I didn't realize I was putting him at L-1, either - I should have counted votes beforehand. I thought I was the 4th. But if voting for Silver is scummy, we have a lot of scum on our hands. Silver hasn't had a good answer for any of the questions we've put on him, except the voting "No Lynch" thing. I buy his explanation for that. Remember, too, that I defended Silver (to an extent) during the silly grammar debate.

@Des - I was telling Silver to start saying reasonable things and answering questions clearly and honestly if he is indeed town, because we want town to survive possible bandwagon lynches.

I hope that clears things up.

[drewoftherushes]

I'm sorry I got the numbers wrong there. I thought I was 3rd. Five to lynch. My mistake.

[drewoftherushes]

So Silver, you want to actually respond to those points, or just advance the post count?

That said, I'm reading Silver more and more as "Bad Townie" rather than "Scum." I've seen similar from inexperienced townies in games I've read.

I'm thinking the same thing, but bad townie and bad mafia often look very similar, in my experience. Still keeping an eye out.

[drewoftherushes]

You know what? Forget Des

Why forget Des?

[drewoftherushes]

Drew, on the other hand, I can make a much better case against. Look at his posts in isolation. First fluff, then puts words in my mouth, then he focuses solely on me for a while, trying to get a wagon together. When that fails, he shifts his tunnel vision onto Silver, the current easy target, and damn near got that wagon to hammer. And recently, when several people have suggested Silver is just novtown, he's redirected the conversation again towards Silver.

UNVOTE: Hazard With a Glove (Maintaining

HOS: Hazard

. Notice how he's been quiet and trying to let the accusations against him just fade away and get forgotten?)
VOTE: drewoftherushes

First, happy birthday to your mum.

I think most, if not all of my posts have been purposeful, not fluff.

The incident where I put words in my mouth was actually a situation where I think you would normally say I'm scumhunting. I said:

"@Pine - You basically just said, "It would be crazy of scum to be as vocal as I'm being, so I must not be scum." You haven't even had serious heat, but you're already setting up your lynch defenses. I don't buy it.

It's important to look at the intentions of a player's words and not just the words themselves, and I saw you setting up a defense of your own lynch before it had started to occur. I read it as you leading the town a little bit, and I saw some scumminess in that, and I wanted to point that observation out to the rest of the town.

I addressed you for three posts in rapid succession - I don't think I harped on you overly long. Again, just putting some pressure on, like any good citizen ought to, and like you're doing right now.

I was far from the only person who thought Silver was acting scummy, and I still feel that way. And I haven't been redirecting the pressure to Silver. I just asked him a real question (why he dismissed Des in the post after he said he was suspecting Des), and right before that I pointed that bad scum and bad town look alike.

I haven't made any conclusions, and I'm not trying to get any early hammers, though I made a mistake taking Silver to L-1 too soon because I wasn't counting properly, and I apologize for that.

I hope this addresses all your points.

[drewoftherushes]

That should read, "words in your mouth," not "words in my mouth."

[drewoftherushes]

I agree with Verbs in the sense that a large part of investigating someone is putting pressure on them and letting them know that if they don't defend themselves, they could be lynched. We all have one vote. If you put that pressure on three people, they know that votes will be split, and they won't really need to defend themselves. Putting pressure on one person at a time makes that person sweat and that's when you (hopefully) can see what their real goal is.

@Pine - What haven't I answered for you?

[drewoftherushes]

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

I'll address each of these points inside:

Only game I haven't caught up in, got to go, so this is going to be a quick one. I'm fairly confident drewoftherushes is scum. I've done my reading (Joe, deserata, and Pine all have a 90% chance of being town right now), and he looks like likeliest scum. And it's all based on how he's approaching the game.

What I originally thought Silver meant by this was that someone who pays particular attention to the way they say everything is trying too hard and that effort might be construed as scummy. I don't think it's a bad philosophy (trying too hard to look normal is scummy), but I totally disagree with this being a reliable way to tell who is mafia. Some people just plain write well - I write more in-line with textbook grammar because I'm a writer. Some people get their meaning across and pay no attention to those rules. Neither method is right or wrong, correct or incorrect, scum or town.

What's more telling is how Silver has inelegantly defended this statement. I'm not convinced it's a scumtell, though, just someone being daft.

This post suggests Silver-town. Next post, he votes Silver.

This post does not suggest Silver is town, it denies that Silver's grammar point was a scumtell. I think that's pretty clear. I later voted Silver because of other scummy things he'd said, to put pressure on him.

If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

After he goes on this huge rant on HOW a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment, he decides to tell silver to change the way he posts so he can survive.

My rant was not on "how a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment," it was about grammar having no effect on alignment. If you'd read the thread instead of reading me in iso, you would have seen the context. Again, this is Nacho taking ZERO evidence and trying to lead the town to an opinion.

Also, I stand by the statement that if you're town, you should not draw negative attention to yourself so that town can survive. Can you really argue with that?

I'm thinking the same thing, but bad townie and bad mafia often look very similar, in my experience. Still keeping an eye out.

This was in response to Pine calling silver bad town. He says this with his vote on Silver.

I stand by that statement as well. Does anyone disagree that bad town and bad mafia look similar on paper? I had my vote on Silver because nobody had given me a reason to change it, until now.

I will follow up on this tomorrow, but I'm pretty confident about it so don't expect it to change.

Perhaps the most telling part about this post is that Nacho never really explains why the things he's pointed out paint me as scum. Even if I was flip-flopping on my opinion of Silver, nowhere does Nacho illustrate exactly why that would make me scum. I'd like anyone to point out where they disagree with me here. I can confidently vote Nacho because he's leading town into a silly lynch with no evidence.

[drewoftherushes]

Well I think that "I'm town" is sort of a prerequisite for every post. It wouldn't make sense for me to post an accusation if I wasn't also saying, "I'm town." I don't expect any of you to presume me innocent, and I don't presume Nacho is guilty, but he just gave me some evidence that he likely is.

[drewoftherushes]

Oh, plus? Nacho makes a good case. Which turns OMGUS into OMGUS/deflecting. Or alternatively, two scum doing their damnedest to distance themselves from each other via bussing.

As I said in the post, please tell me where Nacho's case is good and where you disagree with me.

[drewoftherushes]

Drew is getting more suspicious with his posts...
I really don't understand why he would vote Nacho. Nacho seems like a sensible player.

Again, please tell me why I am suspicious. You guys are saying things without evidence.

[drewoftherushes]

Except that your case disintegrates if you're scum. A good case by a Townie should stand on it's own merits, not be an elaborate OMGUS. Which upon reexamination, I noticed that yours kind of is

Any case disintegrates if the person making it is scum, because scum don't make cases against each other (or sometimes they do to distract, I suppose). Even an OMGUS, if it has salient points inside it, is a case that stands on its own merits.

Sorry for three separate posts btw.

[drewoftherushes]

My fault, Robo, I thought it was far enough away. Won't do it again!

[drewoftherushes]

@Pine - Did you read my post above? I addressed each of Nacho's "points." I'm honestly asking because I think you must have just seen the parts outside the quotes - my case is inside the quotes, in red, which is why Robo warned me. And it's not a solid case, but you'll understand that once you actually read my post.

Again, I ask for specifics, from you or Silver, as to why you disagree with my points.

[drewoftherushes]

Thank you, Hoppster, for a a reasonable post. Some answers inside:

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

<snip>

Perhaps the most telling part about this post is that Nacho never really explains why the things he's pointed out paint me as scum. Even if I was flip-flopping on my opinion of Silver, nowhere does Nacho illustrate exactly why that would make me scum. I'd like anyone to point out where they disagree with me here. I can confidently vote Nacho because he's leading town into a silly lynch with no evidence.

How is it clearly scum trying to get Pine on his side for an unjust lynch?

Maybe the word "clearly" was hyperbolic, but I saw this Nacho being clever scum. Pine has been suspicious of me, as he's stated numerous times. Pine has also been the most active and most diligent scumhunter in this game, unlike Nacho himself (Pine is to be commended for this, btw.) Nacho sees an opportunity - he figures that if he can start a bandwagon against me, that Pine is more inclined to follow that wagon than many others, and others will follow, because Pine's eloquent and convincing.

In the first two points, Nacho is (as far as I can tell) pointing out how what you say doesn't match up with what you do. Town have no real reason for this to happen, as they should mean everything they say. What scum say, however, is largely feigned/faked, so it's possible they forget what they said, and as such contradict themselves.

I got the impression that this is what Nacho was getting at as well, but he never really comes out and says it. I refuted his point about me contradicting myself anyway, in my first response.

I am not completely sure what he's on about with his last point, I'll admit, however, generally, contradicting yourself is scummy.

While I don't think Nacho's case paints you as clear-cut scum, your reaction is very scummy to me. You have no case on Nacho. I really don't know why you're voting him. As far as I can tell, your reason for voting him simplifies down to "I'm town and he's voting me", which of course is OMGUS.

It is basically an OMGUS vote, meant to put pressure on Nacho for trying to start a case on me without solid backing. Notice that even Nacho doesn't vote for me in his post, trying to leave all his avenues open in case the rest of the town doesn't agree with him, even though he says he's 90% sure I'm scum. If you're 90% sure of something this early on, why on earth wouldn't you vote?

I agree largely with what Pine's been saying, however, I disagree that Nacho's case is a good case. I actually think drew's current explanations are completely acceptable. However, his response in general seems really, really scummy to me.

And this is straight truth here. Nacho doesn't have a good case. His best case right now is my own defense, which has admittedly been a bit fevered. The truth is that I have a weekend off of work, I've been watching tournament basketball, reading, and playing mafia, and for the first time I'm able to be very active, and so I'm sort of just getting the most out of it. I saw a post against me, it smelled like total garbage, and so I used some energy refuting it. In the course of my refutation, I started to see what Nacho was doing, and that caused a vote.

Drew is getting more suspicious with his posts...
I really don't understand why he would vote Nacho. Nacho seems like a sensible player.

Again, please tell me why I am suspicious. You guys are saying things without evidence.

Haven't you done that?

Silver's just digging that hole deeper and deeper with recent comments. If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

Yes, I have, you're right. Nobody questioned me about this. It's a little late, but I could go back and use Silver's quotes to make a case. I would, but I don't believe Silver is scum as strongly anymore. I'm asking for someone to poke holes in my reasoning.

And also, to a lesser extent, here:

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: drew

Hoppster raises good points, and I hope I addressed them inside. I'm happy to be active in this game, but I hope it isn't my activity alone that leads to people's suspicion. If I'm being suspicious in other ways, let's talk about it.

[drewoftherushes]

Okay, well I'll wait to see what everyone else thinks. Maybe someone can take an objective look to be able to tell I'm not scum. I know the first lynch is usually just a guess anyway, and you mostly hope it's scum.

[drewoftherushes]

I'm sure it's not going to work, but I'll remind people that the deadline is two weeks away - there is PLENTY of time for debate and plenty of time for new things to come to light. That's not a good excuse to vote for me.

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

Now, what makes you believe that? Please respond with two facts in mind: firstly, I made no appeal whatsoever to Pine in my posts, and secondly, that you were one of Pine's townreads before my post. Meaning that if I WERE trying to convince Pine to vote with me, then I was making no appeal to him and that I was attacking one of his townreads, as opposed to the town of his scumreads.

Making an appeal to Pine within your post would have been too obvious. Pine, even after I addressed each of his points against me, said I didn't answer them to his satisfaction. Though he listed me low, he was clearly inclined to be suspicious of and vote for me, as was proven after my reaction to your post.

This post does not suggest Silver is town, it denies that Silver's grammar point was a scumtell. I think that's pretty clear. I later voted Silver because of other scummy things he'd said, to put pressure on him.

At this point, this was the only thing you said about silver. So, the only post you had on record about him was defending him. That suggests you believed Silver was town.

You're right in the sense that I let other people make the case for me against Silver, and I didn't repeat their points when I made my vote. There was, and is, a case against Silver, and maybe I should go back now to make it.

My rant was not on "how a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment," it was about grammar having no effect on alignment. If you'd read the thread instead of reading me in iso, you would have seen the context. Again, this is Nacho taking ZERO evidence and trying to lead the town to an opinion.

Also, I stand by the statement that if you're town, you should not draw negative attention to yourself so that town can survive. Can you really argue with that?

There's a pretty strong parallel between how a person posts and grammar in a person's posts. Both can't change on command (although some players do have several different metas), and grammar in a person's post is involved in exactly how they post. I don't see any significant difference in the two that meant the difference between me misrepping you and me accurately representing you, so why do you believe the difference in phrases would be all-important in you being found as scum or town?

What do you mean "how a person posts?" That phrase is too vague to have any meaning. Grammar is a part of "how a person posts," true. But my point was that you can't tell who's scum by their grammar. Are you really saying that you can? I don't think this is just a "difference in phrases," and I don't think it's "all-important in me being found as scum or town," I was defending my comments, which I continue to defend. I really want you to answer these questions because you have me very confused with this post.

The problem with you telling silver to change the way he posts is not that it's good advice, but that it's impossible advice. As mentioned before, posting style is not something that changes immediately, so you telling him to change it NOW is naive at best.

It's not impossible advice at all. If Silver (or anyone) is town, I want them to clearly and concisely answer when people question them. That's impossible? It's not a naive thing to say.

I stand by that statement as well. Does anyone disagree that bad town and bad mafia look similar on paper? I had my vote on Silver because nobody had given me a reason to change it, until now.

The problem with that statement is that it was said while you were agreeing with Pine calling silver town. I will address this in my followup.

Is there a problem with keeping a suspicious eye on someone that I think might be town? If you really look at my posts, I'm publicly wrestling with the idea of Silver as mafia or town, and I still haven't come to a determination.

I still don't think Nacho has come up with anything solid against me. Also notice that Nacho has the chance to put the hammer down but is hesitating - he knows that I'm town, and that he's screwed tomorrow when I flip town.

If you want to put the hammer on me to end this very long day, I understand. But there is time to find someone who might actually be guilty, so don't say another vote is unproductive, Joe. It only takes five to lynch, and that can easily be reached on someone you actually find scummy. If you actually find me scummy, you're seriously mistaken.

[drewoftherushes]

Nacho, thanks for full responses. This is the reason I voted you in the first place, to see if you could actually make a compelling case with valid points. Answers inside

This post suggests Silver-town. Next post, he votes Silver.

As Hoppster previously mentioned, scum are much more likely to flipflop on their opinions since they never have any real opinions anyways. However, my larger problem with this post is how drew simply defended silver in this post instead of actually calling him town. In my experience, I've found that when town defends, they defend because they believe people are town. When scum defends, they defend because they believe they have something to gain from it. Since he votes silver in his next post, we can gather that he doesn't have that strong of a feeling that silver is scum, and thus, he's only defending because he has something to gain from it. Whether he is defending silver to recruit him to his side, or whether he was defending him because he thought he could make someone else looks bad remains to be seen. As to why his switch to silver itself is scummy, that's because it's completely unfounded. He says it is based on "silver's recent comments", but the only thing silver does inbetween drew's two posts is vote for joe. Something interesting that DOES happen, however, is an L-2 vote for silver by Verbs. This would put silver within quickhammering range if all the previous wagonees on silver were town, so it's suspicious that he decides to flip-flop on his opinion at this particular point in time.

This is the best case about me, and I've been worried about it since it happened. I put a vote on Silver to put him at L-1 without counting the previous votes, and it was a mistake. Here's the post where Silver looks most scummy, to me:

Because no one seems overly suspicious, and I can still change it.
UNVOTE: No Kill
VOTE: 1joe60
Why? Well, he always seems to counter everything I say. Although most of you are against me, he doesn't even take in consideration what I'm trying to say. Plus, he's been against me since pretty much my first post.

He's getting heat for voting "No Kill" and then he says this about Joe, which is totally unfounded and ridiculous. Then, after Joe defends himself, Silver ignores Joe multiple times, like a kid with his fingers in his ears. It's really scummy, and that's where my Silver vote came from. In combination with Silver jumping on my bandwagon like it was going out of style, and saying there's "just so much evidence," I'm more inclined to vote for him right now than you, but let's finish this discussion first and see if I even have a chance.

After he goes on this huge rant on HOW a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment, he decides to tell silver to change the way he posts so he can survive.

The whole "if you're town, we need you to survive this lynching" sounds a bit odd to me, especially compared to his later posting where he calls the D1 lynch only a little better than a random lynching. With that in mind, it seems more like an effort to sound townie than natural posting. His command to silver to stop drawing negative attention is also scummy because it's impossible. Acting like you're giving someone a way out of the lynch without actually doing so is a nice way to cover yourself when your suspect flips town, and that's exactly what drew is doing in this situation.

First, I don't think those two statements are mutually exclusive, and I believe both of them. If you're town, act reasonable, and D1 lynch is the most difficult lynch for town.

Again, it is NOT IMPOSSIBLE to answer questions clearly when they're posed to you and not ignore someone else's accusations against you. You really think that's impossible? I wasn't covering my tracks, I think that's a pretty complicated scheme for this early in the game.

This was in response to Pine calling silver bad town. He says this with his vote on Silver.

I don't like this because he's agreeing with Pine calling silver town while still pushing his lynch. As I mentioned earlier, agreeing with someone is a great way to get on their good side, and the fact that drew continues to push silver's lynch immediately after agreeing that silver was town shows that he doesn't truly agree with Pine. And the only other reasons I can think of for saying you agree with someone when you really don't all point to scum.

Here's the quote in question:

So Silver, you want to actually respond to those points, or just advance the post count?

That said, I'm reading Silver more and more as "Bad Townie" rather than "Scum." I've seen similar from inexperienced townies in games I've read.

I'm thinking the same thing, but bad townie and bad mafia often look very similar, in my experience. Still keeping an eye out.

I agreed with Pine that Silver was looking like a bad player, but disagreeing that he looked like bad town, I thought he might look like bad mafia instead. You misunderstood me in this quote, thinking I was just straight agreeing that Silver was town, while voting for him.

What do you mean "how a person posts?" That phrase is too vague to have any meaning. Grammar is a part of "how a person posts," true. But my point was that you can't tell who's scum by their grammar. Are you really saying that you can? I don't think this is just a "difference in phrases," and I don't think it's "all-important in me being found as scum or town," I was defending my comments, which I continue to defend. I really want you to answer these questions because you have me very confused with this post.

I'll answer your questions once you answer mine.

You really need to answer this. Do you think someone's grammar alone can tell you whether they're scum?

It's not impossible advice at all. If Silver (or anyone) is town, I want them to clearly and concisely answer when people question them. That's impossible? It's not a naive thing to say.

It's impossible advice because it is impossible for Silver to change his posting style so quickly. If I told you to stop pinging my scumdar, would you be able to do so immediately?

I've addressed this above. It is not impossible to start answering questions clearly and to stop ignoring when people question you.

Is there a problem with keeping a suspicious eye on someone that I think might be town? If you really look at my posts, I'm publicly wrestling with the idea of Silver as mafia or town, and I still haven't come to a determination.

You were agreeing that he was town, not thinking that he might be town. You shouldn't be publicly wresting with the idea of someone as mafia if you are agreeing with someone that they're town.

Addressed above, I was not agreeing he was town. You're mistaken here, and I think looking at my post closely proves it.

Now that Nacho has fully explained himself, I think it's clear that he thought I was agreeing with Pine that Silver was town, while I was voting for Pine, and that's simply not the case, as I illustrated above.

[drewoftherushes]

I still don't think Nacho has come up with anything solid against me. Also notice that Nacho has the chance to put the hammer down but is hesitating - he knows that I'm town, and that he's screwed tomorrow when I flip town.

This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Are you suggesting that it would be more pro-town of me to throw the hammer down on you without a claim OR a defense?

No, it would have been scummy to put the hammer on me, but since I thought you were scum, it was a bit of a trap.

[drewoftherushes]

So that we can stop the giant quote blocks, here are my main arguments/questions:

1) Nacho misunderstood my post, thinking I was saying Silver is town with my vote on him. This just wasn't the case. It would have been more clear if I had phrased myself differently.
2) I don't think grammar alone is an indicator of alignment. Do you, Nacho?
3) When I said Silver should start acting Town, Nacho thinks it's impossible to change the way you play, which I disagree with. My statement pinged both Nacho and Des, however, so something about it must have sounded scummy. I'm not sure why, but there it is.

Am I missing anything?

[drewoftherushes]

I'm really used to 48-hour days...
Also, Drew, Verbs, and Joe are starting to act odd again...

Would you point out how me, Verbs and Joe are acting odd, Silver?

@Hoppster - Not really. He had a very good chance to hammer me and didn't do it. I think he could have done it and still survived a lynch the next day, but he didn't. I don't really have a place to move my vote right now, but I will when the chance comes up.

UNVOTE: Nachomamma

[drewoftherushes]

Hazard seems wildly non-chalant about all the suspicion being thrown on him, and I don't really know how to read that. I'm not going to make the mistake of voting without counting again, so it looks like there are two votes on Hazard, right?

VOTE: Hazard

L-2 should put more pressure on him to talk. What do you think about this game, dude? Who looks scummy? Who doesn't?

[drewoftherushes]

Good point everyone has... also putting Hazard at L-1.
VOTE: Hazard With a Glove
I probably would've changed votes earlier if I wasn't at school so don't ask!

I hope people can see that I put Hazard at L-2 to see if someone would put him at L-1, and Silver very clearly jumped on that opportunity. In my opinion, an L-2 vote says, "start explaining yourself or else," and an L-1 vote says, "Somebody finish this off for me." Major FOS at Silver for falling into this trap.

Also, Silver, saying people are "scummy" or "questionable" or "weird" is pointless unless you cite the posts that give you those feelings and say exactly why those posts can be read as "questionable." That post where you list everyone and say what you think is meaningless without evidence, something I've been saying to you for a couple of pages now.

UNVOTE: Hazard

To be honest I don't know what to think of someone who barely posts. I'm reluctant to lynch, but I'd rather lynch an inactive than an active player.

[drewoftherushes]

Some responses inside:

He's been shown to be inconsistent with Silver, not to mention his accidental almost-hammering. On a reread of his posts alone, he also started by touting his experience at the game, and how he only votes when he thinks someone is scummy, yet his first vote, Pine, was based on really flimsy evidence. In his Silver vote, he's still pointing at Pine:

Why the Hazard vote? Why does Pine's gambitting paint him as town?

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: Silver

Silver's just digging that hole deeper and deeper with recent comments. If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

I have posted about Silver a lot, I'll admit, but almost everything he says raises red flags in my head. It's been hard not to focus on him. As I talked with Nacho about, I haven't really wavered in my suspicion of Silver. There was the grammar issue when I tried to figure out/clarify what Silver was trying to say, and there was the issue where I agreed with Pine that Silver wasn't playing well but that that could mean town or mafia.

I felt some pressure to vote after someone saying not voting was scummy, so I voted for Pine. My experience is almost exclusively with RL mafia, and in my version you mostly vote at the end, after the debate. Just learning.

I also don't know why you think I was pointing the finger at Pine in my quote above. I was questioning Nacho, who made a statement I wanted him to clarify.

Then while still keeping his vote, he takes an opportunity to throw suspicion my way and see if it sticks.

You know what? Forget Des

Why forget Des?

Which is okay - I am willing to be examined (even if maybe I was too oversensitive to Pine's style at the beginning), but seeing there was no followup, this suggests that he's just trying to cast as wide a net of doubt as possible. At the same time, he just *happens* to have thrown suspicion over another useful player (Nacho.) He has finally come around to voting hazard, and I really want to hear from Hazard before drew is lynched. We have two more weeks.

Again, I wasn't trying to cast suspicion on you, I was questioning Silver (again) for a post with no explanation. He still hasn't explained why he randomly just dropped you from his list of suspects. I think you miscomprehended those two questions you've quoted.

But now Silver is back! I honestly don't see what you are doing with your vote. You started out super cautious, and now you are voting for hazard just because? Your posts are pretty meaningless, it's really hard to follow your reasoning. I would expect an L-1 vote to at least explain why you are voting, and what you would like to see in order for you to change your vote.

I know our gracious mod human is otherwise engaged, but I'd like a vote count.

[drewoftherushes]

I'll be out of commission today and half of tomorrow.

[drewoftherushes]

Just reading up and checking back in. I got hit by an uninsured drunk driver Saturday night and have been sorting all that out since then. But everyone's uninjured and everything is sorted, so sorry for the absence!

Are we still doing this Hazard thing? Wow time between posts has been super long. Okay, I'll end this:

VOTE: Hazard

That should do it, right?

[drewoftherushes]

I understand the vote for me because I was the only person ever really suspicious of Nacho, but I did back off that after he failed to hammer me. The majority of my suspicion is still with Silver, for reasons already stated. So,

VOTE: Silver

[drewoftherushes]

Gloating? Oh yeah I see. That's actually a really good point, major FOS.

[drewoftherushes]

Dude, if someone makes a good point, you're allowed to agree with them, chill out, man.

[drewoftherushes]

Just cleaning up more messes

[drewoftherushes]

So I got to thinking, where did the Hazard suspicion begin, anyway? I know I was suspicious of him at the end for lurking and making creepy lurker comments, and I remember that a lot of people seemed suspicious of him before those comments. So I went back to take a look at what really happened, and I think I might have found some interesting things. Nothing concrete, but I thought it would be helpful to put some of this stuff together in one place.

I'm putting all this in spoiler brackets because it's super long.

Spoiler:

So I think the first comment Hazard made that started to raise suspicions was this, directed at Pine:

@Pine
So you expect us to just get out of the way and play a game of Follow the Leader with you?

Pine takes particular umbrage to this accusation:

@Pine
So you expect us to just get out of the way and play a game of Follow the Leader with you?

Umm, no. Precisely the opposite, in fact. I have repeatedly stressed the importance of every player conducting their own investigations, draw their own conclusions, and

think for themselves

. Put words in my mouth at your own peril, because it is damn close to lying and misrepresentation. And as you seem somewhat experienced, I do not think I need to remind you what common wisdom suggests we do to people who do that:
Lynch All Liars

This was a gross alteration of what I'd said, and indeed entirely contrary to the point I have now repeatedly made regarding the necessity of people thinking for themselves.

Pine was suspicious of Hazard because Hazard didn't like the way Pine was playing. Pine accused Hazard of lying, as a matter of fact. I think Pine's reaction was a little bit over the top for a comment that didn't seem particularly damning to me - early in the game, Hazard was putting some pressure on Pine. Pine sort of freaked. Particularly given that we now know Hazard was town and his accusations weren't a deliberately "gross alteration" of Pine's play to that point, but an observation and accusation, it really looks like Pine's reaction was off base.

However, at this point, nobody really jumps on the Hazard bandwagon. Pine still includes Hazard at the top of his list of people he finds scummy, just for that one post, as far as I can tell.

Some more things happen. Pine tries to start a case against me, Hoppster hops on board, and then I defend myself. Hoppster would later say that he "wasn't sure" why he thought I was scummy in the first place, while Pine says I didn't answer his accusation "convincingly."

Next, Joe puts Verbs under some fire (Verbs was tunneling on Silver a bit, which wasn't scummy to me at all because Silver was ignoring the questions Verbs asked him). Then Pine jumps on the bandwagon. Here are two consecutive posts:

So at this point I think it's fairly obvious that Silver doesn't really know what he's talking about, yet nearly all of Verbs posts have been about Silver. He seems to be tunnel-visioning Silver and I find this a tad suspicious as Silver really is the easy lynch right now.

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Verbs

We all know that Silver won't give a decent reply to your posts so why continue to attack him? You said yourself that you dislike players that do not attempt to scumhunt yet so far you've only really posted about Silver, I wouldn't exactly call that scumhunting.

I usually hate doing something like this without providing my own, independent reasoning, but Joe makes a great point. Plus, Verbs has survived without getting a good, hard look yet. My suspicions against Hazard and Drew remain, neither of whom have answered the allegations made to my satisfaction as yet, but we've gotta look at everyone and not fall prey to tunnel vision ourselves.

UNVOTE: drewoftherushes
VOTE: Verbs

My bandwagon doesn't get any steam, and then Pine jumps right on the next one.

After this, Nacho makes his post saying he's sure I'm scum, and I defend myself, and OMGUS in the process. I admit now that voting Nacho wasn't the best idea, and I came under a lot of fire for that, understandably. But some interesting things happened because of it. First, Nacho basically agreed that his case was based on a misconception, but that he still found me a little scummy (probably for my overreaction). Pine, however, first tries to say that Nacho makes a "good case" (a point even Nacho later disagrees with), and jumps on my bandwagon. I get to L-2 thanks to Silver also jumping on the bandwagon because there's "just so much evidence" (which was very fishy, and could be the focus of another case). Hazard votes Silver specifically for that comment.

Joe and Pine both seem to think that the day needs to end, even though it's 13 days until the deadline:

At this point, I think we've run the Day One well dry. I'm ready to end this.

UNVOTE: Verbs (Still suspicious, will be suspect 1 or 2 on D2)
VOTE: drewoftherushes

Pine also tries to get Nacho to hammer me here:

Who's for the hammer? Nacho, I think the honor is yours. Plus, if you

are

pro-Town, it would be a good show of faith to put yourself on the line like that, knowing you'll be suspect número uno if Drew flips Town.

Eventually, Nacho unvotes me, and it looks like I'm not about to be hammered. Pine says he's ready to end this day, though. Then the Hazard bandwagon begins. Here are two more consecutive posts:

Alright, so I've been deliberately delaying my response to Drew's case, just so I could get some input from desi, Verbs, or Hazard before putting anymore of my own in. But, it seems that I was naive in thinking that they would show up within a reasonable time frame, so I'll give my response now:

I still think that Drew's scum. However, I do see that my main point was mostly based off of a misconception I had of one of Drew's posts, meaning that he isn't quite as scummy as I thought he was. And, in my opinion, it's never a good idea to lynch one of the more active players when the game starts to stall, so I'm willing to back off of him for now and reanalyze his play in a few days or so. In the meantime, I'm sick of these lurkers.

Vote: Hazard With A Glove

What set me off in respect to Hazard was his latest post, #178, where he responds to Pine's post an hour later (showing that he checks the forum regularly), votes Silver (deliberately ignoring the forming wagon on Drew), and disappears for another two days.

Heh. In what flavor would you like your sucking up, Robo? Subtle flattery or straight-up boorishness?

As alluded to in 201, I'm willing to go after any of my top scum reads if there's support for it. And my number one scum read, of course, gets priority.

VOTE: Hazard With a Glove

Show yourself and answer for your lurking, Scum.

Joe had stated earlier that he wanted to "start a Hazard wagon," though he didn't put his vote on Hazard at that time. Now Nacho puts a vote on Hazard and Pine jumps right on board. Nacho was suspicous of Hazard for his Silver vote. I don't think it was fair to be suspicious of Hazard for that vote, because Silver jumped on my bandwagon without much evidence and was scummy about it. But Pine quickly agrees with Nacho as he sees the potential for a Hazard lynch beginning.

Next, I vote Hazard to put some more pressure on him because he won't talk, and to see if someone would put him at L-1 (which would be scummy). Then Silver follows my post by putting Hazard at L-1. Pine accuses me of scum-bussing for putting Hazard at L-2, but after I remove my vote, Pine puts Hazard at L-2. Pine's words don't match his actions here.

Hazard is put to L-1 by Des. Pine says we should lynch Hazard if we don't hear from him in 24 hours. Hazard chimes in, sounds like he's very busy, and tries to make a case against Silver. Pine dismissed it, saying the case is "confusing and arguably weak." This is the second time in the game Pine has dismissed an attempt to case Silver. The first was when he said Silver was likely "bad town" rather than mafia. (I said bad town and bad mafia often look alike.)

At this point, Hazard pretty much lynches himself with his inaction. There wasn't much of a case against him, but he ignored and deflected what there was. I think we were all frustrated with the last few days of the first day.

Then I hammered Hazard, which wasn't the best move. I should have waited for kr0b to come, but I didn't Not sure if it would have changed anything. I should have really looked at the case against Hazard before I hammered, until just now, but I didn't.

So I know it looks like I'm building a case against Pine, but I didn't start out that way. I thought that Nacho had started the Hazard suspicion, but when I went back I found that it was Pine. I will say this about Pine, he has repeated over and over that his style is to be paranoid and examine everything someone says very closely. The paranoia definitely rings true - you can't even agree with Pine without him thinking you're scum for it. But the two cases where his paranoia draws to a short stop are both instances when Silver comes under some fire. Then he halts the discussion, to an extent.

I suspect a Pine/Silver team. I don't think this case is foolproof by any means, but it's intended as a way to start discussion back up again, because we've been short on real examination for a while. I think everyone really needs to chime in so we can hear what they think about this situation, but for right now, I'm going to VOTE: Pine.

[drewoftherushes]

Crap, I messed that up. I pressed the wrong spoiler button in the first post (#300). But then I did it right in #301. Robo, could you delete that first post? If not I understand, but I was just trying not to make too much clutter but I messed it up.

Done. And I also meant to post in this post here when I said this but accidentally hit the other post. I didn't change any content.

[drewoftherushes]

@Silver - Most of my suspicion of you is based on you bandwagoning on my lynch and on the Hazard lynch, and Pine's defense of you.

@Des - FOS means "finger of suspicion." I said major FOS at you because, typically, when someone says something about the nightkill, it looks scummy. I actually think it can be a pretty good tell. But your reaction here sort of dissuades me, and I'm even more dissuaded after rereading the whole game.

I can't think of any other time Pine has been gone for more than an hour when people were talking to him. He checks regularly. I think his silence is incriminating right now. But that also might not mean much because everyone has a life.

[drewoftherushes]

@ Hoppster - So are you saying that Pine reacted too emotionally to Hazard's comment, but it wasn't scummy? I thought of that, too, but I don't think even Pine would say that. I think I made a few other points in there, though, about Pine defending Silver, and about Pine trying to form several bandwagons before the one on Hazard worked. What do you think about that? I agree that this case might be misdirected, but nobody's said anything yet (including you) that I think refutes any or all of it. Willing to listen.

[drewoftherushes]

Thanks for the response, Pine, I have some things to say about it, but they might have to wait until tomorrow. Date night tonight. But I'll get to them sooner rather than later.

[drewoftherushes]

I didn't "freak." And I really do take umbrage to people misrepresenting, attempting to discredit, and especially misquoting me. So yeah, I did a bit of a hatchet job on Hazard. Oh, and by the way? The way Hazard characterized things WAS a gross alteration of what I'd said.

Hazard did the same thing you've done - he threw out an accusation based on just a little bit of evidence to see if it would illicit a massive reaction. It was for this that you kept him at the top of your scum list for three weeks. We all (myself included) based the lynch at least a little bit on the fact that you kept him at the top of your list for this.

Poorly.

Like, eight pages later and you have yet to tell me why my response to that initial accusation wasn't adequate. And here you are again, trying to convince people that I never had a good defense, without saying why. This is another instance of what happened above - repeat something enough times and people start to forget the source of the opinion. I'm embarrassed to have been swayed by your conviction in the instance of Hazard.

Joe made a good case, and I'm fairly sure he was the only person voting for you at the time. One person hardly makes "the next bandwagon." Votes against someone (you in this case) when that case isn't going anywhere or producing anything (and the wagon on you wasn't at the time,) are wasted votes. Verbs looked good, and I decided added pressure would be helpful.

Explain how Joe made a good case. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Joe said I was focusing on Silver, but I had only made two or three posts about Silver, and Silver was ignoring questions directed at him and making unqualified statements. You're right that the second vote doesn't make a bandwagon, but it looks a lot better to be on the front end of a townie lynch than the back.

Going to interrupt your ramble, here. Haven't commented in a bit because everything between this and the last comment is entirely based on one thing: the fact that I am willing to lynch any of my top three reads, and will contribute to the lynch of any of those three people. I called your vote bussing because when scum votes for other scum, it's called "bussing". It turns out Hazard was Town after all, so calling your actions "bussing" falls under the "mistake" column. Voting for a Hazard wagon not only doesn't contradict my words, it matches my overall pattern.

That's a convenient rule: "I'll lynch any of my top three, a list I can change at any point with little evidence." That rule doesn't mean anything about your alignment, it's actually sort of a scummy rule. Gives you justification to lynch anyone. It's a ridiculous rule even if you're town, especially in a game with seven players left. So almost half of us are lynchable?

Anyway, it isn't your rule I was pointing out, it's how you put those people in your top three that I find scummy. Hazard in particular.

Meh, most of the rest of this is fluff. And all of it is consistent with my established pattern. I defended Silver at a couple of points because I thought he was Town. I've also defended Hoppster, who is the only person I currently think is Town (not counting myself). Personally, I think Drew assembled this largely out of desperation to discredit the guy who is going hardest for Drewscum, and he's just picked out anything even a little questionable to shovel shit.

Why did you think Silver was town? Just your gut? Doesn't that go against the "suspect everyone" mantra you've harped about?

Wow, deflect much? You answered a couple of my points (which I've since told you why I think they're unconvincing) and then you go straight for the discredit. Put the suspicion back on me for building a case against someone, and treat my case with contempt. This is why Des said you're intolerable to play with, because you treat everyone (except your buddy Hoppster) with utter contempt every time they post. I can see that that's not just your personality, but a way for you to get people on your side. Nobody likes to be ridiculed, and they think agreeing with you or avoiding you will keep that from happening.

The truth is that as much as we try to use logical deduction, this game is determined mostly by emotions (just like life, right?). It seems to me that Pine pretends to a load of logical deduction, but primarily 1) repeats his opinions until they're regarded as fact, and 2) treats other players' posts with contempt to discredit them. Unfortunately, these tactics work pretty well. We can see that right now with Des - he's freaking out a little bit, and Pine just keeps making comments to push him over the line. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next lynch because of this, even though we have a lot more evidence to use if someone will do the legwork.

[drewoftherushes]

Des, read my post above, it's obvious what Pine's doing. He's pissing you off on purpose, because your reaction makes you look scummy.

[drewoftherushes]

At least 95% of your response is pure opinion, Drew. Unless someone other than Drew or Des want a clarification, I won't be responding to it because...

So you don't talk to your accusers anymore. Good idea. 95% of everything you say is opinion, Pine, and that's what this game is about, believe it or not.

Des, read my post above, it's obvious what Pine's doing. He's pissing you off on purpose, because your reaction makes you look scummy.

So you agree that des is scummy?

There's a difference between looking scummy and being scum. Town can be made to look scummy by getting emotional and upset. Doesn't make them scum. I've seen newbies do exactly what Des is doing, getting really pissed off at his accusers, and it always looks scummy, and they usually get lynched, and they usually flip town. I'm not the most experienced, but I've played 8-10 games, and this is a common pattern.

Drew, Des, Verbs/kr0b. Two out of three is your scumteam.

At this moment, I'm inclined to say it might be Drew and Des, and that Verbs just played scummy. We'll see. Drew's defense-but-not-really of Des sounds an awful lot like scum trying to help their buddy but keep their options open and distance clear in case things go south.

Pine, Silver, Hoppster. Two out of three is your scumteam.

At this moment, I'm inclined to say Pine and Silver, and I think Hoppster is being led astray, but we all trust Hoppster because of his experience, so we're being led astray too. We'll see. Pine not addressing the accusations against him in any substantial way and trying to deflect his case against me looks pretty scummy.

Joe, kr0b, Silver, hope you're all watching this.

[drewoftherushes]

I've addressed all of the accusations against me. I just don't care to repeat myself over and over again. The post of yours that I basically gave the bird to contained no new questions, just rehashes of old ones and your conjecture of my motives.

So really, what exactly was there to respond to, aside from WIFOM traps?

Are you even reading my posts?

-Why did you keep Hazard at the top of your list for one comment you thought was misleading - what else did you think you had on Hazard to warrant him being the scummiest player in your eyes? Evidence, please.
-Still haven't told me why my defense against Joe's arguments weren't solid. Evidence, please.
-Why is your rule a good idea? Lynch your top three suspects? Has that ever worked for you? Also, try to deny that scum couldn't use that rule as justification for any vote.
-Why did you think Silver was town, and so defend him? Why weren't you suspicious of everyone like you said we ought to be? Evidence, please.

The only part of my post that was pure conjecture was how you ridicule people and treat them with contempt to bully them into agreeing with you. I don't expect you to respond to that, I was pointing it out so that when you do it again, everyone can see what's happening.

I'm not going to let you deflect and ignore the questions I'm asking anymore, scum.

[drewoftherushes]

Evidence against Hazard is intrinsically flawed at this point. Needless to say, I was far from the only person who thought him scummy. In fact, I believe well over half of the players in the thread did.

I think your defense against Joe's arguments was inadequate. What part of this wasn't crystal clear? You continuing to harp on this serves only to discredit me, which is solely self-serving.

My rule isn't, necessarily, a good idea. It's a strategy I'm working on, but it's worked so far in other games. I'll get back to you on it.

Silver has made mistakes and said things that I don't think scum would do or say. That said, I have repeatedly noted that since the pressure has lifted from him, Silver has made mistakes and said things that I DO think scum would do and say.

And almost the entirety of your post was conjecture. You were assigning fantasy reasons to my actions. Look up the definition of conjecture.

Oh, and finally, I've only ignored your questions

once

. Because they were stupid.

First of all, calling my questions stupid is coming pretty close to a personal attack, which has no place in this game. I would think with your heady vocabulary that you'd be able to come up with a more diplomatic way of saying my questions didn't deserve an answer.

Second, you're not giving us any evidence.

Show us

where, specifically, my posts against Joe's arguments wasn't adequate. Look it up, quote it. It isn't crystal clear because your opinion doesn't mean anything without the evidence to back it up. And this isn't even about Joe's original point anymore, it's about you misleading the town by making declarations

without providing evidence.

I agree, your rule isn't necessarily a good idea. Maybe think about doing some actual work instead of following the rule, "I'll lynch who I think is scummy without ever saying why."

Show us

where Silver said things you don't think scum would do or say, and

show us

where Silver since then has said things you think scum would do or say.

The last part was conjecture, I said. The rest of it was me trying to get you to clarify things you've said and done, which you still refuse to do.

Again,

show us

which questions you ignored and why they were stupid. You seem to check this regularly, but you don't seem to want to do the actual work required to validate your opinions, and I think it's because you know there is no evidence, because you're scum.

And all the way back to your first point, about Hazard. I'm not asking about Hazard "at this point," I'm asking about why you thought (past-tense) Hazard was scummy. With evidence. Why did you think he was scummy enough to put at the top of your list? Show us.

[drewoftherushes]

I provided evidence against Hazard back on Day One. That's why he got lynched. Regarding my assessment of Joe's case and your defense, it's always been an

opinion

. You're asking "where exactly do my lies fall apart?" Hard to pinpoint, but the whole defense just stinks to high heaven. The case for Silver as Town was made a like eight pages ago. I am not digging it up again for the purpose of a wild goose chase when I no longer hold all of those opinions.

Finally, when I decide to attack you personally, it will be far, far more creative than "I think your questions are stupid." Your questions were, and are, stupid and redundant. To put it succinctly.

The extent to which Pine is avoiding my questions is becoming absurd. You're really starting to look ridiculous, especially because half of the things you just said aren't true.

1) In my original case, I quoted your case against Hazard (his "misleading" the town by saying you're trying to lead the town). You never provided any other evidence. What I'm asking is, what was your other evidence? Go look: you never made any other case against Hazard. You're lying when you say you provided any other evidence against him on day one, and remember what we do to liars?

2) Joe never even made a case with evidence against me.

Here's what happened:
Joe says, "I'm voting Drew because he's focusing on Silver."
You say, "Yeah he is, I'll vote Drew too."
I say, "I'm focusing on Silver because of this and this."
You say, "Not good enough."
I say, "Why?"
You say, "Because I said so."
That is either so scum or the worst town case I've ever read.

3) The case about Silver being town was never made. Another lie. It was just you saying, "I think silver is just bad town." That's not a case. Then you ignored my second point. You think Silver is scummy right now. Why? Show us.

4) If my questions are so stupid, why have you TOTALLY FAILED to answer them? And redundant? Yeah, I'm asking you the same questions over and over, because you refuse to answer them.

This is getting silly. How many times will you try to convince me, and everyone, that my questions aren't valid? Just answer them. Oh, can't? That's because you're scum.

[drewoftherushes]

There you have it. Pine doesn't respect questions. Does anyone else think my questions are stupid and not worthy of a response? If so, lynch me.

If you don't think my questions are ridiculous, put your vote where your mouth is. Maybe some votes will get Pine to respect questions.

[drewoftherushes]

PS - I'm sorry everyone has to read this long argument and my redundant questions. I was just putting pressure on Pine to see if he can defend himself, and he can't.

[drewoftherushes]

^The questions I'm asking have not been answered. I've read this game all the way through several times in the last couple days. I want everyone to know that. Pine is lying when he says that.

[drewoftherushes]

Dude, don't try to reason with Drew. He'll just pretend he didn't hear you, and bitch about how you're ignoring him.

Who's bitching, dude? You don't like the pressure, answer some questions. Not my fault the school-boy bully doesn't like his tactics being pointed out and used against him.

[drewoftherushes]

I'm a little confused here. I'm pretty sure I voted for Verbs because he was tunnel-visioning on Silver, not Drew. My vote for Drew came later and succeeded Pine's.

Joe, I'm sorry, you're right. I got two instances of Pine's voting confused above. It's stated properly in my original case, but the last few posts I mixed them up.

First, Pine voted for me and Hoppster jumped on board, and that's when Pine said I didn't answer his accusations "convincingly," and he still hasn't told me why I didn't convince him.

Then, you voted for Verbs for focusing on Silver, and that's when Pine jumped on board your vote, and kept Verbs near the top of his infamous list for the rest of the day.

I'm sorry for mixing those two up, thanks for pointing it out. Fortunately it doesn't really change any of my points against Pine.

[drewoftherushes]

Dude, don't try to reason with Drew. He'll just pretend he didn't hear you, and bitch about how you're ignoring him.

Who's bitching, dude? You don't like the pressure, answer some questions. Not my fault the school-boy bully doesn't like his tactics being pointed out and used against him.

You've got a long way to go before you manage to emulate my tactics, Drew.

For instance, I actually scumhunt, rather than just yammering the same asked-and-answered nonsense over and over.

You did a great scumhunting job on Hazard. Will you show me another instance of you scumhunting? Seems like all you really do is mock and deride everyone.

[drewoftherushes]

Des - I missed Joe's second post. You're right though, as I said, I got those two mixed up, but it's stated properly in my original case. The first part should be Joe making a case against Verbs, not me, and the second part is Pine's reaction to my defense after Pine tried to make a case against me. So no, that doesn't make sense up there, but it characterizes both of those conversations regardless. I just lost the threads, should have doublechecked before I posted, my fault.

[drewoftherushes]

@Hoppster - I don't understand why you're so upset about what des said. After you asked him, this is what he said:

@Hoppster: I really so no reason to vote. I didn't want to be the one to hammer, I guess, but if everyone uses the same logic then no-one will ever be lynched. I thought Hazard was scummy, I didn't buy his defense, and I'm not about to start a new bandwagon to follow any other potential thoughts I might have. So the choice is between inaction, and L-1, and I'd rather be at L-1.

I took that to mean that Hazard was at L-2, and des wanted to pressure Hazard to talk, so he put him at L-1. At the same time, he was glad he wasn't the hammer. Was it smart for des to admit he was glad to not be the hammer? Probably not, because town don't mind hammering someone they think is scum. But you and des both expressed that Hazard was going to probably get lynched no matter what happened. So why are you so insistent that des wanting to put pressure on Hazard and des not wanting to be the hammer are mutually exclusive situations?

Now that I've done the work to go back and answer your question, what do you think about Pine's refusal to answer my questions? I'll quote them again if anyone needs a refresher.

@Silver - I feel strongly that Pine is mafia, and we can only lynch one person today, and I'd rather it were him than you. It doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to what you do, but I won't go and make a case right now because it would distract from the case currently in progress.

[drewoftherushes]

@Hoppster - I understand all that, but you're going to have to explain to me why it means des is scum.

[drewoftherushes]

@Hoppster - I understand all that, but you're going to have to explain to me why it means des is scum.

Des felt the need to disguise what wasn't a pressure vote as a pressure vote.

Town don't feel the need to pretend a vote is a pressure vote when they really just want a lynch. Scum are worried about being attacked and so disguise the vote if they feel it will help the vote fly under the radar.

Right, that's what I thought you meant, but here's what I'm saying: you can want a lynch and want to make a pressure vote. A vote only gives pressure because there's a threat to lynch in it. If you say, "I'm voting you to pressure you but I don't want you to get lynched," why would that person talk? It's not a threat.

I'm saying that I don't think des was "pretending" at all. He wanted to pressure, and he wanted to potentially lynch (if Hazard didn't say anything, which he didn't).

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Do Hoppster or kr0b have a vote down?

@Joe - Why do you think I'm scummy? (just asking, not accusing)

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So 2 on Des, 2 on me, one on Pine, and Des and kr0b have yet to vote. Is that right? Des you should put a vote down. On pine.

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@Des - To several of your points:

1) Me telling you to vote for Pine was a riff on Pine (in the post right before me) telling Hoppster to "switch over to the Drew train." Yet Pine doesn't get called out by anyone for saying that.

2) I was defending your motivation for the vote, which I thought was "I want to put pressure on Hazard." I felt like the way Silver jumped on the Hazard bandwagon was scummy, but you did it almost reluctantly and it didn't feel scummy. I didn't mean to imply that putting someone at L-1 is always scummy, just situationally, though I understand it doesn't look like that up there.

3) I'm glad you've read my case on Pine, reread the game yourself, and made a decision. That's all I ever asked anyone to do, and you seem to be the only person who did it, besides maybe Hoppster. I thought (and still think) I was on to something, but I expressed in there multiple times that I wasn't necessarily convinced. Unfortunately, nobody took the time to tell me why they didn't think my case was accurate, which is why I never backed off it.

4) I understand why you think I look scummy, and I think you should put a vote on it. I'm innocent, but this game has become tedious. Half the people aren't playing (it seems), and Pine is incapable of much but insults. I've never played a mafia game with this much hostility, FYI, and I realize that I became the aggressor for a while there, but I don't tolerate bullies very well, and that's what I saw Pine doing. I'll see this game through, but I won't cry when it's over.

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Thanks for the advice, Hoppster. I'll definitely check out the Open games when this is finished. I trust that the site has a pretty good vibe based on most of the people in this game. The Newbie schedule is too slow for me.

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^Case in point

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I'm bored of you, Pine. I hope you're town now just so you can lynch me and lose.

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Des lynch, obviously. We don't need to slow this game down any more. I don't think Des is scum, but at this point lynching town would be better for my sanity than a No Lynch. I won't be voting for her, though. You'll have to hope Joe or kr0b will step up.

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Ha, I can't believe you. I'm not playing this game anymore, Pine, being careful of everything I say. I gave up. Everything I said in that post is true, but you're playing so hard you have no idea how to tell when someone's just being honest.

You pretend to be so good at this, Pine, but you just have no idea what you're talking about. I thought Silver was bad town, but at least Silver doesn't post often enough to do any damage. If you're town, you're so bad at this it's hilarious. If you're scum, you might have some sort of skill.

I would relish the opportunity to be lynched based on Pine's superb scumhunting skills, as long as I can watch Pine cover his tracks when I flip innocent.

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Ninja'd - That's fine, des, let's move this lynch over to me. Then when I flip scum Pine will say I lynched myself. Well, it's sort of true, but Pine still has no clue what he's talking about.

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"flip scum" should read "flip innocent" there. Ha, now I'm dead for sure, right? Please somebody end this.

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Wouldn't that be funny

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Ha, I knew that slip would do it for me. I'm vanilla town. Now hammer.

I'll still keep an eye on this game because I'm vaguely interested to see who was scum, but right now Pine is either the worst townie in history, or pretty good scum. I know you guys won't lynch him because you're cowards, but we'll see. I am thinking Silver is scum. Just a feeling at this point. Anyway, it's been fun to play with most of you! Enjoy the rest of the game and I'm sure I'll see you around these parts later!

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Oh gosh, really? Bah!

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Wow you guys. I would have loved to say I told you so, but damn, I sure didn't (except calling the part about Pine...no hard feelings bud)

Really fucking well done to Hoppster. I actually just jumped on just to catch up, and as soon as I saw Hoppster talking in caps, I knew in my gut he was scum. But I don't think it would have mattered.

Sometimes fun game, sometimes boring, certainly unpredictable. I'll see you all around I'm sure!

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Oh and by "part about Pine" I meant that if he wasn't scum he was the town that would get us killed. Strategy could have worked out for him, just didn't this time.

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What I've been cursing all day is that I was

right

about Hoppster. That gambit was two-pronged. To see if he squirmed, and nail him, or to see if scum jumped on him. He did just about the only thing I didn't expect: recognize the trap, avoid it, and act precisely how I'd have acted as a Town PR.

Drew, i owe you an apology. I was genuinely stunned when you flipped Town.

The "Freudian slip" doomed me. I wasn't very good town, my two cases were on Nacho and you, so I can't really complain about anything. Especially after I gunned so hard for you for several pages, of course you thought I was scum.

About your style, I think you'll have various results. Some people will fire back and you'll get nowhere, some people will follow a strong voice all the way to the grave.

Hope everyone also knows that nothing was personal - sometimes I use a little (or a lot) of emotion to try to move people like des to my side. It can backfire and makes me unlikeable, unfortunately.