Newbie 1074(Game Over|Scum Win!!!)

[Nachomamma8]

Hello, I'm here and I'm alive.
Unfortunately, I'm also tired, so you'll have to wait for my input until tomorrow if you want anything worth reading.

[Nachomamma8]

Pine's crazy gambitting and overly aggressive demeanor paints him as town.

Silver, do you realize that you can simply unvote instead of voting No Lynch? Voting No Lynch is a vote for their to be no lynch during the day, Unvoting simply removes your vote from whoever you were voting before, and places it in a neutral zone that won't contribute to any lynch.

Vote: Hazard

[Nachomamma8]

What gambitting? A gambit implies that I have something to hide, or a personal agenda to advance. The only agenda I'm trying to advance is the Town's, which requires thorough and unbiased investigation that targets everyone.

Gambits in this game are synonymous with traps. Sometimes gambits are lies, sometimes gambits are making something seem like something else. Good examples of gambits are claiming one-shot vig when you are two-shot so you can stop the mafia from killling you after you've used the first shot, drawing the nightkill by acting like a powerrole when VT, etc.

Why so eager to defend me, Nacho? If you're hoping that doing so will ingratiate me to you, while using terminology that subtly implies I have ulterior motives, you're mistaken.

Because you're town, and your lynch is stupid. Getting the lynch off you will get the lynch onto mafia.

Where've you been since we started, Nacho?

I've been gone, sitewide. You can verify this by clicking my name, pressing "search user's posts", then looking at timestamps.

[Nachomamma8]

I do not, however, follow how your explanation of gambits voids my refutation of your description of my activities. In all cases, by definition, a gambit implies some sort of deception, subterfuge, or manipulation. In line with the common-wisdom policy of lynching all liars, implying that someone as gambitting is casting suspicion on them, the existence of many pro-Town gambits notwithstanding. I would prefer you simply retract the label, as it implies something I don't think you meant.

I meant fully what I said, but you don't have to worry that I'm casting suspicion on you in any respect. You DID deceive silver into thinking that him tagging along an unreasoned vote after yours would be perfectly acceptable, did you not?
Keep in mind that in order for town to win, we cannot be open like books. We have some deceit of our own to do, deceit which requires pretty talented play, to be honest. After all, you wouldn't want to end up hurting the town instead of killing the mafia, right?

@Nacho: how exactly do you know that Pine is town? From his loudness?

And in addition, from the way that he's been approaching the game. I like it.
And mafia are never the first to think up of traps like the one Pine did.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Verbs

@Silver: IGMEOY, I strongly dislike players that do not actively attempt to scumhunt.

VOTE: Hazard with a Glove, Where is your other glove?

Why did you cast a random vote here instead of one on Silver?

My first point against you was because I said I dislike players that stall the game by not voting. You countered with “oh but I scum hunt by doing x, y, and z” and than the the no lynch vote happened. That did not help us hunt down scum at all.

No, you said that you said you disliked players WHO DIDN'T SCUMHUNT. He pointed out how he scumhunted, and you changed the point.

Are you going to continue stalling all game because even if you are town, that is only helping the mafia.

This is hypocritical. How is HE stalling the game when YOU are the one who isn't posting?

[Nachomamma8]

So, who are you looking at for possible mafia at the moment?

[Nachomamma8]

It's a nice transition, though.
Why aren't you voting any of them?

[Nachomamma8]

I disagree on both counts.
...which, of course, is besides the point. Why did you dodge my question?

[Nachomamma8]

Only game I haven't caught up in, got to go, so this is going to be a quick one. I'm fairly confident drewoftherushes is scum. I've done my reading (Joe, deserata, and Pine all have a 90% chance of being town right now), and he looks like likeliest scum. And it's all based on how he's approaching the game.

What I originally thought Silver meant by this was that someone who pays particular attention to the way they say everything is trying too hard and that effort might be construed as scummy. I don't think it's a bad philosophy (trying too hard to look normal is scummy), but I totally disagree with this being a reliable way to tell who is mafia. Some people just plain write well - I write more in-line with textbook grammar because I'm a writer. Some people get their meaning across and pay no attention to those rules. Neither method is right or wrong, correct or incorrect, scum or town.

What's more telling is how Silver has inelegantly defended this statement. I'm not convinced it's a scumtell, though, just someone being daft.

This post suggests Silver-town. Next post, he votes Silver.

If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

After he goes on this huge rant on HOW a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment, he decides to tell silver to change the way he posts so he can survive.

I'm thinking the same thing, but bad townie and bad mafia often look very similar, in my experience. Still keeping an eye out.

This was in response to Pine calling silver bad town. He says this with his vote on Silver.

I will follow up on this tomorrow, but I'm pretty confident about it so don't expect it to change.

[Nachomamma8]

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

Now, what makes you believe that? Please respond with two facts in mind: firstly, I made no appeal whatsoever to Pine in my posts, and secondly, that you were one of Pine's townreads before my post. Meaning that if I WERE trying to convince Pine to vote with me, then I was making no appeal to him and that I was attacking one of his townreads, as opposed to the town of his scumreads.

This post does not suggest Silver is town, it denies that Silver's grammar point was a scumtell. I think that's pretty clear. I later voted Silver because of other scummy things he'd said, to put pressure on him.

At this point, this was the only thing you said about silver. So, the only post you had on record about him was defending him. That suggests you believed Silver was town.

My rant was not on "how a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment," it was about grammar having no effect on alignment. If you'd read the thread instead of reading me in iso, you would have seen the context. Again, this is Nacho taking ZERO evidence and trying to lead the town to an opinion.

Also, I stand by the statement that if you're town, you should not draw negative attention to yourself so that town can survive. Can you really argue with that?

There's a pretty strong parallel between how a person posts and grammar in a person's posts. Both can't change on command (although some players do have several different metas), and grammar in a person's post is involved in exactly how they post. I don't see any significant difference in the two that meant the difference between me misrepping you and me accurately representing you, so why do you believe the difference in phrases would be all-important in you being found as scum or town?

The problem with you telling silver to change the way he posts is not that it's good advice, but that it's impossible advice. As mentioned before, posting style is not something that changes immediately, so you telling him to change it NOW is naive at best.

I stand by that statement as well. Does anyone disagree that bad town and bad mafia look similar on paper? I had my vote on Silver because nobody had given me a reason to change it, until now.

The problem with that statement is that it was said while you were agreeing with Pine calling silver town. I will address this in my followup.

[Nachomamma8]

This post suggests Silver-town. Next post, he votes Silver.

As Hoppster previously mentioned, scum are much more likely to flipflop on their opinions since they never have any real opinions anyways. However, my larger problem with this post is how drew simply defended silver in this post instead of actually calling him town. In my experience, I've found that when town defends, they defend because they believe people are town. When scum defends, they defend because they believe they have something to gain from it. Since he votes silver in his next post, we can gather that he doesn't have that strong of a feeling that silver is scum, and thus, he's only defending because he has something to gain from it. Whether he is defending silver to recruit him to his side, or whether he was defending him because he thought he could make someone else looks bad remains to be seen. As to why his switch to silver itself is scummy, that's because it's completely unfounded. He says it is based on "silver's recent comments", but the only thing silver does inbetween drew's two posts is vote for joe. Something interesting that DOES happen, however, is an L-2 vote for silver by Verbs. This would put silver within quickhammering range if all the previous wagonees on silver were town, so it's suspicious that he decides to flip-flop on his opinion at this particular point in time.

After he goes on this huge rant on HOW a person posts having absolutely no effect on alignment, he decides to tell silver to change the way he posts so he can survive.

The whole "if you're town, we need you to survive this lynching" sounds a bit odd to me, especially compared to his later posting where he calls the D1 lynch only a little better than a random lynching. With that in mind, it seems more like an effort to sound townie than natural posting. His command to silver to stop drawing negative attention is also scummy because it's impossible. Acting like you're giving someone a way out of the lynch without actually doing so is a nice way to cover yourself when your suspect flips town, and that's exactly what drew is doing in this situation.

This was in response to Pine calling silver bad town. He says this with his vote on Silver.

I don't like this because he's agreeing with Pine calling silver town while still pushing his lynch. As I mentioned earlier, agreeing with someone is a great way to get on their good side, and the fact that drew continues to push silver's lynch immediately after agreeing that silver was town shows that he doesn't truly agree with Pine. And the only other reasons I can think of for saying you agree with someone when you really don't all point to scum.

[Nachomamma8]

And, Pine? I'm not willing to hammer drew at this time.
If you'd notice, drew was voted four times in two pages, which, for a newbie game, is far too fast for a lynch. I'd rather see his defense first, and be confident while lynching him.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean "how a person posts?" That phrase is too vague to have any meaning. Grammar is a part of "how a person posts," true. But my point was that you can't tell who's scum by their grammar. Are you really saying that you can? I don't think this is just a "difference in phrases," and I don't think it's "all-important in me being found as scum or town," I was defending my comments, which I continue to defend. I really want you to answer these questions because you have me very confused with this post.

I'll answer your questions once you answer mine.

It's not impossible advice at all. If Silver (or anyone) is town, I want them to clearly and concisely answer when people question them. That's impossible? It's not a naive thing to say.

It's impossible advice because it is impossible for Silver to change his posting style so quickly. If I told you to stop pinging my scumdar, would you be able to do so immediately?

Is there a problem with keeping a suspicious eye on someone that I think might be town? If you really look at my posts, I'm publicly wrestling with the idea of Silver as mafia or town, and I still haven't come to a determination.

You were agreeing that he was town, not thinking that he might be town. You shouldn't be publicly wresting with the idea of someone as mafia if you are agreeing with someone that they're town.

[Nachomamma8]

I still don't think Nacho has come up with anything solid against me. Also notice that Nacho has the chance to put the hammer down but is hesitating - he knows that I'm town, and that he's screwed tomorrow when I flip town.

This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Are you suggesting that it would be more pro-town of me to throw the hammer down on you without a claim OR a defense?

[Nachomamma8]

Recklessness is NOT a town tell when it abounds into idiocy. And since you're prescribing to the same town process as Drew, please answer the same question posed to Drew.

[Nachomamma8]

Had I hammered when you demanded I hammer, drew never would've been able to make the defense in post #184. My reasoning in post #185 never would've seen light. Hoppster wouldn't have been able to decide whether he liked drew's new defense or not. The question IS valid, and you have no reason to continue ignoring it.

[Nachomamma8]

Sort of. You could do a much better job of it, though, mostly by putting your reasoning by that yes/no answer.

[Nachomamma8]

Alright, so I've been deliberately delaying my response to Drew's case, just so I could get some input from desi, Verbs, or Hazard before putting anymore of my own in. But, it seems that I was naive in thinking that they would show up within a reasonable time frame, so I'll give my response now:

I still think that Drew's scum. However, I do see that my main point was mostly based off of a misconception I had of one of Drew's posts, meaning that he isn't quite as scummy as I thought he was. And, in my opinion, it's never a good idea to lynch one of the more active players when the game starts to stall, so I'm willing to back off of him for now and reanalyze his play in a few days or so. In the meantime, I'm sick of these lurkers.

Vote: Hazard With A Glove

What set me off in respect to Hazard was his latest post, #178, where he responds to Pine's post an hour later (showing that he checks the forum regularly), votes Silver (deliberately ignoring the forming wagon on Drew), and disappears for another two days.

[Nachomamma8]

Before that happens, I'd at least like a Verbs replacement. We still have a good chunk of time before deadline, but if it's going to be spent like this, then we might as well get a hammer on Hazard now. I am curious as to why silver finds Hazard's point a good one, however...

[Nachomamma8]

I don't want any hammers until Verbs and joe report back.

[Nachomamma8]

All suspicion is carried over. They share the same slot, and thus, share the same role. Why would we give them a clean slate?

[Nachomamma8]

bah
go town!