Newbie 1074(Game Over|Scum Win!!!)

[Hoppster]

FIRST POST! GO ME!

VOTE: 1joe60

Having a number before AND after your username is just silly.

Posting this to prevent being ninja'd for first post, I will post a more serious second post soon.

[Hoppster]

So, hi to Hazard with a Glove and Nachomamma8 who I have played with before! (Coincedentally, both in Newbie games.)

And a warm welcome to the rest of you. I am Hoppster, one of your 'Semi-Experienced (SE)' players. This means I have completed at least 2 games on site. Hazard with a Glove is the other SE player, and Nacho is your (our) 'Inexperienced-Challenged (IC)'. ICs are players who have a decent level of experience and are here to show players the ropes.

As I'm typing this I've come to the conclusion that I'm not great at giving out advice. I was going to post more, but fear that I will end up looking like a total prat, so I'm stopping now. Nacho can take up the reigns when he comes. However, I would advise everybody to at least cast a cursory glance at the wiki for common abbreviations/terms (such as WIFOM and AtE).


A question for everybody: how much Mafia (RL and forum) experience do you have?

I have three completed games on-site (and a bunch of marathon games), and I play it in RL at a family/friend get-together my family has every two months or so.

Also, everybody, get a unique avatar. It makes identifying people much easier and faster.

/prat-post.


Preview Edit: @ Silver: Why are you waiting to vote? Go ahead and dive in. It's all part of the fun.

@ desiderata: If Silver1337 was trying to cover his base in case Nacho turns out to be mafia, wouldn't that make him town(-aligned)? Or are you saying you think Silver is/could be mafia with Nacho?

[Hoppster]

@ Silver: Thank you. I return the compliment - your avatar is nearly as awesome as mine.

I suspect that the games on this site will be slower-paced than other sites. I also wouldn't expect you to be used to this site without even completing a game...?


A couple of questions for you as well:

1. Are you going to cast a 'random' vote (ie. one similar to the one I made in my first post)? If not, why not?

2. What's your feeling towards desiderata's vote on your/reason for voting you?

[Hoppster]

@ Silver: So what do you think of me voting without seeing any suspicious behaviour posts?

@ Pine: So should I consider you as a heavily experienced player? Or a happy medium between inexperienced and heavily experienced?

[Hoppster]

You all seem to have avatars. Excellent. Much brighter place now.

@ 1joe60: According to the site, you joined almost 2 years ago?

@ Verbs: I actually have not played mafia on any other sites apart from this one. However, I've read a game on Epic Mafia, and if I'm honest it seemed to be less of a standard. Apologies to any of you who are regulars on Epic Mafia, I didn't mean to offend you if I have, and I suppose it's possible that it was that one random game where people played terribly. Was it an off-site game? I can't seem to find your other game.

@ desiderata: Yes, I will admit that struck me as a bit odd that Silver didn't react. However, regardless of this, only mafia would need to cover their tracks if Nacho was mafia. If Silver wasn't mafia, then he would have no need to cover his tracks. (I'm nitpicking, but I need to get discussion going.)

@ drew: It depends on the game/mod, deadline-wise. However, all Newbie Games do have a standard 3-week deadline. And with regards to how many games people play at once, it depends on the player's personal preference. Some prefer to dedicate more attention to one or two games, whereas some will have 5 on the go (or maybe even more). I myself have 2 games on the go, with a third in sign-ups. I wouldn't consider myself to be

heavily

experienced in RL mafia (as most of the people I play with kinda suck), so I'm not sure how 'sophisticated' your RL mafia is, but forum mafia is really quite different. Of course, everything you say is on record, and therefore it's a lot easier to see how your actions line up with what you say.

Also (and this applies to everybody else who hasn't voted as well),

don't be afraid of voting this early on

. You don't have to be 100% that the person you are voting for is mafia, as it's very unlikely that there will be a quick lynch directly from an early (or 'random') vote. It's just to spark discussion.


To all: I recommend that you use the vote and unvote tags when voting (and unvoting). They give your vote a white background, so it stands out. You can do this by clicking on the 'vote' and 'unvote' buttons respectively (duh), or by using the code:

Code: Select all

[unvote]Player A[/unvote] to unvote Player A
[vote]Player B[/vote] to vote Player B

It's not necessary to unvote before re-voting (although it makes it easier for the mod and other players to follow). If you do unvote, you also don't need specify the player you are unvoting (ie. 'Unvote: Player A') as 'Unvote' will suffice.

[Hoppster]

I can sense that this will be an interesting game.


@ Silver: I'm inclined to side with Pine here. I would have expected at least a line or two of explanation, even if it were something as simple as "Okay, why not".

@ Nacho: Don't worry. Your first post was totally worth reading. Please don't feel obliged to post more.

@ Pine: So Hazard's 'almost certain' assertion of my innocence (which I'll admit is a tad early) brings up a major red flag, but not one enough to make you reconsider your vote?

@ drew: The other mafioso and I actually survived and won. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 43&start=0 <- link for anybody interested.

I disagree that a loud, aggressive player is a sure-fire tell of either town or scum. It could work either way (although, granted, it is probably more risky as scum).

Town

wants

to be analyzed, critically examined, and investigated. Scum attempting to use that strategy are playing with fire at best, because with an aggressive style, one slip and you're screwed.

I play loudly and aggressively. Deal with it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

My sources tell me good things will happen if I do this.

[Hoppster]

Holy crap, first wall of the game. Kind of you to use the spoiler tags though, Pine.

First section of the post is directed at Silver, second at Pine.

Sorry, I was tired. I will explain more now.
So, everyone has figuratively said that "It's okay to vote now, besides, you can change your vote." That is why I have started voting. How I scumhunt is basically I inspect the posts to see if anything is awry. Examples of Mafia-aligned terminology and activity is the following:

- Using too proper grammar or no proper grammar at all.

I'm thinking that it was a coincedence that the mafia just happened to be the ones who used 'too proper grammar'. Don't use that as an attack against people.

UNVOTE: Unvote: Nachomamma8
VOTE: Vote: No Kill

I don't see suspicious behavior now, but that isn't to say that I won't change my mind!

No. Voting for No Lynch helps only the mafia. Lynching is our only weapon against the mafia. We need to use it. If we go to No Lynch, that just means that Mafia get one extra kill compared to the number of lynches we have to find mafia. Unvoting is fine though.

... However, why are you unvoting anyway? You were only voting for Nacho, who hasn't really posted, so unless you're voting for somebody else (which you're not

really

doing, and presumably won't be if you see no suspicious behaviour,) then I don't understand what has prompted you to change your mind.

=====================================

I disagree that a loud, aggressive player is a sure-fire tell of either town or scum. It could work either way (although, granted, it is probably more risky as scum).

Despite this, you're still willing to pile on to a forming bandwagon?

A. I disagree that a loud, agressive player is a scum or town-tell (ie. it is a null-tell).
B. I am willing to vote you.

Those two points are unrelated. Your question implies that in B I am contradicting A. This is not the case. A is not the reason I am voting for you (well, it is in a very loose way, but I'd suggest not the way that you're thinking it is).

But anyway, to answer your question (as horribly phrased as it may be), yes. Yes I am.

Put words in my mouth at your own peril, because it is damn close to lying and misrepresentation. And as you seem somewhat experienced, I do not think I need to remind you what common wisdom suggests we do to people who do that:
Lynch All Liars

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

My sources tell me good things will happen if I do this.

You

just

said that you don't find it likely that scum would play this way, but you overcome those doubts to pursue someone trying to lay all of his cards on the table?

Now look who's putting words into other people's mouths. When did I say I don't find it likely scum would play the way your are playing? I said it'd be

risky

for them to do it.

And there is no such thing as "too proper grammar." It's either correct or not correct.

Seriously... let's not go there. Paticularly as it's in response to a post where correct grammar is scummy.

[Hoppster]

@ des: drew has actually voted for pine.

Regarding my vote, I'm being more lenient towards people in this game then I normally am. Besides, the only real thing that has been suspect from Silver have been his late vote, his random list of some nonsensical scum-tells and his No Lynch vote, both of which can be explained from the point of somebody new to the site or new to the game.

[Hoppster]

I don't normally post at this time, but just a quick post to warn people about voting Silver. We don't want to hammer him before he claims, but there's an awful lot of people voting for him now. Silver, don't claim until you're at L-1 and somebody is willing to hammer.

[Hoppster]

Dear me. I have the unfortunate feeling that we've already got a lynch.

This is by far the quickest lynch I've ever seen D1, and it is extremely unfortunate that it has come in a Newbie. Within 48 hours of game start, I believe...

Silver [5] - desiderata, Pine, 1joe60, Verbs, drewoftherushes

Egaddddddd. This is not good. >.<

@ Mod: Is there any way we could get leniency on this day due to it being day one and all and we didn't really even get time for a proper vote count?

Eh...

FWIW, I very much doubt that we'll get some kind of 'undo', but if we do, Pine, I'd like you to stop ignoring my post here.

[Hoppster]

@ Pine: I can't actually find the actual post now (even ISOing you), and I'm too tired to look more carefully right now. I'll have another look tomorrow. However, off the top of my head, your 'case' on me was based on two points: a) Me 'parroting' your logic; b) Hazard and I having some kind of mutual* defence.

My response (in brief):

a) We think alike in some cases, why is this scummy? If it's due to the fact that you posted first, then that's something based on factors out of my control.

b) I haven't been defending him, so it's not mutual*. Also, his defence of me is yet again something based on factors out of my control. And FWIW, I can see where he's coming from with his defence (although he's leaped to that conclusion far too swiftly).

*DISCLAIMER: you may not have said mutal, I can't remember.

@ Mod: Can I request a

polite reminder

to Hazard with a Glove that this game exists/has started? I know it hasn't been 72 hours yet, but he didn't seem to have bookmarked it before and it's possible that he still hasn't.

[Hoppster]

Reading back through people's ISOs, there's a few things I've picked up on:

@Nachos: That was meant to be my answer. If you don't get it, by that post I meant that I am not completely certain that they are Mafia, but I should still keep my eye on them because you never know.

You don't need to be certain somebody is mafia in order to vote for them. But, if you feel that's the case, why have you voted at all?


I can go for a Drew wagon. Hopped on the Pine wagon far too easily - he expressed suspicion, but didn't vote until immediately after I voted.

UNVOTE: (if I haven't already)
VOTE: drewoftherushes

[Hoppster]

Scroll to the bottom of the page, and you'll find something looking like this (just under 'Quick Reply box'):

Where it says 'Hoppster', it will say 'All users'. Click on the drop-down list, and select a player. Click 'Go', and you'll be taken to that player's posts in isolation (ie, just their posts, nobody else's). It makes it much easier to identify inconsistencies.

When players talk about ISOing a player, it means doing this to isolate their posts.

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE:

I think I'm being paranoid with my vote on drew. I re-read it, and I'm not sure what I was quite getting at before.


@ des: You seem to be waaay to over-cautious with your vote for my liking. In fact, the only vote you've made is your 'random/RVS' vote. In your ISO you express suspicion of drew and Hazard at different times, yet neither comes with a vote. This would be okay if you do the 'multiple person questioning' ala Pine, but then you say your style is focusing in on one person. If you only focus on one person at a time, then surely a vote has to come with it? Otherwise there is no pressure whatsoever. Why are you not using your vote?


Nacho touched on this before, but:

@Silver: IGMEOY, I

strongly

dislike players that do not actively attempt to scumhunt.

My first point against you was because I said I dislike players that stall the game by not voting.

I feel that you are misunderstanding me here. I'll give you my logic from the very start of the issue. Silver originally said something to the extent that he wasn't going to vote till he saw something scummy. I than said that I was going to keep my eye on him because I disliked players that did not actively scum hunt which is exactly the same as: delaying/stalling the game.

You still haven't explained the discrepancy between disliking players that don't scumhunt and players that don't vote. What is it, a bit of both? A typo?

[Hoppster]

UNVOTE: Silver
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

<snip>

Perhaps the most telling part about this post is that Nacho never really explains why the things he's pointed out paint me as scum. Even if I was flip-flopping on my opinion of Silver, nowhere does Nacho illustrate exactly why that would make me scum. I'd like anyone to point out where they disagree with me here. I can confidently vote Nacho because he's leading town into a silly lynch with no evidence.

How is it clearly scum trying to get Pine on his side for an unjust lynch?

In the first two points, Nacho is (as far as I can tell) pointing out how what you say doesn't match up with what you do. Town have no real reason for this to happen, as they should mean everything they say. What scum say, however, is largely feigned/faked, so it's possible they forget what they said, and as such contradict themselves.

I am not completely sure what he's on about with his last point, I'll admit, however, generally, contradicting yourself is scummy.

While I don't think Nacho's case paints you as clear-cut scum, your reaction is very scummy to me. You have no case on Nacho. I really don't know why you're voting him. As far as I can tell, your reason for voting him simplifies down to "I'm town and he's voting me", which of course is OMGUS.

I agree largely with what Pine's been saying, however, I disagree that Nacho's case is a good case. I actually think drew's current explanations are completely acceptable. However, his response in general seems really, really scummy to me.

Drew is getting more suspicious with his posts...
I really don't understand why he would vote Nacho. Nacho seems like a sensible player.

Again, please tell me why I am suspicious. You guys are saying things without evidence.

Haven't you done that?

Silver's just digging that hole deeper and deeper with recent comments. If you are town, silver, stop saying things that don't make much sense, because we need you to survive this lynching.

And also, to a lesser extent, here:

Finally someone gives me a cause for real suspicion. Until now, Pine has been the only one trying to build a case against me. This post from Nacho is clearly scum trying to get the most vocal member of the game (Pine) on his side for an unjust lynch, hoping more will follow.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: drew

[Hoppster]

@ drew: Still suspicious of Nacho?

Y'know, I just realized how talented you are at lurking. Bravo. When D2 starts, it's gonna be all Hazard and Verbs, all the time.

Why not now? We've still got nearly two weeks.

[Hoppster]

Heh. In what flavor would you like your sucking up, Robo? Subtle flattery or straight-up boorishness?

As alluded to in 201, I'm willing to go after any of my top scum reads if there's support for it. And my number one scum read, of course, gets priority.

VOTE: Hazard With a Glove

Show yourself and answer for your lurking, Scum.

One vote (from Nacho) equals support? I know you left yourself a get-out clause for changing vote, but aside from that, isn't your vote directly contradicting your other post (201)?

Because neither seem much inclined to answer questions. My policy is that any lynch of someone in my top three scum reads is a good one, and Drew is tussling with Verbs for second on that list.

What made you change your mind from this post? Did you suddenly think that having Nacho on their wagon would prompt them to answer questions where they previously wouldn't have?


I'd like to here more from Joe. Comments on recent events to come after he's made some input.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY DES. If you put your birthday into your profile you get a special cake (or balloons or something) icon for the day.

[Hoppster]

Holy scumtastic wagoning, you two.

UNVOTE: Hazard

I'm certain of his scum status, but this rush to L-1 smells really bad. I think someone's bussing, and I want to find out who.

Oh. Hey Drew.

At this point, I'm suspecting a Hazard/Drew team.

Since he's down to L-3, I'll put that pressure right back on.
VOTE: Hazard

Why is it scum bussing when drew puts Hazard at L-2 but when you do it, it's just putting pressure on him?


I'm wary of an attitude I saw evidence for earlier which seems to have been "LET'S GIVE SILVER A FREE PASS". Only drew seems to have expressed any suspicion of silver for his speedy L-1 vote.


Also - I'm in 2 games ongoing with Hazard, 1 finished... He is a lurker, it's his meta. (Just to warn you guys so you don't expect any miracles.)

[Hoppster]

Man...

I have to say, I have no argument really against a Hazard lynch right now.

Having said that, des, why did you feel the need to put Hazard to L-1?

[Hoppster]

Silver, Nacho's point is that you admitted this was a good point:

Good point everyone has... also putting Hazard at L-1.
VOTE: Hazard With a Glove
I probably would've changed votes earlier if I wasn't at school so don't ask!

And then he switches to me with an excuse so that people won't ask why he did that. Really?
That is all I have for now.

Which means you are admitting you used the excuse so that nobody would ask. Why springs the question: why didn't you want people to ask? Did you have secret evil intentions?


At the rate this game is going, however, I think this is an issue for Day 2. This game really is stalling quite badly.

Hazard, consider this intent to hammer.

[Hoppster]

@ Pine: What you're basically saying is "YOU'RE STALLING! P-Edit: Oh yeah, stalling is good. BUT WHY ARE YOU STALLING?!"

But anyway. In the first quote, we'd just built up to L-1 seriously rapidly. Are you suggesting it'd have been more pro-town of me to just hammer right then?

In the second quote, I'm prompting Hazard to claim.

Not much to say in my favor. L-1 after 10 pages doesn't seem too soon to me. *someone* will be L-1.

It wasn't so much the actual putting him at L-1, but the reasoning. L-2 is plenty of pressure. L-1 is admittedly more pressure, but then runs the risk of people quickhammering.

[Hoppster]

@ Pine: Is that self-derision or an insult towards me?


@ Nacho: How crucial is it that we have (before hammering): a) A Hazard claim; b) A Verbs replacement?

I'm not really seeing any wagon change at this rate even with a Hazard PR claim, and I'm not sure what a Verbs replacement pre-D2 would significantly add.


@ des: Why did you phrase it as a pressure vote then when you just didn't want to hammer?

@ Mod: Any news on the Verbs front yet?

[Hoppster]

FOS: Desiderata

Committed this scumtell (last one on the page)

The wiki is out-dated according to site meta, apparently (as I've found out in one of my ongoing games) - people know of their existence and therefore don't make those errors. So take everything it says with a pinch of salt (in future games).

Although I do tend to believe that it probably does have some accuracy for Newbie games where people are unfamiliar with the wiki scum-tells.

@ des: Why did you phrase it as a pressure vote then when you just didn't want to hammer?

This is still unanswered.

VOTE: desiderata

[Hoppster]

@ des: Why did you phrase it as a pressure vote then when you just didn't want to hammer?

This is still unanswered.

VOTE: desiderata

Huh. I guess you've chosen to 'overlook' this?

desiderata's attack on Pine and I reads as very much an OMGUS-attack. Why is using a tell from a wiki enough to jump us both to the top of your scum-list and OVERRULE ALL DAY ONE POSTS? And why aren't you voting either of us if you're so confident in this scum-tell to make it jump to the top of your list?

Later on in the post, you fully admit to being aware of making scum-tells:

Obviously, when left to my own instincts I just do one scumtell after the other, which is really not the best way to help town, I guess.

So why is kr0bs picking up on one fine, but then with Pine & I it's suspicious?


This case on Pine seems mostly misdirected. It's perfectly fine to be outraged when people are slandering you wrongly. While the implication of a lynch as punishment was a bit over the top, it's very easy for people to get posessed by rage/emotion when playing this game, which if anything imo, is a town-tell. Scum can't afford to let themselves get so wound up or they may slip up. I think Pine also admitted the hammer-luring was meant to be a trap.


(@ des: FOS stands for Finger Of Suspicion.)

Preview Edit: Ninja'd.

[Hoppster]

@ des: Why did you phrase it as a pressure vote then when you just didn't want to hammer?

This is still unanswered.

VOTE: desiderata

Huh. I guess you've chosen to 'overlook' this?

I keep reading that question, and not understanding what it means. I was honest about what I was doing.

Ok then. I'll put Hazard at L-1, see if that gets him talking.

VOTE: Hazard

I didn't want to be the one to hammer, I guess

In the first quote, your attitude is 'I'm voting Hazard because I want him to talk'.
In the second quote, your attitude is 'I'm voting Hazard because I want him lynched (but I just don't want to be the hammer)'.

So, my question is, if you wanted Hazard lynched, why did you phrase it as a vote just to get him talking?

Apparently, my ONE "scumtell" from the FAQ trumped all MY previous voting, so I think you guys are framing me. You just waited to see if someone would "slip" so that you could direct attention that way. The venom of your attacks is completely unfounded on my one little act of unFAQ reading

This is such an overreaction it's ridiculous.

That one wiki-endorsed scum-tell wasn't the basis from my vote. It was you ignoring my other question.

And these attacks were hardly

venomous

. Pine hadn't even voted you yet. Pine's got it in one - you're just panicking with the threat of an attack on you.

OBVIOUSLY, in case you are going to jump on this, I am not "that" confident. This is my first game here, I need to understand how people play. So since it's either limited mental effort and overreliance on the wiki, vs. scum doing a pretty good frame job, I'm not voting yet.

So the reason you're not voting for either Pine or I is that you're not confident enough. However, it is not unfair to say that you're being far more agressive in attacking both of us than you ever were attacking Hazard, yet you seemed to find it no trouble to vote Hazard and put him at L-1.

Des, read my post above, it's obvious what Pine's doing. He's pissing you off on purpose, because your reaction makes you look scummy.

So you agree that des is scummy?

[Hoppster]

But this little tag team you and Hoppster have got going is really suspicious. One of you is scum.

Why one of us?

Who exactly has said that's not the case? I think we all agree that's why you voted for Verbs. Did I miss anything?

Oh, yes. You 'missed' my question again.

@ des: Why did you phrase it as a pressure vote then when you just didn't want to hammer?

@ Silver: drew says 2 out of {you, Pine and I} are scum. Thoughts?
@ drew: You're suspicious of Pine 'dodging your questions' but not of desiderata ignoring my (in my opinion) more pertinent question?

[Hoppster]

I keep reading that question, and not understanding what it means.

I was honest about what I was doing

. How should I have phrased it to make you less suspicious? There's no way, you're just looking at your list of "scumtells" which again is bullshit and about as good as checking your horoscope to help you out in the game, and deciding that some of them apply to me. Of course, you're not looking at all the ones that don't apply, because for some reason you have decided to frame me. The level of obsession with every single effing detail I'm doing to find something that doesn't jive with what you think is "proper" play, as if I had a list of appropriate phrases to use, is annoying. I can't tell if it's scum talk, or if you actually are expected to play like that. If it's the latter, you might as well lynch me and see I'm town, and start thinking that some people don't fit into your tiny boxes.

This is

not

an answer to my question. This is all a complaint about how you're being framed and how the question is bogus.

I thought it was obvious this was the case, but apparently not. So, to make it super-clear, THIS IS NOT AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. The underlined bit is the only relevant bit. Even that bit makes no sense (see below).

I took that to mean that Hazard was at L-2, and des wanted to pressure Hazard to talk, so he put him at L-1. At the same time, he was glad he wasn't the hammer. Was it smart for des to admit he was glad to not be the hammer? Probably not, because town don't mind hammering someone they think is scum. But you and des both expressed that Hazard was going to probably get lynched no matter what happened. So why are you so insistent that des wanting to put pressure on Hazard and des not wanting to be the hammer are mutually exclusive situations?

YOU'RE MISSING THE ISSUE HERE.

des was glad not to be the hammer - whilst still wanting Hazard to be lynched - whilst apparently voting Hazard for pressure.

Essentially, this means that des would, had Hazard been at L-1, not wanted to hammer herself but have wanted somebody else to hammer and would have had no problems with this. Similarly, placing Hazard at L-1 herself, she wouldn't have been able to hammer Hazard herself (but wouldn't have wanted to anyway) but again she would have had wanted somebody else to hammer and would have had no problems with this.

This is not a pressure vote. This is a vote with intention to lynch, disguised as a pressure vote.

[Hoppster]

@Hoppster - I understand all that, but you're going to have to explain to me why it means des is scum.

Des felt the need to disguise what wasn't a pressure vote as a pressure vote.

Town don't feel the need to pretend a vote is a pressure vote when they really just want a lynch. Scum are worried about being attacked and so disguise the vote if they feel it will help the vote fly under the radar.

[Hoppster]

@ Mod: Requesting Joe prod, thanks.

Silver and kr0b, you need to take a firm side. If Joe gets back, you too.

[Hoppster]

Got one down on des atm. Although I wouldn't be too opposed to a lurker lynch really (kr0b) just for the sake of the game.

I'll see where this des wagon takes us with Silver's vote.

[Hoppster]

Ah, yes, that reminds me. I didn't respond to this:

Right, that's what I thought you meant, but here's what I'm saying: you can want a lynch and want to make a pressure vote. A vote only gives pressure because there's a threat to lynch in it. If you say, "I'm voting you to pressure you but I don't want you to get lynched," why would that person talk? It's not a threat.

Of course a pressure vote carries the threat of becoming a vote with intention to lynch. That's the point, as you say. However, it has a

threat

of

becoming

a vote with intention to lynch. It's not a "LET'S LYNCH!!!" vote primarily though (a vote with the intention to lynch regardless of reaction/answer), which I would have said des' vote was.

@ Pine: I prefer the des wagon out of the two atm. I'll switch over to the drew wagon if it gets another vote or the game continues to stall, but I don't want to put people off the des wagon right now by leaving it because I prefer a des lynch to a drew lynch.

[Hoppster]

If anyone is persuaded by Hoppster's "argument", I'll address it yet again.

With the implication of course being that you've dealt with it before.

I keep reading that question, and not understanding what it means. I was honest about what I was doing.

I'm sorry, I fail to see the ominous implications of what I did.

^ Not a defence. If you've actually got a defence/explanation, feel free to actually post it.


Also, I dug up more stuff in your ISO:

My list right now is, from most scummy to least scummy

hazard
drew
verbs
silver/joe
hoppster
pine
nacho

I checked the link and I'm not sure what FOS means. Was it because I lamented Nacho's departure? That's a bullshit tell. I don't care it's on the freaking wiki, it's bullshit. I can see that it's a faux pas, but a "scumtell"? Pine and Hoppster have just made it to the top of my list.

I made a similar point before, but didn't back it up with the quotes.

Basically, (with Nacho NK'd of course) Pine and I would have been des' stronger town reads. Yet, with one post apiece, we jumped to the top of her scumlist - overruling both everything scummy that everybody else had done to be so high previously, and also what presumably we had done that seemed towny before to be so low on the list previously.

That makes no sense.


(Ninja'd.)

[Hoppster]

Just a quick post related to the more recent posts: this Newbie game probably isn't the best game for making a judgement on the overall site, or Newbie games in general. While you do get aggressive posters on the site (and some who seem to troll you as well), by and large it's a good community. I would encourage you to try another Newbie game when this is over (it's rare to get aggressive posters in Newbie games), and if this is getting tedious try an Open game (or possibly Mini Normal). This is a lot slower than any of my previous Newbie games.

I'll comment on des' game-related posts tomorrow when I have more time.

[Hoppster]

@ des: It wasn't the fact you voted that was the matter at all in any way (as you know, I was encouraging you to vote), or the stand-alone fact it put Hazard at L-1 that I found scummy. It was the combination of factors such as the timing of your vote, the way it was phrased, etc. Just so it's clear.

Lurky people: No hammers without asking for a claim please, thanks. Also, post more.


@ drew: Would you rather have a des lynch or a No Lynch?

[Hoppster]

@ Pine: The contradiction from Drew about wanting a des lynch but not wanting to vote I will agree with, however, I'm less convinced by the Town Lynch vs. No Lynch argument. From what I recall, newbie guides place at least some emphasis on how voting No Lynch is bad, and it's plausible that drew's picked this up from that.

This is mostly irrelevant though. There's no arguing against a Freudian slip like that from Drew.


Drew, you may as well claim. I'm willing and able to hammer.

UNVOTE: <--- Me preparing to hammer.

It'd be good to hear back from kr0b before the hammer, but eh. Not the end of the world if we don't.

[Hoppster]

Giving kr0b 12 hours to post, he's been online today.

[Hoppster]

I'm not going to be on in 2 hours, so...

VOTE: drew

[Hoppster]

I'm thinking that a mass claim could be worth a gamble. We can't lynch incorrectly. Lynch or Lose. We have to lynch correctly, we can't afford not to. We may out a PR but we may catch scum - yes?

@ des: Speculation on the death doesn't help a great deal at lylo, imo. Let's you be manipulated by scum.


Preview Edit: Pine - des pointed out yesterday that Nacho was killed possible due to his senior status, and then scum may have been dealing with WIFOM on whether to risk a doc protect on me or not due to my SE status. Or maybe they wanted to WIFOM everybody else into "HOPPSTER MUST BE SCUM BECAUSE HE'S ALIVE AND HE'S AN SE", I dunno.


We need to hear back from everybody, and then a popcorn mass claim would help imo.

(This is when a person is selected to claim first by general consensus, and then they pass to, or 'popcorn to', the person to claim next.)

[Hoppster]

Fffffffffu.

UNVOTE GODDAMNIT

GIVE ME 1 HOUR

[Hoppster]

... WHY IS YOUR VOTE STILL ON ME, PINE?

FUCCCCCK. DIFFERENT TIMEZONE?!

DIFFERENT TIMEZONE?!

ARE YOU ASLEEP?!

AAFEGIEOJGEIJG.

WHY ARE YOU VOTING ME IN LYLO WITH MINIMAL EVIDENCE, PINE?!

PINE, I THINK WE CAN WIN THIS GAME, AND I'M BEING TOTALLY SERIOUS. YOU NEED TO STOP BEING SUCH A DOUCHE AND UNVOTE ME RIGHT NOW SO I CAN WIN THIS GODDAMN GAME. >>

GODDDAMNIT.

I'M GIVING YOU 2 HOURS TO UNVOTE, BECAUSE SERIOUSLY, MY SUPER-AWESOME-PLAN WOULD BE MUCH BETTER IF I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT TRYING TO AVOID A QUICKHAMMER.

[Hoppster]

Hoppster, I'd like to know why what was yesterday a scumtell (me lamenting our IC) is now suddenly an interesting observation.

It's noteworthy, because if you're not scum, then it would be WIFOM-inducing for the actual scum.

If you are scum, obviously, it has no relevance, but it has relevance if you're town.

Interesting how you didn't realise this...


SERIOUSLY PINE UNVOTE LIKE RIGHT NOW

[Hoppster]

kr0b is

prob

town (LOLDATRHYMESINMYHEAD) for not voting me, I guess.

Which means the scum team is likely des+Silver.

Claim: Cop

N1 I investigated Pine, got Innocent
N2 I investigated des, got Guilty.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: desiderata

QUICK TOWN, FORM A HAMMER BEFORE THE SCUM QUICKHAMMER ME


I wanted to try and nail des' partner through interactions today and without outing myself so I could investigate this night, but eh. This works as well.


Pine, I'm either getting RB'd or NK'd depending on what the setup is, but kr0b is only PROBABLE town. Could be scum not wanting to out himself by failing to quickhammer due to lax partner. THIS IS IN YOUR HANDS NOW.

[Hoppster]

I'm thinking that a mass claim could be worth a

g

amble

. We can't lynch

i

ncorrectly

. Lynch or

L

ose

. We have to lynch correctly, we can't afford not

t

o

. We may out a PR but we may catch scum -

y

es

?

@ des

HERE'S MY SUPER-AWESOME BREADCRUMBED GUILTY.

Take the last letter in each sentence, and take the first letter of that word.

It seems I missed out the 'u', but eh. Took a ridiculous amount of time to breadcrumb that result.

I just remembered that if Pine does vote des I won't be quickhammered anyway, so it's all good. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DON'T VOTE DES, JUST UNVOTE ME FOR PETE'S SAKE

[Hoppster]

I did have a nagging suspicion that it might have been a trap, but I wasn't sure enough to risk the game on it. >>

[Hoppster]

Nice try, scum.

Is your scumbuddy the one who counterclaims me, then? That makes our life a lot easier.

Also, note how she doesn't vote me, even though if she's town I

have

to be scum.


No need to rush this lynch, we have time to catch her scumbuddy.

[Hoppster]

Fine. I'm not QUITE as sold on the Verbs/kr0b slot as town due to its visibility issues, but I am similarly encouraged by the lack of a vote when you voted me.

I'm likely dead tonight SO DON'T SCREW UP TOMORROW AND RUIN MY HARD WORK.

[Hoppster]

If des is a roleblocker, a mass claim will win the day for us.

One person claims doc, des roleblocker flip confirms the doc claim (presuming no counter-claim shenanigans).

That means 1 scum, 3 confirmed townies.

That's game!

[Hoppster]

So, think. You say you think hoppster is manipulating you. You vote for him. THERE'S NO QUICKLYNCH.

Well, obviously. You and your scumbuddy didn't post inbetween Pine voting and unvoting (or kr0b is at least a rather sensible scumbuddy).

[Hoppster]

COOLBEANZ.

That's the game basically in the bag then. I hope Silver has a nice time pondering over who to NK.

[Hoppster]

GG, scum.

[Hoppster]

*patiently awaits Mod for flip of Great Justice*

[Hoppster]

Hoppster, you were awesome. Congrats.

Ta.

/dances


I'll get some thoughts up on the game later once the mod confirms the result (and I've caught up in my other games).

[Hoppster]

^ SCUMCLAIM.

Oh wait, I'm scum.

[Hoppster]

Shame that Silver didn't get to post, but eh.

[Hoppster]

Oh, and although we're looking to quickhammer, you probably should NOT vote too early, as I see Pine using one of his patented traps.

I'll post the link to the QT if kr0b has no problems. Nothing very interesting in there, though.

I was the Roleblocker, kr0b was a goon.


I wanted Nacho dead N1 because I thought he'd be the biggest threat - Pine was likely to draw a doc protect due to his prescence in thread, and Nacho (having played in my first ever Newbie game) knew my town meta of sorts and that could have incriminated me.

I wanted 1joe60 dead N2 because he seemed to be flying under the radar of all suspicion. He was the one person at that point I was seeing as potentially being a PR (although, of course, if he was a PR there would be another PR somewhere but I was gonna cross that bridge when I came to it). kr0b wanted Pine killed but I thought I would let the suspicion against him simmer overnight.

Pine was roleblocked both nights because I thought he'd be the most dangerous with any PR that he did have.

[Hoppster]

Setup:

desiderata

Mafia <Goon or RB>

Vanilla Townie

Silver1337

Mafia <Goon or RB>

Vanilla Townie

kr0b

Town <Vanilla or Doctor>

Mafia Goon

Pine

Vanilla Townie

Hoppster,

Town Cop (or brilliantly gambitting Vanilla)

Mafia Roleblocker

Hazard with a Glove,

Vanilla Townie

Nachomamma8,

Vanilla Townie

drewoftherushes,

Vanilla Townie

1joe60,

Vanilla Townie

[Hoppster]

We probably should have waited for the completely official modflip before all the dead people flooded in, but whatever. I'll take the win.


Writing up thoughts on the game now.

[Hoppster]

My thoughts on the game

The kr0b/Verbs slot: Mistake for town to let the prolonged absence of the slot ease their suspicions. There was quite a lot of suspicion on Verbs towards the end of Day 1/start of Day 2, and I was wondering whether I'd have to bus or not.


Pine + his style of posting: Ehm. Difficult one, this. While Pine certainly seemed very alert, and he had me worrying - I was fairly paranoid for the latter part of the game on whether I was falling into one of his raps - I don't think it's beneficial in a Newbie. While newbscum will probably crack under intense interrogation, newbtown are also likely to get flustered with it. If it's their first game onsite and they're not expecting an experience like it... I suppose their brain can go to mush. Not saying that happened in this game (although to a slight extent I suppose it did), but in future games, I wouldn't be suprised if it induced tears/rage-fits/OMGIHATEYOUANDIHATETHISSTUPIDGAME.

Also, Pine, just FYI, I would never gambit like that as a Vanilla in a Newbie. Not only is it ridiculously risky for very little gain (except maybe getting a scum-read lynched, which I should be able to do without gambitting tbh), but it's sending Newbies mixed messages. IIRC, the Newbie guides scream "DON'T CLAIM COP IF YOU'RE NOT".


Arguments: Yeah, this. A lot of arguments seemed to dissolve into bickering. Which, not only doesn't really get anybody anywhere, but it lets people slip under the radar. If you're getting pissed off with somebody, you're less likely to notice a scummy post by somebody, or you're less likely to notice that so-and-so is lurking his ass off, or whatever.


The stalling near-deadline: I think this is partly my fault. Killing the (town) IC removes a good, reliable scumhunter (especially in Nacho!), and then we suffered some activity issues, and the town seemed to have a general feeling of apathy at times. I don't think that I was pushed enough by town - I managed to avoid taking any sort of stance on Verbs, and I was also very conscious of the fact that I felt some of my votes were made with poor reasoning, that I'm sure would have revealed itself had I been pushed a bit more.


Voting: What I've found here is that site meta sees not voting as generally being suspicious - it's avoiding taking a firm stance, it's not helping to move the game forward. Votes give more weight to your words, and they make your play easier to obtain a read from (which is good, you want people to read you and see that you're town).


The game conclusion: Well, kr0b and I were lucky in the setup, which is probably very much scum sided at 7:2, and then with no PR flips so far I was reasonably confident that there were no PRs, and even if there were, I'd be able to out-argue them.

des, in that situation where you have scum claiming cop and a guilty on you, I'd be tempted to counter-claim cop with a guilty on them even as a vanilla. Don't take that for gospel truth, though, best check with Nacho when he posts an endgame review.

The reason I claimed an innocent on Pine wasn't actually to buddy up with him, it's because I thought it was a feasible thing for me to have done as a cop. Y'know, wanting to check out the super-agressive player and all. I think I was very slightly attacking Pine D1 and then stopped D2, which would have backed me up.


My reaction to Pine's vote: Well. I wasn't really sure how to react, so I just played the desperation card. In reality, I was quite desperate to get the vote off me, as it'd be horribly incriminating if everybody posted with no quickhammer/votes. I'm not sure how it would have played out without Pine's vote on me. I'm curious as to what Silver would have done.

[Hoppster]

I think it's great, personally.

(You probably need to take what I say with a pinch of salt though as I'm probably a sub-mediocre player outside of Newbie games.)

[Hoppster]

@ drew: In Newbie games, using AtE as town on IC/SE-scum has the potential to be quite effective. I did feel quite guilty at times.

@ Pine: Careful there with references to ongoing games. (Is the twice repeated 'obvscum' intentional or a typo?)

[Hoppster]

YAY.

Thanks for modding, Robocopter.