Newbie 175 - Game Over

[elvis_knits]

I can see the affiliation under BigAl's name. It says, "goon." AsianHa and myself come up as "Townsperon." Does anyone else see that?????

When you have made 42 posts in mafia games, your status changes to "goon," and when you're as cool as me, and have over 100 posts, your status changes to "mafia scum." It has nothing to do with who is scum and who is town in this game.

[elvis_knits]

His goon status doesn't mean he's mafia or that he's not mafia. He could be either at this point. It looks like I am the most senior player here ( ) so I'll just say a few things about getting started , since AsianHa asked. Usually people open up with some random votes to generate discusion. Also, since this is a newbie game, people ask questions, like "What does FOS mean?" (It means "finger of suspicion" and people use it when they are suspicous but don't want to vote yet).

I'll

vote bigAl

Hey, bigAl, did you miss me?
(That's really just a random vote)

[elvis_knits]

<b>Unvote, Vote: TripMyWire</b>
Voting for a townie.
Of course, mafia is probably rejoycing at the moment.

AsianHa -- perhaps you don't realize that saying something like this is scummy. This is why: you said that you

know

you're voting for a townie. Other townies don't know who is mafia and who is town at this point. Only the mafia knows who are townies. Usually anybody who seems to have extra info is mafia. (They can be cops, but not in this game where we start with day and any cop -- if we have one -- hasn't made any investigations yet).

Also, if you KNOW somebody is a townie, you wouldn't vote for them unless you're mafia. If you're really a townie who just THINKS TripMyWire is a townie (and just used the wrong, very scummy wording above), I can't explain why you would want to vote for him.

unvote; vote AsianHa

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm...or are you trying to say that TripMyWire is voting for a townie when he votes for you?

In that case I think your statement is slightly less scummy. Still scummy though, IMO because TripMyWire said it was a random vote. There's really no reason to get too upset about a random vote. And overreacting when people vote for you is pretty scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Hmmm...or are you trying to say that TripMyWire is voting for a townie when he votes for you?

In that case I think your statement is slightly less scummy. Still scummy though, IMO because TripMyWire said it was a random vote. There's really no reason to get too upset about a random vote. And overreacting when people vote for you is pretty scummy.

It was this meaning.

Okay. I believe that you were talking about yourself being a townie. It makes more sense.

And the mafia will be happy at any vote for an innocent. It puts them one closer to the victory.

True the mafia are happy at any vote for an innocent but I wouldn't advise counting chickens before they're hatched. Anything can happen before the lynching vote is cast, so they shouldn't get too excited, and town shouldn't be too mad at other people voting on them. Guaging people's reactions when they come under pressure is a powerful tool for finding scum.

A few months ago when I started playing I used to feel like anyone who voted for me HAD to be scum. I think that's a natural reaction, but it's really not reliable.

P.S. Yes, bigAl, she has mentioned she is a townie a little too much. Seems forced to me.

[elvis_knits]

Perhaps there is a language barrier here.

"Scummy" means you are acting scummy, or acting suspicious. It means we (at least me, maybe more people) think you might be mafia.

And why is the town pressuring an innocent in the form of votes and constant calling of "scummy".

The point is that we do not know if you are innocent or not. Only the mafia know what players affiliations are. Townies don't know if they are pressuring an innocent.

Also, constantly saying that you are innocent, and that we should know you are innocent, is pretty scummy to me. This is because everyone will SAY they are innocent whether they are or not.

[elvis_knits]

AsianHa...you may want to check out the newbie guide:
http://www.mafiascum.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Newbie_Guide

[elvis_knits]

Probably mafia hacking into my computer to make sure that I don't vote...

And the mafia will be happy at any vote for an innocent. It puts them one closer to the victory.

Probably will benefit scum more than us though.

How will learning how to play the game better benefit scum? I don't get it. At all.

Are these jokes? Are you paranoid? What's going on? I'm trying to understand why you keep posting stuff like this. Please explain why everything you post is distancing yourself from the mafia, and trying very hard to implying that you are innocent. You seem to be very upset to have two votes on you, but I won't take it off unless you start making sense.

[elvis_knits]

Yes, she is the prime suspect I think, but I really want to hear more from her before we go to a lynch. I am trying to allow for the possibility that she is just a huge n00b, so I am looking forward to a good explanation of her behavior.

[elvis_knits]

That's three on AsianHa. I'd advise everyone else not to put the last vote on her until we give her some time to respond. You could just

FOS

if you want to make your feelings known.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, I don't understand how her reading the wiki can help the mafia. I'm wondering if her posts are some horrible combination of humor, language barrier, and newbieness. Like the perfect storm.

In any case, it's only the third page, so we can take our time discussing all this.

[elvis_knits]

O RLY?

[elvis_knits]

Ever since I heard of the ripple effect I have been extremly fearful that any of my actions that I take will benefit those trying to kill me.

Who is trying to kill you?

[elvis_knits]

Oh! Are you Chelsea Clinton?? (I hope this doesn't put your life in more jeopardy than it already is.)

[elvis_knits]

Seriously though...is this a medical condition?

[elvis_knits]

Did you know that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't chasing you?

[elvis_knits]

OMG

[elvis_knits]

AsianHa...I hope you realize that you are not helping the town by acting like this.

[elvis_knits]

I'm not sure I believe this paranoia stuff. I mean, if she really is a person with a genuine problem with paranoia where she has to move three times in four months and wakes up to gunshots in the middle of the night, why would she sign up to play a game like mafia? Seems like it would be too stressful a game for somebody who fears for their life every second of every day.

So, this is what I think, either:
A) She thinks she's being funny and is trying to sabotage this game.
B) She got caught as scum and is trying to be confusing.

Nothing else really makes sense to me. If she's afraid of people hacking into her computer, why is she even using the internet?

[elvis_knits]

unvote

Welcome, impossibleroot!

[elvis_knits]

Well, when I heard about the replacement, I figured that AsianHa was a spammer/sabotager and I was going to totally discount all her weird BS posts, thinking that I can't know the scumminess of someone who won't play the game properly.

Now, her replacement says this:

That she was a scummy super-genius who posted some overtly scummy things before punching out of the game completely?

Um, what? She was a scummy supergenius? I wouldn't call her

that

. And it bothers me that you refer to her as "scummy" twice in that sentence, while elsewhere maintaining that she was an "obvious newb."

BTW, I'm not putting a fourth vote on you. You just got here and I don't want to judge you by AsianHa's behavior. You should know that by how I unvoted as soon as I saw there was a replacement. I think it would be good to discuss some more before lynching, and give people who haven't posted much the chance to weigh in on the decision.

[elvis_knits]

Airotcia hasn't posted in four days, so I think that means it's

Mod prod

time.

While it is true that AsianHa and impossibleroot have the same role, it may be unwise to judge impossibleroot by AsianHa's posts. At this point, I have no idea why she was posting the way she did. I have the suspicion that it was purely sabotage, but can't know for sure. We don't know the circumstances of AsianHa's departure. So, personally, I plan to keep AsianHa's scumminess in the back of my mind, but not to vote entirely based on that.

[elvis_knits]

Sabotage? There are people registered to this site that don't seem to be here to play mafia...
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/profile. ... ile&u=1588

[elvis_knits]

Maybe. Personally, I won't do it until I hear from Airotcia and some more from impossibleroot. And I don't mean a quick post to let us know you're alive. It would be helpful for them both to say who they are suspicious of, and why.

[elvis_knits]

what happend next?

I think we don't lynch until Airotcia posts some actual game content.

@impossibleroot -- although I normally don't like people to claim on the first day, I think you should claim if you are a power role. It's better to claim and maybe die tonight, than let us lynch you today.

[elvis_knits]

If you really are a townie, yes, probably two of the people voting for you are the mafia.

But by saying the first person to unvote you is town, you are making it easy for one of the mafia to unvote you in an effort to look like town.

[elvis_knits]

I've never played this game before, but I am beginning to understand onet thing so far.

The only solid information I have is

what I am

.

That fact shold be obvious to you if you are town.

If I understand correctly, the only way that more actual information can be obtained is through what I might refer to as a speculative lynching. Right?

The only way to find out a person's role is through lynching, nightkill, or cop investigation. The odds of having a cop in the game is 50%, so we may not have one. (FYI, odds of having a doc in the game is also 50%, and odds of having both cop and doc is therefore 25%).

When you say "speculative lynching" it sounds sort of random. Though we can't be 100% sure of our lynch, it is worth it to try to lynch someone who is acting in a scummy manner, not just to lynch them for info, i.e. to see what their role is.

If impossibleroot is lynched, or anyone else for that matter, then we'll all have one more piece of information to make decisions, in addition to each knowing which side we are on.

When someone is lynched, we do get certain information about other players. While not entirely definitive, voting patterns do take on a very different light if the lynchee turns up town. What do you mean when you say "in addition to each knowing what side we are on?"

Also, I believe that mafia knows who all other mafia are, right? If I am correct, they have additional information that is unavailable to town.

Yes, the mafia do know who their partner is, and also therefore, that everyone else in the game is town. They do NOT know, however, who, if anybody, has a power role.

Someone has to be lynched eventually, but whom? And how?

It should be done in a manner that will yield as much information as possible.

I think the way that yields the most information is to get everybody posting. With virtually nothing from Airotcia, we can't judge her scumminess very well, if at all.

Now, I am not changing my mind about impossibleroot. Sounds like mafia to this newbie. If we temporarily target someone else, won't we gather more information? After we have more information, we can take another look at impossibleroot and lynch if necessary.

You are always free to pursue more than one person at a time. You can unvote impossibleroot and say IGMEOY (I've got my eye on you!), and explain that you also think so-and-so is scummy too. You can also FOS someone else you find scummy. I think it's good to call out anyone you see making a scummy comment or something. Even if you don't vote for them, you should say they are scummy. That way if mafia kill you tonight, other players might pick up on your comment later.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't get a "pure newb" feeling from AsianHa. I got a pure scum feeling or pure sabotage feeling from her.

If you think she was pure newb, you obviously believe the paranoid stories. I don't.

The fact that you keep saying she was obviously pure newb, makes me want to vote you.

FOS impossibleroot

[elvis_knits]

Elvis and BigAl, thank you for taking to time to enlighten me!

Welcome! Questions are good!

[elvis_knits]

FYI:
I've been the ONLY one saying we shouldn't judge you by AsianHa's actions, and I have held off voting for you.

[elvis_knits]

impossibleroot -- you've already said that there are probably two scum on your bandwagon. If you really are town, and there are two scum on your bandwagon, then it is logical that I can't be scum. Also, if you are town with three votes on you and both mafia

aren't

already on your wagon, I think they would have finished you off by now, as you've been one from a lynch since Monday.

[elvis_knits]

impossibleroot -- you are misreading and misrepresenting my actions. Misreading can be a difference of opinion, but when you say things like "elvis_knits never voted AsianHa," you are blatantly lying. Check out post#28 where I vote AsianHa. I kept my vote on AsianHa from post#28, until post#75 where I write:

unvote

Welcome, impossibleroot!

As you can see, I unvoted as soon as I heard there was a replacement and was ready to give you a chance to play the game. Other people did not unvote you. TripmyWire and DrippingGoofball didn't unvote you, and Graken even put another one on you before you even spoke. I have no idea why you don't think any of THEM are scum, and instead are focusing your attention on me.

We know there are two scum out there, so who is your second choice for scum?

There is no way to clear me, is there? I think the evidence that AsianHa was a newb townie is pretty clear, but I'm clearly not convincing anyone. So I want to stir things up a bit before I get lynched (or not).

Graken, TripmyWire, DrippingGoofball, why are your votes still on me?

Here's why I am voting for elvis_knits:

Post 29:

Hmmm...or are you trying to say that TripMyWire is voting for a townie when he votes for you?
In that case I think your statement is slightly less scummy. Still scummy though, IMO because TripMyWire said it was a random vote. There's really no reason to get too upset about a random vote. And overreacting when people vote for you is pretty scummy.

This strikes me as a more experienced player attempting to place everyone's doubt (and votes) on an obvious newb who was not clear in a post.

Later, she backed off, but still ended the post (Post 33) with:

P.S. Yes, bigAl, she has mentioned she is a townie a little too much. Seems forced to me.

Not coming on too strong, but still getting people to question AsianHa.

Of course, AsianHa jumps in with this:

And why is the town pressuring an innocent in the form of votes and constant calling of "scummy".
And what does "scummy" mean?

-- putting me in the awkward position when I took over of having to claim (as she pretty much claimed anyway).

Elvis_knits is quick to respond with:

Also, constantly saying that you are innocent, and that we should know you are innocent, is pretty scummy to me. This is because everyone will SAY they are innocent whether they are or not.

Now someone who says that they are innocent is suddenly accused of being 'pretty scummy'

You are missing the point. AsianHa kept telling us that we should know that she is innocent. I tried to tell her that townspeople don't know anything for sure. It's only the mafia who know who is innocent for sure. And yes, someone who says they are innocent in every post, looks sort of scummy to me. When I kept pointing out this scummy behavior to her, my hope was that she would stop acting this way if she was town. I was trying to let her know what looks scummy and what does not.

AsianHa proceeds to say some weird things, and elvis_knits is helpful, pointing out the newbie guide. After another weird response (language barrier?), this comes out from EK:

Are these jokes? Are you paranoid? What's going on? I'm trying to understand why you keep posting stuff like this. Please explain why everything you post is distancing yourself from the mafia, and trying very hard to implying that you are innocent. You seem to be very upset to have two votes on you, but I won't take it off unless you start making sense.

All AsianHa had been doing is speaking the truth, being very open as a newb. Constantly referring to the Mafia as 'them' and herself as innocent would look scummy in an experienced player, but it seems pretty clearly newb to me.

She should have known better at that point, as I had been pointing out the scumminess in her behavior for a while. I know that it is easy for a newb to make mistakes and that they are just learning the rules, and that is why I was trying to help AsianHa by pointing out her scumminess.

From there on out, until the replacement, elvis_knits practically bent over backward to be understanding of the AsianHa situation, while still leading the discussion in pointing out the she was the Prime Suspect.

While never voting for AH herself, EK seems to be running the show.

This is where you make a huge mistake. I was voting AsianHa, for a very long time, and anyone who wants to check out post#28 can see that you are lying.

Somewhat like me, perhaps, it's an extreme case: either EK is very crafty scum or she is a quite charitable and well-reasoned townie. And either I am a deranged mafia who calls way too much attention to himself or a townie trying unorthodox tactics to dig himself out of a whole (in one of the most bizarre mafia games I've ever read!).

What is this "unorthodox tactic" you are trying? Do a slam job on someone who is trying to help you?

So you think I am either crafty scum or charitable townie. Well I think you are either scum trying to frame me so I get lynched tomorrow, or townie who won't listen to reason. If you are really town, two of the people voting for you right now are probably scum. I can't see a mafia member waiting this long to finish you off. If I were mafia, I would have never unvoted you! Nobody else unvoted you, so it would hardly have looked suspicous for me to keep my vote on you. You would have been dead a long time ago. If you can't see the logic in this, I will finish you off.

P.S. Nice avatar.

[elvis_knits]

Oops, my grammar slipped at the end of that rant --- dig myself out of that *hole ... out of *the rest of you... sheesh.

Anyway, experienced players, how common is a vote: 'no lynch' majority on the first day?

Anyone who no-lynches on the first day of a newbie game is asking to lose the game. No-lynch is only helpful in certain situations. In my last newbie, we used it on D3 (I think) when we knew we had a cop and a doc and wanted the cop to do another investigation. (In that game, bigAl was the cop and I was scum )

[elvis_knits]

These are some things I find suspicious besides impossibleroot:

Graken: putting a third vote on impossibleroot as soon as he replaced. He said in the post that he believed it was the first vote on impossibleroot (thinking votes would reset when a replacement joined?). Understandable that he thought voting would reset, but once he noticed his error, I would expect him to unvote, or atleast to say "whoops, I didn't realize it was the third, but I'm sticking to it anyway because he's scummy." But he didn't unvote or say anything about his mistake.

DrippingGoofball:

Impossibleroot, you're good, you're very good, you're begininning to make me feel guilty.

Maybe elvisknits is next.

But you're going to be first!

This post gives me the feeling that DrippingGoofball is beginning to get excited at the prospect of lynching a townie and having a second townie set up to take the fall tomorrow. If I follow his reasoning that I would be responsible for lynching impossibleroot, the only reason for me to be lynched tomorrow is if impossibleroot is innocent. If impossibleroot turns out to be scum, I'm not looking suspicious at all.

I'm also sort of suspicious of them because of this:

DG made a post talking about gathering more "information." Then Graken said:

DrippingGoofball, are you suggesting that we keep targeting other players and make them roleclaim as well until we get a satisfactory number of roleclaims? That only assists the mafia is figuring out what players have what roles and if they exist. That sounds a little like a mafia ploy to get the cop and doc to roleclaim.

DG didn't

say

he wanted people to roleclaim. It could be read that way, however. In this situation I think either DG

was

trying to get players to roleclaim, or that Graken was trying to throw suspicion on DG by making it

seem

like he wanted a roleclaim.

Now I am leaning toward Graken. He's not back until Monday, but one vote won't kill him.

vote Graken

[elvis_knits]

P.S. I just called DrippingGoofball "he" a bunch of times! Sorry! I noticed DG is a SHE. Man, I hate when people do that to me, so...sorry!

[elvis_knits]

I placed my vote on you cause I thought they were reset and wanted conversation. To answer Elvis, I didn't say anything about it, cause it was cleared up by

Halo

.

Do you mean MeMe? I still think that you would rethink your vote when it turned out to be the

third

and not the first.

So my not responding to that post makes me look suspicious? This is really starting to look like Elvis could be on IR's team and trying to get him out of the situation he's in.

If I were mafia and IR was my partner, the smart thing for me to do would have been for me to finish him off, setting myself up to look very townish tomorrow. That's what I did in my last game (Newbie 164, I think was the number).

I'm not taking my vote off of IR. I still believe he's are mafia. More so as time goes on. He's just blatantly jumping on bandwagons whever he can now to get anyone lynched.

Maybe. I am not infallible. And as I have said, I still think IR is suspicious. I just don't think he's the only one.

[elvis_knits]

unvote

Graken, what made you think to spell out "COP" in your first post?

[elvis_knits]

vote tripmywire

for keeping a third vote on a claimed cop.

Also, BTW if Graken is lying, the real cop should conterclaim him. I AM NOT THE COP.

[elvis_knits]

Wow. You guys vote a lot. I'm more of a conservative voter (have I voted yet?).

Last game you were all crazy, putting third votes on people for no reason. I'm trying to think that your change in behavior is because you are now older and wiser, but I have found it a bit odd that you haven't voted anyone yet.

[elvis_knits]

Still, will any of you be *surprised* when I'm revealed as a townie? It's my only real horse, and I've beaten it to death!

I won't be totally suprised if IR turns up townie. I still think AsianHa was replaced because she was sabotaging the game. But who knows. I may be really really wrong, and AsianHa/IR are just simple, newbie scum.

I still like my vote on TripMyWire, but if IR turns up scum, it will pretty much clear him in my mind.

I'd like to see bigAl vote before the day is over. I think it's good to be careful in this game, but not placing one real vote (I am excluding random votes) after 10 pages seems sort of extreme. Voting is a townie's only real weapon, so why not use it?

[elvis_knits]

not yet...it's twilight until Meme posts

[elvis_knits]

Good luck town!

[elvis_knits]

Good game all!

Good thing you killed me biAl -- you scummy non-voter-unless-it's-the-hammer, you! I totally thought you were scum after you put the hammer on IR, but unfortunately I believed Graken was the cop. Funny thing was I probably would have believed Graken and voted for DGB on D2! Even though town lost, I think it was pretty awesome how you guys lynched Graken. Good call!

[elvis_knits]

Oh, I almost forgot: MeMe, what was the deal with AsianHa? Was she really that paranoid? If so, I may have scarred her for life with my prodding.

[elvis_knits]

Punk! You realize I have never won a newbie game?!

bigAl=my nemesis