Newbie 1041 - So Cold Newbies (OVER!)

[DemonHybrid]

Hello! Welcome to Mafia!

I'm DemonHybrid, and I'm the IC of this game. ICs are players who sort of know the ropes and volunteer to play in Newbie games to help the newer folk out with how to play, strategies, roles, etc.

If you want to know more about what ICs are do and what they're expected to do, read this (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC) Wikipedia page. While you're at it, feel free to look through the Wiki; some amazing information can be found there, such as the role list (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Roles), Commonly used abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... reviations), term glossary (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Glossary), Newbie guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... wbie_Guide) and others.

I will be the go-to guy for mafia theory. If I'm not available to answer something, the SEs (who I believe are moose and Ibarra, though I may be mistaken on Ibarra) are here to help you out with whatever you need. However, for clarity on information that you cannot disclose to me (such as your role, the use of QuickTopics, whether something is okay to do in regards to a scum play), please PM the moderator, as he is the only one with full knowledge of the roles and would not mind to clear things up in the realm of fairness.

A few things I want you guys to do first:

1. Read the rules on the first page of this thread. For the most part, the rules that every moderator uses is roughly the same, but I can guarantee you that there are a few subtle differences that may be -very- important, so make sure you do a read-through.
2. Do not lie if you are town and do not fakeclaim. It does a lot more bad than good. However, if you are scum (mafia or bad third party roles), the goal is to lie and help your faction deceive the town, so go crazy if you are scum.
3. Do not claim until you have the absolute need to. 99% of the time, this means when you are L-1 (or Lynch-1, 1 being the number of votes needed to lynch you. L-3 means you have 3 votes until the person is lynched, for example, etc)
4. Do not vote No-Lynch unless the odds of you winning increase with your No-Lynch. This is most commonly used when the game is in MyLo (Mislynch and Lose, commonly happens when a mislynch on a townie during the day and a killed townie at night leaves the game tied with the number of mafia = to the number of town, and that means a town loss) as opposed to LyLo (You must lynch scum or you will lose. No-Lynches will just throw the game away).
5. Self-voting is bad....for the most part. A few points about self-voting:
-NEVER Self-vote as town, no matter how frustrated you are. There is absolutely no benefit to this kind of play.
-You MAY or MAY NOT Self-hammer (Hammer meaning the vote deciding a lynch...think of a courtroom gavel) as scum in order to confuse the town and deny them information...but never self-hammer if you are the last mafia left, and use the self-hammer SPARINGLY. If there's a good chance that you may survive, do NOT self-hammer; instead, try to talk your way out of your lynch.
6. Be as active as you can. Post at least once a day at the very least as a requirement, but aim for higher. I usually like to check MafiaScum once every 2 or 3 hours and reply to the games that I'm in to keep myself up-to-date and informed.

So, as we are in RVS (or Random Voting Stage) right now, I will

Vote: Kadersalad

for making me hungry.

[DemonHybrid]

First a few questions for everyone:
1) Which do you like playing as more? Town or Mafia?
2) Do you believe in Lynch all Liers?
3) Lynch all Lurkers?

1. I prefer playing town.
2. I believe in Lynch all Liars unless it's a person who's known for lying about claims for a good reason.
3. When there's no one else on my scumlist, yes.

[DemonHybrid]

Considering the day doesn't end until December 30, I'm going to hold off on making a vote at this point. We've got three weeks for someone to tip their hand.

Most people like to vote early and often in the game to get discussion going. A public declaration of not voting during RVS will usually throw some negative publicity your way for stalling RVS and wanting misinformation to continue.

Just remember: The point of RVS is to leave it as soon as possible. Do not take any votes to heart during this stage, do not overreact, or people will lynch you double-time.

[DemonHybrid]

I believe you may "UnVote: Insert playername here"

Correct. Please bold your unvotes as well, or else the moderator will miss them.

You are allowed to vote and unvote as many times as possible.

[DemonHybrid]

I would also like to point out that, although Ibarra's vote seems like it's NOT RVS, it is in the fact that it has nothing to do with this game, and each game is considered completely separate, with the exception of meta arguments (which can be arguably flawed).

I am currently looking at aaah400 for taking that vote seriously.

@aaah400: Is making the first accusation bad to you, and why?

Preview edit:

Finally I agree that random voting in the first day is A SIN. Usually somebody can turn out suspicious with enough talking and logical deduction.

Games cannot start without random voting in the vast majority of mafia games.

RVS ends at different times for everyone.

Though you may be voting seriously, the other players have to vote seriously for RVS to fully end. There is no avoiding that 99% of the time.

The point of random voting is to provoke discussion and trick inexperience scums into making a slip.

Nul is correct. Mafia is usually

not

caught on Day 1, but the majority of mafia lynches on Day 1 come from slips in RVS.

[DemonHybrid]

As a followup, I encourage everyone to create a bandwagon early Day 1, but to NOT put the player being wagoned to L-1.

This does a couple of things:

1. Said player may crack and show signs of scumslips.
2. A player backing out from a wagon may have scum motivation for doing so...
3. ...on the flipside, a player encouraging a wagon too hastily may have scum motivation in doing so.
4. RVS ends almost immediately in any regard.

Not putting the player at L-1 does a few things:

1. Allows the player freedom to talk without being pressured to claim
2. Quickhammers won't happen, therefore making the lynch an effective roulette spin
3. Misinformation can come from those jumping off the wagon at L-1.

The best way to effectively tell if someone is or is not mafia is to look at their motivation for their actions.

For example, the regular vanilla townie will do their best to try not to get in the middle while giving their opinions as well. A mafioso will try their hardest to not draw attention to themselves in order to blend in with this crowd. So....say a person makes a string of aggressive accusations against a player. They use harsh language and they try to bully the player around. The other player doesn't post as often.

1. What scum motivation does the bully have to say what he's saying?
2. What town motivation does the bully have to say what he's saying?
3. What is his projected end product of such an action?
4. On a

very subjective

note: Does his meta match up with his actions?

Be careful when using #4, as one person's actions in one game doesn't necessarily mean they will repeat those same actions as the same alignment on a different game.

[DemonHybrid]

@demonhybrid

oh so im not allowed to be serious then? im just saying
usually first people who comment are mafia
and y do u say that? is it because ur safe and trying to cover up yourself and make me take the accuse? xD

You're allowed to be serious, but I'm failing to see the scum motivation behind being the first to accuse someone. I've seen many townies start off with a decent case from post one. Can you prove that scum is more likely to throw the first stone?

And while I'm keeping my eye on you, I'm far from accusing you of anything. Not yet, at least.

[DemonHybrid]

@demonhybrid

im keeping my eye on u too
u might be trying to save ibarra since he is mafia and u r too
hmmm... XD we shall see

I would have said the same thing for anyone else if they had accused someone for something first, even you, if the same argument was used against you. I see your point, however misguided it might be.



Also, as an aside for everyone, do not take elite status as consideration for voting someone. For example, don't

not

vote me just because I have more experience, or seem to know what I'm talking about. Anyone could be scum.

[DemonHybrid]

An interesting comment. Can you give one situation when lying can be used to find mafia. More often, lying costs the town. (e.g. claiming a power role as VT). Remember that this is a newbie game, the only power roles we could have is a Doctor or a Cop.

Perhaps as a townie you could falsely state that you are a cop in order to confuse the mafia and increase the chance of the mafia making a mistake and killing the townie rather than the cop. It is also likely that the mafia will claim to be a townie to cover their identity rather than a specific job such as a doctor or a cop. The lying from a townie would be especially beneficial if the cop has happened to check the role of the falsely claiming townie before and it would provide the cop a shield while he goes on checking someone else who may be the mafia. But I do see the problem that it could backfire and confuse the town instead, and also the fact that the lying would not work if there is no cop but a doctor instead. I acknowledge this fact and take back what I have said.

Yeah, lying as town has an effect to get the liar lynched due to a role flip during the majority of games. A counterclaim will surely out the real cop, in the example you've used above, and still reinforce the original claimer's lynch.

Best thing to do is to just never lie as town unless you deem it absolutely necessary. An overwhelming amount of players choose to counterclaim over keeping quiet about a fakeclaim. You might find a veteran that will stay quiet, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[DemonHybrid]

looking means suspecting? I will ask this kind of questions many times, I guess...

It's my way of saying "I have my eye on you". You have a very very light suspicion but it's nothing to vote over, and it certainly doesn't make up a case.

Following your suggestion, wagonners are welcome Vote: DemonHybrid. Reasons: none, just placing my vote randomly by answering a provocation.

As a comment, I do not think the bandwagon per se does anything. The bandwagon is just the consequence of something happening...

The bandwagon itself does not, but the reactions due to the bandwagon can sometimes be extremely valuable. Just remember not to put a person at L-1 on page 4 or 5.

You are far means you have no reason or you only have intuitions? Do you typically fight against your intuitions or you trust them mostly?

I only have intuitions. It's either hit or miss when you have a feeling without logic backing it, as aaah's notification on Ibarra throwing the first stone could be town or scum motivated.

I gotta be honest, I'm not entirely sure I understand the lynching rules.

Is there a definite lynching everyday?

In

this

game, as per Rule #3 under the During the Day... section, not reaching a majority when deadline hits will result in a no-lynch. That rule is up to the mod. I've seen plenty of games that force a lynch (the person in the lead with votes will be lynched at deadline) and I've seen plenty of games that force a no-lynch. It would be argued that forcing a no-lynch makes people think more logically and feel more compelled to vote someone, so it's important to keep that in mind when choosing a person to be lynched.

[DemonHybrid]

I mean, I honestly don't know how to enlighten anyone.

I originally wanted to refrain from voting. I was convinced otherwise, so I arbitrarily picked Salad. The way I understand this game is that the person with the most votes at the end of the day gets lynched. At least, that's how I've always understood Mafia. I picked someone for no real reason other than the fact that I was convinced it would be best. I'm still more than willing to change my vote if other evidence shows up, but as its the first day, I don't honestly expect it to.

I was under the impression that a tie was the only thing to prevent a lynching, but then there was all this talk about L-1 and L-3, which I have no earthly idea what it means.

So right now, I am a very confused random voter who has talked entirely too much.

L-1 and L-3, meaning Lynch - (minus) # (number), means the amount of votes that are needed to cause a lynch....for example:

We have 9 people, meaning the majority number for lynch is 5.

At the start of the game when no one is voted, everyone is a L-5, meaning if you vote anyone 5 more times, that causes a lynch.

Lets say I am voted twice. I would be at L-3, meaning I would need 3 more votes to cause my lynch.

As for your vote, I was the one that suggested that voting is harmless during RVS, and you should not be attacked for that. This reinforces my Kadersalad vote and turns it serious, as he is putting you in a loaded situation by saying that your random vote is scummy. I have now left RVS.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, apologies for not getting back sooner, my internet was just restored and I don't want to mess around with tags on my phone

Preview edit: Crazy, he's saying that his vote on Kader (as in the act of voting itself) is what he felt would be best. It was a "Should I vote someone randomly?" vs a "Should I not vote someone randomly?" dilemma for him, not the person who he was voting.

[DemonHybrid]

My question is different. I am asking precisely WHY the person. Because the reason he suggests is merely that salad was having the same behavior he had had. Since it is not an ironic random vote but kind of a "the only stupid reason i have to random vote someone", I want to know why SUCH A REASON, and why SUCH A PLAYER. It surprises me. Does it surprise you or not?

Not exactly. Lets go back and review his vote on Kader.

Awesome. In that case, I'll go ahead a

Vote: Kadersalad

for disliking random votes.

Subject to change, of course.

He then says this:

Awesome. In that case, I'll go ahead a Vote: Kadersalad for disliking random votes.

If I understand correctly, you randomly vote a player for showing your same behavior? I did not read any self-irony in your message, and thus, it is a bit surprising to me. Can you ellaborate?

I'm random-voting for Kadersalad. I don't have a problem with random-voting. Because I absolutely nothing to go on, I'm voting for the person who doesn't like random voting.

You're trying too hard.

And I would agree with him; You are trying too hard to look for the connections. Here, tyler may have chosen a poor reason for a random vote (as it looks semi-serious on the surface), but take a look at the irony and the humor in it. I told tylerjarvis that random voting is a good habit to get into, and he takes what I said and turns it around as a joke.

I would not look too much into his vote. Not every random vote has to be "Vote: Player because they like unicorns" or something similar.

[DemonHybrid]

I picked a person and then picked a "reason".

P.S. Thanks for all the clarification Demon!

did you pick the person for his avatar? for his words? for...
did you pick the person because Demon "adviced" you to vote and he was already voting salad??

He already said it was random, meaning it had no serious connotation behind it. Perhaps he saw my post on bandwagoning, perhaps he saw his name before he voted, perhaps he was following my example, but the fact of the matter is, his vote has no serious meaning behind it. He found nothing logically wrong with Kadersalad, he just wanted to kick off conversation after clarifying to himself that votes can be changed.

The fact that it's Kader doesn't matter.

[DemonHybrid]

If he is conciously making an ironic vote that consists of voting the person who has his past behavior, why is he unable to say this? His explanations sound different. Until I understand why he voted salad, I may continue asking, because that was surprising to me.

I don't get what you mean by "surprising". It's ironic, but why does his vote surprise you?

1. I want to know which perhaps is. Is that a problem?
2. the fact that it's kader matters to me, according to my reasoning. I want to know which perhaps is...

1. Not at all...but..
2. ..he's going to say the same thing. It was just a random person. I believe it was a random person, perhaps influenced by my vote of Kader, but in that same light, if I had voted someone else, and he voted who I voted for, you would be saying the same thing.

How can you be "lying" about voting for a random person, especially when everyone else finds it random?

Picking out lies is hard.

What we need is a say from the other five people.

Agreed.

What stops a mafia SE or IC from intentionally influencing a Newer payer's choices to create an advantage over the town.

(This might just be crazy thought)

Nothing. That's something everyone needs to decide to do for themselves.

[DemonHybrid]

Is that better, aaah?

Much better. Avatars go as far as to define who a person is, so I encourage everyone who does not have an avatar to pick one up.

[DemonHybrid]

Haha, what I meant by that was, people take one look at an avatar and it kind of defines who they are on the forums.

I had an Ein avatar (the dog from Cowboy Bebop) so I was associated with that for a while.

People with girly avatars will be referred to as women. My friend AGar had an avatar with an Asian person in it, so they thought he was asian. That sort of thing.

Preview edit: You can vote anyone at anytime for any reason, and unvote them for the same.

[DemonHybrid]

@Demon:

1. Might you explain to me the exact reasons for which you consider Salad suspicious? Thanks.
2. After explaining them, do you think the reasons are compatible with the fact that you encouraged newbies to wagon early in the game (and thus, with minor observations)?

1. Originally, I voted Kader randomly. When I said that I was out of RVS, it was because he voted for the same reason why you're suspecting tyler. I could easily say that you're scum for the same thing, but I think the vote shows that he's a little too eager to jump on the tyler suspicion as opposed to your constant questioning (which is a good thing). Now, I have further reason to suspect him; his jump onto you. Before his jump onto your wagon, he agreed and constantly pushed the tylerjarvis "random vote" fiasco of a case...and now, all of a sudden, he's okay with the lynch of the person who he's agreeing with.

2. Wagoning early,

in RVS

, is a great tool to help end it. Players should not wagon for the hell of it outside of RVS; they should wagon because they find the person legitimately scummy.

My vote will stay where it is at the time being. I don't think you're case is valid, CrazyQuestions, but I think you're being sincere with it and have some more to learn.

[DemonHybrid]

Maybe slightly, and I apologize. Sometimes, players need to know that there's nothing to gain by beating a dead horse. If you find a player constantly repeating himself in a defense, it's a good sign that he's telling the truth.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Apologies were not needed. I understand the dynamics of this game and it is fine...I made my comment with a smile.
2. According to your records, you have played many games in the forum. Before labelling my case as fiasco and Tyler as a dead horse, would you like to go over all your games, check all random votes and tell me if some of the players were TOTALLY UNABLE to say why they picked up that player?
3. I do not think is a dead horse. However, even in that hypothetical case, it seems you have updated your suspicions on salad due to my beating of a dead horse. There is always something to win if you explore and explore...players who do not make investigations surely do not generate information.

1. Alright, sorry regardless.
2. I can tell you without looking at any of my former games that people pick random votes and aren't able to explain in a serious tone why they picked that person. It's a "random" vote for a reason.
3. I would agree, but exploring means that you are looking for new information, while the argument against tyler is the same thing over and over. Tyler is telling the truth here.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm starting to feel like CrazyQuestions is becoming a real hindrance to Investigations, but so far, I do not think "over-analyzing" is enough to make her scum, But Now, I am just using my intuition.

You don't think that CrazyQuestions is scum, but you vote for her?

I do not believe there is enough open information to ensure little miss riddler is scummy, but I do have have a feeling that her constant long and deep comments are a bit bold. If she is not mafia, then she would be a perfect target for Noob scum that thinks she sounds smart, and she doesn't strike me has someone who would take that chance. I have hope lost in keeping myself alive since I am inept defender against any accusations and my arguments are flawed. Well, guess what? I apparently suck at mafia compared to everyone else.

No one sucks at mafia. Everyone has room to improve, everyone starts out somewhere. The only way you can suck at mafia is to not realize you have a problem and take pride in being a VI, and even those people change their minds after some of the backlash.

I have to agree with Ibarra that your statement, in this situation, on Crazy, is indicative of you being scum due to the inconsistencies in scumhunting. If you find someone anti-town or a hindrance to the game, that is completely different than finding them scummy.

Preview edit: You're fine, regardless. It just takes time.

[DemonHybrid]

I have to let all of you know that, even if you get killed or lynched or get an argument shut down, don't give up on mafia. It takes time to build up logic skills, to get to know the players on this site and to know how to act at all times. Basically, don't let one bad game kill your career.

[DemonHybrid]

I would agree that Kader is our best bet and the most likely Day 1 lynch. Hop aboard the train.

[DemonHybrid]

The information from Kader's flip will tell us a lot about Crazy in regards to their relationship.

For example, we can tell, if Kader is mafia, whether Crazy was buddying with Kader, distancing herself from Kader, or having a moderate relationship with him. On the flip side, we can figure out just as much information if he flips town.

You'll be able to make a much clearer conscious decision about Crazy tomorrow.

KaderSalad, we'd like you to claim.

[DemonHybrid]

DemonHybrid, I'm also surpised at your general acceptance of what's currently happening. Remember, there's no need to rush yet.

tyler is just as close to go as Kader is for today. It's good to know that, eventually, while anyone could be voted and lynched, the day CAN wind down to an ultimatum between two people. I'd be careful with voting for him, as there is nothing behind his actions that is scum motivated. Just careful newbie play, which I like.

Also, I'm not encouraging a fast lynch. I'm encouraging the pressure on Kader for his vote-switching with no valid basis. I should have warned everyone not to hammer him, so I thank you for catching that.

Do not vote Kadersalad once more, or he will be lynched with no way to unvote.

We still need some more analysis and information on him.

Also, no matter how close someone is to a lynch, there is always a way out of it, even if you are at L-1 and up against the wall. The information will do us good, I think.

[DemonHybrid]

Shoot, I don't know what I'm doing here. I got the impression that a decision was being made and I needed to jump on board or be an outsider in this. And from other games I've played, if Kader winds up being mafia and I stick with my vote for CrazyQuestions, or abstain from voting for Kader at all, that's generally considered suspicious.

Just last week I got lynched in a game (a "real life" one) because I didn't change my vote to the bandwagon vote against a mafioso.

I don't certainly don't want to be the hammer that votes too soon and gets Kader killed. But at the same time, I don't want to be the suspect that sat this one out and saved the life of (or nearly saved the life of) a mafioso.

Aye, everyone does a lot of this decision making in mafia, and a lot of it every game. I like that you're thinking this through as well, and this way.

Anyway, we're fine as long as no one hammers him before we've had a long discussion about his play so far after he checks in.

[DemonHybrid]

@moose200x
What's wrong with you o.o

^This

That was no way to act.

[DemonHybrid]

The final vote is called the hammer, and once the hammer hits, my fate is sealed.

Correct. Then we are revealed his role, then it goes to night. Mafia kills, then it goes to day again where we vote.

[DemonHybrid]

Reply sometime tomorrow. Finals are destroying me left and right. I hope you guys can understand.

[DemonHybrid]

I do not need a serious tone. Why did you choose your random person ? do you remember??

...because his name made me hungry.

I dislike this. You are basically happy with kader as a lynch, since you tend to think NOTHING has happened in this game apart from kader's scum hints. You have not commented seriously on nobody. We have a player who never participated...Nobody did summaries on all the players, we are just starting day 1.

No way, are you an experienced player and rushing this way??

Like I said, I'm far from rushing. It's good to push someone to the limit after a few pages to see how they will react and what information they can give the town. Kader has never been lynched; I'm not encouraging his lynch THIS very second, so why am I rushing?

We do not want kader to claim. YOU WANT KADER TO CLAIM. AND YOU ARE ALREADY VOTING HIM.

Someone already said this, but when someone is at the edge like that, it's customary for them to claim. It's a little trickier with the L-1 person being a power role, but this doesn't seem to be the case with Kader.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Despite the long list of posts he has sent, his contributions are rather limited. Most of the posts have been null, creating an image of participation that is far away from being true. He has not attempted to attack/investigate any player in the game. He has just considered salad, and has not deepened into the reasons/motives for Salad actions.

2. He suggested twice that early/initial bandwagons were better without L-1. However, the first bandwagon that happened, he happily accepted it at L-1. Not only that, he promoted the claim immediately, even being the first wagon and having not much information about people. Later, however, he has suggested that he is "far" from promoting a lynch. If this is so, why would he promote an L-1/claim situation? Especially, given his comments on L-1...

3. He has being buddying with tyler all the game (and with other players at some moments). However, despite defending him, he has considered tyler a candidate for lynch (although he discourages that lynch). He has set up dichotomies (tyler vs kader) or second day issues happily, without any serious analysis on the game.

1. My posts have been nothing but content. Maybe you should re-read. I've given enough reasons on why Salad should be pushed/possibly lynched without adding in fluff.

2. The bandwagon that I'm accepting is hardly early...you can't tell the difference between serious votes and RVS votes. RVS bandwagons are not good at L-1, but serious ones are, especially when they are valid. Also, a claim may SAVE the life of the person being wagoned. You are completely backwards in this game.

3. I consider tyler a candidate a lynch because it's true; you guys are pushing him for a lynch. Truthfully, to me, either Tyler (who doesn't deserve it) and Kader are the only ones even close to being lynched (at least at the time of me posting that) and the ultimatum should be between those two. You're beginning to be a little suspect, not by me, but by others in this game, so you've entered the mix.

I'm still not sure why you think my posts have no content, but yours have been close to being filled to the brim with fluff and dead horse questions (like "Tyler's vote is random? Then WHY did you vote him? Why?"....well duh, it's a random vote), so lets try not to be hypocrites here.

[DemonHybrid]

A lot of people seem to be suspecting me for "buddying" with Tyler. I am merely noting that it's logically not a good bet to support his lynch and I think he's a town read. A lot of his actions show low scum motivation and a scumhunting newbie, in fact, he reminds me entirely of me my first game and I was a VT.

@Crazy: I don't see how considering you "in the mix" when voting is concerned because you are. Some people are voting you, I don't see how that's putting you in a negative light. I, for one, find you slightly townish, but you're very misguided in every view.

[DemonHybrid]

well seems to me we have different opinions towards these two players, we should see what happens as the game progresses
but i do believe Demon helps Tyler more than other players :/

I don't help Tyler more than anyone else. I just find that the suspicion against him is entirely ridiculous.

[DemonHybrid]

well i think u do help Tyler more than anyone else in my point of view.
Who agrees?

I just think he's my strongest town read at the moment; of course I'm going to defend him because I think the case against him is entirely without merit.

I believe I said before that if you or anyone else were attacked for their random vote after being pressured into it, I'd call it a loaded situation and defend, because it's a delicate situation for scum to take advantage of.

[DemonHybrid]

1. He is not attacked for this reason. You might say that I put pressure on him not for random voting, but to explain why he did choose one person in particular. But, I am not voting him. You might even say that Kadersalad attacked tyler for him random vote (probably following my hot pressure, and especially because tyler had chosen him in that "random process"). But, Kadersalad is not voting him.

It's the pressure itself that was without merit. Now, the topic of me defending him has come up, so I'm explaining why I did.

2. Thus, he is voting tyler and why? Not precisely the image you are giving. There are two people voting tyler, and it is not for the reasons you suggest in your message. Here:

Not quite sure I understand this. I'm not voting Tyler.

That sounds like a curious defence. You put tyler in the candidate list to be lynched, creating the image, salad or tyler...This, for sure, does not help tyler. It helps your ass, I would say. I would not like to be defended by you.

I'm just stating the facts. A lot of mafia games wind down to "this person" or "that" near the end of the day. You'll find a lot of players saying "There's no use for voting for anyone else, because they're simply just not going to be lynched, so put your vote in a useful place". It has nothing to do with me defending my position.

To my eyes, he has taken two newbies, he is defending one as a clear town read and attacking the other as a clear scum read, for not very different behaviors in the game. He has not created a case on salad, and he was happy with L-1 and claim in the first wagon of the game, despite his initial recommendations on the initial wagons. He has not considered any other player. He has not defended actively someone he considers townie. He established a dichotomy on two players and set up or suggested lynches for day 2. HANG THIS GUY !!!!

Yeah, hang on for a minute, there.

Here's my Kadersalad case: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p2670577

Nothing has changed. I don't like his vote switch. And I suspect him much more than anyone else. Even you, and your case doesn't make too much sense analytically.

You know, you talk about how I have no content, but many of you don't realize that many people

do not

like wall posts. You can post just as strongly with fewer words.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, I described with quotes how demon constructed the dichotomy tyler vs salad, thus, not helping you. He just says you are a townie, with a very blind read. And he is forgetting that you are accused of similar things to those he is accusing salad of. And he is not deepening a lot in analyzing your behavior and salad, or comparing them.

Actually, by saying "Most lynches end up in an ultimatum, this one seems to be heading towards tyler vs Kader, so please, if you have to choose, lynch Kader cause of this", I find that it is helping him a lot while still looking at reality.

Pleasing people is a very scummy behavior.

If you were to look at my meta, you'd notice that I do not help anyone out for any reason. I'm the IC here, so you'll find that I have a slightly more helper attitude than I do in 99% other games. What you call pleasing people is what I would call reinforcing. You can say "This behavior is right for mafia" without outright stating it.

[DemonHybrid]

Ibarra and aaah400 are voting for him. I have him in my list of suspects. Reasons have been described along (though I would like better analysis), and you havent made any summary of Salad and Tyler to justify why the first is a good candidate and the second is not. You just call him newbie and townie...

Salad is a good candidate because of fishy votehopping and backing down when pressured. Tyler had a crappy case pushed up against him (Stuff like "WHY IS KADER A RANDOM VOTE?", you know, the case you decided to push against him) and people just built on that. There's really not much else I can go into. Nobody likes wall posts.

When you started this dichotomy, we were closer to the beginning of the day than to the end of the day. Indeed, there are yet 10 days to the end of the day. Where is the end of the day ???? It was the first wagon of the day !!!!!!!!
Do not fool us

Again, just stating the facts. To me, it looked like either one was going to be lynched in very quick fashion, So I said "If we have to lynch someone, then it'd be Salad, not tyler. Here are the reasons why."

Wow, you call that a case?

A case doesn't have to be long. A lifetime of cleaning up for a mistake does not change the mistake. He made a fishy vote, and I've seen nothing to prove Kader's innocence. Tyler has done all he can to explain his thought process, and I believe him. It's really not a hard concept, Questions.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, please explain to me your thought process when you said that I was voting for Tyler. What made you think that?

[DemonHybrid]

Could you tell us specifically what actions make him look town?

Sure. Hell, I can give an ISO.

Hi All!

I'm new to this whole mafia thing, usually only playing live games with my youth group, but I'm pretty excited about these long term games.

To answer the questions,

1. I like both. I like the sneaking around of Mafia, and I like the logic and uncertainty of Town. Although the nights can get pretty lonely for just a vanilla townsperson. So if I'm on the town's side, I prefer to be the Doc or the Cop. Either way, I enjoy the game.

2. I guess I don't see much of a reason for the town to lie. So if they're lying, it's a pretty safe bet that they're Mafia. It's not enough evidence for me to say that everyone who lies should automatically be lynched, but it certainly would put someone at the top of my radar.

3. I'd prefer to lynch a lurker than shooting blindly. But I'd prefer to wait it out a bit over a blind vote or shooting a lurker. There may be good reasons to "lurk." If someone doesn't have anything in particular to add to the conversation, but is gaining information about the different players, then by all means lurk away. Just don't be surprised if you come across as slightly suspicious.

Considering the day doesn't end until December 30, I'm going to hold off on making a vote at this point. We've got three weeks for someone to tip their hand.

This is his post #0. Afraid to vote. He's also new. This shows a few things:

1. He's most likely not pulling a gambit, as newer players have a low probability of pulling wild gambits
2. He's careful about voting, which means he's not trying to get a quick lynch or rushing things too much on page 1-2.

+ town points.

Awesome. In that case, I'll go ahead a

Vote: Kadersalad

for disliking random votes.

Subject to change, of course.

Reinforces his newbie status and picks Kader for a vote in an ironic twist. BUT: The vote is STILL random. What serious gain is there for voting someone for "disliking" something? Think about it.

Awesome. In that case, I'll go ahead a Vote: Kadersalad for disliking random votes.

If I understand correctly, you randomly vote a player for showing your same behavior? I did not read any self-irony in your message, and thus, it is a bit surprising to me. Can you ellaborate?

I'm random-voting for Kadersalad. I don't have a problem with random-voting. Because I absolutely nothing to go on, I'm voting for the person who doesn't like random voting.

You're trying too hard.

Crazy pushes questioning against tyler. Tyler just reaffirms that it's random. At this point, I believe him.

I gotta be honest, I'm not entirely sure I understand the lynching rules.

Is there a definite lynching everyday?

I mean, I honestly don't know how to enlighten anyone.

I originally wanted to refrain from voting. I was convinced otherwise, so I arbitrarily picked Salad. The way I understand this game is that the person with the most votes at the end of the day gets lynched. At least, that's how I've always understood Mafia. I picked someone for no real reason other than the fact that I was convinced it would be best. I'm still more than willing to change my vote if other evidence shows up, but as its the first day, I don't honestly expect it to.

I was under the impression that a tie was the only thing to prevent a lynching, but then there was all this talk about L-1 and L-3, which I have no earthly idea what it means.

So right now, I am a very confused random voter who has talked entirely too much.

Reaffirms newbie status. 99.9% sure he's not pulling an elaborate "play the newbie card" gambit.

Oh dear God.

It was a RANDOM VOTE.

Why did Ibarra vote for moose? What were the factors that influenced that? What were DemonHybrid's original reasons for voting for KaderSalad?

How am I supposed to justify randomness? I didn't have some huge sweeping plan that I was setting in motion when I picked KaderSalad. I just picked someone to vote for. I didn't know anybody on the list. Nobody had said anything in particular that made me think, "I really ought to vote for them." So I just picked someone. No real reason. Because it was RANDOM.

I'm going to

Unvote: KaderSalad

and

Vote: CrazyQuestions

for trying too hard to build a case without real evidence.

There. Now I'm no longer randomly voting.

After asked about 1000 times, tyler finally votes for Crazy.

Which of the two has more scum motivation?:

1. tyler doesn't vote at first, but votes later on after being pushed to the point of frustration due to dead horse beating
2. Switching votes as soon as Crazy asks the first time

I'll second that Crazy's posts are far, far too long most of the time. And the interrogation and constant scrutiny can be both erroneous and annoying, but I understand the purpose. Hopefully it will come in handy.

I'd still like to hear from Nachomamma. Just because he (she?) is a late entry doesn't mean they're not mafia. but of course, we have absolutely nothing to go on there. Same with Moose. Although what we have from moose is highly suspicious in my eyes.

Pushes to hear from Nacho. Unvotes and waits for info. More townie points.

Well I'm trying not to let the fact that Demon has defended for me skew my analysis. I see Demon as a very helpful IC (or whatever it's called). The rules and various strategies that make up the game are being talked about, which is the point of having experienced players involved, right? On the other hand, Demon did push for a quick lynch. I followed along because I figured, hey he's experienced and knows how this should be played, but the reaction against that move (particularly from Ibarra and aaah) was strong enough for me to question his motives behind it. Then of course, there was a bit of backpedaling, saying he didn't actually want a lynch, just the pressure that an L-1 situation brings up. But this quote:

I would agree that Kader is our best bet and the most likely Day 1 lynch. Hop aboard the train.

really sounds like he's pushing for a lynch, and not just pressure on Kader. However, I understand the desire for a quick lynch, especially if we think we've got the best candidate for a lynch.

Here, he's wary of even the person who is defending him and agrees with his views because I looked like I was too eager for the Kader lynch. Would newer scum decide to suspect one of the only people fighting against his lynch?

The rest of his posts are him basically saying the same thing, but those are the main gists.

[DemonHybrid]

I honestly would like to

Vote:DemonHybrid

.

Oops, guess what I did?

Can you explain this vote? You votehopped again for no reason, especially considering you posted this not a few posts ago:

I am still not sure if Demon is being helpful or sinister, but right now I am leaning to the former since that is sort of his job as an IC to assist and learn at the same time.

[DemonHybrid]

Quite curious. If this careful behavior is a signal of townie-ness, why did you tell him the following after his first post???

I was just giving my read. You look way too hard into things.

How is a townie action throwing negative publicity on your own??? It can only be the other way around.

It's not scum motivated. Why would newbie mafia go out of their way to attract negative attention instead of just going with the flow? There is absolutely no motivation; they want to stay hidden and out of the way but to still push lynches.

Did you therefore lead him to stop being careful-townie to start being lesscareful-townie?? Because he probably wants to know this. If he is town, he will be thinking now that Ibarra and aaah400 are voting him because he was not as careful as he was at the beginning...might you explain to him why you suggested to stop being as careful as he was?

I just told him what was customary in forum mafia games, and let him know what gets us information quicker (which is a good thing). That doesn't mean the actions before that were or were not town tells.

Since when newbie=town????

That wasn't my point.

Nervous newbie = hard to lie, whether scum or town. That would mean that the townliness or scumminess of actions that have town or scum motivation are magnified, depending on the situation.

I am enjoying how the first time you are "fighting" against his lynch is after we have put pressure on you.

Actually, I've been fighting against his lynch ever since you put up that stupid argument against him. I'd rather not mislynch a townie, thanks.

Also, I've read the points in your post to me. I've also chosen not to reply to them, because that cuts the fat out of long wall posts and still answers all of the important, non-dead horse beating questions that you've had for me.

What did you plan to do with that useless information, anyway?

[DemonHybrid]

You're starting to lose me. If I said that Tyler was town after what you guys attacked him for, then...how am I contradicting myself? Ever since his first fucking post, I found him town.

IN GENERAL, not voting in RVS is suspicious, so everyone in RVS should vote (I posted this back when it happened). In THIS SPECIFIC CASE, his wariness before his vote, considering he was a newbie, shows that he was very careful of the situation and therefore, none of his actions have scum motivation. Yes, even back when he was in RVS and didn't vote, which is what you're "calling" me on.

Also, that post of Kader's that you threw up still contradicts what I posted, so I'll have HIM explain it, thanks. Otherwise, it looks like you guys are buddies. And you know what that means, if one of you flips scum?

So let him answer.

[DemonHybrid]

1) If not voting in RVS is in general suspicious, did you consider him suspect when he didnt?
2) If you already interpreted his absence of vote in a townish way because of his specificity, why did you "force" him to vote instead of noting that not voting was a positive signal??

1. Man, take a look at the context of the game. This is his first forum mafia game and he had no clue about RVS. Of course I didn't, it's in the freaking context.
2. Because it's still customary and brings information to the table.

Fine. You considered me Townie, so you "should" interpret my friendship as a positive signal for salad, dont you??

And if one of you guys flips scum, I would most assuredly lynch the other one because you guys are defending each other really hard.

He can answer. I can answer. That is a collective game. I think your question is just fruit of desperation. You are starting to be active attacking salad and defending tyler after feeling the pressure on you? Nice...I will not follow the advices of the person I am trying to lynch, obviously

And this is why you'll either help win the game for scum or lose the game for town. Your vision is so clouded that you won't even bother listening to me. This is called tunneling. It's bad, and it loses games.

[DemonHybrid]

"Play the Newbie Card Gambit". Wats the Play the newbie card gambit ?

"Playing the newbie card" is a way of acting like you're a newbie player, but you really aren't.

[DemonHybrid]

Again, avoiding the main point. The question is you urged him to vote because it was "bad publicity" and kind of scummy signal. However, you interpret his non-vote as townie signal. Quite a contradiction.

And you avoided my point. Dead horse beating.

False. Salad has not defended me in this game.

I just ISOed him. I admit that I was wrong about this, and I'm sorry. He didn't defend you, I thought he had recently when attacking me, but I misread and was thinking of tyler's posts.

Why would I listen to the person I consider scum? You are not providing evidence...and I am quite happy with your lynch at this point.

You listen to EVERYONE to try to build a good case. I've been listening to Kader too, and decided that he has done nothing to help his case, therefore, I stay on his vote. That's the pro-town thing to do; you take all evidence provided and try to piece things together, but if you go "I'm not listening, lalalalalala, UR SCUM" the whole time, you won't gain any information. You have to see what contrasts.

My point is that you haven't really considered my ISO of tyler that seriously. You also throw away the fact that I don't need a large wall post to vote Kader. And you think that, because I wanted Kader wagoned, that I wanted a quick lynch on him, which isn't true.

Did I set up an ultimatum? No, I said that most Day 1's end up in an ultimatum, and if it has to be tyler or Kader, vote Kader.

Talk about distorting reality.

Although, yes, I did miss that point up there about Kader defending you. Totally lynch worthy. </sarcasm>

[DemonHybrid]

Tyler is still scum, though, and I think I'll give you a day or two before I'm forced to show you all why. I recommend that you look into him yourselves first, so you can catch a bit of the glory.

What does this even mean? If you have evidence of me being scum, by all means enlighten us. Don't wait to reveal any evidence. Withholding information (or pretending to have information you don't actually have) is scummy.

This.

I'm very curious to see what you have.

Response to CQ in a bit when I don't have such a headache.

[DemonHybrid]

1) you considered his non-voting attitude a townie signal
2) Instead of noting that townie signal, you told him non-voting would bring bad publicity to him.
ergo, you contradict urself

You are completely missing the point and you are context blind.

This is not about apologies. You consider salad scum, you consider him your only suspect in all the game, and you do not even know who he is attacking or defending? Bad boy. This now constitutes point 15 in my list

I misread one thing. Of course, you'd take it as a scumtell, because you tunnel.

Are you telling me that I am not listening to everyone?

Why would I listen to the person I consider scum?

Yeah.

Distorting again?
I am listening a lot...

Why would I listen to the person I consider scum?

...yeah.

right, distorting reality again. I have not said you set up any ultimatum...may you tell me where did i say that? I said you set up a lynching dichotomy....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichotomy

Means you can have either this or that, among other meanings.

Ultimatum: Means you can have either this or that, among other meanings.

You have to be joking.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah, why doesn't moose want to lynch himself? Good question there.

[DemonHybrid]

In other words, you're taking a misread as a scumtell, which is explicitly what I said you are doing.

[DemonHybrid]

Moose, you're becoming much scummier very rapidly. I agree with tyler, that was dumb to say.

[DemonHybrid]

Why does dumb = scum?

That wasn't my point. The fact that he thinks that defending is scummy is a way to set up just about anyone.

[DemonHybrid]

LOL i actually think Demon and Tyler are mafia :/
Only Helping Eachother out

Also, why don't you start saying something useful instead of parroting everyone?

[DemonHybrid]

So...

I'm mafia with tyler. And then suddenly I'm mafia with Nacho and moose (which doesn't make sense, since we were specifically told that there are two mafia)?

Unvote, vote: aaah400

Someone needs more pressure, because they haven't posted an ounce of fresh content all game. I can't believe I overlooked you.

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, Kader, you aren't off the hook. You keep vote changing and it doesn't look good at all. You keep flipping sides during arguments, and the smell of scum is making me nauseated.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

and

Vote:Demon

trying to put me into one position and not reading posts properly

and he team plays with tyler only

You realize that you've said "you're teaming with tyler" in the last 5 posts and nothing else, right?

You have NO fresh content.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, start wording your posts in a way that I can read them.

nacho,moose and i think now u 2 are mafia

can also be read as

Nacho, moose, and I think now you, too, are mafia.

By the way, that's wrong. Nacho, nor DH, have said that they think that I am mafia.

[DemonHybrid]

*nor moose

I did an ISO and saw DH come up one too many times. First I herp, and then I derp.

[DemonHybrid]

And once again, no new content.

I voted you because you are saying the same thing over and over with no new thoughts on the game. If I were to vote someone for saying that I was "teaming up with tyler", I would have voted Crazy pages ago.

You completely avoided the fact that I said moose and Nacho never said that they thought I was scum, by the way.

[DemonHybrid]

so basically u voted me because im being annoying?
ok then vote me if u want
but if im lynched nothing will be gained
as for you, if u get lynched, we maybe able to reveal if tyler is mafia with u

What a straw man argument.

I'm voting you because you have no new content and yet again you've posted the same thing. Not once did I say I voted you because you're annoying.

[DemonHybrid]

...I'm not going crazy, right?

He's saying the same thing at the end of every post. Is that just me hallucinating?

Am I? Someone?

[DemonHybrid]

aaah, here is my point. You are basically saying "Because I think you and tyler are buddying, you two are scum."

You are missing two things:

1. If we were buddying, you did know that town buddies, and far more often than scum does because scum likes to distance themselves from each other, right? Yes, scum buddies too, but not as often as people think.

2. I am defending tyler from crappy attacks and tyler is ATTACKING me instead. You know that means it isn't mutual, but an independent action on my part, right?

[DemonHybrid]

I understand your case and your suspicion of Demon.

I even agree that Demon is suspicious and with

one

of the reasons you listed. I'm just not ready to run out and lynch Demon first thing. Especially not when Moose has been clearly self-interested far more than town-interested (as well as having a replacement for a non-responder who also happens to be a non-responder. I don't like that at all)

[DemonHybrid]

Please answer the other questions too.

[DemonHybrid]

aaah400, what is your thoughts on Kader's play so far? Go into specifics and cite examples, please. One sentence per ISO (Isolated list of posts, done by the "Display posts by user" bar at the bottom of each page) post is fine.

[DemonHybrid]

For the first point, we are in a newbie game so perhaps you are taking an advantage of the fact that we are inexperienced? And I was wondering, why are you so certain that tylerjarvis is a townie? Isn't it basic mafia knowledge that no one should be trusted...you are talking as if you know that Tyler is a townie, due to the over-protection you show everyone.

And on the second point, why do you not respond to tylerjavis' "attack"? Isn't it more normal to show someone, especially if you believe they are townie that you are on the same side as him? Just by protecting him you are not showing whether you are townie or not, but just portraying that you want to be on tylers' side :/

Oh and just one other point, I do agree with the fact that and Tylerjarvis is vote-hopping too much, I understand that your minds can alter during the course of the game I believe it's more normal for townies to stick by their first choice - since they would have a specific reason for voting in the first place - or at least not vote hop without a strong case that you have built for yourself, not adopting someone elses' "analysis" without puttin much of your own opinion into it.

I didn't look at it as taking advantage, but even as an IC, we're instructed to play how we usually play. The tone may not have been the best, but that is what one will be subjected to during a mafia game; the question was just that: a question. Had aaah answered and told me that he did not know that, I would have not held it against him. Some of the more experienced players are not so knowledgeable on statistics, tells or scum plays, and not every question is a set-up or a gambit; it's just a question.

I gave a somewhat full PBPA (Point by Point analysis) a few points back. I'll dig it up and link it in the next post.

Also, I have never denied that I approve of tyler's play and think that he's a townie. The point of aaah's attack is that tyler and I are both scum BECAUSE I am defending him, and nothing else. I believe all cases against tyler have been nonsense, and have explained why. He says we're scum because we "both" are buddying with each other, and nothing else. No new fresh content. For example, I'm looking for him to give me scum motivations behind my defending of tyler. He needs to ask himself, "If Demon WAS scum, why would he want to do this?"

Here is where everyone needs to take a look at the scum motivation behind the actions. If I believe tyler is a townie, and defend him accordingly and with evidence to back it up, how can one be so sure that my actions are really backed by scummy motivation? Whether or not you decide that I'm mafia defending a townie to the death to net me town points, or I really am right on a read and don't want who I believe is a townie to be mislynched is up to you, but even then, one needs to ask himself: "There is equal town and scum motivation behind his actions. Is it really worth flipping a coin and lynching him based on this behavior?"

For example, the closest someone has come to finding whether or not I have more scum or town motivation behind my actions is Crazy, due to the ultimatum (what he/she calls a false dichotomy) that he/she believes I imposed upon everyone in the game. I denied it, saying that if there IS to be an ultimatum, then everyone should choose Kader over tyler. This is beside the point and is a past argument, but the fact of the matter is, I find him/her more townish due to that sort of information prodding. Saying over and over that "You guys are scum cause you buddy" when 1. We aren't buddying with each other, I'm defending him against bad cases", and 2. He can't find the scum motivation behind my defending of tyler specifically, I'd like to prod him for information to see what his thought process is.

At any rate, I find his townliness less than satisfactory at the moment.

[DemonHybrid]

aaah400, what is your thoughts on Kader's play so far? Go into specifics and cite examples, please. One sentence per ISO (Isolated list of posts, done by the "Display posts by user" bar at the bottom of each page) post is fine.

Why do u swap topics?

it isnt your business and now u are budging in because u are mafia.
u are in panic mode

It is everyone's business what you think of Kader's play so far. That's the point of mafia, and hiding that information will get you lynched, townie or not.

[DemonHybrid]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2684406

This is my past PBPA on tyler's play up to that post. It's not complete, but a lot of the interactions have been repeats of behavior on both sides.

Also, @aaah400, I acknowledge the fact that you said they buddy more and have nothing to say to that. The how or why is not relevant, mainly the "is" or "isn't".

[DemonHybrid]

such a nice IC arnt u?

didnt answer wat ISO is nice shot
u should be replaced

I don't follow...I'm only telling you the truth. Hiding information from the town will get you lynched, regardless of alignment.

I answered everything that was asked of me, so what else do you need?

[DemonHybrid]

aaah400, what is your thoughts on Kader's play so far? Go into specifics and cite examples, please. One sentence per ISO (Isolated list of posts, done by the "Display posts by user" bar at the bottom of each page) post is fine.

*blink*

[DemonHybrid]

To be specific, what an ISO is is what I explained in the parenthesis.

[DemonHybrid]

of course i can answer this but n
#no.1 i got to know wats ISO is
#no.2 y did u swap topics
#no.3 y so curious?

1. Explained in the post above
2. I need more information on what you think of Kadersalad. Our argument was going nowhere.
3. Information gathering is good in mafia. Always. No matter what.

[DemonHybrid]

can u post it on here because my internet has slowed down :/ finished internet usage :/ only barely managing to post and read :/

Post what? I can't post Kader's full ISO here, it would take the whole page up.

[DemonHybrid]

can u post it on here because my internet has slowed down :/ finished internet usage :/ only barely managing to post and read :/

the iso thing. about the parenthesis thing :/

Ahh.

An ISO (Isolation) is a way to read someone's posts individually without any other posts in between. You get to that by going to the bar at the bottom of each page that says "Display posts by each user" and selecting a person and hitting Go.

[DemonHybrid]

Compare tyler's play with Kader's.

tyler is first very unsure about whether he should vote or not. He then votes randomly after I explain that random votes help give us information then switches gears on Crazy. This was after about 4 or 5 sessions of the same question.

Kader votes out of the starting gate, lies back, and then switches gears later on without any pressure on him. I find Kader much less sincere than tyler is, and that may be because of tyler's paranoia of doing the right thing (not the townie thing, but the right thing as far as a game standard goes).

[DemonHybrid]

At any rate, I need to get some sleep; it's very late for me, and I'll answer everything I can when I wake up.

aaah, I appreciate your efforts, by the way. I didn't know your internet was in an iffy state. I'll keep that in mind for now on.

[DemonHybrid]

Well can u show me evidence about this point about how Tyler is THINKING about voting u?

One can attack someone else and not vote for them.

Only because he said a dumb thing? Quite funny. His words were adequate for the interrogation. A good precission by him. Not that I consider it more than very minor, but it was adequate. Especially to position himself, and I liked these words.

It was a dumb thing to say because, no matter what, it sets the person up as being scummy. Defending one's self against a case, especially if said case is biased, is not a scum nor a town tell.

aaah400 was the first one expliciting your connection. He is not parroting. I considered the situation too naive to be true

He may have said it first, but the posts for the last few pages just stated "and besides you guys are buddies" without any more relevant information, though I thank him for the Kader ISO (which I still need to process).

Quite desperate move. aaah400 claims that you are mafia with tyler, not with nacho and moose. Even if you claim to misread the post, that could be the case, it is very scummy. You have been constantly claiming the big scumminess of salad, and now you decide to vote for aaah400 just for this comment?? Quite funny...

And again, you misread why I voted him.

I voted aaah for active lurking and not bringing ANY new content to the table for the last 13 pages, with the exception of a scumlist and the ISO I requested.

He said that 10 pages ago, and probably, yes, this was his only BIG contribution to the game. But hey, not everybody plays the same...
Which is your fresh content? voting for aaah400 for repeating an obvious thing? Why is that?

Active lurking, I.E: Posting without bringing ANY new content to the table and sailing by on a repeated argument, is a major scumtell and has little town motivation backing it. It shows a clear lack of wanting to scumhunt and instead shows a need to survive.

You do not read properly my posts. I apologize for how long they are. I do not say you team up with tyler. I consider mostly that you are using tyler and because of that, I much prefer your lynch. I do not discard the other scenarios, including the naive one where both of you are mafia, but i am not a fanatic of this scenario. This is aaah400's idea, long before in the game..

I don't "use" anyone. I'm defending him because I consider him an obvious townie and would prefer that a townie not get mislynched on Day 1. In a 9 person game, it can have devastating effects for the rest of the game. Lynching scum on Day 1 gives us a major boost by allowing us to observe connections.

You guys don't realize that you're voting me for casually voting for Kader and aaah and defending tyler, but you are doing the same thing to me while defending aaah. I simply just do not want someone who I think is town to die on the first day. So sue me, that's how mafia works.

Do you consider this such a serious signal of scumminess to advance Salad in your scum ranking?
wow !!

...yes.

Like I said, posting without any new content is a major scumtell. It shows you put yourself in front of scumhunting. No townie should value his life over hunting scum. At the same time, town-hunting should be riiiight behind in importance, and that's what I did (and am trying to convince you guys) in regards to tyler.

More desperation

Frustration (at the fact that he's obviously active lurking), not desperation.

aaah400 is correct in pointing out that Tyler is voting for moose. Also, he Tied you and salad, then decided to consider salad more scummy than you...these things made me think the naivete was not such a naivete maybe...so aaah400 is pointing out to interesting facts, even if i do not share completely. Lets see where tyler positions himself now...

Just from pure experience, I can tell you that in most games, people who consider themselves naivete really are. This is using a metagame argument, and it CAN be useful in some cases, like this one. I just feel tyler is more genuine than Kader was.

Notice how demon avoids explicitly to repeat his first message to Tyler. He explained that NOT RANDOM VOTING would attract bad publicty and so on to tyler. Please, go and read this post back if you do not remember it

He then votes randomly

after I explain that random votes help give us information

then switches gears on Crazy.

I believe I said the two things together. Tyler asked if not random voting is bad. Being the IC, I told him that it is considered bad to not use your vote to gain information. THAT DOES NOT MEAN I found his outright confession to not knowing whether he should random vote or not scummy. Those two AREN'T mutually exclusive. Thats what you guys arent getting.

[DemonHybrid]

VII. He already explained and I agree that pressure is good. What I didn't like about what he did was that he didn't give a warning not to hammer.

DemonHybrid, I'm also surpised at your general acceptance of what's currently happening. Remember, there's no need to rush yet.

tyler is just as close to go as Kader is for today. It's good to know that, eventually, while anyone could be voted and lynched, the day CAN wind down to an ultimatum between two people. I'd be careful with voting for him, as there is nothing behind his actions that is scum motivated. Just careful newbie play, which I like.

Also, I'm not encouraging a fast lynch. I'm encouraging the pressure on Kader for his vote-switching with no valid basis. I should have warned everyone not to hammer him, so I thank you for catching that.

Do not vote Kadersalad once more, or he will be lynched with no way to unvote.

We still need some more analysis and information on him.

Also, no matter how close someone is to a lynch, there is always a way out of it, even if you are at L-1 and up against the wall. The information will do us good, I think.

[DemonHybrid]

As for your reply to point X, you are right.

[DemonHybrid]

V/LA tonight and tomorrow.

Holidays. Tomorrow we're celebrating like another Christmas with a different part of my family, so I apologize.

I also cannot reply to 10 paragraphs worth of stuff without an hour to spare.

[DemonHybrid]

demon claim so i cann hammer ur face

I have time to say this: That's ridiculously anti-town.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm a vanilla townie. I still don't have the time to respond to the (now) 15 paragraphs worth of really bad arguments. That will have to come tomorrow.

[DemonHybrid]

Let me put the moose thing into perspective before I leave:

ISO him and search for "Demon" or "DH". You will get one hit on his latest post. He has NOT ONCE mentioned me before this.

[DemonHybrid]

So, Nacho, you're not going to let me respond to any of those points? I'm working on them right now, and you'd deny everyone that information?

[DemonHybrid]

1. Your reason to vote aaah400 may be his active lurking, but at the time of voting him, you conciously/unconciously mixed his words on you and his active lurking. Both things. So it is you who has to clarify his vote.

So...

I'm mafia with tyler. And then suddenly I'm mafia with Nacho and moose (which doesn't make sense, since we were specifically told that there are two mafia)?

Unvote, vote: aaah400

Someone needs more pressure, because they haven't posted an ounce of fresh content all game.

I can't believe I overlooked you.

Mixing his words is irrelevant. My reason for the vote is underlined. How about you stop warping what I'm saying?

I am not favouring the theory of a team tyler-demon. This is a theory that aaah400 has built and defended by himself. It is his contribution, not mine. Indeed, I am defending a very different theory as the preferred one.

Lets take your points for example.

IV. With respect to that supposed newbie, tyler, he mostly buddied him.

Lets not beat around the bush about your tone. Your tone has suggested that you think we're on a team many times due to the fact that he'd rather lynch Kader over me.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2681733
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2681746

...yeah, I could go on and on.

3. Your words to tyler were "Most people like to vote early and often in the game to get discussion going. A public declaration of not voting during RVS will usually throw some negative publicity your way for stalling RVS and wanting misinformation to continue". You openly told him that NOT VOTING was a scummy signal. However, you interpreted his behavior as TOWNIE. If you interpreted his action as townie, why did you tell him that his action could be interpreted as scummy and adviced him to MODIFY IT ??

Dude, I'm the IC. I tell things how they are.

Lets take that same sentence and bold the important parts, the parts you can't seem to read.

"

Most people

like to vote early and often in the game to get discussion going. A public declaration of not voting during RVS will

usually

throw some negative publicity your way for stalling RVS and wanting misinformation to continue"

IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE:

Due to the fact that this is tylerjarvis' FIRST GAME and due to his FIRST couple of posts, I have come to the conclusion that I believe that he is town. You have completely disregarded the bolded sections above in an attempt to discredit me.

If you read his careful play as townie, you would have said something like.

Some people like to vote early to get discussion going. I am happy to see that you are careful, and that seems a good signal on your side. If you want, however, notice that random voting will not have any consequence because we will not lynch based on random votes, blablabla...

No, you told him, you will be SUSPICIOUS for not voting, that is a scum signal, vote !
and he followed you...and at the same time, you were internally thinking (you are TOWNIE for not voting, that is a townish signal, thanks for not voting!!) ??? very curious...

Two things.

1. This suggests that we're on a scum team. You are contradicting yourself.
2. Please tell me that you are joking about this and that you realize that I said THIS EXACT STATEMENT provided in a different way.

More to come.

[DemonHybrid]

I. To ibarra: He concentrated too much on theory, helping him to appear as a participative player.

Again, I am the IC. I am supposed to introduce you guys to theory.

We are talking of page 7, and more importantly, about a moment in which he already took a player to L-1 and claim. He was ready to lynch.

This is pressure:

I would agree that Kader is our best bet and the most likely Day 1 lynch. Hop aboard the train.

It helps to out information. I followed it up with this:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2673155

It is a hefty amount of pressure to bring out the truth in someone. I didn't like his vote switch. So I pushed him to the edge.

Notice how I never said I wanted his lynch now and then. I said, in other words, that I find him the scummiest and so does everyone else. Please join me on this wagon.

Not once did I say I wanted him automatically lynched. Even through a post wanting him to claim.

Not once.

he said that but accepted happily L-1, asked to claim and didnt advice on hammers.

I gave advice on the hammer IN BOLD. I made sure to do that as soon as I could.

He claimed that he considered them the two candidates for lynch. However, this contradicts very much with the fact that:

- TYLER HAD ZERO VOTES until ibarra voted for tyler because of the L-1 and claim situation.
- TYLER WAS A TOWNIE WITH ZERO VOTES in demon´s mind
- DEMON was recently talking of me with respect to day 2 lynches depending on salad flip.

First, for the millionth time, I said IF the ultimatum comes down to tyler and Kader, Kader should be lynched first. IF.
Second, you're wrong about Tyler not having Zero votes. A vote followed by a ton of suspicion is worrisome to become a lynch and I attacked it fast.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2669139

Third, I am confused about where I talked of you with respect to Day 2 lynches. Are you talking about how I said "we can find out more information about Crazy based on Kader's flip"?

If so, you have MISCONSTRUED my post.

The information from Kader's flip will tell us a lot about Crazy in regards to their relationship.

For example, we can tell, if Kader is mafia, whether Crazy was buddying with Kader, distancing herself from Kader, or having a moderate relationship with him. On the flip side, we can figure out just as much information if he flips town.

You'll be able to make a much clearer conscious decision about Crazy tomorrow.

KaderSalad, we'd like you to claim.

Yeah, I TOTALLY said "If Kader flips X, Crazy lives/dies". </sarcasm>

it is a tell to discuss of day 2 lynches

Now invalid.

If he was WORRIED about a quick lynch, how would he accept an L-1 happily, ask for claims, keep his vote, tell people to join his train and vote for salad, forget that a quick hammer might happen, etc etc...

Yeah, I mentioned it minutes after I asked him to claim. Besides, I had talked about quickhammers before and how NOT to do them, and specified that I had reason enough to wagon him to L-1. It was out of RVS, and he had legitimate scumtells, like changing a vote for a shady reason and bowing out.

If he considered tyler townish because of the careful read, he would have not said to him that this attitude generates bad publicity and is somewhat scummy. He did not only said random voting generated info. He also said that not random voting WOULD ATTRACT BAD PUBLICITY on tyler. How can a townish attitude attract bad publicity?

Excuse me, I said that to EVERYONE. It was a general note that in the USUAL case....ugh, you know what, I already said this earlier.

Demon accepted Salad to L-1 and asked him to claim.

IMO, that means he was happy with a salad lynch

(right there, or after some analysis, but he was OK with salad being lynched)

I was not happy with the lynch. I was happy with the wagon and noted he was the most likely lynch.

Trust me, I never am "ok" with a lynch going through (and neither should anyone else) until ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION is on the table.

Read posts 307 and 316. I do think he finds an alternative lynch when seeing he is the candidate now...and he is doing in a scummy way...

Attacking someone for active lurking is not scummy, and that's the wrong way to think.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm ignoring aaah's case because it's a bunch of "ur buddying up/with tyler" active lurking.

[DemonHybrid]

Altogether, think about what you guys are doing. I'm being lynched for:

1. Giving helpful advice
2. Wanting information out of the Kader wagon
3. Defending someone who I think is town from a crappy tunneling case
4. Voting someone for active lurking

[DemonHybrid]

Warped my words around.

I tell things how they are in a statistical/usual gameplay sense. I never said that I wanted to exert my power over the players here, and that actually offends me.

[DemonHybrid]

Done?

And yes. Sorry, I didn't see your post.

[DemonHybrid]

Well it was my opinion as mafias need to persuade people to lynch someone

The only fresh content of the game.

Everyone needs to persuade people to lynch someone, not just mafia.

Yes i am looking at ur actions with tyler buddying up

You've said this already.

In my point of view, i dont see u blending in with the crowd here but this may be a saying to help other players

I don't quite understand this.

I do not know how u played your last games but i do know u are buddying up with Tyler

You've already said this.

Here already u are helping Tyler as Crazy is trying to corner Tyler for his random vote. Well it was his random vote stage so i guess it is ok for u to help

You've said this, but now you put RVS justification behind it. Well, okay.

Yes U did vote kadersalad randomly and he is of course suspicious as i have shown u through my ISO but u have voted me just for lurking and repeating my sayings.. How funny is that. U have evidence of kadersalad of being mafia for his actions but u just accuse me as mafia just for repetitive sayings.

I'm suspicious of you both, and I've already said that.

of course u said kadersalad is our best vote at this stage

Best vote, most likely lynch. Not "Lynch this guy now". I said "wagon him".

Haha. u dont mention other people who voted kader but u support tylers case here?

Not sure what you mean.

After u have cornered Kadersalad with evidience, now u want to save him from being lynched. And u wanted to lynch him but u said we need more analysis. u already showed evidence and u voted him and u wanted to lynch him but suddenly u change your mind by saying we need more information. Suspicious

Crazy has already said this. I already explained what was up.

Haha u cornered kadersalad and u wanted to lynch him but u suddenly wanted more analysis. seems to me your rushing

Crazy has already said this. I already explained what was up.

Again you helped Tyler from being lynched

Because I think he is town.

Well of course you are buddying up with tyler and u only have been helping him from tight corners from edge of being lynched

You've said this already.

You do help him the most -o-

You guys frustrate me to no end.

Everything I say as an IC is aimed at everyone. Every little bit of advice is something for EVERYONE to pick up. Why do you think it was just aimed at Tyler?

Sure sure, two mafias buddying up in my point of view

You've said this already.

Well since Tylerjavis was being asked by Crazyquestions very often, he may show desperation and needs back up and doesnt want to get lynched on the first day

You're assuming that he's scum instead of pushing for information.

Well now im supporting this claim through this ISO and u just vote me for parroting everyone wen i have been suspecting u from the start of the game and you just keep saying that so i can be put up for lynch just for parroting.

Yes, you can be lynched "just for parroting", meaning "you are parroting and NOTHING else".

hmmmm? I will have to see but we can see that u are buddying up from Tyler being lynched and supporting him. Many people do support the idea that tyler is mafia in our opinions but u claim he is not mafia because for stupid claims. Everyone gets a say and have own opinions

You've said this before.

U havent agreeed once, u agreed very often and have similar actions

You stated earlier that you thought I was buddying TO him and he was not buddying back. Why the change now?

I have posted kaders play but i dont see why u have suddenly changed topics. which u claim

I wanted specifics on Kader's posts and what you thought of each. He hasn't posted much; it's very easy to do.

It is everyones business WHO suspect kader as mafia

Don't get what you're saying here.

Now both suspicious. Tyler = blame crazy for so many questions and statements. Buddying up
Kader= vote hop, no support in answer

So....you agree with my Kader suspicion, but think that Tyler and I are mafia together?

...yeah.

I dont see what more information is required as everyone (most people) can see u and tyler are buddying up and having similar actions

You've said this already, and there is a TON of reason why every available amount of information is required before lynching someone.

[DemonHybrid]

Altogether, think about what you guys are doing. I'm being lynched for:

1. Giving helpful advice
2. Wanting information out of the Kader wagon
3. Defending someone who I think is town from a crappy tunneling case
4. Voting someone for active lurking

1. u do not really give helpful advices but just defending yourself from being cornered
2. u just suddenly stopped voting for him as he is on L-1 and u did have enough information to support the face he is mafia
3. not just for defending, u only defend tyler
4. wat a stupid reason to vote. u give all the information and evidence about kadersalad and then u just vote hop to me just for lurking and repetitive information

1. Look at the first page of my ISO and little bits and pieces of my posts until now and show me how I haven't "given helpful advice".
2. Number one: You're wrong. I didn't change my vote until I voted for you, and Kader was long off of L-1 by that point. Number 2: No, I did NOT have enough information by that point; That's what I was trying to DO, was to gain information on him by wagoning him.
3. I've defended Crazy as well, and multiple times. This was already said, which means you aren't reading.
4. It's a VERY GOOD reason to vote. You'll understand soon enough.

[DemonHybrid]

You can vote people to gain information. That is common mafia knowledge.

And once again, you've already said that.

[DemonHybrid]

WE KNOW THAT I DEFENDED TYLER. I've said that multiple times!

Seriously, you have not advanced from my initial argument in the least.

Preview edit: ...uh, did you just scumslip?

[DemonHybrid]

Where did he scumslip?

His quick correct of his statement. That's the first time he's done that all game.

"IF" in giant letters usually implies that you believe fullheartedly in the opposite. You're voting me because you think I'm scummy, so why do you feel the need to help me now?

[DemonHybrid]

...what?

He just finished the though. And he said IF you were townie, IF Tyler was mafia, IF you weren't mafia...

Maybe my mind is mush at the moment.

He said this:

"I see you guys buddying together.

IF you are town, then I can see him using you as a shield."

Assuming that he believes we're both scum.

Follows this up with "I was helping you by bringing up an alternative situation."

...well, why does he feel the need to help? It's a legit question.

[DemonHybrid]

That wasnt my point u moron

I was helping

saying IF u wernt Mafia then tyler is keeping u alive for his shield -o-

Either you need to be clearer, or you keep contradicting yourself.

[DemonHybrid]

Then you need to be clearer. You mean to say that you're just trying to get information, not help me? Cause that would make a ton more sense.

[DemonHybrid]

well u should think. Im attacking u and y would i help u?

Dude, I questioned you without added suspicion. That should give you the hint that I'm thinking shit through.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote, Vote: DemonHybrid

Oh, hey, thanks for letting me get back to Crazy's argument. You are playing completely anti-town, as is moose, and your play (both of yours) is appalling.

Go town. One last word of advice: DO NOT act like moose, and do NOT hammer like Nacho just did. Ever.

[DemonHybrid]

I am a vanilla townie, like I said.

Crazy's argument is filled with holes. aaah keeps saying the same thing. Moose hasn't said ONE productive thing all game. Nacho seems like he just doesn't care.

[DemonHybrid]

. Moose hasn't said ONE productive thing all game.

Yet here I am and your dead.

Great pro-town attitude you have there, moose. Do me a favor and never SE again.

[DemonHybrid]

Why don't you do me a favor and start rotting in the ground.

Again, never sign up for a newbie game unless it's a newbie slot. You need it anyway with the example you've shown everyone so far.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm just pissed because every bit of advice I have given everyone has been met with hostility and used against me, and people like moose, aaah and Nacho are praised for their constant anti-town actions, spasms, bad logic and random hammers.

But whatever.

[DemonHybrid]

I can't decide at this point. The last two pages have been a wave of scumminess.

It's in the group of you, Nacho, aaah and Kader. If I had to pick two, you and aaah.

[DemonHybrid]

You don't even deserve to have someone "pretend" that you're town, but for the sake of everyone:

Then it'd be Kader and aaah.

[DemonHybrid]

u dont post much relevant information bro, all u go is oh he's scum

And don't let this parrot live.

[DemonHybrid]

I really have nothing to say. If Nacho wants to say something, he can.

Teaches me to try something new.

[DemonHybrid]

tyler played amazingly and none of the townies would stop tunneling. Escho basically just had to sit back and wait for the game to be over.

You guys realize that you wasted Day 1 by focusing on how "scummy" a simple defense is (granted, a wrong one, but one I was forced to defend 90% of Day 1) and then built on that without changing any reads, right?

[DemonHybrid]

Also, this is the last game I am going to IC. 100% of the mafia theory I tried to explain was forcefully fused into my normal play and caused my lynch, and no one listened to a thing I had to say.

[DemonHybrid]

Thanks.

You're lying to yourself if you don't say that tyler isn't the MVP of this game. He did a really amazing job.

[DemonHybrid]

I HELPED =p

You did really well, too. The bad actions of one buddy can destroy the whole scum team, and you know that you did a good job, because no one suspected either of you.