Newbie 1012 - Game over

[Enigma]

yo.

[Enigma]

A suggestion to all the newbies in the game.

Get an avatar, something fun and unique.

It makes identifying who is posting ALOT easier!

[Enigma]

/bored of study....

Let's begin the joy of RQS since the game hasn't started yet.... then comes the fun of RVS when the last person confirms.

1. Your time zone and when we can expect you to be active?
2. Experience of the mafia game? Veteran or first timer?
3. Preference? Devious scum ... or Righteous townie?

Here, I'll start:
1: GMT +9:30. Adelaide, Australia. Hello fellow Aussies!
2. Been playing on another site for quite a while, been here for about 3 months. I would hope I have a good understanding of game mechanics now!
3. Scum! I love being cunning and manipulative. I hate being clueless and completely wrong sometimes!

Don't understand what RQS/RVS mean? Check the abbreviations link on the first page and get familiar with all of them!

Let's have a good game, be active and have fun!

[Enigma]

Ahh nice, so it seems we have a majority of oceanic people in this game. Should be good for once.

[Enigma]

VOTE: Silverbullet
Being the only person whom I have played with.
Apparently he's never been lynched as town before (well until a few days ago....) Therefore if we lynch him, he must be scum!!!!!!
L-2! Scary!

Get an avatar (forum pic) people!

[Enigma]

So this is now L-1.
If anyone else votes for silverbullet, you are hammering him and he will be lynched regardless if you unvote or not.
Bad idea to lynch someone less than 24 hours after the day has started

Unvote

VOTE: Dickov for putting someone at L-1!

[Enigma]

Unvote

VOTE: Bhavitgoyal
For being unoriginal and using my reason to bandwagon.

[Enigma]

I have noticed in my travels that usually, the third or fourth person to bandwagon is mafia.

Is that why you made sure you were the second to vote?
And why you aren't changing your vote because you are afraid it will label you as scum now?

Unvote

VOTE: RaymondKurayami

[Enigma]

FoS: Shadow Dancer

For fingering Dickov and not having the balls to put him at L-1 because he is afraid it might label him as scum.

And for spelling his name wrong too.

[Enigma]

Have you realised that your this move could have made someone lynched.

That would have actually required someone willing to hammer him. Lynching is a team effort. Everyone contributes to it, not just one person.
Do you think someone would be willing to hammer already?

[Enigma]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused but...

a) What is l-1?
b) @ Bhavit; What are you talking about?
c) What is FoS and why must it be bolded?

1. Lynch - 1. 1 more vote required to lynch.

So this is now L-1.
If anyone else votes for silverbullet, you are hammering him and he will be lynched regardless if you unvote or not.
Bad idea to lynch someone less than 24 hours after the day has started

2. He is calling you scummy because you

contributed

to a near lynch on during RVS.

3. http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _Suspicion

Helpful Links:

[*]Commonly Used Abbreviations

[Enigma]

Have you realised that your this move could have made someone lynched.

That would have actually required someone willing to hammer him. Lynching is a team effort. Everyone contributes to it, not just one person.
Do you think someone would be willing to hammer already?

No,

I meant a mafia may have done it

and then made an excuse. And L-1 is always a bad position anyways.

I ask you,

would I really be that stupid to do that?

SCUMSLIP??!?!?

Sorry for L-1ing you Silverbullet but it's only fair you get an OMGUS vote after voting for me for such a... pathetic reason.

After analyzing the thread, I will

unvote

but expect an OMGUS for whoever votes for me.

OMGUS voting is not something to be proud of.
Vote for who you think is scum and provide a solid reason as to why you think so.

[Enigma]

This is why we start off with RANDOM voting stage. We begin voting random people stupid reasons and there we transition into a phase of discussion like what is happening now.
And from there we find reasons to begin discussion, and then we scum hunt and lynch the scumbags!

I will address why I disagree with the entire above post after I (cook and) nomnomnom dinner down.

[Enigma]

On Day 1 itself, what information can

truely

be gathered about your surrounding players? Only speculative guessing at best.

I'm not a fan for Day 1 Lynching because it's bad for town to me. We're already gonna get raped by the mafia it doesn't help if we rape our own on such inconclusive evidence.

I'm not a fan of Day 1 Lynching because of the gaming aspect of it as well. I can imagine other fellow new players in this game, after waiting for 3-5 days to get into their first game, they die by day 1 lynch. It's heartbreaking, regardless of whether one is mafia or not.

Yes, I know, I've read the wiki and expect to be told off for being a mafiosi as

it's a mafia tell to vote for no lynch on day 1 bla bla bla

. Pardon the OMGUS voting because that's all I have in my arsenal of defence there is just no plausible way I can actually make a calculated and logical vote on who I think is mafia at this phase of the game.

That being said, inb4youtalktoomuchyoumustbenervousthereforemafia
and inb4onlythemafiavotenolynchday1 or inb4youremafiacauseyouravatarsaysmafia

Mafia is a game of uninformed majority vs informed minority. The only way to win Mafia (well best..) is for town to become informed.

Just because we are voting someone now, does not necessary mean they will be the one lynched at the end of the day. Voting is a means to encourage discussion. Discussion is where knowledge can be gained, and decisions made.

When someone is lynched, regardless of alignment more information is gained. Like, who pushed for his lynch, scum want to mislynch and will push for it.
If there are PR's in the game, it helps them make up their minds about who to protect, who to investigate.
And lynching is the only way to win the game for the town and only way to eliminate mafia.

Mafia is a game. Win some lose some. Dying day one is a very realistic outcome for everyone. Simply sign up to another game and wait a few days for a new game to start. Get used to it.
Sure noone knows for certain who is scum (unless you are scum ofc), that is the joy in this game. Go with your gut, bamboozle your brain.

You can make a logical vote as to who you think are scum. Who do you think is the scummiest player atm?
Vote for them, listing reasons why. Pressure them for more information. If it is valid, other townies will support you. Look for connections between players.
Use that information to validate your original suspicions. That's the only way it can be done.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and go do some scum hunting.

... @ the last bit.

[Enigma]

I really don't like the interactions between raymond and bhavit.
Bhavit seems like he has a personal agenda with his attempts to rolefish.
Raymond seems like he is rather nervous that he is getting negative attention.
Quite possibly that maybe one of the scum is in that pair, maybe in both.

Rolefishing is bad. Also leads that you have some knowledge of other roles in the game, quite possibly meaning you could be scum as they have access to that information due to the setup.

Just to confirm, is this a multi-setup map?

I reken bhavit is just fosing everyone and seeing their responses.

SCUMSLIP??!?!?

How is that a scumslip?

The setup is F11. One random set up is chosen out of 4 possible ones. Therefore there aren't any safe claims for scum, and town don't know what, if any PR's they have. We don't know what set up is chosen.
Seeing their responses isn't necessarily a bad thing Good to get an understanding of how everyone else plays.
It is a scum slip because he was referring to someone on the scum team doing that action. You said you wouldn't be dumb enough to, implying you are on the scum team.

I'm not mafia T.T . Stop tunneling me cause its getting annoying.
Is koreanwonderboy lurking? From previous experience, that may seem like a scumtell but may not be one.
But then again, this is a noob game so I have a small FOS on him.
And also, Silverbullet has not said anything after his vote. I will not unvote him.

It quite possible that people haven't actually checked the thread. Not everyone lives in the oceanic timezone. Trying to divert attention away from himself with an illegitimate reason = Bad.
There are plenty of other people who haven't posted much since the game started. Why are you choosing to focus on him?
Getting annoyed at being accused of being scum. BAD. We don't know you aren't mafia, and you failing and getting nervous under pressure just shows you have something to lose.
Pathetic reason for keeping your vote on silverbullet. Vote for someone who you think is scummy. The pressure has it's power and it is the only power you have if you are a VT.

As an example, I am happy to keep my vote on you for now, for the reasons listed above.

Ok Im going to stop but MY VOTE REMAINS ON YOU RAYMOND.

BAD. If you think someone is scum keep pressuring them to confirm your suspicions. Force more discussion out of them. It makes the whole petty argument from before look like a set up.
This helps confirm my suspicions about a possible scum team between you two.

Bhavit doesn't even notice the scum slip when he responds in #58 until i point it out. The slip was obvious as soon as I read it. Convenient no?

Let's remember that only a few people have posted discussion. It could be quite possible that one/both scum have not even contributed to this discussion tonight. Keep your minds open fellow townies. This leads directly to this question I have been meaning to ask, and the second question follows accordingly.

1. Lynch all lurkers?
2. Lynch all liars?

OT: I was going to say I like your new avatar (the one with the baby) bhavit, but you seem to have changed your avatar multiple times.

[Enigma]

Actually where did you get the baby avatar. I want it for myself.

[Enigma]

Nice avatar Enigma.

Hint hint: You can change your avatar again bhavit

[Enigma]

Being scum partners does not necessary mean you know how to spell your partner's name....

You said you were willing to vote. You still haven't committed to voting him. And hes not even close to L-1 now.
Yet you maintain your vote on me without reasons.

Votes are the strongest powers townies have. If you think he is scummy, use it on him. Else explain with reasons why you find me scummy.

[Enigma]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM
Since Shadow fails at linking urls.

[Enigma]

KoreanWonderBoy is online for quiet a long time now. He has not posted after comfirming.

Stop trying to divert attention away from yourself. Why are you so interested in him? What about everyone else who has yet to post much???

He has not been online since
Last visited:Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:14 am
Current Time: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:40 pm

[Enigma]

@Shadow Dancer.
Remember this is a newbie game. As an IC, take to time to explain concepts to some players who might genuinely seem like they don't understand the concept before destroying them for being scummy.
I'm trying to give them all the benefit of the doubt if they seem clueless before I attack their arguments.

[Enigma]

I have a question for everybody

How would you react if you were at a L-1 situation

Stupid question. Stop trying to rolefish.

It's dependant on many variables,
How you got there?
Are you a town PR?
Are you scum?
Is someone willing to hammer?
etc etc

[Enigma]

I have a question for everybody

How would you react if you were at a L-1 situation

It is in your and every one's best interest to give a satisfying explanation for why whichever behavious other players considered scummy was driven by a townie mentality.
- Be honest.
- Defend agaist the arguments brought forth against you.
- Proceed scumhunting.
And convince us you are town, if everything goes well.

Sound words... unless your scum Then lie!

[Enigma]

bhavit vs. ray looks strange... Definitely something to keep an exe on.

Explain more, do you agree with my post #77? Your thoughts on it?

Interesting to see both ray and bhavit have spoken up about Koreanboy. Very...

Dickov, if you are townie then act in towns best interest. Claiming AtE is NOT in towns best interest.
I said it before, stop feeling sorry for yourself and scum hunt.
Discuss who your find scummy, explain reasons and try to find some scum.

I'm prepared to vote for you again based on you putting someone at L-1 (admittedly during RVS but with a very poor reason) and your withdrawal about not wanting to scum hunt.
Scum hunting is the ONLY way townies can win, and your efforts to discourage it suggests that you aren't playing for the town win condition.

[Enigma]

Note to all newbies when checking this thread as it has grown surprisingly quickly...

Spend your time reading through

ALL

the posts and make the effort to develop your own thoughts and opinions.
Don't be intimidated by the size of the thread, get used to it!
Don't skim through the thread because you will likely miss alot of valuable information to help the town win.

@ Bhavit
You and raymond trying to divert attention to someone who hasn't posted yet is the origin of this question. Do you really think Koreanboy is scum because he hasn't checked in today?
Answer the question I've asked you several times.

Stop trying to divert attention away from yourself. Why are you so interested in him? What about everyone else who has yet to post much???

[Enigma]

Heh. I remember one of my earlier games.

I went V/LA for 2 days only, came back and found 11 pages of WALL posts, and every time I tried to post I would get at least 3+ preview posts. Scary!
Some games tend to be rather active, some not so much..

[Enigma]

Can we keep track of the deadline somewhere mod?
Thanks.

[Enigma]

Heh we both asked the question at the same time. Didn't even check the preview edit!

Great minds think alike!

[Enigma]

3 weeks for Newbie games. 3 day for night phases.

Varying lengths depending on mod for other games.

[Enigma]

Part of the mafia experience is to get accused. Quite often wrongly. Some people more than others

Accusations are good. They encourage discussion. They don't necessary mean you will be lynched.

If you are town, scum will want to get you lynched. Only you know you are town, try and figure out which people are attacking you for poor/illegitimate reasons. Learn the scum tells (see the wiki). Develop your own.
Whose going to jump on your bandwagon easily? Scum want to jump on your bandwagon because they know it will contribute to a mislynch. Look for pairing, some scum distance themselves from their scum buddies, some will bus like hell, other's will defend each other. Based on your understanding of their meta, how do you believe they would act given they are town/scum?
Make your defence your offence.

If you are scum ... don't panic stay calm and focus on your win condition. Nuff sed...

Again: Being voted does not necessary mean you will be lynched. It is because people find you suspicious. It is up to you to clear the suspicion/misunderstanding and to point out flaws/suspicious posts from other people who are discussing your wagon. Only a logical argument will work, AtE (appealing to emotion) will just make people more suspicious of you. Don't do it.

A note on claiming your role. Don't do it unless you are absolutely certain you will be lynched.

[Enigma]

^Now that is ALOT more better. This is what you should be doing Raymond. Evidence, your thoughts, and accusations aka scumhunting is the best tool we all have to rid this town of those mafia.

Hopefully I have a response sometime tonight

[Enigma]

Directed at Dickov but works well for both posts.

[Enigma]

Quick post because I got distracted tonight. Sorry.

Why am I not voting for you although I feel you may be Don BhavitGoyal? It may be Enigma, it may be Shadow Dancer and it may be you (based on Day 1 information ONLY) but a vote is all that I have and I would be remiss to relinquish it so easily again and have my voting choice used against me like I have against several of you. It may change though, depending on the performance of players in Day 1.

I hate pointing out breadcrumbs but I'm sure other people will have noticed it too. Best point it out now so all your newbies don't make the same mistake later.

You are breadcrumbing to be a Vanilla Townie. Stop! Claiming VT IS BAD.
While people might think it is harmless it isn't because it helps scum make up their mind about night kills. Particularly in Power Role (PR) sniping. If you don't have a PR, it makes it more likely scum will hit someone with a PR which is bad for town.

Breadcumbing is bad. Regardless if you are a VT or a PR.
Claim when it is necessary, don't give away hints or do it any time before it is.
Only claim (as defense) if you are at L-1 and someone is WILLING to hammer. Not before.
Don't buckle under pressure from other people and give up. Keep defending yourself and scum hunting.

Read through your posts and think about what information you are subconsciously leaking out without you noticing.

Interested to see Koreanboy and Lollero's contribution to the thread when they post. Make it worth my wait!

Other than that the discussion is awesome! Should turn out to be an enjoyable game at this rate.

[Enigma]

VT's have no incentive to claim town PR's and is actually very detrimental if they fake claim.
Scum know who all the townies are and are much more informed to be able to judge if the VT claim is fake or not.

You do want to prove you are a VT, but if you claim it doesn't necessary mean the rest of the town will believe you anyways. But scum know what you are saying is true.

And quite often, the sad reality is if you do claim VT when you are at L-1, you still get lynched anyways. If you are a town PR, that is a different story.

There is a 75% chance there is at least 1 PR in this game. PR's are much more powerful than plain VT's and well chosen targets spell disaster for the scum.
A correct doc protect not only prevents a mafia kill, it also confirms one townie.
A guilty cop investigation means 50% of the scum team is dead.

If you claim VT, a PR is more likely to die if scum are trying to snipe. If you don't claim, scum are more likely to miss the PR.
Hence why you don't claim unless it is absolutely necessary.

Scum fake breadcrumbing is a very dangerous business. It reduces their opportunity to fake claim at mass claim time, and they don't even know for certain what PR's are in the game so it's risky and suspcious to breadcrumb a town PR.

I hope I'm making it clear, just trying to express the general consensus in regards to claiming here.

[Enigma]

Working through this slowly from pg 6...

Firstly; Enigma.
Is it just me or does it look like you became the self-appointed shot caller in this game? A look at the voting for both times Excedrin has published the vote count shows that you are involved in the buildup to lynch for both silverbullet999 AND RaymondKurayami; both leaders in votes. Granted, I too was involved in silverbullet999's wagon but I had a justifiable reason (by my standards at least) to vote for him.

I don't mind being the appointed shot caller!
So I'm contributing to putting pressure on people. I'm forcing discussion out of people I find scummy. It's less me being appointed shot caller and more people bandwagoning after my line of thoughts. You don't really make your point clear here. Are you implying I'm scummy for taking an active role in scum hunting? Seems like a subtle effort to discourage scum hunting and more of an invitation to join the mindless argument between you and bhavit. Not giving you the luxury of the newb card anymore. Take some scum points instead.
I changed my vote many times because it was RVS and I felt like being a douche. Also served a greater purpose and that was to get a preliminary reading on all you newbies to see how everyone reacts to being voted.
And also OMGUS is a very poor reason to vote someone. Unsubstantiated and unjustified.

It was a mere coincidence. I voted for you earlier but he posted it earlier.And about the Raymond incident, it was foolish of me not to notice the obvious scumslip. Maybe I need to be careful with these statements next time.

Don't believe in coincidences. And that scumslip was obvious. Poor form for you not to notice it and to make up silly excuses as to why you didn't. Maybe you were just hoping noone else noticed it...

You have OKed my suspicions of Enigma which makes wonder why you earlier OKed his vote against me. It seems that whenever someone becomes vocal in this game, you are always in the shadow of their aggression... that is... until the aggression is directed against you.

I agree with this interpretation. Alot. I think it's convenient for him to try and stay out of the spotlight and try and fuel his agenda, until he is forced into it. That is convenient for scum I mean.

The caution you have applied to what has said so far id est agreeing with whoever is the voice of the moment, hijacking the moral high ground, the constant scapegoating of lurkers and newbies and maybe just your darned good position (as mafia) has increased your finger to a hand.

Why don't you vote for him. Voting has alot of merits based on the pressure it places. Finger's and hands not really as much and I'm surprised bhavit is uncomfortable with them directed at him.
(Preview edit: done)

Man, I really hope I'm not looking into this wrong...

Why are you so worried? Your vote is serving it's purpose, putting pressure on someone you find scummy. If you aren't prepared to see him hammered, just retract your vote if more votes build up on him.
It seems like you are worried because you know it is a mislynch.


PREVIEW EDIT:

I'm grateful that silverbullet deflected his vote onto you. Because now I will sadistically see what happens to the frog when you increase the temperature of the pot

I like this kid.

[Enigma]

Uggg...

I was going to try to do a in depth catch up post but that's probably not going to happen.
So yerr.. just assume I have read this whole thread

Will kinda be a bit preoccupied this week considering it is mid term break with alcohol induced fun. Heh.
Will post again when I have time.

[Enigma]

With two mafia against seven townsfolk, mafia would do well to remain low key; occasionally throw accusations here and there and generally thrive in the shadows while the Townsfolks begin the rape of each other in the name of "scumhunting". Even without intending to, Raymond has been accused of providing a "scumslip", I have been accused of bringing you to L-1 and Bhavit has yet to fully explain to me satisfactorily the inconsistency in his wagoning with Enigma. On the surface of it, all three of us are doing a good job of biting the bullet for the mafia.

Hench why lynch all lurkers is a necessary question which you have still yet to provide a satisfactory answer for.
I have yet to provide an answer for this question though, so I will now.
First it is important to differentiate between lurking, active lurking and v/la (busy or afk). In later games this can just be done with a simple meta check, however in newbie games we don't necessary have this luxury.
-Out of the 3 I listed, active lurkers need to be pressured and forced. Active lurking consists of posting but posting nothing of interest, doing no scum hunting, expressing no opinions and pretty much doing nothing but posting to avoid being prodded/replaced. This way scum stay out of the limelight which town bicker amongst themselves. Active lurking needs to be discouraged by voting and possibly being lynched. It is just anti town behavior and makes LYLO assessments even harder.
-Lurkers are people who don't post much. These guys also need to be pressured but one must be careful as to judging them as to whether they are scum hiding or just townies who are genuinely uninterested in the game. So if you are town and you cbf playing this game, do your team a favor and replace out. Else expect votes to start flying towards your directions.
-V/LA people are people who can't post due to RL constraints. This doesn't mean they are scum. Actually, all those people who are attacking these people are more likely to be scum trying to divert attention away from themselves.

In other news I agree with #206 by Dickov.
Bhavit's #208 response I dislike.
I changed votes randomly in early game because it was RVS. It should have been apparent from my poor reasoning behind my votes. It should be apparent that I'm careful with my vote when we are out of RVS as shown by my play. You disregard your act as suspicious because it was RVS yet you try and attack me for being suss because of my RVS behavior? Pot kettle back anyone?
Your excuse of never rereading things is a poor effort to cover up why you didn't notice the scum slip. You should be reading the thread multiple times if you are serious about scum hunting. It was obvious, enough said.


And reading through the petty arguements between Dickov and Bhavit is making my hangover worse.

Also, regarding active lurking: Rockerboo is a prime example of that. But his day will come, for now...

Unvote

VOTE: BhavitGoyal
Let's see how you really react at when you approach this L-1 situation.

[Enigma]

I voted alot of people at the beginning of the game during RVS. Silver, Dickov, Bhavit, Raymond.
Does that mean everyone else who now votes for the same person I do now are a scum team with me?

Fail logic is fail.

[Enigma]

Hehe... Enigma is also struggling to keep up with this game...

So true. All my posts tend to be catch up posts referring to content several pages back.
Honestly it is the biggest mind fuck reading and understanding alot of the posts.
Several have very weak logical reasoning which I need to read several times just to grasp and the heaps more are just a wild goose chase going around in circles requiring me to constantly have to reread the whole page just to see where they are coming from.

Not saying discussion is bad, but too much unproductive discussion isn't necessary helpful to town. That, and it confuses the crap out of any replacements if they are town (from personal experience!). Wall posts aren't necessary a pro-town effort.

[Enigma]

Anyways it seems that none of the experienced players, SE/IC's have gotten much heat so far today, including myself. Now I haven't played a newbie game for a while but I have a feeling many people are opting to attack weaker players, well actually all 3 of us (being me, silver, shadow) amongst everyone else are tunneling all the newbie players, where quite alot of the mistakes could just be genuine newbie misunderstandings.

Given we make up one third of the player base, it is likely that at one of us could be scum, maybe even two. But trying to outguess random ain't going to do anyone any favors but I just want to spend some time inciting discussion on a different topic, that is a break from the mindfuck/senseless arguing that is the past 10 pages, which I do believe will get excessive and hurt the town if it gets out of control.
Again, discussion is very good, but too much pointless arguing and bickering will hurt later in the game when rereading day 1 will be useful. Some people cbf (raises hand) and other's will just lose their sanity trying to decipher all the stuff that has gone on.

So I'm not discouraging everyone from posting, I'm just saying slow down, don't repeat yourself unless it's necessary and make what you are trying to convey clear and concise. Other people don't want to have to reread your post multiple times to guess what you are trying to say. Ohh and format your posts so we can actually take you in context, else just expect many people to skim over your arguments which you spent so much time making.

Here are my opinions on silver for now, if someone wants to do an ISO of me feel free.
ISO (Just viewing all the posts by a specific poster, post number's refer to isolated view, found at bottom of page).

#4, Suggests that lynching townies is acceptable and even productive. Personally, lynching townies should never be acceptable. Due care should be taken before committing to a hammer, and even 1 mislynch gives scum a huge advantage in terms of the majority power.

#5, You make several accusations but you never accuse anyone of being scum. You suggest to pressure people yet you decide to unvote even though you find several people suspicious as detailed in that post.

#6, I actually agree with bhavits approach to lurkers. I would actually wait for them to check in (else they would be replaced as done) before questioning them. Again, it's important to differentiate between lurkers, active lurkers and those who are V/LA which I mentioned in a previous post.

#8, I agree with your rebuttal about why they should substantiate their suspicions. Everyone should be doing that. What irk's me is that you suggest that you don't think the lurkers are scum, nor are you willing to consider the possibility that they may be right and one of the lurkers are indeed scum.

#9, I don't agree with your reasoning for voting bhavit, because his retort however weak, is also true. But I don't like the backflip on bhavit either.

#12, I think you have completely taken name out of context. He says other people, meaning people other than raymond. Moot point here.

#13-14, That's an awful lot of questions several of which are trivial and silly. Your lucky andrew answered them, because I most probably would have ignored most of them. And actually your questions don't even seem to be supporting scum hunting, just more an arrogant (pot kettle black I know) defense when someone points out a flaw.

So now, let's see how you respond to more prodding in your directions.

[Enigma]

Upon rereafing Enigma I realize that I really cannot read him one way or the other, all I can tell

for sure

from his posts is that he is SE. His posts abound in helpfulness. But not much else. His early votes where, well, early votes. And his newest vote for bhavit is not justified at all (other than "let's see how reacts", which is a pretty bad reason to put him at L-1, especially in a newbie game).
@Enigma: Could you maybe give us an analysis on every player or something like that?

Firstly, Bhavit is not at L-1.
Secondly, I tried to present a read on you as well when I did silverbullet. I gave up because it was inconclusive, ie: like your read on me.

Now I actually want to comment on the andrew, silver, name discussion as well, but I will need to raincheck that until I have time.

I used the SE/IC to help support my argument. I know it really doesn't hold any weight but it might help shift the focus off everything else, which it has a bit really.
I posted the ISO on silver to achieve a few things,
Shift attention of the dickov and bhavit argument which is now becoming excessive and just plain confusing. Achieved!
See other's people reaction to a different case against someone I found slight scummy. Achieved!

Focusing on one argument won't ever give us a solid read, because reactions are different when scum are attacking town compared to when scum are defending/ignoring a case against their partner.
We can see who ignored the case and hope it disappears, we can see how silver responds (which I will address very soon), we can see who is eager to try a new wagon because they wanted an excuse to get off another wagon etc etc.

[Enigma]

My ISO of silver?

[Enigma]

No comment on everything that has happened since my last post........

[Enigma]

Anyways I think rockerboo is due to be replaced. So might as well just wait for those 2 to be replaced before deciding how we want to proceed.

[Enigma]

Incoming wall just wait it out.

[Enigma]

I'm very good at making politician promises. Sorry!
Heh I've just realized why I've lost grunt for this game. If you've played with me before you'll realize I get emotionally involved in games and start calling everyone stupid for not agreeing with my points and get all fired up and overly aggressive, but I tried to hold back this game as it's a newbie game. Mehhh.
That and the walls of text and illogical charade of arguments scare me .... yeah scare you read right.

Anyways ... starting from my silver ISO.
Just open up that page and read down the page, referring to post numbers.

Page 12

Yeah, the same 58.333... % I already calculated for one scum among us. Eliminating me that leaves us with ~46.4% (13/28) that one of you two is scum and just 8.33...% (~7.14% eliminating me) that both scum are among us experienced players... Not very likely, searching newb scum is a promissing strategy. And so far I haven't found anything clearly scummy about any of you... And my plan to abuse RVS to put artificial pressure on silver just resulted in a rather pointless waggon.

I hate it when people who analyze vote counts or statistics ignore the possibility that they are scum and mark themselves off as town. The town thing to do is to present the true figures and let the other townies decide for themselves where they place you. Scum want to encourage townies to believe they are town, which is what you are trying to do subtly. Townies should be more convinced about scum hunting than trying to convince other people they are town when they aren't being attacked.
Your last sentence is kinda contradictory, you got the pressure on silver (which I don't know what you wished to achieve with it) yet you shrug it off as pointless?

Silverbullet,
I find him incredibly defensive and worried that he is attracting negative attention in his response to my ISO in 286.

Andrew,
Completely ignores everything that is being said about anyone else apart from Silverbullet or comments attacking him. Not quite sure what he is trying to achieve with his tunnelling effort, all I know is that his illogical arguments, and silverbullet's rebuttals are confusing the fuck of out of me. PS: VI is not something to be proud of, there is a reason why it is termed "idiot". VI play doesn't necessarily mean it's scum but I know for sure it's anti town which is unhelpful at all.

Dickov,
I find his response in 293 a bit emotional and very defensive and doesn't really help divert any suspicion off him or explain his intent properly. Could be a newb buckling under pressure, or scum whose getting worried and extra defensive now that he is being accused. I think the latter is much more likely.

BhavitGoyal,
295 seems fair, I agree with a bit of what he has said but seems quite manipulated when I did my own ISO of Ray. Raymond does seem a bit weak in scum hunting, quite possibly just a newbie trying to learn the ropes but flails really bad under pressure. Raymond could quite possibly be scum getting nervous but his play represents a newbie play which you seem to have so conveniently discounted. Good to see an effort in scum hunting by Bhavit.

Shadow Dancer,
The wall post in 296 just seems to be excessive and stating the obvious to what everyone already knows.

I'm just finding it frustrating when trying to comment on the illogical wall posts of back and forth arguments between everyone. You don't need wall posts to convey your thoughts across, one or two short distinct paragraphs is all that is necessary in most cases. And I've said it before, it's getting out of control and will only hurt town in later days because all it does is confuse the fuck out of everyone. People seem to associate walls of text as townies trying hard, but in fact you are all quite mistaken.

Page 13

Nameloc,
301 feels really genuine and sincere to me. I can't get a through read on all the people posting walls of argument because little bits stand out to me as scummy but I would go and say by best town candidate so far up to this point is Nameloc. I would pay attention to this post though later in the game when we have some flips to see the possibility of him being scum and trying to subtly defend his scum partner.

Dickov,
I see alot of reference towards the wiki. Now I feel the wiki tends to teach people how to be pro town and I feel Dickov is trying really hard to seem pro town and is using the wiki for guidance. The wiki isn't gospel and knowledge comes from experience. Why Dickov is trying so hard to appear pro town? Not quite sure but I'm getting more of a scum feeling as a result of that.
I just find alot of the arguments here, and in many other wall posts, are getting very theory based and not relying on concrete evidence. As I result I tend to pay less credit to them, so if you are trying to convince me, try harder.

Andrew,
When people write in quote boxes, like you in 306 it is incredibly hard to read and fails at getting your point across. I recall someone said to stop this earlier. I suggest you take that advice.

Shadow Dancer,
314, Comical lols. Quite true here.

Remainder posts are all just fluff.

I think I can live with that. I think that was directed more towards Andrew. I really cannot figure out what some of his sentences mean or refer to since they make - either logically or grammatically - no sense. With you it's more of formatting problem, I guess.

The bottom line is: Trying to figure out what your argument is all about alone gives me headaches and leaves me behind but confused.

I second this, even though I've mentioned it multiple times.

A few things I want to point out. I find it very interesting that people trying to bring up alternative suspects for being scummy are being devoted null/minimal attention, case in point: my ISO of silver, bhavit's ISO on raymond. People seem to want to continue the petty arguments between each other which gives me the distinct feeling that the andrew/silver and dickov/shadow pairs are quite possibly town vs scum interactions. I have left of scum/scum because I just can't imagine either parties being capable of an elaborate bussing plot. I actually feel that it is very likely there is at least one scum out of the 4 there, and maybe both scum are in the grouping.

Page 14

Andrew,
I'm not quite sure what to make of post 328. At first it seemed like scum hoping people would ignore the issue of suspecting him to be scum if they remained confused about the issue when trying to read his poorly formatted walls of mehness. But then he bites the bullet a few posts later. In a read of an further ISO of silver, I disagree with his case. Silver has done things which I perceive to be scummy as I've detailed in all my posts but I don't see your argument standing to any scrutiny Andrew. I actually feel exactly as you said about silver towards your argument.

i then said he was making the case seem much bigger than it actually is - typical scum move to lynch someone

Dickov,
I'm not quite sure of how to make of you leaving the game. I've seen scum get frustrated when they feel they are being tunneled, or townies giving up when they are being falsely accused. I like to give replacements the benefit of the doubt usually but always take the previous players actions into consideration when making a case. I will discuss this again later in reference to Shadow.

Silver,
346 ... Delivered. See promises do come true. I say no comment because I tried reading everything and after my initial read I was left more clueless than I was originally before I read everything. And I think my IQ level dropped a bit too ....
Policy lynching VI's is something I disagree with. Your entire case thus of far lynching on him being a scum idiot. The concrete evidence is minimal.
You want to lynch him because you think he might be scum but you are convinced that he is an idiot and you will policy lynch enforce that. (I see you haven't played much with drmyshotty).
What I don't like is that you aren't willing to commit to a policy lynch on scummy lurkers as you discussed early in the thread but you are backing up your current lynch based mainly on a policy lynch.

Shadow,
His 347 is pedantic, I hate it when people are pedantic and expect full attention towards their argument when they only comment on specific issues. What intrigues me is that he is yet to accuse anyone else of being scummy and has focused on dickov for nearly the entirety of the game as being scum. His game play involves provoking people to answer his questions but yet does not arrive at the important conclusion, does he think they are scum and is he going to pressure them to confirm his suspicions.
Suddenly the dickov/shadow scum team are looking much more viable as a bussing scam, and I think Shadow would be more than capable of pulling it off.

Page 15 and final conclusions to come. Tired....

PREVIEW EDIT: Too bad DP it's already here. Enjoy!

[Enigma]

Actually just want to point this out.

Rockerboo
Last visited:
Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:09 am

And I know he visited on Sunday too because I checked that a few days ago.

[Enigma]

It's good someone read my wall!
Was worried you didn't read it after you asked me to post my opinions on everyone.

I actually put alot of effort into it (suffered a loss of brain cells reading andrew vs silver and shadow vs dickov) but I think alot of my observations are sincere and not biased like alot of other reads.
Please do actually read these past few wall posts guys, It gives a good neutral view of the situation and I quite honestly do think we need to get away from the walls of illogical arguments. Really. Please do stop.

Anyways 1 more wall to come, hopefully in the next few days covering the last few pages. Deadline is in 1 week, so decision time soon!
Also something needs to be done about Rockerboo. I really want a better read on him before the deadline comes up.

Mod: Please prod rockerboo again or whenever you feel it is reasonable based on when you last prodded him.

[Enigma]

Ok let me rephrase that.

I'm reading in a fashion where I don't perceive every post by said person is scummy and the work of scum while picking only specific phrases to nitpick whilst not taking their entire play thus far into context.
Better?

[Enigma]

Umm the post above was in reference to Shadow dissing my "neutral" opinions.

I will address your posts in a mega wall post sometime.
Politician promise: Sometime Soon^TM

Also I mean it, reading the wall of text arguments between you four is very painful and quite discouraging.
I would even venture to say that's what scared off alot of people, myself and the newbies included because we honestly find it hard to comment on.

[Enigma]

Soon^TM

[Enigma]

With the deadline rapidly approaching, I'm willing to see a lynch on Raymond and Silver, and to a lesser degree Bhavit and andrew.

Out of all those 4 listed though, I think silver would be the most viable option because of the scum pairing I mentioned earlier on and based on how he has been playing, focusing only on issues that pertain to him, and ignoring all other cases and arguments about everyone else.
I actually do want to hear from Andrew about what he thinks of the Shadow case against silver compared to his own case.

I'm in the process of thinking about wanting to finish my wall post atm where I will provide my final observations for day 1, but for now,

Unvote

[Enigma]

Let's get back to lynching the scum lurkers now.

Wanted to point this out before my mega wall post.

Really man? You still want to lynch that slot even though the replacee has come in and commented on what's happen. And you still haven't addressed how joystick himself is playing?
Might add the Dickov/DP slot to the list I'm willing to consider to lynch now. (Heh it's like half the town now. Damn you stop being so scummy everyone)

[Enigma]

Andrew you obviously didn't read my wall post, nor did silver.

Why do I bother wasting my team when you downies can't even spend a few minutes reading something that took me over an hour to prepare.

Btw silver, people have lives. Live which coincidentally don't revolve around spending 1 hour writing (coherent logical) essays on mafiascum.

Also, I'm not liking HopOn's backflip in 449 and 440.

[Enigma]

I commit walls when I feel like dedicating free time to this game.
I like to spend my other free time doing other stuff that is fun.

And I hate it when people demand every question of theirs be answered. Especially if they are trivial. Your questions are all you attacking my opinion of something on you. And honestly the only thing you care about in this game are thought processes that are directed at you and noone else, which is why I find you scummy. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with it.
My assumptions are made from the evidence details in my post and my interpretation of it. I don't need to clarify it for you just because you don't agree with it.

[Enigma]

Sighh.. You just don't get it.

I say I feel you are getting worried and nervous and you challenge that statement.
You are free to challenge it but it is my interpretation of your play so far.
Doesn't necessarily mean you said in a post: OMG IM WORRIED AND NERVOUS NOW.

Your current play thus far only shows to me that you are incredibly defensive and try and find offense if your defense. You accuse people who attack you of being scum, which I don't think is satisfactory.

[Enigma]

I'm with you on raymond, he definitly is scummy but this whole silver vs shadow is distracting

Then why did you backflip and choose to vote Shadow instead of pressing forth with best candidate for lynching?

[Enigma]

Wait, I must have missed SB asking for a lynch between him and Shadow.. That is just a purely stupid thing to say and very anti-town. However, it's also anti-scum if you are scum, so mostly just stupid.

I'm going to have to agree with this one.

Firstly, unless you are a cop and have a confirmed guilty result, there is no use asking for this. Being the martyr is not in the towns agenda, trust me I learnt the hard way.
So what you have done is effectively claimed VT (You wouldn't sacrifice yourself as a PR...) - Also making the PR sniping much easier for scum.
So Shadow made a slip up, doesn't necessarily mean he is confirmed scum. And if your mistaken about this lead you've effectively put the town into LYLO if we lynch Shadow tomorrow *if* you flip town.

AtE annoys me. I want to think that you wouldn't try and be a martyr as scum because this play is pointless, but at the same it ain't helping town either.

I'm not keen on the "lynch me, then when you see you are wrong lynch him". Could go disastrously wrong.

[Enigma]

I'm actually going to go off a gut read now and say I don't think silver is scum (as scummy as I think he was before).

I don't think he would be dumb/smart enough to pull this charade off as scum .. regardless of WIFOM etc etc.

[Enigma]

Andrew taking to ACTIVE lurking and zero contributions in these final important moments does not impress me.

Seems he has relaxed down alot now that he isn't being attacked and no longer wants to chase any leads ... maybe just scum who was getting defensive when being attacked.

[Enigma]

What? Your reason for active lurking is because of an ongoing game?

[Enigma]

Yep the deadline is near...

At this point I'm only interested in Andrew and Raymond, based on their current play in the past few days, the latter over the former.
Most important time to make a decision as town and they are actively lurking with unhelpful posts. Reeks of scum to me.

[Enigma]

Also just a heads up to newbies who haven't joined other games.
Most mods play deadlines and votes slightly differently, some will no lynch is a majority is not lynched some will with conditions etc etc.
Make sure you are familiar with the rules of each game.

For this particular game:

At deadline, ½ the original number of votes will be required for a lynch. In the case of a tie, the person who first received the required number of votes will be lynched. If this number is not met, a No Lynch will occur. There will be no reduced number of votes in LyLo.

Does that mean 3 is enough to lynch btw mod?

[Enigma]

Because I was hoping to finish a mega wall post but now I really cbf.

And I'm still kinda waiting on a proper response from each of them before I vote them, nothing that is one lined thoughtlessness.
They've got a few days to convince me otherwise, but rest assured I will vote for them unless they can convincingly change my mind before then.

[Enigma]

This day needs to end. I am over this active lurking bullshit from both Andrew and Raymond.
One (or both) of you are probably scum, but I'm not going to take my chances if LYLO with you and make my choice then.
Pity we can only lynch one of them right now.

VOTE: Raymond

[Enigma]

What is it with Silverbullet saying I'm going to hammer but I'll just see if someone else will do it?

It's pretty unlikely that someone else will be lynched, and if Raymond turns out town imma have to add some scumpoints to you for trying to not get any scumpoints by not hammering (or abusing the rules mechanic) etc etc.

Put your vote where your mouth is mate.

[Enigma]

Mod: Prod Raymond please. Thanks

[Enigma]

moooooo!

[Enigma]

Unvote

I really would like tomorrow to be devoted to some good old scum hunting and we need to get away from the shit fest that is VI play and childish bickering. It's already hurting town alot. Needs to stop...

I need some time to think about the best way to proceed with this so that town have the best advantage further down the track in a worse case scenario for whatever occurs today. Suppose I'll do that during the next four hours while I'm stuck in class

[Enigma]

Andrew is actually beginning to get on my nerves.
I always hate playing with people like you (eg: shotty), you guys are just full of so much fail I just want to lynch you regardless if you are scum or not, and most the time all your fail prevents everyone from making an accurate assessment of your alignment.

Now I'm aware I potentially hold the power in deciding who gets lynched today. I find it very curious that Andrew himself has not voted BabySpice to prevent himself from being lynched. I'm not quite sure what to make of that just yet. Need a good reread before I decide.

Hi BabySpice! Nice to meet you! I reckon you're the only one without a penis in this game! How exciting

[Enigma]

Oh hai all. Lucky I went to sleep early last night .. so I could wake up early to the excitement that is this.

Firstly term has started and I'm no longer on holidays so I won't be as frequent as I was for the past few weeks. Reading through all this stuff now.

[Enigma]

On the DP issue against me.
I thought you should know my meta by now, because I recall you pulling the exact same play in a previous game where I flipped town, I'm always careful with my vote, especially when my vote it self could ultimately decide the outcome. So no, I'm not going to put someone at L-1 when I haven't fully read up. and take the risk someone might hammer before I am satisfied with where my vote is.

I'm willing to give Baby Spice the benefit of the doubt, predecessor's actions should always be taken into consideration but I reckon she will do an OK job explaining herself and we should be able to get a read on her.

Where did the silverbullet wagon go? I thought that had potential and I still find silverbullet full of scummy goodness.

Now I'm going to follow through with a read I had a while ago regarding the:
Dickov (DP) vs SD
and
Andrew vs Silverbullet
pairs, where I thought that BOTH of them seemed like a town vs scum arguement. So I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum in the pair, if not both .. so I'm going to take my gamble on scum pairing (so soon I hear your say?)

Shadow Dancer has attacked and voted for both Andrew and Silverbullet. I wouldn't put it past him to try and be on their wagons so if a lynch eventuates it makes him look less scummy.
I also find it curious how he unvoted Ray when he said he was more than willing to hammer and his attack on silverbullet when I pointed out what silver said.
The fact that he has also jumped onto an IC position much more in the past few days when he is under voting pressure makes me nervous. I hope it's not scum trying to manipulate other's view using their position. Not to mention his posts in the past few hours are increasingly fluffy and void of any solid defense and scum hunting.

So my gut says ....

You said you would claim with one more vote.
Claim now. And quickly convince me.
VOTE: Shadow Dancer

I'm going to keep reading in the meantime in preparation for your response/claim.

Never been in a LYLO or such deciding position ... kinda nervous ekk

[Enigma]

Baby spice needs to get off the Joystick wagon and state her views on the Andrew/Shadow wagon now!

[Enigma]

DP vote jumping and finally voting for SD piques my interest.
Especially with my belief of the scum pairing I started above.

[Enigma]

Fuckkkkkkk .. Sorry dude...

I'm not going to take the chance that he might be lying. If someone CC's ... well we can deal with that during day 2.

Unvote

VOTE: Andrew

Baby Spice ... are you still going to hang around on the Hop wagon?

[Enigma]

The real cop if you were scum? In the 50% chance that the real cop exists if you were scum....
But like I said, not going to take the risk.

[Enigma]

Unvote

Just in case Joystick doesn't hammer.
While I consider if I want to jump on the Joystick wagon instead.

[Enigma]

Cos I'm nervous as fuck and trying to spam read 20 pages of mumbo jumbo?

[Enigma]

Andrew enough with the soft claiming. Either claim it or die.

[Enigma]

Tagging to say I am here but I have a very busy weekend ahead of me so posting time will be very limited.

House hunting + Several assignments due next week = A very busy Enigma

[Enigma]

Apologies for the late arrival. I have been inundated with assignments and the end of term in nearing and exams are in sight... mehhh

Anyways...
Usually it is unhealthy to second guess the night kill as it is just a mess of WIFOM but in this case with a claimed cop still alive I feel some discussion is necessary on this issue. David's #740 speculation about the cop claim is spot on imo. If scum assumed his claim to be true (no CC's yet) they would have nightkilled (or roleblocked depending on setup) him. I really doubt that SD would do an Andrew (did someone just see him claim cop in another game as a VT LAWL) or DP because that would just be massive fail of him.

Joystick's following post seems like an attempt at discouraging people logically thinking about the situation and is just full of massive fail and lolzors. And secondly, SD is the IC, I'm sure he would know how to manage whatever situation he is in effectively.

If SD is the real cop, why are people so curious as to knowing who he targeted? Especially since he most likely can't provide an investigation result for night 1. That is just detrimental to the efficiency of a cop and only helps the scum plan their night actions more productively.

I'm hesitant to believe SD's claim considering the leadup to his claim and there remains alot of doubt in my mind that he is likely scum claiming cop but I want to see his response first.

Joystick's vote hopping, pathetic reasoning behind his votes and his day 1 play (hammer issue and scumminess of the previous slot) pings him much higher on my scumdar than SD atm. I feel that he is trying to see who will support a mislynch by testing others and putting down votes on random people with crap reasons.

VOTE: HomJ

Also I would like to remind everyone not to forget the SB vs Andrew argument, I distinctively felt that it was a town vs scum argument and his little commenting on the Andrew flip buys him several scumpoints now.

[Enigma]

Silver's play of accusing anyone who suggests he may be scum of scum makes an appearance again. Well done.

and my number 1 suspect that i was certain was scum... was cop?

This is an absolute joke. How do you not know that he is just fake claiming and why do you make the assumption that he is the real cop?
I see this as a major scumslip. Silver has actually just revealed to us that he knows SD is the cop ... and the only way he knows that is because he knows SD isn't scum with him.
No where in any of silver's posts today does he consider the possibility that it is a fake claim, something that the uninformed majority of townies should all be doubting. He obviously knows more than the rest of us.

Unvote

VOTE: SilverBullet

I tried (I think I just lost all the brain cells I just recovered from taking a break from reading your posts), to make sense of your argument against me.

Also you are hesitant to believe SD's claim, yet you doubt that he is scum claiming cop. Yet you also feel that SD isn't stupid enough to false claim cop.

Lol wow, says the person who has been preaching that everyone is misrepping him.
1. Of course I am going to doubt his claim. Because I have no way of knowing if his claim is true because townies are the uninformed. Assumptions are the pitfall of town failures.
2. If you actually learn to read, I compare him to Andrew and DP who have both claimed town PR's as VT's. Since SD has been a huge critic of DP's action, I really doubt he would do the same himself.

How am I supposed to know it was VI vs VI? This coming from the person who called Andrew scum for most of day 1. From an observers PoV the argument seemed to me as scum vs town. Your just dissapointed that it is true and now Andrew is dead, it is obvious you are the scum.

Also, cops are more effective if they just stand back, gather results and deliver their results in a single crushing blow. If by some miracle the RB is lynched, meaning the cop claim is true and a doc exists, the remaining scum know who the cop may target and can easily snipe a townie that he may be targeting still rendering the cops results useless. What use is it knowing who he targeted when he obviously can't produce any results? ...
Still full of fail .. try harder.

This game was really too easy; we figured it out day 1, just the cop claim delayed our perfect game.

Ohh! All bow down to the prophet that is DP! HAIL DP!

[Enigma]

One last point to laugh at the failing scum that is silver, here refresh your memory with silver not wanting to hammer someone at L-1 and trying to get SD to instead.

shadow, I trust you'll hammer when need be then?

(I ask as I will then not worry about logging in before deadline if so... whenever it is.)

[Enigma]

SB needs to take a chill pill.

I know I'm quite guiltily of insults sometime my mine are much more subtle and can quite often be interpreted in a nicer way.
It doesn't bother me quite as much but it's not necessary to even include all those insults in your arguments.

Points to clarify,
I don't think he is FAKE CLAIMING as a VT. Meaning he is either scum or real.
So of course he can't deliver any results. (it's quite glaringly obvious really I just pity that you can't notice it).

Lastly,
I already noticed your scum slip when I first read through, HomJ's vote jumping just caused it to skip my mind. And then half my case was against the argument you used to attack me.

SILENCE SCUM BAG. YOU WILL PAY FOR YOUR EVIL DEEDS.

[Enigma]

Read all of Silver's posts for yourself and see if you come to the same conclusion as I do, because all I see is him believing that SD's claim is true, and the only way he would know that, is if he is scum.

[Enigma]

Because the basis of your argument against me is pathetic: Me calling you scummy and pointing out slips in your posts makes me fail scum.

Nice scum hunting there bud.

[Enigma]

AtE is not productive.

Tone down your insults please. Thanks.

[Enigma]

Hi Friends!

The SD fake claim was an absolute joke. This coming from the guy who criticized DP's fake claiming play is just horrific hypocrisy.

The quick votes on SD and early Day 2 end was unimpressive. Hell we didn't even had time to hear SD out properly or even wait for your shining star (me obviously) to come back and comment on the failness of SD. But then considering his failness I'm not surprised.

A few things I want to point out.
DP's (and SB's) entire case on me has revolved around me being a scum buddy with SD.
Him continuing that case without stating solid evidence as to why he still views me as scum certainly buys him several scum points.

Keep in mind that he is also an SE, (as too was andrew), so while I disagree with the SE/IC alive=scum tell, it's just some food for thought.

Regardless it is now LYLO ... I shall be looking for a 2 person scum pair now, and I suggest everyone else does the same.
Let's not fuck it up and maximize discussion before anyone foolhardy votes.

[Enigma]

DP would easily be my number 1 scum pick.

I would need to give some thought into the other partner, bear with me while I collate my thoughts.

Firstly at DP who has decided it is necessary to tunnel me for these past few days.
His entire case in the previous days resolved only around me being scum with SD. Because I defended him? And because SD attacked SB due to something I pointed out?
And now that SD has flipped town, he is still attacking me without solid evidence?

Enigma: Buddied up to Shadow Dancer to some extent which I took for them being scum buddies, especially the way he dealt with Silverbullet gave me a scummy read on him. Turns out he was just buddying up to SD and not scum-buddies with him.
Conclusion: Scum

I would actually love to see your reasoning for this conclusion.

Honestly, town would not be so stubborn in their play and would stop to consider all possibilities. Scum don't need this luxury.
We as town need to take the time to make the best informed decision, scum already know who they can lynch for victory.
His erratic play leads me to the conclusion that he is most certainly scum.
PS: If you are going to consider the SB vs me fight, you better take a look at the Dickov vs SD fight Day 1, because if that doesn't convince you, then I pity you.

I also am amused that he asked me to claim first, general popcorn courtesy (and Baby Spice's sheeping) dicates that you either claim first or the players as a majority make a decision as to mass claiming and who should go first. I love how he has taken an executive decision and all you idiot naive townies are just following him to your death. That or probably Spice is just scum buddies with him and trying to cast undue suspicion onto me.

But since I have nothing to hide, Claim: Vanilla Townie. David Parker (fake)claim next please.

As we stand right now, I'm trying to figure out whether Joystick has been semi-busing Enigma or Baby Spice was bussed by Enigma earlier as there has been a lot of distancing there.

Watch this guy manipulate everything you say. He just does it more subtly than Silver. I'm sure I can manipulate everything everyone in this game has said into a "possible" scum tell. Comeon town, I urge you to stop and think for yourself as to who the scum actually are, and don't be mislead by other people, (who are most likely scum).

Based on the current play, I find Baby Spice the most likely to be scum with DP.
She posted not much content Day 2, a pathetic opinionated stance Day 2, but some how surprisingly comes in just in time to deliver the hammer on the IC, before any useful discussion could be made. I honestly do feel she took a huge advantage of the situation the SD got himself into.
She has been focusing on Bhavitgoyal and hasn't even acknowledged his replacement. Honestly I don't find the replacement scummy at all, her case is pretty bad, and actually makes me find Raymond much more scummier than I did before and if she is going to play the replacement card with bhavit, I'm sure I'm going to make it apply to her as well.
Note the soft defense of DP here.
Her logic about the SE/IC scum completely ignores the fact that David is an SE (look at all his other games) and much more experienced than I am.

I'm pretty convinced that those are the 2 scum.

I'm pretty confident in calling Ben town, I don't like his constant reminder about Joystick though? Is there some history between you two that we should know about?

Joystick has been irrational and unprecedented in the game at times, but when the time comes. His play is different, but by no means a scum tell. I have seen him slow down and think things through carefully when the time demands that the most logical decision for town be made.

So my final piece of advice to all my fellow townies, take some time to make the most informed decision you can, don't let other people trying to manipulate you cloud your judgment.

[Enigma]

Hey DP, Maybe you should let the others choose how to apply my little bit of wisdom.
Stop being so worried that it's just going to backfire you on.

[Enigma]

She posted not much content Day 2, a pathetic

opinionated

stance Day 2, but some how surprisingly comes in just in time to deliver the hammer on the IC, before any useful discussion could be made. I honestly do feel she took a huge advantage of the situation the SD got himself into.

Should read unopinionated.
Just check her ISO.

Day 2 play from her is very fluffy and hesitant, yet she doesn't take a second thought when the opportunity to hammer arrives.

[Enigma]

Heh I spent a minute at L-1. Interesting...

Hopefully I don't need to explain how bad his vote just then was, pity his scum buddy just wasn't around to quick hammer me to their victory.

I'm not sure what to make of Joystick's premature vote. If he is town, he very likely could have just screwed us all over.

Curious to note that while DP is calling Baby Spice scum, she hasn't even recognised him, let alone make an effort to defend against his accusations against her.
Nor does she even comment on the fail vote on me which was placed by her scum buddy. She's actually neglected to mention him at all (only a few at the very beginning when she replaced him). Now I do consider her a newbie and I do find it quite likely that is how she would react with her scum partner.

Also her fail logic at how I called someone Ben?
1. If I had scum chat with him, he would probably tell me what name to call him.
2. I'm not sure if she is socially defective or something because Ben is a much more normal name to call someone than "Schrub".
3. Her attempt to try and find petty excuses, to try and generate suspicion on me just proves that she is desperate for a mislynch.
(Did you guys even note my previous argument on her? Her attack of Bhavit and does not even mention the replacement, her replacee slot is scummy as hell too, the connection to DP??)

@Joystick
Did you even take the effort to read my wall? Because if you did you would actually know who I am prepared to vote for.
And don't you care about who ben is willing to vote for?

All it takes for the DP/Spice combo is to convince one of you to vote for me and then the game is lost for town. Don't fucking be persuaded by those 2 scumbags ....

[Enigma]

Moar defence of DP please!

You haven't even mentioned Bhavit's replacement at all. That is fail.
DP's vote and reasoning (this is LYLO herpderp) is just fail. Don't be so sour you guys screwed up the quick hammer.
DP is calling you scum btw which you have yet to acknowledge... but I don't dispute this fact anyways.

I'm waiting on what Joystick and Ben have to say but I'm nearly ready to put my vote down on either Baby Spice or DP.

[Enigma]

Because I'm town and your herpaderpa vote (if your town) will just mean that scum can quick hammer me to victory?

And if you find me suspicious enough to vote in LYLO, why the fuck would you unvote me. Voting for someone in LYLO is pretty much expressing you are willing to see them lynched.
And here we have ben saying you are smart, obviously not.

[Enigma]

I think DP just gimped himself.

His quite vote on my intended for a quick hammer by Baby Spice backfired when HOMJ quickly unvoted.

at this point my scum read is babyspice+enigma. Not much is likely to change that. even your rushed vote in lylo and i still find you town, at first i was like oh dear, unvote. Then i thought about it and saw no reason to drag the day out when i am set on my reads.

Pathetic fucking excuse.

Let's just lay out the scum pairs we all have so we can reference it easier later.
Enigma: David Parker|Baby Spice
David Parker: Enigma|Baby Spice
HoMJ: Baby Spice|David Parker
Ben: Baby Spice|David Parker
Baby Spice: Ben|Enigma

Interesting to note HOMJ hasn't really mentioned much scum pairing since his FOS at the very beginning of the day. Nor did he really explain why he voted me... Geeh food for thought and not helping my boggled brain right now.

[Enigma]

If you include yourself the possibilities goes up from 3! to 4!

I'll just assume you are too lazy to type out all 24 scum pairs in that situation then.

[Enigma]

Actually nvm my maths fail.
My attempt to be a smartass back to fail failed

*Hangs head in shame*

[Enigma]

I laugh at DP fail. I'm convinced.
Good luck for tomorrow if I'm nightkilled.

VOTE: DavidParkerVOTE:

[Enigma]

I'm nearly as fail as DP's scum play lol.
VOTE: DavidParker

[Enigma]

Well I had a look over the thread during night and I'm pretty convinced ben is town. He's been careful with his play, taken time to consider all options which directly reflects the uninformed townie status quo.

Joystick would have been my stronger pick for scum given his risky but very indecisive play over the last few days.
But none of it even comes close to matching up to the scumminess of BS. The buddying to DP is just too obvious to neglect and her entire ISO only seems to confirm to me that she is most likely the last scum.

I just feel that the scum team (DP and BS) set their sights on forcing that mislynch yesterday and didn't prepare for the mess which the fail DP caused. And now with the flip I don't think it can get any more obvious.

I'll let BS comment but it's going to take alot to change my mind.

[Enigma]

The only thing that concerns me about Ben is the surprising amount of fluff in his posts from yesterday and how he failed to comment on many of the events of that day.
It would be nice if you could just clear up that suspicion for me ben. Thanks.

[Enigma]

Hello Pat.

I checked BS's recent posts and it appears she is V/LA this weekend. I'm not even going to consider putting down a vote until she returns and provides a comprehensive analysis of why she played like she did yesterday.

*Waits (not so) patiently for the weekend for finish*

[Enigma]

Spoiler:

[Enigma]

Hey there friends.

I actually spent quite a bit of time wondering why I wasn't NKed because I was fully expecting to.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure. But I can guess.
To win, BS needs to force a mislynch today. And the most probably person she can force a mislynch on is me, due to the suspicion already on me and the fact that she can continue to use the SE argument on me.
I do think Joystick would be much harder to force a mislynch on than me, so that's probably why they left me alive.

The fact stands that the play from BS yesterday, you gotta be blind if you can't see her blatant buddying up to DP. That alone is enough to convince me that the scum is BS and not Ben.
The defence of DP's vote (and calling HoMJ scummy for his unvote, I mean comeon, there is no way you can compare the scumminess of the two)
They both tried to push a case (and mislynch) on me, all they needed to do was to convince one other townie, and you both nearly let them do so.
Her saying "DP is town I am sure." lolfailzors

I also find it amusing that BS has yet to even comment on DP's play and his flip. Nor is she making an effort to defend herself.
As town, I am going apeshit to fulfill my wincon and not let the scum get a mislynch on me. She's pretty much just scum who has given up and resigned to the fact that they blew it yesterday when I wasn't lynched.

[Enigma]

VOTE: BabySpice

Go town!

[Enigma]

What? Schraub was scum? Omg

[Enigma]

1. This is a newbie game. Have some chill the fuck out.

2. Mafia is a team effort. Success is not just judged on how awesome you are, but how well you can express those opinions to other townies and have them believe you.

3. Sure you got one read right. How many reads did you get wrong? Don't let your head get too big now.

4. SB is bad. Your accusation of me relied solely on me being scum with SD. Btw did I mention you were bad?

I'll post the QT and say a few words of scumming from behind the scene if DP consents.

[Enigma]

BTW: http://www.quicktopic.com/cgi-bin/link. ... 57612927.2

Don't ever do that again.

[Enigma]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2558314

[Enigma]

Hit the rational players so hopefully the irrational players would bathe in the confusion of petty arguments.
Also made it much easier for scum to direct the townies who were only applying WIFOM arguements against everyone else.

Also thought you could have been the doc, since we were under the assumption that SD's cop claim was real, we had to snipe the doc.

Personally DP wanted to kill SB if I remember, where as I didn't neither nights but w/e.

[Enigma]

Big man with the insults?

It's just a game calm down. Ohh and stop with the pointless insults please. No need for them now.

Thanks mate.

PS: My post was a general post and not directed at you. Stop being over sensitive about your feelings.

[Enigma]

I'll post the QT and say a few words of scumming from behind the scene if DP consents.

^Read please?

Also I asked you to stop calling me dickhead ... thanks.
I'm usually pretty thickskined because I don't claim to be a saint myself but you are going overboard.

[Enigma]

http://www.quicktopic.com/45/H/A694kMSEPH6

Day 3 was kinda spontaneous play from both of us.

I was a bit mehd the DP continued with heavy bussing but I think we took the opportunity of what happened when it presented itself.
I hadn't planned on bussing DP but with his attack on me, I thought it would be useful to make it seem unlikely that me and DP were a scum pair so I countered.
Honestly if DP wasn't bussing me I do think we could have just forced a mislynch day 3, especially if we didn't kill SB and DP supported me on that. But all is well

Ohh and the SB kill, DP kinda submitted it before I was fully satisfied with the SB target but nvm.

Preview Edit:
Yer name, he did and as soon as I realized I followed with it to make it seem like a BS/DP scum pair.
Honestly I think he left some hints as to what he wanted from me.
EG: Day 1 he asked me if I would bus my scum buddy SD, which I only considering at the time, but did so after said post, forcing SD's fake claim.

Had you lived SB, I think you were just as good a candidate of being lynched as I was.
And I did say stop with the insults earlier SB. Read please.

[Enigma]

Nah godz you played well haha. I was expecting some of the shockers I see in your other games lol.

Where's andrew, I want to lolz at him.

[Enigma]

Andrew do you know who I am?

[Enigma]

It's ZeL1nk you noobshit.

[Enigma]

Nah I asked him to replace in with me when mod was looking for a Dickov replacement.

[Enigma]

OI!

Petty name calling when I've asked you to stop is against forum guidelines.
The QT is a private communication between me and DP. Sorry you had to see it.

However if reading the QT makes you feel more glorified, then go bask in all that glory.

I would have liked to see Joystick night killed, but didn't mind you being nightkilled anyways.

[Enigma]

Lol I like you sig SB.

Change it plzors.

[Enigma]

i am actually quite intelligent its just that i dont get to show it

You mean this one?

[Enigma]

Did you like my night kills excedrin?

I was going to do one for SB but you opened the thread too fast
I'm sure he would have loved it! Full of satirical comedy.

Haha nice to see you post something that's not mod related. You are so emotionless in your posts

[Enigma]

Well I was a bit nervous come LYLO.
Even though I've played several games I always happen to get nightkilled, nor have I played scum for a proper game here before this one.
It's so much easier knowing what to do in LYLO when you aren't actually in it XD.

[Enigma]

I know it's definitely not in context of your quotes but I actually didn't think you would claim cop after:

I mean there

are

uses for a cop softclaim by a VT on D1 - NK-baiting is a valid town tactic. But I absolutely doubt that Andrew would pull

that

off. Hence I do not really know what to make of it, but softclaiming both cop and scum is defefinitely anti-town, if not scummy.
Ray on the other hand seems to have flaked out. I would propose to have him replayced and pressure the hell out of his replacement on D2 and go for an andrew lynch right now.

Unvote. Vote Andrew

@mod: I request a replacement on ray's slot ASAP.

OMG. DP claims more heavily anti town things he's done. Lynch him already! (Note to self: And do not believe any DP claims at all...)

Like this game was the only one were some (supposed) townie (to make this clear: I do not even call Andrew supposed townie, I find him pretty suspicious) ever did something bloodcurdingly stupid.
Just some examples I have seen myself:
- fakeclaiming cop as VT with a guilty on another VT

And I just was under the impression you had a grudge against DP due to the numerous times he has fake claimed as town. XD

The fake claim was a bit unexpected I must say.

[Enigma]

Anyways overall, this game was quite enjoyable.

The activity was great (maybe a bit scary at times on D1) and there was good discussion and interaction. The SE/IC crew were probably a bit hyper active (this includes andrew and godz)
Disappointing to see D2 D3 (especially D2) but that's ok. Also disappointing to see most the initial newbies flake out. Thanks for not flaking out replacements.

Most newbie games I see involve way too much lurking and is quite painful to play at times. Fun to play with peeps who have a good understanding of game mechanics.
It's also nice to actually have a QT where people actually talk. Most QT's I've had are rather bland and scum don't say anything making post game reading quite boring.

[Enigma]

Hhaha I was loving it watching all your arguments and chiping in as a pro town saying it was not beneficial to town and calling it town vs scum The pointless discussion actually allowed scum more control over the game.

Except I kinda got stuck into a silver argument too For some reason it's a bit hard to resist lol. I think strategically it would have been beneficial to avoid it.

[Enigma]

I think I'll stick with my flux flows and Fourier and Complex analysis.

Much easier

[Enigma]

they would kill the cop and rb me

right...

He speaks the truth. We (I) would keep andrew alive just because he is a possible mislynch and helps confuse the town with his andrew-like arguments.

[Enigma]

As for this game, Day 1 was AWESOME. SO much actiivity, and lots of wagons and was just exciting. (Esepcially for scum, because day 1 we looked awesome, ran 3 townies up to L-1, had 2 claim PR's, and lynched one who claimed PR even if he wasnt PR), sure we got misled a lot as scum, but it looked like we were set from day 1. ALL the wagons were on townies, I had distanced myself from enigma by pushing hard for his wagon. Was fun!

Touche!