Newbie 1006 (Game Over|Scum Win)

[Paschendale]

Good morning.

Paschendale here. Just woke up and will be heading off to class shortly. I'll be logging on several times a day, but at sporadic intervals.
I've played several mini mafias (actually modding one right now) on a friend's site. Those games tend to go very quick so the time frame here might take a little getting used to.

Of Zdenek: Random noob vote is not scummy. If he has one friend here, latching on to that friend, even to vote for him, is an act of buddying up, but for non-game reasons. That's a human thing, not a scum thing. I'm gonna need a LOT more convincing if anyone wants my vote on this one... However,

Of Boberz: Trying really hard to get someone hammered ASAP. You're very zealous about scum hunting. On day one, this is the right stance. With nothing else to go on, supporting or opposing you are our only choices. I would side with you to avoid a no lynch, but I'm not eager to jump on a bandwagon this early.

Let's here what other people have to say, and maybe we'll actually find a scum instead of a noob.

[Paschendale]

Let's hear what other people have to say*

[Paschendale]

Now, let's see. I think we should take on of the inexperienced ones because experienced players are more likely to find a scum. It is very unlikely that 2 of the 3 experienced players are mafia, so we will have at least one left at Day2. Boberz and Rydonmower were fighting each other, so it is not very likely they are both scum i think.

VOTE: gaulamos

Bad meta at its finest. Trying to guess what the mod was thinking, especially when roles are assigned randomly, leads to bad choices.

Vote: Wingless

[Paschendale]

I'm aware that my avatar is messed up. I'll fix it when I get home, and I'll have more to say at that point. In class right now.

[Paschendale]

I wasn't aware that waiting until everyone had posted at least once was fence sitting. Since we have twenty days for the first vote, I saw no reason to jump on anyone immediately. Then I saw something worth pointing out.

Boberz's claim that he had discovered the whole answer from three posts was absurd. I suspect he is just using his status and experience here to push his own view. A view that has no merit. Two people, voting for different people, and you have the answer? That's more OMGUS than anything else, and as someone who's supposed to be a role model for the new folks, you should know better. Also, could you actually say WHO you're quoting in your posts? I find myself ignoring almost every point you try to make because you're not being clear.

Rydon's position not to jump on a bandwagon until he actually believes in his position is the correct one. Letting someone lead you by the nose makes you passive. Don't be passive.

This brings me to Wingless. I don't actually think he's scum. I think he's trying to outthink the meta of the game, and that's a stupid position. That's the kind of playing that is weak for town. That's why I voted him. You have to root out the weak townies in order to get at the scum. So, I stand by my position. Wingless is trying to do everything except analyze what people are saying. If you want someone who really isn't taking a stand, look at him. His contributions have been bad math and an OMGUS vote.

[Paschendale]

Also, could you actually say WHO you're quoting in your posts? I find myself ignoring almost every point you try to make because you're not being clear.

I will in future. But dont ignore, go and find out.

Aside from that Pasch is clearly wrong.

Back that up, or are you just blustering about? There's no substance to your arguments either. Wingless is new and isn't expected to know better. You're just blowing a lot of hot air and hoping that you'll be followed if you yell louder.

You know what, you convinced me. You're a bigger threat than Wingless. And Zdenek makes a good point. Hopefully Wingless will shape up. You have no such excuse Boberz.

Unvote

Vote Boberz

[Paschendale]

My points, in short.

1. I didn't want to vote right away. I wanted to at least wait until everyone had posted once, just so I knew who was in the game. That's not scummy, that's just taking things a little slowly.

2. I voted Wingless because the only other major arguments going on weren't leading anywhere and I wanted to try another direction. I actually did think his point was foolish, even if it is mathematically true. If you keep those numbers in your head, you tunnel your vision and you ignore things that don't fit it. That's a bad position to play from. So, I killed two birds with one stone. I started a discussion, and I called out some bad play.

3. There is nothing anti-town about what I've done. I called "bull" on some bad arguments, and put forth an argument of my own. At this point, I'm not sure enough of anyone's status to make a claim of town or scum. I'll put out a few thoughts, and maybe try to put pressure on someone. My pressure of Wingless is done, so I'll move on.

That's all the points against me. Waiting until my second post to vote, and calling out Wingless on a bad idea. I firmly stand that Boberz is just trying to hammer someone, and doesn't care who. That's been his position from the start. It is essential to kill someone on day 1, but doing it in such a haphazard way isn't the correct one, nor is retracting each accusation and throwing yourself at a new one, as he has done. Overzealous attacks like this are a great cover for one dominant scum who wants to keep his partner in the shadows. He's not scum hunting, he's blowing hot air.

[Paschendale]

I'm certain that Boberz is exagerrating a little. There's nothing in the rules that states: "BE 100% SERIOUS AT ALL TIMES OR I START KILLING PUPPIES". Read that post again without thinking he's serious and you'll see what I mean.

I don't just speak of his first post.

Thank you, I was trying to demonstrate this by doing rather than saying.

Do as I do and all that.

On that point what do you make of the game so far Zach

Any thoughts Zach?

Twice he refuses to put his money where his mouth is and asks for support of his decisions. Boberz doesn't even believe in his positions enough to find support himself, so he tries to link himself to someone else and rely on them to prove for him.

And then he threatens me for noticing what he's doing. Again, not putting his money where his mouth is. If he really thought I was scum, he'd move in the for kill. Instead he's trying to get someone else to do it to try and foster the idea that people should listen to him.

[Paschendale]

You liar. You dirty stinking rabid smelling liar.

You know this is tosh.

Andrew you are a fool. I am clearly not suggesting I hit scum on the 4th post am I? I am clearly just ensuring we dont enter RVS, and making sure we get some nice info and proper bandwagons.OMGUS doesnt work andrew, I dont care for wiki tells at all tbh. Furthermore is it really OMGUS, were you really attacking me am I really likely to get scared as either faction after your two posts.

Also keep in mind his snarky little comments inside his quotes, calling people fools and "idiot who can't play mafia". He's flipping out, losing his cool, and relying on insults rather than arguments.

That, my friend, is anti-town. Playing on emotions rather than thinking through the issue. He's not gonna find scum this way, but he'll sure as hell get someone lynched for challenging him. That kind of play doesn't help town, it only helps him survive and dominate. He'll sacrifice townies who disagree with him in order to make himself feel stronger.

You wanted to know what my case was, Wisa? I've told you twice already. I've shown you what Boberz is going to do for the rest of the game, and how it's incredibly beneficial to him, and hinders town. Beating up on people doesn't flush out scum. Scum know not to engage so hard. Townies who disagree are the ones who'll fight back, as I am right now. Boberz is trying to kill the competition, not the scum. His position is geared towards ensuring that he lives longer and isn't lynched himself. Isn't that exactly what scum try to do?

[Paschendale]

Edit: The post chopped off the top of my comments. It should begin with:

You know that "getting angry and defensive" that you were talking about, Wisa?

[Paschendale]

Has anyone else noted that Boberz has also been at L-2 for a while? Other than his buddy Wisa falling over himself to back up everything Boberz has said, there hasn't been much defense of him at all. Several of us are calling him out for making plays that aren't helpful to finding scum and his only answers have been more insults. That's not being a team player. That's being a lone wolf. We know there's no vig or sk roles here, so being out for yourself doesn't help anyone.

I'm curious, Wisa, other than stating that I'm wrong and Boberz is right (which is an opinion, not a fact), what exactly is your argument against me? I haven't seen any proof from you, or even contention that I've tried to get a town lynched, or done anything to muddy scumhunting, or tried to keep anyone confused. All I see is "omg, you're wrong and Boberz is right."

For my money, Wisa is just watching out for his scum buddy.

[Paschendale]

OK, I'll post here some important things. My mother language is not English so i am probably going to do worse post analysis than you. I do not have much time at the moment, but i will have on the weekend. I think I'll read this forum better than now.
This is my first online mafia game, so i am fairly bad. But this has some positive sides: mafia will not want my head as soon as yours. OK, i am a bad player that can't do much post analysis. Then teach me! I am not going to imporve much during this game but i think experience will come at the end. I still think mafia is more excited about the game so mafias will be more likely fairly active than others, so my vote remains on Paschendale.

Sorry for going off on you so hard, Wingless. It wasn't really friendly and I was frustrated. I meant to point out the fallacy of your stance, but I didn't mean to hit you so hard. Glad to see you're committed to improving.

However, the notion that mafia will be more active than town doesn't often ring true, either. Getting town to fight each other is a good scum stance, as is leading witch hunts on townies. That's one of those second guesses that seldom pan out.

[Paschendale]

Also, could you actually say WHO you're quoting in your posts? I find myself ignoring almost every point you try to make because you're not being clear.

I will in future. But dont ignore, go and find out.

Aside from that Pasch is clearly wrong.

Back that up, or are you just blustering about? There's no substance to your arguments either. Wingless is new and isn't expected to know better. You're just blowing a lot of hot air and hoping that you'll be followed if you yell louder.

You know what, you convinced me. You're a bigger threat than Wingless. And Zdenek makes a good point. Hopefully Wingless will shape up. You have no such excuse Boberz.

Unvote

Vote Boberz

Bigger threat? What do you mean by that?

I said he was a threat because the combination of reckless assaults on people and the attempts to influence others to follow without casting votes himself seems more like manipulation than fervor. His attacks come across as ingenuine and, as I said, aimed more at cementing his position than in actually killing the right people. Laying grounds to control the votes, while theoretically pro-town, is only so if the person is a) actually town and b) correct in his accusations. His unwillingness and inability to actually back up his claims and lay votes himself does not show real belief in his stances, nor genuine scum hunting. His actions are inherently self-centered, rather than group-centered. Scum's objective is to protect themselves. Town's objective is to kill the right people. His goal is just to kill the people he chooses, whether they be innocent or guilty. That's scummy.

[Paschendale]

(which is an opinion, not a fact),

This is where you are really wrong. Take a deep breath imagine both Wisa and I are town for a second and you will realise it does all make sense our way as well and you have your scumtinted glasses on.

attempts to influence others

This is a protown thing to do. I dont care what you say I am right.

His unwillingness and inability to actually back up his claims

Which claims?

His goal is just to kill the people he chooses, whether they be innocent or guilty.

Dirty rotten liar. Dirty rotten liar. Dirty rotten liar.

Go and quote one place where I have said I am just going to kill innocents. You will fail. Because I didnt. You are wrong,you are an embarrasment to town and should just dig a hole and sit in it. Take a laptop with you and reread the thread while your at it.

Lots of rage with no substance. Keep in mind, you're defending yourself at L-2, and you're doing a terrible job of it.

[Paschendale]

Keep in mind, you're defending yourself at L-2, and you're doing a terrible job of it.

I was mistaken here. Zdenek changed his vote. Still, other than insults and whining, Boberz has offered no defense and no proof to his claims. I'd hate to imagine the string of wailing and profanity we'll see when you're closer to being lynched...

[Paschendale]

Thanks, Zdenek. I misread the chart... twice apparently. He voted for you, not you for him... @_@

I'd like to point this out. Twice Boberz has said that if I don't back off, he's going to try to get me lynched. His rationale is that I am challenging him, not that I'm scum. He doesn't want someone who'll disagree with him, even when there is no proof that person is scum. He's in just as much hot water as I am, except he's just ranting and yelling, and misunderstanding my posts... I'm offering a conclusion based on his consistent attitude.

If he was town and thought I was scum, he'd move in for the kill. Instead, he's trying to get me to back down so I don't pursue lynching him. Self-preservation, without a serious attempt to kill someone you claim to be scum? Sounds pretty scum to me.

[Paschendale]

I've pointed out the only two people acting scummy, and why they are. Boberz is playing passive-aggressively, and Wisa is trying awfully hard to defend him on extremely flimsy grounds. Wisa's initial vote for me was based on my attack on Wingless, which I have even admitted was a poor attempt to bait him. Since then, Wisa and Boberz have continued to attack me, based on emotional rantings, as opposed to any actual logic. Wisa has not accounted for my admission that attacking Wingless was wrong, he still continues to say that I'm scummy for attacking Boberz. He does not, however, explain why this is scummy. Just that he thinks it is.

Let me reinforce this. Wisa's initial reason for voting for me has been dealt with. Instead of adding constructive dialogue, he has circled the wagons and thrown himself into protecting Boberz. None of us have proof enough to protect someone with that kind of zeal. Except for the scum team.

I have explained this three times now and am truly confounded that I am confronted with posts asking what my argument is or when I'm going to defend myself. My defense is already done. I apologized to Wingless, since he's brand new and I'm used to much more aggressive games. One vote, especially when it is bait, is hardly trying to kill someone. And whether or not Wingless looks town now, my attack came after his first post. No one could be sure of anything then. And honestly, no one is sure about Wingless. He hasn't said much.

I have explained multiple times how Boberz' attacks are unfounded and bullyish, rather than actually proving why anyone is scummy. He's used idle threats, delaying tactics, and even a "why me" whine when he claimed that he is often railroaded on day 1. I've quoted him several times and shown his belligerence and lack of proof. I have also pointed out how this position is more self-centered and less team-centered, and we all know that is a scum position. I'm sorry if you misread my comments as "fluff", but I'm actually showing you a pattern.

I don't see any problem in not rushing to a lynch, we do have time to make sure we are doing the right thing in lynching you.
I also don't think Boberz is trying to get you to back down from him, what he's probably doing is reminding you that, if you're town, you should be hunting scum. You have not presented real evidence against him. He's agressive? yes, that makes him scum? no.
Also i haven't saw any post from you where you tryed to scumhunt him (or anyone else for that matter).

I'm accustomed to much faster games, where a day usually lasts 48 hours. That's probably why I'm coming across as impatient.

I am hunting scum. I'm pointing out the only two people who are acting like scum. Boberz is trying to insinuate himself in a position of power (a defensive, survival based move) and Wisa is protecting him (a scumbuddy move). I'm sorry if you don't find this "real" scumhunting. What would you like me to be doing instead? Trying to attack people I think are town? I don't think you're scum. I don't think Zdenek is scum. I have no real reason to suspect Wingless, Andew, or Rydon. Maybe Zach since he's been extremely cautious thus far. But I must remind myself that we are in no hurry.

If my position is still unclear, then just go ahead and lynch me. And when I flip town, I hope you'll have the wisdom to go after Boberz and Wisa, the scum team.

[Paschendale]

Can someone please explain to Wisa, slowly and in small words, how I have already answered his questions. Over and over.

Changing your mind about something isn't flip-flopping. It's being human. My first post, I didn't see anything I wanted to attack, then I did. Hypocrisy is when your actions contradict one another. Mine have not done so.

My attitude is not anti-town. I overreacted towards Wingless, entirely based on frustrations about other things not related to this game. I was mad about other stuff and that showed in some of my posts on page 2. There is no mood that shows scum.

Honestly, I'm tired of arguing with you two. I'm certainly not going to convince you to vote yourselves, so I'll move on.

Zach, you're an experienced member and your opinion seems to be highly regarded. You agreed with me that trying to out think the mod was a bad position. I'm sure you'd agree that I went off too hard and ranted a bit. You've been very critical of me thus far, but have not actually questioned Boberz (who has just as many votes on him) on his actions. Do you really see absolutely nothing in my points? Do they not make any sense to you at all? I was critical of Boberz on my first post (the one that got me accused of fence sitting) because I thought he was being too reckless and tossing out bull. I contend that he has continued that trend. I also contend that Wisa's criticism of me, even if true by the acts he presents, are completely overblown in their scope. My actions might be slightly problematic, but hardly as damning as he claims. Exaggeration to this degree is a lie.

Andrew and Zdenek have been also been critical of Boberz' actions. And, in fact, we both sit in the same situation. I have 3 votes against me, with Boberz threatening to be a fourth. Boberz has 3 votes against him, with Zdenek suspicious of him but not yet voted for him. The only strong difference is that Boberz needs to get someone else onto the wagon, because he can't rely on scum to hammer me, because he and Wisa will only make 4.

Zdenek, could you please elaborate on your reasons to suspect Boberz, but maintain your vote elsewhere?

Wingless, as I said before, I'm sorry for jumping on you so hard. I realize that was a harsh way to begin your first game. Do you still find my actions scummy? Do you think I'm working against the group? Am I trying to spread confusion? Or am I revealing the scum?

[Paschendale]

I said he was a threat because the combination of reckless assaults on people and the attempts to influence others to follow without casting votes himself seems more like manipulation than fervor. His attacks come across as ingenuine and, as I said, aimed more at cementing his position than in actually killing the right people.

Laying grounds to control the votes, while theoretically pro-town, is only so if the person is a) actually town and b) correct in his accusations.

His unwillingness and inability to actually back up his claims and lay votes himself does not show real belief in his stances, nor genuine scum hunting. His actions are inherently self-centered, rather than group-centered. Scum's objective is to protect themselves. Town's objective is to kill the right people. His goal is just to kill the people he chooses, whether they be innocent or guilty. That's scummy.

When you use words like threat, I tend to see your arguments from a scum POV. It gives me the sense that you're viewing him in terms of being a threat as opposed to being interested in figuring out his alignment. This bothers me.

The bolded portion has a few problems.

A player trying to control votes is null. (The logic and nature of the arguments being made is far more important.)

You can't know a) for sure if you're town, and b) is burden of proficiency. in that you're qualifying a statement that leading the town can only be pro-town if it catches scum. There's a whole slew of problems with that mindset.

I'm saying that being a leader, rather than actually being right, is not pro-town. Townies should be willing to sacrifice themselves to hunt the real bad guys. Boberz's playstyle has been much more defensive than that. He's trying to keep his hands clean.

When I said he was a threat, I was referring to his recklessness and haphazard playstyle. There have been two pages of argument since then where I have refined my position from "I think he's bad" to "I see him as scum". By page 2, there was no reason to think anyone was scum over anyone else. But by challenging him, I forced him to show his hand. And his hand was that he is more concerned with opposing my challenge of him than in rooting out scum.

I also note that in the very same paragraph you quote, where I view "him in terms of being a threat as opposed to being interested in figuring out his alignment", I go on to discuss his alignment, with my proof for it, in the very next sentence. Seriously, are you actually reading my posts or just cherrypicking for things to complain about? Your initial vote for me was because of my vote for Wingless, and now you're just grasping at thin air. Even the quotes you choose invalidate your arguments.

[Paschendale]

Where'd Pasch go?

Law library. I'm a first year law student. Takes up most of my time. I've only been able to read through the thread twice in the last few days. When I have some time to collect my thoughts and piece stuff together, I'll weigh in on the new discussions. But my exam on Tuesday is gonna get higher priority.

[Paschendale]

Looking back over Andrew's comments, they seem to indicate a lack of proficiency in English, rather than any ulterior motives. His grammar and spelling are atrocious. There's not much coherent argument about anything and while that could be some kind of confusion-causing tactic, it seems pretty dumb.

Wingless, on the other hand, claims to be modding a game and yet fails to understand a lot of basic concepts. His ignorance seems forced, rather than genuine. While I don't perfectly understand the meaning of WIFOM, I at least went to the wiki to look it up. Seems like he's trying awfully hard to suggest bad ideas and stymie conversations.

[Paschendale]

The wingless situation is interesting... but I'm more interested in Pasch right now. As attention and votes shift to Wingless, Pasch's presence in the game is nonexistent.

I already weighed in an opinion about Andrew and Wingless. But I don't feel the need to repeat myself. If I see something worth noting I will. Also, the normal day for me is only checking the thread 1-3 times. On a particularly free day I would be present more often. Even when arguing with Boberz, I wasn't checking the thread terribly often, I just posted each time I did, sometimes more than once. I haven't felt the need to do so in the last couple of days.

Wingless' contention that he will now drop the noob act is suspicious as hell, since it means he was intentionally trying to deceive the whole group prior to this. I also note that his grammar and spelling suddenly improved. Any suspicions of anyone else aside, I now KNOW that Wingless was lying.

[Paschendale]

Consider the hammer fallen. I know for a certainty that Andrew is not a doc.

unvote
Vote Andrew

[Paschendale]

Just pretend that I formatted those boldings correctly and it looked like this.

unvote
Vote Andrew

[Paschendale]

Just to be absolutely clear, I'm counter-claiming. Because I'm the real doc.

[Paschendale]

The timing of my vote was that I had to catch a train and go to school. Up until the role claim from Andrew, I thought he was just stupid. Then he lied. I am the only person with actual proof that he's lying, and everyone who had made arguments against Andrew had already voted. Considering how hyper focused on me Wisa has been, I wasn't really expecting such a quick turnaround from him.

As to my own survival, I guess the scum could weigh the odds as to whether or not I will protect myself tonight. But since I'm such an obvious target, it's probably what I'm going to do.