Newbie 1006 (Game Over|Scum Win)

[Zachrulez]

Hey, I'm your IC for this game. IC is short for inexperience challenged, which is another nice way of saying that I've been here longer than the rest of you. I'm basically here for the benefit of people who are new to the site and might not be exactly sure how things are done, and my function is basically to show how it's done.

What's important to know about the IC role is that I take on 2 roles in the game. As an IC, I am required to teach game theory and to answer questions posed to me about the game, how it's played, game theory/ect. It's also important to know that I also take on the role the mod pmed me, and that I will be playing to my win condition as well, regardless of what that may be.

I'll jump right in and answer the questions posed by boberz.

A few questions:

How much mafia have you played?

My experience on this site spans around 40-50 games, and I have about another 20 in addition to that offsite.

How often are you planning to be online to play?

I'm online, but oddly enough, most of my reading and posting get done while I'm at work and are dependent on how busy or slow things are at work. Still I aim to be available to post every day if need be.

Who are you going to vote for?

Right now I'm going to

Vote: Paschendale

Post 27 is fence sitting at it's finest. Supporting and opposing Boberz are not the only possible options at this point in the game. You can also look at the reactions to Boberz vote as well, or take your own stance on someone else's play to this point.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, if you don't have an avatar, I would highly recommend getting one. Image association with posts works a lot better than keeping track of what name is making what post.

[Zachrulez]

Any thoughts Zach?

I think you're reading too much into Andrew and Zdenek's RVS votes. People don't always cast votes that are truly random but rather arbitrary. You'll often see it done with reasoning similar to what they came up with. (My read on both is pretty null)

Based on what both players actually did, I would have expected your vote to go on Andrew. (Though you seem to have misinterpreted Zdenek's apology post, and I can understand the vote based on how you explained your interpretation of the post.)

Out of that whole exchange I Rydon's reaction the most interesting, in that he seems to find your misinterpretation scummy. (An assertion I don't agree with.) As such, I raise an eyebrow to him.

Also, Bandwagoning isn't scummy, if we never bandwagoned, we'd never be able to lynch.

[Zachrulez]

This brings me to Wingless. I don't actually think he's scum. I think he's trying to outthink the meta of the game, and that's a stupid position. That's the kind of playing that is weak for town. That's why I voted him. You have to root out the weak townies in order to get at the scum. So, I stand by my position. Wingless is trying to do everything except analyze what people are saying. If you want someone who really isn't taking a stand, look at him. His contributions have been bad math and an OMGUS vote.

I don't see how pressuring or possibly lynching a player you have a town read on is ever going to be a good idea.

[Zachrulez]

Also, could you actually say WHO you're quoting in your posts? I find myself ignoring almost every point you try to make because you're not being clear.

I will in future. But dont ignore, go and find out.

Aside from that Pasch is clearly wrong.

Back that up, or are you just blustering about? There's no substance to your arguments either. Wingless is new and isn't expected to know better. You're just blowing a lot of hot air and hoping that you'll be followed if you yell louder.

You know what, you convinced me. You're a bigger threat than Wingless. And Zdenek makes a good point. Hopefully Wingless will shape up. You have no such excuse Boberz.

Unvote

Vote Boberz

Bigger threat? What do you mean by that?

[Zachrulez]

andrew94, regarding the post you made about boberz role fishing with the "cop out" comment and trying to figure out who to vote for, who to hammer and what people's voting patterns will be with his three questions, do you actually believe what you said, and if so why, or are you just playing stupid or a third option?

im serious about the cop out comment.
why the phrase'cop out' just say fucking WHY NOT VOTING

instead he say cop out which is often related more likely to the cop
and then he says ' o it means not voting'

i say whatever

... what?

[Zachrulez]

tl;dr version

Paschendale, at this point I'm convinced that it doesn't matter whether or not you're town or scum. You need to be policy lynched because you have hypocritical stances, you make horrible arguments with terrible logic on the weakest premises and you have a proven anti-town attitude. This kind of play is detrimental to the town no matter who's side you're on. Everyone should vote you today for this reason.

For the purposes of bandwagon analysis it matters. A policy lynch allows people to hop onto the wagon with your policy reason, making analysis and review a lot harder in subsequent days. Policy lynches get a big frowny face.

[Zachrulez]

I said he was a threat because the combination of reckless assaults on people and the attempts to influence others to follow without casting votes himself seems more like manipulation than fervor. His attacks come across as ingenuine and, as I said, aimed more at cementing his position than in actually killing the right people.

Laying grounds to control the votes, while theoretically pro-town, is only so if the person is a) actually town and b) correct in his accusations.

His unwillingness and inability to actually back up his claims and lay votes himself does not show real belief in his stances, nor genuine scum hunting. His actions are inherently self-centered, rather than group-centered. Scum's objective is to protect themselves. Town's objective is to kill the right people. His goal is just to kill the people he chooses, whether they be innocent or guilty. That's scummy.

When you use words like threat, I tend to see your arguments from a scum POV. It gives me the sense that you're viewing him in terms of being a threat as opposed to being interested in figuring out his alignment. This bothers me.

The bolded portion has a few problems.

A player trying to control votes is null. (The logic and nature of the arguments being made is far more important.)

You can't know a) for sure if you're town, and b) is burden of proficiency. in that you're qualifying a statement that leading the town can only be pro-town if it catches scum. There's a whole slew of problems with that mindset.

[Zachrulez]

I'm saying that being a leader, rather than actually being right, is not pro-town. Townies should be willing to sacrifice themselves to hunt the real bad guys. Boberz's playstyle has been much more defensive than that. He's trying to keep his hands clean.

When I said he was a threat, I was referring to his recklessness and haphazard playstyle. There have been two pages of argument since then where I have refined my position from "I think he's bad" to "I see him as scum". By page 2, there was no reason to think anyone was scum over anyone else. But by challenging him, I forced him to show his hand. And his hand was that he is more concerned with opposing my challenge of him than in rooting out scum.

I also note that in the very same paragraph you quote, where I view "him in terms of being a threat as opposed to being interested in figuring out his alignment", I go on to discuss his alignment, with my proof for it, in the very next sentence. Seriously, are you actually reading my posts or just cherrypicking for things to complain about? Your initial vote for me was because of my vote for Wingless, and now you're just grasping at thin air. Even the quotes you choose invalidate your arguments.

But you say here.

This brings me to Wingless. I don't actually think he's scum. I think he's trying to outthink the meta of the game, and that's a stupid position. That's the kind of playing that is weak for town. That's why I voted him. You have to root out the weak townies in order to get at the scum. So, I stand by my position. Wingless is trying to do everything except analyze what people are saying. If you want someone who really isn't taking a stand, look at him. His contributions have been bad math and an OMGUS vote.

And then this here.

You know what, you convinced me. You're a bigger threat than Wingless. And Zdenek makes a good point. Hopefully Wingless will shape up. You have no such excuse Boberz.

[Zachrulez]

You can say you went on to discuss his alignment, but what I'm really saying is that I don't see you genuinely interested in figuring out his alignment, as your statement about Wingless displays that you were happy pressuring him initially even though you didn't think he was scum. You rationalize Wingless as town and a threat.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, you're an experienced member and your opinion seems to be highly regarded. You agreed with me that trying to out think the mod was a bad position. I'm sure you'd agree that I went off too hard and ranted a bit. You've been very critical of me thus far, but have not actually questioned Boberz (who has just as many votes on him) on his actions. Do you really see absolutely nothing in my points? Do they not make any sense to you at all? I was critical of Boberz on my first post (the one that got me accused of fence sitting) because I thought he was being too reckless and tossing out bull. I contend that he has continued that trend. I also contend that Wisa's criticism of me, even if true by the acts he presents, are completely overblown in their scope. My actions might be slightly problematic, but hardly as damning as he claims. Exaggeration to this degree is a lie.

1. I don't have to find everything you say and do to be scummy in order to find you scummy.

2. I don't find Boberz play scummy.

If you're town, you're in danger of tunneling on Boberz. Your case in it's present form doesn't convince me that Boberz is scum. You need to evaluate the value of your points against him and either come forth with a better more clarified case, or start looking elsewhere for scum.

If you're town... if not, please continue, because in that scenario the wagon on you is taking us in the right direction.

[Zachrulez]

And, we could explain some strategy about what our cops or doctors should do. We are likely to have at least one of them. Ok, it is clear that the maffia may kill me becouse of this maybe doctor or cop post, but it is a serious thing. Who should they investigate or protect in your opinion?

Rolefishing.

[Zachrulez]

Given that we're playing with newbie, I'll explain that the post is rolefishing because pr discussion leads to pr tells being dropped.

[Zachrulez]

On another note as I've progressed in my mafia experience I've come to hate the FOS and wish it was something that would go away. If you do a good job at communicating your suspicions, it's not necessary anyway.

More annoying is when I see HOS used. Neither acronym really means that much to me and I don't really take suspicions stated with them anymore seriously than any other stated suspicion without a vote.

[Zachrulez]

hard to tell if it's a scum move, or a bad play from a new player

Hits it on the head. If the action was done by a more experienced player, I would be voting them because they know better and the chance of a scumflip is high. In the case of a newbie rolefishing, it's hard to determine whether or not it's intentional because they might not know any better.

[Zachrulez]

Where'd Pasch go?

[Zachrulez]

As town, we should probably start to focus our attention and come to a decision about who to hang because it might take a while to get enough people on board. So, lets start with the person who's been most in question lately, and who's around to defend himself:

Should we vote to hang wingless?

If this is premature, I'll drop it.

Mafia is as much about the positions you take as it is the information you get from lynching. (Which means taking your own position, not assessing what your position SHOULD be.)

[Zachrulez]

The wingless situation is interesting... but I'm more interested in Pasch right now. As attention and votes shift to Wingless, Pasch's presence in the game is nonexistent.

[Zachrulez]

Post quantity /= Post quality.

[Zachrulez]

I need to re-read. My time is kinda limited right now, but it shouldn't take too long once I get a free moment.

[Zachrulez]

I can get behind a wingless wagon. Rolefishing on day 1, and general lack of scumhunting through the course of the game (most recently demonstrated in his response to Boberz vote.) make him likely to be scum.

Vote: Wingless

[Zachrulez]

In addition 295 really bothers me.

[Zachrulez]

You mentioned copout on many occasions after the event as well. Even flipantly using it as an example of your bad english (your english is not bad btw)

To be fair to Gaul, as he seems to reside in a non english speaking country, the term cop out is an idiom of the english langauge, and if you're not a native speaker it's a term that would likely be taken literally.

As for your case on him. I'm really not seeing it. Flip flopping isn't a scumtell, but the way flip flopping is done can be. If you think he's flip flopping on you in a scummy manner, I haven't seen much that actually demonstrates how it is.

Also Re: wingless wagon. You don't decide on the lynch beyond your own vote. If you think wingless is a bad wagon, you need to explain why. You can't just try to strong arm people against the wagon.

[Zachrulez]

Okay, I agree with Boberz that wingless is an easy mislynch.

Unvote Wingless

Wingless, this unvote does not mean that I have ceased to be suspicious of you, it just means that I am looking for better ideas. If I don't find one, my vote will be back on to you.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

[Zachrulez]

315 tries to have it both ways. Both backing down from Wingless suspicion while keeping other options open, but stating suspicion of him at the same time.

[Zachrulez]

I accept he may have misunderstood originally but there was no need to harp on about it over and over again. It is a strange person who harps on about an inadvertant miscommunication that hampered towns chances of winning.

His flipflopping on me is scummy because of the way I tried to lead town and how aggressive in early game. This tied into how he hung onto my coatails on the andrew active lurking and he then made up some absolute crap on andrew. Check gaul's andrew case for yourself it is twaddle.

I do not want wingless lynched it is not a softclaim if that is what you are thinking but I have a strong town read on him. He was not rolefishing if I remember correctly. ANd the iwngless wagon is one of those mislynch wagons that always appears against a newbie when town run out of ideas. Gaul better be the lynch today.

Looking back on the flip flopping, I can see what you mean. He attacks you early for your aggressive play, but then rides a point you made as an excuse to vote for Andrew.

I don't feel as strongly about the point as you do, (Newbies tend to sheep a lot in contradiction to things they might necessarily say.) but it's a legitimate point and I can understand your suspicion better now.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez:
A man that has never been really scumhunting. He charged me with several things and joined the bandwagon. I reread all of zachrulez's posts and I think he's the one I think is the most likely to be scum now.

UNVOTE VOTE: Zachrulez

Accusing me of not scumhunting is as rich coming from you as it is patently untrue.

[Zachrulez]

I said that because of the reasoning for his unvote, not because I "want your blood."

[Zachrulez]

Besides, look at your play at the point that I voted you. Can you say that the things I listed regarding your play are untrue?

Perhaps you can argue you weren't rolefishing, but you certainly hadn't been scumhunting.

[Zachrulez]

I said that because of the reasoning for his unvote, not because I "want your blood."

This probably isn't clear enough. I find his unvote post scummy.

[Zachrulez]

Is there merit in going for yellow bounder? If he is lurking we will get him tomorrow, I say we get gaul off now though.

Yellowbounder had some Laptop issues and is going to need about one day(starting now) to get it fixed. He is not lurking intentionally, I know how stupid laptops can be at times.

Please be patient with him.

I have to say this as an IC because some of the players here might mod a game/s on the site someday, but actively defending a player's absence from the game as a mod like this is poor form.

[Zachrulez]

Anyway,

Unvote: Vote: Zdenek

I'll have more on this later as I'm pressed for time now, but the short version of it is that I'm not liking his play at all and he seems more interested in pushing wagons and lynches along, vs genuinely determining player's alignments.

[Zachrulez]

The mod is not meant to respond to an in game post as if he is an active participant in the game.

But the damage is already done, so this is all I will say on the matter until the game is over.

Yellowbounder is pretty much cleared now, so I will have another look at his wagon earlier today in light of this now.

[Zachrulez]

The mod basically responded to an in game post by boberz that entertained the notion of lynching him for lurking by pointing out that he's not lurking intentionally.

[Zachrulez]

He's not 100% cleared per say, but I find it extremely unlikely that the mod would defend a scum player that's lurked as much as bounder's slot has unless he was actually town.

[Zachrulez]

I have to agree that was a ridiculous vote on Gaul's part. He hasn't shown the slightest interest in Zdenek until now, and his previous interactions with Zdenek are a cause for concern.

[Zachrulez]

Claim gaul.

[Zachrulez]

^ Willing to hammer

[Zachrulez]

Vote Zachrulez

He promised to present an argument against me, but never did, and then switched over to Gaul because Gaul voted for me.

I think he was never serious about finding me suspicious in the first place, and took the opportunity to bus Gaul at the last minute.

I can still make that argument. All you had done over the course of day 2 was pretty much support the popular wagon, and contradict your previous suspicions as you did.

All that said, Gaul's jump was horrible, but I'm not sure I trust that hammer that came without waiting for a claim either.

[Zachrulez]

At any rate, the above on Zdenek is moot now. He's not scum, Razgriz probably isn't either. That only leaves Wingless and Wisakedjak

Vote: Wingless

[Zachrulez]

Anyway, in retrospect of the way the day went down, I realize that I do look pretty bad for the positions I ended up in at the middle and the end of the day based on Gaul's flip.

With that in mind, I'm going to claim and put all my info on the table.

I'm the town cop

I investigated Boberz on night 1, despite any indication to the contrary, I didn't feel like I had a good read on him. The result I got on him should be obvious as he's dead now and flipped town. You can read through day 2 and make note of the fact that I never showed any interest in lynching him at all. (Note when I was critical of him in our disagreement over Gaul, that the tone was merely of disagreement and that I voiced no suspicion of him.)

Night Two I investigated Zdenek, because of previously stated suspicion on him. Despite Gaul's horrible jump, I felt like that kind of play still had potential to be a bus. He came up town, so he's clear now.

I regret to say that I was lazy when it came to bringing out the case on Zdenek, but I can point out what bothered me.

Vote Yellowbounder

I was suspicious of Rydonmower at the start, and I find it odd that Yellowbounder didn't comment on Paschendale when he entered the game, and barely on wingless. It could have been that he saw those two as easy mislynches and wanted to distance himself from them.

Yellowbounder was never really very active, so I found it of note that this case is pretty weak and speculative as Yellowbounder never really got much into the game.

Well, I'm still waiting to hear from Yellowbounder, and I guess it is unlikely that were going to get any more support for his lynch for the time being.

I agree with the statements that Boberz is making about Gaulamos, but, unless I am missing something, it seems that the best argument he has against him is that he's been wishy-washy. I think this sort of behaviour is more excusable than what Wingless was up to day one.

I still think Wingless is suspicious. For all the reasons from day one, and I'd also like to draw attention to this post in response to Boberz' case on Gaulamos.

Your words were good and useful.

I see this as blatant buddying with the most outspoken person in the game, so he is avoiding doing any work himself, and if the case is wrong, he can just plead ignorance.

Unvote Yellowbounder
Vote Wingless

Didn't like the sudden backoff on Yellowbounder there. It felt like he was trying to get off a bad wagon fast.

Okay, I agree with Boberz that wingless is an easy mislynch.

Unvote Wingless

Wingless, this unvote does not mean that I have ceased to be suspicious of you, it just means that I am looking for better ideas. If I don't find one, my vote will be back on to you.

That also felt like an unnatural backing down on a wagon. I didn't really understand why you unvoted here, cause none of the reasons you gave were sufficient.

It was for those reasons that I felt you had a good chance to be scum. It just seemed like you were hopping from wagon to wagon, just trying to get any lynch to stick.

So I had my reasons, but obviously as I learned, I was mistaken. You are just a townie who made a lot of plays that looked bad.

As an aside I would also advise you not to play like that in the future as it's a good way to get lynched. Changing your mind on suspicions is fine, but doing it without any real explanation in a short amount of time without any interaction or questioning of the person you suspect just ends up making you look scummy. You may have reasoning to change your mind and it might make sense to you, but the explanation in thread just ends up looking very hollow.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, any bread crumbs?

No, I never breadcrumb my role.

I'll find you some links to prove it.

[Zachrulez]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=14705

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=13337

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=12859

http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... baa161e9fb

[Zachrulez]

Top link I played as a hydra under the sottyrulez account.

[Zachrulez]

However I did ask Gaul to claim knowing that if he claimed cop, I would know for sure he was lying and scum.

[Zachrulez]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Zachrulez]

Look if a claimed cop votes town, what's the point of doing it? I really don't understand you. You may be cop, who knows 1-2 people is town, but I think if you were cop, you would definately have investigated me. You voted on me, so I was scum in your eyes. If you are cop, you know I am town. You didn't understand this. If the town kills me today, then you'll be the next.

Why would I have definitely investigated you?

You don't necessarily investigate your stated suspicions. Knowing the alignment of players you are unsure of can really be useful information when you are a cop. (I think a lot of people misunderstand the way a cop should be played optimally.)

[Zachrulez]

If he's cop, it is very likely that he knows what I am.

How exactly?

[Zachrulez]

Mmmm cookie.

Oh... hai SK. Stalking me?

Oh well, I was hoping for a humorous reaction from someone.

Hey, Zach! (I'm still going to quit mafia soon.)

(Seriously! I swear!)

LIES.

Wisa ISO 2

UNVOTE: Gaulamos
VOTE: Paschendale

sorry, something misfired in my brain

That's true. Something misrifed in your brain thinking about your scum mate gaulamos.

Wat

Wisa ISO 35

I'm shamelessly sheeping, but I have to admit gaul is looking pretty terrible at this point. He's all over the place with his accusations and is looking pretty hypocritical when he accuses zdenek of just trying to get a lynch right now.

UNVOTE

VOTE: gaulamos

He had not attacked gaulamos before. Never. And when he saw gaul was going to be lynched that thay, he joins the wagon at the end of the day, 1 real day before the end of D2. He was not posting before the end of D2he even admitted that) because he would have been forced to post about gaul's scumminess. He just didn't want to loose his mate. Then he joins the wagon quickly to get town credibility.[/quote]

That's a legitimate point.

in response to Wingless' accusations about me, the first was merely a slip - i got paschendale and gaulamos names confused because i'd just learned them that day. My previous post was an argument against pasch.

Yeah, the arguments were against Pasch.

But Paschendale and I appeared after the last post of gaulamos. Gaulamos couldn't speak with me or with Pasch before your vote. Gaulamos didn't even post on that page where you voted him while reasoning against Pasch! They hadn't done anything similar. You couldn't have swapped them without thinking intensely about gaul, your mate. There is nothing that could cause this but your scumminess.

After I reread that, you look scummier.

I don't understand this argument at all.

[Zachrulez]

EBWOP:

Mmmm cookie.

Oh... hai SK. Stalking me?

Oh well, I was hoping for a humorous reaction from someone.

Hey, Zach! (I'm still going to quit mafia soon.)

(Seriously! I swear!)

LIES.

Wisa ISO 2

UNVOTE: Gaulamos
VOTE: Paschendale

sorry, something misfired in my brain

That's true. Something misrifed in your brain thinking about your scum mate gaulamos.

Wat

Wisa ISO 35

I'm shamelessly sheeping, but I have to admit gaul is looking pretty terrible at this point. He's all over the place with his accusations and is looking pretty hypocritical when he accuses zdenek of just trying to get a lynch right now.

UNVOTE

VOTE: gaulamos

He had not attacked gaulamos before. Never. And when he saw gaul was going to be lynched that thay, he joins the wagon at the end of the day, 1 real day before the end of D2. He was not posting before the end of D2he even admitted that) because he would have been forced to post about gaul's scumminess. He just didn't want to loose his mate. Then he joins the wagon quickly to get town credibility.

That's a legitimate point.

in response to Wingless' accusations about me, the first was merely a slip - i got paschendale and gaulamos names confused because i'd just learned them that day. My previous post was an argument against pasch.

Yeah, the arguments were against Pasch.

But Paschendale and I appeared after the last post of gaulamos. Gaulamos couldn't speak with me or with Pasch before your vote. Gaulamos didn't even post on that page where you voted him while reasoning against Pasch! They hadn't done anything similar. You couldn't have swapped them without thinking intensely about gaul, your mate. There is nothing that could cause this but your scumminess.

After I reread that, you look scummier.

I don't understand this argument at all.

[Zachrulez]

^ Same

Wingless has one good point on Wisa, but the rest is junk.

Game's at a standstill. Waiting for more thoughts from SK.

[Zachrulez]

It is impossible for Zdenek to be scum in every scenario.

[Zachrulez]

No matter what I do say, you guys won't change you opinion about Wisa.

I think out of all the points you made you made one good point about him. (Noted in 417)

Even given that though, his position regarding Gaul was similar to my own, so I can't necissarily give it a ton of weight.

Right now, I'm honestly more bothered with SK than I am with Wisa. He stated Zdenek as a suspect even though it's impossible. There simply is no scenario where Zdenek can be scum. This would demonstrate skimming the game, (At the very least my claim) and looks like someone trying to keep options open.

[Zachrulez]

We should get something from Kerrigan.

here is my own prod-dodge post

Could you take a quick look at the other Zachrulez games that he posted to provide meta, and tell me what you think?

Same question for everyone.

Has anyone else read the games that Zach posted? I think he was much more helpful in those games than in this one.

If this is what you're driving at, it would be a lot easier for you to lay out why you think I'm less helpful in this particular game, rather than expecting others to read multiple mafia games.

This would also allow me to address concerns you have about my play, as opposed to a hard claim without any reasoning behind it which I can't defend myself against. (Other than dispute it with equal non-reasoning.)

[Zachrulez]

The mod has really neglected this game from a vote count standpoint. It really kills the interest in the game in general.

Neil did hammer 3 days ago, unless my own count of the vote is wrong.

[Zachrulez]

I investigated Wisakedjak and got no result.

[Zachrulez]

I got no result, that basically means I was roleblocked.

[Zachrulez]

Did you expect me to have a result?

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Neil1113

[Zachrulez]

Sorry Wisa.

[Zachrulez]

I think even if he waited, he would have eventually voted for you anyway.

[Zachrulez]

I thought I was toast after Gaul went down. Being tasked with a solo win is one of the most difficult things to pull off as a Scum IC, because there's no way you can play under the radar, people are going to notice. I posted as often as I could, though I was helped by the game state. (A lot of that was because this moderator wasn't the most active so I feel bad about it in that respect) There were several occasions where I literally forgot about this game.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, it was a 50-50 shot, in my eyes. I mean, you were scummy enough to be suspicious to me, but somehow that blank slot made me more suspicious.

I was counting on that.

Every person I've led a wagon on thus far has been town

I've done that before as town... and I have even in some recent games. Don't take too much out of it as a reflection of yourself as a player.

Also, Zach, I totally forgot about this game a couple times.

I figured I wasn't the only one.

[Zachrulez]

Sorry guys I got gaul. And by endgame I definately would have had zach but put a target on my back their.

Zach may kill me for saying this but always kill the IC in endgame, if they are lasting this long then they are scum. THey would be knd otherwise.

I understand the sentiment, but I have gotten to endgame as a town IC before. (Probably more often as town than scum.)

Zach now I have daily (more than) internet access do you think I am good enough to be an IC? I ahve played enough games but most of the other ICs seem to be really good players, is it an unofficial rule that you have to be good to be an IC?

There's no "skill" requirement to being an IC. You just need to be able to teach the game to newbies.

[Zachrulez]

Hi Vel!

[Zachrulez]

But yeah, Boberz whole argument for IC scum based on not dying at night was exactly why I was sad when Gaul was lynched. If I'm gonna be run down for that, I like a scum buddy who can go deep into endgame without that kind of scrutiny.

[Zachrulez]

One thing that i think it was offsetting, was a intervention from the mod early in the game, defending a player for being inactive. It's basicly a null tell but still puts that slot on a position not to be killed and in my opinion that shouldn't have happen.

Yes, I forgot to mention this, but I was very upset about that when that happened, it was even more frustrating that as scum I had to do an about face about it when it came up to, but I had to criticize the move as an IC for the betterment of any of you who might desire to become moderators of your own games in the future. Acknowledging that a player has declared V/LA is one thing. Actively defending them from people who might see the lack of posting as lurking is stepping over the line of neutrality as a moderator. It's not a moderator's job to justify a player's absence to the other players in the game, only to determine when their inactivity crosses the line and requires replacement.

[Zachrulez]

Also I don't know if it was noticed by you Gaul or any of the other players, but when I did shift against you like I did and asked for the claim, I was actually hinting that YOU should have tried the cop claim. Keep that in mind next time your scum buddy asks you to claim.