Newbie 933 ~ Town Win!

[Netopalis]

Hello, everybody! Welcome to the game. I'm Netopalis, your IC for this game. I'm taking a rather long car trip today, so I won't be able to post much right now, but I did want to start everybody off with a few questions:

1) How did you end up on Mafiascum?
2) Why do you play Mafia?
3) How would you describe your play style? Your personality?
4) Coke or pepsi?
5) How do you make decisions in general? In Mafia?
6) Would you say that you're nervous about this game?

I won't be random voting, as I hate random votes. I prefer to make a vote based on the answers to these questions. I'll be answering them myself once everybody else has answered.

[Netopalis]

You sound very thorough and eager - you should do well here. Follow up quesiton: How would you say that somebody you're pressuring is "In the clear"?

[Netopalis]

Excellent. One last question: Is that a turtle in your avatar?

[Netopalis]

Rather...concise. Do you think you could expand a bit, Weird?

[Netopalis]

All of it, really.

[Netopalis]

My, my, my. We have been busy. I'll respond to points as I come across them in the thread.

1) I lynch very specific types of lurkers. I lynch lurkers who lurk until prodded, then come back, post something and leave again. They'll never get replaced, but they come very, very close to it. They are often scum and, even if they're not, they're incredibly detrimental to the town.

2) Me=Weird - Exactly how much time did you spend on Post #16, a 4-line post?

3) In response to Die Prediger, I act like a teacher in newbie games because I

am

a teacher. It is my role here to teach you folks how to play. Even if I'm scum, I'll be doing that. However, I still play to my role objective. I have a weird position because I have dual allegience in this game - I have whatever my win condition is, and I have a duty to help newbies of both alignments learn how to play better. Also, I like to compliment people who do well and provide logical answers. I also like how you're analyzing what I've posted - even though you're wrong, it's good to challenge authority.

4) I don't like Me=Weird's vote on me. It looks opportunistic, as if he's scum trying to get rid of someone he feels threatened by, as evidenced by his response to my request for more lengthy responses to my questions.

5) I also don't like Guide's vote on Me=Weird. There is an excellent reason to do it, but he needs to post his reasoning here. This isn't really a scumtell, it's a matter of good play - never just post a vote, always include reasoning with that vote.

6) I will not answer my questions until everybody else has. This is because I do not want my answers to bias any future answerers. I will answer all of them once everyone has answered, I'll explain why I asked each question and I'll analyze everybody's answers individually. Trust me, you will be hearing far more than you probably want to from me during this game.

7) Me=Weird is being oddly reactionary to every single attack again in his FOS of Robocopter. I really, really don't like that post. It looks as if he's not really trying to find scum, he's trying to eliminate threats.

8) Ah, an excellent teaching opportunity. Never vote No Lynch on D1 of a newbie game. Here's why:

At the outset of the game, there are 9 players, 2 of which are scum. Lynching every day, and assuming no doc protection and worst lynches on the town side, the numbers look like this:

Day Town Scum Note
_____________________________
1 7 2
2 5 2
3 3 2 LYLO
4 2 1 LYLO
_____________________________

LYLO means "Lynch or Lose". Essentially, the town wants to have as many opportunities to lynch before we reach LYLO as possible, as it improves our chances.

By No Lynching on D1, we get the following numbers:


Day Town Scum Note
_____________________________
1 7 2 NO LYNCH
2 6 2
3 4 2 LYLO
4 3 1 LYLO
_____________________________

There are the same number of days in both cases, but the town keeps around one potentially scummy player longer. Therefore, there is no change in how long the town survives, but there is less information. Therefore, a D1 No Lynch is a bad idea.


In regards to the suspicion on Melon, I don't feel that he's that scummy, I think it's a reaction to his posting style. I'll withhold judgment until I see more, though.

9) I do think that there has been some suspicion on Weird and that Melon should answer the question. However, I don't find his initial refusal that scummy.

10) The Melon-Guide argument looks like two townies, I think. Of the two, Melon is more likely to be scum, since he does seem to be taking more of a reactionary position, but I still think both are probably town.

11) Guide's Post #63 changes my analysis somewhat. He says that he'd be willing to lynch Melon right now. I really don't like that. Several of our players haven't posted, and generally we shouldn't lynch until a consensus has been reached and

all

players have weighed in.

12) Same thoughts against Weird. Also, his 73 doesn't provide a basis for his suspicion against Melon.

13) Beefster: Mind answering my questions from page 1?

14) Boberz: Mind answering my questions on page 1? Also, the post by Beefster is not necessarily a slip - I read it as him calling Melon scum trying to protect his partner.

15) I like what Robocopter's doing in this game and appreciate him lending his voice as the voice of reason.

16) More uber-defensiveness from Weird. Really, really don't like his play here. He looks extremely, extremely nervous about something, more nervous than I would expect a townie to be.

To summarize:

Proabable town:
Robocopter87
Die Prediger

Possible town:
AClockwork Melon
TheGuide730

Null read:
Beefster
Boberz

Possible scum:
Me=Weird

These reads are likely to change as the day goes on - particularly earlier in the day.

[Netopalis]

Badger crossposted me while I was writing my tome - here are my responses to him:

Personally, I really hate the random vote system. I find that it leads to illogical suspicion and rarely ends up working. As it stands, random questions don't have a particularly better track record (I have some personal experiences that show that they help improve town chances later, but nothing definitive). However, they also haven't been used much. I think that if they became more common-place, we'd have an opportunity to refine and hone them into an excellent scumhunting tool. You'll notice that I open every game that I IC with questions, regardless of alignment.

I also chose not to answer my questions yet because I don't want every player going, "Uh, yeah, what he said" in response to all of them. I usually write rather lengthy responses, and I don't want to give an answer that sounds better than what one of the newbies could think up themselves.

[Netopalis]

Robocopter: If you're saying that 2 of the more experienced players are scum and are lurking, what would you say right now is the probable scumteam from the 3 experienced players other than yourself:
Netopalis
Electricbadger
Boberz

And why?

[Netopalis]

Bizarre response.

[Netopalis]

Beefster: Given Guide's last post, would you still say that he's that eager to lynch? Also, not all votes should be considered willingness to lynch, as many players vote for pressure.

Robo: It's bizarre because I don't feel that it really follows the train of thought I was asking about. You said that you thought that 2 experienced players were scum. I asked why. You responded with some disconnected thoughts that didn't really form anything cohesive. I'm just trying to figure out what you mean.

[Netopalis]

Boberz and Badger do deserve more attention, but Badger's said that he's less active on the weekends, and I can believe that. Still would like to hear from Boberz.

[Netopalis]

Ugh. There's no reason that anybody should have 4 votes at this stage in the game. Honestly. We should not be talking about lynching when the game thread isn't even a full day old.

[Netopalis]

Speaking of such, I really, really don't like Beef's vote.

Beef: Exactly why did you vote for Guide?

[Netopalis]

Beefster: Is bandwagoning something you find to be desirable?

[Netopalis]

What sort of pressure do you feel I'm under, Badger?

BTW, I'm going to be compiling my answers and reasoning behind the questions in the next 2 hours - expect a mega-post then.

[Netopalis]

My answers to my questions:


1) How did you end up on Mafiascum? I'm a law student and I ended up here because I wanted to work on honing my debating skills. I was referred to this site by a friend a year-ish ago, but didn't play - I remembered it after I started law school.

2) Why do you play Mafia? Because it's the only game that uses applied logic and psychology to come to definite, meaningful results. We're debating over something that is, in fact, measurable truth, but which none of us have a vested enough interest in to be completely unwavering.

3) How would you describe your play style? Your personality? I prefer logic and reasoning over gut reactions and vague ideas of who might be scum based on feelings. I like making definite, meaningful cases which show others why they should follow what I have to say.

4) Coke or pepsi? Coke, usually. It has a slightly darker taste.

5) How do you make decisions in general? In Mafia? I try to weigh all decisions from the viewpoint of an unbiased observer, setting aside personal prejudices when making decisions. I feel that it leads to more accurate and helpful decisions both in my personal life and in Mafia.

6) Would you say that you're nervous about this game? No. I've IC'd quite a few games and I'm pretty used to it.

And now for why I asked each of these questions:

1) How did you end up on Mafiascum? - The first question is a softball to put the answerer at ease.
2) Why do you play Mafia? - This gives a clue to what motivates a person - scumhunting is about trying to figure out what motivates a person to act.
3) How would you describe your play style? Your personality? - By looking at where a player departs from their style and personality, we can see where they're likely lying.
4) Coke or pepsi? - Another softball question to put the answerer back at ease and to make the questions look more innocuous.
5) How do you make decisions in general? In Mafia? - Very similar to 3, I'm trying to look at where a player departs from their method.
6) Would you say that you're nervous about this game? - I'm looking here for the way that the person answers the question rather than the answer itself - scum want to avoid appearing too nervous, but they don't want to look like they have all the answers either.

And now my analysis of everybody's answers. What I'm looking for is not what the players answer, it's how open and willing they are to answer. Scum often try to avoid giving too much away, which in turn gives stuff away.

Beefster - No real answers here. It looks like he's dodging. Scum points.
theguide730 - Fairly substantial answers including good follow-up answers. I don't get the impression that he's trying to hide anything. Town points.
Me=Weird - Short, terse answers that don't give up much information. Also, Me=Weird's assertion that he likes to use "Cold logic" doesn't really comport with his later posts which seem to be more fearmongering and flaliling than anything else. Scum points.
Die Prediger - Although his answers are short, it looks as if he put some thought into it. On this post alone, he's a null read, however his later posts show a town pattern.
AClockworkMelon - Substantial answers. He also strikes a good balance between being overly assertive and being waffley. Town points.
Robocopter87 - Shortish answers, but he asks some more himself and tries to be open. Null points.
boberz - Interesting answers. In particular, I find it curious that he describes himself as "Very aggressive". He doesn't come across that way otherwise. Null read.
ElectricBadger - Shortish answers, but in a substantially informative post. He defends Weird, who I think i scum, but that's a bold statement for a player to make at this point, and I respect his willigness to do so. Town points.


Based on the totality of the circumstances, I think that at least one of the following players are scum:
Boberz
Me=weird
Beefster

The lower you are on the list, the scummier I find you.

[Netopalis]

Sure. It means wavering, unable to take a definite stance and generally unsure of yourself. Scum often appear to waffle because they don't like to be pinned down to a particular mode of thought or suspicion - it causes trouble later on when they supported a mislynch.

[Netopalis]

I use questions in games regardless of alignment because I find that it produces superior results for town. If I were to do it only as town or only as scum, it would kinda give it away on those times that I am scum, wouldn't it? You can analyze my reasons behind my questions - I posted why I asked each of them - it's up to you to determine whether you think those reasons are valid. I think they are.

[Netopalis]

I disagree, Boberz. Content is pro-town, and I don't think that there's a strong case for the more substantial answers being scummy. Of course, those players could still be scum, and of course these are just initial reads, but for right now, I feel confident in the direction that I'm pushing.

[Netopalis]

Oh, the reads are incredibly flimsy. The only value that they have is that it's a better way to start the game than just randomly voting for someone because you don't like their username or you find their avatar to be scary or you used a random number generator.

[Netopalis]

I feel fairly confident that Guide and Die Prediger are town. Both, I feel, are a lot more engaged than newbies given a scum role would normally be.

[Netopalis]

Why do you find him to be suspicious?

[Netopalis]

Weird: Don't put too much stock in reactions - they're a decent starting point, but they're by no means an end point. For some players, mostly newbies, it works decently, but for someone like me who's played at least 20 finished games and who has a 100% win record as scum, they're not nearly as accurate. Most of those games that I won are because people were fishing for reactions from me and just didn't get them.

[Netopalis]

Why do you have Robocopter as your scummiest?

[Netopalis]

Beefster, why exactly do you find post 99 to be scummy? Also, I gave the reasons that I asked each of those questions - why does that add to my scummishness in your opinion?

[Netopalis]

EB: Sorry, I missed that post earlier. Sure, I can link you to one that I've done it as town.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 14&start=0

I haven't used them as scum in any completed games, yet, at least insofar as I can remember.

[Netopalis]

Beefster: FOS is Finger of Suspicion. It means that you suspect someone, but don't want to vote them.

Guide: If Weird flipped town, Badger would not be automatically town, nor would those attacking Weird automatically be scummy. You have to look at

why

they attacked or defended someone and then decide if their reasons justified their actions, or if they were merely a thin veneer for an ulterior motive.

[Netopalis]

DP: What EB said. Scum often do it to improve their town read and avoid suspicion.

[Netopalis]

Simple - I'd use them the same way. It should be considered a null tell in regards to my alignment. If I use them differently depending on my alignment, then it would ruin me in any game that I play as scum and create an unfair "Pooky Guarantee" advantage as town.

[Netopalis]

No, they are. I guess I misworded what I said earlier, though, on further reflection. I thought you were asking about my purpose behind the questions and the type I'd ask. Those would stay the same. However, the most obvious change would be that I'd be using it against people I know aren't scum. So, in that sense, yeah, it's a bit different.

[Netopalis]

EB: It's easy. Town players make scumtells all the time without realizing it. I choose not to attack them for it if I think that they're still town despite the presence of certain tells.

[Netopalis]

Ah, sorry. Didn't realize what you were gunning for. That's true of anybody who plays scum, though, I think.

[Netopalis]

Now that it's over, Badger, here's a game where I used the questions as scum:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

[Netopalis]

Ugh, I've been neglecting this thread. Sorry about that. I'm going to reread tonight and post some more analysis.

[Netopalis]

Ok, I read back through things and here are my thoughts:

Die Prediger -
Clearly town at this point in the game. His questions to the various players on the first page were good, and he seems to be one of the stronger driving forces behind this game. High town read.

TheGuide -
I have a really weird read on TheGuide. On the one hand, I think that most of his posts are extremely townish, as it appears that he's genuinely trying to move the game along and find scum rather than just put up a front.. On the other hand, I really don't like how willing he was to lynch earlier. I'm going to put him down as Null Read.

Me=Weird - I was originally going to write up why we should lynch Me=Weird today, but after reading his ISO, I don't think so. He looks more like newbie town, unsure of what to do than he looks like scum. That being said, he has done several scummy things and he looks extremely nervous. Null read.

Robocopter -
I really don't get why everybody keeps attacking him. The attacks seem to be largely meaningless. I'd be willing to vote for him if there were a good reason, but, well, there's not. Can anybody help me understand why everybody suspects him? Null-to-town read.

ElectricBadger-
Good play. He seems like he's also one of the people who's genuinely trying to scumhunt. Town read.

Boberz -
I'm honestly not sure what to think of Boberz. Boberz seems to be a bit disconnected with the game, which does make me think that he might be scum - he doesn't need to figure out who the mafia is, if that is the case. Light scum read.

AClockworkMelon - ACM really sets off my scumdar with his jumping onto Robo. He didn't think that Robo was a strong enough read to even post a case on (He had deleted it from his original post) - but when everybody else starts going after Robo, he's more than willing to hop on. His reasoning about Robo was extremely weak - he's pointed out contradictions that are tenuous and supported a town/scum list. The first is not really that strong of a scumtell, as D1 cases are notoriously weak. The second is even weaker - I really like scum/town lists as town because I feel that they give the town more information. Scum should be able to know who the town trusts, and if they don't, that information is still less useful to scum than it is to town. Overall, it looks like ACM isn't really committed to any of his suspicions - he just wants to be on whatever wagon is gaining steam. Light scum read.

Beefster- Beefster's play has been extremely weak. He's really posted almost nothing of substance. That which was of substance is largely inaccurate. The problem is, I'm not sure if it's inexperienced town or scum. I'm going to put him down as a lighter scum read for now.

[Netopalis]

Oh, BTW:

Unvote, vote: AClockworkMelon

[Netopalis]

Oh, sorry. Sure. Basically, looking at his posts in aggregate, you see a strong showing of him prodding and poking people who give indefinite answers. See the following:

@ Weird
Its really not that hard to sum up your playstyle/personality. There's no reason not to do it, unless of course, you don't want to set a standard that you'll have to live up to later in the game.

@Neto
I'm gonna echo Die here. I'd like to hear you answer your own questions.

Weird, how is pressuring someone scummy? Especially a person that no one suspects except me.

Question for everyone: Who do you feel is the most likely to be town at this point?

Feel free to skip this question if you've already answered this in another post.

@ Weird:

Whose reactions were you fishing for when you voted Neto? His, or the group's in general?

He also has the most substance of any of the newbies. While he's posted a lot, most of the posts have been pretty good and have had good content.

However, I do believe he's said a few scummy things. On the balance, I have to give him a null read.

[Netopalis]

They don't create white noise because it helps the town question other players and figure out what everybody else is thinking.

They don't help scum lurk because scum would still need to post their lists and discuss.

They don't help scum know who to kill because it should be fairly obvious that certain players are more trusted than others.

Finally, it is helpful because Mafia is a game of information. The more information that is available to the town, the better. There is some information which, if it becomes public, hurts the town, but these lists are not that sort of information.

[Netopalis]

ISO means to read that player's posts in isolation. To do that, go to the bottom of the page, select the user and click "Go".

I'll look back over Robo, but I didn't get that vibe from him at all.

Why would "good reason" imply that I'm the cop?

Boberz: Weird is vote-worthy too, but I think that Beefster demands the most attention at the moment.

[Netopalis]

I'm still not feeling this wagon...I really think we can do better, guys. Yeah, he's done some scummy things, but I don't feel that they even approach the level of ridiculous exhibited by Me=Weird and, to a lesser extent, Beefster.

[Netopalis]

FOS: Boberz

Encouraging him not to claim is going to essentially hasten his lynch. I could see you doing this, then him flipping town. You then have the benefit of both defending him AND helping get him lynched. It's not a strong enough read for a vote, though.

[Netopalis]

Ack! Timeout double post.

MOD: fix please.

Fixed. ~DLA

G'head and delete this post too.

It's against my modding etiquette to delete anything but accidental identical double posts. Sorry. ~DLA

Very odd that you'd want a post deleted...

... I can't believe I almost missed this...

... you wanted it deleted because you didn't want us to analyze it! Scum!

Really, ACM? Really?

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I've been kinda out of it for the last few days due to traveling and stuff. I'm not normally this inactive. Right now, I'm leaning Beefster, but I'll review the game up to this point and see how I feel.

[Netopalis]

For what it's worth, though, you should probably cross-reference that with N 920, in which I play very similarly, but flip doc.

[Netopalis]

Robo: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13514

[Netopalis]

Nothing wrong with that. It shows I was a threat. I helped the town win in the end, and I consider it to be a victory.

[Netopalis]

Alright...I apologize. This is not my normal style, and I've been horribly delinquent in my play this game. However, I intend to make amends now, through this post.

My reads on each player from the last 5 pages:
Robocopter - Does look a bit defensive, but I still think he looks pretty town. Town that generally looks scummy if pressed, but town nonetheless. It seems as if he's trying to actually scumhunt rather than just trying to pin the blame on somebody. Also, I don't really think that defensiveness is a scumtell, since everybody needs to defend themselves at least somewhat if attacked. Probably town.

Boberz - Boberz has improved dramatically over the last few posts. Dramatically. It's like it's not even the same person from the first few pages. Probably town.

ACM - I really don't know what to think about ACM, but I'm gathering a theory. When he expressed surprise at me being happy about the outcome of N920 even though I died, it showed that he perhaps has more of a survival instinct than most townies, and this might be screwing with my radar. Some townies do rank survival highly as one of their goals, and my read on ACM would be consistent with that.

ElectricBadger - EB has been the glue that holds this town together. A scum as experienced as EB is would have likely just left everybody else to flail.

TheGuide - I still really don't see the case on TheGuide. I've seen a lot of piling on to the TheGuide wagon, but I just don't get the case.

DiePrediger - Few posts, but what he has posted convinces me that he's town.

Me=Weird - Pulling the whole "There's nothing for me to comment on" is usually a scumtell. Also, his past actions have been extremely telling as well.

Beefster - Just claimed scum?

Anyway, obviously Beefster is the play. There's a strong case, I feel, for a Me=Weird/Beefster scumteam. I'll have to check the others and see if there's anybody else that would work with.

[Netopalis]

Fair enough. I guess I was just overreacting to your original post.

[Netopalis]

He did, but I'm not sure why.

[Netopalis]

Well, I'm going to hold off because I want to hear more first....

[Netopalis]

EB: Not following your logic. Just because what he said can be related to myself or DieP doesn't mean that we're the other scum with him. That being said, I doubt seriously on further reflection that he's likely to make a second scumslip.

Unvote, vote: Beefster

[Netopalis]

Yeah, not seeing it.

[Netopalis]

Another EBWOP: Neto=TOWN.

Not seeing this either. You're acting very strange. I understand what you mean about the lynch immunity...But, I'll go ahead and say that I'm not a cop, so that rules that out.

[Netopalis]

Mainly, I started seeing it while you were pressing Me=Weird and arguing with Badger over the last 4 pages.

[Netopalis]

Also: Why was he modkilled? I'm assuming it's because it's against the rules to claim scum but I'm not sure.

This.

[Netopalis]

No, he was modkilled and lynched.

Also, to clarify, my "This" was referring to ACM's assumption being right.

[Netopalis]

Uh, folks...He just forgot to lock the thread. It's night. Mafia's still going to make a kill.

[Netopalis]

I meant that I was confirming the assumption that Beefster was modkilled for claiming scum.

[Netopalis]

No real surprise there. Today, I want to look closely at Me=Weird. Him and Beefster were very close yesterday, at least from my point of view, and I feel confident that there's a good case for him as scum.

TheGuide: What changed your mind?

[Netopalis]

Oh, BTW:

Vote: Me=Weird

[Netopalis]

Badger: I'll do the multi-iso quotes once I get back. To answer your first question, though, it was no surprise because we all felt that he was obviously town.

[Netopalis]

Netopalis, talk to me.

What are your reads on people, including me?

theguide730 - I still feel that he's likely town. Newbie scum tend to play in a more nervous, tightly wound manner than Guide did at the start, and his attempts at scumhunting have seemed genuine.

Me=Weird - I really do feel that Me=Weird is the likely scum here, for reasons previously mentioned. It's clear to me at least that the reason that he didn't do any scumhunting yesterday was because he knew who the scum was and didn't want to out them.

AClockworkMelon - ACM is a tough read. Could be scum, but I'm not sold on it. I think he just has an unusual playstyle.

Robocopter87 ^ - He seems very much like him as town when I've played with him in the past. Also, he goes after Beefster before he would need to as scum.

boberz ^ - Townish read. Towards the end of the day, when he was pushing Beefster heavily, I started to see what he was doing a bit more clearly, and I don't think that he would have pushed his partner so hard.

ElectricBadger * - Eh. Probably town, or else just really good scum. I need to reread his iso before I make any definite statements...But right now, thinking town due to the way that he's been taking the lead.


Overall:

Probable town:
theguide730
Robocopter87 ^
boberz ^

Null read:
AClockworkMelon
ElectricBadger *

Scum:
Me=Weird


As I've said in the past in similar situations, though, Mount Everest exists between the null reads and the scum reads in this post. I become more and more convinced that Me=Weird is scum.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* Inconsistency is not always a scumtell. Beefster seemed like he didn't really have it all together. It's not that I didn't catch it, it's that I just thought that he didn't notice his own hypocrisy, and I felt that it wasn't important.

[Netopalis]

You're on the right track, I think, but I also think you go a bit too far. You can't just clear people based on relationships like that. Also, it's very much a possibility that Beefster decided to attack Me=Weird after he started gaining suspicion for a number of different reasons, if they were scum together - he wanted Me=Weird to appear town if he flipped scum or he wanted to appear town if Me=Weird got lynched.

But, the point is, relationships are just one half of the equation. You also need to prove independently scummy behavior.

[Netopalis]

Wait a minute. You don't think that a DP kill was expected? I think that the mafia would have been foolish to kill anybody else. Every other player had a fair amount of suspicion on them at one point or another. Also, my "hesitance" to vote Beefster, as you put it, was mainly an attempt to see how everybody else would react to his claim. I wanted to see who would try to explain it away. As it stands, the wagon moved too quickly to really get a read on that, unfortunately. Finally, the lynch protection argument is rather silly, isn't it? I mean, it's just as likely he was trying to get me to admit being a cop so he could nightkill me.

[Netopalis]

Most of the theories advanced thus far have a problem: They're ignoring Me=Weird, who is obviously scum. I mean, seriously, why are we all just ignoring him? It's rather frustrating.

[Netopalis]

ACM - I hadn't missed it. Here's my case in a nutshell. Me=Weird goes through 4 separate phases, each of which has its own distinctively scummy elements.

The first phase is in the early game in response to my questioning. During this time, he looks rather defensive. It's as if he's extremely nervous about what I'm trying to do. This would fit with a scum profile - random questions are rarely used in Mafia (I'm the only player who uses them regularly, to my knowledge), and seeing something unusual being done by one of the two experienced players in the game would likely make a newbie scum player a bit edgy.

The second phase is during the middle of yesterday, when we started throwing around ideas. He jumps on whatever wagon seems to be appropriate at the time. First, he follows up on Die Predinger's suspicion of me, then he jumps to Robocopter, then to ACM, then to Guide. Why does he do this? Well, go back and read yesterday. What did the town do? It jumped to him (He's obviously not going to go after himself), then to Robocopter, then to ACM, then to Guide. He has little to no justification for his switches - it appears as if he's just trying to be an extra vote on whatever wagon is expedient rather than trying to catch scum.

The third phase is during the time that the town solidified towards lynching Beefster. This phase can be characterized by the following post:

Right now I'm waiting for more people to actually say anything.

A lot of people had said things. He simply wasn't willing to push the town further towards lynching Beefster.

The fourth and final phase is during the start of D2. He needs to cut his losses here, so he proposes a grand reread and new suspicions to start out the day. Who does he go after? Robo, a very easy target, and myself, a moderately difficult target. He probably chose me because EB had suspected me some yesterday due to my inactivity (An unfortunate side-effect of law school, please forgive me for that.) He chose Robo because, counting the votes of people from yesterday, it seemed that there were more than enough people to get a robo lynch today. Altogether, his two reads are extremely safe, even if they don't appear to be at first glance.

Overall, it's clear that Me=Weird has no interest in actual scumhunting. He just wants a lynch of anybody other than himself.

[Netopalis]

Wow. I've read the new stuff, and all I can say is wow, you, Melon, and you, boberz, have spent almost an entire page arguing about whether lying is in scums benefit and then just getting at each others throats. Congratulations, you have utterly impressed me. Neto, your post about the theories being pointless because they don't have anything to do with me seems slightly desperate and a bit silly. Everything in the game does not have to be about one player. boberz, what did you mean, "whether it's pro or anti-town is irrelevant"? Its totally relevant. I know you explained it, but still, saying it's irrelevant is a bit odd. Also, can you please quote where Melon is "abusing" you?

I agree. I was flabbergasted when I read that it being pro or anti town is irrelevant. There's really no arguing with it.

It's been a position long contested by some players on the site that lynching scummy players alone isn't necessarily the best strategy because the same players do keep getting lynched early on, regardless of their alignment. One certain player has taken it as far as to say that there is no such thing as good or bad mafia play. Personally, I disagree with both statements - while players can appear scummy regardless of their alignment, lynching scummy players is a sure way to narrow down the focus of the town and pinpoint who the real scum is. But, this is all a digression and not really relevant. If I haven't already,

Unvote, vote: Me=Weird

[Netopalis]

Hmm. This does complicate matters. Usually, saying that there is a doc in a newbie game isn't really a scumslip. It's more of an inexperience slip. The question then is this - do we trust ACM's cop claim? Unfortunately, we haven't seen a roleblocker yet, so we can't determine how safe the claim is. Still, until countered, I do like keeping claimed power roles alive. I need to think and review on this some more. I'm leaning towards a Boberz lynch right now, but I need more information first.

As a side note, this claim does clear both myself and guide. There are two possible options - either ACM is lying, in which case he's actually scum and neither of the two of us could be scum, or he's telling the truth, in which case we're both cleared as well.

[Netopalis]

I'm going to go ahead and say that I believe ACM's play. I reviewed his play from yesterday, looking for one thing in particular - any shred of an attack on me. If he truly is the cop and he truly got an innocent result on me, he would have dropped suspicion on me entirely. However, he says repeatedly that he's convinced that I am town, despite the suspicion against me. This leads me to one of two conclusions:

1) ACM is

extremely

good at playing as scum, going as far as to plan ahead who he's going to say that he investigated in the event of a cop claim - which I think is unlikely, since pretty much nobody does that. I also think he would have tried to get rid of me when EB was attacking me, due to the fact that I would likely be an endgame threat.

2) ACM is actually the cop, and the investigations are solid.

For the reasons that #1 is unlikely, combined with the fact that he had no way of knowing if he'd be counterclaimed, but he likely could have avoided 2 lynches, I feel confident that ACM is actually the cop. Thus, it really doesn't matter what today's play is. I feel better about the Boberz wagon than I do about the Robocopter wagon.

Oh, and by the way: ACM will likely not die tonight. Doing so would confirm his role as cop, which would mean that we would quickly lynch the other partner. The scum will likely keep him alive if we mislynch, as he's the only other possible suspect.

Unvote, vote: Boberz

[Netopalis]

ACM: Side note, I couldn't help but notice you mentioning your sleep schedule in your above post - are you polyphasic, by chance?

[Netopalis]

No, it's 4 to lynch today. Polyphasic Sleep is a sleep schedule that I'm working on adapting to. But, it's a long story - I was just curious. Sorry. If you're interested, we can chat after the game's over.

[Netopalis]

Oh, wait, you're right. 5 alive. Sorry about that. Well, hopefully we've just won.

[Netopalis]

Well, that all makes a lot of sense. I kept telling everybody that Guide and Robo were obviously town...

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Expect some critiques on your play a bit later today - it's something I do for all the newbies I IC for.

[Netopalis]

Boberz: There's little you can do in this sort of situation. Your only bet was to claim doc, get Robo lynched and kill me at night, then play the whole "He's a cop but he survived" card. You wouldn't have been counterclaimed at night, since there was no mafia roleblocker in this setup.

[Netopalis]

Robo: As a matter of personal curiosity, were you suspicious of me for any reasons other than our previous game?

[Netopalis]

Alright, sorry this took so long. I've been extremely busy with finals and stuff lately, so Mafia's taken a bit of a hit. I'm not going to speak about myself for obvious reasons, and I don't think that EB could learn a lot from my comments, so here are my thoughts on everybody else.


theguide730 - I still am not sure exactly why everybody ganged up on you like they did. To me, it was pretty obvious that you were town. I think you play a solid game, but watch out for buddying, as your playstyle lends itself to those accusations.

AClockworkMelon - Early on, you were very weak, but your D2 game was much improved. I think that you're on the right track of improvement. A few notes: First, when detailing a list of suspicions, you don't need to clear yourself; also, relationship alone is insufficient to prove a case. Second, you need to work at your argumentative skill - knowing who the scum are is only half the battle - the rest is convincing others. As a start, I'd recommend examining logical fallacies.

Robocopter87 ^ - Overall, your play is good. One thing that I'd note is that your extremely odd writing style does make it hard to discern exactly what it is that you're trying to say sometimes.

boberz ^ - You could use a bit of improvement, as you're not very convincing with your arguments. You did a pretty good job of clearing yourself of some of my early suspicion, but I was fairly sure that you were scum at the start. I do think that you were good to turn on Beefster early when it was clear that he wasn't going anywhere, though.

Die Prediger - You really need to post more. That being said, it was pretty obvious to everybody that you were town. You are a bit quick to jump to conclusions, though - try sitting back a bit and thinking over your position a bit more before posting.

Beefster - Never give up, never surrender. Giving up is the only strategy which will absolutely guarantee failure. I've won 2-scum games in which my partner gave up on D1 and which looked like impossible situations. I've seen players who were obviously scum avoid the lynch 5 days (!) in a row for the win. At the very least, you could have flushed out the cop by claiming cop.

Me=Weird - Your username is extremely appropriate. Try to be a little less guarded. The town generally wins by exposing more information to the public, yet your style appears to be geared towards preventing that. A bit more logical play would be good - I think that there is some solid reasoning behind your actions, but you need to explain it. Work through the steps. Show your work.

Overall, great job, town. Also, Boberz, sorry about your rotten draw this game.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Also, I'd welcome any critiques or suggestions on improving my style as IC. I sort of toned down what I usually do as IC after I was accused of creating "clones" of myself in my games - that's sort of blown over, but I'd still appreciate some input.

[Netopalis]

Now wait a minute. In my defense, I named 3 people in response to my questions as potential scum. 2 of them turned out to be scum. I'm pretty proud of that. Regardless, I think that its utility is higher than random votes.

[Netopalis]

Oh, yeah, it happens reasonably often.

[Netopalis]

He shouldn't have done that. I would have jumped down his throat for it. If you need me to, I can show an illustrative game that shows why no lynch is such a bad idea.

[Netopalis]

Right...but a lot of new players come in with the belief that they *can* no lynch and create a viable strategy, hoping to wait out for a cop result. Also, you don't need a placeholder vote.

[Netopalis]

Meh. When I saw TCC replacing out, I thought I was a goner. The only thing that saved me was the fact that McGriddle sucked so bad in that game.

[Netopalis]

Well, in all fairness, I think that I would have went after Me=Weird for most of the game anyway, as he has an extremely unusual playstyle which tends to make him look like scum. As far as being used in the same way as scum or as town...Yes, I think that it can be used the same as both. I think that scumhunting principles can be used the same way as both. All of these things are principles of argumentation, and do not necessarily require results in order to be valid. Every member of the uninformed majority has two burdens - identify the scum and present a logical case. It's the same way with scum, except instead you're looking for easy targets. I guess what I was trying to get at earlier is that the method is the same, but the application is different. Does that make sense?