Newbie 864 - Game Over.

[Col.Cathart]

/confirm

[Col.Cathart]

/confirm

CC is in this game... I'm gonna die, I knows it.

Huh? Why is that? I missed something? Don't worry, I'm not going to take a revenge for you flaking in Deja Bastard, if that's the case

[Col.Cathart]

Random Voting Stage!

vote: Drizzt

Because he's probably the most overused fantasy character EVER

[Col.Cathart]

unvote

vote: Sweep

Go go, Gadget bigger bandwagon.

[Col.Cathart]

Explanation, why 3rd vote on Sweep? That's pretty simple. I'm trying to take us out of RVS via random wagon. It even kinda worked, as some of you reacted to it.

Ray: Why do you think, that Marcosh wagon is better than Sweep wagon?

[Col.Cathart]

Because if I would said otherwise, I would lie. What other answer would be suitable for you, when 2 people calls you out, for 'rushing with the wagon'?

[Col.Cathart]

Pablo: Well, from reaction I got, I figured out, that not much more can be added to this. True, I did it a bit too early (I should have wait for Sweep's response, but what's done is done), but I got reaction I wanted.

RayFrost deliberately ignored it (he quoted my post, but his post were about something different), as I would expect from someone who saw at least several random bandwagons in his career, and from someone with his kind of attitude. Nothing suspicious in here.

Bach's reaction would've been interesting, if not the fact, he thought Sweep was already at L-1. In current circumstances, his reaction seemed like normal townie, though this sentence:

"Sorry, please return to your random voting. If I haven't wrenched us away from that with a serious question."

Kinda raised my eyebrow. Why would we want to continue RVS? The faster we'll get away from it, the better. It's nothing serious though...

Parts's reaction is a null-tell for now. He acted cool, but I cannot shake off the feeling, he's kinda worried with already 3 votes on Sweep.

And you of course. I expected reaction like that from you, especially as I remember you from my first game on this site. You were town there, so so far you have town-points in my book.

Marcosh: It looks to me, like you're trying to discredit RayFrost. Why? Just because he wants to start a random wagon on you?

[Col.Cathart]

unvote

vote: Marcosh

I’m not trying to discredit RayFrost. I’m also not certain that RayFrost’s vote on me was wholly random either, particularly given that he made seven posts specifically targeting me.

Don't change the topic please. If you're not trying to to discredit him, then what was your reasoning behind post 42?

I know it looks like I'm just hounding after you, Col, but what kind of question is this? Do you see it as a problem that someone wants to discredit their random attackers? I certianly don't.

In this particular case - I do. And how...

I normally don't mind when other people are jokingly shrugging off their attackers, but Marc's post 42 looked like an attempt to make RF a Village Idiot, who's opinion should be disregarded on sight. True, he definitely underperformed my only game with him so far, but I read some other games, and I know, he can do the job just fine. I didn't vote Marc right then, as I thought it might be another RVS joke, but his latest reaction rubbed me the wrong way, as he seems to trying to talk as less as possible about it.

[Col.Cathart]

I disagree, Ray.

RVS essentially ended with post 31, with me questioning the wisdom of the sweep bandwagon (also demonstrating an inability to add).

You continued with your random bandwagon on macrosh after that.

A little more on the scummy side, Mr. Frost.

Sooooooooo... your small question was the "end" of the RVS, then?

I guess we'll have to merely disagree, then.

Do you really think, this is relevant, who actually ended the RVS stage?

[Col.Cathart]

He made it relevant by making it a point against me.

I'm taking him seriously.

Wait, let me try to get your point - You're thinking that you were the one who ended the RVS, and Bach is ??? (<--- this is the point I don't get) for suggesting otherwise?

Care to elaborate your case here?

[Col.Cathart]

Pablo wrote earlier, that he's going to be away for the weekend.

I would appreciate it if you gave input as to your opinions on the exchange between Bach and myself.

I would also appreciate it if you did not take your sweet time about contributing.

Null tell on both sides. Discussion about who ended the RVS stage is IMO pointless anyway, as it's not even a strong town-tell, so there's nothing to fight for here.

That said, I'm not buying Ray's explanation about his defensiveness. True, some people are definitely too silent, and they should post like right now, but don't tell me there's absolutely nothing to look for. For example what do you think about my vote on Marcosh? This vote is 100% serious.

[Col.Cathart]

Hello IKD. Glad to see you again.

Bach: Why the unvote without voting anyone else? Little pressure is still better that none at all IMO. You cannot generate any heat (which leads us to more discussion. more discussions = good for town) without voting on anyone.

[Col.Cathart]

IKD: Bleh, wall of text. Yeah, I know our first game on this site was full of those text walls, but that doesn't mean we have to continue this tradition. You can do the overall analysis without breaking down every single word. I don't have much time now (damn finals...), but I'll read that later.

To the new players - of course one liners are equally bad, but try to say what you want without too many words.

The only thing of note Col. Cathart has done is announcing his bandwagon on Sweep. He said he was doing it for reactions and to push us out of RVS but he dropped it immediately after being questioned about it. This seems odd to me, if you're doing it for reactions why drop it so quickly?

Overall very slight scum read on CC.

Huh? Either it's me, or you missed something. I dropped it, because I had all the reactions I wanted (ok, except from Sweep, my bad). I also posted my thoughts about it, so I don't know where is your point coming from.

[Col.Cathart]

I just started replacing Sweep today, so this may be a little late, but Col.Cathart seems to be changing his mind a good deal. Does this seem scummy to anyone else but me?

About? I have voted only once since the end of RVS, if you mean the voting.

[Col.Cathart]

CC:
Chasing after some weak arguments in order to "promote discussion" and stuff. Slightly scummy.

Weak argument is still better than no arguments at all.

Fortunately, I don't have much courses tomorrow, so the promised re-read should be done today in the evening.

[Col.Cathart]

No argument can't backfire like a weak one can.

Making the weak argument, and discussing it --> More conversation --> More potential slips --> Stronger arguments --> Town is moving forward --> Good thing.

Making no argument at all --> Stalling the discussion --> Silence in the thread --> No good scum candidate --> Bad thing.

Yep, I still think making weak arguments is better than not making them at all.

And besides, what kind of strong argument you want to make at the beginning of the game? There's just not enough info to make it right of the bat.

Promised re-read in progress.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, re-read done. Opinion on players:

Bach: I like his play so far. One of the most active players around, has some attempts on scumhunting, I can already see that he played this game before, and he's doing it quite well. His unvoting Ray without moving toward any other target seems weird, but I don't think it's a really strong tell. Not scummy.

Drizzt/Evilgorillaz: Drizzt did giant nothing, EG just replaced in. His first two posts are quite decent though. Null with slightly lean on the pro-town side.

Marcosh/Imkingdavid - Marcosh was my primary target, and since he left without answering my last question, that one will go to the scum tells for the rest of the game. About IKD - I see, that you changed much since our first game Anyway, I don't like that PbPa. It's IMO useless as it mostly neutral comment about every post. You should stay with those few words of summary at the end + point out the things that bugs you. Otherwise it looks like you're trying to create a mess. Scummy read.

I'll wait patiently for the rest of you analysis though.

Pablo Molinero - He's not very active, but I cannot really blame him, since I have the exams on my back as well No read currently, because most of his posts are fluff/excuses for inactivity. I hope, he'll be more active in the future. Null read.

Parts - Well, he's certainly doing something for the discussion, but he has some of his share of useless posts, that are bringing nothing, and they are just 'there' to exist (like iso 6, 10, second point in iso 11, and the follow up in iso 12), which kinda weakens my town read on him. Not completely thought. Slightly town ATM.

RayFrost - If you'll take a correction at his usual playstyle, you'll find quite active, pro-acting player, who actually IS scumhunting. Not scummy.

Selecao/Rewq - No read so far. He seems to be more interested in me, than any other player ATM, but it's too early to tell right now. I'm waiting for some serious contribution. Null read.

Sweep - He's not very active himself, and yet he refuses to say anything more, and wants other to speak. Ho hum. He unvotes Ray, while he's still saying, he's slightly scummy. If he had some other suspect, then sure, but in that case... Ho hum. Scummy read.

tl;dr version:

I think that IKD and Sweep are the most scummy people here ATM. My vote stays on IKD for now, but I don't have a problem with changing it to Sweep in any moment. I can even change it very soon, depending on promised next part of IKD analysis, and Sweep's promised re-read.

[Col.Cathart]

- To the town: do we want a role-claim from Sweep?

Well, since you almost voted him, and I find him suspicious as well, I think... Yes.

[Col.Cathart]

That's OZ to you.

I think it's a strong town tell for you to unvote there...unless Sweep is scum.

For the record - Don't be so sure of it... That kind of action may be a good smokescreen for scum, even if the wagoned person is town, as seen here, where Sigma used that tactic on D1 (even more, he later changed the wagon in direction of his own buddy), to pretty much be without any suspicion for almost entire game.

I think, in both ways, this is a null-tell, due to huge WIFOM potential with that kind of action.

I have some more thoughts about the latest situation, but I won't reveal them just yet. Carry on with discussion, I'm interested in posts of certain people.

[Col.Cathart]

I have some more thoughts about the latest situation, but I won't reveal them just yet. Carry on with discussion, I'm interested in posts of certain people.

You have any views on this discussion?

As I said - yes, but I want to hear some more from Bach, You, Ray and others, before telling it.

[Col.Cathart]

Col.Cathart, what's with the secrecy/caution? Deliberately waiting to add your input makes you look like you're waiting to compose the "smartest" response based on other people's reads and suspicions. As town you should rely on your own reads, while it looks plenty scummy to take the more cautious route. Particularly since I know you're an experienced player.

Huh? I guess you misunderstood me. I don't want to wait and see other people's case and suspicions and use them. I'm not cautious. Exactly the opposite. I spotted something (at least I think so) interesting, but without certain another reaction, it's not really a scumtell. If I would reveal it now, I would end up with a weak tell and nothing else. Instead, I'll keep it to myself for a while, and hopefully, we'll have a fireworks soon enough

Parts, if I am correct the while case against me revolves around the fact that I unvoted for Ray and did not vote for anyone else. Why is this so scummy? I havn't jumped on anyone else (some might say that its because it would be too obvious) but the logical and rational reason is that I am not scum. People can FoS people all the time which in effect is finding them scummy, how is just placing someone under suspicion different to taking a vote off and keeping the suspicion on.

Not voting for anyone and FoSing like crazy IS scummy IMO. Being overly cautious and not generating heat at all, leads to stalling the discussion. Stalling the discussion --> scummy.

Your vote should always be placed on someone. After all, except from the hammer, those votes won't kill that person, and it may 'convince' them to talk some more, while FoS can be shrugged off pretty easily.

Conclusion: Give me a good reason, why you you should FoS instead of vote. Just one.

Someone tried to explain last game to me but i still don't understand what WIFOM is.

WIFOM --> Wine In Front Of Me (named after situation from 'Princess Bride', where one of the characters had to choose one of the chalices with wine. One was poisoned, the other was not [or at least, that's what they told him, as both chalices were poisoned]). It's basically every situation which leads to 'but maybe that's what scum WANTS me to think!' line of reasoning.

WIFOM example ---> 'Why would I vote for him (confirmed scum via lynch), if I would be scum as well? Scum wouldn't do that!'

'But maybe that's what the scum want us to think, and that's you voted him'

etc.

[Col.Cathart]

Why dont you help us get that reaction then?

Well, how do you know, I'm not?

All in all, if my vote is on sweep (too lazy to check), I'm happy with it.

It's not. You unvoted him due to L-1.

[Col.Cathart]

While I am here: what does ISO mean?

Reading someone's post in ISO means reading their posts in isolation.

Under your quick reply box, you have something like that:

Display posts from previous: All posts by All users Older First. Change 'All users' to a single one, you wish to check in ISO, and here you have it.

rewq: I'm yet to see any recap on your overall thoughts, since you replaced in. I see opinion on Bach... And nothing else. Does anyone else look suspicious to you?

[Col.Cathart]

Blargh, Exams...

I'll try to do a re-read later today, and I'll be back to you in a while.

[Col.Cathart]

I like Bach's playstyle. A bit dangerous, but pretty effective in getting reactions. Actually, I think he's one of the most pro-town people here, so I'm not going to support that wagon. Also, I have my eyes on the people on his wagon. EG's post above is super weak, and IMO scummy. Rewq is giving me pretty scummy signals, mostly due to his reaction to my posts about 'catching something'. But that's still #2 on my list, and the #1 goes to:

Unvote
Vote: Sweep

L-1 once again. He followed rewq on the Bach wagon way too quickly, and without strong reasons. He admitted, that he was lurking. Finally, he lately committed one of the most classic scumtells:

Firstly I would appreciate it if people did not feel as though they had time to contribute to the discussion unvoted me so that I was not lynched at deadline by votes places a week earlier.

Why so scared about the lynch? I saw that kind of reaction several times already... And it rarely comes from a townie. Even more! I reacted just like that in my first game as a scum on this site.

My scumlist for the moment:

Sweep
Rewq
Evilgorillaz/IKD.

[Col.Cathart]

I understand the reasons why you think Evilgorrilaz and I are scum, but why IKD?

He's the replacement of Marcosh, who was my top suspect in early game, and his scumtells are gonna stay with IKD for the rest of the game. Apart from that I have a gut feeling. Oh, and I found it interesting, he wasn't on the list of people I want to discuss some more, and yet he asked, what is HE supposed to talk about. Almost as he really felt insecure about me observing the players.

[Col.Cathart]

EG and Pablo: I disagree with both of you. As I said, my past experience so far are giving me a clear conclusion, that people scared of lynch, are more likely scum than town. Mostly because scum has much more to lose with every lost member than town. That, and this is psychological effect - if you're the bad guy, every accusation at you makes you much more nervous, than if you're good guy, because the good guy knows he's innocent.

But that's only my point of view. IMO this IS scumtell, and after adding other things he had done (quick follow up on Bach counterwagon, lurking etc.) seals him as a scum in my book.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, I'll begin this post with a little WIFOM and say this: @Pablo (and Col.C, I guess also), when have you known me to be quiet as scum? If you'll remember in our last game together, I was scum and I was very out spoken and such. If you're one to meta, you'll realize that in all of my other games, available on my wiki page, (all as town so far) I have been much less vocal. Except, maybe the other one I'm currently in, since I'm an IC and it's my role to be more vocal. I guess it's just more exciting to play as scum. That's something that I need to fix soon though, since eventually people will figure out that my activity sometimes has to do with my role. But that's besides the point.

This post is sponsored by letters: W H A T E V E R.

I changed a lot since Newbie 802. You as well. Pablo too to lesser extent. I'm not a fan of meta checking, unless I'm playing with someone in two games at once, since it hard to do multiple playstyles with the same roles at the same time.

So yeah, I don't like this argument at all.

I'm ok with those lynches:

Sweep (still preferable, so my vote stays)
IKD/Evilgorillaz (both of them recently managed to make a lot of scummy points)
Rewq (nothing worse, nothing better since the last time)

[Col.Cathart]

@Col: aww shucks; didn't make number 1 on your list.
btw, you've got almost half the town there. Actually, minus yourself, that is half the town. Wish to add any more people to your suspect list? There's 4 more to choose from.
btw, there are only 2 scum in this game. Just thought I'd remind you.

Eh? You're trying to provoke me or something? I think, you know exactly what I meant here.

If somehow not: players not mentioned on this list are either obv or probtown. All of the players mentioned here are probscum. I hnt scum, so I'm willing to lynch either of probscum players. Clear enough?

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, since lynching Sweep is now impossible...

unvote

vote: Imkingdavid

[Col.Cathart]

Busy weekend. I'll try to post my suspicions as well as respond to Ray, but I'm not promising anything.

[Col.Cathart]

Finally some free time...

First of all, a word of explanation - that 'thing' I noticed and promised fireworks was a hoax. I wanted to see how people will react to it. Everyone except from IKD and Rewq reacted correctly (either ignored it, and waited patiently for the results, or in case of Ray [since his name was thrown into a sentence off the hat] asked what's the deal with him in that discussion.

IKD asked the same question as Ray, despite me not mentioning him at all. I found it weird. He was lynched and flipped town though, so my assumptions were wrong here.

Rewq on the other hand, was pressing me all the time to reveal myself several times, at the cost of weakening the tell. I find it scummy. You looked like you were seriously worried about my observations, and trying to weaken it didn't help at all.

Apart from Rewq, I'm still suspicious of Sweep. I don't really know, why his wagon was derailed yesterday, as I didn't see anything that would justify his action, tbh.

And there's Evilgorillaz. Normally I would also approve his lynch, but not now, looking at the situation. He's got a vote already and 3 people already declared, they are fine with his lynch (that's enough to lynch BTW) (EDIT: that was written before Parts's unvote). Too fast. Way too fast. Looks like EG is a typical 'lynch target' for scum, as it won't be hard to lynch him, and stay relatively out of suspicions.

What surprised me the most, is the fact, Ray also wants EG lynch. I mean...

@ Town: can we get a CC lynch, he's so obviously scum that it's hurting my senses.

If I'm so obviously scum (we'll get to it in a moment), then why do you want the lynch of anyone else? You got the obv scum after all... [/sarcasm]

Ok, to the point. Gotta say, that for that kind of strong accusation, your argument are really weak.

I feel that, though he's asked questions, he hasn't taken a role that is very distinct or pro-active in helping the town. This helps scum and is scummy.

This need a proper expansion, unless you want to say that asking questions is actually scummy.

Besides - I was fishing for reaction. Twice. I found my own arguments on Sweep, Rewq and Marcosh (later IKD). This is called 'scumhunt' and it helps the town. And now you're telling me I'm not pro-active in helping the town. So yeah, I totally disagree here.

The motivation I can come up with for him just sticking to the background is to 1. let the town tear at each other & 2. to avoid notice

This is simply not true. Me? In the background? Sorry, but as I said already, I was fishing for reaction twice (with early Sweep wagon, and later with 'the thing I noticed'). Bot of those action were putting me in a spotlight. How in the nine hells those actions are supposed to help me stick in the background.

The bottom line is - your arguments makes no sense. I don't know how did you came up with both of those things, but they are not true, and calling me 'obv scum' based on them is preposterous.

EDIT after hitting preview button:

Parts: Enlighten me why.

[Col.Cathart]

I'll let Ray explain. If he's doing what I think he's doing this is the right move.

vote: Parts

Sheeping. Very, very

VERY

scummy.

[Col.Cathart]

This is not jumping out to me in your ISO. Post #?

ISO 20, my response to Pablo.

About EG: Yeah, I know he committed scummy things, but the amount of people declaring eagerness to lynch him, makes me think, that he's a easy target for scum to park their votes. Part's sheeping on me seems to confirm my theory, as it looks like he found the juicer target for easy lynch.

About Sweep: In my last newbie game, my scumpartner got the label of a 'newbie', which helped us greatly in achieving the victory. After that I'm not gonna buy that kind of argument ever again.

Rewq: I told at the time, that it can give us a weak tell instead of a strong one. One weak tell probably wouldn't change much, and D1 mislynch is not a terrible thing (it's better to mislynch on D1 and catch scum on D2, rather than other way around). You can see more connections between the scum an his eventual partner this way), so I think that was unnecessary on your part. I'm still keeping you in my mind, though thanks to latest posts, you got are a bit down on my suspect list.

[Col.Cathart]

This game is awesome. So many gambits flying around

Still waiting for Parts to post.

Is it that important to wait for him? (note --> yes/no + insight is a suitable answer)

Also, I missed this one earlier, but spotted it on the re-read:

@Ray, Parts: My 'huh' was directed at you two. I was really curious what you had going on with Col.C,

cause he was striking me as too trustworthy.

What do you mean by that?

[Col.Cathart]

CC: Do you honestly think I jumped on you because you were an “easier” lynch target than EG?
Edit: Just saw your post so you know it was a gambit but I still would like this answered.

Well, not the point anymore, but at the time I had 'Ray fakeclaims cop, Parts follows, wagon goes off' suspicions (though now as I look at it, it wouldn't make sense at all, as we're not in LyLo).

Sheeping is very scummy though, no matter how you look at it. Even if you believed, Ray is the cop, following him blindly was really bad.

[Col.Cathart]

@CC
4 people (not including you) expressed their intentions to lynch me. Who among those do you think would be on it for an easy lynch?

Bach unlikely. I feel his reasons were genuine + general town behavior during entire game, so I don't think so.

Parts very probably. He already knew from Bach's FoS, that there are others who will support that lynch, and his later sheeping after Ray are pretty strong arguments for it.

Ray... I don't know what to think of it. His intention to lynch EG was thrown out of the context while going after my skin, and I'm not really sure, what he was trying to accomplish by saying it.

Rewq probably. That claim question makes me think that. I mean 'does anyone else?' IMO in this context means 'who wants to vote for EG as well?', because if someone wouldn't want to lynch him would never ask for a claim. Actually asking for claim, when he's still far from lynch is an act against the town. Claim should be used as a last resort, when you're at L-1 and someone wants to hammer you. At any point closer, this can only benefit scum in quest of searching potential power roles.

[Col.Cathart]

What do you think of CC's reaction then? Do you think CC is justified in finding rewq scummy for asking the question and not the fair enough?

Missing the pretty important part of the point. Somewhere near the deadline, Rewq also asked to reveal my observations to get some bonus insight at the deadline, at the cost of weakening the tell. That was also bothering me. Another weak tell wouldn't really help us much in deadline, and it would prevent us from having potential strong tell later.

What do you think about Rewq's asking for a role claim by me?

Isn't Ray voting for Rewq? What is the point in asking him a question about someone he votes for (--> he thinks is scummy), and not about others?

Your lynch would be easier then my lynch?

It could be. Look at this situation: Ray is adamant on 'CC is scum stance'. Parts follows immediately. Reason he gives? 'I think that Ray is cop'. Everyone else (possible scum): 'Oh. You may have a point. Let's check it then'. That would be a very easy mislynch, either set up by scum, or followed by one with 0% chance of detection ('but I was thinking I was following the cop!').

Of course, the situation above could only happen, if Ray really did a cop fakeclaim, or just said noting to confirm it or deny it. Unlikely now, but at the time there was a possibility like that.

[Col.Cathart]

Anyway, as I said earlier, I don't believe that EG is scum. I think it's two people from Parts/Rewq/Sweep group.

In fact,

unvote

vote: Rewq

L-1.

Only week more, and evidence against him are piling up, and sadly, people are not interested in Parts lynch. It's decision time, and he's the only one of my 3 suspects who is possible lynch range.

[Col.Cathart]

EBWOP: I mixed up this game with other, in which deadline is in a week. Vote still stands though, as it would be dead vote on Parts for now.

[Col.Cathart]

How about this: Stop posting bullshit and make a proper case on Rewq if you think he's the scummiest around. My pro-town read is on the straight road to hell right now.

[Col.Cathart]

Rewq and EG - Is this the end of your discussion, or you have something more to say in that case? Because I don't really see the conclusion of 426-430 discussion...

[Col.Cathart]

Combined forces of new job and university pretty much drained 99% of my time and strength to write and contribute here. I'll try to actually be useful the first moment I'll have some free time, and energy to play this game.

Though this game is stalled horribly, so not much to add right now anyway. Despite latest bullshit of EG, I still like Rewq lynch more, so no vote change from me.

[Col.Cathart]

NO VOTES. We're in lylo now.

Wise words.

With Ray's death, I have to assume our scum buddies are Col C. and EG. Col. C has been staying away from EG for the most part. He's also been very friendly and supportive of me all game...and damn me for falling for it.

Those - not so much. Reasoning 'the must both be scum, because they were on his wagon' is just plain wrong. 4 people made that lynch, Ray included, who is now a confirmed town. Sure, there's a chance that someone actually was on scum on this wagon, but

a) I know my role, I'm not a mafia.
b) Believe it or not, I still have town read on EG
c) I have a town read on you
d) Ray is confirmed innocent.

So I don't think this wagon was scummy at all. Besides, why are you still not considering the option 'EG is not guilty, and his wagon was scummy'? Remember, that rewq's mis-lynch doesn't automatically removes th other possibility, as EG, and both people who wagoned him are still alive.

Yes, that means I suspect Parts/Sweep scumpair. Sweep was given a free pass for entire D2, and IMO this is a crucial mistake. As I said, playing the 'n00b' card on my buddy got me a win in other game as a scum, so I'm not going to lose this one as a town, because of similar reason.

Parts had a terribad D2 with Sheeping after Ray, and then following the easy wagon on EG.

I don't care in which order, but Sweep and Parts should be the lynch for the next 2 days.

[Col.Cathart]

Guys? Am I the only one alive here?

[Col.Cathart]

Sorry, work + studies are giving me a really hard time.

CC: Why do you think me and Sweep are more likely mafia than EG is? How sure are you that the mafia team is me and sweep instead of me + somebody else or sweep + somebody else?

Bach is an avatar of being town, so every pairing with him is excluded.

EG started of really well with his first few posts. He started acting really weird at the end of D1, so it's unlikely for it, to be a scum gambit (as a replacement, he couldn't plan anything before D1, and he started doing it before D2. It still beats me, why he started behaving like that though...). And on D2, he was for too juicy and easy lynch target. That kind of wagons on anti-town behaving players are usually containing one or both scum.

That leaves you and Sweep, which is fine with me for reasons explained in my previous post.

@ColCathart: Sweep/Parts? Are you saying Parts was bussing Sweep on Day 1?

Why not? That's pretty usual tactic for scum to distance themselves early in the game.

[Col.Cathart]

Finally weekend. I should be more active now.

Massclaim seems fine to me. I nominate Parts for the first claim.

[Col.Cathart]

So are you saying that I shouldn't be aiming to get anti-town players lynched?

Anti-town =/= scummy. Even more! It's a perfect dtarget for scum to park a vote, or make a typical case 'he's not helping, acts like a Village Idiot' etc. I see the EG wagon as exactly than kind of scum driven wagon on VI.

[Col.Cathart]

Well, not much difference to me, since I think Sweep was a scum, and so do you in this case, so I'll be skeptical to whatever you'll say. Wait for the massclaim, if that will help you formulate your thoughts though...

[Col.Cathart]

I didn't notice Bach posting a seconds before me, sorry for being unclear.

and so do you

(Zachrulez)

in this case

(which is being a replacement of Sweep)

[Col.Cathart]

Well no, what's confusing me is why you would claim I would think sweep was scum.

I am Sweep.

I know. And I never said anything that would indicate otherwise. You misinterpret my sentence. I should have write it more clearly.

So, to end all the doubts:

I think Sweep was scum.

You are Sweep.

I think you are a scum.

[Col.Cathart]

Oh, you mean and so you. Not so do you.

What? I don't get this one.

Have some mercy, man. I'm not a native English speaker

[Col.Cathart]

Looks like the majority wants to start from me...

claim: Vanilla

Sorry, no fireworks here.

Now, Parts please.

[Col.Cathart]

@ColCathart: Describe, in detail, how EG is different from Sweep. Both have been bad n00bs in my eyes. What is the difference between them? Why is Sweep a better target than EG?

EG is a newbie? His join date might be deceiving... But even after ignoring this point:

I don't see EG as a newbie. He acts like a typical Village Idiot anti-town player. Bad at this game? Sure. Unhelpful? Undoubtedly. Annoying? Like hell. But none of those points mean 'scum.' We have a few players like him on the board, who are behaving like that regardless of alignment. Also, I said it multiple times already, but the reaction of people on his wagon on D2 makes me think he's not the right lynch.

Sweep on the other hand committed several acts more common for newb scum rather than newb town (like lurking for example. Townie don't have much reasons to lurk. But scum do. The fact he admitted it means, he either didn't know how bad lurking is on this site, or he tried to go away with 'look, I'm honest. Honest people are not scum, right?' gambit). I though he would be lynched on D1, but instead, someone just played a newb card on him, and this allowed him to coast right here to lylo. Big mistake IMO.

[Col.Cathart]

I actually was in a game with EG that is still ongoing, and the feelings toward desiring his lynch are similar. I think EG has that kind of playing style where people want to lynch him no matter what. Are you really certain that EG is town because of this and that there's no chance that one of his many attackers could happen to be his scumbuddy?

I cannot say he's town BECAUSE of this kind of behavior. I think he's town, because I see definitely too much typical scum easy tactic to vote someone just because they are anti-town.

That being said, I have to admit, I didn't consider the option you just presented. I will definitely do some re-read shortly to see if this is possible. Just gut-wise I think it's unlikely, but I'll check it.

Can you explain why you find Parts scummy for me? I think it stems from his sheeping from day 2, which I am consequently going to take another look at. Can you confirm that this is what you find scummy about him? (Along with any other points against him that aren't standing out to me at the moment?)

Yes, I still think it's scummy. Following the leader (or in this case 'possible cop') without any personal insight is pretty common for newbscum.

Apart from that, he shuffled his vote on D2 between easy wagon (EG) and possible even easier wagon (me, if Ray for some bizarre reason would fakeclaim Cop). Not much, but this + gut tells me he's scum.

And BTW, massclaim happened. Care to share your opinions now?

[Col.Cathart]

I don't have much time right now. I'll answer Zach's accusations the first moment, I'll have some free time (probably tomorrow).

Also:

Mod: I will be V/LA from Wednesday 23 to Monday 28, due to Christmas.

[Col.Cathart]

Back from my holiday.

It's awfully late for me right now. Give me a few hours to sleep off, get a chance to catch up with other games (not much to catch up here), and I'll be back for discussion.

[Col.Cathart]

Bad idea people. Really bad.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, Important announcement:

First of all

yes, I am a scum.

Second thing: No, I wasn't intentionally lurking. I had a really busy time lately, and I couldn't contribute here as much as I wanted with work, Christmas/New Years Eve preparations/other games where some crazy shit were going on as well.

That being said, I don't expect anyone to believe me at this point. And now, with 6 days till deadline 4 people who want my blood, and completely shitty D3 performance, I know I can't turn things around.

I know when to give up, and the time is now.

Sorry scumbuddy for screwing up. Sorry everybody for a lousy D3 play.

[Col.Cathart]

Phew, glad we won. Great work, Lacey!

Couple words of explanation:

The real reason 'I gave up' was because, Zach found the right track with the point, Parts's sheeping only makes sense if we're both scum. I really, REALLY,

REALLY

didn't want to answer that question, because frankly, I found myself cornered here. I simply didn't know what to say to not spill the beans. So I decided to just stay shut permanently and end the day as soon as possible. Confessing was the easiest way. I admit, that was cowardly, but I would rather do a thing such as this, rather than slip something more and bury the chances for victory. It paid off after all.

Second thing: Lacey, did you actually read our quicktopic? I found it extremely surprising, that you actually killed EG, instead of Zach. That was our initial plan with Parts - pair ourselves with two townies, so no matter who gets lynched, it will create a mislynch on following day. I tried to create Parts-Sweep pair (and possibly I could get away with it, if not for you, you meddli... I mean Zach ), while he pretty well created (with the help of Bach) created Me-EG pair. When Zach shown up and went with Me-Bach pair, I was pretty sure, you'll just off Zach, and watch as Bach/Slaxx will instantly vote themselves for our win.

But, you won this game for us anyway, so big congratulations.

[Col.Cathart]

Also - I called our victory with parts between D2 and D3, after Zach came in to crash the party, I was going to beat myself to death for celebrating too early. You did great job - almost worked us out.

From scum perspective from two newbie, heavy replacement games, I gotta say, people who are saying, replacements hurts town, are wrong. It's much easier to create shenanigans at the beginning of the game, and keep fooling people who often depend on their memories, rather than defend yourself properly, when someone new catches something with his fresh eye.

About attacking my own roleblocker - For the record, if we'll paly in the same game in future - I LOVE attacking my scum-buddies power roles. Mostly because 95% of players consider this a huge town tell and let's me/him work with more comfort, as people are not suspecting you. And IMO mafia is capable of winning without any power roles, even with some power roles on the town side, so I already used to like this strategy.

[Col.Cathart]

Yo, sup scum?

Mind if we see the qt?

I am so depressed about Bach. He looked like obvscum to me. I'm surprised parts didn't go along with me and win the game right there.

Here you go.

[Col.Cathart]

I think you just have to roleplay. Step back and view the game as a story. Create a new role for yourself and sort out how you would feel as that player, including about your real role.

Sometimes, that's just impossible to continue the act, if for example someone puts a mad pressure on you, and you'll eventually act out of the character... Which will be even worse for you (if you'll ever stumble across player named 'Charter', watch out. When he's targeting someone - he pursues him/her to the end, when he started attacking me when I was a town power role, I lost my nerves and claimed my role way too early, and town lynched me ['because only scum claims so early']). Second personality works perfectly as long, as you have more or less safe position. And that's never guaranteed to stay for entire game.

[Col.Cathart]

Ya, you can do that, and that's what I try to do when I'm scum.

But having the knowledge from the pm is the part that makes it hard for me... and knowing I'm scum kills my whole motivation for pretending.

I think you just have to roleplay. Step back and view the game as a story. Create a new role for yourself and sort out how you would feel as that player, including about your real role.

How do you feel playing scum kills your motivation for pretending?

Just that I enjoy being town and I enjoy the hunt. When I'm scum, I'm not really doing any of that, I'm just pretending to do it. Mainly that I tend to only view mafia in general from a town perspective. (And have for a long time ever since my town game has grown past my mafia game.) When I am scum it's just like... well blegh for me. I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Actually, I prefer being scum rather than town, but In my last 3 games I was either scum or Serial Killer, and since those games were taking place simultaneously, that was really exhausting job, and I'll now give a warm welcome to any townie role, even vanilla Being scum is still awesome though. Much more plans, much more tactics, much more emotions, and much bigger satisfaction, if you'll manage to fool the town

[Col.Cathart]

Also, looks like I'm better as scum. I have 3-1 record so far, and that one loss was really a close call. As a town, I have only 2 wins, and one of them wasn't even my work.