Newbie 816 - Game over!

[Manzcar]

Hello all I'll do a read through and post as soon as possible.

[Manzcar]

Okay I have read through the thread and there are things that caught my eye.

zwets, I don't know Adel so I don't know how he plays so you may not be able to clear this up for me, but Adel kept changing votes the first two seemed to be RVS, but then the vote on EB to put him at L-2 for no apparent reason seemed strange, then he changed votes again to HF because he felt that HF was the best canidate for being scum because he had the most possible scum partners, and then his last vote was for IKD for what seems to be OMGUS reasoning.

To me the flow of votes seems strange. But then you went and said this

zwets said

Ok, first, I'm not Adel. Adel is a scumhunting master, logical bonanzical schmu, and in my opinion the best player on the site.

Is there any reason why you needed to make sure everyone knew he was a scumhunting master?

Adel obviously had a problem with IKD even calling him a scumbag and you didn't have many nice words to say about him either. Do you find IKD scummy as well? And if so what makes you think he is?

[Manzcar]

HFitz and Tfrench you both put pancakes at L-1 and you both seem to be lurking around the thread. besides pancakes who is getting replaced who else do you find scummy and why?

Mod it seems tfrench hasn't posted for 72 hours can we get a prod

Already done.

[Manzcar]

Cird your vote is still on pancakes do you still believe that his action was scummy?

What are your thoughts on the bandwagon of pancakes and now tfrench?

[Manzcar]

dramonic you voted Adel for bandwagoning

unvote; vote: Adel

No. You are an IC, you should know better than to put someone at l-2 in a game where the newbies can EASILY quicklynch.

And then you unvoted

unvote; vote: Adel

No. You are an IC, you should know better than to put someone at l-2 in a game where the newbies can EASILY quicklynch.

take a look at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... uthor=Adel to see how many posts I've made on this site since I placed him at lynch -2. No quicklynch was going to happen.

How does that relate to anything?

also,

unvote

Too quick to be at l-1.

But you didn't give a reason for your unvote. Why did you feel you should unvote Adel?

Also what do you think of players that seem to jump from bandwagon to bandwagon?

[Manzcar]

EBad you start the Pancakes bandwagon

EBad said

Unvote Adel, Vote Pancakes

Either not reading through the thread, not bothering to give a counter opinion, or not caring about it.

EBad said

FOS Cirdua.

The rush to a new bandwagon up to L-1 implies scum are jumping on it, and that implies they don't like the existing bandwagon.

Also FOS on Fitz for putting the wagon 1 vote from a lynch.

Finally, if one of Cirdua or Pancakes are mafia, it's unlikely the other is; hard to see both those wagons being all townies.

Then you followed Adel

unvote, vote:havingfitz

Then you followed IKD

Unvote Fitz, Vote tfrench.

You seem to have been on all three of the major bandwagons of the game so far. You also stated as underlined above that rushing to bandwagons is a scum tell. If we are to believe you that rushing to bandwagons how do you explain your bandwagon jumping?

[Manzcar]

IKD said

imo, the 3rd spot is a very safe space to pile on. Because you aren't the hammer and you didn't put the person at L-1, and on the same token you didn't help initiate a bandwagon by being one of the first two. Let me tell you that multiple times I've seen scum be the third on bandwagon and slip by. Maybe not because of that, but it didn't put suspicion on them in any case.

But you have concentrated your suspicions and conversation on HFitz and tfrench. Why have you not looked at the others on the bandwagon? What do you think of dram and EBad jumping multiple bandwagons?

[Manzcar]

Unvote

[Manzcar]

@ EB I don't think that using votes as pressure is our only weapon. I believe questioning people and understanding motives is also a viable weapon that we have to use. It allows us to understand peoples motives and then guage whether those motives are there to benefit the town or scum. And when something seems off or weird to me I ask the question for clarification and then guage the response.

My understanding of a wagon is when multiple people vote for the same person. what you described is that you can't be part of two of the three wagons because you were the first and second vote on two of them. Regardless to the fact that the votes got to three or more votes on each of the players in question. If you use my understanding you were part of all three wagons, but using your understanding you were only part of one. So I was not misrepresenting the facts to my knowledge but doing so to your knowledge.

My purpose to asking the question is to gain understanding and clarification to things that seem off to me. I was trying to understand your voting pattern with relationship to the statement that you made. I asked questions of everyone, accept pancakes who is getting replaced, because I want to understand gain insight on everyone.

Do you believe we should be asking questions to understand others motives?

@dramonic okay I thought that is what you meant but by my count there were only two votes so it seemed weird that you would unvote and state that you were doing so because Adel was at L-1 when he was at L-3.

[Manzcar]

EB I did answer what my purpose was to asking you the question. I wanted to get an understanding of you. I wan't trying to build a case against you, I wasn't attacking you, and I didn't find you scummy. In fact you cleared up my confusion with your post and the fact that the band wagons you mention in your statement is not the same way that I was thinking of bandwagons, and I thought I conveyed that but obviously didn't.

By voting pattern I meant your votes nothing more. I wasn't trying to convey that there was some pattern that should be analyzed and used against you. I find the reasoning behind your votes to be logical both HFitz and tfrench jumped on a bandwagon to force an L-1 situation. You even have logic behind your current vote of me.

Again the purpose of my question to you and everyone else was to gain information and not to cast suspicion.

[Manzcar]

Cird said

Maybe not that scummy, he was a newbie and, judging by his absence, one not too interested in this game (maybe because of our no-nolynch way of playing). He's getting replaced anyway so I'll unvote.

Also, you don't need to make a new post for every person you want to cast suspicion on, you can just say something like "@ Pancakes" to indicate who you are going to question next. I've noticed you did your best to cast suspicion on almost everyone, are you trying to avoid getting the players' attention on yourself? Just asking.

I thought separating it would allow an easier read through for everyone else. Mega long posts that jump from person to person I find hard to follow. I wasn’t trying to cast suspicions I was just asking questions. Though it is WIFOM how does asking everyone questions not put attention on myself. In fact it has done the opposite if I am not mistaken. My goal for asking all the questions is to get a feeling on people when they answer the questions I ask. I actually feel that pancakes knew he wasn’t coming back and voted no lynch to get the reaction it had. But I also believe that one or both of the scum jumped on the wagon to try and get a quick lynch.

[Manzcar]

HFitz, I know your wading through a lot of information but can you share who your top suspects are besides pancakes?

Tfrench, besides the original question asked, I would like to know if you would have hammered pancakes if EBad had not unvoted?

[Manzcar]

Princess, welcome to the game.

Princess said

Can I ask everyone what is your experience of mafia? I would just like to see how new people really are.

Before coming to this site I played some with friends on another site. They were nothing as serious or hard-core as what is played here. They were mostly just joke around games, which didn’t serve me well at the start of my first game here. I have completed one newbie game (802) and have currently replaced into 3 other newbie games (809, 814, 816). I am still learning a lot, but I like it.


@HFitz you said a few days ago that you were wading through the thread again. What are your thoughts on possible suspects? You seem to be lurking and I am unsure about you right now. You stated that you were going to make an effort to be more vocal, but have not.

V/LA Friday August 7th through Sunday August 9th

I will have my I-Phone with me so I will be able to contribute but I will be busy so it will be sporadic at best.

[Manzcar]

HFitz - There is no other evidence that can support a vote on pancakes / princess other than his no lynch vote. He had three posts two of which were his no lynch vote. I just don't see the logic in you wanting to keep your vote on pancakes / princess. would you feel comfortable lynching princess on pancakes no lynch vote?

[Manzcar]

Mod i unvoted in post 151

[Manzcar]

If I read the rule right

mod please correct me if I am wrong- at the dead line the first person to reach three or more votes will be lynched

so dram you wanting to put the fear of a nolynch possibility strikes me as odd. Also just jumping on a bandwagon for no other reason but to get a lynch does not seem protown. You can gain leads from a mislynch only if you can understand and question peoples motives for their vote. If their reason is because we needed a lynch that give us no clues to question or pressure them. People should vote based on their evidence, logic, and gut feelings. Then if a mislynch occurs those things can be questioned. Voting for the sake of voting gives us nothing.

I do have suspicions o tfrench based on the second L-1 vote and the way he did it. It rubbed me the wrong way. The only problem is that he has flaked and there is no replacement so gaining any additomal information is not going to happen.

CIrd do I understand you correctly when you talked about not lynching someone with few posts because it doesn't help the town and would you put tfrench in this category?

Also IKD is suspicious to me. The talk about the teory and arguing over is a distraction to thee town and not discussing theory was brought up in my first game with him so it seemed odd. I also didn't lke how he dropped his vote on tfrench just because I said that his vote did not line up with his theory on third vote is scum.

I'm sorry for any misspellings and if any of this is confusing doing it from my iPhone.

[Manzcar]

I love free wi-fi it allows me to do this:

dramonic said

Also, I fail to see how you can even fathom we won't get information from lynching someone. Any lynch gives information, rather right or wrong.

I didn't say a lynch doesn't give us information. I said voting for the sake of voting gives you nothing. You gain information from all lynches and bandwagons. If everyone just votes "XYZperson" just because we are close to the deadline we don't have as much information as if we have people voting for reasons based on evidence, hunches, or logic.

As far as the deadline rule as I read it the person at the deadline with the highest number of votes at 3 or more would be lynched. If there are multiple people with 3 or more votes the person with the highest number of votes would be lynched.

[Manzcar]

Princess said

I Was just wondering if lailai and tfrench are being replaced any time soon? this game seems a little quiet and slow which could be bad for us so close to deadline.

I don't believe that a tfrench replacement will be able to get up to date be the deadline, but I think that lailai's replacement will be up to date when the deadline arrives. -smiles-



Zwets said

GAH! Unvote; Vote: IKD Let's get this over with plz.

I'm in a hurry to lynch someone before day 1 ends on us.

This is the problem for voting for votings sake and fearing the deadline. So Zwets do you feel that IKD is a better lynch for the town than dram?

Princess said

@havingfitz & Manzcar as you are the only ones apart from me not voting, if you had to vote for someone right now, who would you choose and why?

My two suspects are still tfrench and IKD. My problem is I don't feel that there is a wealth of evidence for either being scum. Dram and Zwets actions towards the end of this day have definitely caught my eye. But I am leaning towards IKD for the discusion / arguing extensively over theory, lack of scum hunting due to the conflict with Adel, the unvote of his vote on tfrench when pressed that his vote didn't match his statement that the third vote is usually scum. so if I had to vote someone it would be IKD. I agree that IKD should have the chance to defend himself. Haste is not good for the town.

[Manzcar]

Zwets technically your vote on IKD has ensured a lynch come deadline.

Mod for clarification if the deadline were to come IKD would be lynched correct

Yes.

I'll be on the road again today and visiting my brother before going back home, but I'll have my iphone so I'll keep up.

[Manzcar]

Okay that whole thing just doesn't feel right to me. I'm not saying IKD should be lynched over dram but that whole flow from IKD to dram just isn't sitting right something very odd. The votes take dram to L-1 securing his lynch for day one.

Zwets again you change your vote to get a lynch. Are you happier with a dram lynch than you would have been with an IKD lynch?

Princess what do you make of this change from IKD to dram? dram same question! Hfitz same question!

[Manzcar]

Zwets how does IKD being alive constitute a good reason for his lynch?

[Manzcar]

Zwets, from what I can read in your ISO post 6 you stated that IKD was scummy for:
1. insisting teaching points were lucid and helpful
2. he was acting defensively
3. He was acting sarcastically.

Are these the only three reasons you find IKD scummy?


CP (crazypianist1116 hope you are okay with the abbreviation but it is a lot easier to type out), now that dram has flipped town who are you suspects and why?


IKD it looks like you were saved at the last moment. What are your feelings on the swing to dram at the end of day one now that he has flipped town?

[Manzcar]

Zwets do you plan on explaining your case for IKD and Princess being scum buddies?

[Manzcar]

Zwets Cases

Case on dram
ISO post 1
Votes dram for:
1. buddying IKD and other newbies
2. having posts with no real content.

ISO post 2
States that dram is “dodging” Zwets points and then calls for more votes on dram.

I don’t see much else in the way of a case. Am I wrong Zwets?


Case on IKD:
ISO post 1
State that IKD is:
1. Way too wordy
2. writing is imbecilic
3. first post doesn’t make any sense

ISO post 3
States that he doesn’t find IKD scummy just arrogant.

ISO post 6
states that he now finds IKD scummy for:
1. insisting teaching helpful and lucid
2. acting defensive
3. being sarcastic

ISO post 29
States that IKD is trying WAY too hard to appear as pro-town as he can to everyone else to be town.

His teaching parts and arguments about them were a distraction to town and could be a valid point to IKD being scum, but I am not sure I agree with him acting defensive and being sarcastic as being a tell. You were actively attacking him and his ideas. How is IKD trying to act pro-town?

Case on Princess
ISO post 28
States purple princess and ikd are obvious scum buddies

This is simply OMGUS because she voted you. What other links do you find between them?

Zwet either doesn’t care about this game or finding the scum. Or he is scum. For this reason I will

FoS Zwet

Zwet, you seem to want to get this game over as quickly as possible. Your participation is light and short. You don't answer many of the questions directed to you. I know it is a newbie game and you had to come in and take over for someone else but if you are town than you are not helping us at all. I need you to share your information on why you think IKD is scum and why you think Princess is his scum buddy.

[Manzcar]

I have had personal issues the past couple of days and have been unable to post but I should be able to be back tomorrow and there after.

Real quickly though, Zwets you are saying that you have been giving off scummy vibes on purpose to catch scum. The only problem is that this can be viewed as WIFOM. Because a caught Zwets scum would say anything not to be lynched including that he was doing it on purpose to catch scum. I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility but it is hard for me to understand why you would want to do this at all.

To everyone seeing that Zwets is at L-1 we have lots of time before anyone needs to be lynched.

I will try to do more digging and post something tomorrow night.

[Manzcar]

The good news is that it's not WIFOM. Read any game in which I'm playing and you'll see my playstyle as town is exactly the same as my playstyle right now. What I'm saying is that I purposely didn't inform you people that my playstyle is what it is to get scum to slip.

So is your playstyle than totally different when you play scum?

[Manzcar]

Zwets seeing as how your playste wouldn't change it is wifom. If you act this way whether you are scum or town means you could be scum or town. I haven't found your style to be helpful at all.

Fitz if I'm not mistaken it is after 8pm in the UK now. What are your thoughts on today and who are your suspects?

[Manzcar]

Fitz I think princess just wants to hear your opinions more. I also was glad to see you post with some insight it helps understand where everyone iscoming from.

Zwets I don't really see princess defending ikd. It looks more like she is attacking you. If you have a specific post that shows this defending can you point it out?

Princess what questions has zwets not answered?

Cird haven't heard from you lately what do you make of zwets arguments about a princess ikd scum team?

[Manzcar]

I've given my opinions and ideas especially on Zwets, but I will give a quick feel on Zwets. I have a hard time with Zwet. I have stated that before. I don't like the way he is playing and he is my main suspect thus why my FoS is on him. He has continued to throw out accusations with out real backing. Stating that his whole playstyle is how he plays as town but when asked states that his playstyle as scum isn't really different which shouts WIFOM, as I pointed out, but he states it isn't. His accusations that IKD and Princess are scum buddies to me doesn't hold for me. Princess to me hasn't defended IKD but has been attacking Zwet and using his playstyle against IKD as reasoning. In fact Princess has stated that she thinks IKD could very well be scum. He also continues to not answer questions and even when Princess puts them up he ignores them and then asks for someone to post the questions. We still have some time to the day so we shouldn't be in any hurry.

Fitz's post to me was very good to see. He hasn't been very vocal and some of his points are interesting. I found it interesting that he suspected Zwets but has decided that his eratic play is too much to be scum because scum wouldn't do that. It is pure WIFOM almost like the "too townie" stuff. So I am not sure why he is so willing to let Zwets off the hook for the exact reason why I have a problem with Zwets. But I do like his thoughts about CP because they line up with mine. I am not going to forget French's actions just because CP has replaced into the game. His current play is nothing that screams scum but I have been keeping my eyes on him. I definitely want to see more from Fitz to get a better read on where his motives are directed. Unlike Zwets I am not willing to dismiss any back and forth discussion as town.

[Manzcar]

I do feel like we are going around in circles with Zwets. I still feel his play has been scummy, but also agree with Princess that we need to be looking at more than just Zwets at this time.

I actually played in game 802 with IKD and had a gut feeling that he was scum in that game but couldn’t convince people that he was scum. But I don’t see how IKD and Zwets could be connected as scum buddies. They are attacking each other way too hard. Though this is more WIFOM than anything else I just don’t see it.

I do see Zwets having a connection with Fitz. Zwets ignored the interaction between Fitz and CP and made a point of calling it two townies arguing. Fitz has also made it a point to state that Zwets doesn’t seem scummy to him because of his playstyle, because scum wouldn’t want to play that way because it would call attention to them. In fact Fitz is the only one who doesn’t believe that Zwets is scummy.

[Manzcar]

HF wrote:

@IKD...what do you mean HF vs Cird?

IKD responded:

You two seem to have been going at it for a while. I was just saying that I am going to take some time to look at your discussion. I must admit that I overlooked a lot of it since zwet's been going at me for no reason.

This was very subtle the first time I didn’t even see it but IKD’s response doesn’t make any sense. When has HF and Cird been going at it for a while? Seems to me that Cird hasn’t been very active against HF at all and in fact the back and forth has been between HF and CP not Cird. And now that I read back on IKD he doesn’t seem to be doing much scum hunting. He seems to be only attacking those that attack him. It is starting to feel like a defense mechanism to me.

FoS IKD

IKD can you show me where Cird and HF have been going at each other?

I am still not convinced that Zwet is not scum. His actions have not been pro town in my opinion. I thought that IKD and Zwet could not be a scum team because they were going after each other, but it could be a distancing technique because both have been under the microscope.

Princess so you now feel that Zwets isn’t scum because he isn’t defending himself. I think he is defending himself quite a bit. In football we sometimes said that a good defense was a great offense. I believe his attacks on you and IKD are a way to defend himself by averting attention to others rather than himself.

because I do feel that his actions have been his defense when he failed to get other to jump on the IKD bandwagon I will

Vote Zwets

[Manzcar]

Princess we still had a couple of days of discussion left. Why did you hammer?

[Manzcar]

Well I'm surprised. What I see here is very interesting. If both Ray and Princess were town then it would only stand to reason that the two scum would jump on her vote to complete the lynch and secure the victory. What this says to me is that one of the two has got to be scum.

Cird and CP do you get the same feeling?

[Manzcar]

So you don't find it dangerous to just throw out a vote like that?

[Manzcar]

VOTE RAYFROST

[Manzcar]

Well I didn't expect that at all really. I was away all day yesterday and my jaw dropped when I say the vote.

[Manzcar]

I was so mad when IKD opted to drop out I wanted to get my revenge for the last game I was in with him but I guess I sort of did get it.

Here is to hoping he checks in

[Manzcar]

It was an exercise on confirmation bias. Even havingfitz had it with CP, though he was right, it was still not based on much.

Princess was sure that IKD/RAYFROST was scum that she put it out there.

I saw it in my first game as well.

Zwets had it as well. It was nerve racking when I replaced in and my partner was awol. I thought I was going to have to bus him at the begining, but CP stepped in and did a great job of reversing the tide.

[Manzcar]

That last post was hoping that CP was on at the time. He wasn't so I had to wait. I was sure that Electric Badger was cop, but once he turned town I was sure there were no power roles because no one was acting like they had a role.

What was really funny when I asked to be in the game I thought that I would be pancakes who I was sure was town so I read the thread and came up with a lot of questions for everyone because that is how I scum hunt. Then when I got my PM and I was not in for pancakes and I was scum I used those same questions because I thought hey they were written with a mind set of a townie, but then I got busted for asking questions and I thought I was going to lose it. But the argument between IKD and Zwets took over and the suspicion of dram helped so I was able to go back under for a while.

I really played just like I would have as town. I only helped push when I thought it was available.

It was fun but I really don't like playing as scum.

[Manzcar]

Would like to get zwets and badgers view on the game as well

[Manzcar]

Well by night two I was sure there were no power roles but if there were any it would have to have been you Cirdua. So you were the logical person to block. I actually wanted to kill you but Crazy wanted to get rid of Fitz.

[Manzcar]

You should. You scared me.