Newbie 832 - Omod's Return - Game over!

[VP Baltar]

Hey, everyone. I'm your IC here. Like the mod said, if you have any questions, feel free to ask me and I will do my best to help.

[VP Baltar]

Working on avatar as we speak.

Good man.

It's my first time playing this Looking forward to it.

How did you discover mafia? Why do you want to play?

[VP Baltar]

what's your cat's name dakarian?

[VP Baltar]

How did your night talk session go porkchop?

[VP Baltar]

/confirm (even though I would think it was assumed)

[VP Baltar]

Guys? Making jokes about being evil does

not

make my life any easier.

I'm confused at what this means.

Also,

Vote Porkchopexpress

I'm sure Oman won't mind if we just jump right in here.

[VP Baltar]

Sounds good. I had planned to vote Radical Pi for "transcending irrationality," but now that we appear to be leaving the Random Voting stage before the game actually starts...

What makes you think we're out of the RVS or that my porkchop vote is because I seriously think he is scum?

You seem to be aggressive to Porkchop for no apparent reason, first declaring him scum and then voting for him. Can you explain your actions?

Same question as above, what makes you certain I'm serious?

[VP Baltar]

What makes you think we're out of the RVS or that my porkchop vote is because I seriously think he is scum?

We're seriously discussing our motives for voting. I'd say we're out of the RVS.

I did not say I thought you were scum. I said that I thought accusing him of being scum and them voting him was a bit antagonistic.

If it's not RVS, I would assume you think there is a higher than average likelihood that I would be scum. However, your reasoning seems to be that I'm being rough and tumble. Explain.

[VP Baltar]

Also why all the questions.

Even though you said you don't need an answer, I'll go ahead with this one as an IC. My personal opinion on the RVS (random voting stage) is that it is pretty useless for town to stay in any longer than necessary. Many games begin with "random votes", which in my opinion don't really do anything. Rather than start like that, I ask questions because it directly engages people and gets them talking instead of twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to say something scummy. It may begin with pointless banter at first, but soon you find (as in this game) people begin making accusations quickly and the game is rolling.

Outside of a newbie game, you'll find people might ask more joking kind of questions like "who are your scumbuddies" or like I did with porkchop "how did your night talk session go".

To me, "I think X is scum," means "I'm pretty sure X is scum, I just need more proof," rather than "I think there is a higher than average likelihood that X is scum."

I don't see much of a difference in these statements really. The heart of my question is this: do you think I'm likely to be scum or not based on my porkchop vote?

Not in itself. Aggression can be very beneficial. On the other hand, calling someone scum without giving reasons is not.

You may not consider it beneficial, but what is it hurting the town? Do you think a serious wagon was going to form on porkchop from my "reasonless" vote?

Your explanation without questioning makes me think you've got something to hide.

While I think his flopping about with is vote is a bit odd, I don't understand what you're saying here. Please clarify for me.

[VP Baltar]

Daniel, you're not making much sense. Please give me a numbered list why you think dark is actually scum and should be lynched.

Also, the RVS is considered over once serious accusations are made. I think that has happened by now, so yes, the RVS is over before Day 2.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, this is a fast paced newbie game. Keep up the good participation guys.

And seeker is definitely correct, don't write anyone off because they have more experience than you. ANYONE could be scum. [/IC]

Also, your good pace has put me slightly behind. I should be able to read up in this game and post this evening sometime.

[VP Baltar]

In-depth catching up:

For those of you wondering, VP is using the "last to confirm" tell as the springboard for his random voting. This is somewhat undercut by the fact that I was not the last to confirm. Technically, I wasn't even second last.

Smart guy. Ftr, I think it's a horrible tell that can't be backed by factual data, but I figured, 'what the heck, it'll get people talking'.

Actually, dakarian, the "I would be very happy to see you dead" seems a bit scummy to me, but I'm guessing you're just reaction hunting so I won't do anything, but it might be worth noting for later.

For future reference, pointing out that someone is reaction hunting sort of takes out all of the weight of that person reaction hunting.

Starting a 2 man bandwagon is rather scummy.

Why? Bandwagons put pressure on people and if they are scum, would make them more likely to make slips. Unless you are saying any bandwagon on you is scummy. Are you?

Do you believe that a 2 man bandwagon (a typical scumtell)

I don't know who told you this or if this is true on a different site, but that is in no way a scumtell.

What is a WIFOM? I really don't know =x)

The wiki is a good source if you don't understand a term. Here is the entry on WIFOM.

By that statement, it sounds like you would be content to have me killed off this quickly, enough to start a bandwagon based purely on my avatar. Is that right?

Bandwagons generate information and discussion. For instance, this bandwagon has shown how sensitive you are to having just two votes on you and how you want to somehow make that mean that you're about to get lynched quickly (which you are not as far as I can tell).

------

Argh, have to head off. I'll get the rest of this page in a bit hopefully.

[VP Baltar]

My agreement with Daniel was only in that dakarian kept referring to himself slightly in random comments as scum, which in most games I've played has been a scumtell.

Care to quote some of these specifically.

I'd like to see more of what VP had in mind, I liked where he was going at this point in time...

You're referring to what, exactly?

So I can focus more on Shade and AG and because that question was mostly to get the discussion going, which happened on its own. If I were to turn back to fakegin, I would use a less silly, more on-topic question like

"What do you feel about the whole situation, especially since you havn't posted at all in a while"

I thought you removed your vote because someone called you out for reaction fishing, which is a reasonable explanation. The above makes no sense to me. You are saying that if you had questioned fakegin it would have somehow weakened your questioning of shade and AG?

Bandwagons have a nasty habit of finding the Hammer too early in the Random phase.

No, they don't. What game have you seen where someone was "accidentally" lynched in the RVS. links necessary.

Had Shade got those tags correct, it wouldn't take much to push me over, unless someone were to step in and stop the bandwagon.

So? You really think scum is just going to step in quickly and drop their two votes on you and expect to get away the next day? They would almost be guaranteed to get lynched the next day for quicklynching. It'd be a horrible play for the scum to make.

I just didn't want the quick lynch, and L-2 that early really would've been a quick lynch.

Yes, you've said about 100 times. Frankly, it seems to me like you are working way to hard to earn townie points by your alleged cautiousness.

Unvote, Vote: darkarian

For realz.

Fakegin - Post more please.

Agreed.

[VP Baltar]

dakarian kept referring to himself slightly in random comments as scum

quote where dakarian was doing this.

Once I find one or two people to really focus on I rather would aim strait at them than continue to poke everywhere.

I fail to see how one question at fakegin is 'poking everyone'. Also, this is very early in the game, so how can you be certain that the one or two persons you've chosen to focus up are going to be scum? Wouldn't it be more effective to prod around a bit early on to see who you find scummiest before narrowing your sights?

re: you example of quick lynch. That game was over 2 years ago AND only had 7 players in it. I don't take it to be particularly relevant to this game or current site meta (

meta

-current trends of mafiascum.net or a particular player that can be used to speculate on expected actions). Also, it would be quite easy to provide countless examples of much more current games that refute your quicklynch and "scum in third position" scumtells.

I can't speak to your experience on other forums, but the points you are arguing just aren't true here.

[VP Baltar]

At this point are you arguing that my play style is so poor quality that I'm scum, or that I'm somehow inconsistant in my actions and, thus, scum?

No, I'm not talking about your quality of play or something like that. And I said that I couldn't speak to your previous experience on another site, so I'm willing to believe you in that regard. On the other hand, you clearly went out of your way to find a game on this site (and I'm curious how long it took you to find it or if you had read it before) that you believe backs your argument, when in reality it is largely irrelevant.

What my main issue with you is that I feel you are pushing bad arguments and trying to pass it off as legitimate scum hunting. Whether that comes from you still learning the ropes here or pushing bad cases as scum is open to interpretation. Right now, I believe that latter.

[VP Baltar]

AGar, what do you think the main points against dakarian are?

[VP Baltar]

Also, you clearly weren't reading very carefully if you thought Dakarian had three more votes than he did. Apparently, that's a scum tell, as scum don't have to read as carefully as they already know everything. Explanation?

This isn't always true. Scum may be more inclined to skim at times, but it is different for every player. The key thing to look at is motivation. Ask yourself if it is more likely for scum or town to make a statement like that.

In Radical Pi's case, I need to look back at the quotes in question again. I wasn't really sure where those things were said and it seemed kind of silly to me. Once I do my rereading of it, I'll better be able to form a conclusion.

[VP Baltar]

think VP that my second game here in MafiaScum was an example of an random lynch(The victim this case was lynched by page 3), I really dont remember the game, I think it was newbie 739. The second day a goon was catched by mere luck, he was the one that dropped the hammer.

That proves my point though. Any scum that would quickly hammer on day 1 is almost guaranteed to be lynched day 2. I'm happy to make that trade if the scum wants to play badly.

[VP Baltar]

And if it was some townie simply new to the game to supply the hammer? This is a newbie game after all and not everyone has had prior experience in mafia before coming here. Then you'd not only have a useless day 1, but would then kill off a newbie townie day 2.

Well, most people have common sense. Furthermore, it's not simply a matter of saying, "He was the hammer, he must be scum!" You have to look at a person's reasons for joining a wagon. If they look like bad or faked reasons, they are likely scum.

If the focus is meant to stay on me, keep it towards whether I'm deliberately manipulating the town into bad decisions or not.

That is what i have been doing this whole time. It has nothing to do with me thinking your play is "good" or "bad". I think there could be considerable scum motivation for some of the things you have said.

I have a feeling you've thought out my idea of being scum very well. I imagine then that, if I am mafia, you could plan out just what I was trying to do to win this game. Mind giving a runthrough of "How Dakarian would kill the town if he had his way" for me?

No, I haven't thought about it like that at all. I don't think it's useful to try and predict what scum is going to do. All a player can do is read what has been written already and try to figure out who is scummy and who is not.

I agree that we need more players to be commenting. I don't have reads on most of the players in this game so far. Porkchop definitely needs to post when he gets the chance.

@ Seeker

You seem convinced that I'm scum (the "Dakarian's Scumbuddy" comment, making me being scum a forgone conclusion) yet you vote for Shade, placing the second vote on him. May I ask why you're aiming at the 'maybe scum' instead of the 'obvscum' in your eyes?

This is a very good question. Explain.

Mind throwing some quotes where I referred to MYSELF as scum in random comments? I'm aware of me referring to Litia as well as the joke about me 'losing my soul', but nothing specific that would bring that out. A link or a quote will do nicely. Or am I being too nitpicky on the words?

I agree with this as well. Don't refer to daniel's post. I want you to quote for yourself these allegedly joking comments. In your next post, preferably.

[VP Baltar]

Is this rolefishing, and is it bad? Scummy?

Could be. I definitely noted it, and it is slightly scummy. Definitely bad.

I'll bite on some Shade pressure right now.

Unvote, Vote: Shadebreeze

[VP Baltar]

Things generally slow down on the weekend here. However, if he continues to lurk it could simply mean that he is scum.

[VP Baltar]

Porkchop's post gives me all kinds of warm and fuzzy feelings, and not just because he agrees with me. The point about the WIFOM against dakarian is very true. The reason he said it is WIFOM dakarian is because you were asking me to make a WIFOM argument about what you would do as potential scum. So, how can you call one player scummy for using WIFOM and then ask me to come up with an answer based on that? Could have been an attempt to frame me had I answered it. I don't understand the town motivation for such a question.

Seeker is definitely buddying dakarian hardcore. I say we lynch these scumbags and win this game straight out.

Seeker, what exactly has Radical Pi done that makes you think he is "likely town"?

[VP Baltar]

Call me dense, but I'm still not seeing this. Can you break this down?

He basically said, 'if I was scum, what would I do to win this game'. The only answer I can give to that is pure speculation. Then he's free to do one of a couple things which are scummy:

1) Take the information I give and avoid doing those things to dodge suspicion.
2) Use more WIFOM to say he would never do those things
3) Attack me for making a WIFOM argument about what he would potentially do as scum

Even answer a question about that question is ridiculous. What do you think was the town reason for asking his question?

Nothing specific. It's just that, compared to everyone else, he seems to be the most level headed, no scumtells as far as I can tell. Basically just that he's far less likely to be scum than everyone else.

That is horribly vague and an awful reason to call anyone town.

[VP Baltar]

dakarian, what are your feelings on Seeker?

Same question to Radical Pi.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: do you think Seeker is likely to be scum?

[VP Baltar]

fakegin, what do you think of Seeker?

Mod, please prod Shadebreeze if you haven't already done so. Thanks

[VP Baltar]

That's a lot of reading dakarian, but there is a certain honesty about it and I definitely noticed Seeker hanging out in the dark corners a bit (which is why I am asking peoples' opinions of him).

Unvote, Vote: Seeker

[VP Baltar]

So, why not? This is mainly to VP.

I was the one questioning you. I knew exactly the point I was making, or do you think I was just asking for the fun of it?

[VP Baltar]

The issue was more serious, and Shade looked scummy.

what scummy behavior had Shade done? I was under the impression that the votes were only to pressure him to post.

Also, why did you unvote him here if you thought he was scummy? He didn't do anything that I could see that would be reason for an unvote. I mean, if it was for Radical Pi's "vote gambit" and you were worried about Shade being at L-1, did you really find him scummy?

[VP Baltar]

Oops, must've remembered that wrong. I suppose it was a pressure vote.

I discuss Shade's scumminess here.

The contradictory arguments continue to flow from Seeker. I also don't like how much apologizing and recanting his statements he is having to do now.

Let's lynch this scum and move on to hunting #2 tomorrow. More votes please.

[VP Baltar]

If people are intent on lynching Seeker, I suggest he claims now. Personally, I am fine with it. I'll respond to Ray's post when I get a bit more time.

btw, Ray, are you a Zazie alt?

[VP Baltar]

Seriously though, what makes you think I'm a zazie alt?

Just your posting style reminded me of his, but if you're in a game together you obviously can't be.

[VP Baltar]

heh, I encourage you to post however you like. It doesn't bother me in the least. I was mostly just joking anyhow.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm pretty much alright with your assessment Ray except for a few things:

1) danielsound hasn't been so much scummy to me (though he's had moments), but rather I find him very confusing. Definitely someone who has been a bit harder for me to read and I need to look into much closer later.

2) I can't really call fakegin scummy because he hasn't done anything. I agree that not putting up content so you are readable is annoying, but it doesn't always come from scum. He needs to post soon or be replaced if he can't keep up.

3) Right now I'm reading porkchop more as town than anything. I think he has made up for his early lurking with some very good points. His scumhunting seems honest. However, he also seems very intelligent, so he could just be really good scum. I don't trust him 100% yet, but I'd say he's the highest in my potential town category.

4) dakarian is hardly town in my eyes. He has made some very scummy comments here and there, and the appeals to emotion don't sit that well with me. He has also exaggerated the pressure on him at times, which is a scum mentality. It's hard to tell if his willingness to be lynched is coming from honest town or a scum trying to bluff people out of his lynch.


re: Shade- my vote was only on there for pressure and I can't say I remember him doing anything that stuck out to me as exceptionally scummy. You are pretty much starting from a clean slate in my book.

[VP Baltar]

My issue with daniel is... he continued to do what seemed to be the RVS long after it was done.

Yeah, true. I can't really disagree with you there, and it is kind of scummy/noobish.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, what kind of advice do you have for getting a discussion back up and going? From what I can tell, it's stalled, which isn't helpful for the town.

well, I would say we have some chronic offenders who aren't posting as much or contributing as significantly. My best advice for getting players involved is to ask them direct questions or try to get a wagon going on them if you really really want them to post. Other than that, all you can do is wait for the questions you asked to be answered. The other solution is we lynch Seeker and start afresh tomorrow.

That being said, I wouldn't say this game is particularly stalled so much hit a fairly mild slow patch. It's still early, so I'm not too worried about the inactivity at this moment.

[VP Baltar]

/in before thread lock

[VP Baltar]

Vote RayFrost

[VP Baltar]

Anyone who goes, "oh shi-, our doc is dead!" is scum trying to look town. Especially in a newbie game.

[VP Baltar]

Do you find that tell to be sufficient evidence to lynch me all on its lonesome, or do you have other suspicions/evidence regarding my play?

It's enough for me to be voting you right now while I look over some things.

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and since I didn't mention it before, Pi's hammer was scumalicious.

I'd like to hear who his top three suspects are and why since he pretty much managed to avoid taking any serious stances yesterday.

Ray, what's your feelings on Radical Pi?

[VP Baltar]

You can read me in iso to see when and what I found suspicious about him both before and after I voted. I'm not going to repeat myself.

[VP Baltar]

VP:

what were you looking into earlier? what was your result from said looking?

Honestly, I haven't had time to look yet. I had to work quite a lot yesterday and cross replaced into a new game (so I had to do a reread last night). I'm hoping today will be slower at work and I'll have a chance to get some thoughts down here. Also, I think it is a good idea for the rest of the town to continue discussing their thoughts and not simply be playing "follow the IC".

Think for yourself, question authority.

[VP Baltar]

I'm working on my reread right now and will hopefully have my thoughts up by this afternoon or this evening.

Right now, I'd like Radical Pi to rank the players in this game from most scummy to least scummy. Also, if you had to lynch one person at this very moment, who would it be?

[VP Baltar]

@VP I'd like to wait until after I hear something from Ray and fakegin before I rate the scummiest people

Well that is is a nice stall tactic and all, but please do it in your next post or be prepared to die. You've spent a lot of this game not taking stances, and it's time for you to let us know where you stand. Post your list and if the answers you are waiting for change the order, you can say so afterward and explain why.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so, I'm going to start by putting out some thoughts on things I wanted to look at from yesterday and then I'll address things from the last couple of pages.

---

From yesterday:

First I wanted to look at who Porkchop was suspicious of. This, of course, does not mean that those are the persons who killed him since he was playing a fairly pro-town game and probably would have been on any scum's short list of targets, but there are still some things worth noting. I didn't notice any strong breadcrumbs from him, so I'm inclined to believe that scum did not figure out he was the doc and that is why they killed him.

Porkchop did go after dakarian fairly aggressively in the early part of the game, and if I was going to pick any single person who had a reason to get him off their back, it would be him. Post 132 was probably one of the better cases made against dakarian imo.

One other thing that really stuck out to me in rereading Porkchop was this post later in the day:

Since you've played on another forum, I assume you've seen some players make emotional appeals before. Did it work out well for them? I'd expect not. The first half of your post here is entirely irrelevant, and more than a little wrong. This day is nowhere near over yet, you are far from the only suspect, there is discussion that does not relate to lynching you. The 2nd half of your post is at least game-relevant conjecture.

The case against Seeker is going to need a reread. But it's timing was not lost on me.

That's all in reference to dakarian again, so we can see that Porkchop wasn't exactly letting up on him. I suggest people read the full post because it mostly deals with why PE found dakarian scummy.

Unfortunately, after that PE was bogged down and didn't get to let us know the rest of his suspicions, which brings me to the other person I wanted to look at:Radical Pi

---

As people have already pointed out, Pi's hammer was quite the conversation ender, and to me that is a very serious scum move (I actually did the same thing in my first scum game here and should have been lynched for it, but talked my way out of it).

Again returning to Porkchop, we see that he said in post 197 he had a post coming very soon, but Pi was quick to cut that off with his hammer.

A couple of other things bothered me about Pi when I was looking at him in isolation.

1) He says that the reason he didn't vote much or make serious accusations yesterday was because he was "confused" by everything that was going on. Yet in iso 7 he says he's keeping a PBPA (post by post analysis) on every player. why is he confused then? In the same post he doesn't commit to a dakarian vote even though its his top suspicion.

2) He launches an attack on the lurking Shadebreeze at one point, but then much later in the day puts one of his reasons for voting Seeker as:

I have noticed that Seeker likes to go after lurkers. While there are many people who do think lurkers are usually scum, I see voting a lurker as more of a chance for scum to start a bandwagon with little evidence

I don't understand the double standard here at all.

3) Apart from "confusion", Radical Pi says that he didn't vote much yesterday because:

the main reason I didn't do much voting yesterday was because on almost all of the votes it would make someone L-1 and I didn't feel like it was enough evidence for a lynch.

This is blatant exaggeration. In actuality it's not even true because the ONE time he used this as an excuse was when he miscounted the votes at that time on Dakarian. Then again, maybe he didn't miscount and simply didn't want ot vote for his scum partner. Who knows.

Alright, I'll address the other pages of stuff in my next post since this one is long already.

[VP Baltar]

Starting from page 9 after I voted Ray:

Int'resting.

Vote: RayFrost

You bitch about random voting, then you randomly vote danielsound to "get your mind in gear"?

Which post did he "bitch about random voting"?

I never let them [suspicions of dakarian] go completely. I said they were fair answers, but my suspicions were re-invigorated later on.

What specifically drew your attention to him again?

@Radical Pi-I would like you to explain to me briefly why Shadebreeze was scummy to you.

@VP, care to explain why my hammer was scummy?

Apart from what I said above, I didn't feel like your reasons for voting him were very well thought out or good in general. It read mostly like "well, this wagon is popular and will end the day. hammer time!"

why was everyone saying /in during twilight?

It was a joke because the mod had not locked the thread at the end of the day. However, I shouldn't have started it since it is against the rules. Don't follow my example.

Ager, are you defending yourself over something done a day ago? Is that really necessary?

Ray had said that he wanted everyone to respond to his analysis, why is that scummy to you? Also, what benefit does the town gain by players not responding to suspicions against them?

This game is way harder than I thought =x on the "real life version",

yeah, it can be a very intense game and is more challenging than the real life version, but the rewards when you win or are right about something are quite exciting. I appreciate you changing your playstyle to fit forum mafia better.

It seems like a scum trying to remain unsuspected by accepting any beliefs that are thrown out there, with caution (If I'm not mistaken, He just voted once, on the first stage.). But I'm acting almost like him, posting even less, So I shouldn't call it a scum behavior maybe a noob behavior

I agree with everything here except the noob behaviour part. It's scummy to me.

Overall, I actually like daniel's post, makes me feel better about him.

VP: note that you ARE the authority, technically

Yeah, that was my point. Just because you are playing in a game with a more experienced player does not mean you should trust them. I could just as easily be scum as anyone else, that is why I said you were best to look for things yourself. I know you weren't necessarily relying on me, but you kept asking what I was looking at and I am just saying you will get that post when you get it. In the meantime, continue scumhunting on your own suspicions.

Why did you not give an analysis of Agar? What do you think of him?

I agree with this question toward daniel. That struck me as odd as well.

It seems that Daniel's only points against seeker he then says he himself have done, so he passes it off as a null tell because they are both newbs

You mean Radical Pi, right?

Also a bit ironic that he tried to trick scum into hammer voting then supplied an actual hammer later on.

So what?

I am wondering why he sounds jumpy to me.

You are saying that daniel sounds jumpy to you? How so? What quotes make you feel that way?

How is my doc comment any less suspicious than you doing that?

They are equal, imo. Both show a "sad about the doc NK" mentality, no matter how you look at it.

This is a very fair question, especially since dak was very quick to jump in after my vote and say that is was indeed a scumtell.

Reveal time: my vote on Ray was only semi-serious. I was mostly looking for reactions and wanted to see if he would flip out over it. He didn't, but dak quickly voting for the same reason and now doing the same thing looks really scummy to me.

So how about this. We BOTH threw a scumtell. Now we BOTH look bad and need to be questioned.

but why would you do it if you think it comes from scum? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

For most of D1 I was actually really confused. I'm used to very different play so this took a bit of getting used to. Today things are starting to make more sense to me, but I'll get to that later

What makes today any less confusing than yesterday?

I was feeling really pressured to vote from dakarian and RayFrost, and my gut told me that they would go after me if I didn't do the vote

I don't like this reasoning at all.

Also, A GOOD IC Mafia will be just as 'nice' as a townie IC. ICs doing their 'ICly' thing have to seperate their game from their instruction. They can't just go and hide info and ignore questions (or give wrong answers) just because it suits their game.

I doubt VP is a bad IC so consider his helpfulness as purely 'neutral'. You'll need to judge him by his 'game face' to see his true story.

This is true. There is a difference between IC Vp and Player Vp.

---

Okay, that is pretty well caught up. I may have one or two more things I need to check out, but that's a start for now.

[VP Baltar]

Just so people see this:

NOBODY HAMMER PI UNTIL WE HAVE MORE TIME TO DISCUSS

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Actually I see he's at L-2 and not L-1, but the principle still applies. fakegin and AGar definitely need to get in here.

[VP Baltar]

@Rad Pi, don't forget the rest of my post when you have time.

@Ray, why are you so concerned about the connection RP is making between you and dak?

Also, I don't think fakegin is really asking for that much WIFOM as much as he is your opinion. As an IC, I'll let you know that it's not some great sin to give an opinion on what could have happened over night. While those opinions cannot be taken as facts, they can sometimes be useful in hashing out ideas of what

could

have happened. It's a thin line, but not every piece of WIFOM is inherently a bad thing (even though some people like to argue that it is).

I wrote up some more things earlier, but I have to get to my other computer before I can post that. Should be this evening.

[VP Baltar]

Why do you think PorkchopExpress was eliminated, do you think that mafia had any idea that he was the doc?

First I wanted to look at who Porkchop was suspicious of. This, of course, does not mean that those are the persons who killed him since he was playing a fairly pro-town game and probably would have been on any scum's short list of targets, but there are still some things worth noting. I didn't notice any strong breadcrumbs from him, so I'm inclined to believe that scum did not figure out he was the doc and that is why they killed him.

So, no, I don't think the scum figured out he was the doc, but rather just saw him as a strong protown player who could potentially be a threat.

I read in the 226 that Pi hammer was scummalicious but in the 178 you said that: "If people are intent on lynching Seeker, I suggest he claims now. Personally, I am fine with it.", are you saying that you were fine with the hammer in that moment or i am misinterpreting things here?

In that post I was saying that I was fine with his lynch for Day 1. I still think he was a good choice, even though I was incorrect about his alignment. That being said, Radical Pi coming in with the hammer when there was much more to be said yet doesnt' sit well with me. Had he waited until the rest of the town had spoken thier minds for the day, I wouldn't have minded him hammering at all.

fakegin, how about in your next post you tell us who you think is the most likely to be scum and why.

On the 'ironic hammer': What I refer to is that his 'trick L-1' on Shade was meant to look for someone willing to Hammer, suggesting that he believes it's suspicious. He then ends up being the actual hammer later on. It's not a big thing, but I keep tallies of such matters. It helps in trying to read a person, imo.

I don't think that his "trick" was saying so much that hammering was scummy as hammering early in the day is scummy. As I said above, I don't think that Radical Pi's hammer was necessarily done too early relative to the day, but it was premature in the fact that people still had a few more things today before we ended it. If that distinction makes sense.


AGar needs to post a suspicion list as well, preferably with reasons.

[VP Baltar]

In regards to fakegin, I've actually read a game with him in it (first game I ever read) where he was town and lurked, making it a null tell.

Which game was that?

I dislike calling analysis of his death a WIFOM.

Well, any speculation like that is in fact WIFOM, but as I said above, WIFOM isn't necessarily a dirty word. You just have to be careful not to take it too far and start making accusations based strictly upon it.

Ray brings up a very interesting point against AGar...how exactly did dak go from one of your main suspects yesterday to the towniest player? That's really bizarre and deserves better explanation.

@Ray, I do have a few things that pop out on AG right now but we have bigger fish to fry. Wide scans are nice and all but once we have a full target I really rather focus on that.

This is scummy. Everyone is a suspect and you shouldn't just ignore someone to focus on one other person.

Hm. I thought I had said that. Maybe it was one of the WOTs I deleted. :/ Well I do.

And what exactly leads you to this conclusion?

[VP Baltar]

It's fine ray...I can probably find it from that information.

[VP Baltar]

It's just a feeling I have. I know this comes across as WIFOM, but I don't care - I'd do the same thing in scumshoes. It's setting for a nice spike.

Well, I'm sure you had

some

kind of reasoning for saying this. You were going to put in a WOT before it was lost. Even though it's WIFOM, you'd have to have something that originally sparked that though.

As an example, I don't believe PE was killed because he was the doc. Why do I say that even though it's WIFOM? Because he didn't breadcrumb or hint at his role at all, so I have no reason to believe that the scum would have had the opportunity to figure out he was the doc.

So, what make you more inclined to believe that dak is being framed?


Also, ray, where did AGar say you were scumbuddies with dak? Wasn't that Radical Pi who made that statement?

[VP Baltar]

Rolefished a couple of times

Can you quote the posts where you think AGar was rolefishing? I don't remember seeing that.

@ Everybody else: what do you think of kitten's analysis?

I pretty much agree with everything she said...but that doens't mean much. I still think her predecessor was begging for a lynch.

@Everyone: How does everyone feel about AG's actions up to this point? I personally am ready to string him up, but some additional third part analysis would be helpful.

He's in my top three to lynch today, but I'm not ready to follow through on that just yet.

Ag's 'frame' goes like this:

Porkchop is NKed.

I'm accused of NKing Porkchop and lynched.

I don't think that is what AG was saying at all. I think he was saying Porkchop was killed to make you look bad (since you were his top suspect yesterday). He is saying that you were being framed for the kill on PE, not that you actually did it.

Apperently, this frame up was so obvious that it deserved a WOT (that didn't show up)

While I think AGar is scummy, this is pretty blatant exaggeration. He said that he had mentioned it in a wall of text he lost, not that the entire wall of text was about that.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, ok. I can definitely see both of those as attempts at rolefishing, kitten.

[VP Baltar]

@AGar

Do you really appealing to emotion is going to make anyone think you are town, or if you are town, will help you win the game?

Do you think the town as a whole wants you lynched right now?

[VP Baltar]

But if you're not scum, would it not be better to actually lynch scum today? I we mislynch today, tomorrow is lylo (lynch or lose) and that is not exactly a good thing for us. If you're not scum, I would rather you defend yourself and help us find the correct lynch today instead of rolling over and dying.

[VP Baltar]

Fakegin still needs to give that suspicion list. I don't like lurkers you know.

[VP Baltar]

I still want to hear from AGar. Other than that, I need to reread since my last post and do some rethinking.

The only person I am absolutely sure is town right now is danielsound. Everyone else still has a high probability in my mind of being scum.

Ray, what do you think of kittens' contributions to the game so far?

[VP Baltar]

Well thats because when it was RVS i was confused. Normally in the other games i played we voted at random first for wichever reason, and in this game we started with some chatting and when the votes came i was in a state of confusion.

Personally, I also would like to hear Vp opinion in this.

I'm the type of player that always likes to be voting someone. It is a good way to document who you are suspicious of and why. Making yourself readable to the rest of the town is important. Lots of new players fail to realize that this game is not just about getting scum reads, but also town reads. If you are confident someone is town, it goes a long way toward helping narrow down the pool of potential suspects.

So, yeah, you need to be voting your top suspect.

---

Did some closer rereading over the last few pages and it really seems that today's lynch choice is going to come down to AGar or Kitten for me (no pun intended). Both have made thier share of mistakes.

In Kitten's case, her scumminess is largely due to radical Pi, but I'm definitely not impressed with her scum hunting so far. She seems to be going after lurkers/easy targets without much passion. I realize it's not always easy to come up with new angles when you replace into a game, but I have pretty high expectations, especially when a player comes into a very sketchy player slot.

Meanwhile, I think AGar's day 1 play is substantially suspicious in hindsight (particularly his switch to Seeker), but right now I'm inclined to belive his explanation and frustrations come from an honest place.

So, I'm ready to

Unvote, Vote: Kitten4u

[VP Baltar]

Why is a VT claim nonsense?

[VP Baltar]

I thought you meant you had some reason to call it nonsense, which in itself is nonsense.

Anyhow, I'm good with the Kitten lynch. Most likely she will flip scum, and then if we are really lucky we'll have a cop claim tomorrow with either a guilty or two innocents to put this game in the bag.

[VP Baltar]

Well, let's make sure no one else has anything to say today before someone fires away. No need to repeat Day 1.

[VP Baltar]

Kitten is doing some misinterpretation that seems deliberate to me.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this. Care to tell us who your scumbuddy is Kitten?

In case I'm dead tomorrow, I'll reiterate that I think danielsound is town. If kitten flips scum, AGar is probably town as well (but that doesn't mean its guaranteed). I don't trust the other three enough to say who is who. Make sure you talk it out well before reaching any decisions.

[VP Baltar]

Good job town using logic after I was gone to figure out Muffin was the final scum. I was starting to get worried there when the tide was turning on danielsound, but you guys came through in the end.

I don't have a lot of time today, but I will probably try to get my opinion of what did and what didn't work in each player's game soon.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, let's do the player assessment:

AGar-I pretty much agree with you self assessment of your play. Coming out swinging is a good thing to do, especially as a VT, but you have make sure you are actually pushing a good case. You were feeling pretty scummy there for awhile, and it was obvious to see that you were frustrated with yourself. I'm glad I trusted my gut feeling that this was coming from a town perspective. I think you recovered pretty well after the pressure let up and went after Muffin well. My only advice would be to double check your cases and make sure you believe in them before you push really hard.

dakarian-pretty pro-town overall, but you could probably afford to cut down on the giant cases. I used to post like you and try to draw out every little piece of evidence to suppot my argument, but I found players tend to think you are trying too hard then or your message gets lost a bit. Stick to one or two suspects at a time and focus on the most important parts of your argument. I think you'll find this is a lot more effective for putting pressure on players and cause more of a reaction if they are scum. good game overall though.

danielsound-I agree with your self assessment too. I think you started the first day off really shaky, but recovered very strong in the next two days. There was something about your play that was really easy to read for me and, as I said before, I was pretty surprised when people started entertaining the idea of you being scum. I don't think it helped that when you were saying you were ok with being lynched. Don't do that if you are town. There are few times that a town player's lynch is going to help the town. You should have just stuck with your read of Muffin as scum and encouraged other players to vote. Overall, I think you did pretty well for your first game and hope you stick around here.

fakegin-You just need to be more assertive as scum. I felt you were townish initially because you were so timid, but not voting anyone starts to look scummy after awhile. Don't be afraid to go after people when you are scum because if you do it well you will look pro-town.

Kitten-You did what you could in your situation I suppose. I wouldn't have been trying to get my partner to bus me in that situation unless absolutely necessary. You'd be surprised what you can argue your way out of when you are persistent. You got dealt a tough hand though for sure.

Messiah-You did well as a late game replacement. Led the town well to Muffin and kept up the pressure. I don't have too many suggestions for you and hopefully I'll get another game with you in the future.

Muffin-I think you had a tough spot to replace in to as well. Lurking didn't help you though. If I had been in your player slot I would have come back when that mild shift toward daniel happened and I would have pushed hard on it. I think you did the right thing claiming blocked cop because it puts fear in people to lynch you, but you just needed to stay with it. Sometimes as scum you just have to do a lot of heavy lifting to win, and it's not fun, but if you pull through it makes the victory that much better. I think you did well for what you had to deal with.

PorkchopExpress-sorry I couldn't drawn the NK, bud. I was trying in all my VT-ness to scare the scum. I guess you are scarier than I. *bows down*

Radical Pi-Being scum is tough, huh! I find to be successful as scum you have to really be on your feet and be executing a plan. You're better off to be leading the town than reacting, and that is where I think you ran into trouble this game. You can't wait for mislynches to come along, you have to make them happen. Like I said during the game, I made the same mistake that you did with the hammer in my first game as scum. It is hard to not want to get the day over as scum, but you have to keep in mind how it looks in the long run. I think with a few more games under your belt, you could be a really good player. Keep at it.

Rayfrost- You know what you're doing and I think you played pretty well this game. I put some pressure on you and you reacted well to it (which actually made me want to keep an eye on you even more...I get suspicious like that). Overall, you made a lot of positive contributions and were a good example to the newer players. Good job and you definitely are already setting up a name for yourself at MS.

Seeker- You stumbled early and it ended up leading to your early lynch. Probably didn't help that the more experienced players were on you. Don't take it personally though, it happens to all of us at some point or another. Hope you look at you play in this game and see what you need to improve on. Remember to think your cases out thoroughly (look at both town and scum motivations for actions) and try to react calmly to pressure. Just explain yourself honestly and leave it up to the town to decide.

Shadebreeze-Be sure you keep up your activity in you games or it is hard to keep up and ends up making you look suspicious. You did ok when you were around, but you just have to keep participating so people can get a read on you.

Overall, the town had this one on lockdown after day 1, which says a lot for a group of largely inexperienced players. I would gladly play in another game with anyone on this player list. And I hope you all had a good experience. If anyone has any specific questions for me, feel free to ask. If not, I'll see you around I'm sure.

[VP Baltar]

Playing fewer games and playing them better is definitely important Ray. It's easy to get overwhelmed because there are lots of fun sounding games out there, but sometimes you just have to say no. I try not to be in more than 3 or so games at a time because I think you end up just skimming the surface if you are in more. In terms of specific aspects of your play, I'll read you in iso and try to see if anything sticks out at me.

@PE-heh, I could say the same about you though...I will say that I try and keep my town and scum play consistent with one another so it is harder to tell them apart. It usually depends on the player list though. Some people see aggressive scumhunting as scummy. But I'll get you one of these days

[VP Baltar]

Glad to hear you are ok, Oman. I think you did a great job in spite of everything. I'd play in any other game you modded any time.

(I'm coming to you today, Ray )

[VP Baltar]

Too late, I'm on the red eye right now. There's Cleveland.

[VP Baltar]

I brought my cat. He'll sniff out his namesake.

[VP Baltar]

It's a long flight.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks!

[VP Baltar]

After an iso read Ray, I'd stand by what I said before: I think you played pretty well overall.

I'd say you could have come out a bit harder when you first replaced in. I remember thinking you felt a little scummy because you were sort of just providing commentary early on instead of attacking people, but that sort of passed as the game went on. Then you started to ask more probing questions and I felt a bit better about you.

You might have been a bit too trusting of me due to experience, but I suppose that happens a lot in newbie games. I've never been scum as an IC, so I don't know if I would play the same, but I know I never felt like anyone even made a serious accusation against me this game...which is probably a bad thing if I had been scum.

After I was dead, I think you and the rest of the town played well...so i can't give you too much advice based on this game. Keep up the good work and active scum hunting and you'll only get better with time.

[VP Baltar]

but I know I never felt like anyone even made a serious accusation against me this game...which is probably a bad thing if I had been scum.

Personally, the thought crossed my mind literally once where it was like "VP could be sitting back pulling the strings, letting us all kill each other" but for the most part, you were the most pro-town read I got in the game.

Pro-town read or not, it's good to at least take a pass at people once in awhile just to see how they react. Some players are very good at hiding their scumminess until you lean on them a little bit. You don't have to be like "OMG SCUM!!!!", but just ask a few serious questions or challenge them on something they say and see how they react to it.

[VP Baltar]

but I know I never felt like anyone even made a serious accusation against me this game...which is probably a bad thing if I had been scum.

Personally, the thought crossed my mind literally once where it was like "VP could be sitting back pulling the strings, letting us all kill each other" but for the most part, you were the most pro-town read I got in the game.

Pro-town read or not, it's good to at least take a pass at people once in awhile just to see how they react. Some players are very good at hiding their scumminess until you lean on them a little bit. You don't have to be like "OMG SCUM!!!!", but just ask a few serious questions or challenge them on something they say and see how they react to it.

I disagree with most of this. This kind of reactionary thinking often gets a pro-town player lynched on the basis of "What IF he is scum, that is too big a risk, lynch lynch lynch." I agree that its good to pressure everyone, to challange everyone, but to divert attention away from actual scummy players towards protowners is not a smart move.

No, not really. I'm not saying there needs to be a major wagon shift so every player is under scrutiny, but the fact that I wasn't even seriously questioned or considered to be scum by any player is not beneficial to town. I like to believe I have a fairly consistent playstyle regardless of alignment and not considering me to potentially be scum is not the best play to make. I think a player should be able to sustain focused attacks on two or three suspects at a time before determining who the most scummy is out of those folks and lynching them. If I see a player who is largely being ignored by the town, then you can bet that I'm going to start asking him or her questions to see how they react. The inverse is probably true as well. If I see many players ganging up on someone (as happened to AGar), I'm probably less inclined to join in that fray unless I am certain that person is scum.