Newbie 827 - Store Katana (Scum Win!)

[julienvonwolfe]

Howdy people! I'm your friendly neighbourhood IC. If you have a question, I'll try to provide some sort of wisdom. I'm sure the SEs will as well.

A few things that I would suggest to get the game going:

- everyone should have some form of avatar. This actually helps a lot when it comes to telling people apart.

- a big lol at the names of people in this game. s3r9i032123 and S23181208, how do you prefer to be called? If it comes to it, I'm going to call you Sergio and S2. If people want to abbreviate my name - JVW, Julien, whatever works.

- Can we have people post how much mafia they've played before, if any? Also, is this the only game you're playing at the moment?

- Finally, some common abbreviations that come up:

WIFOM - stands for 'wine in front of me', from the scene in the Princess Bride (I think). If any explanation of some subject can be followed by 'but maybe that's what they want me to think', then that's WIFOM.

OMGUS - stands for 'oh my god, you suck!'. This is usually used to describe some form of retaliatory attack. For example, a player might vote for another. If that player then votes the other back, then that's an example of an OMGUS vote. This is considered a classic scumtell by some.

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, and Tenchi, we meet again. I've got my eye on you.

[julienvonwolfe]

Heh, I just read that game. That's fantastic.

[julienvonwolfe]

RVS time!

vote: julienvonwolfe

for laughing at my name.

Random OMGUS:

vote: S23181208

Hmmm...I'm gonna bet that Tenchi made one of the experienced players Mafia, to help them out a little bit, but only one. Since there are more Semi-E's than ICs, I'm going to bet it's one of them...
[/b]

On this site, as I understand it, not using a random means of role selection is frowned upon.

Generally, yes. The exception would be bastard mod games, but those are different to newbie games.

Players should usually treat roles as being random or the game becomes a case of WIFOMing - outguessing - the mod.

[julienvonwolfe]

Vote:s32181208

so i never have to type his damn name in again.

You didn't even type it correctly that time, lol.

i wish i got a roll other than freaking vanilla townie.

This is beyond me, honestly. I can't fathom why you would claim on page 2 during the RVS.

I'd like you to state your thought process here and answer Julien's question as to your experience, if you don't mind.

I'm tempted to vote for S3 to end this round...

Not only will your vote NOT get me lynched(5 to lynch, not three), wanting a lynch 6 hours in to day 1 is extremely anti-town, I fail to understand this either. For future reference, putting someone at l-2 for no reason is a terrible idea because the scum could easily quicklynch if none of them are currently on the wagon.(Not that I think they would here, it would be terribly obvious)

You said you've played mafia a good few times before, correct? Please tell me what experience you have that could lead you to believe such a quick lynch would be useful.

unvote

now that there's two people much more deserving of my vote.

Why do you feel that claiming vanilla townie is scummy? I don't see how you think that this makes him deserving of your vote.

I agree that Wysp is way suspicious for his admitted impatience to end the day and for no benefit to the town. Town should want the day to last for a good amount of time; there is a point at which too much discussion becomes simply too much, but we're nowhere near that yet.

I find his continued emphasis on being confused distasteful. The question in my mind is whether he's scum, or naive town. A good wagoning should help us decide.

unvote, vote: Wysp

A final point - we should lynch people who we think are scum, not those we feel might cause the scum to slip up. Wysp, how did you envisage the scum botching up, as you put it?

[julienvonwolfe]

Princess - what do you think of his statement that he didn't expect anybody to believe his claim?

Also, why does not confirming not equal lurking if the game has already started?

[julienvonwolfe]

Claiming that "I wish I was a doc/cop/scum" means that he probably isn't the cop, since if he was, no one would believe him after now.

Why not?

But regardless, this is a big no-no. Don't publicly speculate about who may be a power role until endgame, or we're just giving the scum clues about who to kill in the night.

[julienvonwolfe]

Welcome, n107

Wysp hasn't answered my vote on him directly, but this seems to be his reply to the general accusations.

I'm gonna anwer the quick-lynch question once and for all:

Point 1--Like I said, I'm from a place which goes a lot faster at our lynches. I apologize if this makes me seem suspicious. Sadly, the forums which I play on are down for upgrades (and have been so for...two, three weeks, at least?), but once they come up, I can link to the pages for proof.

Point 2--I picked the guy who isn't playing. The one who would be the least advantage to the town. If anything, people who want to lynch players who are actually participating are the supicious ones. Sadly, I don't (like I have bemoaned many times before) have any evidence for finger-pointing at this time.

Point 3--Would a Mafian be making this much noise this early in the game? I've played Mafia before, on both sides, and I know the best way for the Mafian to win is to stay low and influence opinion, not stand out and speak up. What do I look like I'm doing?

1) There's no problem with a bit of aggression. However, playing in a fast style when there's no need to is unnecessary.

2) Do you prefer to lynch lurkers, or replace them?

3) As has been pointed out, this is a WIFOM defence.

*facepalm*

Wow, I feel stupid.

Okay, I just reread the rules and noticed that this site permits null votes. Ergo...

Null Vote

Rather than killing a lurker (Townie, Mafia, or whatever) or an active member, IMO it makes more sense to just not lynch.

How do you propose to kill mafia in this game if we never lynch?


@ Purple Princess

Princess - what do you think of his statement that he didn't expect anybody to believe his claim?

Well I guess he had to say that after S23181208 bought it up, I'm not sure what he thought he would gain from saying "I am town" maybe he thought people would leave him alone as he must obvioulsy must be town.

So, in effect, you are saying that you don't believe him when he says that he didn't expect anybody to believe him. Fair enough.

Also, why does not confirming not equal lurking if the game has already started?

I could compleatly understand if he had confirmed his role that not posting anything could been seen as lurking, but as I see it he hasn't confirmed so isn't really part of this game, sure he could have a scum role but how can you tell without him confirming or even posting in this game.

But the game has started. If he did have a scum role, he could deliberately confirm late in order to try and lurk a bit and maybe stay under the radar. Is that not plausible?

Princess, I am curious - what do you think of Wysp?

@ XScorpion

@XScorpion: I'll ask my question again since you ignored it. Considering your firm "lurkers are scum" stance do you believe that both of our scum are in the three people who haven't posted yet? Why sergio instead of the other two?

I think that it wouldn't be a bad mafia tactic to lurk as long as possible...if there are other lurkers, that makes it even easier to blend in. If I was mafia, I definitely would consider posting as little as possible to divert attention, and since there are several lurkers already, it's harder to pinpoint who is actually unable to post and who isn't posting deliberately.
Sergio was picked since of the lurkers, he was the most "lurky" (hadn't even confirmed yet) to me. I'll change my vote to Sarcyn as soon as n107 offers some of his thoughts.

What do you think of the active players?

[julienvonwolfe]

NAW: Town, or foolish mafia. I'm actually thinking he might be the doctor, as the cop shouldn't claim townie if he wants people (or me at least) to believe him, the townie should not make comments like that since it could lead mafia to think he's not the doctor/cop (we want a townie to get night killed, not a power role) and mafia just threw away the ability to fake-claim a power role later. Either way, claiming so early was a huge mistake, and if NAW is mafia, then I expect him to make more mistakes later on.

You rolefish too much.

You: Too passive for me to tell at this point. Speaking of which, I think you should answer the same question as I. What do YOU think of ALL the players at this point?

I'm certainly not going to say who I think is the most town of us, as that's a good way of telling the scum who to kill tonight. The people I'm focussing on at the moment, though:

- Wysp, for wanting to end the day early, for seemingly not being focussed on lynching scum, for no voting, for being confused all the time.

- You, for speculating so much about who may be what power role and being so aggressive towards lurkers.

- Purple Princess, just a gut feeling more than anything else right now. Her defense of s3r9i032123, who looked like he was nearly lynched on page two, raises my eyebrows.

I think that asking the mod to prod and possibly replace lurkers is far better than lynching them, as lurking doesn't always equal scummy.

My vote is staying where it is. If we end up lynching townies unintentionally, I would prefer that we lynch the lurkers than the ones who have actually offered insight, since it's a lot harder to get a read on people who don't post.

What do you think about replacing lurkers?

[julienvonwolfe]

Perhaps I'm micro analyzing, but what do people think of Sarcyn's leave? Is he bored with his role of a vanilla townie, or does he feel unwilling to go through the effort of being a doc/cop/mafia? Or am I just being ridiculous and he truly has better things to do?

Eh, if he is replaced, he's out of the game and won't win or lose no matter what the outcome is. No worries about that.

@PurplePrincess: You don't find anything that Wysp has done suspicious?

Not really, I didn't really like the whole no lynch thing, but that is such a newbie thing to do, almost every newbie game has at least one person who thinks this is a good idea, untill it is explained to them that this is really no help to anyone apart from scum.

This is an interesting take on the idea; do you feel that the newbies who vote no lynch are equally town and scum?

[julienvonwolfe]

oh....i need to preview. right, ok.

Vote: Wysp

This post is extraordinary. n107, care to give your thoughts? We're well out of the random vote stage now, so I should hope you've got some substance to back up the vote.

---

About no lynches: I thought I had commented on these, but it looks like I haven't. As Excedrin says, they're pretty much essential to the town. No lynches are like giving the scum a free nightkill, and they also give scum a way to avoid putting any opinions on table.

---

Finally, I think that the forums may be cracking up again - I can't access my watched topics page, which is annoying. Make sure to copy any posts before you post them, in case they get lost in space.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm lurking because I'm expecting to get lynched and I don't see a point in sitting around here spectating,

That sounds really defeatest...

Indeed.

Wysp, if you don't have time to play, you can replace out. Otherwise, I would invite you to start being useful to the town.

[julienvonwolfe]

Well, I don't actually think very many people are buying the newb excuse as Wysp/NAW have a combined 6/9 votes.

@NAW: I'm curious; why haven't you placed a vote on anyone yet? Do you not think anyone has done anything scummy yet?

I will add that there's no reason for somebody not to have their vote on somebody else at all times, at least on Day One. Indeed, there are many reasons why everybody voting is a good idea, provided that this doesn't lead to a quicklynch.

[julienvonwolfe]

Maybe a bit of a tall order, but can you give us any insight on your predecessor's vote for Wysp?

[julienvonwolfe]

There's two reasons why I'm still voting for Wysp:

1) I don't like to change my vote too often. Votes lose their meaning if they hop around too much.

2) I must confess, I've not been keeping up as well as I should; I'm coming up to a mid-term break and there's lots of assignments for me to do. However, I will be done by Saturday and will do a major re-read that weekend.

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, and adam, how much mafia have you played before? You seem to know what you're doing.

[julienvonwolfe]

I know this sort of contradicts what I said earlier about not being able to pressure lurkers, but n107 exhibited some very scummy behavior and then disappeared, thus contributing very little analysis to the game itself.

Vote: n107yuh

This seems like a safe vote for a scum. Now replaced again, my character comes on -- makes a quick vote and then goes idle. Why did he do it? I'm guessing he started to read the thread and got bored with it but went with his initial-reaction vote...which was for wysp, and rightfully so -- as my initial reaction to him was scum as well when I began reading.

I got a bit delayed getting back, but I'll be active now. Vote

oramiuri

.

So you think Wysp is scumbuddies with oramiuri?

@vonwolfe
you are the most experienced here. your vote is on wysp. so, do you still think wysp is scum or that he has just been a noob? Who else is scum in your opinion.

It's always hard to say, and you end up WIFOMing yourself too hard if you try to think about it. I speak more of my vote later in the post.

I could flail my arms about and make wild, unsupported accusations; indeed, my thought process is often of jumping from one extreme to another and reasoning down to the middle; but I try not to post as such, as I would seem and obnoxious and rash. I do not enjoy being thought of as unpleasant by complete strangers.

Don't worry too much about being thought of as unpleasant by strangers. We all know that this is a mafia game, where tensions can run high.

adamrights- scummy looking predecessor, hasn't done much to improve the image.

My predecessor at best gave a null-tell, because he acted like a complete newb...who was unable to use a computer. Seriously, would even a newbie scum make such a stupid move? If anything your grasping at straws while your slipping yourself. Speaking of which..."hasn't done much to improve the image?" Really now, because what should I have done? Parsed everyone's meta data and break down all the possible scum partners like JulienVon did in one of her newbie games? (Give me some time...)

Speaking of which, why are you acting like such a useless town member this game Julien?

I did warn that I would be busy with school. I should be available right up to the deadline from here on out, though, at the very least. Apart from my short break, how have I been useless?

By the way, I'm male, as should be implied quite well by the name Julien. It's not too hard what I tried to do in that game, but it's a bit useless until you get to day three or thereabouts. I'm surprised you read it, though. That was a massive game for a newbie setup.

However, I don't like the way you use a WIFOM argument in this post. Certainly you can't be expected to know your predecessor's exact thought processes, but this doesn't mean that you should resort to WIFOM in defense.

----

As to my vote:

Wysp appears to have been adjusting from a radically different style of mafia, from what I've gleaned in hints in his posts. He's playing the newb card quite strongly, which may or may not be true. My vote on him doesn't appear to be causing undue stress, though - which is what I was looking for - so I will focus on somebody else for the moment, and give him the benefit of the doubt as to his alignment. However, I want to see some proper scumhunting from him.

XScorpion's focus on lurkers is seeming a bit too obsessive to me. Making sure everyone is active isn't scumhunting, it's trying to do the mod's job for them. If you want somebody to post, get the mod to prod them.

@NAW: I'm curious; why haven't you placed a vote on anyone yet? Do you not think anyone has done anything scummy yet?

I do belive some people have done scummy, such as wysp, but in wysp case i belived that he is just being noob over scum. from then i had a hard time deciding untill xscorpion posted. i FoS instead of voted because i wanted to see his reaction to my questions and accusations, neither of which were satisfactory to me. In hind-sight a vote would not have hurt, but i also didnt want to seem as if i was trying to bandwagon him.

This is refreshingly candid, but it also stinks slightly.

Also, all of the people still voting for adam - it's considered polite by some to unvote when somebody replaces, since they can't really be expected to explain what their replacement has done. A minor FOS for all of you.

Adam gives me a funny gut feeling, but I can't put my finger on anything he's done as being very scummy. However, I'm watching him closely.

All things considered,

unvote

and

Vote: XScorpion

.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sorry I haven't been around, last night and this morning have been busy.

JVW--Um, I know it might be common courtesy, but presuming he is scum due to his replace...I'm not sure I follow...Like it has been said before: if one person is scum, and then replaces out, doesn't that by default make him scum? I think that Adam is scum because his predecessor was scum...I could be wrong, but still.

FoS Adam

.

Wysp...the person I replaced wasn't scummy, he was totally unable to play the game at all...and at best made a null-tell for his complete inability to play.

This is a real odd, out of place FoS by you.

Adam, kindly answer the question I asked in 207.

It's a stretch to say that your predecessor wasn't scummy. Flaking is a null tell; voting without reasons isn't.

The weird thing, as I see it, is that Wysp has FOSed adam after already voting for him. This seems quite redundant in the circumstances. Wsyp, on the site that you usually play at, how do people use FOSes?

@xscorpion
what about his latest posts satisfy you? they didn't really do anything for me.

The fact that they actually exist and aren't void of information...unlike n107 who did nothing but confirm and place a vote on Wysp.
At least adam is here and playing the game.

Yes, he is. Rather than focus on who's playing and who isn't, why don't you focus on how he's playing?

[julienvonwolfe]

@Julien: Sorry about the her-thing. Let me clarify, hopefully with less WIFOM (though there's going to be some wine...I mean, the fellow made two posts)

FYI...n107yuh I'm guessing from playing mafia IRL, where it's all facial reading and quick lynching did not have a clue what to do...or how to scum hunt; pardon his posts

So n107yuh is a newbie player, who only played in real life and seems to have computer issues. He comes in late, starts to read the thread, sees that the beginning makes Wysp look guilty, so he throws down a vote.

This works IRL mafia, because you can look at the person's reaction, see their face. The game functions with a lot more voting back and forth, facial reads, etc when played that way.

Now, if my predecessor was scum and was a newbie and didn't know what to do -- it seems to me his likely course of action would have been to make a post without voting at all. Voting, especially without giving any reason looks real suspicious. Especially when you then make a post right after saying you figured out how to do the bold.

To me that looks like town, unafraid, careless -- and sadly in this case, uninformed...I need to read closer on the people who kept the argument n107yuh was/acted like scum. Because I'm sure a newbie could easily through suggestion think that, but most likely an informed scum would push that as well, since it wasn't hard to make n107yuh appear like he was acting scummy.

*Peers About*

That's an admirable hypothesis, but you're avoiding my question about whether or not you think Wysp is scumbuddies with oramiuri.

[julienvonwolfe]

Yes. Would you like to explain it to those who may not be?

I asked my initial question about whether or not you thought Wysp and Oramiuri were scum because I couldn't understand why, if your initial thought was that Wysp was scum, you instead voted for Oramiuri. I can't find any logical progression in your thoughts.

[julienvonwolfe]

Ack. With all due apologies, V/LA for 48 hours.

[julienvonwolfe]

Yes. Would you like to explain it to those who may not be?

I asked my initial question about whether or not you thought Wysp and Oramiuri were scum because I couldn't understand why, if your initial thought was that Wysp was scum, you instead voted for Oramiuri. I can't find any logical progression in your thoughts.

Back from my short trip. Adam, can you clarify this? I realise that perhaps it wasn't explicit that I wished clarification when I wrote it like this, but help a brother out here.

[julienvonwolfe]

@oramiuri: How's that re-read going?

This is a pretty good question.

Looks like I'm about to die, and I highly doubt anything I do/say is really gonna change anyone's mind at this point...what are you guys' plans for when I flip town? If you guys believe in the 3rd vote theory, will Messiah be on the chopping block? I apologize to all the pro-town, because I've played this game rather poorly, and pretty much everyone who is voting for me has an excuse for voting so that when I'm gone, they can easily avoid suspicion.

XScorpion appears to have given up. This is an appeal to emotion, which is a scumtell.

With my IC hat on: assuming your lynch does take place, and I say assuming because I know that anything can happen in mafia, don't quit the site. I've been lynched as townie and as mafia in newbie games and I know that it can suck.

[julienvonwolfe]

Either NAW, being scum and being worried that someone was on to him, pegged the most active pursuer of a case against him and got lucky, or someone was talking when they shouldn't have. I mean, really. What are the odds of nailing the Doc on Night One?

*puts on IC hat*

This site has an honour code that basically says that people will always follow the rules. Talking outside of the thread when your role doesn't permit it is against the rules, and because of this, vague accusations like you've made here will probably be considered offensive by the players involved.

I understand that other sites may have other ways of playing, and that's fine. But that's how it's done here.


*takes off hat*

But that aside

and #### you mafia.

And I quote from the Mafiascum Wiki article "Finding Mafia":

Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

I've seen it a few times myself, but not that often. This would be more evidence to NAW being worried.

Yes, this is a classic scumtell.

ust a theory as to why Excedrin was killed. He was on to something as far as the 3rd vote theory goes, or he was on the right track to catching scum. Its not much, but its something.

...or maybe that's what they want us to think! WIFOM.


@ Messiah; I admire the time and effort you're putting into your PPBAs, but I have to disagree with at least one of your comments. I wouldn't call NAW's 27 'pointless'. Full of WIFOM it may be, it also contains his thoughts on at least two players.

This is part of the reason I dislike PPBAs in general. Sure, it's helpful to read people in isolation, but mafia's a game of interactions and this doesn't really come through in a PPBA. Also - I'm not saying that this is what you've done - they tend to turn into tunneling and sarcastic comments, which is a little bit useless.

And about bussing - I don't think that you could describe their interactions as 'bussing'. Bussing would imply that they actually led a lynch on each other, which hasn't happened. Admittedly, there is a high degree of distancing going on, which is probably what you meant.

I shall read through the thread again before my next post.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, after briefly reading the thread, we have seven left:

1. oramiuri
2. adamrights (replaced n107yuh in Day One)
5. Messiah (replaced S23181208 in Day One)
6. Wysp
7. purple princess
8. NewAgeWarrior
9. julienvonwolfe

The people we might categorise as lurkers are oramiuri (13 posts), and purple princess (15 posts). Adam also hasn't posted today.

I am interested in the situation unfolding between Wysp and Purple Princess. Wysp appears to be learning the rules of this site a bit, though still gets it wrong - see the lecture I gave him above. I'm going to give him less of a newb card from now on.

@ PP: You state that Wysp waiting to vote is just as bad as what Oramiuri did, and FOS Wysp. Yet you didn't FOS Oramiuri. Why not?

@ Wysp:

No, it's simply a lack of information. I don't want to jump on a bandwagon unless I think it is logical. I am not the kind of person who votes right off the bat; I measure people's reactions.

Surely you have plenty of information, given that we have a whole day's worth of posting to read through?


I'm torn as to where to put my vote at the moment. I want answers to these questions first, and I want NAW to reply to Messiah.

---

About PPBAs:

As for the usefulness of PBPA's, I don't really understand your comment about interaction not coming through.

Okay, some interaction does show through, but not as much as if you take notes or simply read through the thread. I guess I just have a few questionable examples of PPBAs in my head from games I've played in. One was in an experiment called amnesia mafia in which the game thread was deleted after each day to prevent re-reads, so I can't link to that. However, here's another. Both Porkens and Issac are townie:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#1397618

While I suppose they can be used to good effect, in this case I feel that it was too much, too strong. When you drown someone in a wall of text five miles long they can't hope to make a reasonable response to it, and the aggressive language here I feel is unnecessary.

Perhaps I would feel differently had Porkens been successful in catching scum, but w/e. Do keep in mind that I'm not saying that reading people in isolation isn't handy - but I don't feel that it is the best method of analysing play. PPBAs are too easy to turn into 'make everything somebody does a scumtell'.

If you're going to ask what I feel the best method of scumhunting is, I would say that you should find a single point that doesn't gel, and focus on that until you get a satisfactory explanation. Then move on to another. I find watching how people handle pressure informative, and good cases can be built from even the smallest-seeming of contradictions.

[julienvonwolfe]

@PurplePrincess: You don't find anything that Wysp has done suspicious?

Not really, I didn't really like the whole no lynch thing, but that is such a newbie thing to do, almost every newbie game has at least one person who thinks this is a good idea, untill it is explained to them that this is really no help to anyone apart from scum.

@ PP: You state that Wysp waiting to vote is just as bad as what Oramiuri did, and FOS Wysp. Yet you didn't FOS Oramiuri. Why not?

I think Oramiuri was more of a newbie move, frightened to say anything out of place incase it is taken the wrong way. Wysp's post looks more scummy to me, very subtle about wording it, but generally the same thing said as Oramiuri. Also he posts this after a bit of pressure has been applied towards Oramiuri for the same thing.

You've said that Wysp was a newbie before, yet you now appear to have changed your mind. Why?

[julienvonwolfe]

@ NAW, Why have you changed you reason for your early town claim? This has scum written all over it to me. I do not see your logic in your recent post as to why you wanted to be nk to save a pr. You wouldn't even know for sure that we had power roles in this game untill Excedrin was killed and revealed to be a doctor. In your early posts you say that we would be stupid to belive your claim so early on in the game and it was done more to seem freindly than anything else, but in your later post you say that you set this whole thing up to be night killed and save a power role. Seems like you want to appear as being super townie and be killed to save others. To be honest I don't beleive thi


post 40

Well, to be honest, who wouldn't claim vanillia townie at this point in the game, its not like i claimed cop, doc or scum, and if i am any of those, I'd wouldn't say I'm one of those untill im about to die. I don't really expect anyone to belive my claim at this stage of the game, and anyone who believes me is a little too gullible anyway. Simply put, if i asked everyone to roleclaim right now, they would all say townie.

post 44

And as i mentioned above, I don't expect anybody to believe my claim (just like how you don't), and my claim is utterly useless anyway. It was more of a friendly comment to the person who voted for me

.

post 307

The entire reason for my early claim was to try to hint to scum that I WAS a PR, so i would be NK (thus saving a PR from death), or even better, be protected by a doc who also thought i was a PR, thus negating a NK. I say this now because my plan clearly failed. I have never tried it before, and i don't think i will be doing it again, at least not without a better approach.

You know, I don't actually see the problem here. Vanilla townies are less useful to the town than power roles. Power roles must stay in the game at all costs from the point of any vanilla. A vanilla being nightkilled means that the power role(s) are alive to work their magic for one night longer. That's pro-town. I was nightkilled on night two of one newbie game when I was a vanilla townie because the scum thought that I might've been a power-role. I was later congratulated by the mod for acting as a lightening-rod, despite it being all accidental on my part. (Story of my life, I guess )

And, of course, if NAW had stated this logic yesterday, it might not have been as effective. I think it would have actually just created even more WIFOM, which is pro-town when it's being done to the scum. But I can understand his reasons for not stating it and it fits in with my gut read of NAW.

I don't find NAW's earlier posts 'explaining' his claim to be inconsistent with his later explanation above, and to be honest, I'm having trouble seeing how PP sees it as a change in his reasoning. Also, we certainly didn't know at that stage if there were any power-roles, but there was a 75% chance of there being at least one.

I'm sensing crap logic here from PP, and that to me is more suspicious by far than anything else I've seen this game.

Vote: Purple Princess

I'm sorry guys, got bogged down with my school semester beginning. I probably should have asked for a replacement.

I also was pissed at XScorpion's move, that was ridiculous that we did not get to see who would hammer. I need to go read up...will see if I can make a post late tonight or tomorrow.

I don't think that there would have been a hammer. With the deadline rules, it looked like XScorpion would be lynched anyway, majority or no majority.

[julienvonwolfe]

I realise that I left a bit out of my vote for Purple Princess. NAW's execution of the strategy (drawing the nightkill) was fairly horrible. But I don't think it's scummy to claim vanilla townie, just anti-town. After all, if a mafioso claims townie, how does that help them discover power roles?

A more pro-town way of trying to draw the nightkill is to subtly breadcrumb in such a manner that the person who really has the role you're breadcrumbing doesn't try to get you lynched. This is how it happened in the newbie game I mentioned.

---

Hey Julien...

do you intend to respond to any bit of my player reads?

disagreement or otherwise would be nice.

It's a bad idea to list all of your reads since that allows scum to see easily who the town views as the most 'townie' player. In theory they will then nightkill this player as they're unlikely to be lynched.

Your views on Adamrights I don't really understand. Can you clarify?

You criticise me for having posts with game theory - fair enough. But in my defense I must fill my role as IC as well as a player.

If you think that Wysp has been consistently scum-hunting, why do you only have a 'neutral' read on him?

[julienvonwolfe]

julienvonwolfe

The only thing I can go on with julienvonwolfe is I don't feel he is town, I cannot explain or put my finger on it, I guess it is just gut feeling, sorry, sounds really crap but that's just how I feel right now.

Maybe it is because I voted for you?

[julienvonwolfe]

Just a brief note that my access will be spotty this weekend - I am going camping, I know not where.

[julienvonwolfe]

I don't like JVs quick, "Why because I voted for you" -- post on PP. It seems a bit forced in its cockiness.

I wasn't being cocky. I try not to let emotion get in the way when playing mafia.

In post 329, I was the only one in the list of players that she gave that she thought wasn't town.

Now, note how she has never voiced such views before that post in the thread. What had changed to make her decide that I suddenly wasn't town? Most likely, it was my vote for her. Essentially, I was accusing her of OMGUS.

Moving on, here she says that it wasn't OMGUS:

julienvonwolfe The only thing I can go on with julienvonwolfe is I don't feel he is town, I cannot explain or put my finger on it, I guess it is just gut feeling, sorry, sounds really crap but that's just how I feel right now.

Maybe it is because I voted for you?

Blatant OMGUS is saddening, isn't it?

Really? surely if this was blatant OMGUS I would have said something before now, as

julienvonwolfe has been shooting down my idea of NAW as being scum for quite a while

, just seems to be defending NAW a little too much for my liking. If you want to call it OMGUS I'm happy with that, it's what I believe.

The bolded section is a blatant lie. So yeah, I'm happy with my vote right now.

[julienvonwolfe]

That's not the same thing as responding to an accusation. For example, you have made no response to my assertion that you have lied about how I have defended NAW.

Admittedly you have no defense, but I would have thought that you would've backed down or explained why you said what you did.

[julienvonwolfe]

It'd probably be best if somebody unvotes so that the replacement doesn't have a chance to just come in and hammer... >.> just a thought.

I don't think scum would quicklynch (if that's what you're thinking) unless it's lylo. It's a stupid play otherwise.

[julienvonwolfe]

Also, where's JVW? I'd like to get his take on this.

JVW is in New Zealand, where the timezones are almost opposite everybody else's. It's good to see such a lot of activity. Welcome to the game, orphevs, you've given it a needed boost.

---

I've noticed another hypocritical move from Purple Princess. Here, she expresses an unfavorable view of my activity:

juliennonwolfe;

Not really that active player, but is quite clever in the way that he posts enough not to go un-noticed.

As of now, my current post count is 32. And also,

her

current post count is 32! I don't think I need to say any more.

---

As for Orphev's list of people - other than my frustration at people continually listing all of their reads, I am incredulous at his read of Purple Princess. Orphev, can you explain to me how you think Purple Princess' attack on NAW's vanilla townie claim was good and logical?

[julienvonwolfe]

I am unable to comprehend the last two posts. What is this issue of 'priorities', and how is it relevant to mafia?

Wysp, are you saying that you would prefer to lynch NAW rather than PP, and if so, why is your vote on PP?

Ray, can you explain exactly to whom your last sentence is directed? If it is Wysp, you seem to be attributing orphev's read of PP to Wysp; if it is orphev, you appear to be thrusting this whole issue of priorities at him rather unfairly, since I don't think he used that word at all.

[julienvonwolfe]

I already found you scummy.

Her point made sense, thus making you slightly scummier than before.

You've explained it, thus...

unvote, vote: adamrights

(you is plural as in both julien and NAW)

I saw a contradiction, and, to be honest, I applied pressure >.> I don't know if you are lying, thus I must see your reaction. You kept your cool... I like it when people keep their cool under pressure. Thus, I return to adamrights

I don't really care about "nice" or "safe" when it comes to voting: if I think you are scum more than anybody else, you

will

have my vote. Either that or I'm pressuring you in order to get a better read.

Ray, do you still stand by this post and this vote?

[julienvonwolfe]

I can see how a case can be made for NAW being scum. However, considering PP's lie, hypocrisy and crap logic, I'm not going to change my vote.

[julienvonwolfe]

Hmm. Ray, you didn't vote for anybody in the end, yesterday. Why not? Did you simply not wish to hammer?

[julienvonwolfe]

What is your opinion on Orph now?

Oh, and I've been neglecting my IC duty. This is lylo, though not endgame. This means that unless you're cop with a guilty on somebody, you must be extremely careful with your vote. Otherwise, scum may quicklynch.

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh. Looking at the set-up, it looks as if we have a 50% chance of a cop. If you're the cop, you might consider claiming - even if you only have two innocent results. This would tell us who the scum are.

My reasoning goes: Five players left today; two are confirmed innocent, one is the cop, two scum left.


Of course, if you have a guilty result on anybody, just come straight out with it so we can lynch the scum sharpish.

[julienvonwolfe]

Hmm. Correct procedure would be to wait and see if there are any counterclaims to Wysp, but due to the doctor lynch and their own roles, scum would be able to work out whether or not there was a cop.

We should wait for NAW to respond.

[julienvonwolfe]

Well, if it's just a matter of being confused about who replaced who... the number of replacements in this game is a bit difficult to keep track of. Wysp, do you remember who you investigated on that night? (The exact player, not the slot).

Also, did you breadcrumb at all?

[julienvonwolfe]

Indeed. I think NAW is defending himself in the only way that could be expected to work, by trying to discredit the cop claim. Wysp seems to have pulled it off fairly horribly... but considering other elements of his play, perhaps that's to be expected.

I will think on this.

[julienvonwolfe]

Where's Orph? They seem to be hiding.

[julienvonwolfe]

Hold on. Somebody has to be the cop? How do you know that?

[julienvonwolfe]

What you're basically asking for is impossible. At this stage in the game, the best guide is simply gut feeling. Asking further questions is not worth a great deal, since one of the main characteristics of townie play is that they're not scared to die for the town. Scum can't afford to die, of course, due to their few numbers. However, at lylo, when another townie dying means game over, townies have to play like scum. Extensive re-reads are also not usually very useful, since they usually end up leading players in WIFOM circles.

However, this isn't to say that we should rush in and vote strictly according to gut. Cool logic is always useful. The main issues today, as I see them:

- Is Wysp telling the truth about his claim, and if not, why not?

- Was orph's comment about how there must be a cop a scum-slip or mere inattention?

There's a 50% chance that Wysp is town and telling the truth, which might suggest that there's a 50% chance of NAW being scum. However, both could be scum. It's quite a scary thought, actually, if they are, since Wsyp-scum-fake-cop would have lots of credibility tomorrow, assuming the NAW lynch comes off. Orph's comment leads us in WIFOM circles again, so pondering it too much is useless. However, I would like everybody to comment upon these two issues. After that, we may as well put some votes on the table. It's called lynch-or-lose for a reason - we can't no-lynch.

I would like everybody not voting to declare who they would vote for if they weren't scared of the risk of ending the game.

Me, I think that I would vote for NAW or possibly Orph at this point. I think Ray's town, and my gut suggests that Wysp is telling the truth about being cop. The way he revealed his role fits in so well with the rest of his play that I don't think it's a fakeclaim.

[julienvonwolfe]

Currently, I think Wysp is possibly telling the truth, but the idea that he has a consistent playstyle is not good support (since it could just as easily be consistent scum play as consistent town play).

*snip*

Anyway, what about you, julien? Do you think it wa a scum slip?

I should've probably written this last night, but it was 3 am and I was a bit tired.

You make a fair point about how Wysp's play could be consistent scum-play. However, I've found that consistent scum-play is quite rare, especially in newbies. When you play as scum, it's very different to playing as town. Town are townie by definition, whereas scum must

act

townie. This can trip people - even experienced people - up. Fundamentally, as I have said, scum can't afford to die in the same way as townies can. They have to act like they are willing to die in the same manner as a townie (though townies should never go down without a fight), yet not actually die. This conflict can put immense pressure on players, and this is what causes variations in playstyle.

Of course, the heart of the problem with Wysp is the classic 'newbie vs. scum' conundrum, and I've already given my opinion. Can't do more than that.


As for orph, the art of spotting scum-slips is quite tricky. I was convinced that I'd seen one in that massively long game modded by incognito (see my wiki) from Zach, but turned out to be wrong. Hence my tentativeness before. Logically, it should be a scum-slip. This is assuming Orph and NAW scum, Wysp cop, and you and I townies.

Anyway, we've all three not voting said that we want to vote for NAW. Not much use dragging it out, then.

Vote: NAW

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, perhaps slightly bad timing but happy birthday, NAW.

[julienvonwolfe]

Tenchi, you're a cruel person.

[julienvonwolfe]

How was the 21st?

[julienvonwolfe]

Hey, good point.

[julienvonwolfe]

The game's over but my IC duties haven't finished. I've seen a few of you sign up for newbie games again - that's cool, because newbie games can be engaging in themselves.

If, however, you plan to play in other parts of the site in the future, go ahead and do it. Newbie games won't help you a lot more, and you can learn much more by playing against the general population of the site.

[julienvonwolfe]

That's impressive. How do you keep up? Do you feel that you do justice to all of them?

[julienvonwolfe]

I was sad that our IC didn't catch on to the fact that a cop "forgot" who was innocent. but hey, live and learn.

Oh man, I feel bad.

[julienvonwolfe]

A quick note - all of the things I said as IC in this game were true, even if I applied them in ways to suit my own purpose.

Other than that, good game indeed. We really got lucky when we killed the doctor on night one - that was pure luck.

It worked out OK in the end but I'm kicking myself for not getting Wysp to bus me (or vice versa). This would've been an easy and very elegant win on day 4. As it was, it was a bit touch and go.

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh - and if I was town, I would've lynched Wysp on day one. Even in newbie games, you should lynch new people for playing like scum. You can see that I tried to lead a Wysp lynch but backed off when I saw that it was unnecessary.

[julienvonwolfe]

the PBPA thing might be due to my posts against them - I stand by that even now. But yeah, I'm glad people didn't look at Wysp too closely.

[julienvonwolfe]

That, and I kind of manipulated your lynch. I always feel bad about mislynching people, but you have to be ruthless as scum.

One person we haven't heard from is purple princess. She shows potential - she was on to me as scum - but she just needs to work on the execution a bit. By not replying to my arguments, she just dug her own grave. I hope she hasn't given up playing mafia.