Newbie 816 - Game over!

[imkingdavid]

Hey, guys, as Vel said, I'm in for Steve. This is my second game here. You can call me imkingdavid, david, king, IKD, "hey, you", or anything (nice) really, as long as I know you're referring to me. I will, in turn, probably use abbreviations of your usernames as well.

Anyway, I'm going to read through the first four pages and give my thoughts. I'm guessing that by page four we're out of RVS (hopfully; I don't really like RVS). That being said, I will post my suspicions below and then place a vote at the end.

Realize that if at any point I refer to "the town", I am including myself.

The only reason I am saying this is so that someone cannot say "ooh scum slip... you said "the town", not

us

". That kind of thing is a long shot anyway.

If that's supposed to be long, wait until someone makes a Mastin post

Here it comes, although hopefully not

as

long as an actual Mastin post; those are killer. And don't worry, not

all

of my posts will be long, I don't think. Btw, if you guys get bored and want a good read or want to see some really long posts, check out my previous game (Newbie 802).

Alright, so I will begin by analyzing everyones' votes. I have included a few teaching points in here as well, so I suggest you at least browse it.

• Cirdua (do you mind if I call you Cird for short? I'm too lazy to type "ua") votes pancakes (random vote).
  
• EB Votes Adel (for OMGUS, although I don't see how it's OMGUS; Adel had not posted yet)
  
• Dramonic votes EB (for voting the IC) interesting note: "
  we
  need him to mind-control the newbies " Who is we?
  
• Steve (aka me) votes no lynch. (teaching point:
  DO NOT
  suggest no lynch because it CANNOT help the town. At least, not in this case. Usually, it's not a good idea in Newbie games. It can be helpful in LyLo when you have certain roles still alive. But that's for discussion elsewhere.)
  
• EB votes Steve (for
  suggesting
  voting no lynch)
  
• TF votes himself (because he's not mean) (teaching point #2: do not self vote. Unless you're scum, it does not help the town in any way.)
  
• Steve votes Cirdua (assumably because he provided reasoning for not doing a no lynch... not a good reason)
  
• HF votes LL (no reasoning)
  
• pancakes votes HF (b/c of "best avatar"--btw I like it too, but that's not good basis for even a random vote)
  
• LL votes no lynch
  AFTER
  it has already been explained why you shouldn't. (because that's how they do it at epic mafia... well, that's not how we do it here. )
  
• EB votes LL (for "bandwagoning" a no lynch after explanation) (teaching point #3: a bandwagon is when people begin to pile votes on, one after the other. I usually consider something a bandwagon at the 3rd vote, not the second. I would not necessarily consider this bandwagonning, because Steve had already unvoted no lynch)
  
• TF votes EB (because "glasses are for loser") (teaching point #4: ok, that can be considered a personal attack, which I think is modkillable, so please be careful. also, we've had some good semi-serious discussion going on, so I think at this point we were getting out of RVS, so why the random vote this far into the game?)
  
• TF votes Cird (because of "trippy picture")
  
• Adel votes Steve (b/c no avatar. agreed that having an avatar is very helpful. if anyone else doesn't have one, I suggest you get one)
  
• Cird votes Dramonic (b/c of signature... ok I guess we weren't out of RVS. Close though!)
  
• LL votes EB (for pure OMGUS... why?)
  
• Adel votes pancakes (once again for no avatar)
  
• Adel votes EB (...I guess trying to prove a point. but why'd you put him at L-2? if there are scum that aren't voting him, they can quick lynch!)
  
• Dramonic votes Adel (for putting EB at L-2)
  
• LL votes Cird ("i fell like it"), btw LL and everyone else who doesn't have a gender icon set, would you mind doing so? I won't want to say "he" when you might be a "she".
  
• EB votes Adel
  
• Dramonic unvotes (at L-1 too soon)
  
• pancakes votes no lynch. (wtf!? tomorrow ingame, we'll be at the same place we are today ingame, except with one less townie. dude... it's already been explained twice!)
  
• EB votes pancakes (for even thinking about no lynch again)
  
• Dramonic tries to vote pancakes (it has to be in your own words.)
  
• Cird votes pancakes (same reasoning)
  
• Dramonic votes pancakes (same reasoning)
  
• HF votes pancakes (same reasoning) (you know he's now at L-1?)
  
• EB unvotes b/c that built up too fast (agreed. there has to be at least 1 scum on that wagon! As I said before, a bandwagon starts imo at the 3rd vote, so I would have to suspect Cird there)
  
• TF votes pancakes (more bandwagonning.. very suspicious... did you know you put him back at L-1?)
  
• Adel votes HF (b/c of wagonning)
  
• EB follows Adel and votes HF

Ok... I know I'm not IC, or even SE, but I hope you'll still notice and learn from my teaching points.

That bandwagonning was very suspicious in my mind. Since 5/9 people voted on that wagon, I'm willing to bet that one or even both scum are on that wagon.

But realize that looking for scum pairs before you eliminate one scum kills the town. For proof, look at Day 3 of my previous game!

Right now, because he put pancakes BACK at L-1, I'm going to

Vote: TF

(that is, Tfrench, abbreviated).

However, since Dramonic was 3rd on the first wagon, I am going to have to put my

FoS: Dramonic

In any case, it's still pretty early on. I suggest that unless you actually have real suspicions of pancakes (besides the suggesting no lynch) that you unvote him. There's no need to bring someone this close to a lynch on page 4.

[imkingdavid]

As a follow up, let me explain why I think it's a bad idea to pair two people as possible scum partners before you lynch the first scum. Here are a few scenarios:

Scenario 1

You pair 1 Townie and 1 Scum. You lynch the townie first, and since you paired the two, you will find it less likely that the actual scum is really scum. So you let him go based on your failed pairing.

Bad for town.

Scenario 2

You pair 1 Townie and 1 Scum. You lynch the scum first, and since you paired the two, you find it very likely that the actual townie is scum. So you lynch the townie as well. While you might have found a scum, you ended up lynching a townie for no good reason.

Bad for town

Scenario 3

You pair 2 Townies. You lynch one or both of them (just to make sure).

Very bad for town.

Scenario 4

You pair 2 Scum. This is the ONLY way it can go well. And at this point, where there are 9 players, I don't think it's highly likely that unless we get lucky we will pair scum.

Good for town, but HIGHLY unlikely.

So that is why you at least wait until the first scum is gone to look for links between two people. In my last game, town lost because they focussed on who might be linked.

Also, can we try and be a bit more active? This game looks to be going a bit slow, imo. (4 pages in 1 week is slow to me)

Finally, understand that we might not lynch scum Day 1. In fact, the odds are against it (7/9 are not scum, only a 2/9 chance of being correct). However, since there have been so many unnecessary bandwagons, I would recommend that we please try to do some thinking before we place our votes, especially when we get up in the L-2 and L-1 and Hammer areas. My vote is on TF right now, but I will change it if someone else appears more scummy to me.

[imkingdavid]

Right now, because he put pancakes BACK at L-1, I'm going to

Vote: TF

(that is, Tfrench, abbreviated).

However, since Dramonic was 3rd on the first wagon, I am going to have to put my

FoS: Dramonic

/agree with tfrench. The 2nd L-1 for a very meh reason after my unvote and comment feels to me like a goon piling on a bandwagon hoping to carry through a failing quick lynch - possibly reading his scumbuddy's vote as a signal to act? That, or a townie who was paying no attention to things, which is almost worth lynching on principle anyways.

Dramonic doesn't read particularly scummy to me. I think it's fairly clear he tried to vote 2nd (making Cird the 3rd) (though also agree with the mod not counting the vote), and either way I don't see it as scummy. I'm familiar with the '3rd vote=bandwagon forming=scum tell' theory, but I disagree with it. I like the 3rd spot personally, because it transforms a couple random votes into significant pressure to make a person respond, but doesn't push so far as to be a real danger. It's also always very interesting to see who pushes it further. Not saying I clear dramonic, I just don't read any tells into his vote.

Agree with Adel's associations as playing the odds, but links are pretty weak in this phase still, so not going to bank on that too much.

A couple good scummy suspects, and tf is the more suspicious by a small margin. Lets nudge this up a notch and see where it goes.

Unvote Fitz, Vote tfrench.

imo, the 3rd spot is a very safe space to pile on. Because you aren't the hammer and you didn't put the person at L-1, and on the same token you didn't help initiate a bandwagon by being one of the first two. Let me tell you that multiple times I've seen scum be the third on bandwagon and slip by. Maybe not

because

of that, but it didn't put suspicion on them in any case.

Actually, we should not put someone at L-1 until we are fairly certain that they are scum. In fact, while we have two scum floating around, L-2 isn't safe either because they can both pile on if they're not both already on it.

i stick to my vote, a no lynch is a free pass for scum

Even still, if pancakes is town and get lynched, that's two townies gone.

Guys, realize that we have a good while until deadline. No need to hurry through the day.

after reading all that has been said i think this...

nolynches are for mafia and losers and i'm a townie and too cool for school so..

unvote vote pancakes

Just be advised that stressing that you are town doesn't make you look any more town. Because that's exactly what scum try to do: look as townie as possible.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, HF put pancakes at L-1 originally. TF continued and put pancakes at L-1 AGAIN after EB unvoted. So while I agree that HF's L-1 vote was suspicious, it seems moreso suspicious that TF would see the L-1, the unvote, the reasoning, and then cast the L-1 again.

Does that make sense?

[imkingdavid]

Ok, HF put pancakes at L-1 originally. TF continued and put pancakes at L-1 AGAIN after EB unvoted. So while I agree that HF's L-1 vote was suspicious, it seems moreso suspicious that TF would see the L-1, the unvote, the reasoning, and then cast the L-1 again.

Does that make sense?

who can be scum if TF is scum?
who can't be scum if TF is scum?
who can be scum if TF is town?
who can't be scum if TF is town?

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're getting at with those questions. Should I ask the same to you but change TF to HF?
And I don't see why we are trying to look for partners at this point. As I showed in my second post, there is very little chance of being correct until we lynch one scum.
Why are you so concerned about defending TF?

[imkingdavid]

unvote, vote: imkingdavid

it is impolite to answer a question with a question.

Sometimes the best answer to a question is found in another question.
Besides... since when is impoliteness a scum tell? And do we have to be polite when scum hunting?

I will agree that it is a bit of a scum tell to dodge questions. However, instead of dodging them, I asked for clarification (when I said "I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're getting at with those questions."). So I don't see the validity of your reasoning for your vote.

In any case, for the sake of being

polite

...

who can be scum if TF is scum?
who can't be scum if TF is scum?
who can be scum if TF is town?
who can't be scum if TF is town?

1) 1 other person
2) 7 other people
3) 2 other people
4) Himself and 6 other people.
...other than that simple math, I'm not sure exactly what you were wanting. Would you care to be a little more... specific (for lack of a more suitable word)?

Now that I've answered your questions, can you answer mine?

Why are you so concerned about defending TF?

Thanks.

[imkingdavid]

@ Vel: Neither lailai nor pancakes have posted since the 26th. Can you please prod them?

Also, HavingFitz hasn't posted since the 27th, and will need to be prodded if he doesn't post tomorrow.

@Adel: another question: Is impoliteness a bigger scum tell to you than bandwagonning?
Because I've only heard of the latter ever being a legit scum tell. And you were pretty quick to switch from HF (for L-1ing pancakes) to me (for mere impoliteness).

[imkingdavid]

In any case, for the sake of being

polite

...

who can be scum if TF is scum?
who can't be scum if TF is scum?
who can be scum if TF is town?
who can't be scum if TF is town?

1) 1 other person
2) 7 other people
3) 2 other people
4) Himself and 6 other people.

stop being evasive, scumbag, name names.

...you're serious?
I mean... I've repeatedly stated that it DOES NOT help town IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM to attempt to pair people. Did you miss my post? If you saw it, what are your thoughts about it?

I'm not going to try and pair people that might or might not be scum until I know for a fact who at least one of the scum is.
In any case, I'm not going to be pressured into hurting the town by one vote from you.
But since you're so desperate for names, you may feel free to list people in whatever way makes you sleep peacefully at night.

And while you're at it, you can answer the questions that

you

skipped:

since when is impoliteness a scum tell? And do we have to be polite when scum hunting?

and

Why are you so concerned about defending TF?

You seem pretty determined to call me scum. What are your accusations against me? From what I can tell they are that: 1) I am not being polite and 2) I am being evasive/avoiding your questions.

Well, 1) you calling me "scumbag" isn't really the most polite thing I've seen, and 2) I just stated a couple of questions that you avoided.

[imkingdavid]

I have already stated why I do not wish to answer these questions: it does not help the town. Since you seem to feel that we should not be helping town, I will oblige my thoughts on who might/might not be scum or town. However, I do not feel that they should be used in any case, as they are only tiny suspicions. And as a warning, you may be once more a bit unsatisfied with my answers. But I am answering your questions.

who can be scum if TF is scum?
who can't be scum if TF is scum?
who can be scum if TF is town?
who can't be scum if TF is town?

1) If TF is scum, it is likely that HF is also scum. Unrelated to TF's alignment, I'm beginning to think you are acting scummy yourself. And as a literal answer to your question of who can/is able to be scum, anyone else playing the game can be scum. It's random. Only the mod and the players themselves know for sure.
2) Not to suggest that there are more than two scum, but I am not going to clear anyone until I know that they are town-aligned. So I cannot answer this question.
3) To be quite literal, anyone besides TF. If TF is town, anyone besides him that is playing has the same amount of chance of being scum as anyone else that is playing.
4) See #2

[imkingdavid]

As a follow up, let me explain why I think it's a bad idea to pair two people as possible scum partners before you lynch the first scum. Here are a few scenarios:

Scenario 1

You pair 1 Townie and 1 Scum. You lynch the townie first, and since you paired the two, you will find it less likely that the actual scum is really scum. So you let him go based on your failed pairing.

Bad for town.

Scenario 2

You pair 1 Townie and 1 Scum. You lynch the scum first, and since you paired the two, you find it very likely that the actual townie is scum. So you lynch the townie as well. While you might have found a scum, you ended up lynching a townie for no good reason.

Bad for town

Scenario 3

You pair 2 Townies. You lynch one or both of them (just to make sure).

Very bad for town.

Scenario 4

You pair 2 Scum. This is the ONLY way it can go well. And at this point, where there are 9 players, I don't think it's highly likely that unless we get lucky we will pair scum.

Good for town, but HIGHLY unlikely.

So that is why you at least wait until the first scum is gone to look for links between two people. In my last game, town lost because they focussed on who might be linked.

Also, can we try and be a bit more active? This game looks to be going a bit slow, imo. (4 pages in 1 week is slow to me)

Finally, understand that we might not lynch scum Day 1. In fact, the odds are against it (7/9 are not scum, only a 2/9 chance of being correct).

However, since there have been so many unnecessary bandwagons, I would recommend that we please try to do some thinking before we place our votes, especially when we get up in the L-2 and L-1 and Hammer areas.

My vote is on TF right now, but I will change it if someone else appears more scummy to me.

this post is so misguided it is breathtaking.

Examining connections between players and voting patterns are the two most reliable ways of identifying who is scum. Part of examining connections between players is encouraging players to express what their opinion of other players is, like the four questions I asked iamkingdavid. More voting and more bandwagons on players yields more empirical information that can be used later in the game.

The four scenarios he listed are true enough, but just like the lynch on day 1 that will probably lynch a townie, their utility is in identifying the entire scum team later in the game.

First, why did you bold that certain section of my post? I don't see any reference to it in your comments

Second, while I agree that we should examine connections between players, that method only works AFTER you know the alignment of at least one of those players. Otherwise, what's to keep you from examining two townies, and seeing them both as scum? I understand that you're IC and you've played a bunch of games and such, but you're not making much sense to me.

In any case, I agree that asking opinions of other players is a good thing. However, I disagree with your methods. If you wanted me to give my opinion on each of the other players, I would love to. But you forced me to in some way connect or disconnect them from TF. Which brings me back to the question: "Why are you so intent on defending TF?" Like I said, I'm not clearing anyone until I know their alignment.

Thirdly, are you really endorsing bandwagons? Yes, we need to pressure people, but not just on a whim. Once someone becomes suspicious to the whole town, people can start laying votes on and see how that person reacts under pressure. But just to bandwagon someone at random is stupid. Because once scum figure out that that's what you're doing, they'll be there for a quick lynch. (I'm aware of your excuse that you've posted however many times between your L-2 and the time someone makes it L-1. While that may look valid, I only see scum intentions behind bandwagonning as such).

Fourthly, you're right that the odds are in the scums' favor (as far as who we might lynch; it's a 7/9 chance that we'll lynch a townie and only a 2/9 chance that we'll lynch a scum). However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about what we're doing. This whole game is about thinking through what's going on and logically deducing from what you see who is a potential scum.

EBWOPreview: oh, I see, you like to post a string of responses rather than one long on. Gotcha. I'll wait until you're done.

yes, I think that would a be a useful question for you to ask.

Alright, then. Same questions about HF. Go.

as you claimed in that post, but it is not true.

Oh, so it's not true that there is only a slight chance that we will be lucky enough to find the right two people? Then what is true?

Because I can see HF being scum with more people than I can see TF being scum with. I think that both are scummy, but HF is more likely to be scum.

But that's just it. If you can pair me with yourself, and me with, say, HF, then you've just listed 3 possible scum. But there's only 2 scum in the game. So it doesn't work.
I rate "more likely to be scum" based on actual evidence, rather than "more people COULD be his/her scum partner".

FTR, I don't think that impoliteness is a scumtell.

Then how come you voted me based on my "impoliteness"? If you didn't, then why didn't you put your actual suspicions into your post?

saying that something is true does not make it true, and repetition has no effect. I think that your post was logical, but logic varies with player aptitude with logic, not player alignment.

To the first part, I couldn't agree more. If I said the sky is orange with hot-pink polka dots and kept repeating it, that wouldn't make it true. Correct. However, why throw out good logic just because you don't think I am as good at mafia as you?

I think that you are trying to:
1) discourage people from voting
2) discourage people from making the kind of posts (those linking players together) that will be useful under later analysis, once some players alignments are revealed by the mod
3) evade my questions

1) There's a difference between saying "don't ever vote" and "think through your votes before voting". Our votes are our only weapon as town. We shouldn't throw them around lightly.
2) Yes, I would rather we didn't try to link people until we have more information about alignment. Once we have that information, by all means, knock yourself out... I have no problem with linking people AFTER we know who's who.

And it's not a bad thing to point out observations that you have about how people are relating. However, it is bad to say "they must be scum because they both did such and such.

Two townies can do such and such just as much as two scum.
3) I answered all of your questions. I find it hard to believe that so many people find asking for clarification of a question equivalent to evading having to answer it. I will answer ANY question that anyone asks me (related to the game, of course) as long as I know what you're asking. If you're taking a test at school and you don't understand what a question is asking, do you just BS it and hope you were right (and later get punished for answering incorrectly) or do you ask the teacher to clarify what he was wanting and then be able to get a passing mark?

[imkingdavid]

In the end, I find that the best way to scum hunt is to see if a users' posts have more of a scum motive or more of a town motive. So even if the users' individual posts might not be as scummy, if their overall posting habits and such are scummy, then that will put them higher on my list.

Not to say that post content is unimportant--on the contrary! Content coupled with posting habits... that's how I find scum.

But trying to pick and choose who *might* be partners with whom when you don't even know who one of the partners is seems pretty farfetched and more of a scum motive than a town motive. But that's just me.

[imkingdavid]

I just thought of another reason not to base your case solely off of links: distancing. Scum are going to want to make it look like they have little to do with each other. If done correctly, scum will avoid the creation of any links with their scum partner while still interacting with them. While that may be difficult for newb scum to do correctly their first time, it's definitely not impossible and is not to be out of the question.

Anyway,

Actually, we should not put someone at L-1 until we are fairly certain that they are scum. In fact, while we have two scum floating around, L-2 isn't safe either because they can both pile on if they're not both already on it.

Uhm, do you really expect scum to be as stupid as to jump on a L-2 bandwagon to force a lynch? I mean, if two people were to suddenly jump on a wagon without much reasoning causing a hammer that would be seen as very suspicious. They'd probably get lynched Day 2.

This can turn into WIFOM really really quickly. Because you would argue that scum would not be that stupid. And if scum actually did do that, they would argue the same thing. I'm just saying what's could happen--this is a newbie game.

Again, I'm not saying don't vote, I'm saying think about what you're voting for.

Questions:
Adel, why are you so intent on tunneling me? All I am trying to do is bring up logical solutions what has happened and been suggested (e.g. no lynch and look for scum pairs).
Cird, between myself and Adel, whose points make more sense/are more logical?
Dramonic, I saw you posting last night in MD. What are your thoughts on the thread? Also, your posts in this thread have been sort of lacking in actual content. It feels like you're just trying to coast by and look active (active lurking) by posting, but not contribute. Your vote on TF after me was a parrot vote.
LL - You have not posted anything recently; what are your thoughts?
HF - Same question; you only have 3 posts in the game, and none contribute to scum hunting.
Pancakes - Same question; you also only have 3 posts (a random vote, a misformatted vote for no lynch, and a corrected vote for no lynch). What do you think about what has gone on?
TF - You have... 2 votes on you. What is your defense?
EB - What are your thoughts on Adel tunneling me and throwing false accusations at me right after I replace in and post some logic?

[imkingdavid]

This is day 1, not much lead to work on and all that's been going on is you and Adel arguing over semantics and two viable playstyle.

There's not much to say. Both points of view are functionnal, both points of view have their flaws.

Also, I don't think the fact that I agree with your reason to vote Tfrench and follow suit invalidates my vote in any way.

Right, that's all that's really gone on, which is why I'm asking questions to try and get others involved.
As far as your vote, it's valid and all, it just seems from your post that you were fairly quick to change you vote as soon as someone brought some new suspicions up. It's not bad to change votes or anything and I'm not about to build a case around you switching your vote to TF. Just pointing it out.

Cird, between myself and Adel, whose points make more sense/are more logical?

Both of you made some good arguments. Although I mostly agree with you about not linking players, unless there are some serious arguments to do so.

This can turn into WIFOM really really quickly. Because you would argue that scum would not be that stupid. And if scum actually did do that, they would argue the same thing. I'm just saying what's could happen--this is a newbie game.

That's not what I meant exactly, if two people were to quickly jump a wagon they would be seen as suspicious, whether they are scum or not so they will be lynched and/or pressurized. If I wanted to go all WIFOM on you guys I would say that you and Adel can't both be scum because of your argueing and that's why you two must be scum trying to cover each other up. This would be so obvious though that you can't be scum, which means you're scum. Whih means you can't be scum, which means you must be scum...
Can you see how the circle would go on and on and we still wouldn't know whether you're scum or not. I'm not saying you and Abel are scum, I was just providing an example of WIFOM so everyone knows what it means (for those too lazy to go to the wiki and look it up)

While I was writing this I noticed something changed

Adel has requested replacement site-wide.

I wonder why he replaced.

That's what I had meant as far as WIFOM. It can go in a circle and never get anywhere.

As far as Adel's request for replacement, I don't think we should try to attribute it to anything in this thread.

[imkingdavid]

Hi zwet. Please post your thoughts on the game when you get a chance.

I was quick to change my vote yes, but It was also to avoid a quicklynch, before my unvote pancakes was at l-1

Alright, good enough. Somehow it had not all connected in my brain. That make sense.

[imkingdavid]

btw, sorry, but

I will be V/LA until Monday/Tuesday

. I'll be glad to answer any questions anyone has when I get back. I might have access to the internet, but might not, so just wanted to give you a heads up.

[imkingdavid]

(back... sort of)

Okay I have read through the thread and there are things that caught my eye.

zwets, I don't know Adel so I don't know how he plays so you may not be able to clear this up for me, but Adel kept changing votes the first two seemed to be RVS, but then the vote on EB to put him at L-2 for no apparent reason seemed strange, then he changed votes again to HF because he felt that HF was the best canidate for being scum because he had the most possible scum partners, and then his last vote was for IKD for what seems to be OMGUS reasoning.

To me the flow of votes seems strange. But then you went and said this

zwets said

Ok, first, I'm not Adel. Adel is a scumhunting master, logical bonanzical schmu, and in my opinion the best player on the site.

Is there any reason why you needed to make sure everyone knew he was a scumhunting master?

Adel obviously had a problem with IKD even calling him a scumbag and you didn't have many nice words to say about him either. Do you find IKD scummy as well? And if so what makes you think he is?

I don't find IKD scummy, I find him arrogant, which I think is why Adel got mad at him.

Well, if arrogant = trying to be helpful, then sure. By the way, I found Adel's responses to me to be arrogant as well. I understand that he has been around the site for who knows how long and has played in a lot of games and such and is a "master scum hunter", as you said, but I just finished a game (and have read others that were similar) in which looking for scum pairs (or at least bringing up the idea of doing so) aided scum to victory. While, being scum in the game, I was happy to latch onto that, I stand by the fact that it is not good for town to try and find scum pairs this early in the game when no ones' identity is known. Once we figure out one scum, I would be more than willing to look for links between that person and others.

Anyway, as we have beaten that topic to death (although we've not come to much of an agreement on it), let me answer a few questions.

But you have concentrated your suspicions and conversation on HFitz and tfrench. Why have you not looked at the others on the bandwagon? What do you think of dram and EBad jumping multiple bandwagons?

Good point. I should be looking at other people as well. However, I just found TF's action scummy, so I voted it. I will be sure to take a closer look at each of the people that jumped on that wagon.

dramonic is currently #1 on my scum list, for blatant buddying up to imkingdavid's early long post, and other posts by newbies, which in my opinion has little content or any real opinions.

imkingdavid is WAY too wordy and is making huge mountains out of molehills, and somehow thinks that Adel is scum for getting annoyed at his imbecilities. His first post was most definitely NOT the amazingly lucid post dramonic said it was, and I'm confused as to why he praised it so much when it didn't even make sense and was pretty much full of completely wrong conclusions.

Vote: dramonic

Fair enough. However, please look at who is making a mountain out of a molehill. I came into the game and simply stated and explained my opinion on searching for scum pairs, as it was already being discussed. You know my opinion on doing so this early in the game. However, I was ready to drop the point and move on until Adel began tunneling/attacking me for it. I don't see how my defense is arrogant, although it may be wordy (I find that I can often condense a lot of my sentences, but it's easier just to post my thoughts as I think them).

As far as my posting being "the amazingly lucid" post, that is up to you to decide. I actually didn't find it that great either, but not each one of your posts are going to drop jaws.

In any case, until I get a chance digest everything that has happened so far, I will go ahead and remove my vote on TF.

Unvote

[imkingdavid]

@ Vel: I see you're looking for a replacement for pancakes, but also TF has not posted since the 30th, 5 days ago. Can you prod/replace him as well?

Btw, I am currently looking at all of the bandwagons/votes we have had so far to look for vote-following and such. However, I'm a bit busy with other stuff as well, so it may be a little while.

[imkingdavid]

First off, welcome purple princess. (I'll call you purple or princess for short if that's cool with you).

Wow! my head is spinning after reading through this game!
What the hell is going on with all this no lynch and bandwaggon talk!

That's people trying to play epic mafia on mafiascum

I see that people thought that no lynch was a good idea as it works on other mafia games, but I agree it has no place here.
I cannot really defend pancakes actions as they didn't really post much apart from no lynch and have come to the conclusion that they must have been new and realised that this wasn't for them, so instead of defending their vote they decided just to leave.

That actually sounds pretty probable. A lot of people register and sign up for a game without knowing what they were getting themselves into.

I see that a few bandwaggons have formed quite quickly but I am reluctant to think that they give us much information about who is/isn't scum this early on in the game as it could just be new players trying to find their feet before making logical reasons for voting.

FOS IKD

they game seemed a bit slow before you joined, but you seem to have jumped in with both feet and got the conversation rolling, which is a good thing, but your posts are really long and seem to have little substance to them, apart from going back and forth on the same argument I am unsure if this was tactical on your part. I also didn't like the way you tried to give 'teaching points' on how the game should be played. imo I find this a little scummy

As I explained earlier, I only went back and forth because Adel brought it back up. I was happy to give my opinion, give reasoning for the opinion, and let it go. If people disagree, they may do what they want.
You will note that, when giving my opinion, I gave my reasoning behind them. And when Adel decided he didn't like that, he just basically said, "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up". If he had provided counter evidence or something to let me see why I might have been wrong, I would have taken that into account and probably would not have been as "arrogant", as zwet put it.
Also, how is trying to help people learn a way to play considered scummy? I have my way of scum hunting and I'm trying to give my opinion on how things can be done. However, it seems like everyone else (namely, you, zwet, and Adel) is saying "Stop trying to help". Remember that this is a Newbie game with, well, newbies. So helping them get the hang of things is/should be expected.

[imkingdavid]

btw, I should add that once again am going to be

V/LA from tomorrow (around noon) until the 9th.

This time with definitely no internet at all. I'll try to post up until then if anyone posts anything that needs a response.

[imkingdavid]

I understand that this is a newbie game, but isn't that really the job of the ic and se's if new players need some help? I just get the feeling that you have postsed your teaching points because this is the way you like the game to be played, remember not everyone will share your way of doing things.

So now we get down to it. If I had an IC/SE tag, would my "arrogance" turn into being helpful? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that everyone should try to be the least helpful they can when they don't have an IC/SE tag? I can do that if you like.

by the way, I'm not saying that everyone will share my way of doing things. Like I said before, if anyone had given me a decent response to my opinion (rather than basically "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up"), I would have listened to what they said and possibly agreed after thinking about it.

I find that newbie games are quite leanient on new players who may look as being scum when really it is just down to inexperience, there are guides if they need help and if that doesn't help they could always just ask.

Well, I normally count things as newbie play rather than scum play near the beginning of the game, but as it goes on they get less and less lenience, imo. (although I am finding now that what I think is considered arrogant. So should I just let zwet make all the calls and follow him blindly because he's the IC?)

I still cannot make my mind up if you are scummy or as zwetschenwasser said just arrogant, I will do some more delving and then get back to you.

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

Can I ask everyone what is your experience of mafia? I would just like to see how new people really are.

On this site I have completed 1 game (Newbie 802) and am currently in two games (Newbie 809, Newbie 816). I am also signed up for another Newbie game, since neither of these games are as active as my first and I have some more time on my hands. (btw once I'm an a game as SE, am I allowed to be helpful in my other games as well, or is it still considered arrogant?)
In real life, I've played a bunch as all of the basic roles and won some, lost some.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it. Despite my explanation of my opinion, he continued in a very "I'm right because I have more experience and am an IC, etc." attitude that got me aggravated, and my increasingly emotional/sarcastic responses probably did nothing to help the situation. And of course, our argument distracted and detracted from the rest of the players' ability to look for scum, as well as allowed the scum to potentially be sitting back and laughing while we attack each other, which is never good.

Anyway, what was your aim from your post when you said, "as you continue to insist that your "teaching points" were helpful and lucid". I cannot see any purpose for that line except to elicit an emotional response from me, which you would have then tacked on to your case against me.
In response to that line, all I will say is that my intention behind my teaching points was to do just that: teach and try to give newbie players 1) a way to play 2) a reason behind playing that way. I was not trying to necessarily force my opinion on anyone, and as I have said numerously, I would have been more than willing to rethink my opinion if someone provided a solid counter-argument.

For the record, it was not my intention through my posts to come across as arrogant or haughty, but it seems that multiple people think that I have.
However, it probably turned to sound more like arrogance after Adel continued badgering me about my opinion without providing any counter evidence.

In any case, I'm going on V/LA in a few hours and when I'll get back, I'll try to be a bit more toned down and hold me temper. Sorry for getting this off on the wrong foot; that was not my intention at all.

Even though you are convinced I am scum, I encourage you (while not necessarily stopping looking at me) to look at others as well and make a decision then.

[imkingdavid]

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

After arguing that we shouldn't be looking for such a thing, I find this an interesting question. Asking it seems to invalidate your previous assertions. Did you have some other purpose in posting it?

You'll note that I specified that I was only doing this because popular opinion was for it, and I figured they would do it anyway, so I might as well get their thoughts on the matter. I still don't think that it helps town. Although neither does their tunneling me.

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it.

This is to be expected, I think, when making broad and controversial statements. Surely you expected some response? I don't agree with Adel's opinions entirely either, but it was unsurprising that someone stepped up to confront you. I'm personally unsure whether that was your intent.

It wasn't that I was not suspecting some response, it's that I wasn't expecting Adel to tunnel me continuously after I had already provided reasoning. I gave my opinion and my reasoning and he continued showing me just how stupid my opinion must be (even though it still makes perfect sense in my head). Just for the record, we've been going on like this for numerous pages, but no one has actually countered my opinion, other than saying that I am arrogant. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but don't personally attack me. Attack my idea. That's perfectly fine.

im, the problem is not your experience, it's just the way you're coming across in your posts. I'm starting to find you genuinely scummy

Agreed. The barrage of instructions of how to play are taking on a leading tone which I dislike, and which would provide a good cover for mafia. Of deeper concern to me, though, is that while he's talked a lot there's almost no attempt to scum hunt spread through it; just opinion and arguing with Adel until he launched a set of flailing questions, none of which were particularly insightful.

I haven't had much of a chance to scum hunt recently because:
1) V/LA (previous and upcoming)
2) Adel, zwet and princess continuing to tunnel me
3) Real life stuff

[imkingdavid]

btw, I'm leaving, so I'll see you guys when I get back. Happy scumhunting.

[imkingdavid]

Back. Will post in a bit.

[imkingdavid]

[appeal to emotion + side note]
Alright, so I see I'm about to be lynched (or at least I'll be auto-lynched if we reach deadline with me at 3+ votes). So first off, I want to say sorry to town for acting as I did. I was a bit over-excited coming into my second game (probably still shaky about winning in my previous game--I got so nervous near the end of that game) and hoped to try and be of help. I guess I acted a bit too excitedly. I dug a hole and now I can tell I'm not going to be able to reach back to the surface and pull myself out. So while lynching me (a townie--yes I just claimed) isn't highly beneficial to the town, maybe it'll give you some insight on day two as far as watching who jumped on attacking me once Adel latched on. I hope that town pulls through in the long run and does nail both scum instead of letting an IC and a few SE's latch onto someone to keep attention off of anything else (yes, I did just put the blame for the distraction on Adel; as I've already said countless times, I put my opinion out and my reasoning, and he went after me for it without any tact).
I understand that I did provide plenty of reason to be voted with my whole attitude this game, and I am hoping that it won't affect your opinion of me if we play again in another game.
[/appeal to emotion + side note]

In any case, here are my answers to your posts.
EB:

I'm understanding that you're doing something you believe is anti-town because others are pressuring you: is that interpretation correct?

Well, if that's how everyone is going to be expected to scum hunt, my opinion on the ethics of the method seems a bit null. I'll be voted now for asking that question (which you will note hasn't been answered in lieu of asking why I asked it), but realize that I would have been voted also for holding onto my opinion of not looking for scum buds, as current popular belief is against it.

Judging by the overall quantity of your posting, I disagree. You are merely sidetracked; the question is whether it's intentional or not.

Unintentional. I have lost interest in this particular game given the whole theory argument between myself and Adel.

Dramonic:

baaaaaacktracking on his own opinion and doing stuff he himself deems anti-town.

Parroting and jumping on the wagon, I see? Anything else you want to say? I find your short posts that merely parrot others' opinions (which you've consistently done throughout the game) without providing your own thoughts to be a bit scummy.

Zwet:

IKD, you can't say that just because right now we are suspicious of you that we're tunneling, per ce, as tunneling is usually considered scummy. Can you give us a list of suspicions?

...just suspicious, huh? Yeah right. That explains 3 votes on me and all of the discussion based pretty much completely on me and how scummy/arrogant I've been.
By the way, did you just say that it can't be tunning because tunnelling is considered scummy? (aka... you wouldn't be doing something because that would be considered scummy so it would be a dumb thing to do... WIFOM)

Princess:

No I would still think you are arrogant even with an IC/SE tag, from peoples replies from my question so far I see that no one is completley new, so your teaching points didn't really help anyone apart from me thinking you may be scum.

No one is completely new? Well, maybe not many of the people currently playing, as most of the newbies have been replaced with more experienced players. But my post trying to be helpful was before all of those replacements.
Also, I hope you don't use my apparent arrogant attitude in this game as a reason not to play later. If you read my previous game and my other current game, you'll see that that's not the attitude I try to have all the time and it definitely wasn't intentional.

So, pairing people up as scum didn't work in favour of town in your last game, so why are you asking me then?

See my response to EB.

havingfitz

And to answer your question about IKD...I am finding his 'teachings' good food for thought. Several people have given 'lessons' throughout the posts and I for one appreciate all of them...but IKD has been a little more vocal...not that I find that a bad thing.

Well, at least someone appreciates my attempt at being helpful.

Manzcar:

Also IKD is suspicious to me. The talk about the teory and arguing over is a distraction to thee town and not discussing theory was brought up in my first game with him so it seemed odd.

I started out by stating my opinion and backing it up. I only continued to discuss it once Adel decided to do so also.

I also didn't lke how he dropped his vote on tfrench just because I said that his vote did not line up with his theory on third vote is scum.

If you will read my post, I said:

In any case, until I get a chance digest everything that has happened so far, I will go ahead and remove my vote on TF.

Unvote

I didn't unvote based on you saying anything about how my vote lined up with theory. In fact, you encouraged me to look at others (you said in post 150 "Why have you not looked at the others on the bandwagon?"), so that actually justifies my unvote.

In any case, you know how I played as scum, and you know how I am playing right now. Keep that in mind.

Zwet (again):

WE DON'T WANT A NO LYNCH PEOPLE!

And yet you're unwilling to actually prevent a no lynch by voting me for another ~4 hours. And you act like we're rushed to lynch someone. Yes, a no lynch is bad, but as EB kindly pointed out, there were still 4 days (and now there are still 2 days).

THE DEADLINE IS IN TWO FREAKING DAYS! We can lynch dramonic tomorrow.

........................................
How are you so sure that dramonic will be tomorrow's lynch?



Anyway, like I said, it

was fun

wasn't that fun playing with all of you. I hope that my play during this game doesn't tarnish our ability to play civilly in future games together. As I realize my lynch is pretty much inevitable, this will probably be my last post in this game unless I feel like entertaining your questions a bit more. Cheers!

[imkingdavid]

Ok, I'll tell you what. If I am still alive on Day 2, I promise to start playing better and to drop my whole discussion of game theory and such. It really was not my intention at any point of this game to be such a pain in the ass.

Since EB wants me to vote, here are my thoughts. As I said in my previous post, Dramonic is very jumpy with his vote and parrots people without adding to the discussion. I first noticed that with his switch to voting TF right after I did without posting his own thoughts. He has done it more than that (including what I quoted in my last post).
So, my best bet for mafia is

vote Dramonic

.

[imkingdavid]

EB:

I'm understanding that you're doing something you believe is anti-town because others are pressuring you: is that interpretation correct?

Well, if that's how everyone is going to be expected to scum hunt, my opinion on the ethics of the method seems a bit null. I'll be voted now for asking that question (which you will note hasn't been answered in lieu of asking why I asked it), but realize that I would have been voted also for holding onto my opinion of not looking for scum buds, as current popular belief is against it.

Not really. I disagreed with your stance, but felt you had enough reasoning that YOU believed it.

And I still do believe it. Anyway, as I said, if I survive to day 2, I will take my foot out of my mouth and start playing better.

Judging by the overall quantity of your posting, I disagree. You are merely sidetracked; the question is whether it's intentional or not.

Unintentional. I have lost interest in this particular game given the whole theory argument between myself and Adel.

Tempted to kill you off just because of this. Again - YOU started off your play with broad and controversial statements on game theory; YOU are who started the debate - complaining because someone didn't blithely accept your logic is silly.

Hold up...
Ok, here's how I see my entrance to the thread:
Near the end of page four, I post my hello post, with a vote analysis, a vote for TF and an opinion that we shouldn't search for scum pairs yet. To follow that opinion up, I post my reasoning. For a good while, there's no issue.
Adel steps in and asks why I voted TF over HF, and I responded.

Then, he quickly asked me four questions that go AGAINST everything I had just stated, and made it so that if I didn't answer I looked bad because I was dodging questions, but if I did answer I was going against what I believed.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Dramonic:

baaaaaacktracking on his own opinion and doing stuff he himself deems anti-town.

Parroting and jumping on the wagon, I see? Anything else you want to say? I find your short posts that merely parrot others' opinions (which you've consistently done throughout the game) without providing your own thoughts to be a bit scummy.

Agreed.

Anyway, like I said, it

was fun

wasn't that fun playing with all of you. I hope that my play during this game doesn't tarnish our ability to play civilly in future games together. As I realize my lynch is pretty much inevitable, this will probably be my last post in this game unless I feel like entertaining your questions a bit more. Cheers!

Well, the current pouting aside, I think I'd happily play with ya again. Also, if you are town, one huge step you could take is to use your vote to try to steer a lynch towards someone you think is mafia. It's really hard to complain people aren't voting for better suspects when you aren't, either.

Done (see my previous post)

--

ATM, I think most of the issues with IKD center on his style/personal issues - being arrogant/sarcastic/pouting. I don't like his theories or his willingness to compromise just to stay alive, but I'm not sure I can specify most of the points against him as SCUM tells. I don't think he's a bad lynch, especially in the face of his complete lack of scum hunting, but I don't think he's the best either.

Dramonic's pre-emptive excuses for mislynches, hawkishness combined with lack of posting and scumhunting, and other comments are much more pro-mafia. I think he's a much better lynch today, but managing to skate under many radars because of his short posts and lack of content.

Zwet, did you switch because you prefer IKD or just to ensure a lynch?

Like I said, I will promise to work at being a better player if I'm still in the game Day 2.

[imkingdavid]

You killing town

Well less than 1 hour until deadline, so I guess we'll know pretty soon.

[imkingdavid]

I'm town, as I've said multiple times.

Please note that this is twilight, as deadline has been reached but no death scene has been posted. Note Vel's rule #8.

8. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; the lynched player may not post during twilight but all other living players may continue to post.

[imkingdavid]

Good morning folks! It is obvious what needs to be done here.

Vote: ImKingDavid

You're hasty.
Would you mind outlining for me your reasons for voting me so early today?

[imkingdavid]

Good morning folks! It is obvious what needs to be done here.

Vote: ImKingDavid

You're hasty.
Would you mind outlining for me your reasons for voting me so early today?

You weren't killed last night.

Ahh, so you're using WIFOM as a basis for a vote? Noted.

[imkingdavid]

I hope you're not as "positive" that I'm scum as you were dramonic. Because then you'll be 0 for 2.

Anyway, I'll be waiting for your case. In the meanwhile, I'll get some work done on mine as well.

[imkingdavid]

I think he means yesterday as in Day 1. Because if "You weren't killed last night" is an actual case, then what is this game coming to? Anyway, from what I can tell, his case against me is that I sound(ed) arrogant and defensive and haven't contributed to scum hunting. I guess I sort of agree with those, but I'm working to fix that today.

[imkingdavid]

IKD it looks like you were saved at the last moment. What are your feelings on the swing to dram at the end of day one now that he has flipped town?

Well, at that point dram was suspicious in my eyes, for his voting pattern and parroting others' posts. Its very possible that at least one of the scum jumped onto that switch, so we will need to analyse those votes to see. As far as dram flipping town, it's regrettable, but statistically it is more probable that we lynch a VT Day 1 when we don't have as much info.

Anyway, while I obvious am in disagreement with zwet, I won't place a vote on him at this point.

by the way, marching band camp just started today and lasts for the next two and a half weeks. So I will be less active, but will try to post my thoughts each day.

[imkingdavid]

purple princess and ikd are obvious scum buddies.

oh dang, you caught us. [/sarcasm]

are you suggesting that anyone that isn't completely in favor of my lynch is my scum buddy? You haven't even given any evidence that I am scum and you're already trying to pair me up.

seriously... do you ever actually show any work or do you just present accusations without backing them up with any reasoning? because that's all you've been doing this whole game.

Anyway, I'm tempted to vote you based on the fact that you're tunneling me with no reasoning, but that would be seen as OMGUS and would be used against me. But I will vote you if you keep this up.

[imkingdavid]

This will sound major omgus, but I have to agree with purple and crazy on this... zwet, you're not acting very pro-town with your one-liners and baseless/weak accusations.

Vote zwet

L-1

If you decide to start playing the game, let us know and I'll think about removing my vote.

[imkingdavid]

To avoid a prod (I know it's still a bit early but I don't know how much I'll be able to be on today), I'm going to just say that I have little to add. zwet's behavior has been nothing but scummy. Even if he isn't scum, he sure isn't helping us (the town) any.

[imkingdavid]

Angry, frustrated scum are more likely to make mistakes.

And angry frustrated townies are more likely to make a mistake on accident as well and be framed for it. Which is happening in this case.

As far as your case, I haven't responded to it because there's nothing to respond to. You say that I am arrogant. Ok, I already defended my day 1 attitude during day 1. You say that my first post wasn't as helpful as I had hoped and Dram had made it out to be... is that a scum tell? I didn't know that.

As far as the me/purple scum pair, I actually voted right after Cird, not purple. So that point is null. As far as when I voted, I stated that if you kept up your current behavior, I would vote. Whether or not anyone else voted. You did continue your behavior (aka not really posting anything more than a vague one-liner) and so I voted. It just so happened that purple and Cird found you scummy as well before I decided to vote.

[imkingdavid]

@ Vel: I also voted zwet. (see post 314).

@zwet: If you are referring to this post:

You don't understand what I'm trying to say. I purposely started day two on an established scummy note, eg providing a horrible reason for voting imkingdavid. I then proceeded to get purple princess annoyed at my attack on imkingdavid, hoping to get either ikd or princess to get annoyed enough to reveal something scummy or otherwise a slip of some sort, which is exactly what happened. ikd confirmed my suspicions that he is actively trying to assuage the town's suspicion through over-towniness in his earlier post, in which he said the most scummy thing ever, that even though there was very good reason to vote on my scummy behavior, he wasn't going to for fear of being scrutinized more closely. My scummy behavior is EXACTLY why I think ikd is scum. Any normal town player would have clearly seen the huge amount of evidence I have for why I'm scum and voted accordingly, but ikd reveals his unwillingness to vote the prime suspect for an INCREDIBLY SCUMMY reason. The fact that purple princess immediately provided support, and now that ikd has jumped on purple's wagon to try to fix his earlier mistake confirm my suspicions. ikd and purple princess are the scum.

all I pull from that is "ikd is being too-townie". You of all people (being an IC) should know that Too-Townie is not a viable scum tell. Anyway, as I said, I have explained my behavior and voting habit.

[imkingdavid]

Either you haven't read up on your mafia (unlikely) or you're being sarcastic. Neither of which help this game in favor of us as a town.
Here's a link to the too townie wiki article: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Too_Townie
It shows clear reasoning behind Too-Townie being a null-tell.

[imkingdavid]

Yes, I could be scum or town, but I've shown how likely it is for IKD to be scum, and how his responses to my accusations are spoken in a completely different light than his

earlier, more townish and more logical.

He's clearly flailing and VERY nervous at my accusations.

....I can't name one person at all during the course of this thread who has mentioned that any of my posts might have seemed townish or logical. Anyway, I promised a change in playstyle between days 1 and 2. And you got it. And yet you're still trying to nail that onto me as scum...

Does anyone think that ikd and zwet are trying to distance each other?

Why would two scum partners put themselves into the spotlight and make themselves both top suspects simply to distance themselves? There's too much risk involved in that. There are much easier ways to avoid creating links between yourselves but also stay low key. You can look at the two of us all you like, but keep an eye on others as well so they don't slip by.

[imkingdavid]

And yet you continue to ignore EVERY SINGLE THING I've asked you to respond to.

Well from the previous page, the only post that asks me to respond to something is post 315. I responded to that on this page.

What, then, are you referring to when you accuse me of avoiding questions? And don't just say "I am referring to the questions I asked you." Take just a few more seconds of your precious time to repost any questions you have for me. Then I will be more than happy to answer.

[imkingdavid]

And yet you continue to ignore EVERY SINGLE THING I've asked you to respond to.

Could say the same about you zwetschenwasser.

Still waiting to here from havingfitz.

I have answered everything that you've asked me. Please note, everyone, that this post has nothing to do with my attack on ikd, but instead tries to defend him by attacking me. This is known as a "chainsaw" defense, and is considered one of the best scumtells. I'm now 76% sure that at least one of princess and ikd are scum, and about 60% sure that they're scum partners.

lol 76%? How do you do your math?
Also, how is it scummy to look at multiple suspects at one time. Instead of tunneling one person, we as a town need to be looking at multiple people. Which is what princess is doing here by responding to your comment. Also, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them scum.

Anyway, you still failed to respond to:

What, then, are you referring to when you accuse me of avoiding questions?

[imkingdavid]

I don't understand your continued use of sarcasm. You seem very jittery and defensive at the moment.

You comment on her post, but don't answer it. You make accusations without providing specific examples. I would like for you to explain your lack of explanation.

Also you say that I don't answer any of your questions, but when I ask for you to remind me what your questions are, you don't, but rather accuse me of trying to dodge them. Seriously... how does that help?
Let me say it again, again:

Anyway, you still failed to respond to:

What, then, are you referring to when you accuse me of avoiding questions?

Havingfitz's argument with pianist looks like a pointless debate between two townies.

That's only because you can't look past your tunnel vision of me and purple being scum buddies. You can't get it into your mind that someone other that purple or myself are scum.
I play with an attitude of guilty until proven innocent. So I never mark anyone as townie. I just prioritize my attacks based on who is most scummy at the moment.

[imkingdavid]

Princess what questions has zwets not answered?

Sorry there seem to be quite a few, I wouldn't normally be this petty, but quite frankly I have had enough of zwetschenwasser.

Plus the one I quoted twice so far (see my previous post) that hasn't been answered. If anyone's dodging questions, it's zwet.

[imkingdavid]

purple and ikd, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you're asking me. In your next posts, please give me a list of the questions you want answered and I will do my best to answer satisfactorily in a way that confirms you are scum.

Purple just gave you an entire post (#360) of questions that you have left unanswered. And my post (#358) has a question which you failed to answer twice. Please answer those, as well read through and answer any that we might have missed that you failed to answer.

To me, you sound like you're completely uninterested in the game. If that's the case, please replace out so everyone else can enjoy playing with an active, competent player. Otherwise, actually start playing the game and answering questions and such.

Manzcar: in your post, you ask people for their opinions and ideas about things, but fail to give your own. What are your thought's on zwet's arguments against purple and myself as well as our arguments in response? And what are your views on havingfitz's discussion with crazy?

[imkingdavid]

@zwet: It's not rocket science. The questions are not difficult. At all. I say that you are uninterested in the game because you seem unwilling to take two seconds out of your day to answer any questions.

[imkingdavid]

This is comical. Ok... (all quotes are zwets)

Is there any reason why you needed to make sure everyone knew he (Adel) was a scumhunting master?

No

Then you were just putting that out there, then? whatever.

Anyway, what was your aim from your post when you said, "as you continue to insist that your "teaching points" were helpful and lucid".

To show a hint of scumminess on IKD's part. After being told several times by several different players of the worthlessness of his post, he continued to insist that everyone else was wrong and that his post was "helpful and lucid".

I actually can't remember ever insisting my post was either of the two. I was trying to be helpful, and while I did insist that my idea about looking for scum buddies was accurate, I never insisted that my post was helpful. And I can't remember ever calling it "lucid" either. I still don't even know for sure what that word means.

Also, I seem to recall asking for people to explain to me why my idea is such a bad one, but the only response I ever got was "You're arrogant; shut up." Can someone please for once and for all explain to me how it can help town for us to look for scum buddies before we know the identity of one of the scum? I understand that even after that there is some level of WIFOM, but there's even more before you know one person. Thanks.

Zwets how does IKD being alive constitute a good reason for his lynch?

It does not.

But you used it as reasoning for a potential lynch of me.

Zwets, from what I can read in your ISO post 6 you stated that IKD was scummy for:
1. insisting teaching points were lucid and helpful
2. he was acting defensively
3. He was acting sarcastically.
Are these the only three reasons you find IKD scummy?

No.

Maybe we should stop asking yes or no questions because that's all you ever say. Since those aren't your only reasons, and I can't seem to find any others,

would you be willing to post them?

(oops that was a question you would just say yes or no to... let's try this) what the heck are they?

Zwets do you plan on explaining your case for IKD and Princess being scum buddies? (this is a more polite way of saying: Explain yourself, now!)

Read my posts. I've done a great job of explaining myself.

Obviously not... if you had, people wouldn't be asking you to explain yourself. Duh.

zwetschenwasser wrote:

purple princess and ikd are obvious scum buddies.

Why?

I've explained.

Like I said, you didn't explain well enough, because people have to ask you to reiterate your thoughts.

Would you care to elaborate on why you think I am scum?

I have.

See the previous two responses.

is this omgus because I voted for you?

Heck no.

do you think anyone is going to belive you when you just write one line on who you think is scum?

I have not.

Most of your posts in this game have been one liners/one sentence (I count it the same; even if a sentence spans more than one line on the screen, it's still one line in my book b/c it's just one sentence). Yes, there are a few (including the one above) that have had more than one sentence, but they are few and far between and usually don't actually say much more than the one liners as far as content goes (aside from word count).

[imkingdavid]

I'm not unwilling to read your posts. I'm just amazed that you're unwilling to answer peoples' questions satisfactorily. Yes, the answer might have already been posted. And one or two questions that you don't answer is fine. But there's a whole list of questions that you finally, but inadequately, answered.

Anyway, I'll read back through your posts to try and find answers to the questions presented against you. However, it would be much faster, since you already know it, for you to just put all of the information here in one post. That way, instead of having to ask again or anything, we can just refer back to the one post (also instead of having to search through a bunch of posts).

Lastly, I'm less willing to spend a portion of my time to read of your day 2 posts because you're unwilling to satisfactorily answer them. If you would sit down and give us some answers when we ask a question (and I'll do the same for you), I'll be less frustrated if I have to look back over posts. It's simple.

[imkingdavid]

Post by Post Analysis of Zwet from Day 2 on (Starting with ISO Post 23).

Ok, so you start the day with a vote on me. Reasoning? "It's obvious what needs to be done here." Eh... no... it's not.
Anyway you expand on your vote, explaining that your reasoning is that I was not killed last night. Wow.
In post 25, you state that you were "positive that dram was scum" so now we should move on to case #2. But wait a minute. Do you remember what dram flipped as? Townie. So if you were positive that he was scum, why should anyone follow you to your next case that is based on me not being killed?
Moving on, post 26 is a blatant refusal to expand on your vote, although post 27 moves on up, stating that I am your only suspect. It seems that your reasonings behind your vote are slowly falling into place. Over a long span of posts. But we'll see.
Post 28 is wonderful: purple and I are obvious scum buddies. Evidence? Nada. I sense a pattern. Maybe you'll explain yourself in the next few posts? ...nope.
Post 29 = too-townie argument.
Post 30, you mention a trap. I still don't understand how that one works, although you keep pointing to it as if it's a brilliant plan-gone-right that paints me as obv-scum.
Post 31 is an attempt to explain post 30, but like I said, it's gibberish to me. You aren't making any sense whatsoever.
Post 32 calls me out for not responding to your case. Eh... I don't see a case yet. I must have gone blind or something, because it's just not there.
Post 33... ahh, here we are. You try to defend your behavior, but then admit (post 34, 35) that we can't prove that it's your play style anyway. So you could be lying for all we know. Why bring it up?
36 tries to direct me to your case on the previous page. I still don't see it. Or anything that remotely resembles a case.
37 More about your elusive playstyle.

Ah, 38. It's when you say that my day 1 actions are nothing to you. Yeah right. It's the basis of your vote on me; In your earlier post before your "trap" you state that I am your only suspect/I am the most scummy to you. But you have nothing but day 1 to base it on by that point. So no, day 1 actions obviously aren't null to you.

39 you try to say that Too-TOwnie is a scum tell.
In 40, it becomes clear that we must be talking about two different things.
41: "Yes I could be scum or town"... that applies to every single other living person in this game. "I've shown how likely it is for IKD to be scum"...eh, no I still don't see it.

43... blame me of ignoring your questions. Which I don't see. Plus, it's obvious hypocrisy here, as you clearly ignored multiple peoples' questions for multiple posts, even pages.
44... "I have answered everything..." eh, no. No you haven't. Well, currently you have, but not by post 44 when you claimed to have.
45 - apparently I'm twisting actions to suit my argument. I don't get it.
46 - false statement.
47-49 - nothing important
50 - you try to feign ignorance saying that you don't understand the questions. uh uh... we already reposted the questions once or twice. If you didn't understand a question, ask for clarification. Don't just ignore it.
51 - same.
52 - unimportant
53 - ... you spent hours coming up with that? Well, your one-sentence, poorly explained posts containing your bs theories don't show it.
54 - and here are your unsatisfactory answers to our questions (aka you basically just said yes and no without explaining... as per the pattern).
55 - accuse me of not being willing to put time and thought into the game... hypocrite.
56 - more reasoning behind not adequately posting answers to our questions. Btw, "several pages" of a case? nah, I don't see it.

There. I just went over your day two posts. I don't see a case. I don't see an active, scumhunting zwet. Explain yourself in more than two lines.

[imkingdavid]

I still feel a little suspicious of IKD when posting in day one he came across as very arrogant but was given a second chance and he has changed the way he is posting, I have the slight feeling that maybe he was chosen as scum for the first time in this game and was unsure how to react so this is why he started posting his "teaching points" and maybe he thought people would think "hey he sounds too nice to be scum!"

Actually, in my first game I was scum. It's finished so we can reference it. Newbie 802 if you're wondering.

[imkingdavid]

Bold added by me.

There. I just went over your day two posts.

I don't see a case.

I don't see an active, scumhunting zwet. Explain yourself in more than two lines.

This is true,

but I think my case on IKD at least is substantial.

...?

[imkingdavid]

You sir, are BLIND.

...Ok.

I'm going to move on from this. You're not going to ever post a case, and I have no clue what you're talking about until you do. And repeating ourselves endlessly does nothing in any effort to find scum.

So give me some time to look at HF vs. Cird and let me see what I come up with.

[imkingdavid]

I am not the cop. I don't see what's so hard to understand about all the scummy things IKD has done, which I have pointed out one by one is at least six of my day 2 posts (this does not include my first couple posts, as explained by my case post).

So now there's a case post? Golly gee, I didn't see that on my post by post analysis.And before you ask, yes--I am blind. Would you mind linking to it? Thanks. Maybe by then I'll have found a decent pair of glasses.

@IKD...what do you mean HF vs Cird?

You two seem to have been going at it for a while. I was just saying that I am going to take some time to look at your discussion. I must admit that I overlooked a lot of it since zwet's been going at me for no reason.

[imkingdavid]

damn... I really shouldn't have joined three games. You know you're in over your head when you start mixing up people's names. That shows how active I've been in this game. Sorry. Not cird vs HF, CP vs HF. That also shows that I haven't had a chance to go back and look like I said I would. But I will later today.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP: hit sumbit too soon.

Anyway, @ PP: you do realize that deadline is on the 5... that's two more days. Why in such a hurry? A lot can be said in two days.

Actually,

@ Vel: on the first post, you say deadline is End of Sunday Sept 5. But the 5th is a Saturday. So is deadline on Sunday or Saturday?

[imkingdavid]

[side-note]...I think zwet is physically incapable of writing a post that is longer than one line. Dude... next time condense it all into one or two posts... I would rather read a couple long ones than a ton of short ones.[/side-note]

Anyway, I have already responded to your posts in my post-by-post analysis. I was sort of hoping you would actually make a case, rather than just repeat yourself. Your "case" is pretty much a bunch of baseless accusations all put together. I fail to see the logic behind it.

[imkingdavid]

Good game MZC and CP.

Sidenote: The reason I dropped out when I did is because I was in three games at the same time. When I initially joined all three, it was during summer and I had nothing else to do. Then marching band came along, which took some of my time but it was still bearable. But I had to get out of at least one before school started because I would have been overwhelmed. So I chose the game that I was least happy with. Sorry it had to be this one, but I was (and am) enjoying my other two more.

@ Ray

: Sorry for being such a difficult person to replace for. I pretty much dug my own grave and then put you in it.

Anyway, I want to say up front.

I'm sorry.

I totally screwed up the game for the town. When I came in, I seriously was not trying to sound arrogant or anything. I was trying my best to be helpful, and I guess it came across as arrogant. I think I toned it down for my other two current games some. When Adel started tunneling me and wouldn't let go I got sort of frustrated and sort of shot off at him. And then I posted the long apology posts, which at least might have been helpful for keeping me in as far as I stayed in.
I was so positive that Adel was scum because of his tunneling that it did pull attention away from all other people (such as the ones that needed to be looked at, like CP).

Anyway, mzc I almost yelled at my computer when I saw this post by you because I had just replaced out and couldn't say anything (not that anyone would have believed me, and princess's vote sealed Ray's fate):

Well I'm surprised. What I see here is very interesting. If both Ray and Princess were town then it would only stand to reason that the two scum would jump on her vote to complete the lynch and secure the victory. What this says to me is that one of the two has got to be scum.

Cird and CP do you get the same feeling?

I don't know what it is about it, but as soon as I saw it, I knew for a fact that you were scum. Maybe it was because "one of the two has got to be scum". If you don't leave room for other possibilities, that doesn't help town.

Anyway, as I said in one of my posts before, I hope my play in this game doesn't tarnish your thoughts about me for future games. I hope to play with any one of you guys (yeah, even Adel if he comes back) in a later game.

Although I'm definitely not joining 3 games at the same time.

Anyway, I'm rambling

tl;dr version:

Good job scum. My bad, town.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP:

And mzc, yeah you got your revenge. Now we're even. Nice game.

[imkingdavid]

@zwet: any comments? How does it feel to know that 0 of your suspects were scum (myself, dram, and purple)?

[imkingdavid]

speaking of which, the game's been over since the 9th. It's been three days. Where the heck is Vel?