Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

I am one of your ICs. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be as helpful as I can.

[VP Baltar]

Porkens replaces SensFan

Vote Porkens

hater

[VP Baltar]

Is there a easy way you keep track of the topic?

Yep, there is. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of any page in this thread you should see a link in the left cornor that says "Watch this topic". Once you click on it, the thread will automatically appear in your watched topics folder, which is the first link at the top of the page.

What I like to do, however, is set my options in my profile to automatically add any threads I post in to my watched topics list. You can always delete them later.

I think you keep notes from this thread, what are the points you write down and basically what is important enough to note. And basically how do you find mafia, what is the best way according to you?

I think I kept notes in my first couple of games, but I don't anymore simply because it consumes a lot of time for me personally. I would definitely advocate it if you have the time, but I also think the more you play, the less necessary it becomes.

Occasionally I might keep sporadic notes if a game is getting complex or I need to leave myself reminders. What I usually write down are things that stand out to me as really scummy (apparent contradictions with an earlier point, potential connections between players and possible (or confirmed) scum, etc.). If you really want to get OCD, creating a spreadsheet to document people's voting patterns can be

very

useful later in the game.

For me personally, the best way to find scum is to just keep asking questions to people you find are behaving suspiciously. The more a potential-mafia member says, the better chances you have of catching them slipping up or revealing motives that would better serve the mafia than the town. Some players on the site are very good at hiding this, which is why it is important to keep them talking. The key to this, however, is knowing when to let go of something and realize that the person may be town. Looking at things objectively is pretty important. I say be forceful with your accusations, but be willing to accept an answer as true if it makes logical sense from a town perspective.

Out of curiosity, why did you think I take notes? Have you seen me play before? Also, what is your experience with mafia? You seem to be active in getting us out of the RVS, which is a good thing.

[VP Baltar]

I generally ignore who's IC and who isn't. I don't ~think~ there's any rhyme or reason to the role distribution. That is to say; if one IC is scum the other wont be (I'm not 100% sure on that fact, though) so as scum I might NK an IC or I might not, it would depend on the IC and the game.

It's my understanding that the roles are completely randomly distributed, even in newbie games. Therefore, there would still be a possibility of both ICs being scum even though it is statistically unlikely.

My advice to any newbies is that

every

player should be considered a potential suspect. Just look for scummy behaviour, be it from an IC, SC or complete noob.

[VP Baltar]

Do you think Einlanzer deserves a serious vote from you Clara? Why or why not?

[VP Baltar]

And that my friends is called posting in the wrong game.

[VP Baltar]

I actually think the Einlanzers wagon is moving a bit quickly. I need to read over again, but he is coming off very noobish (ie voting No lynch) and is reading as town with his overdefensiveness.

[VP Baltar]

I will let your attackers step in here and say their bit before I explain why No Lynch on Day 1 is a bad thing.

Your reasons for voting jammer seemed to be based entirely on the fact that he voted you, Ein, and likely has very little to do with him being "overly talkative" (which isn't a great reason to vote either). I know sometimes it's not fun to be attacked in this game, but it is something you have to deal with. It's not mean of a player to vote you. It's just part off the game and I wouldn't take it personally.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

Because Porkens got me killed in another game and was giving him a joking vengence vote. Why would a random vote on an IC be suspect to you is a better question.

I need to catch up and make some comments in this game, which I will do sometime today.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I just lost a post I spent an hour working on...so now I'm frakking pissed off. Trying to salvage my thoughts. This is going to be stream of consciousness from stuff I didn't have time to comment on this week (beginning around page 2):

Einlanzers Post 33 rings strong of noobishness to me.

I really don't like El Lupo Loco in Post 42. The game was quickly transitioning out of the RVS and he had two people vote him for unstated reasons. To me, this would be something that a town player would ask about or even strike back as being suspicious. Instead, ELL plays it off with a non-chalant joke. To me this looks like an attempt at 'ignore it and it will go away'.

Right now he seems like a likely candidate, mostly because he seemed to get overly defensive for only one vote on him. The NL vote was odd, but not outright scummy behavior, his sarcasm and defensiveness towards Jammer after the question was poised seems off to me.

Sarcasm is not a scumtell. Lots of players (myself included) can be sarcastic as town or scum. Also, as someone who has some experience with mafia, do you think there is a possibility that ein is just completely inexperienced and doesn't understand what I would call the 'protocal' of mafia?

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not.

This makes no sense. You say he has good reason to vote you, but is scum because he does.

And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

I don't like this sentence either. Just because you are town does not make every person who votes you scum, plus trying to point to you being town sounds a bit forced.

Vote: Cartza

This is ridiculous. You have nothing else to say?

~~~~We interrupt this wall post for an IC moment~~~~
This is the chainsaw defense that Porkens was referring to. It was developed by Tarhalindur. There is another chainsaw defense, which is what would come up if you just searched in the wiki. The mafiawiki is a great place to go if you hear something you aren't sure of what it is when you are playing in your other games. The information there is constantly being updated, and it can be crucial to understanding the game when you get into more complex set-ups.
~~~~Now back to our regularly scheduled programming~~~~

re: No Lynch on Day 1: It is a bad play because a no lynch garners no information for the town to use on Day 2. Even if we mislynch someone on Day 1 (which happens quite often), the town is able to see who was on that lynch and their reasons for being on it. Often times you will find scum jumping on a mislynch for suspicious reasons. If you no lynch, you cannot see this and it is like starting another Day 1 on Day 2.

@Lupo, what are we betting?

This is a filler post and looks like active lurking.

Einlanzers Post 71 does indeed look like town appeasement and a bit of appeal to emotion with his "give me a break" comment.

Not planning to give anyone a break, no matter how new they are.

Be careful about this. Tunneling can very often lead to a mislynch (trust me, I've done it plenty). If you honestly feel that someone is just making noob mistakes, then you should disregard those points as being just that and explain what the problem with the statement is.

Thoughts jammer?

Why ask jammer specifically if he thought it was an AtE?

I see it, and I don't like it. I don't find appeals to emotion to be particularly town-friendly, and it's trying to deflect from logic. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

I don't like this really. Actually your whole interaction with the einlanzers case comes off as sheeping along to me. He's the only person you've actively commented on in this game and that is only after other people make comments and you go "I agree!".

Unvote, Vote Claramata

VP Baltar, are you going to include your suspicions in your reread post?

Why, yes. Yes I did.

And why do you ask it to porkens and me. Why not Carla? Or the other players?

Because you two were leading the ein charge pretty hard and hadn't stated any other suspects. Tunneling=not pro-town. I suggest you broaden your horizons because if you're wrong the scum can just sit back and let you lead a mislynch and take the credit for it on Day 2.

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

How about some posts with more content? One-liners every once in awhile that you don't really follow up on could be seen as active lurking. However, I do think your question to Lupo is good and needs to be answered post haste.

*knocks on computer screen*
Hey, El Lupo Loco, you missed this a couple times now. I expect an answer in your next post:

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

If ein was your partner, how would you react on these posts?

If you where mafia, how would you act and response in the day?

These are both loaded questions. Loaded questions=scummy.

~~~~~
Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

El Lupo Loco is looking pretty suspicious for the way he is avoiding taking an active role in the game, but is still posting pretty regularly. His vote on jammer for "trying to control discussion" or whatever is crap. If you think someone is controlling the game, then post more and take control.

Clara is the most scummy to me, however, for her sheeping along on einlanzers. She has at least some experience with mafia and I would expect her to be able to scumhunt on her own without being led around by jammer.

[VP Baltar]

His ulterior motive is revenge then? Ultimately, his vote is rather a joking vote as opposed to a random vote and I am not as suspicious it now.

So you would have been suspicious if I "random" voted Porkens? Why? (Even though there really isn't such a thing as a random vote unless your roll a die or something)

) VP Baltar, why do you come to this conclusion?

Because we are still very very early in the game and have no reason to be putting someone in lynching range unless we are certain they are scum. I know I am not certain ein is scum, and I feel a lot more can be discussed before we move toward a lynch. Why are you in a hurry to get him to claim and possibly lynch him?

I would like to hear your case against me Santos, since I am in your top three of suspects.

7) Ein is OMGUS, right?
8) This seems indicative of a scum-tell. Turning the attention on himself to someone else. Does anyone agree?

Why are you asking for other people to back up your suspicions?

The only downside is what VP brought up in he could be newbtown by voting No lynch.

I'll enlighten you to another downside: we're on page 4 and are over 2 weeks away from deadline. Again, why are you in such a hurry? If you're suspicious of ELL and myself, wouldn't you want to spend some time questioning us?

[VP Baltar]

So why vote her? Do you have questions for her since you think she is the most scummy? She has already stated as to why Ein is scummy. Could it be an early bus on her scum partner?

Why not vote her? I find her actions genuinely scummy. I would expect her to respond to my accusations of her sheeping along without me needing to state direct questions, but if you need it phrased as question I would put it as this:

Clara, why have you focused solely on ein and not brought any original ideas to the table even though you have experience scumhunting and would know how to do this?

re: bussing--meh, didn't really come across to me like that. Could be, but I guess we would know after one of them flips.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, I was being humorous with my Porkens vote.

Because the evidence towards him is not looking good. It looks scummy. If he wants retribution, then he should do something in his favor so he is not lynched today.

Ok, it looks scummy, but does that mean you shouldn't really give him a chance at redeeming himself? Why do you want him to claim so far ahead of deadline? Right now it would be very easy for scum to come in and hammer him if he's town and end the day.

I'm not advocating lynching Ein today, am I? Where did I say that? I know I asked for a claim, but I don't recall saying 'I want to lynch Ein today'. The best thing we can do today is get a several suspects on the table and then decide collectively as to who we all agree should go to the rope today.

Putting someone at L-1

is

the same as saying you support their lynch. I've just explained above how easy it would be for scum to come in and kill him. You have facilitated this by putting him at L-1.

Also, are you proposing that we get multiple people to claim today before we make our lynch decision?

have a case against you? I asked you why you voted Porkens, but don't think I had an actual case. Why are you saying that I have placed you in my 'top 3' suspects? Did I say that?

Yes, you listed me as one of the three people you were and/or are suspicious of today.

Who do you suspect?

Lupo and VP Baltar to begin with, but Ein has surely turned into suspect #1 now.

I am asking for what other people think because if they agree or do not agree I can then ask them questions about their thoughts.

Not really. You asked "right?" and "does anyone agree?", which looks like you are trying to get people to back you up. If you wanted someone's opinion on the matter you would have asked specific people and said something like "do you agree or disagree with this?"

[VP Baltar]

Exactly. They could hammer him, but then that would give me the satisfaction of knowing they are the scum because it was noted that he was at lynch minus 1 and that no other vote is warranted because we need him to claim due to his scummy performance.

Or you could just unvote him for now until town comes to a consensus, and thus we wouldn't be in danger of an unnecessary mislynch that people could claim was accidental. You can always vote him again later.

I thought getting at least 1, if not 2 people to claim on Day 1 is perfect way to start? How would this be bad? Well, for one the doctor or cop could be the one we picked on, but the fact that Ein put himself out there like that is his own fault. We cannot ignore the evidence that started this lynch in the first place.

You point out the flaw in your own plan here. Getting multiple people to claim day one is a really bad move. Outing potential powerroles on D1 is real trouble. Yes, I think the person who would be a lynch for the day should claim, but I don't think a rapidly built wagon without first considering other options should claim. It's too early in the day to be forcing something like that and it could be potentially disaterous.

I'm not sure where I listed you three anywhere

I just quoted where you mentioned it. How are you not seeing that? I would still like you to state exactly what genuine scummy behavior I had done that made you suspicious of me.

Once again, this must be a collaborative effort, VP. If what I present in who I find scummy is backed up by others, then we definitely have something to discuss. If my thoughts are shot down or called unsubstantial, then I will have to drop it and find something else to work on.

Ok, this actually strikes me a bit as backtracking. Above you said that you were asking these types of questions so you could gauge people's opinions, which I interpreted to mean that you were trying to find out peoples' opinions in relation to einlanzers. Now you are saying you were in fact trying to see if someone would back the points you were making. I don't like that at all.

Ein is a good lynch. Vote for him now (hammer) and be a hero to the town.

No. I know what you're trying to do here Porkens, and I don't think it would work out the way you think it would.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, why aren't you voting for Santos?

Because I'd rather be voting for clara right now. Are you concerned with my vote being there? Also, why don't you give some comments on what Santos and I have been discussing?

Happy Scumday!

[VP Baltar]

You state that everything that he said is according to being new? There are no scum-tells that can't be soluted without being new?

I said that everything should be disregarded as him being new? Please quote me where I said that. Also, while you are looking for that quote you can look at my wall post and see where I point out the things that I think are genuinely scummy from him.

VP,
For Einzal you say that being new with mafia explains his scumminess, how does being new affect lupo according to you?

It's a factor for sure, as it always is when I play with new people, but Lupo seems more calculated in his actions and what he says (or doesn't say) in his posts. Ein is more like a VI than anything.

Cartza: Where is he?
jonnydelawelsh: Where is he?

Mod, please prod these players with extreme prejudice

re: Santos and the claiming issue---another issue is that even if you don't direcly out the PRs, getting multiple people to claim narrows down the pool of suspects for scum to go after at night and potentially kill a PR.

I don't mind a PR claiming somewhat early in a newbie game because generally there are not going to be that many days if NKs go through (I think 4 or so), and so claiming for the PR should happen before they are killed. However, getting them to claim or putting them in danger on day one is very poor form.

[VP Baltar]

What quotes are actually scummy according to you and what are due to being new. Could you elaborate?

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not.

This makes no sense. You say he has good reason to vote you, but is scum because he does.

And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

I don't like this sentence either. Just because you are town does not make every person who votes you scum, plus trying to point to you being town sounds a bit forced.

These two things stick out to me as the scummiest things he has said all game. What I think is coming off noobish about him in particular is his vote for NL early that started the whole pursuit of him. That move shows pretty clearly that he doesn't have much experience with mafia. Also, the way he is going after cases just seems like someone to me who isn't thinking thoroughly rather than someone who has scummy intentions of getting a mislynch.

Of course, it is still very possible that he is noob-scum and is just continually tripping over his keyboard, but on a gut level I don't think that is the case.

If you see Ein as being a VI, are you then thinking mafia is actively building a case to get him lynched?

If I work under the premise that ein is town, then yes, I think there are members of the mafia trying to get him lynched. Right now I'm feeling you are town. I'm a bit suspicious of Porkens' unwillingness to let it go or actively look at other suspects. I would think as a more experienced player he might be saying the same thing I am, but he seems awfully content with the ein lynch in short order. I've already pointed out that I think Clara is the scummiest person on that wagon.

I think this discussion over ein is getting to a point where he needs to come in and speak for himself and who his suspicions are. I'm not going to sit here all day and defend the guy while he lurks.

And lupo doesn't say much usefull, or is that also where you're pointing at?(active lurking)

Yes that is my point. He pops in occasionally and posts things, but they are never of substance. He has also willfully avoided Santos' questions for quite some time now.

[VP Baltar]

If Ein was a cop or a doctor, then he should have been more conservative in his random vote for a no lynch as well as the OMGUS he sent to jammer.

Outing a PR on D1 equals very bad for town, it doesn't matter who's to blame for it. I'm not entirely against him claiming, but I think there are other avenues we need to explore before we worry about that. We are a long way from deadline right now. Example: Clara

How are we to trust him anymore unless he gives us a claim?

And how are you to trust him if he claims now? He could simply, you know, lie about it.

It's not out of the question to have him claim today, but it is very important to consider alternatives because there are many ways to lynch scum on day one that don't involve outing PRs.

[VP Baltar]

You're not lynched Einlanzers. I'm actually arguing against it, but you're not helping by being pouty and saying you want to quit. I know it's not fun when everyone's on your case, but that's part of the game. All you can do is answer questions and state who you find suspicious and why.

Sometimes you get lynched for bad reasons or because you say something that came out wrong. It just happened to me in a game I was in with Porkens. You just can't take it personally and have to keep playing the game as best as you can.

Do you find anyone apart from jammer and johnny scummy? If so, why?

[VP Baltar]

More votes on Clara plz.

[VP Baltar]

*waves* Hi, Chiarosicada

Glad to see I'm not alone in my thought process.

This seems a little like the 'cut me some slack' post from Ein.

Yes, exactly! One of her main points against Ein is his appealing to emotion, but that is the first thing she does when I start questioning her.

What do you think of Santos?

I'm not ready to reveal those cards just yet. Soon perhaps.

Just a question in between, is the activity low for a average?

I would say this game is pretty average for a newbie game. Even for a non-newbie game this might be considered average, but that is probably because there are some fairly active people here. I personally like it if everyone can make one decent content post per day, but that doesn't usually happen. You will always have a handful of people who are lurking, be it because they are new or because that is their style. The tricky part is being able to tell when someone is just lurking because they are not here or are lurking because they are scum that doesn't want to get caught.

Porkens, I too want to hear if you're still gung ho about the Ein lynch and also what you think of Clara.

[VP Baltar]

See, einlanzers, it's not so bad once you just take time to think about the situation and get involved. Glad to see you are ready play. I'll remove my VI stamp on you now.

It seems strange to me if you come in midtime and you have to defend actions of someone else, and depending on something where you had no control on. How do you handle situations like that? Seems strange to me to be being confronted with playing style you had nothing to do with.

It depends on the situation. Most of the time a replacement is not expeceted to necessarily "defend" the actions of the predecessor because there is really no way the could know what the person was thinking. However, I will give you a tip for catching scum: if a player replaces a scummy looking player and continues to act scummy, it is very likely they are in fact scum. Moral of the story is just take people at their actions. The predecessors actions should be in your mind, but might not be the main factor in determining if the person is scummy or not.

[VP Baltar]

I'm confused einlanzers you say:

I now think Clara is less scummy-looking because she was merely reacting to the strange way I was acting and jumped on board.

And yet she is your top suspect. Please explain this.

Also, just for future reference, you don't have to post like that to see someone's posts in isolation. All you have to do is go to the bottom of the page, and just below the 'Submit' button is a pull down menu with the name of every player who has posted in this game. Just select the player you would like to look at in isolation and click go and you will be redirected to just their posts. It's a very useful feature when you what to review a player or look for something specific. You can also search for posts by time period and change their order from oldest to newest.

[VP Baltar]

So the better question then, was why were you not voting Santos?

[VP Baltar]

@VP Baltar:
You've been defending me pretty much this entire game. I highly doubt that you are scum as it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for scum to protect a towny and take the chance of him (or his partner) getting lynched instead. But then again maybe you're so smart that you assumed we would think that, so we wouldn't assume you as mafia. What do you think?

Don't assume I'm town just because I defended you. Scum could very easily defend someone they know to be town just to form an unspoken alliance with that player.

Look at it this way, even though I think the wagon against you wasn't a good one and it is likely you are town, I don't assume you to be 100% town and if you do something I think is genuinely scummy I will push for your lynch. You should do the same when you look at me. If you see me do something scummy, then question me, and if you don't like my answers, try to get me lynched.

If somebody isn't confirmed town (say by a cop investigation or something like that) then you should always look for actions from them that could be potentially scummy.

[VP Baltar]

You mean how often town wins vs. scum wins?

I don't know if there are publish stats on this specific setup. It's probably largely dependent up on the capability of the players involved. Not to mention that we don't even know what the setup is at this point, so that might also affect the outcome.

[VP Baltar]

Santos, do you still think ein would be a good lynch choice today?

[VP Baltar]

welcome aboard hurleys_van

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Santos

Your complete lack of a response to someone making a case against you is indicative of scum trying to non-chalantly ignore pressure.

Hurley, while I'm glad you're being active in the game, your guess at an Ein/Porkens scum pair leaves a lot to be desired. You're gonna have to elaborate if you expect me to buy that.

[VP Baltar]

I guess VP hasn't seen Lost. Hurley

Oh I've seen it. I've also seen your complete lack of response to the case made on you in three posts now. Very comfortable with you dying.

[VP Baltar]

Who are you speaking to there Santos?

[VP Baltar]

Santos, you need to point directly to the questions you think HH can answer. It is very difficult for a replacement to be able to understand the actions of the person they are replacing. If there is something you think he is capable of answering for, then dig it up and quote it for him to see. Also, regardless of that, you need to answer the case he made against you because not doing so, as you said, look suspicious.

Porkens needs to post.

[VP Baltar]

Well, Clara hasn't posted on the site for about 4 days now, so I'm guessing she might need to be replaced.

[VP Baltar]

No prob, Porkens. Ok, I'm actually pretty good with the Santos lynch if he's not going to reply to the case. If anyone disagrees, now is the time to speak. Perhaps we could hear from some of the people who haven't spoken in awhile.

[VP Baltar]

Santos is kind of fishy for his push on Ein to claim. What if he's a power role?

This is ridiculous. You were on the wagon and had no problem at all with it happening, saying otherwise now is scummy. I was saying that you guys were moving way too fast and he shouldn't claim and nobody at all backed me up.

Also your suspicions in your last two posts show more of the sheeping along I voted you for before. Do you have any ideas of your own?

I would lynch either Santos or Clara right now.

@HV a player should claim before they are lynched. Just because they claim does not mean that the town should not follow through with the lynch, but lynching an unclaimed player could be very disastrous.

[VP Baltar]

Santos, this is an unnecessary distraction. He cannot explain what El Lupo Loco was thinking because he is not him.

Please respond to HH case.

Also explain whether or not you think ein claiming was a good idea now that you got your way.

Who do you think should be the lynch today and why?

[VP Baltar]

Lupo talked the talk, but did not walk the walk. This condemns the replacement. The replacement has made no attempt at redeeming himself, hence, my frustration with why he gets to slide by due to a technicality.

Nobody said he is being allowed to "slide". However, your characterization of him being condemned due to his predecessor sounds to me like scum trying to get out of a lynch. My vote stays for now.

I'll respond to what I need to from your post soon.

[VP Baltar]

You just said in that quote that you thought he was getting to "slide by due to a technicality".

[VP Baltar]

Scum team^

Notice how HV can't give opinions on Santos one way or the other, that he's still "on the fence". If we lynch Santos and he flips scum, that is pretty much the game right there.

[VP Baltar]

@VP, the recent budying up, HV having no opinion about Santos and they both vote Porkens strikes you as them being a pair.
Do you think a Santos/Clara or Porkens/Clara pairing is likely?

Anything is possible really. I would need to look back at their interactions with one another to get a good feel, but really what we should do at this moment is that you should put your vote back on Santos and he needs to claim (as much as I hate to have two claims on D1). I think lynching Santos and finding out his alignment will give us the most information on D2.

[VP Baltar]

Santos, claim now please.

[VP Baltar]

And, after a quick check of the last couple pages, altrough I agree with some suspicions, am I the only one that thinks this wagon came up fast and without (much) talking of Chia, Clara and Ein?

I don't feel it came on quick per se. Definitely has grounding. Also, are you trying to imply that you think both scum are in that group of players?

[VP Baltar]

Happy scumday, Chiar!

I'll bring some content later.

[VP Baltar]

I believe the wagons on both Santos and Ein were (are) scum-driven. Nevertheless, he is scummy, and lynching him on the basis of scumminess (rather than information) alone is acceptable to me, though I would prefer the aforementioned two.

I highly doubt Ein is getting lynched today, but I would be okay with his lynch too. I believe he'd flip town, but I am more sure that his wagon was scum-driven than Santos' is, and that this would provide the most information out of the four.

I'm not sure if I like these sentences here you say you'd be good with either of their lynches, but regarding the Santos lynch you say that you would "prefer the aforementioned two".

That on it's own is ok, but what bothers me is that you seem to be more ok with the Ein lynch even though you "believe he'd flip town". That is ludicrous. You should never want to lynch someone who you believe would flip town. Why is this even an option? Doesn't the Santos lynch give us roughly the same information while still having a much higher likelihood of hitting scum?

re: Porkens--for better or for worse he does have a bit of a meta for playing like this from what I've seen. I'm not defending his actions because I think he should be taking a more active role in this game given his place as an IC, but I just completed my first game with him and he lurked a ton in that game. Even though he lurked, however, he was still pretty effective at finding scum. I suggest people glance over some of his games before judging him based solely on that point.

@Clara, you followed and supported the lynch on Ein without adding much. And you found Santos fishy after his behaviour was pointed out by others.

Who do you think is the best lynch today?

This

[VP Baltar]

VP: Et Tu?! Don't meta defend me scum!

No problem. Answer the points put to you.

[VP Baltar]

Now now let's not get catty.

Meow.

Haven't I?

Not really. You made an OMGUS reply to Chiar on this page and I don't believe you ever really took on what Santos said about you.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, I'm just trying to be fair in my questioning. Nothing has changed me wanting Santos dead at this point. It's pretty obvious what my stance on your vote swapping is, but perhaps you could put a little bit of an effort into answering their posts. Things like quoting and explaining reasoning further are always good.

[VP Baltar]

Are you covering up for him? You're awful nice to all the other players today by practically letting them get away with murder, but the moment I try to stand behind my advocations to who is scum, I'm given a slap on the wrist and a noose around my neck! What gives with you, Mr. IC?

Eh. The Eins lynch was bogus to begin with, imo. I would almost guarantee that at least one if not both of the scum were on that wagon. You and Clara stuck out to me as the scummiest of those persons. As far as Porkens goes, I would say I have a null read on him right now, so until I get a better feeling one way or another I think there are better cases out there.

Furthermore, you reasoning for not responding to the case put to you because you wanted Lupo answers was very scummy. It looked like you were stalling for time or were trying to divert attention toward HH. I was indeed suspicious of Lupo's posting, but HH has come off fairly town in his posts.

Then there is Hurley's suspicious porkens vote, being slightly questioned and quick flip to voting for you. Could be noob scum bussing very poorly (I bussed quite weakly in my first game here). Add to that he has gone UTR since that incident, and you basically have why I think your lynch will be a good idea.

If we are right and you flip scum, then yay for us. If you flip town, we still gain lots of information judging from people's reactions to your wagon, and for those on it, why they joined the wagon.

[VP Baltar]

I don't get the same information in terms of relationships from a Clara flip that I do from yours. And I'm not waiting for anything, I can't vote you any more than I already am.

There is nothing to get mad about. In the chance that you flip town, you can still win the game if the town wins you know.

[VP Baltar]

Under The Radar. Also, most of the time you shouldn't vote just because you think it is what the town wants you to do. It looks more suspicious than just voting for who you think is the most scummy. Occasionally there will be times when you have to compromise on this point to ensure that a lynch goes through before deadline. Regardless, I think Santos lynch is where it's at for D1 here.

[VP Baltar]

I find this a bit hippocritical. Not too far back you were yelling at someone for voting against me even though they thought I'd "flip town" and yet you say pretty much the same thing here. What gives?

I don't think he'll flip town, that's the difference. Even if I'm fairly certain he'll flip scum, that doesn't mean the possibility doesn't exist that he'll come up town. Mislynches happen all the time in this game, and I don't claim to know who's on what side, but I was pointing out that lynching Santos still at least has some sort of upside even if he turns town.

Futhermore VP Baltar is going a bit up on my list aswell. This is the second time he snaps his fingers and someone changes their vote. Not to mention he hasn't voted the entire game until now when a large bandwagon is forming. Seems a little scummy to me.

I have no control over who flips their vote and when. If anything this would reflect badly on the person flipping their vote, not me. And you should actually do your research regarding your second point, I've had my vote out on someone since the game started.

[VP Baltar]

heh, trust me Santos, it takes a special kind of person to get me flaming them and you're not it.

Jammer made a nice catch there. I think I know who the scum is on your wagon (ie, the person bussing you), but I think I'll save those conclusions for later.

Also, why do you want to be hammered so bad? Trying to end discussion quickly?

[VP Baltar]

I still think it's a crock that you can talk about lynching town whilst lecturing about not doing it. Sure you think he's mafia, but that's not guaranteed, and by my guesstimations he's only like 50% likely to be scum right now. That's generally not a chance I'm willing to take.

Please quote me where I said he was more likely to flip town than scum. If you can do that, then you have a point. As far as your 50% goes, I take that to mean you think he has done just as many scummy things as town things, correct?

mod: what is the status on some of these lurkers. does anyone need to be prodded or replaced?

[VP Baltar]

You realize that no matter how good you think your read on somebody is, they do have the chance of flipping town, correct? I don't get what your point is. Are you saying it's scummy to consider what the situation will look like if he does happen to flip town?

[VP Baltar]

his reluctance to give solid reasons as to why the cases on Porkens arn't worth his attention.

So you think porkens and I are likely scum together?

[VP Baltar]

Loaded question! Because the game would be unfair casting both ICs as scum. You should know better than to ask a silly question like that :p

^Further evidence why I think you and HV are the likely scum team. It wasn't a loaded question at all, nor was it silly. Role assignment is random, and both ICs very much could be scum. There was no need for you to step in here and answer for him.

[VP Baltar]

why am I not dead? If I do die, what the hell are the reasons?

I deserve some explanation.

Read the thread and you'd know the reasons against you. People don't need to restate them for your sake.

I guess I'm the only one whose entirely afraid of how your posting ability has digressed from Day 1 til now.

It's still day 1. I really have nothing more to say about your case and I'm simply waiting for people to grow a pair and finish you off. Your flailing about is quite indicative of scum fretting about their own lynch.

HV insinuated that both Porkens and I were acting scummy, so I asked him for clarification if he thought we were scum together. That is not by definition a loaded question. The example you gave is an actual loaded question because it assumes an answer. Mine did not.

I think I've grown tired of your squirming and it's time to lean on you a bit more.

Jammer, why are you not voting Santos? You've stated your intentions many times and yet no vote for him.

Chiar, do you really think that Porkens minimal playstyle is more scummy than Santos' immediate push for a claim on day 1, even though he stated he didn't much care if Ein was town or scum? Do you think a Santos lynch would give us strong insight into HV?

Santos, what were your motivations for stepping in on that last question and answering for HV, even though you find his voting patterns somewhat suspicious? Are you glad that you pushed Ein to claim so early in the day? What do you think of Ein's posting of recent and lack of voting?

[VP Baltar]

But as he is now at L-2, and every time you ask someone about their votes they change it. I don't want to stop that pattern.

heh. My jedi mind trick do work! good boy.

while everyone else at least had a legitimate reason to put a vote on him.

Wrong.

You cast your suspicions on several players, but only choose one person to single out and follow a vote party that you know will be an easy lynch today.

Casting suspicions on several players is called scumhunting, and what makes you such an easy lynch? You didn't seem to have a problem with easy lynches when it was pointed at eins.

You ask for others' help in hoping they will drop the hammer today even though they are seemingly not comfortable with a lynch yet, especially considering we still have 6 days before deadline.

Please provide quotes where I said I was uncomfortable with your lynch. Also, which way do you want it? First you argue that I'm not pursuing you aggressively enough, now you are saying I'm rushing your lynch? Pick a side please.

4) The Ein vote party was a complete rush (which you were against) and my vote party couldn't arrive sooner for your taste...and now you're begging players with questions hoping their answers will give you collateral to use against them for not having the balls to lynch me.

Is that what I'm doing? Thanks for the information.

5) You've been against a 'townie lynch,' but certainly advocate another 'townie lynch'

Here's the difference: ein wasn't really acting scummy. You most definitely were and continue to.

L-1, who would like to hammer?

[VP Baltar]

Candy rots your teeth. Santos wagon has strippers.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I think Clara would need to explain her reasons for voting one over the other. If she just auto-hammers without explaining herself then she's probably scum.

Also, the Porkens wagon is made of fail as of this point and is likely scum trying to get rid of one IC (and then likely try to kill me tonight). I strongly advise against it. He has acted scummy for sure, but Santos has done so much more. Look at the facts and use your head folks.

[VP Baltar]

@VP
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not "going after" Porkens because of his IC status. Also if Porkens were to post an actual reply and explain his actions and his feelings for each player it may quell me enough to pull my vote, but as of now I feel that Porkens is lurking an awful lot and only posting to vote :/.

Your defensiveness to a broad accusation is noted.

[VP Baltar]

Please explain why you think Ein's response is notable, because his is similar to one I might have given.

Because I was merely stating my opinion of the wagon and to immediately respond as if it were directed toward him implies that he could potentially have a guilty conscience.

@VP
Why is the Santos wagon sooooo much better then the Porkens one my good sir?

Because the Santos wagon is built upon very clear actions that he has taken in this game, whereas the Porkens wagon seems to be a shakier and built largely on accusations of his intentions with his votes.

When you say that the Porkens wagon is "full of fail", are you saying that you don't think Porkens is scum or that the votes on him have crap justification? Both, neither?

First and foremost my gut is saying right now that Porkens is not scum. That being said, I think some of the votes on him have indeed by without very good justification and are always there because of his lurking.

Looking at your list of who's scummy and who is not Chiar, you do realize that you are on the wagon that has more of your scummy reads on it, and your more town reads are on Santos' wagon. How does that make you feel about where your vote is at?

@HV 365--how about you actually answer the question.

@Ein 367--this post does not make any sense at all. You can't make vote analysis until you know someone's alignment.

[VP Baltar]

I'm willing to hammer Santos. I want Clara to post on both Santos and Porkens though, and I'm willing to wait until deadline for her or her replacement to respond.

I believe this is a smart play.

@Santos--I need to look at that one specific quote, but if I did indeed misread it, I withdraw that point.

Regarding you throwing a hissy fit and demanding I restate the case against you, sorry but you can read the thread. That's where the proof is at.

I think it is funny how you are now acting like you did the town a favor by putting ein at L-1. The reason he wanted "throw in the towel" as you say is because you guys were railroading him over complete BS and he was acting like a noob. I have a strong feeling that if I had prevented it, he would have been a mislynch. You did not help the situation at all, so please stop trying to claim that you did.

I'll fetch your quotes later after I eat dinner.

[VP Baltar]

Also, your accusations of Porkens lurking or 'needs to come say something before your death' are pretty ridiculous if he just posted yesterday. Not everyone is on the computer all day long. we have several days until deadline, I am quite certain he will post.

[VP Baltar]

It's not active lurking either. Do your homework. He hasn't posted anywhere on the site since that post, ie he hasn't even been on MS to read what you've been saying about him.

[VP Baltar]

*facepalm*

I'm going to make falafel. I'll check back later.

[VP Baltar]

After rereading the last few pages, I'm really interested to see what Head has cooked up. His descriptions of Char are somewhat...accurate.

What a surprise. HH, I don't understand how you can feel Santos is

not

scum. Chiar lynch isn't happening today imo.

[VP Baltar]

I have to say, HH, you do make some good points against chiar, and I would agree that he does seem like a deliberate poster on a gut level. I want to hear chiar's responses.

On the other hand, letting Santos live until later in the game is a bad idea if he is acting this scummy. I would just continue to have doubts about him until I find out his alignment for sure, so I'm definitely not for lynching anyone else today.

[VP Baltar]

Welcome, Col.

Looking forward to your observations.

[VP Baltar]

Random highlights from the Santos case:


Wanting to a make ein claim as early as possible!

Later claiming it was you who saved him by making him claim!

Trying to get a lynch on anybody and everybody!

Generally horrible logic in the cases you pursue!

Etc.!


Read the thread.

[VP Baltar]

GG everyone. Jammer did well as scum and I wouldn't have suspected him until late in the game. Wish I hadn't died so early, but what can you do.

I was surprised how many people wanted to lynch porkens.

[VP Baltar]

Conclusion: Being drunk rocks.

I hope I played some integral role in reaching this conclusion. Also, you probably didn't need this thread to tell you that.