Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[jammer]

/comfirm

A good game everyone.

[jammer]

Let start this.

@Cartza, is this your first experience with mafia, if so what brought you here, if not what/where did you play before?

Vote: No Lynch

Vote: Einlanzers

, what do you think to accomplish with a no lynch? If I see the numbers, we get one lynch less if we no lynch. I'd like to hear your reasoning. If this was created to no lynch D1, don't you think it would be a nightstart?

@Lupo El Loco, do you think this random voting stage is a good way to start discussion or do you think there are better ways?

@jonnydelawelsh, what do you like about mafia, and makes you want to play it?

Vote: Living Players

because we can't vote dead ones.

Is that a hint at the mod, for having 'living players' in same bold and row as the players or is that a lame joke.

@Claramata
Happy birthday, what do you think about the 3 week decline. Do you think it is a (to)long time to lynch someone or think it is normal?

@Porkens
If a topic is quiet and going nowhere, and players are heading obviously the wrong way and going to speedlynch townys, would you try to rerail the game as IC, even if you where mafia?

/confirm

I am one of your ICs. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be as helpful as I can.

Is there a easy way you keep track of the topic?

I think you keep notes from this thread, what are the points you write down and basically what is important enough to note. And basically how do you find mafia, what is the best way according to you?

[jammer]

Your question is unclear to me, unfortunately, because if the game is heading towards a speedlynch, then it isn't quiet and going nowhere.

That could be becouse I am used to EpicMafia, sometimes you have a big part of town with less interest, hop on the first bandwagon available and seem to tab out. There is a fast lynch going on someone, yet nothing really happened. You don't get it off becouse some are gone/don't care.

The combination is actually possible then, but yes a 'or' was better placed there.

If I thought the town was "obviously" heading in the wrong direction, I assume that fact would be, either at that time or later, obvious to other people as well. With that in mind, it would be beneficial to me to act in the towns interest, even if I were scum.

Would you act otherwise in newb games as mafia if you can get away with it, then in other games?
Something obvious for a seasoned player, isn't always quite obvious for a new player. And as mafia would you kill the other IC to be left over as the only experienced player and have better shots at winning, or would you kill a lurker to keep a game interesting.

Mod: could you delete the doublepost of me, sorry and thanks.

Mod Note: Done

[jammer]

Out of curiosity, why did you think I take notes? Have you seen me play before? Also, what is your experience with mafia? You seem to be active in getting us out of the RVS, which is a good thing.

Ok, let start with the beginning, I basically started playing mafia on a forum. Mafia there wasn't really serious and there was a set-deadline every 2 or 3 days, one with most votes gets out. I remember being voted with less votes then the number mafia had at some stage.
Since december last year I play Epicmafia, a fast paced chat version of mafia.
So a few days back I decided to try forum mafia, I notice it is completely different from EpicMafia, a day here has a deadline of 3 weeks, on epicmafia the 'kick active players' shows if the day took 10 minutes.

The logic of 3 weeks> 10 minutes made me think notes could be handy or else you lose control over the situation. It isn't like you check the past days within a minute like with EM.(only notes in EM I take is noting roles in a complex setup with a load of roles, just to easy check back what everyone claimed)
Reason I asked you out of others is that you have played some games before and (probably) would give a good anwser. This was more a actual newb-question about forum mafia, I wasn't directly pointed with your play.
And I could have seen some of your games, I checked some random games around here. Including some from Porkens and VP Baltar that I saw when I checked the wiki.

For me personally, the best way to find scum is to just keep asking questions to people you find are behaving suspiciously. The more a potential-mafia member says, the better chances you have of catching them slipping up or revealing motives that would better serve the mafia than the town. Some players on the site are very good at hiding this, which is why it is important to keep them talking. The key to this, however, is knowing when to let go of something and realize that the person may be town. Looking at things objectively is pretty important. I say be forceful with your accusations, but be willing to accept an answer as true if it makes logical sense from a town perspective.

Best scumhunting tactic I found is find a random way to shock the town into something surprising, and they are not sure how to respond.

For example, I've multiple times(maybe overused) fake-reported a guilty as cop(most times on a scummy player). In first case see how the player himself reacts then how town (and mafia) responds when you admit you faked a report at the time the player is almost lynched. Mafia and town gets confused what is happening. I've easily seen mafia showing their true colors with this(especially when new, go lynch the liar!), a few times even solved 3 way lylo's in one day with it(3 mafia I am completely sure of and lynch without any though). Only danger something like it can backfire extremely, I'm not yet lynched for it as real cop, but been so close. (those times I catched all mafia lonely becouse they all are on a wrong wagon and ignoring me)

Not sure(gues not) if it would really help in forum mafia. But tried in 'hopeless' situations at EM and worked, afterwards made me try it often in less hopeless situations. Once I get a grip on forum mafia, expect to see me pulling some strange acts.

Now I stop gloating about it.

[jammer]

Let start this.
@Lupo El Loco, do you think this random voting stage is a good way to start discussion or do you think there are better ways?

Vote: jammer

I gues that is a yes. Could you say why you think random voting is a good way to start up discussion, instead of asking random questions like I tried?

[jammer]

Well seeing as noone posted, I had no idea what anyone's personality was, so I couldn't even try to guess who was scum and who wasn't. I'd much rather save a townie than lynch one. Randomly voting wont really get you anywhere. Since you're so "experienced" I think that you are voting for me to aid the mafia, so:

Unvote
Vote: jammer

I have no clue how being 'experienced' with epicmafia will help me in the end. It is pretty different as I stated.

You state that me being 'experienced' and voting you equals I am mafia, could you explain that in detail?

Let start this.

@Cartza, is this your first experience with mafia, if so what brought you here, if not what/where did you play before?

No, I played two games on 2+2(poker forum)...I'm still very much a rookie thou...

If those games are played like it is here, it makes you a more experienced player then me.

What do you think about how I play at this moment?

I see that you're used to chat mafia, and I've played on epicmafia a bit too. I tend to prefer the longer deadlines from forum-based mafia, this way we have more time to gather information all players involved. The more time people have to talk, the more likely it is that scum will slip up and do something suspicious.

And the less likely town will make stupid mistakes, I been in plenty games where mafia succeeds into hurrying town into a lose. Simple logic that would clear a towny like having a hammer on 2 players with 5 people is to often overlooked. I think both got the good and bad sides. Let see how I like the good and bad of forum-mafia.

Do you think forum-mafia makes some people overthinking the mafia-game. Did it ever happened to you that there is an easy conclusion(that is right), but with a load of posts you draw other conclusions(that are wrong).


Simple request: can everyone without a avatar get one.

[jammer]

"I am not a crook!"

That is what crooks say

Oh, in case you forgot.

Let start this.
@Lupo El Loco, do you think this random voting stage is a good way to start discussion or do you think there are better ways?

Vote: jammer

I gues that is a yes. Could you say why you think random voting is a good way to start up discussion, instead of asking random questions like I tried?

Is there a way to have links to just a post? In can recall an other forum where quotes are automatically linked to the post it came from.

[jammer]

I guess jammer's logic for voting on me makes sense. Try to get me to talk, but it's a dual-edge sword, I believe he did it because he knows who is scum and who is not. And know that I am not scum makes it easy for him to vote for me to be lynched and use logic to make you guys agree with him.

Ok, so your reasoning is, jammer is scum. He knows who is scum for that reason. He votes me becouse I am not scum. And becouse he votes me and I am not scum, he must be scum?
Sounds something like a circular reasoning.

So ''my logic'' makes sense. Still you vote me for doing it?

I agree as previous mentioned that the people that are overly talkative are the people trying to "control" the game and therefore are the ones most likely to be scum. I maintain my vote and hope I am right in the end.

I tend to disagree, I think town is more interested in lynching mafia, then mafia would be in leading a wrong lynch. I think that interest would be showed in posts.
I don't plan changing my vote as well.

Vote: Cartza

Nice to see you here posting here.

@jonnydelawelsh, what do you like about mafia, and makes you want to play it?

[jammer]

I like to play the odds, and seeing that the best odds (especially with 0 information at my disposal) it seemed like me voting a No Lynch would prove to help me the best overall.

I'll try to explain it short.

A NL D1 basically gives one oppertunity less and lower odds at catching mafia the following days, unless you NL D2 as well. And get the last 2 days of the RL variation. Furthermore a RL gives info about how people respong to being voted, and if there are teams, how those work.

7-2 NL -> 6-2 (25% catching mafia)-> 4-2(33% catching mafia)->not one mafia is lose

7-2 RL (22% catching mafia)-> 5-2 (28% catching mafia)->3-2 (40% catching mafia)->not a single mafia is lose

2) I voted for jammer because he seemed to be overly talkative and seems to be hiding something by trying to focus the attention on everyone else. I admit it's also somewhat of a personal attack aswell as it seemed irrational/mean to vote for me because I was trying to be altruistic.

Actually I think, I focus attention on myself with asking questions to everyone. What makes you think I have something to hide?

Question, if I voted someone else that would have voted NL. Would you have voted me for that?

NL takes all power away from the town. It only works on EM so well because the setups are all open and familiar enough to "game."

It works on EM becouse many setups work with a milo->lylo system. But if there is a mislynch it'll be stupid (in most cases) to not use it.

[jammer]

UnVote
Vote: jonnydelawelsh

After re-reading this entire thread it looks like he either:

A) Is scum and is affiliating with scum to bring down a towny
or
B) Is just hopping on the bandwagon voting for someone who hasn't really posted anything yet.

He made 2 posts at this thread, a '/comfirm' post and a 'vote Cartza' post. How do you get those conclusions?
You turned 100% on the talkers are mafia idea. And now vote a lurker, the same thing you accuse him of?

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Who is that asshat you're talking about. Directed at jonny or me?

And to reply to the NL comments:
It makes sense that not voting takes away from the town the ability to cast out scum, but random voting gets you nowhere aswell. I DO agree that now what I should have done is just wait until people starting talking then vote for the suspicious ones. Give me a break. This is my first game .

I don't see a point in waiting untill something happens.
The random voting stage(I actual first time heard about it, here) gives people something to talk where you then can base your 'real' votes off. If everyone waits for something suspicious, nothing suspicious happens.

Not planning to give anyone a break, no matter how new they are.

Reminds me Cartza and jonny have posted little. Both of you speak more and get an avatar!

[jammer]

Either way he doesn't appear to be an asset to the townies. And seeing as I'll probably be lynched anyways I may aswell go down trying to help the town out.

Does anyone else see this as an appeal to emotion?

Well I think you could say that. But what do you think about it yourself? I don't really see it as a scum- or town-tell.

[jammer]

I could see it as a noob thing. But to declare, more than once; "I am town and I'm being lynched...poor me" is a noob-scum tactic (no offense). So is "I'm just a noobie, cut me some slack."

I'm not saying it's a strong scumtell, but it is certainly not compelling me to move my vote, nor is it an acceptable defense.

Thoughts jammer?

As far you can compare it to ''If you vote me you lose'' what I seen often in EM, I kind of think it is a null-tell. But certainly seen newb-mafia doing it, but in a yelling for attention way trying to flip one towny in lylo. Didn't see that post as a attention seeker.
I do see ''I am new'' as a excuse by scum and town. Some more with mafia especially when claiming PR's.

Just alone this point is little, imo. But seems to add up.

But actually like to hear what others thinks about this.

I mean, Cartza, Lupo El Loco, jonnydelawelsh and Santos with it. What do you all think?

[jammer]

Both mafia and town-newbies are likely to appeal to emotion IMO

It might be a clue, but then again it might not.

So I don't find it to be very compelling evidence of anything.

What do you think about the 3 votes on ein, and all posts and arguments around it?

[jammer]

Ok, I'm getting to my reread right now. While I'm doing that, porkens and jammer, can you tell me who else you are suspicious of, if anyone, besides ein?

Noone, actually.

Santos, cartza and lupo have added little if any. Don't feel I saw enough to say anything usefull about them. It would help if they posted more.

And why do you ask it to porkens and me. Why not Carla? Or the other players?

[jammer]

How should I post 'more' when I've been posting?

You do post, I just feel like those don't add much as in what you think. You seem to be looking how it unfolds. But, I have no clue what your opinions on the matter are.

[jammer]

I'm posing questions to players. I would like responses from them.

VP Baltar, why start with a random vote on an IC?

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

First questions seems off. I'd like to hear the anwser on the second through.

Where am I 'looking how it unfolds'?

Where should I have 'opinions on the matter'?

'the matter' is ein. And I haven't seen you taking a stand in it.

I seen to have forgotten to ask you questions.

Who do you suspect?
If ein was your partner, how would you react on these posts?

Yes, jammer (which is why I voted for him)

He seems to want to take the lead of the investigation a bit too much, and really actively questions other players to shift the attention away from himself.

I like 'leading'. I like playing the game.
(I have a strange habit of push a lynch on players who ask, why are you leading, who cleared you?) Feels like the chainsaw attack, link I had to check myself whatever it meant.
Chainsaw attack


But you can ask me any question of what is suspicious to you and bring it into attention.

If you where mafia, how would you act and response in the day?
Was the wagon on Ein too much suddenly?

[jammer]

Nice set of posts, wanted to question some, and then discover that was already questioned.(annoying if you find that out midtime)

Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

You state that everything that he said is according to being new? There are no scum-tells that can't be soluted without being new?

El Lupo Loco is looking pretty suspicious for the way he is avoiding taking an active role in the game, but is still posting pretty regularly. His vote on jammer for "trying to control discussion" or whatever is crap. If you think someone is controlling the game, then post more and take control.

I don't think I have seen enough to have a proper idea about lupo as well as with cartza.

VP,
For Einzal you say that being new with mafia explains his scumminess, how does being new affect lupo according to you?

Clara is the most scummy to me, however, for her sheeping along on einlanzers. She has at least some experience with mafia and I would expect her to be able to scumhunt on her own without being led around by jammer.

Actually, this gives some thoughs. I though she was hesitant in following at once, but still the second voter. But she didn't add anything new in the discussion or question others. Like to hear a reply from Clara.


Other players let add those.

Porkens: Seems set and sure on a lynch of ein, basically leading this together with me. Haven't seen much attention directed at other players.
Could share a second suspicion on yours, Porkens?

Cartza: Where is he?
jonnydelawelsh: Where is he?
Both of you go and post.

santos: I am not comfortable that he says he brings Ein at L-1 just to get him claim. And then likes to move on towards the next one. Santos motive of just voting to get him claim made me think about unvoting, altrough my suspcions on ein haven't become less.
Can I ask, how many players claim D1 normally, or in your previous games?
Many players claiming D1 doesn't seem optimal play. What good does claiming do, the only reason I see is a sudden PR claim that we better can't lynch that day. L-1 to me, seems close to a claim and die situation. Claiming and moving up to the next one seem to out or atleast closen up the PR's.

VP Baltar, in short: He seems pretty sure that ein is town, and finds the silent bw-follower a bigger suspect.

[jammer]

I said that everything should be disregarded as him being new? Please quote me where I said that. Also, while you are looking for that quote you can look at my wall post and see where I point out the things that I think are genuinely scummy from him.

Ok as a summary to my suspicions:
I think ein has some scummy statements in there, but mostly I think he is just noobish and is not thinking through what he is saying very thoroughly. I guess I have a soft spot for the underdog, but a lot of the things he says just a matter of having no experience with mafia.

You didn't say everything should be disregarded, ok. You say the scummy behaviour is mostly becouse of being new.
What quotes are actually scummy according to you and what are due to being new. Could you elaborate? The only quote where I see you pointing to newbish, is pointing to post 33, the omgus-vote.
Is that the only one, are all newish/scummy, or do you see posts that are due to being new and posts that are just scummy.

It's a factor for sure, as it always is when I play with new people, but Lupo seems more calculated in his actions and what he says (or doesn't say) in his posts. Ein is more like a VI than anything.

*Looks for VI in wiki*
If you see Ein as being a VI, are you then thinking mafia is actively building a case to get him lynched?
And lupo doesn't say much usefull, or is that also where you're pointing at?(active lurking)

[jammer]

Alright guys. I flat up give up. And seeing as I don't even get a "Bah" post after I'm lynched. I just wanted to make a post saying goodluck jammer and jonny I hope you guys win it for the scum because this town is lynch crazy towards one of their own and I guess they really don't want to survive this game.

Ok, let me state shortly.

1. Claim, what is your role?
2. What do you find scummy about me? Quote scummy statements of me, there is enought to quote from me. I've indeed not been 'attacked' yet.
3. Post what you think about all players, a short description what you think about every player can show what your thoughs are, and give that way a idea how you think the facts lie.
4. Please, try not to sulk, it really isn't making your case better.
5. If you think something other is usefull please share.

[jammer]

Actual not all the points need to be filled in, but I just want to see some posts with more content from you.

[jammer]

Alright guys. I flat up give up. And seeing as I don't even get a "Bah" post after I'm lynched. I just wanted to make a post saying goodluck jammer and jonny I hope you guys win it for the scum because this town is lynch crazy towards one of their own and I guess they really don't want to survive this game.

IS there actually anyone besides me afraid we don't hear anything from him back?

I'm sorry if my newbish behavior has come across as scummy to you, but if you actually look you'll see that this is my first game in over three years on here. I'm rusty man.

Ok, Ein is new and found scummy. You say your newbish behavior makes you scummy in the eyes of VP?
If I count you with it there are 6 'newish' players. All are pretty unfamiliair to (forum) mafia, this is my first forum-game. This seems a little like the 'cut me some slack' post from Ein.

And I'm focused on Ein because right now he seems like suspicious to me. The NL vote, the OMGUS vote on Jammer, and the appeal to emotion after a wagon had started all come to mind when I'm thinking of scummy behavior to back up my opinion on Ein.

Who would you suspect as Eins partner?
Who is/are the player(s) you think is is town?

Ein, I want you to claim.

Ein, I want you to speak.

More activity plz

Fixed.

Just a question in between, is the activity low for a average?
There is a newb game that started at same time and got double of posts. I also see a newb game that started 2 weeks before this and got same amount of posts.

[jammer]

@jammer

As I read, I found myself thinking the way you think quite often. You're active, ask relevant questions, and have been fairly even-handed in your interactions with other players.

Do you want Ein hammered at this time? If not, what are you trying to do with your vote on him?

Ein behaviour is scummy, maybe for a part that scummy behaviour can be explained with being new, but I don't believe all of it can be explained with a being new excuse. Yes, hammer may go down.

I want to see the next post of Clara and Ein to see if I want to switch my vote.

@Lupo, the vote on me of yours is as old as mine on Ein. I gave reasoning why my vote still stands.
You voted me on page 1 or 2 and comfirmed the vote on post 92
Is there a reason you are still voting me?
If there is, I like to hear a good reason.

@Lupo

You've been actively lurking all game. What players do you find most scummy this game? What do you think about Ein's wagon?

He does seem scummy so, without certainty, I would not oppose him getting lynched.

What do you think about Clara, do you think she is scummy for the 'silent' way she slipped on the wagon on Ein?
If you see that Ein is scummy and you do not oppose to get him lynched. What holds you back from voting him, what makes you doubt?

[jammer]

He does seem scummy so, without certainty, I would not oppose him getting lynched.

You've been making these kinds of content-free, wishy-washy posts all game.

Answer me this then, what kind of "content" do you expect when it's day 1 and all people can possibly be doing is running their mouths?

Find contradictions, look for mafia, what are the underlieing thoughs if there is a vote, is it a mafia sneaking a lynch on a towny or town looking for mafia.

Let me put a counterquestion, what do you think D2 looks like?

Random questions is just talking... It's easy for the mafia to talk and never take any risks. While by voting, they are taking risks that their voting record will ultimately look bad if they aren't careful. So I think random voting, at this point, is more likely to give clues.

If you think random voting is likely to give clues, why did you never change your vote?

@Lupo, the vote on me of yours is as old as mine on Ein. I gave reasoning why my vote still stands.
You voted me on page 1 or 2 and comfirmed the vote on post 92
Is there a reason you are still voting me?
If there is, I like to hear a good reason.
......
text
......
If you see that Ein is scummy and you do not oppose to get him lynched. What holds you back from voting him, what makes you doubt?

Anwser the questions, if you like.

[jammer]

My reason for voting you is still the same.

Can you build a case against me then?
Voting me for 'trying to take control' and 'asking questions so the attention isn't directed at him', to me, do not seem like legitimate reasons.
You can bring more attention to me, you have oppertunity. It would show the rest where the vote on me is based off.

What "holds me back" from voting for Ein is that he should be posting more, and I hope his latest message is not the only defence he's going to give us. Was that really your last word, Ein?

Ok, I understand you're hesitant bringing him back at L-1.
But do I understand with this, that you suspect Ein and me?
Any other people who you are suspicious off?

[jammer]

Lupo, you still haven't given me an answer to my question posed to you earlier...have you?

*knocks on computer screen*
Hey, El Lupo Loco, you missed this a couple times now. I expect an answer in your next post:

Lupo, would you agree or disagree with Einlanzers thoughts on jonny?

Lupo, this one if you missed it.

[jammer]

Wow I can't believe I missed that the first time around. Is Village Idiot an actual "class" that is given in this game.

If you didn't check the link I posted earlier, as I had to check w/e it was, here it is. It isn't a role or something, it is a term for in particulair new players who say the wrong things.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... lage_Idiot

I may have missed something, but I haven't seen Cartza post anything.

Correct, I think he has like a day to post(haven't checked) or be close to replacement.

Porkens seems experienced enough, but he also seems to be a bit like a "fanboy" and do whatever everyone else likes to do.

I honestly haven't looked at porkens like that. If I check back he seems focused at you, but I wouldn't say he is blindly following.

IS there actually anyone besides me afraid we don't hear anything from him back?

Yeah I didn't plan on doing anything but reading from my last post onward, but VP Baltar and Chiarosicada put me in a better mood and I have things in perspective now.

This makes me think I pushed you to hard from the start. Might have to reread what I did. Might be some 'aggresive' play was the reason you and Lupo where accusing me, might be something else. Atleast something to think about.

Ein, I want you to speak.

Woof!

Here a cookie

Oh and

Unvote

as my case for johnny was flawed. I want to vote for Clara, but I'll wait up to hear responses from you guys (I think I've swapped my vote enough so far ).

If a vote wouldn't bring anyone at L-1 or a hammer vote. I see no harm into voting as your votes are meant to show what you think.
As for my vote on you, I'll be rethinking it. As of now it seems the wagon on you can very well be breaking down. Due to the increased interest on Carla. It may be coinfidence but I think it started when you reached L-1, I'm wondering about the intensions about it. As the statements starting interest on Clara where made some time before you reached L-1.

I feel this post alone makes you add more then Lupo or Carla did. That is certainly a good point. As those are the other 2 I want to put my focus on for the meantime.

If I see it right, you basically pull everything you stated before back. And formed complete new opinions with this post. Like a new start.

Replacements are somewhat annoying now I think about it, jonny posted little. But he comes back on some posts, and you get a little bit off
who is who.

About replacement, jonny said as little that the replacer only started later in the game how I look at it. It seems strange to me if you come in midtime and you have to defend actions of someone else, and depending on something where you had no control on. How do you handle situations like that? Seems strange to me to be being confronted with playing style you had nothing to do with.

[jammer]

@Ein, after rereading your last post. You seem sincere and show interest in finding mafia. In my viewpoint you haven't added anything new to the discussion, as in asking questions to other players, and I would doubt your suspicions on Carla would be exising if VP didn't point them out before.
But if I see what Carla and Lupo posted, you're far from alone on my suspect list.
Yes, my top 3 suspects are Ein, Lupo and Carla.

In any case, you do not have the highest ammount of votes, after this post.

Unvote: Einlanzers

I didn't factor in my "No Lynch" as a suspicious act in-and-of-itself, so it looked like she voted that way just because you told her to

The ''no lynch'' was imo not a scum-act, but more a newb-approach. The voting you for a ''no lynch'' was to make clear a ''no lynch'' is not the best way to start, and it worked extremely well getting out of random votes.
The way you responded to me, was reason I kept the vote and also the reason Carla voted you at the time.

Ok, Einlanzers. Do you have any questions for the other players?

@Lupo

Like D1, except we can analyse the previous voting patterns in regards to who was lynched and who he turned out to be. Perhaps some insight from a cop as well.

If you say voting patterns matter, why haven't you voted your vote at any time. Are you afrain your votes look bad?

Meh. No opinion at this point.

You seem hesitent in showing your thoughs. You show you are there but never actually add something. I have not found any attempt of finding mafia of you.

What "holds me back" from voting for Ein is that he should be posting more, and I hope his latest message is not the only defence he's going to give us. Was that really your last word, Ein?

What do you think about Ein now, after the post he has written?

Santos; why have you mention Lupo so much in this game?

I though that was fairly obvioous, Lupo is actively here but fails to anwser some questions. Why do you think mentioning Lupo is strange?

'Okay! Now who am I talking to when I ask

this

questions!?'

Lupo, he seems to become irritated with you not anwering/ignoring him. Go, anwser it will actually help you. To me the neclecting of anwsering questions, seems scummy.

This, wishy washy posts

Vote: jammer

OMG, you suck.

Vote: Lupo El Loco

Lupo, your defence?

[jammer]

Mod: Been more then 5 days from last message of cartza, game is on for a week and he got a single post. I think it is time to find a replacement.

[jammer]

@jammer:
Why do you think that Lupo is a high suspect? We know (or at least I assume) the reasons for myself and Carla.

Actively lurking, ignoring some questions, and I feel he contradicts himself.

I though my post was clear, but if you need anything further you can ask.

Don't assume I'm town just because I defended you. Scum could very easily defend someone they know to be town just to form an unspoken alliance with that player.

You got to like/hate wifom
I like to add something to this WIFOM, if VP is still alive after we had some lynches and night kills. My suspicions on him will just rise as he lives. He seems experienced and knows what he is doing.
So if he lives on after a few nights. Then he can be mafia or mafia tries to frame him. Or with this post, do I want mafia to think that he can be framed/killed now?

And unrelately with this game self, are there known statistics about how this semi-open setup works out, if I look for it I don't seem to find anything.

[jammer]

Jammer

Is very defensive over votes when called out about them

Can you quote where I was overdefensive with Eins vote on me?
If you mean Lupo, I didn't vote him for voting me.

Your tactic discussed in POST 31 doesn't seem like a very good one to me, and would wayyy anti-town in eyes. (You mention Lynch all Liars...wouldn't that mean that you should be the sure the lynch?)

EM=/=forum mafia, and gambits aren't completely unknown to forum mafia.

The thing that peeves me the most is your want of a claim for Ein, (which you ultimately got)...Revealing any kind of power role on day one is a big anti-town move in my eyes.

If I check back there is a time where I ask for a claim. He was at L-1 and at that time was scummy as hell and added nothing of importence. You think the asking for a claim was unneeded at that time?

Lupo--

My main thing against you is that you seem to not agree with discussion, which I think is the most important weapon for the town. What other ways do you suggest we go about to find scum?

As he is replaced I think we get a completely different player. That will change something.

If I see your scummy list, I see Lupo pretty low on that list and I don't even see Clara on that list. Do you think Lupo/Clara are not scummy at all?

[jammer]

It’s the fact that you wanted a claim I believe was the worst part. IMHO In a game of this setup I believe that making anyone claim isn't worth it. If they plead vanilla would that really change whether you think they are scummy or not?...and then if they claim to be a Doc or a Cop then that makes them likely to be the one night killed. If they claim either of those, and are contradicted, then the person having that role would still have to claim that person is lieing, which in turn still reveals who they are.

Like I said ein was at L-1, I though he was lynch worthy. Now the bit that you do before someone gets hammered, is to get them claim. And that was my though process. There was no speculation of what to do if that and that happens.

@santos,

Your wagon now reached L-2. Any thoughs on that?

You unvoted Ein, but what do you think about Ein now?
Do you think he is scum?

You refered to Lupo throughout the game, what do you think the reasons where for the lurking and the ignoring of your questions?

[jammer]

Still he manages to vote you earlier, then you voted him.

[jammer]

Actually, ignoring questions seems a little suspicious.

[jammer]

Omg, answer my questions and then I'll answer yours. Tit for tat, brosef

Will do.

Answer on all your questions directed at me.


[emptyness]


(if you actually had a question to me, I missed it, please ask again)
Done, now your turn to anwser mine.

[jammer]

Porkens needs to post.

I'd like to see Clara posting...

[jammer]

Point of clarification: My screenname is CLARAmata not CARLAmata, people keep making this mistake (and I'm assuming it's because someone with a screenname very similar to mine was here before). It was a little confusing for me when people started calling me Carla. So just pointing that out so that I don't get confused while reading through. I'm easily confused.

I think I just took the name Carla over of someone else if I used it. (someone typed Carla, and without checking I repeat it)

I'm really tired of going back to point out the same thing I've pointed out. If he could try to answer questions that seem relevant to the game, as opposed to what Lupo was actually playing at, then maybe that would help me out. I don't get why he gets a 'get out of jail card' for not having to answer his predecessors' posed questions.

Its ridiculous how I am scummy now because a replacement can't fulfill his obligations to the game.

The way you act now makes me think about switching my vote and putting you at L-1. Why do you ignore me and others? And you're completelty focused on HH anwering questions of Lupo.

@HH,

Do you think I had a good reason to vote your predecessor?

How do you think about the timing of replacement, would you think my post and vote on him could have anything to do with it?

[jammer]

I would lynch either Santos or Clara right now.

Just to make clear, your thoughs are. If I understand right.

Santos.
1. The active lurking in the beginning.
2. The vote at ein on L-1 justified by arguments earlier given by other players. And as a reason just to get him claim.
3. Refusing to anwser questions.

Clara.
1. First pointed out scummy behaviour of Ein, but changing it into a vote after you asked her.
2. Agreeing on porkens with AtE of Ein, and later doing it herself.
3. Forming no new opinion of her own(sheeping)

If there is anything important I forgot, tell me.

@Clara, can you name your top 3 suspects and why you suspect them?

@santos

@santos,

Your wagon now reached L-2. Any thoughs on that?

You unvoted Ein, but what do you think about Ein now?
Do you think he is scum?

You refered to Lupo throughout the game, what do you think the reasons where for the lurking and the ignoring of your questions?

Santos, this is an unnecessary distraction. He cannot explain what El Lupo Loco was thinking because he is not him.

Please respond to HH case.

Also explain whether or not you think ein claiming was a good idea now that you got your way.

Who do you think should be the lynch today and why?

Can you anwser the questions, and give a explaination why you refused to anwser me becouse Head didn't anwser your questions to Lupo?

Make the L-2, L-1. The refusing to anwser is annoying me. And I can't honestly see a good reason why you shouldn't anwser. With this you are just lowing down the pace of this game. And I certainly do not see that as pro-town.
I hope being one vote away from a lynch makes you put some more efford in.

Unvote: Head_Honcho
Vote: Santos

[jammer]

You spoke,

Unvote: Santos

I do agree, with some thoughs on Lupo. But unsure how to translate that towards Head.

I think I be back tomorrow, with some more thoughs.

[jammer]

Santos.
If I am not mistaken, you have ignored what is going on and I asked you should say something twice now. Both times you where obsessed with Lupo anwsering questions of you. The second time, Lupo was replaced in the meantime.

First you you grabbed all arguments together and voted Ein.

Second time you defend(and attack HH) and suspect Porkens(now vote)

Your porkens case.
1. For bringing a vote on Ein, saying he atleast keeps it until Ein responds. And keeping it when Ein shortly responded on it.
~If Ein didn't gave a good responce according to you, you voted him. Why was Porkens suspicious?

2. Switches to you after VP points you out as a better candicate then Ein.
~Why do you think the reasons are not legit?

3. Porkens is an IC, and did not do much active scumhunting. IC + not scumhunting = mafia
~Unbeatable argumentation.

Why do you think Porkens is a better lynch candicate then Clara?


@HV, who is Porkens partner?
If porkens flips town if lynched, who is then mafia?

@VP, the recent budying up, HV having no opinion about Santos and they both vote Porkens strikes you as them being a pair.
Do you think a Santos/Clara or Porkens/Clara pairing is likely?

@porkens, if you could not vote Santos, who would you vote?

[jammer]

@ Jammer...

Firstly, you seem quite certain the Clara is scum, seeing as every possible scum-pair you've proposed to me she is a member of.

Now you say it, I was thinking out how some pairs would work. And her name came up, yes I think she is certainly scummy.

Well I can't be certain of anything, but I will say that Santos does have a case against him, but, again like i've said. Nothing compared to a Santos. Since I've put my vote on Santos now, I would be VERY suprised if at least 1 of these two doesn't show up as scum.

Amazing turnaround, amazing. I could easily see as a fail-bus.

and to comment on your question too VP...can you explain what kind of "Buddying" went on between me and Santos?

Like jokish 'conversation' what wasn't about the game self. Might be nothing special actually. But also the voting along with Santos. And Santos agreeing with your opinions.

I like to hear some of the others that have said little/nothing about the Santos-case.

@VP, I am not going to put my vote back right now. If you don't mind.

[jammer]

And, after a quick check of the last couple pages, altrough I agree with some suspicions, am I the only one that thinks this wagon came up fast and without (much) talking of Chia, Clara and Ein?

[jammer]

I don't feel it came on quick per se. Definitely has grounding. Also, are you trying to imply that you think both scum are in that group of players?

Yes, it definelty got grounding. I didn't though about both scum being on the bw on Santos, not implying anything.

But if Santos flips town if lynched. I do certainly think scum is in the wagon and supporting the lynch.

Just as a remark.
Ein didn't comment anything.

Clara only comment about Santos.

Santos is kind of fishy for his push on Ein to claim.

Chia last words

I'm not sure about a Santos lynch right now.

I'd like the players to comment before we lynch Santos in an instant. I think it would be something important to refer to in the next days.

[jammer]

Wow, really? jammer, where have I not answered you?

In the end you always have. Must I quote the posts where you seemed to stall?


@Chia, if you didn't see it.

Oh BTW I will be leaving Thursday 25th (technically today) for Wisconsin with the family for a vacation. Wont be back until Sunday the 28th, so I probably wont be posting until then. Just a heads up.

@Clara, you followed and supported the lynch on Ein without adding much. And you found Santos fishy after his behaviour was pointed out by others.

Who do you think is the best lynch today?

[jammer]

@Porkens,

Main argument is that you voted Santos, with as argument for it "Santos is scum, Baltar explained it.". He basically accuses you of sheeping the lynch on him. Not looking for other possible mafia on your own. Another argument is that he suspect you of tunneling on Ein and now on him.

Porkens can you explain what you found particulair scummy when you voted Santos, back then?

@Santos,

If I understant your though process, you suspect Clara for roughly same reasons, Clara following the bw on Ein. And agreeing on you being scummy.

You suspect HH for not willing to anwser the questions directed to Lupo, playing around and for a big part plainly for how Lupo acted.

Why didn't you vote Porkens earlier?
The reasoning for your vote on Porkens is based on older posts.

[jammer]

Meta-defence, Santos.
Okay, if I reread past games of Santos. He isn't known for solid powerful logic to say the least. And funny enough, you not paying attention to what happens is also a part of the meta. (example: Chia, you voted Porkens, what?)
I have no clue how to decipher scummy normal behaviour from scummy scummy behavior.

So basically the stand that Porkens voted you, becouse you think he follows any wagons that are on a easy lynch target. You for your natural way of acting scummy and Ein for being new.

As for Porkens, I can easily see him being mafia. But like to hear more before I give final conclusions. As I want Clara and Ein to give a opinion on anything that has been posted.

@Porkens,
Porkens can you explain what you found particulair scummy when you voted Santos, back then?
If Santos flips town, where would your suspicions be the following day?

[jammer]

My List of Scum:
1) Hurleys_Van - Swing vote
2) Claramata - Swing vote
3) Chiarosicada - Bandwagon

I might miss something, but.

Just the vote on Porkens brought Chia into the top3?
There was no good reason to vote Porkens?

Following out of this.
How is the bw on Porkens(2 votes) more suspicious then the bw on Santos(4 votes)? This When you put Santos down the 'scumlist'.
You suspect Santos more then Porkens?

There

is

a scum on this train.

There is

a

scum on the wagon?
There is one, and not two?
That is a special conclusion you have there. How did you reach it?

In any case, I think you underestimate the case on you.

[jammer]

I put some details together.


Santos-case.

1) Santos has been active lurking in the beginning.
2) He finally posts thoughs about Ein, and immediately puts a vote on him. link
3) ''I will unvote after his claim (regardless of what I think his alignment is) and move on to Lupo. '' link
4) Not taking any responsibility if the vote gets through a lynch?link
5) post 148, Porkens votes Santos
6) post 178, H_H votes Santos
7) He starts stalling, and wants HH to anwser the questions directed to Lupo.
8) post 186, Balthar votes Santos
9) post 226, jammer votes Santos
10) Response at the votes. Long post, but rereading it makes it look like a poor defence.
11) post 231, jammer unvotes
11) Votes Porkens, possibly trying to deflect attention.
12) post 248, HV votes Santos

Porkens-case.

1) Post 106, opposite of Santos, with the 'hammer now' post. link
2) Voting Santos, with as reason refering towards 'Balthars arguments.
3) Post 268, after Chia votes Porkens, Porkens replied with "he would happily hammer anyone with suspicons on him" Felt like a sarcastic response at the vote on him. link
4) General lurking and not adding anything/much new.
5) Ignores the votes on him.


Clara-case

1) Sheeping on AtE comment from Porkens on Ein. link
2) AtE of Clara link
3) Calling Santos pushy to let Ein claim, while Clara could unvote at the time. link
4) General lurking and not adding anything/much new.

Hurleys van
1) Budying with Santos
2) The vote hope from Porkens->Santos

@Porkens, what do you think about the votes on you?(2votes, and if HV vote counts 3, would be the same amount of Santos)
What exactly made you vote Santos, back then?
What do you think about Clara?

[jammer]

Loaded question! Because the game would be unfair casting both ICs as scum. You should know better than to ask a silly question like that :p

Seems logical that one IC is scum and the other one must be towny, that seems fair. I say we lynch one of them, if town we lynch the other tomorrow, win/win!(not a serious comment)

[jammer]

I would say Santos if I have to hammer at this moment. Altrough that is also based at having more interactions with players and the lynch will tell more.

Clara and Porkens, especially Clara. Both are lurking, I don't think I have a very good read on them for that reason. So I do like to hear more from them.

[jammer]

also

Unvote

vote

Porkens

btw, HV, I think the vote doesn't count. I 'think' Porkens has to be bolded as well.

[jammer]

Still no one has shown me why I still have votes on my person...unless thats jammer's reason for still having them?

My reason for what, votes?

Voters: why are you voting me and why has my ability to continue playing not got me lynched yet?

I do believe H_H and Baltar gave enough explanation in what they posted. You could try and ruin the case they make. Or go and ask Porkens w/e the reason is he voted you.
I am waiting for a Porkens and Clara response. And waiting longer gives interesting details, like you attacking Baltar and split votes on Porkens and you.

About the question, HV voted Porkens and suspects Baltar. Question is relevant, or not? How does the question make both IC=scum plausible?
What is the same you do now, btw.

So regarding point 2, both scum are on the wagon.
Do you think one of the following pairs is mafia?
H_H/Porkens
Baltar/Porkens

@VP, I wanted to hear more from Porkens and from Clara.
Clara has barely said anything on this.
Porkens has barely done more then voting as far I see.
I don't like to give them a free-pass for adding little to nothing. And that is the reason I haven't hammered Santos yet.

But as he is now at L-2, and every time you ask someone about their votes they change it. I don't want to stop that pattern.

Vote: Santos

[jammer]

My vote on you came as a complete unexpexted surprise, you read my posts before right?

[jammer]

@jammer
Do the "points" you have for each "case" add up to their total scumminess? (Meaning since Santos has the most points you think he's the scummiest) If not what is the order of scummiest from that list?

I putted in votes with Santos. So far from the truth.
You want an order? I can try and give one.
1) Santos
2) Clara
3) Porkens
4) HV

@Everyone
I still have high suspicions for Clara. I'm hoping that one of these lynch candidates (Porkens or Santos) is scum. I believe (and I very well could be wrong) that she will put the kabash on the town one and therefore we will know that Clara is scum and whoever isn't lynched is scum. I REALLY don't like the thought of lynching a townie, but if we can get both scum out of the way by day 3 that would be wonderful . This being said I really hope that Clara comes back and at least says something (if not votes!). I think that if she doesn't vote one way or another someone should step down from the Santos wagon because its a clear indication that she doesn't want to appear scummy but still wants Santos lynched.

Hold a moment there...
She knows as much as you do. If she hammers town that doesn't make her auto-scum.

That said, assuming Santos votes Porkens back.
Clara gets a hammer between 2 players on L-1?

That is interesting...

This is an interesting turn of evens. If Clara gets back she suddely realises she has can hammer on 2 players.

[jammer]

I am on the Santos wagon. Need more?

[jammer]

@Chia, if I understand you find a lynch on Porkens and a lynch on Santos completely fine.

How did Clara became less scummy with posting very little, and how did Porkens came higher on your scummy list with posting little?

[jammer]

H_H, why is no one hammering Santos necessarily a bad thing?

The reason I didn't hammer Santos before is becouse I wanted to hear from Porkens something besides one liners and especially from Clara who may even have forgotten about the game by now.

[jammer]

Clara has like an half an hour to post, or to be replaced.

Looking forward to the reasoning for your switch so close to deadline. I doubt it will have any effect on my vote, though.

[jammer]

Santos, what you just posted, feels like this.

You're jumping on anyone you can to save yourself.

But, I await what H_H has to say as well.

[jammer]

You think Santos is in a scumpair with H_H?

[jammer]

extension for replacement is 3 days

[jammer]

And now serious, HV.
Same question also at ein, how does this alone make HH suspicous?

And welcome to the game col.

[jammer]

About Clara, she is more then 2 years a user on the site and started as a SE. I can't see lack of experience as a reason. But there could be different reasons. I follow Bartar advice here, I am not going to question you for her actions, but for your own posts.

And that was a hammer. A good night everyone.

[jammer]

@Ein & Col., I don't see any harm in the last 2 votes. Could you inform me there?
Col. has made clear that he suspected Santos, and vote therefor. He replacing in, at a time Santos was close to being lynched anyway.
The accused of Chi from HH seemed to be partial about what Santos would flip. (if Santos flips town, then)
The game would drag on somewhat with arguments based on assumptions if that continued D1. And there was noone else then Santos being lynched at that point. Any other talking was done, most of the talk was related to Santos "flaming". Not hammering then would just delay the inevitable.


@Ein, who would you vote out of HH and Chi?

@Chi, could the actions of HH make sense as town?

@HH, I rememeber making a meta-reference of Santos myself, after Santos posted a few games of him. Why did you wait ~100 posts to check the games yourself or mentioning the meta?

[jammer]

@HH, The question was why did you wait that long with refering to a meta of Santos. While I already pointed out his meta was scummy. Why not refer or check it yourself earlier?

As you put me together with Chia as the scumpair. I can miss something obvious. Is this only becouse Chia puts me low in his scumlist?


@Porkens, it helps if you start giving your thoughs. And not continue playing like crap.

[jammer]

HH: I thought his meta was scummy->some actions null-tell.

I just refered to it, becouse it was a argument why you doubted Santos as mafia. I wondered why you didn't mention the doubt at all until that late in the day when the lynch was not stoppable.

If you make the meta a null-tell, then it seems you though Santos was town on a gut level. Not quite sure what to make out of that.

[jammer]

Basically Santos gave consistant anwsers, altrough scummy. Made you think he was less mafia. I find it a little weak, to be honest.

And Chia was inconsistant with some statements. You think he is mafia for that reason. You do have some points, but far from Santos in scummyness at that time.

Maybe your gut-level is just better then mine. But I find it hard to believe you found Chia more scummy then Santos.

[jammer]

About your actions being "logical scum actions". Santos made "logical scum actions" and was town. I could see the actions flipping both sides.

I'm actually more interesting why Chia, Ein, HV and Col.(I think, could be wrong about him). Are voting or leaning towards voting you. Becouse I don't see yet how the case against you, is strong enough to make you a lynch candidate.

I'm more leaning towards Chia as mafia, but I would like to be confinced.

I've played like crap; I won't deny it. However, I defy you to point out any non-lurker related scumtells.

Here's a scum tell, you choose to post this instead of responding to the vast number of game related posts already made this day.

Lurker-related.

[jammer]

Just the way Porkens votes, seems without much though to put someone at L-1.
Porkens, anything else to add, anything?

Ok, while we wait for the other players to post something.

HH,
What do you think about the intentions of the players on your wagon?
I.E. Chia, Ein and Porkens.

[jammer]

Chia, in your post 214.

You find the case HH made for Santos convincing. And FoS'd HH at the end of the post. Could you explain how you came towards that conclusion?

[jammer]

@jammer
Who do you think is scum?

I suspect you some more then HH. But no real strong feelings about that.
HH made a case on you for a big part based on gut. Your response on that is a omgus-case against HH.
Your case is mostly based on HH is trying to lynch you with a crap-case, and is for that reason mafia. Before HH accused you, you didn't seem to suspect HH at all. I think it is fishy when HH makes a case on you, just that suddenly makes HH mafia out of nothing.

That said.

I'm being scummy on purpose, so I won't get nightkilled.

Well, best defence ever.(this is what he means by "like this", Porkens)

Porkens lurking and now stating he is "scummy on purpose" makes him a good lynch target. If I had to connect a partner, it would be HH. Then again there could be some bussing involved, as you mentioned Ein earlier as possible Porkens partner.

[jammer]

The claim sounds convenient for mafia to claim in my eyes. Vanilla towny would get him lynched, a cop claim seems to save him.

I'm not buying this claim, not giving a penny for his claim.

If you are actual town(find that hard to believe) do you seriously think if you are acting scummy on purpose and you would live towards a lylo, we would actually believe your claim?
If you didn't want to get NK'd, could you explain why you continued acting scummy when players start voting you? And when Col. said he was putting you at L-1 if you didn't, you continued. From that stage it seems you where content claiming cop, otherwise you would have done something. A cop would do that?

Vote: Porkens

What is this possible bussing your talking about? Which direction is it going?

I was thinking out loud. There are many who you voted for or voted against you. A bus at some point is likely.

[jammer]

You could actually respond to the points.

Your bold-tags have a typo.

Mod: vote count on last page had a typo. Porkens had 2 votes not one at that moment.

[jammer]

1) I haven't voted you before, but I've suspected you before.

2) Can you explain your behaviour, the reason I voted you?

3) Chia unvoting and HH apologising just becouse you claimed cop?(convenient claim for mafia to make)
I put you back at L-1 to put the pressure back. Acting scummy to not being NK'd as a cop. I would see a newb-cop doing that, but acting scummy so you aren't NK'd and becouse of that having to claim at L-1, honestly isn't something I would see a older player doing.

4) Who is your innocent, it sure isn't HH or me.

[jammer]

Ok, so you act scummy on purpose. To not be NK'd.

Then you are called out for it, you continue doing it, becouse?
Being lynched isn't NK'd?

You know continuing it, especially after Col. asked for more imput from you, would end you being into a lynch position. But you didn't stop.

General question: Why continue acting scummy, if you are being pushed forward as the first lynch candidate?

[jammer]

I think my case against you, which I laid out in 435 is very difficult to construe as OMGUS. I think you asked me if town could have legitimately suspected Santos, to which I replied yes, myself included. I'll ask you a similar question. Do you find it plausible that a pro-town player would vote you in response to a case against him that he thinks is crap?

You voted HH for a crapcase against you. Isn't that OMGUS? Would you have build a case against HH, if HH suspected someone else?

[jammer]

I'm going to believe the claim for now, for two reasons: 1) Porkens replaced into Sensfan's role. In newbie setups, Sensfan frequently likes to claim cop as scum in lylo (he's done this in a game I've been in with him. More importantly, he's done this in a game Santos has been in with him) and I can see him not wanting to deal with defending an actual cop claim with that kind of meta working against him.

SensFan was forced out of this game. It is something between him and the listmod. Nothing game related. If he was in multiple games(not checked), he would be replaced out all of them.

2) His behavior is to some extent reasonable. VP Baltar posted and acted like you would expect a pro town IC to post and act, and he was the first night kill. One of the main points levied against Porkens early on was basically 'an IC should play better', a point which in this case actually works towards his defense. Why would a scum IC play such a scummy game?

To some extent you're not willing to be NK'd as a cop. But as you see he was scummy enough to get L-1 D1, and when starting to get into a lynch position he didn't stop his behaviour to stop outing his role. But he continued until he was forced to claim. This contradics his goal of getting as far as possible in this game as a cop.
"Why would he play such a scummy play", is a "he is too scummy to be scum" fallacy in the way I see it. He wouldn't act that scummy as scum so he is town. This logical fallacy is the only reason you trust Porkens?

Look; I've talked about my suspects (currently you), I'm fairly sure I'm right on the money. You never voted me till I claimed cop, probably because you wanted to keep a scummy player around till lylo. You've been giving me every benefit of the doubt in the universe until I claimed a power role, now you are HOT to lynch me, to get an easy lynch on a PR.

This is a good point. I think cop is probably more believable given your play than vanilla townie, so it seems strange that to some people it has made you appear scummier.

If you are scummy, a more believable claim is cop instead of blue. Becouse a cop would be scummy to avoid being nightkilled, really?
Main reason the cop claim puts my vote on him. Is the earlier mentioned "scummy on purpose" wasn't some joke, but he was actually serious. <.<
You see it as a viable reason for a cop, I see it as a lame excuse to act scummy.

I'm going to be rereading Jammer's play. I've kind of been casting a blind eye towards him because he seemed to be leaning my way when I was butting heads with Chia, and I thought Chia was scum. If Jammer is scum, I think that was exactly what he wanted. I am vocal and apparently completely misguided, and if Chia had been lynched and turned up town, that could have easily been turned around on me in lylo. Or, if I had been lynched Chia probably could have been lynched in lylo, with Jammer looking good for thinking I was town.

That

is logical scum behavior.

Let me set this straight, this is my view, you suspect Chia. You are making a assumption about Porkens alignment, you see him as town becouse of a logical fallacy, immediately makes your top-suspect Chia town instead of mafia. And then I'm mafia for voting Porkens.
r u srs?

[jammer]

@HH, how is getting yourself outed as cop a towny stragegy?
He was nearing towards being lynched and continuing ignoring/lurking is a good tactic?

2) Porkens is scum. Then most likely his bandwagon is full of townies so that leaves Chia, Col Cathart, and HH. And seeing as he claims Chia as town that would make me most suspicious of him as the partner (followed closely by HH).

Tbh, I don't think there is much info to get if Porkens flips scum. I wouldn't be surprised if a partner jumped on the wagon somewhere to "clear" himself. What makes you so sure the wagon is full with townys in that case?

jammer:

Get's right into the game with

some questions. Could be genuine conversation-

starters or scumhunting, but on retrospect look

more like Capt. Danning.

Capt. Danning? Who is Capt. Danning?

Porkens, kinda funny you have a Ein/jammer pair though up now. You think it is likely I tried to bus my "partner" starting at page 1?

[jammer]

Porkens, kinda funny you have a Ein/jammer pair though up now. You think it is likely I tried to bus my "partner" starting at page 1?

WIFOM.

H_H gave a completely wifom explaination on how you would be cop, and you don't mention it exists untill here?

[jammer]

*reads*
meh, that doesn't come across like I would like it to be. Little explaination.

"it" refers to wifom.

You can say all you want, Ein and me are not a likely scumpair.

As H_H before mentioned:paraprased "becouse a IC wouldn't act that scummy as scum you're likely town."

[jammer]

Jammer - What's your latest opinion about the game?

Didn't change much from last post. Isn't posted much in the meantime.
I think Porkens is going to try voting as much players as possible.

[jammer]

I'd like to hear something from Chia before I start posting more thoughs. HV can post in the meantime to, btw.

[jammer]

Jam: I simply think it makes more sense as town than as scum. We've been after him for bandwagoning and flying under the radar, and in my eyes he has acceptably explained both of those. I can understand why a post like 'scummy on purpose' would immediately grab your attention, but I think there is more to consider here.

As earlier said, it is wifom.

He wouldn't play this way as scum so he is cop.

It is also opposing Ockham Razor, you have to assume he did an act. That he gambitted as cop, to get suspicious and being voted without being lynched. Your explaination he would've planned this as scum from the beginning, is the same for a real cop. You'd have to assume as a cop there is no doc from the start?(also 50%) You could get doc-protection and surviving with acting pro-town.
Short: You're overthinking this way much. And you keep repeating the same thing over and over. This point is not going to change my mind as I opposed it earlier, why are you repeating it?

With that, I've heard no explaination, when at the time Porkens became the main lynch target for this day, he kept playing the same. Why didn't he stop the forced claim?

Ein and HV are both accusing him of squirming or trying to confuse the town right now, but he's simply following through on our request for his reads, I don't get why they're choosing to try to forward his case with points like that. Basically now he is scum for defending himself and answering our questions? I thought he was scum for not doing that.

Actually, I agree with the confusing stand. Porkens has switched votes between me and Ein. Focussing attention on anyone who votes him. Scum trying to move suspicion on anyone who is voting him, and avoid a lynch that way, imo.

Also, why'd you feel the need to defend Porkens?

Btw, with older post-quotes. Could you give a post number. I'd like to be able to recheck in what context quotes are taken.

Ein and HV can post, please. Awaiting the response of Ein from HH and the replacement of Chia.

[jammer]

Well, that's not really what I said. I said I think it makes more sense as town than as scum. You had asked me how getting yourself outed as cop was a townie strategy and I don't think it's as black and white as that. Your labeling of this as wifom is kind of unfair, as the next logical step is to consider 'okay, now why does this make more sense as a scum strategy?'.

I can recall you saying earlier it didn't made sense as mafia. And ofcourse it makes more sense from town-position if it wouldn't make sense as mafia. That was how I looked at that. And I referred to wifom, becouse it is. And I think it is far-fetched.

Hopefully I'm not contradicting myself here, but I don't necessarily think of this as a 'cop gambit', or that he was trying to draw votes to himself. I think of it more as somewhere between lazy play falling back on the investigation mechanic and trying not to garner attention from the scum, which I think adheres to Occam's Razor considerably more than the theory that he decided from the beginning to bet his survival this game on a coin flip.

This is where you've lost me. It's not the same

at all

as cop as it is as scum. Do you not get how it's a gamble to assume as scum there is no real cop and how it's safe to play your cop assuming there is no doc?

Short: You're overthinking this way much. And you keep repeating the same thing over and over. This point is not going to change my mind as I opposed it earlier, why are you repeating it?

Um, well, as for the repetition, you had asked me a question and that was my response. I guess you should make it more obvious if your questions are purely rhetorical.

What do you mean when you say I'm overthinking this?

As for the repetition, do you follow me if that wasn't exactly the anwser I was looking for? I wasn't asking why he would stay under the radar, more why he kept doing it when pressure was pilling up D2.

About your overthinking. Let state this simple. Your way of thinking.
a) Porkens is lazy cop.
b) Porkens is mafia and planned this from the start.
while you seem to forget,
c) Porkens is lazy mafia.
d) Porkens is cop and planned this from the start.

Option C, is pretty applicable, more then A in any case. Mafia aren't interested in finding scum, also don't care much who is lynched. You assume a pro-town role that doesn't seem to care whoever he lynches. And ignores any suspicions thrown on him? More mafia then town in any way I view it.

D was countering B. As I though he planned this play. I can continue on it, but mafia not claiming cop becouse they have 50% odds of countering. is normal.. This is your main point why scum-porkens wouldn't play like this and claim cop. Yes, I think he would be.

Well, he had listed Ein as his #2 suspect when he(porkens) voted me, so it's not like that's new. Also, you mentioned before my fallacious logic, but here you're basically saying his case on Ein is bad because he's scum.

Er, no. Referring to his vote on me and later Ein. He is voting who votes him. He is trying to put suspicion on me and Ein. And also goes easyly along with a HV lynch. Anyone who is on the wagon is fine with him. Can we lynch him already?

[jammer]

hmm, okay. Other view Porkens is at L-1 for a while now.

If he would be cop, or a mafia is not hammering. Or HV and Ein are both mafia.(fmpov) Or mafia is for some reason delaying laying down a hammer on Porkens, where I wouldn't see any point in at all.

fmpov, it would be a rather coinfidence if both Ein and HV are scum. And both where the first 2 to jump on the Porkens wagon. Not really likely.

Also as cc said, any defence of Porkens himself has not changed my mind at all. If anything, others are doing the defending for him. That doesn't make me want to trust Porkens.

@Ein,
I think this is part of the question directed at you. I think this would add.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#1744700

In the same post.
You found Santos scummy and listed him 3th. You list me and Porkens 1st and 2nd mainly for voting Santos besides voting you.

Explained as, Santos looks scummy to me.
Porkens and jammer are scum for voting Santos.

I hope this helps you understand HH's question.

[jammer]

Actually, let me rethink this. I feel like being tunneled on Porkens to much this day. Exspecially after looking at HV and Ein a little now.
I'd be posting something more on that topic. After reading them in iso, later this day.

unvote

[jammer]

Meh, I haven't paid much attention towards HV or Ein.

If HV is town, we don't lose much if he is playing like this the next day. I can't see anything particulair scummy in the play.

Just a point I want to bring in. It seems HV is getting lynched last second and as far I see. Porkens is better, but anyway.

I think HH mentioned it, but.
When HV flips town, I'd prefer to

not

have a doc on Porkens. If Porkens is real cop, and there is a doc. He would be roleblocked anyway. So all we would get is a unverified cop with possibly living unverified innocent in lylo. I rather have the doc protecting Vino, who is more likely to be town then Porkens. (pending the wifom that scum would fake a innocent random)

I do

NOT

want the doc to waste a save on Porkens, anyone disagree with this stand?

[jammer]

Jammer I find it interesting that you were adamant on lynching Porkens until HV was at L-1.

It was mainly vino who made me doubt. Late in the day I was looking at Porkens and you as a scumpair, you where actively defending him. Vino came in and was also in favour of letting him live. Made me rethink it, as Chia was willing to lynch Porkens before.

So the question of the hour is, who is the most likely partner of the late Hurleys_Van?

*shrug* At first sight anyone who isn't on the HV-wagon. That makes me and Ein.


Also, can both of you stop the doc/cop discussion. Post a thread in mafia-discussion if needed. You'll get more usefull info that way, then a discussion in here.

[jammer]

Also, here are the D1 and D2 votecounts. I did town in blue and mafia in red. HV and Ein did vote along D1 and D2.

Einlanzers: 4: jammer (4), Claramata (9),

Porkens (10), Santos (12)

jammer: 1: Lupo El Loco (5)

jonnydelawelsh:

1: Einlanzers (11)
Claramata: 1:

VP Baltar (13)

Not voting:

Cartza,

jonnydelawelsh

Santos: 5: Porkens (15), VP Baltar (18)

, jammer (25), Col.Cathart (30), Head_Honcho (31)

Porkens: 4: Chiarosicada (23)

,

Hurleys_Van (24),

Einlanzers (27),

Santos (28)

Hurleys_Van:

4: Col.Cathart (11), Head_Honcho (12),

Porkens (13), Vino (14)

Porkens: 2:

Hurleys_Van (3)

, Einlanzers (5)

Not voting: jammer

Also,

Ein--

Again very defensive of everything directed at him, could just be the beginner in him. Also, I didn't see anything else on your vote on Jammer, do you still believe them to be scum?

He is very defensive but just a beginner. Makes a argument on Ein then close to nullifies it.

*Going to look into Ein more, some time later.*

[jammer]

Some information

My Wagon:
jammer, Claramata, Porkens, Santos

Santos' Wagon:
Porkens, Head_Honcho, VP Baltar, jammer

Porkens' Wagon:
Chiarosicada, Hurleys_Van, Einlanzers, Santos

Porkens and jammer were both on my wagon and now are on Santoses wagon.
Santos was on my wagon and is now on Porkens' wagon.

It seems highly suspect to me that Porkens and/or jammer are scummer.
This also makes Santos look scummy, but it seems less so.

New list:
1) Porkens
2) jammer
3) Santos

Santos is third on you list, and you suspect Porkens and me for being on the wagon of Santos. How is someone voting someone you find suspicious, suspicious?

I assume at least one of those is scum (if not 2). And seeing as CC and HH were the last 2 to vote on him make them the most suspicious in my books. The last thing we need right now is another mislynch.

I'm glad that I was correct in my assumptions of Santos being town

, but saddened that he was mislynched :/.

Day later you

knew

Santos was town. While you didn't communicate it yesterday.

[jammer]

Firstly, the late respons came becouse a limited access. Mentioned in the other game I am in, but forgot to mention here. I apologise for any waiting.
In the close future it ~might~ take a few days before responding.

I don't know how I missed that post. Thanks for pointing that out. That post does make him very much so less suspicious.

Missing a post, lieing or careless. Neather are good. The quick change in opinion of the alligmentment of HH is strange. Felt a little like, Vino said he is town, so he is town.

I apologize for misspeaking can we move on?

I'd like some solid anwsers. iirc: In the same post you suspected me and Porkens becouse we where voting Santos, and you put Santos right behind us, becouse he was scummy. How where me and Porkens scummy for voting Santos?

Also, in the end you vote me becouse of process of elimination?
Col. started the wagon. HH asked Vino to hammer. Vino is clear, and it isn't you. I'd like some more proof if you really try to get me lynched, it is better for discussion if you get some arguments against me in.

@Vino, could you describe what "sketchiness" you meant between me and HV?

[jammer]

Blue here.(townie) I respond to other stuff (soonly) later.

[jammer]

In anyway, let add something.
I find bussing hard to believe with no doc claims(means no RB), in a situation the cop could easily be hammered. And get us into a 5 players 2 scum lylo without trouble.
iirc(if I'm wrong then blame me)
@Col.: Ein had one vote(?) I think from Porkens, why didn't you vote Ein? And get one of the main suspects at 2 votes instead of the biggest suspect at only one vote close to deadline.

Calling limited access for next week.

Inregular and small posts it will probably be(like this).

[jammer]

I think you somehow misunderstood my question Col. . Ein had one vote(checked it) you voted HV and didn't think you could lynch him with it, while your second suspect at that time (Ein) had already one vote and would be closer to a lynch with the vote.
Might be a strange question as you lynched scum. But I'm just wondering. What made you starting a new wagon instead of making an older bandwagon with a suspect of yours bigger?

[jammer]

One of your parents dieing, would certainly be one of the worst events in someones live.
I hope you get back to this soon. But I understand why you don't feel like playing.

[jammer]

Posting to make clear I'm not gone, I'll be back on posting reletively soonly.

[jammer]

There did not even happen that much in the time I was semi-gone. -.- Let get a few reactions.
For some reason I do not really feel like coming in after I did not post much. Hope that changes soon.

Because of above, and lack of any other suspects. Vino is confirmed townie. HH is playing very well, and aside from sudden D1 hammer, and Lupo's behavior, I have no suspicions ATM. Jammer was trying to lynch Porkens, but so do me for a long time, because I didn't believe him as well. Apart from that, he played really well. The only thing that bugs me was that strange unvote, when HV reached 3rd vote. Possible bussing? Maybe...

How was I ¨bussing¨ HV if I did not even vote him?

Unfortunately, lynching the first one seems impossible now, but I'm gonna try anyway. I wanted to hammer Porkens several times already, but HH's and Vito's explanations made me change my mind. It's actually a bit weird, that two other players did it, instead of Porkens himself ~^

Still not sure what to make out of it. Maybe trying to let Porkens lynched by other players, and vote a partner to look more clean by not being on the Porkens wagon and preparing a HV-bus for the day after.

Jammer played extremely well on day 1, for some reason not so well on day 2. Almost non-existent on day 3. If Ein is not a mafia, then probably he is.

.....
.....

And so

vote: Einlanzers

Hopefully, this is the end.

Well, that NK was pretty obvious.

*Sigh* I really thought, it was Ein... Oh well, back to re-reading the thread.

You sound more sure he was scum after he flipped town. Also, why did you feel like mentioning me before, if you where pretty sure about Ein?

[jammer]

You unvoted Porkens. According to the rules, HV would be lynched anyway at the deadline, even if no one would hammer him, because he had 3 votes, while Porkens had 2.

I did not vote him, nor did I put a case on him. Bussing? You need some other argument. I could put a vote straight back at porkens at any time.

Also, doesn´t matter but anyway, I wanted to unvote but when I posted I recall spending to much time rereading some posts and Porkens already voted.

Overly complicated plan, and completely unnecessary, because neither me or HV was in danger of lynch. Why pull that kind of gambit, if we could enter the lylo stage with full power, and little to none heat over our heads? IMO this theory doesn't make any sense. If you don't know what to make of it, then don't make anything, because the truth is simple - HV was IMO scummy, so I voted. I'm still quite amazed, how quickly this wagon went ahead, though...

Yea, that was the point a little, the speed. I can see you wouldn´t think you bring him into lynch danger with it. And see you voting the partner and call in later situations back I voted him back then.

This is mafia. If you're not a cop with a report, you cannot be 100% sure. Never. If you don't have a backup suspect, then you're playing this game wrong IMO.

I do not know why talking about next suspect while you just hammered the earlier one, makes sense. If you suspect me enough to put me as imidiate next day lynch. I would have liked it if you brought up a case against me Day 3.

Everything was fine during D1. K, I can understand, you told us about limited Internet access during later part of D3 and early D4. But what happened during D2 and early D3? You had a short argument with Porkens, but that's it in terms of your major thread activity. What happened? You don't like 'leading' anymore?

[/quote]
Need to check dates for what part of D3 I had limited access. For D2? How was my posting a lack a activity? I did not lead enough? Well, I was not prodded, that is one thing.
Can you post what lacked D2, then I can respond on that.

[jammer]

So what, you could have put back this vote at Porkens? Every vote can be changed every second, depending on someone's humor. It doesn't matter what you could do, but what you DID. And you just changed the deadline lynch target, 1 day before the deadline. That's far more bussy behavior, than my vote on HV IMO.

If the intention was what you meant. Then I can redirect you that I was actually about to post that before I saw porkens vote, as I said.
Also I would say bussy behaviour describes, you must be able to say later, I helped lynching scum! And I can not really say that...

Why take any risk, if you can not risk anything at all? Especially considering, I had a far better target for scum vote right under my nose. I could lynch a COP, and probably go away with it, as my accusation was more or less the same as 3 other players, including you. I said it once, and I'll say it again - scum must've been nuts, to do something like that.

When you posted the vote, it did not really seem like you thought HV would be lynched, how is it now that of a big risk?

Need to check dates for what part of D3 I had limited access. For D2? How was my posting a lack a activity? I did not lead enough?

Well, I was not prodded, that is one thing.

Can you post what lacked D2, then I can respond on that.

bolded part: cheap trick, and completely missing the point.

How is it cheap to point that out? You even admitted with the prod you thought you had another day? Reaks to tactical lurking.

And to stop you from going away from the topic once again - I'm not suspecting you, for the fact, you kept low profile during D2. Everyone have a different playstyle. See imkingdavid from my previous game (newbie 802) for an example of talkative person who asks lots and lots of question, and see me. I cannot stand talking all the time, so I'm observer, who gets active, when something catches his attention.

=lurker
It might be handy to read that game for me.

So playstyle is different matter for every player. But it gets really suspicious when someone is changing his playstyle during the game. You were a talkative person, who even admitted, that it IS your playstyle, and yet you slowly transformed into an observer during day 2 and following. Why the change? You stopped liking being a leader?

I talk whenever I like to talk. Once there is ´fire´, why start a new one.

Also, I followed the lynch on Santos D1, I did not come close leading that. -.-
1) Changing playstyle in game is not scummy.
2) I don´t think I changed my playstyle. :S

[jammer]

And that's a cheap trick because that was a 'Hey look, he got prodded - he's MAFIA!' and probable attempt to piss me off. At least, that's how I interpret it.

No, I got annoyed becouse I though you attacked my activity. So I responded with yours.

=lurker
It might be handy to read that game for me.

Uhm... No. Posting something, without anything important to say is more (active) lurking than not posting anything.

Posting something without saying anything is active lurking. Reading/observing the game and not posting is lurking.

Because the first fire might be the false one? If I didn't brought HV active lurkiness, he would probably be still alive. And remember, I did that when Porkens was the main topic of discussion.

Meh, well if the fire is good. I had no problems with Porkens being voted that day. :S

Yes it is. If you are town, you don't need to change your tactic, because your goal is still the same - find a scum. When you are a scum, you have to change tactic, depending on situation you are faced with - your scum partner as a lynch target, heat on a random innocent player, attempt to fish out the power roles, etc. etc.

As mafia you do not have any interest into lynching mafia, but like to lynch whoever. This argument gets off topic. But if you talk about consistace, there is no real difference, might even be mafia is more consistant.

2) I don´t think I changed my playstyle. :S

Yes, you did. I already posted, why I think that, and if you want me to stop thinking that way - prove it.

I get back on that, but heck a point of relative characters posting level.

[jammer]

Come on guys, no sense dragging this out, talk or vote. Jammer could I get a little more explanation as to why you unvoted right at the end of day two?

I am one day not posting, and it is dragging out?

Well, I think I already explained. Stupid as it might sound, Vino joined the game, and was against a Porkens lynch. You and Vino clearly being against the lynch made me think. Not both of you could be scum.
The longer the day was becoming, I was more&more looking at you as his partner and took the defence with a grain of salt. e.g you both voted me, and you where blatenly defending his actions. In retrospect that was a stupid assumption.

And you know what? This is getting ridiculous. It's obvious from this point of view, that Jammer will vote for me, and I'll vote for him. If Honcho is a scum, then our discussion is pointless anyway, and if he isn't, then none of our votes is dangerous.

Um, can you explain what happened with the questions you wanted to ask to HH? I though it was 3% vs. 6%?
You state you (purely) vote me becouse I will likely vote you(or you me)in the end.
Wait, what?

[jammer]

GG everyone. Jammer did well as scum and I wouldn't have suspected him until late in the game. Wish I hadn't died so early, but what can you do.

Your NK was rather much a process of elimination. And you being townish.

I was surprised how many people wanted to lynch porkens.

Well I am not worried with lynching a PR claim, altrough I think I would be some more carefull with Porkens if I was town. (altrough the last time someone claimed cop in EM, I got him lynched within 30 seconds, odds where like 1/7 he was mafia from a purely objective stand)

I told you guys - Scum must've been crazy to do such a stunt on his scumpartner in that circumstances, and I am not crazy

See him doing something like it in the first game he becomes scum.



And yes, after HV was lynched I already thought I would be losing this. HH was town, Ein and cc where left. Vino seemed certain ein was town. I did not see myself surviving 2 days.

Also, if anyone is interested.
http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/kkptFbeHVvDHp