Newbie 799 - Katana Village (Game Over!)

[nureins]

/confirm

[nureins]

Hi all.

I am one of the ICs of this game. Once the mod has declared the game open, I will be happy to answer any question regarding the game that you all may have. Basic things that I consider important:

- I am another player in the game. I have just played a few games. My views of the game are not "truths", just a bit more experienced opinions.

- I will try to help you, whichever my role in the game is. To help with this and whenever possible, I will try to separate my opinions on other players from my "advice" as an IC. You can also help by addressing more formal or theoretical questions with a formal way (@ICs, or something like that).

- Games in MafiaScum are slow. Be patient. Take it easy. We enjoy the game, and the game mostly consists of writting during several weeks to have opinions on who the scum is.

- It is a game. We can be kind and also a bit funny. Do not take very deeply opinions of other people. Mostly, they are opinions on your play, not on you (and many of them can be misunderstandings, different perceptions or even false in purpose!!) . Do not feel offended, we are just playing while trying to understand other people.

- Try to be active, whichever your role is. Below some level, being inactive makes the game uninteresting for everyone. Above this level, feel free to act as you think your role, your strategy, your mood, your life advices.

- New players might feel insecure about how to participate and play. Do not worry, this is a learning game. We all have to learn. Just find whatever is interesting in the game, start to participate with all of us and enjoy !!

----

@mod: While travelling in time remains a scientific impossibility, I recommend you not to deadline us in past

----

vote: Lab Mafia

Then you have something to contribute about in your second post

@Mevorra: Why didnt you vote if you guessed random voting was appropiate?

[nureins]

@wicked:

A couple of questions about your friendly voter.

a) Do you think greendude was rolefishing in his first post?
b) Do you think he was unclear in his first vote to you (about how serious or joke is his vote)?

--
IC-comment:
The sooner we start to know (and interrogate) eachother, the better for the town...please try to come up with some comments about the actions of other players (even if obviously, they are not very significant at this stage of the game).

[nureins]

Oh, and i just

want

to mention, i didn't notice that Belini had voted for Wickedswami.

Why do you want to mention that?

[nureins]

so no one thinks that i'm voting wickedswami because belini also voted and that makes us look like mafia buddies.

Two people voting together are necessarily mafia buddies? Indeed, mafia buddies do not collaborate so openly from the very beginning in newbie games...
But notice how you have maintained your vote once you realized that belini had also voted him...why didnt you unvote? you were not so worried that we thought you were mafia buddies? or why? I just pretend to know your reasons...telling the reasons help us to understand who is simulating (because they are mafia who need to invent attacks and votes etc) and who is not...

Explain why you called me a friendly voter.

It was kinda a joking way to call you. I was not knowing if your vote was totally random (friendly) or you were suspicious of him. Notice how your vote is not explained. I took it as a random one, but I also asked the person you voted for to give his opinion, as reactions are important.

Don't you mean my second post? And i was just asking a question because the second cop role said sane but the first one didn't have sane infront of it so i was curious...

Your second post. Your first game post, yeah. And I clearly see now the motive of your question. I didnt notice such difference in the mod ways to describe the cops.

GreenDude is posting an awful lot.

Greendude is very satisfactorily participating. We need activity, especially in day 1. Only town benefits from activity. Mafia desires to make uninformed random lynches to have more chances to win. Hopefully everyone participates as much as green, whichever their roles.

Thats because i'll type one thing then think of another. At least I DO post. You've barely posted weepingwind.

Do you find weeping suspicious for not posting?

@nureins: I agree with GD, please explain the 'friendly voter' expression, could sound like your trying to vaguely and non-committedly cast suspicion on an, as I read, it completely random vote.

I am not casting any suspicion yet. I am typically a very active participant, and I like to promote debate and ideas that we can use later. How? Knowing how we behave and trying to discover the two people who are simulating to be townies.

When I cast accusations, they will be very very open. Indeed, I typically make summaries of how I perceive the players, which I find more suspicious and why, etc. Then I cast serious votes and try to wagon and lynch the players I consider more suspicious. For that, I need to convince others with my arguments.

Right now, we are simply in a starting stage. Launching questions and getting reactions is a first step to know why people do the things they do.

so random voting has a big chance of killing a good guy, which is why we should watch out with it.

I will start for now with: vote: No lynch

In newbie games, there is almost a consensus that voting NoLynch day 1 only benefits mafia. We have 3 chances to find mafia by lynching. If you dont do it today, you just go down to 2 attempts. That loss is extremely important in terms of town chances to win. It cannot be compensated by the marginal positive things that could suggest NoLynch (if you think some, yes, there might be some, but they are less important). There is a serious consensus on that, you can read the wikipedia and discussions about this topic.

[nureins]

@nureins: It was wicked that wanted a no-lynch, not lab.

Yup. Sorry about it.

With respect to posting a lot or not, there are 5 players who have not participated much (nothing serious, it is page 2 and this is a newbie game, it is difficult to start participating, i just would like them to consider that town is benefitted from discussion). Surely, not much time has elapsed, and some of them might be even not entered much the forum...

Belili -- Lab -- Mevorra -- Silver -- weep

Lab has not participated, even being so happy to have the day started. If his case is that he didnt enter the forum, I guess he will come up with lot of comments the first time he enters.

Weeping expressed an opinion that talking much is somehow bad. Please weeping tell us why you think so.

Silver and Belili just random voted when someone had suggested that should be done. Lets hope they analyze players when we have suggested this has to be done

Mevorra is a curious case. He has posted 4 times, but in all of them he is somehow sharing few things (except technical help, suggestions that he is unsure and cautious to follow himself, etc). Taking initiative is not bad for townies, your most important contribution will be to expose information about other people... If you are a newbie, take it into account...

We need everyone in the discussion...

[nureins]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=No_Lynch

[nureins]

@nureins: who are you most suspicious of right now?

If you allow me so, lets postpone this for few days. There is a significant amount of players who didnt participate. Usually, page 6 or 7 starts the game in a more serious way. In any case, I was mostly surprised by the fact that we are not hurrying a lot in wagonning...

I was just making a potentially helpful observation, GreenDude is posting a lot, and trying to start a discussion to decide if this is suspicious or not.

Correct me if I am wrong, I am not english native speaker. When you said,
"green is posting an AWFUL lot", werent you taking a position in this discussion? The position that talking a lot was bad? In any case, do you consider talking a lot bad for town?

@Greendude: I wish I could post more however my work and sleep needs limit the time I have online.

If this is the case, please try to share your opinions with us the more you can and with the highest quality...

The fact that he's posting so much may have nothing to do with his role though. He could be just a naturally talkative person. Or it could be a part of a larger plot to prove his innocence or get us to believe he's an innocent.

Of course, it can be many things. But in any case, I prefer players talking a lot. This way, they can make more mistakes, show the connections to his/her scum partner, and give more information for further days. Whichever the reason of that attitude, it favours town.

I think this enforces my opinion on the matter

I do not think so. This is a newbie game. We ONLY have 3 lynches to guess mafia, or we will lose. Wasting one of the 3 makes us to lose 1/3 of our weapons, which is soooo much !!!
There is not a substantial benefit in no-lynching at the beginning of the game.

Also, I think the wiki is biased in saying that newbie scum proposes it. I think newbies in general propose it, scum and townies. Not a very significant signal in my view.

I don't know if it's allowed, but could you post a scumgame and a towngame of yours? I think us newbies could use it to read you correctly. I have read a towngame of yours (wow good play).

No problem in that. You can simply use the "search" option at the top of the page. I have played few games, so you can easily recognize my scum and townie ones.

I found curious your own labelling as newbie. I wouldnt have called you newbie at all from your posting.

I think i'll agree with you on voting to lynch the most inactive players, but since this game is moving along pretty slowly (last one i played had a 48hour deadline on day and 24hour deadline on night) I think we still have plenty of time to figure out who's active and who isn't.

IC: This game is moving at a satisfactory pace, according to mafiascum standards. That forum is a long run forum. Maintain the motivation and read/write actively, especially if you are town...

As I said, I was simply making an observation...It is important to take every little thing into consideration before lynching someone.

That paragraph sounded to me like repeating things that have been said, especially the irrelevant ones that are said in the beginning of the game (mostly by boring ICs). Weeping, I repeat my previous question. Were you taking a position with your comment or not? And if you took a position, what is it based on, please comment us...

I think everyone is a bit suspicious about wickedswami. So I suggest this:
we put pressure on him.

I think you are running too much by saying that "everyone is a bit suspicious...". Can you describe where have you found that this is the case?

And IF we lynch him, then we find out whether he's mafia or not.

Do you consider lynching him adequate at this stage?

If not, he was directing all our mafia finding energy on him, which wasn't helping us, and we will beable to get a move on finding the mafia.

1. How is he directing your energy? Did he make some extraordinary actions up to now?

2. Even if he did, are you unable to explore more than one player? It would be good for us to know if this is the case...

If you are proposing to lynch him, might you please make a summary of her big scumtells?

why do you push on voting him out so fast?
I'm just saying we should give it some more time.

He didnt push on voting lab out. He interrogated you about why you werent voting him given your position and attitude.

He is pushing on voting YOU out so fast right now

[nureins]

Does that mean that you find nobody suspicious yet because you perhaps know that certain suspicious people are actually mafia and don't want to say so??

no

[nureins]

Well that was rather plain, could you maybe say who you ARE suspicious of?

Why do you need me telling who I am suspicious of in page 4 ??
I am not about to vote anyone, and I have not big suspicions. Indeed, I prefer all players to participate and share questions/small observations before starting to wonder who is a "suspect".

Unless perhaps you're suspicious of me in which case you're not going to say so because if we lynch someone other then me then I will kill you if I'm the mafia because you said you were suspicious of me, then again on the other hand, if i don't kill you then you might asume I'm not mafia because you weren't killed.

too many conjectures. I am not more suspect of you than of other players. I will announce my suspicions when they are clear. And I will push a wagon on the player i consider more suspicious. You will notice very clearly, I can certify that. You can ask edmund about my "push-the-suspect" level in my other games.

@wickedswami, I'm not as suspicious of you anymore although you didn't find the hole in my thoughts which I placed purposely.

Might you tell us which hole and why you placed that hole purposedly? what did you want to test?

But, could you say whom you are suspicious of?? EVEN, if it's me.

I am not suspicious of anyone yet. Are you nervous?

[nureins]

But for now - irrationality seems to be the biggest lead.

Why do you consider irrationality as a scum signal?
If you consider Green irrational, wouldnt be the same case if he is scum or townie?

With respect to inactivity not having sense in Green´s position, I found this quite strange. In the same post, you claim that "laying low" is a common newbie mafia trait. Then, how would be green´s position nonsense??

Also, there is something I would like you to expand. You said you are a bit torn on wicked and green. Is the reason his No-lynch proposal? because you said you dont know if this means he is mafia or simply a newbie opinion...

people I am must suspicious of atm (though nothing serious yet) are nureins, mevorra and silverfang. It's just a feeling for now, I can't really point out why so I wouldn't look after it too much just yet

Please update your position when feelings become articulated opinions, so you can tell us why you are suspicious of us.

[nureins]

@nureins: You obviously didn't read my last post. I asked for an IC clarification which you didn't give and you repeat a question I posed Belini. Have you started skimming through the thread?

1. I never skim posts.
2. I was commenting posts one by one as I usually do. I noticed you had posted already my comment. I maintained it, as I considered it relevant.
3. I postponed the IC question for a final comment, and then I forgot.

If a majority of voters vote NO-lynch, then nobody is lynched and the mod moves the game to the night phase, where mafia can (or not) kill someone.

No-lynching is clearly a bad strategy at the beginning of a newbie game, since we have to lynch correctly sometime to win the game as town. If we vote No-lynch, then we cannot lynch any mafia. There are also other associated gains, such as diminishing the number of suspects for town powerroles, or creating information for town powerroles. The disadvantages, compared to all these advantages are pretty scarce, and there is a huge consensus that No-lynch is bad.

Being the most active player is he trying to prove his innocence? This coupled with Mevorra's theory seems to point to GreenDude as mafia.

That is basically a "too town to be town" WIFOM argument. You are accusing green of being scum because he is doing something that townies do. You give no proof that he is fakedly posting much to try to appear as a townie. Hence, posting a lot is something minimally pro-town that you would consider as favouring him. Saying that mafia would post a lot to try to appear as townies is wifom. And, at the end, it is pro-town. Hopefully all mafia members try to post a lot to appear as townies. It is the only way for town to have more information.

I think Green deserves one post himself about his "hole", his "plan" and wicked...later ill try to analyze all that...

Irrationality could be purposeful, hence why I consider it a possible scum trait.

It could be also his way. Do you have any particular reason to suspect he is being irrational in purpose? He is faking to be irrational as a scum plan? Please explain that plan and where you found this, as I cannot see that anywhere.

I claimed both things in the same post to point out my thought process. There's no 100% correct path to take, especially in the first round. I was trying to give the pros/cons.

That is fine, but you took a position by voting him and considering him scummy. And especially, by saying that your biggest lead was irrationality. This means, I guess, that you consider the "irrationality" an scumtell. Please explain me why.

With respect to scumpairs, I think you run too much. It is nice that you start to think about scumpairs, but the first mission for town is to find one scum. Once you find one, you can better read the connections with the rest of the players.

[nureins]

Let's say we lynch Greendude.

Basically, this is what Greendude was suggesting to do with Wicked.
Is that scummy? or simply the fact that he is irrational? I would appreciate your clarification on what you find so especially scummy in green.

If he's mafia, we have two suspects and are in great shape.

I would recommend you to do the maths again before proposing lynches so happily. First, in the case Green is mafia, and in the case 3 people voting him are townies, there would be 5 more players around. How do you end up with only 2 suspects??

1 + 3 + 2 = 9...

umm such maths...

If he's a townie, we have three suspects (one of them being me =/) and have a much better chance of getting a scum in round 2.

In the case he was a townie, there would be a small larger chance that some of you was scum, but not very clear who, how many etc...game is never so obvious.

Moreover, this will happen with any player you consider. You can think of wicked at the moment Green put him at L-2. He had 3 votes, as Green has. You can make the same analysis. You can make the same analysis of any player. At the end, what town wants is to lynch the most suspicious player. And I will vote the player I find more suspicious when I think is the time.

For the moment, random stage is over to my eyes.

Unvote

As to irrationality - I am assuming that Greendude is a rational person.

Why?
And why would be a rational person simulate to be irrational as scum?




If he's a townie, we have three suspects (one of them being me =/) and have a much better chance of getting a scum in round 2.

As to irrationality - I am assuming that Greendude is a rational person. I could be wrong =p. If he is, irrationality is a symptom of deception... or heavy drinking. Could go either way.[/quote]

[nureins]

@labmafia: Please, post your extended comments on the game up to now

[nureins]

Before more serious analysis, Ill give some answers to page 5. We (some of us, indeed, but most) are contributing a lot, lets continue this way.

@nureins: Could you PLEASE help me out here??

Why do you think I will help you out here?

I will analyze some of your play later, since I had one important thing that I let uncommented. Later will be time to re-read the whole game and decide whom to vote and push for.

[quoted="belili"]Given voting patterns and statements in this thread, there are two people the most likely could be tied to Green IF he is mafia
[/quote]

Even with the extreme assumption that mafia partners did not vote each other (which is not very realistic because mafia can vote each other in some circumstances), your maths continue the wrong way. You would remain having GREEN/LAB, GREEN/EDMUND, GREEN/WEEPING and GREEN/ME (4, and not 2).

But it's interesting that you would consider the statements of green and the statements of yourself as one in the same. As if you were a team.

He was clarifying a confusion (a confusion that YOU started). You had the possibility of saying:

a) hey, that is correct, i am sorry. I eliminate that from my "case" on green. The rest of my case remains, and it is that and that....

or you had the possibility of saying what you said. Curiously, you use your own confusion to accuse Edmund of something. Either you are very tunnelvisioned or this is scummy. More analysis later with the rest of players.

He was my second vote....

Your first vote was basically fun. You could have said us:

"yes, I found green scummy quite quickly and blabla"

or you could have done what you did, which is avoiding to answer edmund...


Ok. I come to analyze some players. Welcome to the real game !!

[nureins]

Currently, Greendude has 3 votes. I will start by analyzing them, to see which of the reasons and attackers are consistent. Then, I will add some of my own comments on Green.

1. SILVERFANG. Silver voted Green in the random stage, basically. After that, he added some reasons that I analyze now.

a) In posts 89 and 90, he accuses Green of "being the most active player".
Green accused-commented that mevorra was not participating much. Indeed, mevorra partially accepted this providing a timezone explanation. Silverfang accuses Green of trying to appear as townie by participating a lot.

That is a very poor accusation to my eyes. It is a "too town to be town" accusation. Greendude is participating a lot. That, without any other signal, is a positive issue. If Silverfang wants to show Greendude is mafia by participating a lot, he should show how this is "fake" and not pro-town, and second, how he is scummy in all these participations.

b) He buys Mevorra´s initial case on Green.

I will comment Mevorra´s case later. Buying other person case without commenting the weak or the strong points is not a good signal, in any case.

MEVORRA

Mevorra was the second person voting Green, after Green´s proposal to lynch wicked.

a) The first reason exposed was that post of Green. Supposedly, Mevorra found it "phoney". He didnt add anything else. Moreover, it is interesting to note that this was simply his first response after the petition of Edmund to be controversial.

We cannot see where it was phoney if Mevorra does not clarify. Moreover, Mevorra himself comes to say that Green was maybe promotion discussion and then softens this reason.

b) Mevorra promotes new reasons immediately. Now, it is the "Green makes illogical comments on wicked" reason.

I probably understand that Green was making illogical accusations. But clearly, that is not very correlated to the fact that Green is scum. It fits very well with the "i want this game moving even without thinking" type of reasoning. Illogical, quick, and obviously, not very helpful. But scummy? not necessarily.

c) Post 85 comes with new comments. There is no other reason added in post 85, just the description of a possible scumpair. I found post 85 especially odd. Mevorra comes with a theory of scumpairs including Green and Wicked.

As Mevorra had to explain how "illogical implies scummy", he came with a theory where Green just wanted to distance from Wicked. If this is true, illogical is scummy only if wicked is scum, and hence, the reason b) is not very strong, as it has only a chance to be significative. In any case, I find this theory very odd. I would find strange that newbie scum would propose to lynch their mates so openly, making all the attention to focus on either his mate (wicked) or him (by making such aggressive proposal).

3. BELILI

Belili puts Greendude at L-2 precisely when Greendude was seriously bandwagonning Wicked. I found that rather strange, since Belili was suspecting Green for being eager to lynch initially.

a) First reason was eagerness. Curiously, I think Belili himself provides in his first post a very plausible explanation of Greendude eagerness. It could be just his playstyle and that he was eager about everything. Participating, questioning, voting, lynching.

b) Also, he includes the "irrationality" reason. He has not explained however how that irrationality could be faked and scummy.

c) He quickly comes into analyzing scumpairs and the "benefits" of a greendude lynch. Curiously, he is precisely doing what he accused Green of. Promoting intensely a lynch because it is a "win win" situation. Everything is good in lynching green because we can find scum later both if green was scum or townie.

This reasoning is very bad. It can be applied to every player that we bandwagon. So basically, we need to vote the scummiest player.

d) Another reason comes from a confusion. Already explained. However, i found curious, as I said, that he uses that to accuse Edmund, being his own fault to confound terms.


---

Now, my own observation on Green. I find his "case" on Wicked curious, especially all that part in which he is "testing" wicked. Let me summarize.

Post 64. Green makes a case on Wicked. Supposedly, Green´s case has a hole.
Post 69. Green finds Wicked townie, even if Wicked fell in his hole-trap. That is rather strange. If someone is setting a trap, how likely is that the person finds the other person townie after falling in the trap?
Post 77. Greendude explains the trap to me. Admits that he does not know what this means. Why do you set up a trap if you have no interpretation of the behavior you are checking?

Summarizing, Green has been a very controversial player. His contribution is correct, and I like that part. He has not flied low at any moment, and was seriously participating from the beginning, even with aggressive and risky choices. I have some doubts on him, but I think most of them can be explained by his eagerness-townieness.

Please green, answer to my doubts on you. And if you plan to do it quickly, think twice.

[nureins]

nureins. You've posted plenty of large and analysing posts of thoughtful comments, but we have yet to hear what you actually think!
So far, you've only stated the obvious and summarised.

Really? why have you then waited for my "obvious summary" on Green to unvote?
Why didnt you unvoted before as it was obvious that your case on him was weak?
I find surprising that my opinion in Green is "obvious", when I am disagreeing with the biggest and heaviest wagon up to now. Please explain all that.

Relatively speaking, no. But there's little to go on for anyone at this point.

The same for you. Please answer how is that you were pushing so much the lynch of Green and you changed your position so much. Tell us which things you have considered to soften so quickly and dramatically your pressure on him. And if your answer is going to be something like this:

Did you even read my post? I think he's mafia... I also think we have a couple weeks to keep posting AND one player who hasn't posted once who should have the opportunity.

Id like to know:

a) how is compatible that you think he's mafia yet and your sentence on how little there is to continue your push on Green.

b) Why do you suddenly decide to consider that the replacement of silver deserves your unvote (and you didnt in posts 117 and 118 when you already knew that silver was replaced)

c) why do you suddenly decide to consider that those people who have not participated (pizza) deserve your unvote while there is one player that has not participated in the game (labmafia) and you didnt consider that for unvoting and putting pressure on him.

what's WIFOM?

Wine In Front Of Me. It refers to the situation where you start wondering, did he put the poison in my cup? did he put the poison in his cup awaiting for me to change it? did he...

etc, creating confusion. Basically, if you have a signal that someone is doing something most likely done by town, read it like that and stop creating confusion unless you have good arguments that show why that person could be doing such a thing as scum.

you are mafia, and hiding behind other people....

so I think we should follow their lead...

so i'll have to agree with edmund and...

Anything to say about the compatibility of these 3 sentences? I found them a bit curious

I'm not saying this is scum behaviour, but it would be easier for us, I think, to know where we have you, if you post some thoughts and suspicions instead of reviews of the game so far.

I was pretty clear that I would do after analyzing Green (and the wagon on him). Now I am re-reading, as I think we have material enough as to start pushing one or two people...

[nureins]

Hmm, I think I agree with wickedswami. Belili has been hiding behind mevorra a bit. But i haven't read through it recently though. I think I'm going to read through the entire game again with the idea of belili being scum.

Try to read thinking he is NOT scum and then come with comments...

[nureins]

Therefore I am willing to change my opinion about the null voting, and voting anyway.
This has nothing to do with people from the game.
You're pulling my sentences out of context and I hope you're not doing it on purpose.

You are probably correct in saying that you are just changing your opinion, and listening to experienced people.

I also think that you have justified your vote-attack on your own, and not merely following Edmund.

I was not pulling your sentences out of context. I just found them curious. I did no harsh attack, and I didnt plan to do it based on such minor thing. I was probably just checking your reaction to that point, which seemed to be the "key" of your attack.

Later in the day I will analyze the rest of players and, most likely, cast a vote.

[nureins]

LABMAFIA

Where is he? Lab, you must participate. If you say NOTHING, as you have done, what can we do? How can determine if you are scum or townie? Only scum would benefit from such absence of words. If you do not participate in the next 2 days in a very substantial way, i will ask you very clearly if you are playing with us or not. If you are playing with us, I will promote your lynch. If you are not playing with us, I will promote your replacement. Think about it seriously.

EDMUND

Contrary to Lab, he seems committed to the game. His activity is high and in general, serious. I think he correctly interrogated-evaluated Weeping, Wicked and Mevorra at the beginning of the game. In posts 82, 99 and 116, he focuses on Belili. Id like to comment that post 82 is probably the worst based of the three. Belili himself argued in his original post what Edmund criticizes of him. Maybe Belili could be accused of fence-sitting (Ill discuss this later), but the comment by Edmund is just repeating what Belili himself found weak in his argument.

This coupled Belili's misquotation of green, his hipocracy on the inactivity/"laying low" issue, his campaining greens band wagon the minute he entered the game and yes, his inactivity for a long stretch, has now gotten me more suspicious of him than any inactive player.

These are the reasons for Edmund´s vote. I have not seen how Misquotation of green could be something else than a mistake. Campaigning a player is not scum in itself, although I agree that Belili used the "easy" target, Green, in a quick way. I can understand how Belili´s attack on Green is excessive and maybe incorrect, but I am not very sure about how much scummy this is. I would like Edmund detailing where the scumminess is.

WEEPING

She has been extremely careful in her comments. The first "posting a lot" issue is the paradigmatical example, where she was only pointing out how much green was posting. According to her view, to generate discussion. However, she does not say at any point why is she interested in that piece of discussion, nor which her position is.

Something I found extremely curious is how much emphasis she puts into analyzing reasons for which mafia wouldnt bandwagon Greendude, while, at the same time, her suspicions are on players who are in the wagon (SILVER AND MEVORRA).

However, she has not argued at all how this original vibes have materialized. She is not expressing any final opinion nor any intention of materializing them. I find her among my top suspects.

WICKED

Wicked started the game cautiously, and in a doubtful position. About players, about what to do, etc. I think his No-lynch proposal was merely this. He was open in judging green as townie, something that he accompanied with soft suspicions to nureins, mevorra and silverfang. I can understand his suspicions on mevorra and silverfang, as part of the wagon of green. I guess his suspicions on me came from the typical fear to veteran players being scum and discussing-questioning everything.

In any case, what i was surprised by was his vote to Belili. I would have expected a vote to Mevorra after the evolution of the game. He is suspicious of mevorra and silverfang, green stops being the top candidate for a lynch with mevorra (and belili) doing some strange movements, this ends up in wicked voting Mevorra. Maybe he is largely influenced by Edmund, and Id like that to be clear. Which are your suspicions on Mevorra and Belili? Please detail.

Initially, I dont find Wicked very scummy. There is one scenario where I would consider him quite scummy, which is Mevorra being scum. But this is not based on his actions exclusively, so he is not high in my list.

SILVER

Not much to say. A weak attack on Green, but he was following other players and showing not much interest in the game (the replacement fits with a non-necessarily-scummy reason for his inactivity).

BELILI

Since he has two votes, Id appreciate Edmund and Wicked describing in detail their positions. What I have read from him is again a weak attack on Green and a follow spirit.

MEVORRA

I find Mevorra´s position very inconsistent across the game. He pushed the wagon on Green. Instead of giving "reasons" for his vote on the scumminess of Green, he started to discuss about scumpairs, accusing Wicked too. When the attack is not reaching high places, he unvotes and tries to fly low by admitting no suspicion on anyone. He has almost judged no one in the game and I think he is a good candidate to be scum.


At this point in the game, i am mostly reading Green as likely town. Hopefully we are correct in this judgement, because I am afraid that Green is a newbie having lots of mistakes and he is not going to stop doing them in a short run
I think mafia could have positioned themselves in opposite sides of the Green focus. With my observation, I find Mevorra the scummiest player among the wagonners, and Weeping among the non wagonners (i dont discard wicked if i am correct with mevorra). For the moment, I plan to vote Mevorra, although I would like:

a) Listen comments on Mevorra.
b) Listen comments on Weeping.
c) Listen comments on Belili
d) listen LAB and PIZZA (a lot !)

I might analyze Mevorra deeply in a subsequent post...

[nureins]

I may be wrong here, but that's what it sounds like to me.

I read that as scummy, but in a very different direction. He was basically saying "if we fail we will have an educated lynch tomorrow". Too quick to base your vote on future lynches. It is day 1, you lynch the scummiest player trying to hit scum. I think scum is more easily coming up with extra reasons about the usefulness of a lynch (eliminate useless players even if townies, lynch players with lot of connections even if townies, etc).

That was probably my major scum-read on Belili, so I feel you and Edmund could work on your "case" a little bit so I can compare it or comment it.

[nureins]

What I meant by obvious was not that it was already known. What I meant was that you were only using facts (as far as "facts" go here), to make new questions for people to answer, and you never (in my opinion) stated any real PERSONAL thoughts.

My questions/comments/ideas tell you where I was. It is the accumulation of questions/comments/ideas, and the re-read of all them and the first part of the game that end up in today...with a more serious analysis of players and likely a vote (on you).

I unvoted because I realized that my accusations of GreenDude were without any base, and I didn't want to risk a lynch of an active person, especially not if GD is a townie.

Might you tell us which your accusations initially were, now you perceived GD as scummy and how you arrived to the conclusions that your accusations had no base?

I just thought that wow, this guy just WANTS us to be considered a scumpair.

Why would he want that? To receive 2 votes later?
Moreover, I hardly see how Belili and you could be both scum. That is odd in newbie games, so much coordination in voting. This is the theory I consider less likely among (you scum, he town), (you town, he scum), (both town), (both scum).

I realized that they all sounded very.. Forced, and fake. It wasn't really a FACT, but more of a feeling I had. So I voted against him, and then created the theory on him being teamed up with wickedswami.
Lately, though, I realized that GreenDude is one of the greatest contributors in this game, whether he is scum or not, and I would not want to lynch him because of a feeling, in case he's townie.

But do you have this feeling yet?
Also, what you mean by "creating that theory". Do you find that theory good/bad/credible? Did you invent it to justify your vote?

I find edmund to be a bit like GreenDude, but without the large amount of posts.

How can be edmund a bit like GD? your description of GD seems to be something like impulsive, irrational and Edmund is playing very rational, paused, and responsible...


But I've had these feelings before, and they've changed.

and of course pikapizza, I cannot evaluate. That'd be guessing without even a feeling.[/quote]

[nureins]

EBWOP (edit by way of posting): the last two lines of my previous post are obviously from Mevorra's post.

[nureins]

This post is written immediately after POST 166.

First, a more intense analysis of Belili. Edmund's case is based on

1. Fence-sitting. I understand the origin of Edmund's accusation. Belili both accused and defended Greendude in the same post. However, I think that Fence-Sitting does not apply to Belili very much. This is because he took a very clear position. He voted. And he put GD at L-2. Hence, he was not doing the typically fence-sitting exercise, where the scum doubts and tries not to be an aggressive pusher.

2. Laying Low / Inactivity inconsisteny. I really had to read back the thread to understand better this point. I think I understand now the point.
Belili accused GD of nonsense attack of inactive players while Belili also defended GD for being very actively.
I find now the initial observation by Edmund interesting and a scum signal on Belili.

Later, Belili aimed to defend that inconsistency. How? Making a distinction of players in, lets say, 3 types

INACTIVE -- FLYINGLOW -- ACTIVE

According to Belili's defence, he had attacked GD for supporting the lynch of INACTIVE players, while defended GD for being ACTIVE. Under such categorization of 3 types, no inconsistency would exist.

I am not closed to believe Belili, but that point 2 is at least dubious. It includes lot of details, as Belili misinterpreting GD initially, the Inactive vs flying low difference not explained initially, etc.

3. Scumbuddy speculation. Edmund feels it might be an attempt to derail scum-hunting by encouraging farfetched speculation.

In my opinion, that speculation seems to be a newbie exercise trying to read too many things in few pages. As if a couple of votes in the beginning of the game were already giving him the truth of the game.
That newbie push would be then a neutral read to me.

4. Softening pressure on GD when the attack was losing strength.

I find this almost natural. Indeed, when being pushed by some of us, he continued saying that GD was his suspect. I think that is not a usual scummy tactic. I find more scum-usual what Mevorra did.
But I think he is somewhat insincere in telling us he just unvoted to listen the new players. He probably unvoted because of the pressure, as Mevorra did.

Obviously, not one of my favourite players in this game. But Ill compare him to Mevorra in the next post.

[nureins]

hello, i am back !!!
i've reread the thread in alot more detail and there are a few things that bother me...

It is really wonderful to have active players around !
I was very surprised by your sudden attack on GD, after you catalogued him as newbie townie. In any case, GD has been quite active and it is not bad to analyze him more, so Ill try to comment some of your points.

you never really say why you are "convinced" wicked is town other than he succeeded (or failed) in some kind of hole-test ??

I support this petition. GD, please answer.

1) he seems really self-conscious about every one of his posts, compulsively explaining himself even if nobody asks him to. it's minor, but i find that this kind of behaviour is more indicative of scum.

Compulsively participating (in all aspects). Thus, compulsively explaining himself. In the case of a compulsive participant, I do not think this is significative.

2) when under the spotlight, he tends to complain that people are "ganging up" on him with their "charisma". plays the newbie card really heavily (i think there were 4 instances where he remarked that he was really confused, and sometimes that was the entire post)

He is not "playing" the newbie card, because he is not defending his mistakes with the excuse "i am a newbie", or at least, not so much compared to his level of activity. Unless you show he is faking, that I dont think is the case.

3) Greendude has gotten a little quiet recently. whats up Greendude?

Agreed. GD, this is a learning game. Go on participating and try to scumhunt the best you can.

i think you are scummy because you have complied to all my wishes as you are trying very hard to appease the town in order to fit in better like the sneaky scum you are !!! furthermore you fabricate a case in order to cast suspicion elsewhere !! and so on !!!
you get the idea i think ...

Do you consider him your top scum? Pardon me, but I am a bit confused about your suspicions.

[nureins]

MEVORRA

In his first posts, he is cautious and making technical comments about the game.
Edmund asks him to say something controversial. His first post after that includes his first contribution, he votes GD.
At that moment, Mevorra starts rising his level of attack to GD, first with the illogical words/attacks of GD and later with a scumpair theory.
He devotes lot of posts to discuss this theory, and notice how until june 15th, GD is the only protagonist of his thread words (rest of comments are always related to GD).

In page 5, Edmund starts a serious attack on Belili (part of it based on the weak attack on GD).
In post 124, I analyze GD and find the attacks on him weak.
In post 125, GD says without any justification that Mevorra and Belili were "teaming up" against him.

After all these posts, Mevorra directly unvotes GD and declares that his attack was based on a theory without foundation. Moreover, he just says that GD is correct in saying that the attack on GD was just about irrationality. What I find more interesting is the following. He says

To be honest, my suspicions of GD have been based on a theory that has no foundation. I've had a feeling in my guts about you, but quite frankly, it's disappeared. I have other suspicions at the moment, not directed towards you, but I want to read through the game once more before I "publish" my thoughts.

Greendude is right when he says our cases against him are based on irrationality, and I feel it's a stupid idea to get GD lynched early because of a hunch, as he is without doubt the most talkative participant.

So, Mevorra

a) declares to have new suspects that he is going to publish after a re-read.
b) declares that he wants to read through the game once more before he "publishes" his thoughts.
( c) declares that it is not nice to lynch a high contributor just for a hunch )

However, might you accompany Mevorra to his next post? Look at it.

9 minutes later, Mevorra posts. Look at it. It is 9 minutes later simply. Think of that. Imagine you are a townie, and that you have been attacking a player (GD) for several days. You have had your mind dedicated to him for several days, You
are probably tunnelvisioning him a bit. Suddenly, you unvote him and recognize your case is bad. Well, even if you believe that is possible (I think is more natural what Belili did, admitting he is yet suspicious of GD), to accept that your case was bad and unvoting, you have had to think a lot about the game. And about the alternatives. So, you probably "publish" your new ideas and suspects in the same post. But let's assume that Mevorra is townie but he wants to re-read the game to write in better detail what he suspects. Is it that what Mevorra is doing?

NO. He re-reads in 9 minutes the post, contradicting b) in my opinion. He comes with no suspects. Look what he says. He just cautiously asks me to contribute more. He even says that this is not scum behavior!
Where are his new suspects? He is contradicting a) clearly. He has shown no new suspect and has published nothing. And notice that he QUOTES HIMSELF in this post, as demonstrating that this second post is completing the task of providing his new ideas after re-reading the game.

In my opinion, he just admitted to be wrong on GD as a result of the pressure (on him and on belili). He fakedly said that he had new suspects, and skimmed for 9 minutes to get anything. He however was terribly cautious in exposing that his accusation was not of scum behavior. Just a petition then. But he contradicted this way with his previous post.

As an aside, by the way, I do think my level of contribution is high. So probably, he is also contradicting c) (well, he is not, because he does not want to lynch me, he clearly has no suspects now, and the a) contradiction is the strong one).

Look how only one day later, once he has been asked to contribute by giving opinions of players (by Pika, if I read correctly), he gives opinions on lot of players. And look how he is not suspicious of no one in particular. Where are his announced suspects? It is only later that he comes with the Belili theory. But obviously, this theory has been constructed very lately. Because it rests on Belili having some "bad intentions" in his unvote. Thus, this theory was not at the moment in which Mevorra unvoted.

It is just a new theory to put pressure on Belili, thus making Belili the protagonist of the Mevorra-Belili show.

vote:Mevorra

[nureins]

(silver) I look forward to hearing from his replacement.

QFT

(GD) but overall he seems pro-town.

What do you exactly consider "overall pro-town" in him?

(pika) Too early to tell.

Weeping, please tell me which of your contributions during the game can generate enough discussion/information about you. Otherwise, lot of players judge you as "too early to tell" even you have played since the beginning.

(nur) A good IC. The majority of his posts have just been analyzing and or instructing. Even when repeatedly asked, he hasn't shared his suspicions.

"just analyzing" means? This game is about analyzing.
With respect to my suspicions, I think I have been very clear about my purposes and times. I have clearly stated my suspicions when the time has come. And my opinions with respect to other people's cases show openly my position on several players. Do you have any doubt about my suspicions? Please expose it, so I can clarify my position.

(edmund) He has kept more to the sidelines. He has been helpful but not overly active, posting comments on others' opinions, but not really any of his own. I would like to hear more from him.

He has contributed a lot. He is the protagonist of the wagon on Belili, and you can analyze him very clearly his positions.

(mevorra) A little uptight and defensive, I find him suspicious. But on re-reading, his theory of wickedswami and GreenDude seems logical. They had both criticized and attacked each other and consequently found each other innocent.

Do you find him suspicious because of the defensive attitude? Might you tell us which posts/words called especially your attention?

(wicked) I am assuming the No Lynch vote was just a newbie thing, but it's still something to consider. Also was overly worried with 2 votes. Either a naive townsperson, or an incompetant mafia.

And your guess is?

(belili) Not many posts, but seems to base opinions off of others, rather that forming his own ideas.

Please tell us 2 or 3 OWN ideas on this game. You can send telegraphic answers to my questions if you dont want to lose your time.

[nureins]

Sorry I haven't posted so much lately, since I tunnelvisioned on Belili I have been questioning my judgement a little bit. I think he might just be over-eager when he finally had time for the game.

Unvote

Please dedicate some of your time to tell us why your position on Belili changed, too. It is odd that you have your own case, take initiative, receive positive attention, collect some votes and feedback about your case, no clear opposition and suddenly, you decide to stop attacking him.

[nureins]

I summarize in order to discuss my points. Please feel free to expose if any of my points is incorrect.

1. Mevorra claims now that he had a new theory when he unvoted GD.

Notice the words of Mevorra when he unvoted.
It is not "a theory" what he had. He had SUSPICIONS. That is important.

I have other

suspicions

at the moment, not directed towards you, but I want to read through the game once more before I "publish" my thoughts.

2. Mevorra claims now that he read the thread, skimmed my posts and wrote the post during these 9 minutes.

In my opinion, reading 16 posts of Nureins the compulsive writer, some of which are terribly long, giving form to a new "theory" and writting this down in 9 minutes sounds a little bit of improvisation. The skim was really extreme...I maintain my view that he felt forced to unvote because of the pressure and decided to announce new suspects not to appear suspicious.
And given the evolution of the game, I find this scummy.

3. Mevorra claims now that his theory was materialized in the subsequent post.

Look at these words. Cautious petition to someone, not even considering that action scummy.

nureins. You've posted plenty of large and analysing posts of thoughtful comments, but we have yet to hear what you actually think!
So far, you've only stated the obvious and summarised.

I'm not saying this is scum behaviour

, but it would be easier for us, I think, to know where we have you, if you post some thoughts and suspicions instead of reviews of the game so far.

Notice how he does not accuse me of anything. He says that he is not saying that is a scum behavior. He just finds "easier" for the rest of people that I participate giving thoughts and suspicions.
Where are the SUSPICIONS that he announced in the previous post?
I think he just found any excuse to skim-accuse any player in combination with his unvote. Notice how this "theory" and "suspicions" did not evolve at all. Someone immediately pointed out that his words were not correct actually, and then he moved to Belili.

Also, look Mevorra's words on the unvote and his new theories.

I decided to unvote because I realized that there was no real "proof" to my theory, only a feeling, and since I already had the theory concerning you in mind, I decided to drop the current lead, and go for the next one.

Look how he puts to the same level the "feeling theory" on GD and his new "theory" on me. But this is totally inconsistent. He had been attacking GD fiercely, even creating theories about who the scumpair could be, voting to L-2, wagonning intensely before Edmund started to defend somehow GD.
What is his new theory? According to his post, just something he didnt consider scummy. He didnt push me at all, nor vote me, nor pursued any wagon of any kind. These two theories are very different. And the "theory" on GD, that fierce attack, was really fierce until the last moment. He never softened this attack until there was some external pressure against the attackers.
Simply came, unvoted, relaxed his fierce attack to the category of "feeling", and promoted an even softer "feeling theory" that he catalogued as non-scummy even.

I do not really like the explanation of Mevorra.

With respect to the Belili's reason to be scummy:

he kind of increased the suspicion about me, and a few of you were already quite suspicious of me. Doing this, he put me in a situation that I really did not want to be in, and I think a scum would recognize such a situation. So why did I vote against Belili:
He did something that seemed extremely scummish to me.

I really do not buy this. Belili attracted all the attention of the wagon initially. According to Mevorra:

I'm guessing that if you were so sure Belili was the scum, you would not vote against him, but against me.

Really? Come on, if Belili attracted all this attention to himself and made us believe that he is scum, what would we do? vote him and lynch him. So easily. It is really curious that Mevorra considers that Belili acted "scummy" voluntarily to implicate him. This is really very unlikely.

I think more likely the theory according to which Mevorra saw that attention was redirected to both him and belili. And, seeing that he was gonna get some vote (mine was more or less announced), he decided to unbalance the situation by putting an L-2 vote on Belili and making the game to be focused on him. And, given my previous observations on him, I also find this scummy.

[nureins]

My conclusions are that wickedswami is townie. I think so because of reasons hard to explain without writing a page of meaningless glob glob which no one would read anyway.

I will read that page. Please write it.

[nureins]

@nureins: The page of stuff was rather a joke, I don't consider wickedswami scum the same way that Belili does think that Nureins, edmund, or pizza are scum, but HE doesn't need to write an essay on why.

That is incorrect. Belili has said why more or less. I can follow his mind, independently he is scum or town. He is finding non-scummy to those players that soften the pressure on him in a moment when he was a hot spot and center of lot of attention (and according to him, with an easy cheap lynch).

Do not play the emotional card in which you feel worse treated. You admitted to have done lot of mistakes, thus you receive lot of attention. Do not try to appeal the emotions of people by simulating to be a little dog abandonned to his own luck...so please, share your theories...

[nureins]

@nureins: Could you PLEASE help me out here??

Could you "return" me the favour? Given your last post, I think you are not far away from voting Weeping...might you? Id like to listen her more actively but I only have a vote

Your case is full of holes, but there are a couple of interesting things around, that combine well with my own observations. I will be more explicit later when weeping defends...I think that she needs to enter hot discussions somehow. GD, use your vote to get it

Also, it would be nicer if you re-think your own accusations, discard the bad ones and contribute just with the two or three more significative. Your level of contribution is good, you focus on the quality a bit, ok?

[nureins]

That I used theory and suspicion as synonyms have nothing to do with hidden codes and personal interests, but simply a flawed english.

That is not a matter of english or language. The point is that you unvoted GD considering:

a) he was townie
b) your suspicions were in other players

And you came with an (incorrect) observation on one player that you even did not consider scummy.

Only later you moved to Belili when the situation was starting to be menacing for you.

Exactly. I'm a fast typer and I knew just about what I wanted to say, and I needed 9 minutes to rapidly read through nureins posts to make sure I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't.

I will be very happy to discuss which my contributions/obvious-statements/observations you considered in that 9 min read. I invite you to disect my posts and come back with that "theory".

You're mistaken. If I haven't misunderstood what you and nureins base this upon, it is based on the words I've used, not the content.

Suspicions means what in a mafia game? Do not turn this into a linguistic debate. That is quite scummy.

[nureins]

Remember that we can't rule out nuriens as being scum, people. Just putting that out there.

Did anyone rule that out?
I have not seen any judgement on me based on my IC status, but on my play.
Do you consider me townie, neutral, scummy? Do you have something to base that impression?

And i couldn't agree more that nureins could be scum, I was reading one game, and I thought to my self, my goodness I have a feeling that ic is scum, and i was right,

but even if i had the same feeling in this game

, it's not that easy to take out a valuable or not player.

have you this feeling?
If you have it, have you observed something particularly scummy on me?

[nureins]

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
There are so many possibilities, the human brain has limits. Because I instinctively felt scum-buddy speculation was a bad idea I have to consider it a scum signal, because I believe others would feel the same. nureins doesn't seem to agree with this.

Did I give my opinion? I dont remember it indeed. If you seem interested in my opinion, I can read more carefully your accusation. It will come tomorrow with an analysis of Weeping.

[nureins]

Perhaps he has a power role, and we're asking him out about it while he doesn't wanna tell what it is.

FOS: wicked

[nureins]

But you know, I'm smarter than the average bear!

You know consider that Belili is a Bear. He was partying with you against GD and you didnt perceive he was a Bear...

By the way, what do you think of GD now?
And of other players?

[nureins]

If he is a power role, he needs to say something, in my opinion. I would be that pissed off if I accidentally helped to lynch the doc or something.

STOP FISHING!

powerroles dont tell openly they are powerroles. If you consider a player scummy, vote him and push him to an L-2 or L-1 situation. That player will be forced to claim and thus, no lynch of powerrole is going to happen...

But before this happens, stop talking about powerroles, you only provoke that mafia has information about who might be a powerrole..

[nureins]

WEEPING

1. She has not taken any clear position up to now. She is an ACTIVE LURKER, as she has posted 12 times without scumhunting at all.

2. She shows no interest about the "debates" she claims to promote. In post 1, she mentions the activity of GD cautiously. In post 2, immediately after being questioned, she simply mentions her intention to launch a discussion. She expresses no position. Later, in post 3, she continuous with a fence-sitting on GD. No opinions, as in post 4. She never expressed why she was interested in discussing the talkative attitude of GD, or never shown her position about it before she was very questioned later on.

After being required to, she showed some scummy vibes about Silver and Mevorra. However, she again did not materialize or discuss them until she was required to do it, more later.

3. Her largest contribution to the game, without being asked to do it, is post 5, where she discusses the scumpair elaborated theory of Belili. Notice how she is yet analyzing, has not taken any position, but likes
to discuss a very complicated post not on scum, but on pairs of scum and voting patterns, while we are yet in page 4.

4. I find especially interesting how much she have thought about the fact that mafia would bandwagon or not GD. This is especially important, as she has not shown ANY clue on the rest of the game. In post 7, she again talks about that issue.

5. Also, in post 5, she shows her first "vibe suspicion" from silver and mevorra. No justification whatsoever provided. In my first view of this vibe suspicion, I thought her vibes showed that she thought the wagonners of GD scummy. In my opinion, that was somehow contradicting the fact that she discussed so much why mafia might not bandwagon.
In post 10, she denies that, and she says:

she claims

I was suspicious of SilverFang and Mevorra before they had voted for GreenDude

That simply cannot be true. Silver voted GD in his first post. Mevorra voted GD in his 5th post. She expressed no opinions about them before they voted GD. Indeed, after their votes to GD, she said:

I have no strong opinions on players as of yet, but I am analyzing.

So it seems clear to me that if she had suspicions on these players, they came AFTER they voted to GD.

a) It is obvious for Silver.
b) I think is obvious for Mevorra, because she says herself

Mevorra came off as a little scummy, especially with Belili imitating him, and has yet to completely clear himself.

. That imitation did not happen before the GD vote. Indeed, it started to be something relevant when Belili voted GD (after Mevorra), and more especially, when Belili unvoted GD (much later).

Thus, I think she contradicts. She did first softly, suggesting her vibes are on Silver and Mevorra, while discussing so much why mafia would NOT bandwagon (oppose to silver and mevorra). She does STRONGLY NOW, when to defend, she claims that she had suspicions on Silver and Mevorra before the wagon. Obviously, that cannot be true, and her own words show.

6. In that post 10, she claims happily to be newbie. I find this curious. Notice how she discusses strategy in post 6, arguing
"This strategy is very much used, and works well. " showing knowledge and skills of the game.

7. She is constantly appealing to excuses about her play.

I followed the advice of you, our IC, and now am continually being attacked for it.

She also shows an extreme defensive attitude, because she was not yet very pushed.
When GD attacks her, she "accepts", finds her attitude incorrect and appeals to time restrictions. Notice that this is not a valid excuse. She has written 12 posts. The point is that she is not expressing any opinion.

8. In her last post, when pushed, she makes a summary of players. Basically, she expresses no clear position on anyone. Also, notice that there are at least 4 players (silver, pika, edmund and myself) that she considers have not "shared" their suspicions. 3 of them at least (the latter) have been among the most important contributors during the time they played. Also, she is considering scummy what she is herself doing all along the game. She wants to "hear more" these players, while she has moved along the game without any participation.


-------

With respect to GD's case on Weeping:

a) GD wonders how posting a lot can signal a role, something that Weeping has expressed.

GD is wrong. Basically, Mafia Role is usually careful in their comments, as the more comments shared, the more information later in the game for the town, and the more mistakes can mafia make. That is because mafia has to fake their positions when scumhunting, basically.
But I found very funny that Weeping defends that participation can signal townieness and she remains without any participation at all.

b) GD points out a scumtell by Weeping when telling she had not played mafia this way.

GD is wrong. Weeping was pointing out how she had not played in this forum type, I think. However, I also found interesting GD's attack, as one of my points about Weeping has to do with Weeping's skills on mafia.

c) GD points out the "strong opinions" absence, leading to scumminess. In essence, that is one of my reasons to find Weeping scummy, as shown above.

d) GD points out that Weeping might be using the 1 mafia in the wagon, 1 mafia outside (with silver). I think that is running too much. But I understand his point. I had the same vibe (mevorra and weeping). Also, some of my attacks is based on the "strategy" discussion by Weeping. Thus, I understand GD point, even if he expresses it as a certainty that links Silver and Weeping (newbie analysis, id say).

e) GD points out role fishing. I have no clear opinion on that, and I prefer not to even discuss it now. I have enough material as to discuss role-oriented accusations.

Summarizing, from my point of view I consider GD a newbie analysis of a player, not much elaborated and even a bit tunnelvisioned. But in any case, I think he is not faking.

Given my own position on Weeping, described above, I find her highly scummy. Right now, Id be happy adding extra pressure to any of the two players (Mevorra or Weeping). As I used the Fos for something minor, lets consider

Wishingtovotebutnothavingavoteforher: weeping

[nureins]

If the deadline on votes would be now, who would you vote for? This goes out to all of you!

You cancelled your suspicions on GD. Which are the NEW ones?

Ill be V/LA until saturday morning.

[nureins]

Wishingtovotebutnothavingavoteforher: weeping

nureins, you don't seem to have ever unvoted Mevorra, so your vote for me doesn't count.

i know. Precisely for that reason i said that id wish to vote also for you, but i had only 1 vote.

[quote="GreenDude] And one more thing, I've figured out that it's ok for townies to lie. In fact it can save them from being killed during the night.`[/quote]

Townies never lie. The only admissible semi-lie is to be silent and cover their roles,, if they have some until they are forced to claim. This is a very general accepted rule. It is the only way to find mafia. Townies being sincere and honest in their comments, emotions and votes. Because then you can discern who is mafia and who is town.

GD, I do not like at all your words. I am yet convinced that Mevorra and Weeping are the best options, but I dont trust you so much as I did...

Also, I suggest we wait a little before someone hammers Mev, unless they seriously consider him to be scum. I say this because I currently can't see any scum in him.

GD and Belili accusations first
Mevorra claim later

And the opinions of those player who remain in the shadow too...

he says that he can't see any scum in Mevorra, but he doesn't seem at all opposed to a Mevorra lynch.
at this point in time, who would you lynch?`

QFT

Well, I would angle towards a GD lynch. I mean, if you put a gun to my head and didn't give me the option of bystanding, it would be GD. Most of that is still gut, however that unexplained vote on 283 (How in hell did I miss that?) looks more than a little fishy to me.

Build your case on GD and push him should be your attitude then...

I'm not terribly opposed to a Mev lynch because there are others (a lot of others) that are voting for him. It's possible that two scum are on that wagon, sure, but that leaves two townies, two which I hope have legitimate reasons to vote for Mev.

That is a ridiculous argument. It applies to every player who is put at L-1. 4 votes, at least 2 townies. Then you will not oppose to any lynch ever, which is very antitown if you consider that player townie.

Any accusations that have been directed towards me, I feel I have already said what I wanted to say about. If you have any other questions or comments, post them, but for now, I'm done.

Well then you can only expect to be lynched. In the case you were a townie, I suggest you to read the thread and make one or two cases about some players to give us hints for new days.


Finally, the days are not very windy lately...

Wind, explain your cases (the same goes for every other player who is not voting or explaining clearly his-her suspicions).

[nureins]

In the time left until the end of Day 1, I think we should consider others.

Your post sounds awfully scummy. You attack mevorra, put some pressure on him, he arrives to L-1 and suddenly you find him a bad lynch. You suggest to consider others but you have not considered ANYONE during all this game.

Please I want to hear everybody´s comments on my post 237 making a case on weep. Right now, i see no (serious) problem in any of the 3 wagonners of mevorra, I see my case adequate, and the only strange vibes i receive are from weep. And obviously, I want to discuss it now, before any lynch to avoid any confusion with that...

[nureins]

Important to notice for future maybe:

1. Pika pushed two different wagons (GD and WEEP) when Mevorra was gaining attention. The first player more or less when Mevorra got the first votes, the second when mevorra got two extra votes and arrived to L-1.

2. That can be significant, as Pika has not expressed any clear opinion on Mevorra. Look at the following list of "difficult to read, when i have more time, later in the game, neutral, look your case in detail, etc". This is HIS POSITION on a player who has been largely analyzed and currently at L-1.

3. Pika, please tell us openly if you consider mevorra scummy or not. If you find Weep or GD much scummier. If you are pushing these two wagons because you are uncomfortable with a mevorra lynch, etc...

difficult to get a proper read on him (MEVORRA) due to his lack of meaningful contribution. would like to see more from him.

will look further into

mevorra

, belili and wicked when i have time . seeya !!

i think you (MEVORRA) are scummy because you have complied to all my wishes as you are trying very hard to appease the town in order to fit in better like the sneaky scum you are !!! furthermore you fabricate a case in order to cast suspicion elsewhere !! and so on !!!

TWO POSTS BEFORE VOTING GREENDUDE, LATER ADMITTED TO BE A JOKE.

[quoe="pika"]my stance towards

mevorra

is fairly neutral at the moment, but i'll look into your case when i have time later. my "attack" was actually a joke in order to show how almost anyone's actions can be interpreted from a scum perspective, and that his "theory" against Belili held no water.
[/quote]

i'll get back to you with a detailed opinion after a reread. i'll need to reanalyse

Mevorra's

case.

[nureins]

@weep: Tell us your suspicions NOW (please). We only know that you find mevorra townie at the moment, thus, why arent you trying to lynch someone else??? deadline is approaching and your vote uncasted. We are about to lynch a player that you consider townie and you seem quite happy with that...

[nureins]

Since I do not want mevorra lynched and discussion has picked up (and shouldn't die down) i have decide to

unvote

.

But this time, there is no case on mevorra.

Do you consider my case on Mevorra weak?
Do you consider Edmund´s addenda weak?

If this is so, please tell us why, and tell us exactly which your position on Mevorra is.

Whom do you want to lynch?

[nureins]

No, I am saying there is no one who has proved them self to be scum, as in they have beyond a doubt proven their guilt,

so I would like to consider each one of you carefully

.

WHEN?

[nureins]

I am busy the next 4 days.
I ask Tenchi for an extension due to the last minute replacement (id like the new player having at least a couple of days to exchange opinions).
I want all people not voting saying openly who they want to lynch.

I am happy with a mevorra or weeping lynch. If this cannot happen, id re-consider the rest of players carefully. I am pushing mevorra first as right now I consider him a little more suspicious.

[nureins]

I want to notice how the non-voting players have not initiated ANY SERIOUS WAGON. They therefore want mevorra lynched, despite what they say. They are very anti-town by doing so.

[nureins]

... voiced their opinions on mevorra and he has given his defence. We need to get a move on.

Might you tell us which of the points in my case (and edmunds' one) are no longer valid as scummy signals?

Do you find any of Mevorra wagonners scummy?
Which is the reason that someone you consider townie has risen so much interest, in your opinion?

With respect to get a move on, we have a move on. mevorra is at L-2 and he might receive new votes. If you want to force a different lynch, I suggest you to provide arguments and stimulate the non-voters...

---

Currently I am happy with my vote. Be careful with deadline, please.

[nureins]

as i have been busy during the last weeks, ill promote some debate before voting. However, my first impression is that mevorra is scum and his partner also participated in the weeping lynch, forced by the need of a counterlynch.

Before anything, I want to know why james didnt vote the past day and I want to hear his extended opinions in the game...

[nureins]

i thought the case brought agianst weeping was more solid then the one on merrova. Greendude put a really good case and stuck with it.

is this your perception of day 1 ?
then how is the case that you wanted to vote GD starting day 2 ?

[nureins]

@edmund:

should we interpret your dedication to edmund in your first post a signal that you consider him the scummiest? or mevorra remains up there in your scumeter?

how do you interpret the mevorra vs weeping race?

[nureins]

@xBEKx: who would you vote among these two ?

I am more convinced that mevorra-bek is mafia after his initial post.
From my point of view, it is very natural to consider that mafia is in weeping´s wagon. This is because I thought mevorra was mafia and I was "happily" voting him all the time. The pressure on Mevorra was open and clear, and the parallel wagon on weeping was vague and only grew at the final rush of the day. In my opinion, mafia had to participate to compensate the possible lynch of a mafia guy (mevorra).

But from mevorra (bek) point of view, that seems strange. Imagine he is town for a moment, and he evaluates day 1. Why would he think that mafia was in Weeping´s wagon??? If he is townie, and weeping is townie, then what I would expect more likely is mafia living happily with not very fierce positions. Bek has not shown any attention to James, but has thought on tubby and pikapizza. Why would pikapizza fight so fiercely to change the lynch from mevorra to weeping ?? Why would tubby signal himself as a "lack of attention player who votes finally for weeping" deciding the lynch? I doubt they would have put so much effort or signal if mevorra is town.

Thus, I think Bek is not town. He is mafia, and he is not scumhunting properly. And I clearly read this as a signal that if Mevorra is mafia, we must prioriatize second scum on Pika--tubby, more than anyone else.

I want the opinions of pika and tubby though of course, everyone is invited to comment my point...

[nureins]

while people start to participate as needed (this obviously does not apply to edmund)

vote: Mevorra

My day 1 attack remains. I do consider important also how the weeping counterwagon finally crystalized. It is time for others to build serious counterwagons and justify them.

[nureins]

EBWOP: My mevorra vote obviously applies to BEK

Noted.

[nureins]

@edmund:

Why would scum-tubby vote weeping and DECIDE the lynch day 1 if Mevorra was town?

[nureins]

@nureins: Well, maybe he was trying to look active and comitted, perhaps, to look like town, whether he's town or scum. I don't consider it a scumtell that he decided the lynch. I do consider it a scumtell that he doesn't formulate his own explanaitions for his vote.

That is quite incoherent. If he tried to appear comitted, he had a very wonderful opportunity analyzing two townie players (weeping and mevorra)
and voting the scummiest. But he just voted without too much interest, and appearing as quite lost. That for me means he is a lost townie or a scum trying to save his mate and appearing as a lost townie. In any case, I therefore like Mevorra...

It is also very suspicious to me that after you have seriously attacked mevorra and people generated a counter wagon on a townie, you change your position. And especially signalling lot of players as tubby and james. And especially quickly voting one after my vote on mevorra. And especially when you had said that the other was the scummiest.