Newbie 764 - Game Over

[Sando]

/confirm

Off to work, will post later tonight, but wont be for at least 12+ hours.

p.s. am i meant to confirm as a replacement?

[Sando]

Also Kairyuu, I hatehatehate when somebody states explicitly that their "random" vote is random. It takes away the point of the vote. The only reason I can see for you to that is because you want to diminish the responsibilities associated with voting, and as town you should have no reason to.

No, you misread me. What I was saying is that Kairyuu explicitly stated that he was random voting when it was clear that he was, as evidenced by the following quote:

Kairyuu wrote:
Random vote: Chaos40 for being the last person to post before me.

I would have to agree with Kairyuu and others, this seems pretty semantic from Korts claiming that the random vote isn't random. I don't think anyones vote has been completely random, they've all picked someone for silly yet non-random reasons.

That said, it does start conversation, and jumping on someone for such a meaningless reason would seem like something more designed to promote discussion than throw suspicion away from themselves. Seems to have worked too...

Japles 'random' vote for Korts, without any reasoning, silly or not, after the only discussion so far has been about justification for vote, seems either very poorly thought out or just trying to fit in with everyone else.

Doesn't seem that much has happened while I was at work though.

[Sando]

Japles 'random' vote for Korts, without any reasoning, silly or not, after the only discussion so far has been about justification for vote, seems either very poorly thought out or just trying to fit in with everyone else.

I'm going to

Vote: Japles

for the above reason, it's been a day since 2 people called him on his 'random' voting.

[Sando]

It's not the fact that Kairyuu's vote was arbitrary that bugs me. It's the fact that he explicitly stated that it's random, pre-emptively defending against any fake cases that might be built on it and giving him another reason to hop off the wagon in case it builds up.

I'm slightly confused, and this 50/50 questioning whether this actually bugs you or if you're just spoiling for a fight, and me being a newbie and not getting where you're coming from.

If his vote is arbitrary, whether or not that is a bad thing, wouldn't you want to preface it with that fact? Assuming he were town, and a BW did start on the target of his arbitrary vote, if he then decided to simply remove his arbitrary vote, wouldn't it seem like a huge scum tell by someone merely removing an arbitrary vote? By saying it was arbitrary, no real meaning will be read into him removing it.

However i do realise that a lot of people feel that announcing a random vote as random makes it lose it's power to pressure. But to my mind, that seems like a fairly flimsy argument given that anyone with half a brain can work out that a vote on the first page with no/silly reason is random/arbitraty/sillyness.

And yeah, still waiting to hear from Japles regarding his vote, and Bekkatha regarding...anything.

[Sando]

just trying to fit in with everyone else.

This... I was just on for a few seconds to read... and when I play a game, I roll a die to determine my first vote.

I will now

unvote

...

@Japles
Ahh, i was implying that is was a bad (read: scummy) thing that you're just trying to fit in with everyone else. I think that a scum would do everything in their power to be seen as just one in the crowd.

So 'just trying to fit in' would seem pretty scummy to me.

Your vote struck me as an attempt to just look like everyone else, get your name on the board with a minimum of fuss and comment, seems fairly scummy to me.

If you're content with your explanation of 'i wanted to fit in', that's fine, but if that's the case, I'm certainly keeping my vote on you as the scummiest person around in my view.

Re: Kairyuu's accusation of Chaos

I can see Kairyuu's point regarding Chaos40, when pressed to promote discussion, merely unvoted, which would seem to kill discussion rather than promote it. I can see why you feel he's scummy, but considering the above, I'd rather keep my vote on Japles for the moment.

Re: Kairyuu vs Korts

I think it's fairly obvious that if you wanted me to declare for a 'side', then I'd be on Kairyuu's side. I don't think that Korts seems scummy, but he seems more scummy than Kairyuu if that counts for anything. I still think it's a pretty big stretch to get so offended, or at least seem to, over what amounts to semantics with words.

I wont get into my thoughts regarding your plans for this conversation, I'm pretty happy with you not being scum at the moment, although I obviously do have some theories, I'll respect your wishes to leave your plan alone for the time being.

@kairyuu, I actually read your last IC game, and the game you referenced it from, the gambit was pretty interesting. I did love how you caught out the D1 Goon. When i saw you were IC in this game, I was tossing around in my head trying to work out how to respond to it if you did it here.

[Sando]

Do you mean that last sentence as, you were wondering how to go along with it as town, or how to avoid getting stuck in it as scum?

I'd be seriously considering that he was using the last game as an example of how good it is for a townie to do while secretly being scum and trying it from the other side.

He was also sort of testing it in that game as far as i recall, so i figure he might want to test doing it as scum at some point.

He also said it was something to be used in moderation, so if he did it 2 in 2 newbie games, I'd have to think he was trying something different the second time, which would mean he was doing it as either a scum or as the doctor.

For those that don't know, he claimed doc (he wasn't) on D1 for no other reason than drawing out scum. Was pretty interesting, and more interesting was the game he referenced.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=1

This is the game if you're interested, it'll also give you an idea of how one of our ICs thinks.

All of this is rather academic though, he didn't do it.

[Sando]

Re: Kairyuu's accusation of Chaos
I can see Kairyuu's point regarding Chaos40, when pressed to promote discussion, merely unvoted, which would seem to kill discussion rather than promote it.

I voted Ojanen based on random numbers. It was explained to me why voting on random numbers was essentially a bad idea and so, taking the advice at face value (which may have been a mistake) I retracted the vote.

The problem with your unvote was that you got called on your vote:

@Chaos: Why use random numbers to determine your vote? Using a RNG (assuming you did) takes the responsibility for the vote off of yourself, and therefore renders it useless in advancing the game.

Defended it:

Well, seeing as it's so early in the game. I really have nothing else to base my vote on. Once the game progresses and discussion develops I will have more solid arguments and evidence to use as a basis.

Got a slight nudge from Kairyuu:

Any reason you can't try to get the discussion going yourself? Why is it that you need to wait for other people to start the discussion.

And decide to unvote while getting pretty defensive:

I admit that I did little to initate discussion, but as the posts above mine were little more than abitrary votes themselves, I didn't have much to build upon, and whilst I was unsure as to how to begin discussion, it certainly seems to have begun as a reaction to my random vote. But as I don't have any reason (even an abitrary one) to let my vote linger on someone who has yet to post, I'll Unvote

You were pushed to promote discussion, and it seems you know that early voting can produce this, yet you then unvote. If you were going to unvote, i would have expected it after Kairyuu's first comment, the unvote after the second question smacks of just trying to get him to stop hassling you.

[Sando]

I'll post twice, once regarding the doc gambit, and my rather offhand remark regarding it, secondly regarding the Kairyuu vs Korts.

First, the Doc gambit. For those that don't know, Kairyuu used a gambit that he'd seen used before (i believe you said it was in your own newbie game, or by your IC from your newbie game or something along those lines). He claimed Doc first day, with no provocation (ie he wasn't in danger of being lynched and needed to claim to stay alive). It's important to note that he was a vanilla townie in that game.

He got all sorts of responses, most of them negative, however he caught the scum because they expressed their lack of understanding of the gambit way too hard. They appealed to emotion rather than logic, scummy. (When i say 'they' I mean the first day scum, I don't remember the catch on the second day one, but it was a 'perfect' game).

Now, my 'tell'. Kairyuu said quite a lot of things that game, i would

REALLY

recommend that if you wish to vote me over this that you read the thread, if nothing else it's interesting. I've linked it above, just read D1 and the end.

Kairyuu, after being hounded for the gambit all game (more for using it in a newbie game than for it being a bad gambit), agreed not to use it again in a newbie game. Now we're deviating into hypotheticals, because i'm now talking about if he'd claimed doc this game.

If he'd claimed doc this game, he'd have been lying when he said that he wouldn't use it again in a newbie game, not a good start i would say. Thinking meta, i'd have to wonder if he wasn't in fact trying the same gambit and was trying something new, ie not lying due to a technicality. If he did this, he was 1 of 2 things, the doc or a scum.

Why would you do it as Scum Kairyuu? For interests sake? To try it out, see how it goes? Since it worked so brilliantly the first time, why not try it out as scum? You're playing a game after all, the way to get better at it is to try new things.

Why would I have to work out how to respond to it? If you had done it in this game I would not have believed that you were a vanilla townie, simple as that. I would have worked off my belief that you were either the doc or scum. As a townie, I don't really want to be in the position of thinking some is either the doc or scum.

I'll post regarding Kairyuu's Korts/Chaos gambit in a sec.

[Sando]

Ok, there are 2 issues here, and i brought them up in one of my posts (#41), and that is the argument between Korts vs Kairyuu and Kairyuu vs Chaos, i shall from now on refer to these as KvK and KvC.

What are they about, in my opinion?

KvK was based around Korts complaint regarding Kairyuu 'random' voting. I personally think it is a very silly argument, but hey, it gets discussion going. It's all based on semantics in my opinion.

Also, everyone should please take a stance on the debate between myself and Korts. It's for something I'm working on.

Kairyuu asked for our opinions on the debate between him and Korts. I provided it:

Re: Kairyuu vs Korts
I think it's fairly obvious that if you wanted me to declare for a 'side', then I'd be on Kairyuu's side. I don't think that Korts seems scummy, but he seems more scummy than Kairyuu if that counts for anything. I still think it's a pretty big stretch to get so offended, or at least seem to, over what amounts to semantics with words.

And unless i misunderstood the question, i stand by this. In my view, Korts got 'angry' at Kairyuu for random voting when he was in fact arbitrarily voting. He also didn't like that Kairyuu seemingly made a big deal out of it. I think it was very semantic of Korts, although i felt that it promoted discussion, which is good.

I should point out that my 'taking your side' was purely on an argument regarding the semantics of random voting, it had nothing to do with you accusing Chaos, which i addressed in my next paragraph:

Re: Kairyuu vs Korts
I think it's fairly obvious that if you wanted me to declare for a 'side', then I'd be on Kairyuu's side. I don't think that Korts seems scummy, but he seems more scummy than Kairyuu if that counts for anything. I still think it's a pretty big stretch to get so offended, or at least seem to, over what amounts to semantics with words.

Note that i made sure to seperate these 2 things, you're now trying to tie them back together to make a fairly weak case.

I agreed that there was some scumminess to Chaos's actions, although now that you've retracted them, I guess i now disagree with you. I still believe that his unvote was scummy, whether or not you say it is a scumtell or not.

However, I did not feel that you had built a sufficient case on Chaos to make me change my vote from Japles to Chaos. I think my quoted text speaks for itself really, I saw your point regarding Chaos but I didn't think it merited a vote, still didn't even when I went through and pointed out why i thought it was scummy with a timeline of sorts.

I just want to be clear, I seperated my answers between the KvK debate and KvC debate, i think you're taking my KvK answer and applying it to the KvC debate.

[Sando]

Kairyuu and Chaos, scum.

Why? Well lets see:

Random vote: Chaos40 for being the last person to post before me.

@Korts:

It's not the fact that Kairyuu's vote was arbitrary that bugs me. It's the fact that he explicitly stated that it's random, pre-emptively defending against any fake cases that might be built on it and giving him another reason to hop off the wagon in case it builds up.

I wonder, does the fact that it has become a serious vote since I made it change your opinion of it? As it stands, I didn't like Chaos' response. He backtracked a good deal when I questioned him, and I find that suspicious. So yeah, the vote is serious.

If Kairyuu is scum, Chaos is more likely as well--random voting a scumpartner is not unheard of by far, and with the attempt at denying any real responsibility for the vote I smell distancing.

It's a valid strategy, but quite a foolish one to use in a Newbie game. When an IC votes a Newbie partner, said partner is going to feel rather more pressured than if anyone else voted them; therefore making them much more likely to slip up and get lynched.

Why is this odd? Kairyuu got accused of being linked to Chaos because he voted for him. What does he do? He makes his vote 'serious'. He then says that it would be a silly thing to do in a newbie game, however, this is a quote from the 'doc' game that this blew up over:

The only way to teach is to play at your best. I like this play because it gives me the opportunity to boost the activity levels of the thread by generating a major issue to discuss, which people can't hide from. A newbie game is still a game of mafia, and handling it with kiddie gloves only serves to hurt the newbies who are trying to get a feel for how it is played on this site. So yeah, I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

and

If they're confused, then they should just keep asking questions until they understand. I'm not really seeing why you are worried about being overly gentle on the new players. If you do that then they think they'll be able to get the same treatment in a larger game and might not be able to deal with the extra pressure. Again, all people need to do is ask questions. That's what the ICs are here for.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=50

Posts 50 and 68 respectively in the game i linked. So Kairyuu has changed his mind and is advocating playing differently in this game when he said clearly in the other game that ICs should play hard. Also, while it is apparently a silly move, you also send a signal to your scumbuddy to not worry about the vote by saying that when an IC scumbuddy votes a newbie it puts pressure on them. This is pretty subtle in saying that he shouldn't feel pressured, but when combined with your previous comments, it seems like a nice way to look like you're pressuring him when you're not.

Now i figure if i can start getting you to talk about a previous game, you'll screw up, and you did, i just didn't notice till now. You've changed your mind from 'don't treat newbies with kids gloves' to 'IC scum need to be careful not to put pressure on their partners in newbie games'. I think the reason you've changed your mind is because you're now scum.

Then we have this revelation:

My case on Chaos is utter crap in my eyes.

Wow, people start actually looking at Chaos in depth, and now the case is 'utter crap'. This is pure distancing, you lead the charge on your protege scum, then once you FORCE people to associate their vote on chaos with agreeing with you, you pull the rug out from under them, thereby destroying any scumhunting on chaos. It was nice, i like it, how did you do it? With this little gem:

Also, everyone should please take a stance on the debate between myself and Korts

Then when i reply regarding the Kairyuu vs Korts debate, you attack me for my views on the Kairyuu vs Chaos.

You also say that i'm buddying up to an IC, yet the argument was between 2 ICs and you asked us to take sides... You deliberately manipulated someone (me) into getting the tag of buddying up to an IC, there was no way to avoid it.

Not before your buddy can find something 'scummy' in my post though.

Do you mean that last sentence as, you were wondering how to go along with it as town, or how to avoid getting stuck in it as scum?

I respond to this, and Kairyuu takes over the 'scumhunting' for Chaos, that's nice of him, don't you think? This is after:

Ojanen: Interesting, but not scummy. I like the questions. It shows you're trying to scumhunt.
Sando: Essentially the same as Ojanen. Putting actual effort into the game.

Now, fine that he changes his mind, but it seems pretty oportunistic in light of everything else to jump on someone you previously thought was 'interesting, but not scummy'.

This all feels like amazing distancing from Kairyuu, he didn't just vote on Chaos, he pulls his vote in such a way that noone else can really vote for Chaos. I still don't feel that Chaos has defended himself adequately, and Kairyuu's defence is:

2. My second, and main, part of the gambit was my case on Chaos. His unvote was a null tell in my mind (it could be scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but when he defended himself I got the impression of him being town, so I ran with it). He has defended himself rather well, and looks decently pro-town in my eyes.

His unvote was a null tell, but could have been scummy... And when he defended himself, he got the impression that he was town, that's some pretty good scumhunting Kairyuu, thanks for sticking to your convictions like the rulebook says we should.

Kairyuu has distanced, changed his mind from his previous newbie game, and manipulated me into the tag of IC buddying. He's also effectively killed discussion regarding his previous 'suspect' based off his gut. All well and good to vote with your gut, don't destroy the possibility of us discussing it without looking scummy. Kairyuu, you're scum.

Unvote - Vote: Kairyuu

FOS: Chaos40

Why the vote for Kairyuu, other than that he's scum? Well I'm convinced of Kairyuu, but I'm still not convinced that Japles isn't scum. The other reason that Kairyuu could be coming after me is that i refuse(d) to remove my vote from Japles. I think the most likely explanation is Kairyuu/Chaos as scum, but i don't discount the possibility of Kairyuu/Japles.

Look forward to hearing from you all, all of you you lurking bums, this just got good!

[Sando]

Sorry, a friend of mine is reading this and pointed out to me that i misquoted, myself of all people. Post 56, i posted the Kairyuu vs Korts quote twice, the second quote should be:

Re: Kairyuu's accusation of Chaos
I can see Kairyuu's point regarding Chaos40, when pressed to promote discussion, merely unvoted, which would seem to kill discussion rather than promote it. I can see why you feel he's scummy, but considering the above, I'd rather keep my vote on Japles for the moment.

God i look stupid now, considering i said "Note that i made sure to seperate these 2 things". So yeah, this quote should be my 3rd quote in 56. It's referenced from post 41.

I did in fact seperate them quite well, thank you very much, in my original post 41.

[Sando]

This game just got quite a bit more interesting. Expect a nice, long post addressing every one of your points tomorrow Sando.

Oh, and thanks for the OMGUS by the way. It definitely tells me I hit this one out of the park.

confirm vote: Sando

Am i correct in thinking that OMGUS would be voting for you simply (and basically only) because you've voted/made a case against me? Assuming i am...

I've explained why it isn't OMGUS. When you started taking me out of context and i started feeling manipulated, I went back and reread the thread and some of the 'doc' thread, then i posted my thoughts. You forced me to respond to your accusations, in writing them i realised how manipulative you were being. You were a lot more obvious with your manipulations in your last newbie game, and you seem to have changed a lot since then, both in actions and views. Considering you were vanilla then, that doesn't bode well for you being vanilla here.

Feel free to correct my view of OMGUS, you making a case against me where i felt manipulated and taken out of context, combined with me knowing that i'm townie, set me to looking at the person accusing me. I didn't think this is OMGUS, but i realise that you want people to think that's why I'm doing this, and i respect that, scum.

By the way, as an IC, how come that you know that a quick lynch is almost never good for town, you know i'm at L-2 (you just posted) and yet make no mention of it. Thanks for confirming my views on you.

P.S. I've replied

a lot

today and will continue to if discussion continues, i have the day off, i wont be like this every day.

[Sando]

Unvote. Vote: Sando

Looking back on the posts you've made since Kairyuu's attack on me began. You were the only main supporter of the case, Ojanen being another but only stating that she could see the point and not making much of it.

I checked back to see exactly what you were bringing to the table against me and, other than responding to my question regarding Kairyuu's previous game the only main point you brought up was a lengthy post doing nothing but reiterating Kairyuu's points, interspersed with quotes from the two of us. Yet despite all of this you never voted me. I was on the brink of voting for you earlier when I called you out on your previous statement but now my suspicions are more solidified.

Your first paragraph seems really bad, here's what i actually said:

Re: Kairyuu's accusation of Chaos
I can see Kairyuu's point regarding Chaos40, when pressed to promote discussion, merely unvoted, which would seem to kill discussion rather than promote it. I can see why you feel he's scummy, but considering the above, I'd rather keep my vote on Japles for the moment.

If you think this is being the 'main supporter' i'd hate to see what the other supporters were doing. I basically said exactly what you're saying Ojanen said, 'Ojanen being another but only stating that she could see the point and not making much of it'.

I didn't make much of it, so i didn't vote you, i didn't even FOS you. I saw his point, still didn't think you were scum. You questioned me on it, and i responded to that, i still didn't think you were scum, so i didn't vote you.

You asked me to clarify my position, so i did, and that get's me accused of parroting Kairyuu.

So here's the breakdown for you:

- Kairyuu accuses Chaos, asks for opinions.
- I agree that Kairyuu has a point, but decline to vote as i don't think Chaos is scum.
- Chaos gets in my face (not Kairyuu's btw), asks me to explain
- I explain, funnily enough, because i was agreeing with Kairyuu's points to begin with, just not his conclusion, i basically used his points.

You've jumped on the Sando bandwagon very quickly, for some ridiculous reasons (one of which being that i

didn't

vote for you, yet was the main supporter against you).

I'm sticking with my FOS on you, you're scummy mate.

[Sando]

I'll post on this once I have a chance to go through it in a few hours.

Quickly, if you use the 'quote' button it'll do it. The other way is that instead of {quote}, type {quote="Chaos40"}.

Obviously change the brackets back to [ ]. End it with {/quote} and that'll create a quote of 'Chaos40 said'.

[Sando]

That is the only thing that Ojanen said in response to the case on me. You made a sub-section of one of your posts, but following that you proceeded to make a long post which, as I've already stated did nothing but reiterate Kariyuu's points.

I didn't say that I said the same thing as Ojanen, I said that " I basically said exactly what you're saying Ojanen said", there's a difference there.

Precisely, why would you have had to respond to it? And since you seem so sure of what you'd think and believe if the gambit was pulled, why were you in this frame of mind earlier?

Are you deliberately misreading what i said, or do you not understand that it's part of my writing style (and speaking/debating style to ask a question and then answer it myself. I asked myself why i would have think on how to respond, then i answered it. If you don't understand why I don't want to be in the position of thinking someone is either the doc or scum (at the same time, Im obviously happy to think someone is one or the other), then I'm a little worried.

You're trying to pull apart my argument, and it's very weak. You didn't actually address my answer, just pulled the first sentence out of context, and your subsequent question I've already answered. If you're not satisfied with my answer, don't just ask again, push on specific points.

I was tossing around in my head trying to work out how to respond to it if you did it here.

And, as minor point, but a point nevertheless.

Wait, what? Are you now saying that this is a minor point? This is what this whole thing has blown up over, and now you're saying it's a minor point? I'm at L-2 with 2 ICs on me, and it's a 'minor point'?

Mind pointing out in which of my posts I asked for that? I looked over everything I've written so far and I can't find it. You seemed to "parrot" if I can use the phrase with no provocation whatsoever, so kindly don't put words in my mouth.

You're right, I've reread it, and you didn't really push me. I felt 'pushed' because i felt your answer to my post, as well as others, was unsatisfactory. I felt the need to clarify what my view was, so that you could not claim to not understand my position.

And i'm pretty sure your last paragraph is quoting someone else.

You've misinterpreted me, seemingly taken me out of context, although that could be a misunderstanding, and i still believe in the case for you can Kairyuu being scum. You have, however, found one part of my case against you where i was wrong, well done, should we just ignore the rest?

You've set me up as the 'main supporter' of a failed scumhunt against you by Kairyuu, when i had the lowest level of support for it, and you knew it.

Kairyuu also didn't let it play out, he saw an oportunity with the doc game comment and went for it. I hadn't even voted for Chaos40 and i've 'fallen into his trap'. That's a pretty pathetic trap, if to fall into it you don't even need to vote for the bait (or even FOS for that matter)

[Sando]

Since I'm going to bed soon, and last time i did that 3 votes came up on me, and 3 more would be 1 more than needed to hammer, i think we should have the quick-lynch talk. I personally think that one reason Kairyuu didn't post a longer reply earlier was that he was hoping you'd quick-lynch and he wouldn't have to worry about the annoyance of being questioned by me.

I am currently at L-2, this means that 2 more votes and i'm deadsies. I've read a few games, I'm yet to see one where a quick-lynch is used beneficially, or even mentioned in a positive light, on D1. A quick lynch effectively kills discussion, especially when one of the main discussers is lynched.

As townies we want as much information as possible, quick lynches stop the flow of information. They are almost universally good for scum, hence why we don't want to do it.

Discussion should probably be had regarding the fallout of someone flipping as a townie. You've just had this big bandwagon on someone, and they turn townie, someone screwed up somewhere.

But for now, I want to make sure that anyone voting from here on out realises what they're doing. If you want to hammer, fine, but making the hammer vote then saying 'oh bugger i didn't mean to happen' is incredibly bad for town. Make sure you know what you're doing.

Also, a hammer, and potentially the L-1 vote, will be seen as scummy unless backed up by very good reasoning. Personally i think this is the biggest reason not to hammer me, as i believe both scum are voting for me already, so someone else hammering will give them ammunition they need against another townie.

The L-1 vote is hugely dangerous, and shouldn't be used to pressure. L-2 is pressure enough at this stage of the game. L-1 makes it incredibly easy for a scum to come along and hammer, claim they didn't mean to, and they lynch a townie while giving away only a smallish tell. L-1 means you want this person hammered.

Remember, if you lynch a townie D1, their opinions are the only opinions of a confirmed townie that you have, you want to have as much of it as possible before doing it. And if they turn scum, the more they talk, the more likely they are to get linked to their scumbuddy.

Also, I'm not sure why I'm talking about this and not an IC. I think one of the ICs is scum, and since a quick lynch on me would be good i can understand him not talking on it i guess.

Night people, i eagerly await Kairyuu's reply. I wont be responding for nearly 24 hours from now most probably.

[Sando]

After looking back through the topic and reading your posts in depth, especially between Kairyuu making his observation and the revelation of his plan I will concede that you never voted or FoS'd me during that period.

Also, you mentioned Kairyuu's gambit as a "failed scumhunt." Do you believe that Kairyuu would abandon an attack on me and attempt to turn it into a gambit when he had no-one directly defending me (excpet for myself obviously)? I could see him backing down if I had other people convinced by my defence, but whilst you were the only one arguing against me alongside him, the entire group still remained on the fence, hardly reason for him to abandon an alleged "scumhunt".

These 2 together were why it would have failed even if he was a townie, which he isn't. It was doomed to failure since he's scum and his bait was scum, but for arguments sake we'll assume otherwise, and just talk about why it was bad.

- He put you out as bait without telling anyone, which is good, and said 'hey guys, this is a serious vote, tell me what you think'
- He got someone to agree with his apparently bad reasons for thinking you were scum, good so far from him, but it fails from here on out.
- He failed to get anyone to either vote for you, or FOS you. If you set a trap for someone, you don't spring it as soon as they put 1 foot in the trap, you wait till they're well into the trap that they can't get out. If he was truly just waiting for someone to say "you have a point but not good enough to warrant my vote" before lynching them, then that's either the most pathetic scumhunt ever, or he's scum.
- So either he just got over-excited, or he saw an oportunity with my apparent scumtell regarding the doc gambit. He saw that he no longer needed the trap to get a townie lynched, and just claimed that I had 'fallen into his trap' to add a little weight to his argument.

How do i know it was a failed trap? Because I'm townie, but only 2 people know it's a failed trap, me and Kairyuu, cause he's scum.

I'll address your last point tonight Chaos40, i think we've just misunderstood each other again. The bit that you proved wrong about my argument was my accusation that you pushed me to explain my viewpoint early on, which you didn't, reread the sentence with that in mind. More on this later, and Kairyuu can post too

[Sando]

I was suspicious of you, ever since the post that I called you on. I admit you've constructed a defense against it but excuse me if I don't quite believe you. I may have misunderstood you, but the way you constructed the argument and wrote it down was very confusing, which does little to assuage my suspicions. Kairyuu's argument was very convincing and, once hearing his take on the gambit he played I felt confident enough to vote you.

Can you please note what part of my defence you don't believe? Just saying 'i don't believe you' doesn't give me much oportunity to defend myself. I'd rather my defence wasn't purely about you and Kairyuu being scum, therefor i'm not. As you said, I've tried to defend myself against the accusations of scumminess, or at least explain them, but if you just say 'i don't believe you', then there's not much I can do to defend myself.

And if you find my argument confusing, ask for clarification, don't just dismiss it. It sounds like you don't want clarification on my arguments...

[Sando]

All of these quotes are from Kairyuu unless otherwise stated, too much work to make them all say 'Kairyuu wrote'.

OK. So after reading that entire post, all I got was that it was irrelevant waffle and a shot at my credibility. If this is part of your full case then you need to rethink it.

I thought i did a decent job at deliniating these, maybe not. It’s not, it’s part of my defence of myself, my case on you comes later.

One vote a successful bandwagon does not make. I am reasonably certain that, had others jumped on Chaos with votes, you would have been right there with them.

I don't think i said anything about Bandwagoning chaos40, except that i wasn't. And now your 'trap' that you set out has been sprung by someone you were "reasonably certain" would vote for your bait, but didn't actually. Wow, that's a pretty impressive trap you set there Kai.

Explain this. Why do people need to meta me before voting you?

I didn’t say meta you (or didn't mean to say/imply it), although I think I said they could. If they want to understand what I said about the doc gambit somewhat, they should read part of the thread, you trying to get people to make uninformed decisions like this seems pretty odd for a townie.

How does that even make logical sense? I mention it being bad play, and even site an example game, and that means that I am scum doing it? This is a huge reach for something that doesn't even make sense. Read the IC guide that Vel posted a link to in post 0. My role as an IC would trump my role as scum. If I were scum and doing that, telling people that it is bad play is terribly unethical, and I would deserve to get kicked from the game immediately and banned from ICing for teaching people wrong information just to get a win as scum.

Doc Game Kai says: "Don't treat newbies with kid gloves"
This Game Kai says: "Treat scumbuddies with kid gloves"

It's not a complete contradiction, but it is at least a partial contradiction. Changing your play style between games would be a tell in my books. Also, claiming that you're still developing your play style simply doesn't wash.

First of all, repeating it does not make it true. Second of all, if you read all of my games in the order I played them you will notice major discrepancies among games of the same alignment. I am still developing a consistent playstyle. Either way, you didn't get me to do what you claim you did, and saying that you planned it all along is scummy as heck.

I thought this was your second IC game? Am i mistaken? I'm comparing your IC game to your IC game, apples to apples. I'm not trying to say that I planned to catch you in this way. What I'm trying to say is that I felt that there was a better than average chance that either you or Korts was scum. Your argument seemed pretty contrived, and I remember reading that scum often try to start arguments they can easily walk away from at the beginning of the game. I wasn't sure, I only had a vague feeling, so I thought I'd try and get you talking about your previous game. I didn't mean to come across as sounding scummy in my post, although I can see how people interpreted it that way, I just wanted to create more dialogue. Also, i figured that opening you up to you contradicting what you'd said in a previous game was a good way to create a huge amount of oportunity for you to slip up, and I think you did.

Then when i reply regarding the Kairyuu vs Korts debate, you attack me for my views on the Kairyuu vs Chaos.

That was kinda the point, which I mentioned when I voted you. This is IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis), which is what approximately 80% of these first 3 posts have been. It's one of Tarhalindur's Standard Tells that I mentioned earlier, and it seems to be an attempt to make it look like you are building a huge case against me when you are creating one or two points out of thin air and OMGUSing me.

and also in relation to this:

Nope. I addressed them separately, and your single accusation in this post (that my case is weak because one of my points was weak) is a straw man.

What? For the purposes of me making one of Tarhalindurs Standard Tells, you've taken these together, but now you're saying that you addressed them seperately? Please explain, this seems like deliberately taking me out of context.

Saying "I agree with Kairyuu/Korts in their debate" =/= taking my case against Chaos and spitting it back out almost verbatim as your own. Different scenarios even. I didn't manipulate you into doing anything. I predicted what a scum would likely do in a given situation, and you fit the description, so I voted you.

I've addressed this in my discussion with Chaos, I agreed with you in the KvK argument about semantics, but didn't read much into it. I also agreed with you regarding Chaos, and also did not read much into it. I've said this so many times i'm getting muscle memory from typing it so often. What you did was manipulate me saying that i take your side in the KvK argument about semantics, and turn it into me taking a much harder line against Chaos than i actually did.

Vote Chaos all you like. Korts still finds him suspicious and I haven't said anything to him, have I? If you are going to make generalizations then make sure they are valid. Plus, my point about distancing still stands.

I FOS'd him and voted you already, but thanks for giving me permission.

No, you pretty much proved that is was by doing something very similar to what I did myself D1 in the first game I was scum (Mini Theme 658: Facedown and Thirsty Mafia, the one I played with Korts) after getting a few votes on me. I waffled for awhile and then OMGUSed on of the people voting me. I got away with it by subverting the OMGUS call, but I'll not be fooled by my own trick.

Already done. A note though. I am quite impressed by the way you are addressing me as 'scum' instead of by name now. It's quite a good intimidation tactic, and one I've used myself several times.

I asked how it is OMGUS, and whether my definition is wrong, all you've done is basically say 'shut up, it is OMGUS, i've even done it before as scum'. I do like your stance here, you're actually being subtle in implying that because you've done it before, i must be scum because you think i'm doing it here, nice. Thanks regarding me calling you scum, I like it. I take it that when you say 'you've used it yourself' that you're again implying that you were scum when you used it? Subtle, I like it.

I like quicklynches. As soon as I am confident that someone is scum I want them lynched so that I can move on to the next scum. It's the way I play, and it is reasonably effective (which, of course, you know, seeing as we lynched the scum roleblocker on page 8 and had a 24 hour D2 that ended the game in Newbie 750, which you seem to only want to cite when it serves your purposes). You can stop taking jabs at my credibility already. None of them have been valid, and I highly doubt that any will.

D2 quick lynches and D1 quick lynches are the same? Other than this fight between me and you, we basically have no information on people. There has been a lot of lurking that's been allowed simply because of the amount of dialogue between 4-5 people. A quick lynch without those people contributing is a bad thing for town. And no, I will not stop questioning your credibility.


@all

What actually forms the divide between myself and Korts in this case is the fact that I was deliberately acting mildly scummy to get Korts to criticize me (of course, the 'random vote' issue was unintentional, but it served as a good starting point). Someone paying attention to that, and to what Korts was saying, would, as a townie (not 100%, but my estimate is that it's better than 60%) side with Korts and find me scummy, possibly even enough for a vote. A scum, on the other hand, would probably be more focused on the fact that I had a decent case on an easy townie target, and would side with me in order to have that route available to them in the event that the wagon gained steam.

This is Kai's post about his 'gambit' with fake-voting Chaos. It doesn't make sense, plan and simple. If a townie were more likely to find Kai scummy and respond with a vote, and assuming Kai was a townie, why wouldn't scum take the oportunity to target Kai as well. If Kai's logic is that the case against himself should be better, then the scum would surely jump at the opportunity to lynch a townie IC. The only way a scum would vote for Chaos is if Kai was scum and they didn't want to vote their partner.

So under Kai's gambit, the only way scum would fall for his trap is if Kai was in fact scum. This seems like a horrible misstep from you Kai.

Your gambit also assumes that Korts is townie, how do you know that he's townie? You acted scummy before you could have possibly gotten a read on Korts, and yet your gambit is designed to get him, as a townie, to attack you. This also seems like a huge slip from you.

You also haven't addressed any of the questions i raised regarding your 'gambit' and apparently 'trapping' me.
- Why did you think you had caught scum before they had voted for your bait, or FOS'd him even.
- Given that you claim to be a townie, and by your own admission you looked scummy, why wouldn't a scum take the oportunity to accuse you instead of Chaos or Korts? You're an IC, getting rid of a townie IC would seem to be a great move for the scum.

After all that, I'm definitely confirmed in my vote on Kairyuu.

Korts (and others), if you're still convinced that I'm scum, i think you should start discussion on what happens if and when i turn over townie. I am obviously pretty set on Kairyuu at the moment, if i were to turn scum, you can discount pretty much everything I've said (cept for links/distancing that you think i've done). But when i turn townie, I hope that you have started discussion regarding what to do the next day. If i'm right and Kairyuu is scum, I would think it a pretty safe bet that he'd kill the non-scum IC overnight, we don't want to miss out on your input regarding the result of a D1 lynch.

And by the way, other than what I admit is a fairly bad comment from me regarding the doc comment, have I done anything else to make people overly suspicious? Kairyuu is accusing me of OMGUS and saying that makes me look scummy, and I think i've explained my position on that. I think the 'falling into Kais trap' has been thoroughly debunked. I would like to defend my actions, can anyone who feels I've done something scummy other than those 3 actions please comment and I'll seek to address them. If my answers to those 3 actions don't assuage your suspicions, please tell me how/why and I'll seek to clear it up. 1 of them I can really see how people feel it's scummy, and I think i've explained the other 2, but please help me clear up any confusion.

I think i need to respond to Chaos as well, I'll do that in a bit.

[Sando]

However, once you've agreed that I made a good point, you ask for me to just ignore the rest of the entire argument. Again, this seems too obvious of an attempt at placation to be serious but I'd like to get your own reaction/explanation of it.

This was me being sarcastic. I was saying that you were disagreeing with one part of my argument and ignoring all the other points that I had. I want you to address all of my points, not just the ones you think are wrong. I wasn't suggesting that you ignore my argument, or any argument, i was suggesting that you had already ignored my argument.

and here it's a gambit. I'd just clarification on which you surrently believe it to be.

This is asking for a definition. I’ll defer to the ICs on this if they want to disagree with my thoughts on whether to call it a gambit. I think it’s a gambit, or at least a claimed gambit from Kai. What I mean by gambit is that it was a plan he had from the beginning to try and achieve a result. The gambit that he claims he’s doing is setting up an argument to catch scum trying to lynch a townie.

When i said failed scumhunt, i was referring to your accusation against me. I felt that your accusations are about my association with failed scumhunt, and Kairyuu's are about me 'falling' for a gambit. It's pretty semantic, but i can see why you've picked up on it, but I'm referring to the same thing with both, just one is referring to how i think you've interpreted it, and one to how i think Kai has interpreted.

I’ve explained why I think it is a bad gambit, and why I think it is in fact a massive tell against Kairyuu in my previous post.

If anyone would like to disagree with my definition, please say so, but for the moment, this is what I feel it means.

The Slip

Heh, love the capitilisation, makes it sound like it's the only one in the game so far

Also, other than 'The Slip' (I shall dub thee 'The Slip' from now on, hehe), what else about what I've said makes you feel I'm scummy? I realise why people think it was a scumtell, but I would hope a D1 lynch would come down to more than that considering how much discussion we've had.

[Sando]

-twitch-

Ya know, I like long post as much as the next guy, but this is rather excessive. I'll respond later tonight or tomorrow, depending on if/when I can get my homework done.

A quick note though. Your last two posts are complete misreps of everything I said. Why exactly haven't you been lynched yet?

Yours was bigger than mine! At least your last one compared to my response, much bigger! ('yours is bigger than mine', i hoped never to be forced to say that to another guy )

Only 1 of my last 2 posts actually refers to you, although my last post refers to you in passing, it makes no real claims against you. That is, unless you want to claim that Chaos's position is your position? So i'm going to go with me not being lynched due to my last last 2 posts NOT being a misrep of you, among other things. But would that make you misrepresenting me? I think so

Japles, you've quote 3 comments by me, none of which include an argument from me. Also, I've already stated my reasons for 2 of them, I've said time and time again why I have gone into detail regarding his last game, I didn't really want to get into this much detail, but I felt that I needed to to help explain my comments somewhat.

As to why I voted Kairyuu and FOS'd Chaos, while still saying you could be scum. Well i took a hard line against Kairyuu and Chaos, not just because they were scum, but because I knew I'd be accused of OMGUS. I felt that my case on Kairyuu was good, and I think it's better now. I felt that Chaos was linked, and I thought I had some other reasons outside of that to think he was scum, still do think I have some reasons. However, my initial suspicion had always been of you, Japles, and it had not been satisfactorily explained, still hasn't in my opinion. I couldn't discount the possibility that Kairyuu was attacking the person who was attacking his scumbuddy (me attacking you), so i mentioned it right at the end, and haven't since, because you didn't reply.

By the way, this quote from me is way out of line:

Kairyuu and Chaos, scum.

Why the vote for Kairyuu, other than that he's scum? Well I'm convinced of Kairyuu, but I'm still not convinced that Japles isn't scum. The other reason that Kairyuu could be coming after me is that i refuse(d) to remove my vote from Japles. I think the most likely explanation is Kairyuu/Chaos as scum, but i don't discount the possibility of Kairyuu/Japles.

This is a blatant misquote or taking me out of context. For reference to others, the quote is taken from post #58, page 3. You have taken my first sentence from that post (and it's a long post), and put it with the last paragraph of my post. Taken in isolation like you've put it makes it seems like I have a completely different opinion to what I stated, repeatedly. I'm really not happy that you've done it, if it's deliberate, it's very scummy, if you didn't realise the implications and just wanted to discuss those 2 points, then it's just a really rude thing to do. However given you wanted to make a point about me flip-flopping between you and Chaos, I can only assume it was deliberate.

Japles lurking, his failure to answer a simple question regarding it being scummy to 'want to just fit it in', his attacking Chaos while defending Kairyuu, despite them sharing the same opinion of who is scum (Chaos and Kairyuu), and his complete lack of argument and just agreeing with Kairyuu really brings you forward as scum in my eyes. And that was before you completely took me out of context with what amounts to a misquote. And Japles, you've completely ignored all of my arguments against Kairyuu, yet still managed to dismiss them, that's a pretty good effort.

Oh, and while I'm at it:

A good decoy plan and you really got people involved in that for a good page or so. Seems to have brought out some very noticeable things.

How do you say this, and fail to even look at any of the comments about why is was a BAD plan? Ojanen and Korts expressed concern about his results, and I've posted multiple times as to why not only it being bad, but full of scumtells. AGAIN, you've managed to completely dismiss my arguments without even looking at them.

Japles, you've managed to make me doubt myself in thinking Chaos is scum, in the worst way possible, making me think you're scum.

And Kairyuu (and all), sorry for the long posts, but look at it this way, we shouldn't be lynching someone this early anyway (although we're getting close to a timeline where I'm happier to lynch), so this space would have been filled with people posting anyway. You wouldn't be reading more, you'd just be reading the same in smaller bursts.

[Sando]

Well, I have read all your arguments against Kariyuu and I don't agree with them.

And now, you have given me, in that last post, what was needed to push me over the line...

Vote: Sando

Wow that was well thought out. Especially given that i specifically made a post saying that if you don't want to seem scummy, you can't put someone at L-1 with such a pathetic argument. If you want to get someone hammered, fine, but make it well reasoned.

I didn't want to have to post again so soon, but I feel I have to at L-1.

PLEASE IGNORE THIS WHOLE POST IF I FLIP SCUM

So I'm going to get lynched, bad, but not the worst result. I will flip townie, so I'll be the only confirmed townie in the game, so I'll post stuff now before getting hammered.

Kairyuu:

Kairyuu is my obvious choice for lynching, and I've made many and long arguments against him, although Japles has eloquently refuted them So I wont talk much about why he's scum, merely to point out that it looks like he's succeeded in getting a townie lynched.

Chaos:

Chaos was my obvious choice for his partner, he had done some scummy things in my mind, and my main target at the time, Japles, was being quiet. He was also linked to Kairyuu, so that was a mark against him. However I feel that I've pushed Chaos really hard, I've questioned everything he's said, even where I believed what he was saying, I wanted to keep pushing. I think he's responded in an honest fashion, this is fairly gut, but his posts strike me as sincere. More and more of our differences have turned out to be misunderstandings, honest mistakes on both our parts. I still don't think he's answered all the questions, and I still think he's done some scummy things, but not enough for a vote, which I've never done on him btw.

Japles:

Wow, his last few posts have been the dodgiest of the dodgy. I cant ignore just how scummy they have been. He's completely ignored all arguments that I've made, and when pushed merely states that he 'doesn't believe them'. He's put me at L-1, with absolutely no reason. And i haven't even brought up here what I said in my last post about him, he's dodgy as hell.

He's also linked to Kairyuu, i continued to attack Japles after his post, and then Kairyuu attacked me, completely taking the focus off Japles.

What is scums plan now:

Kairyuu has, i guess pretty effectively, set my arguments up as OMGUS. I can only say, once again, that they are not. It has taken me a while to realise why Kairyuu was so insistent on me using OMGUS, and now I think it's because he thinks it's how he'll get out of a D2 lynch. But, he's making out that OMGUS is a scumtell by me, do not let him change his mind to it being the play of a bad townie. This is not OMGUS.

Kairyuu has made some huge slip-ups, I hope that after lynching me and me turning townie, you will re-read what I've said and continue to press him on it. Do not let me being lynched stop you from continuing the questioning on him

Again:

COMPLETELY IGNORE THIS POST IF I TURN SCUM.

Hell, you can ignore everything I say if i turn scum, but I wont, so I really hope you D2 lynch Kai.

My vote/FOS have changed in light of Japles ridiculous posts:

Confirm Vote: Kairyuu

FOS: Japles

[Sando]

And now, you have given me, in that last post, what was needed to push me over the line...

Vote: Sando

Also, how about you answer some of the questions/accusations against you instead of just putting someone at L-1 with what appears to be an OMGUS vote.

[Sando]

Thanks for the reply Ojanen.

- The Slip, yeah, that reply of mine wasn't good enough, and I clarified it later.

- I personally think the kid-glove comments are more relevant than you do. If you've read the game Kairyuu was very forceful in his statements that you shouldn't treat newbies with kid gloves. But this seems to be a matter of interpretation between us.

- Quicklynch talk. Taking those 2 statements in isolation, it does seem contradictory. However you need to have bolded the whole sentence to include "claim they didn't mean to", and it now looks like i'm a chump who's repeating himself . I'm presenting 2 scenarios, 1 is where a townie accidently hammers or hammers without thought, and seems scummy. The other is where a scum hammers on purpose, but claims they did it accidently, reducing their scumtell. They both give away a scumtell however, so I can see that my statement was a bit odd.

I think you're right that a scum wouldn't want to be lynched, just as much as a townie, and yes a scum doesn't want a quick lynch if it's on a scum. Yes, I'm trying to force people to think before they hammer, you should be definate in your convictions to hammer someone, whoever it is. I'm trying to make sure that anyone that hammers has and provides a good reason. If doing that scares someone, they shouldn't be hammering or are scum.

Also, scum getting a quicklynch on a townie is a great thing for them. And what i was also fatalistically saying was that 'hey, when i turn townie, the person who led (and now advocated) a quick lynch will and should appear a lot scummier'. I wanted to make sure that the opinion of a quick-lynch being bad for town was out there before i get lynched. Kai should have to defend his position on a quick-lynch before the lynch, not after, as it will be too easy to brush off after the lynch.

Seeing that Kai has unvoted, I'll stop being so rabid in replying immediately to everything till after he's posted

[Sando]

Ojanen, it basically means that if you were to pick any 2 people at the start of the game, the chances of you being right are ~2.5%. It doesn't matter which 2 you pick, same chances, assuming you don't use any reasoning. He's saying that if you pull out the 2 ICs just because they're ICs, and not because of their play, then you've just done the 'pick any 2 people' and your chances of being right are 2.5%. And yes, he's completely right in that regards.

Kairyuu.

1: Am I right in assuming this is only a newbie mistake if you're not scum?

2: No I didn't, i posted 2 long posts defending myself. It was while posting those that I started to feel manipulated by you, and i then posted a third accusing you and Chaos, but mainly you.

3: Read above, my first 2 posts were my defence, my third was my accusation, i specifically designed it that way to try and make it a little easier to follow.

4: You still haven't addressed a lot of the points that I've brought up against you.

5: See above, and below, i'll re-ask my questions and some new ones.

6: I've explained why it wasn't OMGUS, and I've shown repeatedly where you've taken me out of context, and all you've done is repeatedly claim it, with no evidence.

Some things I'd like answered:

1) From Ojanen:

-Kai's lack of opposition to quicklynch.
Seriously, we have almost no idea about a third of the players yet. He's very confident that this doesn't matter.

You're change from voting me to JL and Bekkatha I can understand from a townies POV, but not from the POV of someone who advocates a quicklynch. When I accused you of it being a tell for a scum IC, you said:

Others prefer methodical, swift Days, with a reasonably quick consensus lynch after some scumhunting. I am of that second group

You wanted a quicklynch, despite knowing that there were at least 2/3 people who had failed to respond, has your view on quicklynches changed? If not, since you now think i'm a newb townie, wouldn't it have a been a mistake to quicklynch me? This is especially true given that you guys put me at L-1 without requiring a response from the 2 people you're now accusing.

2) Regarding your trap/gambit.

- Why did you think you had caught scum before they had voted for your bait, or FOS'd him even?
- Given that you claim to be a townie, and by your own admission you looked scummy, why wouldn't a scum take the opportunity to accuse you instead of Chaos or Korts?
- You said that scum would jump on Korts because he was a townie, how did you know he was a townie?

3) Regarding Japles

- He voted for me after I lumped him in with you and Chaos as a passing reference, considering your crusade against OMGUS, do you think this was OMGUS from him? And if so, why are you not attacking him for it?
- What do you think about him putting someone at L-1 with no reasoning given?
- What do you think about his failure to actually address any of the problems that I've brought up, and just vote for me?

[Sando]

One other thing, separate from the whole me and Kairyuu thing. I've come to realise that my writing style (long-winded) isn't really appreciated/ is annoying for others, and neither is it conducive to getting people to listen/respond to me. I have to take some responsibility for Kairyuu not responding to some of my points given how much text they were rapped up in. I've made a definite effort to condense my posts, and I won't take any responsibility if Kai doesn't respond to my very clear questions in my last post. The same is true of my accusations of Japles, I feel they are perfectly clear and his lack of response is purely due to him not wanting to respond to them.

I also want to make clear that it is my writing style to be long-winded, it's not just me making filler to make my argument look bigger than it is. I always try and anticipate peoples misunderstandings to my points and address them in my posts before they ask them. I'm making a definite effort to shorten and condense my posts, mainly due to comments from you guys, I don't want to get accused of my style having changed making me scum, it's changed because you've basically asked me to.

So there's one thing I've definitely learned so far, and yes, i realise how silly it is to post a long-winded post saying I'm not going to be long-winded anymore

[Sando]

I said you didn't respond to some of my points, not that you didn't respond to some of my posts. The points regarding your trap/gambit that i posted in my previous post I don't feel you've responded to.

And I'm changing my style because it doesn't seem to be working. People aren't responding to what I'm saying regarding you and others, and people like Japles are getting away with brushing huge posts off with no regard. I don't know if it's the others in the game, or if it's because of my style, but if I try a different style and nothing changes, at least I know it's the people, and not my style. This is a learning game, I think it's the time to try out some things to see what is most effective.

And considering people seem not to like it, too many for them all to be scum, then I figure I should at least try.

[Sando]

I'll try and get something comprehensive later, but it's my birthday today, I might not have time for a day or 2.

Regarding the maths, Inifinis does have a point in that you need to work out the 'random 2' using 8 players instead of 9. Obviously you're not going to include yourself in that. So the chances of picking any 2 people completely randomly and them being scum are: 2/8 x 1/7 = 3.57%

However, i was thinking, and this was in relation to Kai's gambit, what are the chances that he randomly picked 2 people and 1 or both were scum? I haven't done maths in a while, but it would seem to be 1-(6/8 x 5/7) = 46.43% chance that of the 2 people you randomly pick, 1 or both will be scum.

Infinis did tend to falter off after he got 3.57% and started bringing in completely arbitrary numbers, which could be him trying to 'force' the numbers to give him the result that he wants. Seems a bit dodgy, but I also think Kai's case against him is pretty forced.

I'll try and post more later, some more relevant stuff, but at least a few more people are talking, which is good. And welcome Millar

[Sando]

Meta Game:

Poker, you set up a bluff by playing a consistent way so that people believe you’re doing that again next time you bluff.

Please expand upon both points mentioned here in your next comprehensive post. I have a sneaking suspicion that your predisposition to be being scum (given by the fact that you are still voting me), will lend to your thinking that anything I say will either be forced or weak.

I take it that this is a typo and should say “your predisposition to ME being scum”. Well your vote for him was based off post 114 for the most part from what I can see. The maths that Infinis brings in, after the 3.57% (I’ll address the 8vs9 thing in a minute), is completely arbitrary, and it’s really not maths after that point. But I can see what he’s trying to say. So while I think that his maths is fatally flawed, I think it is not a scummy attempt to make you look like scum. I also think he’s misunderstood your gambit, not misrepresented it, and I think I’ve had quite a bit of experience with the different this game

The second point against Infinis, the much more telling in my view, is his defence of me “he’s acquitted himself quite well”, followed by “But hopefully after a more thorough reread I will find that Sando's arguments may be strong or they may be weak”. These 2 almost directly contradict each other. However, while bad, I don’t think we need to vote him right now, I think we need to push him to provide his comprehensive re-read, and analyse that.

As to your case against Infinis, you accused him of making an accusation against you, which you seem to have taken back now? I think concluding that he is either accusing you of being scum or setting you up to be accused is a bit of stretch given what he wrote. I think he was more trying to point out why he didn’t agree with your gambit and its results. You said he was being a ‘hypocrite’, when what he was doing was not hypocritical, he was just wrong in what he did. And lastly you attack him for wishi-washiness, this seems to be your new catchphrase, you’re accusing all of us of it, I really don’t buy it at all as a tell. If he claims he’ll do something and doesn’t do it, then it’s a tell, but give him time to finalise his thoughts.

This was pretty much all that had been posted when I made my comment, more has been posted since, but you can’t hold me accountable for what gets said after I’ve said it. I don’t want to write too much more on this right now, if you want clarification ask for it, otherwise I’m waiting for Infinis to provide a more detailed re-read.

Kairyuu, maths time

Well, actually, not really, I think we agree on the maths, just not how to apply it. You feel that you should take the point of view when randomly picking 2 people, that you don’t assume that you’re townie. This basically means that you’ve decided to run your gambit before you get your PM on role. 2 things: 1, you still have to change the maths, as not only wouldn’t you choose yourself, but for the sake of the gambit, you couldn’t. 2, you’ve stated you wouldn’t run the gambit (or any gambit for that matter) as scum, therefore you must assume that you are a townie for the purposes of the maths. These aren’t subjective statements, they’re practical, logical, objective reasonings for why it should not include you in the maths.

As to my actual maths being right. Well my take was this, you pick 1 person out of 8 first up, you have a 75% chance that they will be townie. Now you choose another person, you have a 5 in 7 chance of them being townie (71.43%). Therefore you have 71.43% x 75% chance of them both being townie, or 53.57% chance. Therefore, you have a 46.43% chance of it being something else, ie 1 or both being scum.

Again, you've stated that you got a read on Korts and Chaos, which invalidates all maths, and I'm not trying to accuse you of anything with this maths, I just find it interesting in an intellectual way rather than a scummy way.

I’m still pretty busy, I’ll post more later tonight after I get back, prolly around 12 hours assuming i'm not too drunk, this is getting epically long anyway. But when you ask for clarification of points, clarification you get

[Sando]

Sorry, ignore that top paragraph regarding meta game and poker, it was notes that I'm taking, and I wrote this in word and forgot to delete it. It'll make a bit more sense later when i post later tonight.

[Sando]

Damn rugby, not only did that Tahs lose, but now Ojanen has competely beaten me to the post.

The whole Japles/Kairyuu thing is disturbing me a hell of a lot. Japles actions throughout have been really odd, Japles agreement that he was ‘just trying to fit it’ seemed incredibly scummy, but it got pushed to the sidelines when the whole Kai vs Sando thing blew up. Japles then put me at L-1 with absolutely no reasoning, and when pushed on it provided none either.

When I questioned Kai on this, he was having none of it, absolutely refused to post anything regarding Japles.

He gave a reason, but the reason was crap. I think he is suspicious, but not enough to warrant my vote or attention right now.

The reason Japles gave wasn’t crap, it was utter crap, there was absolutely nothing to it. Kai has been voting people left and right since then, but Japles has somehow avoided his attention, despite this obvious problem. It really does make very little sense, unless they’re scum together.

The other thing I wanted to bring up (but i think Infinis beat me to this one) is that I can’t work out the whole Korts and Kairyuu thing now. Kairyuu has attacked Josh Lyman and Bekkatha (now Millar13) for inactivity, yet completely ignores the pretty obvious active-lurking of Korts. Korts has been around and posting the odd small thing, with no substance, since his last substance post on the 2nd of April, where he voted me. Now I know that from reading Kai’s previous games and his reacting to Josh and Bekkatha, he has a pretty dim view of people lurking and is a strong advocate of it being a scumtell, yet he hasn’t even mentioned Korts lurking. Personally I feel we have some time to give to Korts to reply, but I’m very surprised that Kairyuu hasn’t brought up Korts yet has attacked the other 2 for lurking.

On the subject of attacking people for lurking, I thought that Kai let Josh L off the hook incredibly easily. Josh L posted a 2 sentence explanation and Kai was happy to accept that immediately, no questions asked. I honestly can’t understand this from the point of view of either a townie or a scum, Kai, can you please explain why you didn’t push Josh any harder, maybe get him to provide some input when he can?





I also need to explain my stupid posting of meta gaming and poker. It was in relation to Kai’s defence of his gambit, and his claim that he never gambits as scum. Well, I play a bit of poker, and anyone with a passing knowledge of the game knows about bluffing. There are 2 good opportunities for people to bluff in poker, when noone knows your playstyle at the start of a game, and later once you’ve developed a playstyle and can make people believe you’re following it.

Now Kai is well aware, especially given that I brought it up as a part of ‘The Slip’, that anyone in this game can go back and look at his previous games, so the option of bluffing when noone knows his playstyle is denied to him, although he did try to claim that he doesn’t have a defined playstyle at one point, something he later contradicts with his claim that he never gambits as scum, but you know…

That just leaves him the option of convincing us that he’s following his ‘normal’ playstyle while he does something else. This is the classic bluff, you play your 4-3 offsuit cards the same way as you normally play your A-K, convincing people that you have the A-K when in fact you have the 4-3. You can’t do this very often, but if you do it sparingly, it can be devastating, and almost impossible to pick.

What I’m trying to say is that you cannot just assume that because someone is playing the same way as they usually do, that they are the same alignment. It would be perfectly normal for a good player to set up a ‘normal’ persona for themselves so that they can bluff effectively as scum. If someone can’t act as their own ‘normal’ persona as scum, then they wont last long in this game.

Kai’s claim of ‘I never gambit as scum, therefore since I gambit’ed this game I’m not scum’, cannot be taken at face value. Firstly, he could be bluffing as stated above, and secondly, it wasn’t much of a gambit, he didn’t risk his partner unless his partner is either Korts or Chaos, although he claims this is the main reason he wouldn’t gambit.

All in all, I’ve changed my mind from Kai/Chaos to Kai/Japles, and the more I look at it, the more I think Japles is scum, and Kai just refusing to get drawn into a comment on Japles seems really dodgy as well. I’m open to comments on either at the moment, Ojanen certainly seems to be set of Japles more than Kai, that’s ok with me, although I would like to hear more from other people.

L-2 is not a serious threat at this game size. This is a very big overreaction, especially considering that you aren't overreacting to the L-2 directly, rather overreacting to a reaction to the L-2.

Yes, it’s not a huge problem, but I was pretty disappointed that 2 ICs had put me at L-2 without any discussion of the ramifications of more people voting for me. Not to mention the fact that Kairyuu has now accused 3 different people of being scum since then, and he refuses to consider the person who put me at L-1, if he is right on any of those 3, they could have easily hammered without any discussion from the ICs as to the ramifications of that. I felt that a huge opportunity for discussion had the opportunity to be lost, and that wasn’t a good thing.

Infinis, what's the point in the vote for me? It seems more of an alibi-vote than anything.

What’s an alibi-vote?

I don't remember saying that his math was an attempt to incriminate me (though I may be wrong, since I'm not bothering to look it up at the moment).

I thought it was pretty much implied. You attacked him over his maths and conclusions drawn from it, then voted him, I figured this was a fairly strong indication that you found his post and maths scummy.

Yep. There's that. He sounds like he's trying to decide which position to take, but hasn't figured out which one will benefit him most (aka. a scummy motive for his actions, one of the best tells out there).

True, but I don’t see why he’d say it. Why would you say anything like that if you were scum. I truly have no idea what to make of Infinis’ comment on this, I’m waiting on his later rewrite (his latest post isn’t good enough) to make judgement.

Ojanen pointed out that I misread the point I accused him of being a hypocrite over. I dropped that point entirely.

Fair enough, just that at the time of my initial post saying that your accusation was a ‘stretch’ this hadn’t happened, so some context is needed for why I said it again.

I don't think that wishy-washiness is the best phrase for it now that I think about it. More like playing both sides of the argument.

Fine, but you’ve accused both me and Infinis of being Wishi-Washy, do you still think I’m being wishi-washi with my posts or am I playing both sides?

Odd. Thought I mentioned that there was no hurry. Guess I forgot.

Yes, but you made one mistake, you addressed to it to me. I saw that and I couldn’t help but reply

@ Infinis

I don’t accept your reread, and I doubt anyone else will either. You’ve dismissed a lot of my arguments against Kai, and basically ignored Kais case against me, especially given your Korts vote. I would like to see some serious discussion from you regarding Kai vs Me. If you re-iterate what we’ve said, that’s fine, but we need an acknowledgement that you’ve considered what we’ve put forward. The only conclusion that you seem to have gleaned from it is that me and Kai aren’t scumbuddies. Considering the amount that has been posted, I would think that you could come up with some further observations than that.

@ All

We have a week till deadline. We need everyone talking. Considering prodding and replacements have gone out, failure to participate must be seen in a harsher light than it has up until now. We can’t have discussions between 3-4 people and expect to get a meaningful D1 lynch.

I'm off to bed, wrote all of this while reasonably drunk, so I might need to reread what I've wrote in the clear light of day Sorry for the wall of text, hopefully you can get something out of it.

[Sando]

@Ojanen: Wow. Reading through that, I have no defense. I ignored Japles because I was preoccupied with my gambit, then Sando, then Infinis, and I completely missed how convenient my timing was. I'm impressed.

Oh well. I chalk it up to coincidence, since it wasn't any conscious effort on my part, and I know I'm not scum. Vote me if you'd like though, you found a good scumtell (though a Japles or Infinis lynch is much better in my opinion).

To be fair, my suspicion of Kai as scum had been going steadily downhill, the post where I asked the very direct questions was really my last effort if nothing came up. Then when Kai refused to talk about Japles, who I think has been incredibly scummy, and went after others, my suspicions ratcheted up a notch.

I'm going to

unvote, Vote: Japles

.

I'm doing this because outside of the link to Japles, I'm no longer all that sure on Kai. Considering this, if Japles turns town, which i doubt, but if he does, I at least will think much more townie of Kai. If he turns Scum, then I'm going to have to be really convinced not to lynch Kai. But either way, we learn something.

If we were to lynch Kai, and he turned scum, then we've linked him to Japles and can lynch Japles. But if Kai turns town, then we haven't learned anything about the scum.

I think what I'm basically blabbering about is what I think Korts said earlier, links tend to go 1 way. I think the link ties Kai to Japles, not the other way round.

Am I making sense? I'm now hang-over posting instead of drunk posting

On to Kai's response, I'll stop rambling now

He said he was having some trouble in RL, and that he would be back soon after it was sorted out. This has nothing to do with alignment, and I therefore dropped my vote, because there was an out of game reason for the lurking. However, he never came back after saying he would, so my suspicion of him is beginning to increase again.

Yep, fair enough, he seems to be in the same boat as Korts. The difference I see is that Korts has promised a re-read and comments, Josh hasn't as far as i know. It seems that you don't need to push Korts as much as Josh, Korts realises his responsibilities and will get to them when he can, Josh is a newbie along with us and might not realise it.

So does that mean that you'd like to lynch Japles, and then me tomorrow if he flips scum? I think he'll flip scum, but I'm a bit wary of the Kairyuu lynch for tomorrow. I really don't think he's scum.

You'll certainly be my top suspect, yes.

To buy yourself time before you have to take a side.

Yeah, but there's been some lurking going on, it would have been much safer for a scum to 'hide out' till they could see which way the wind was blowing. I think it could be a mistake that either side makes, especially in a newbie game. Although i do think the timing of the mistake could be indicative of scum, given that you're pushing him to provide a response. I'll have to reread this stuff a few times and think about it.

I mean seriously, I'm suspicious of Infinis, Japles(did a reread and didn't like what I saw, more later), Josh (said he would be here soon almost a week ago), and millar (seriously, one post and then nothing?). It's bothering me to no end that I can't narrow it down any further.

All of these are valid now, I've reread your post before you replied to me, regarding Infinis, and considering what I've already said, I agree that Infinis seems scummy, but I still think you, and certainly Japles, seem more scummy. I've asked for him to actually comment on what has happened further, as have you, so we'll see what comes out of that. And I agree that the lurking from Josh/Millar is bad times. Millar I was giving some leeway as a replacement, he has a lot to read through, but with a week to go and him being in here for a while, we can't afford to wait much longer.

[Sando]

@Sando: It's all solid content. I like it. You should drunkpost more often.

Yeah on waking, I'm actually pretty happy with that I'm learning, that's for sure.

@Ojanen: Wow. Reading through that, I have no defense. I ignored Japles because I was preoccupied with my gambit, then Sando, then Infinis, and I completely missed how convenient my timing was. I'm impressed.

Yeah well done Ojanen, your post illustrated the point perfectly.

[Sando]

I'm finishing up a longer post on each player, it'll be done later today. Chaos40 dying is a surprise to me, and I'm going to have to reread again as I wasn't expecting it. Like Kai, I really expected either me or Ojanen to die, which one depending on whether Kai was scum. The 'out of the blue' that I expected would have been Korts, simply because he's IC and Kai is an obvious D2 lynch target.

I'll have to have a think on my assumptions based on what has happened, I'll post in a few hours. I agree with Kai's choices of who it could be, Kai, Korts or Millar13, although I'm not going to discount Josh L just yet.

And yes, despite the fact that my mind has not been changed overnight regarding Kai, I wont be part of killing him, or anyone else, until both Josh L and Millar have posted some meaningful things, staying quiet at this stage only hurts town. And yes Millar, you are very quiet compared to other games I've read of yours.

And Chaos wasn't the most random person to be chosen, he was looking very townie after Japles came up scum, and leaving Ojanen and me alive to kill Kai would be very attractive to scum. I personally think that NKing me would have gotten a more guaranteed lynch on Kai.

[Sando]

Chaos dying:

My thoughts during N1 was that either Ojanen or myself would die. I expected Kai to kill Ojanen if he were scum, and anyone else to kill me, not because I’ve been effective, but because it is an easy kill on a relatively confirmed townie that would throw a huge spotlight on Kai. Kai killing Ojanen was because it would eliminate 1 of the 2 people gunning for him, without the huge spotlight thrown on him.

So who would want to kill Chaos? Well he’s probably the 3rd most town person after Ojanen and myself, once Japles comes up scum, so there’s that. He’s un-involved in the linkage of Kai and Japles, and I believe the only person he’s pointed the finger at other than Japles is…me. Now that I’ve been forced to go back and look at Chaos, he’s the obvious person that I’d kill if I were scum. He’s almost confirmed townie, he’s attacked me, and has shown that he wont give up on something just because someone else does. It’s not that he’s a really strong target for Sandoscum to kill, it’s that there really is noone else that I would kill if scum. So I’m going to have to rely on other factors to confirm my towniness.

Having said that, pretty much anyone could kill Chaos as a safe bet that doesn’t rock the boat. It leaves the status-quo of Ojanen/Sando going for Kai, so anyone other than Kai would be happy with that as scum. It also kills one of the more pro-town people, someone you can kill without throwing the game into upheaval. Kai could also be WIFOMing it (assuming I’ve got WIFOM right here), saying ‘why would I kill Chaos when Sando/Ojanen are going to lynch me, why wouldn’t I kill one of them?’

Infinis:

Makes a random vote that looks like he’s trying to hard to make it random
Gets overly defensive of questions from Ojanen
Posts regarding Kai’s gambit, 5th post, no substance
Posts the ‘Sando acquitted himself well, but I have to reread’ post
Keeps promising a reread on Kai vs Sando and Sando vs Japles, at the end posts that the only conclusion he has come to is that Sando and Kai aren’t in cahoots.
The vote on Korts is out of nowhere, and isn’t explained at all

Korts:

Has been behind all game
Has ‘actively’ lurked all game, providing little in the way of input since the Sando vs Kai thing blew up
Voted for me without any actual reasoning provided, now that I reread it. The most he comes up with is ‘This is a very good point’, he then goes on the question some of the things Kai brought up in attacking me.
Said that Japles was experiencing technical difficulties, when in fact Japles had stated that his difficulties were fixed and had been posting regularly.
Put me at L-2, and like Kai, never posted anything regarding a quick-lynch being bad.
Posted immediately following my quicklynch post with no mention of it
Has taken a few opportunities to make people look bad without any content posted:

L-2 is not a serious threat at this game size. This is a very big overreaction, especially considering that you aren't overreacting to the L-2 directly, rather overreacting to a reaction to the L-2.

This is in response to my quote of:

By the way, as an IC, how come that you know that a quick lynch is almost never good for town, you know i'm at L-2 (you just posted) and yet make no mention of it. Thanks for confirming my views on you.

Which was in response to:

Oh, and thanks for the OMGUS by the way. It definitely tells me I hit this one out of the park. confirm vote: Sando

I think anyone can see that my response thanking Kai for confirming my views was a tongue in cheek copy of his mannerisms in his post. Yet Korts has attacked me for over-reacting to a reaction, when I did nothing of the sort, once the quote is put into context.

His catchup post (155) throws mud on both Kai and Me, without anything really added to the scumhunt (although some useful game tips are included).

1 of 2 ‘active’ people not voting for the confirmed scum, the other being Infinis.
Still hasn’t caught up after N1.

Josh Lyman:

The only read I can give is no read, he’s lurked hardcore so far, really needs to get in the game.

Millar:

Is very quiet, actively lurking
Has been asked, repeatedly, to come out and say something, has consistently refused to do so
Voted on the Japles bandwagon at 4th, with no reasoning given. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Millar bussing like that given what I’ve read of his, but that’s pretty gut.

Ojanen:

Townie through and through
I think every post has been substantive, better than anyone else in this game, myself included
First person to vote Japles (of the bandwagon that eventually killed him)
Drew a very strong and well articulated link between Japles and Kai
If Ojanen is town, wow, this would be the most amazing play ever, as opposed to just awesome scumhunting.
Has the same reasons as me to kill Chaos N1 if scum, it’s just not as strong an argument against her as it is against me.

I wont address myself, and I’m not going to post one of these small snippets regarding Kai. Start of D2 seems like a good time to condense my argument on Kai, so it’ll be a new post in a minute.

[Sando]

Kairyuu:

My case against Kai comes down to 3 things: 1, the Gambit, and what I believe were some holes/scumtells in there. 2, his accusation and arguments with me. 3, his link to Japles. Outlined below are what I find scummy about 1 and 2, read Ojanen’s post (post 140) for 3. I’m trying to make this as condensed as possible. These are listed in reverse order of importance, most important and telling is the linkage to Japles, then the arguments with me, then the gambit is the least important and least telling.

Gambit

The biggest problem I see with the gambit is that it apparently, and is supposed to, have only townies involved in it. The 3 people are Chaos, Korts and Kai himself. Kai deliberately acted scummy, yet expected a scum to go after his target, despite the fact that in Kai a scum would have an easy attack on a townie acting scummy. It makes no sense for a scum to do anything other than go after Kai.

I still think that the trap was designed to be very ambiguous, pretty much anyone saying anything could have been accused using it. I think that Kai saw the opportunity with ‘The Slip’ and decided to throw some fuel on the fire using the trap.

Kai vs Sando

I over-reacted to Kai’s accusation, but more so to going to bed without a vote on me and waking up at L-2.
Kai quickly set up my counter-argument as OMGUS, when it wasn’t
Has consistently attacked my attack itself, not the arguments. He’s called it OMGUS, a misrepresentation (without any evidence of this), and an attack on his credibility:

These are all quotes from Kai

- “You're complete and total obsession with discrediting me is noted, and will be commented on fully in an hour or three once I finish my post.”
- “I wouldn't. See above. Stop trying to discredit me.”
- “OK. So after reading that entire post, all I got was that it was irrelevant waffle and a shot at my credibility. If this is part of your full case then you need to rethink it.”
- “From this post all I got was more waffle and another attempt at an attack on my credibility, this time by calling my case weak and then just reiterating your own actions.”
- “More attacks on my credibility. This is getting pathetic. Pull the other one. It had bells on it.”
- “Instead of actively trying to disprove my case, you came at my credibility as an IC, which irritated me to no end.”
- “however, your implication that this has been an ongoing thing instead of simply one post made while pressed for time is still not appreciated”

Has made some very definitive statements with nothing to back them up:

- “Oh, and thanks for the OMGUS by the way. It definitely tells me I hit this one out of the park. confirm vote: Sando”
- “As soon as you were accused, you immediately went back to dig up anything you could find on your accuser. This is a very bad idea, because it opens you up to all sorts of OMGUS accusations” -

Which he took full advantage of.

- “The things I accused you of are not up for discussion. You did them, and that is that.”
- “He gave a reason, but the reason was crap. I think he is suspicious, but not enough to warrant my vote or attention right now.”

The emotive appeals regarding attacks on credibility especially seem pretty scummish.

Kai and Japles:

Kai is very linked to Japles, read post 140 from Ojanen, it illustrates it perfectly, any further comment from me would merely be restating what she said. This is easily the strongest thing for Kai being scum, he admits it himself. Just because I’m not writing much on it doesn’t mean I think this is minor.

[Sando]

Well duh. I was pissed off because you weren't attacking me for being scummy based on my actions, you were making baseless attacks on my character and credibility as an IC. How would you feel if someone just walked into a board meeting you are part of an started calling you incompetant? I'm willing to bet you'd get pretty irritated.

I meant to attack your ‘credibility’ on 2 things, and as far as I’m aware this is all I attacked your credibility regarding:

1: The gambit, it’s premise and it’s result. Considering you just said this:

My gambit was terribly flawed and failed miserably.

Why shouldn’t I have attacked you on it? Don’t get pissy that I’m attacking your credibility when you know that my attack, in this instance, was completely valid. Not to mention, I have to wonder what would be thought of your gambit if I hadn't pushed so hard on it. Somehow I doubt you'd be so open about it being flawed and a failure if I hadn't attacked on it so hard.

2: Quicklynch, you can get pissed over this, fine, I was trying to get some discussion going on it. Trying to make sure that there were no ‘accidents’. I questioned your motives on this, and I’m not backing down on it. I also questioned Korts’ motive on it, he hasn’t gotten indignant at the uppity newbie questioning his credibility.

As far as I’m aware, these are all that I’ve attacked your credibility on, and you’ve come out with 7 complaints about me attacking you on it, 8 now. This itself seems very emotive. You’re constantly telling me to back off for no other reason than it offends you. You aren’t appealing to logic, you’re appealing to emotions in trying to get me to back off.

If you didn't catch scum D1 I would definitely be voting you right now, because this "case" is the most obviously fabricated thing I have ever seen.

My gambit was terribly flawed and failed miserably.

@all: Time to reveal my plan, as it has served its purpose as well as it can right now.

Followed by outlining why your gambit had caught me, and starting a nice little bandwagon on me.

Seems like you've done some fabricating of your own.

[Sando]

@Kai

Why would you do it as Scum Kairyuu? For interests sake? To try it out, see how it goes? Since it worked so brilliantly the first time, why not try it out as scum? You're playing a game after all, the way to get better at it is to try new things.

How is this attacking your credibility as an IC? I was merely giving some reasons as to why you might have played the gambit again as scum. All I meant was that when people play games, they try new strategies, new tactics, for interest and so that their gameplay improves. I can’t see how anyone could take this as an attack on your credibility. Unless you think I was being sarcastic, which I wasn’t, it was a pretty resounding success in that game.

Posts 50 and 68 respectively in the game i linked. So Kairyuu has changed his mind and is advocating playing differently in this game when he said clearly in the other game that ICs should play hard. Also, while it is apparently a silly move, you also send a signal to your scumbuddy to not worry about the vote by saying that when an IC scumbuddy votes a newbie it puts pressure on them. This is pretty subtle in saying that he shouldn't feel pressured, but when combined with your previous comments, it seems like a nice way to look like you're pressuring him when you're not.

Again, I’m trying to point out inconsistencies in your play, not attack your credibility. I can’t see how I’m attacking your credibility as a player or an IC here

His unvote was a null tell, but could have been scummy... And when he defended himself, he got the impression that he was town, that's some pretty good scumhunting Kairyuu, thanks for sticking to your convictions like the rulebook says we should.

You’ve found one, a comment where I make a snide remark attacking your credibility. Sorry if I offended you, it was more personal than it needed to be.

I still don’t see why you need to make 8 different statements complaining about me attacking your credibility. It strikes me as you trying to get me to back off for reasons outside of my arguments, and it also seems like you’re trying to paint my arguments as personal attacks, when they are, for the most part, not.

@Infinis

@kai I'm surprised you haven't attacked Ojanen for calling you out on your misrepping my first Math post. And most of his posts question your motives and action and the only response we have from you is basically -oops, you are right.

Ojanen is easily the most townie person in the game at the moment, Kai would never attack her at this stage, whether or not he was scum. Given what Ojanen, and to a lesser extent I, have said about Kai’s links to Japles, an attack on Ojanen would basically sign his death warrant I think. It’s a null tell that Kai is leaving Ojanen alone, it’s what he’d do as either scum or town I feel. You trying to get Kai to comment on someone who is basically cleared as town seems pretty odd though...

Kai clears Josh because of what? He wasn't around long enough? korts has R/L issues so he's clear? Kai gave up on Sando. So that leaves Ojanen, me, millar?

Kai has posted his list of suspects, and added you on as an addendum. It was Korts/Millar with himself tacked on, as he knows he’s an obvious target.

I'm surprised that neither Sando nor Kai were NK'd. Which leads me to two trains of thought

1) Kai is scum and knows killing Sando or me would have resulted in a quick lynch for him

2) Neither Kai, Sando, nor myself are scum and the remaining scum wants us to kill each other off.

Kai was never going to be NK’d. I don’t even think there would be a WIFOM reason to kill him. If me and Ojanen please, we can almost certainly get Kai lynched today, and everyone knew that going into N1. There is no reason to NK Kai if you’re scum as anyone but Kai because of this, and Kai obviously wouldn’t NK himself. Any scum other than Kai would look at Ojanen/Kai/Sando and see that it's highly likely they can get a mislynch on Kai.

Option 1 is exactly why Kai wouldn’t have killed me. Playing logically, I would have expected Kai-scum to kill Ojanen, it would leave me as the only person really pushing a hard case on Kai. He's discredited much of my case, for good and bad reasons in my view, so getting rid of the other person attacking him would seem logical, without being overly dangerous to him. I've no idea why killing you would through much suspicion on Kai, you're his best hope of avoiding a lynch today, why would he NK the person he wants to get lynched to avoid it himself?

Again, I don’t know why you’ve cleared yourself in option 2. You didn’t vote for Japles, one of 2 active people who didn’t, you didn’t present a case against him. Japles coming up scum made 2 people look very townie, Ojanen and myself. Scum would not assume that I would attack you after Japles came up scum, or even after a lynch on Kai, there’s no reason to assume that you would ever be a target.

The most obvious result of Chaos being killed is that Ojanen and myself lynch Kai, but if he comes up town, there’s no real obvious kill after that. You including yourself in the Kai/Sando/Ojanen thing when you’re one of the few people who didn’t help lynch the confirmed scum seems like an attempt to make out that you were involved when you weren’t.

At this point in time, I think it’s down to Kai and Infinis. I agree with Kai’s statement that we should lynch him today or stop thinking of his link to Japles as his only scumminess. I personally would be feeling very dicey if we get close to Lylo with Kai in the game still, so if people agree it’s between these 2, I would definitely choose to lynch Kai today with a strong lean towards lynching Infinis if Kai comes up town.

I think that Millar needs to get in the game, there’s been lots said, you must have an opinion on all of this. Lurking at this stage is bad for town, no 2 ways about it.

@Kai

Meh. I think the Chaos kill was probably either randomly determined, or chosen because once Chaos was out of the limelight he sorta faded off a bit, which seems a bit like doctor play.

Josh was absent during the Night Phase. There was only one scum left alive during said Night Phase. With Josh inactive, he could not have submitted the kill, and therefore assuming him to be scum there is no explanation for the fact that a kill went through. Therefore, discarding the absurd (I love Zeno's Method), we can safely say that Josh cannot be scum.

mod: if the mafia doesn't send in anything during a night phase, is their kill randomized?

Only if they're absent during the Night phase (due to V/LA or replacement search).

I’ve made sure these are in order. Basically:
- You state that you think the NK could have been randomly determined.
- You state that JL is cleared because a NK was given while he was V/LA
- The mod is questioned and confirms that if scum is V/LA their NK will be randomised.

This seems like you’re aware of the rule, yet still clear JL when you know it could still mean he’s scum.

If this is not the case, do you still think JL is in the clear?

@ Korts

One thing I'm suspicious of Sando for is because he has frequently expressed that if he turned scum upon his lynch, we should ignore his posts. This is scummy because looking at a confirmed scum's interactions can tell us a lot--it is possible that they left fake links, trying to incriminate townies, but in general it is helpful.

I’m pretty sure I only said that in one post (86), my complaint about quicklynches, although I did say it a few times in that one post. I believe I said to ignore that post twice, and at one point I said you could ignore everything I’d said if you wanted. I never suggested that you should ignore all of my posts, just one, and I merely stated that if you wanted to you could ignore my posts, not that you should.

[Sando]

Oh yeah, by the way, if there is by any chance a cop with an innocent on me they should probably claim so that I don't get mislynched. I'd rather lynch scum than submit to being a mislynch.

In theory, this would work, if you assume Ojanen and me are town, if you get a confirmed on a cop and Kairyuu, then we can't lose. We would have 3 lynches, and 3 suspects, game over.

However, there's no point yet, sure it would make the game go quicker in a perfect world, but it also runs a big chance of getting the cop killed for negligible gain.

I suppose we should be careful not to hammer people too quickly though, given that not only are we seeing if the person claims, but if someone claims to stop them dying.

@Kai

Also, according to the rules in the first post, which the mod was nice enough to quote for us, if a Night Action is not submitted, it is not randomized, it is forfeited, meaning that If Josh was scum, he couldn't have submitted the NK N1 due to being away, and therefore, he can't be scum.

Are you saying that you still discount Josh as scum, or is this further justification of your previous statements regarding Josh being confirmed town?

I don't see how Josh is cleared, he's V/LA afaik, so a random kill is perfectly possible, am I wrong on something?

[Sando]

There is so much WIFOM in this post I don't know where to begin.

Instead of making monster posts keeping Korts behind let me try and clear up my argument.

What? WIFOM from what I know is used to clear yourself: ‘why would I kill xx, that makes no sense for me to do that!!’. WIFOM is not used to attack someone else afaik, except to say, ‘well it’s not me so it must be you!’.

I was in fact attacking your idea that you were involved somehow in lynching Japles. 4 people didn’t vote Japles; Korts, Josh L, Infinis, and Japles himself. Now of those, Josh was inactive or claiming to be, Korts hadn’t caught up and was still voting me from when things first blew up, and Japles obviously didn’t vote himself. The only active person to not vote for Japles was you, Infinis. You are the only person who was active that didn’t vote for the only confirmed scum, this is in itself scummy.

The other point is that considering this, and the fact that as Kai has said, 2 people (Ojanen and myself) were basically confirmed town by Japles flipping scum, and you looked like a reasonable candidate for scum given you didn’t vote for the confirmed scum. There is no reason that I can see that a scum would kill you. Kai might kill you to get rid of 1 person attacking him, but there are so many other, better choices for him, Chaos included. Same with Korts, you voted him, for no apparent reason, but I can’t see him killing you for that, it draws suspicion for no reason, and again, Chaos and others were better choices for him.

Your whole post seems like an attempt to make it seem like you were a part of killing Japles when you had nothing to do with it.

Kai...well he's so prominent it seems unlikely he's running a double gambit?! Scum pretendiing to be town using a gambit to catch scum. However, I can see no reason why scum wouldn't NK him. If Kai is town, then the town would turn towards me or Sando for the lynch. Kai's rationale for voting me is just plain wrong and he is fishing for town power roles. What justification can he have for sacrificing a power role for a vanilla townie role...that's if we have power roles which we're not guaranteed to have since with only a goon dead we can't determine which setup we have.

I could see him saying "look if someone got a guilty on someone, let's have it and try and end this"

Sando lead the japles wagon. To bus a scum buddy day 1, while staving off a lynch, would be epitome of play. I just can't see Sando as scum. Also realize that if Sando was NK'd we'd be on Kai in seconds, so NK Sando would be a bad play for Kai as scum, it doesnt clear kai.

The only true part of this is the last sentence, and given that you’ve said it previously, and I’ve said it’s true and why, it’s hardly compelling. We’ve said, multiple times, Kai would have been a bad target for any scum on N1. His dying would not paint you in a scummy way in any way. It would paint me as more scummy, but while I think it might make people reconsider my role in killing Japles as townie, I doubt it’d get me lynched.

Despite this, I have some opinions of why Kai might have been NKd, but I don’t want to pollute your answers to this:

Infinis, I would like you to answer these:

- Why do you think Kai was a likely NK target?
- Who would have suspected if Kai had been NKd?
- Why did you not vote for Japles?
- Why do you think Josh would kill an active poster yet not include yourself or Ojanen in your targets?
- Why do you think that Millar posting (and voting) shortly before the lynch and shortly after clears him due to inactivity?
- Do you still consider me to be a decent scum possibility?
- Would you have voted for me if Kai had been NKd?

That means that if you are not around to submit a Night action, said action doesn't happen at all. Hence, if Josh was scum, the fact that he flaked ages ago means that there would have been no Night Kill at all, since he would be the only scum left alive who could submit it. It's simple logic really.

But, the mod said that if someone were V/LA then the vote would be randomly assigned? Was Josh not V/LA?

Also, it's interesting to note that now that there is some pressure on you, you are trying to get back up on the fence, as evidenced by the fact that your comments about me are given from both sides of the argument now. Looks like you jumped the gun with that vote then, scum.

I agree with this statement from Kai, I think Infinis expected pretty much instant agreement, from me especially, on his case against Kai, and now that I’m not giving it, is backing off a fair bit and playing both sides of the argument.

Having said all that…

Unvote, Vote: Josh Lyman

[Sando]

As I said NKing Kai would cast strong suspicion on you, Sando. Confirming anyone as town this early is ludicrous. Saying that no one would think you would NK Kai is perfect WIFOM defense. As in the argument both you and Kai are making, there is no way Sando as scum would NK Kai, since it would be too suspicious. Let me try and make an example we can all enjoy.

This makes very little sense. Why are you really looking at me if Kai dies? He’d already said pre-lynch that he thought I was townie, and the scum lynch is what is being used to say I’m town. You don’t accuse someone of being scum in that circumstance purely because he has no reason to do it. Nobody had a pressing need to kill Kai, nobody.

If Kai had been killed, I would've had to have start from scratch. If forced, right now, I would have said you followed by millar. That's only a forced guess on gut.

My choices would have been Millar and Josh, I’m happy to explain this if anyone wants. What about Kai being NKd would make you suspect me? Your argument seems to be: ‘Why would Sando NK Kai I wonder? No reason! He must be the scum!!’. It makes no sense.

I didnt vote Japles because this is a newbie game and the case was weak against him. I thought newb play. It seemed that you, Sando, were using him as an escape from Kai's gambit/trap.

You need to reread what happened if you actually think this. I didn’t bandwagon Japles until after Kai had said he no longer felt I was scum, I didn’t need to escape.

Because me and Ojanen were posting few and far between, it was mostly a back and forth between you and Kai. Killing one of you would have a been a death sentence for the other.

You and Ojanen are only inactive compared to me and Kai. You’re still pretty active for a mafia game.

It clears him for now. Lynching a lurker is bad form is it not? Even if I think his hit and run vote was scummy.

No, it’s not bad form per-se, although it seems to be a bad idea to do it purely because they’re lurking. Kai and I currently have votes on Josh L for lurking. And no, it does not clear Millar, my whole point is that you claimed Millar was cleared for the same reason Josh is, inactivity during night phase meaning there would have been no kill. This is not true of Millar, he posted shortly before and shortly after the lynch.

I state clearly in my post: for you to be scum and bus another scum while under intense pressure (L-2 at one point IIRC) would be penultimate play to clear you all the way to lylo. So I think you are town.

You should really reread what happened.
I attacked Japles very early.
Kai attacks me.
I attack Kai.
Kai stops attacking me
I help Ojanen get Japles lynched.

I wasn’t under intense pressure when I helped get Japles lynched, the skill needed to do it isn’t the only reason I’m being declared town by people.

You are confirming people as town without evidence. I agree on Sando and I am 90% convinced on Ojanen but Josh?

Do you really need to be shown again the evidence that he used to exonerate Ojanen and me? And his confirming 2 others would come from a cop with an innocent investigation on someone alive right now.

For argument's sake, if we eliminate, as scum possiblities, you, me, Sando , and Ojanen, we have left: Josh, Korts and millar

Why do you keep doing this? You’re not even close to being town confirmed, either is Kai. Ojanen and I are the only 2 that people feel are town confirmed or close to.

Replacing Josh Lyman for failing to respond to a prod.

Well I thought I’d help Kai pressure the lurker, but the mod has spoken.

Unvote

[Sando]

Ahhh yeah, drunk posting again, let’s see how this goes:

You do know that we have a 75% chance of having power role(s) in the game, right?

I’ve got it at 60%:
Roleblocker – No power roles
Rolebloker – 2 power roles
Generic scum – Doc
Generic scum – Cop
Generic scum – no power roles

2 of 5 have no power roles, 60% have power roles, correct me if I’m wrong, I’m a fair bit drunker than last time I drunk posted.

Yeah I’ll catch up properly tomorrow, and I would vote Kai, but it wouldn’t do any good at the moment, so I wont, mmk.

I just want to say, Semi’s points against Kai, 1 is pretty BS and null-tell imo, 2 is pretty true, 3 needs looking into, and 4 is self-evident. I’ll post more regarding this tomorrow, especially 3, I think it’s pretty important now that I’ve had time to think about it.

Infinis: I don't get a strong town or scum vibe from him. He could be either. However, what I do like is that he has been looking back extensively at Day One in his scum hunting attempts and bringing it into current discussion, something that I think many more people should do more often. Previous days always merit more analysis as the game progresses. His scum hunting attempts are mostly believable to me.

Semioldguys read of Infinis in post 230 seems particularly scummy to me. He’s praising of Infinis for ignoring what happened in D1. For starters, Infinis hasn’t done this, he’s constantly speculated and theorised about D1/N1 events, and secondly, Semi seems to be trying to take the focus off D1 events, a period when his previous incantation lurked hardcore.

Drunkpost done with

[Sando]

NVM, you can't have 2 vanilla scum with no power roles it seems, so Kai is right with 75%, drunk post ftl.

[Sando]

Infinis: I don't get a strong town or scum vibe from him. He could be either. However, what I do like is that he has been looking back extensively at Day One in his scum hunting attempts and bringing it into current discussion, something that I think many more people should do more often. Previous days always merit more analysis as the game progresses. His scum hunting attempts are mostly believable to me.

Semioldguys read of Infinis in post 230 seems particularly scummy to me. He’s praising of Infinis for ignoring what happened in D1. For starters, Infinis hasn’t done this, he’s constantly speculated and theorised about D1/N1 events, and secondly, Semi seems to be trying to take the focus off D1 events, a period when his previous incantation lurked hardcore.

Drunkpost done with

I'm going to chalk this up as you being drunk... because you just claimed me as saying the exact opposite of what I actually said.

Yep, my bad, you're right. However, you are declaring it pro-town to talk about past days yet get the facts and timeline completely wrong, and to draw the wrong conclusions from what happened. This is basically what I think Infinis has done, and I think Ojanen and Kai think it too.

Semi, do you find his arguments believable, or the motives behind them believable, or both?

Kai:

@Sando:

Pretty sure all those quotes you've got there are from Ojanen, not me.

[Sando]

@ Infinis

So your theory is that the only people who could be scum are Kai, Korts, Japles and Chaos, given they're the ones voting for me, and noone hammered, therefore noone other than those 4 could be scum. You are also using a completely WIFOM argument for why you're not scum, something you've accused both me and Kai of doing previously.

There are plenty of reasons why scum wouldn't have hammered me, in fact before being put at L-1 I believe I went through how it would look scummy to hammer.

And again, you link yourself to Oja when you say one of you could have been waiting for an opportune time to hammer. The differences between you 2 on this issue are huge, Oja posted while I was at L-1, you didn't. There is no reason to believe that you were around to hammer, there is plenty of reason to believe Oja had the opportunity, she proved it by posting while I was at L-1, twice.

Regarding the request for Cop claim:

I've already posted once on why I don't think they should claim, but something else occurred to me. The scum have 1 advantage at the moment, and we make it bigger if we get a cop claimant. That is they have an idea of the game makeup and we don't. If the remaining scum is vanilla scum, they know there's only 1 townie role. If they're a roleblocker, they know there's either 2 or 0 townie roles. A cop claiming means the scum would know the exact makeup. Town can't know what the makeup is even with a claim. This leaves us really open to a false-claim from a scum who knows the makeup.

Kai has previously asked for mass-claims in other games, it's worked well for him, I think this is just a null-tell from someone who didn't think it through fully.

[Sando]

Kai has previously asked for mass-claims in other games, it's worked well for him, I think this is just a null-tell from someone who didn't think it through fully.

When does he usually call for this? and under what circumstances? If it was the roleblocker who was lynched Day One, then role claiming makes a lot more sense. But it's only Day Two and in this setup I don't see how it could give us enough of an advantage to auto-win until a later day.

To me it looks like he wasn't fully considering his idea from the town's point of view, which is suspicious.

Same time, D2, but the roleblocker was lynched D1, hence a massclaim has no downside, I believe.

[Sando]

but the roleblocker was lynched D1

If your referring to Newbie 750, I've read that game and the circumstances were significantly different than the ones we have here.

Really?

[Sando]

Alright, I'm gonna do it!

Vote: Kairyuu

I believe that's L-1, if it's the hammer, so be it.

Everyone knew coming into today that I'd be gunning for Kai, I said it pre-lynch on D1. I deliberately went after others to try and let something come out, as no matter how strong one singular point is on someone, I don't want to lynch someone on one thing, and that's what I felt I had on Kai, the link to Japles.

The more I think about it, the more I keep seeing Kai's actions as scum motivated. It's pretty gut, and it's also biased, and I would normally ignore this sort of thing, but so much of what has happened just makes sense if Kai is scum.

Kai's case against Infinis makes sense, Infinis seems pretty scummy. However, it makes a lot more sense if Kai is scum. Kai knew that he’d been linked pretty inextricably to Japles, he knew his only way out was to convince us to lynch someone else, he says this to me in post 144. His only possible target is Infinis for this. He can’t go after Ojanen or me, wont work. I think a scum would look at the lurkers and know that his only argument against them is that their lurking, you can’t get much discussion going on it. He tried to get them to come out and play, but nothing came of it. That basically left only Infinis with enough content to make a case from.

In previous games I’ve read of Kai, he’s very anti-lurk, I’ve seen him lynch active-lurkers purely based off that, yet he hasn’t gone after the lurkers in this game very much at all. This strikes me as odd, but it makes sense in the context of needing to be able to make a comprehensive case to try and save yourself, you can’t make that sort of case against a lurker.

Kai has at times been fairly emotive, he’s been very protective of his IC credibility. I’ve detailed most of this previously, but:

This game is bothering me to no end because I can't see any way out of being lynched (alignment is irrelevant here, as I've never been lynched as either main alignments), and either way it hurts my side.

It’s another example. It’s not much, but every time ‘not much’ happens, I feel worse and worse about Kai, it builds up after a while.

There’s the fishing for cop claim, if Kai is vanilla scum, he knows that any cop claim would mean there’s no doc and he would be free to kill the cop. Kai did say that the cop should only claim with an innocent on Kai, but it’s pretty easy to segway from that into a cop claiming with any innocent claim (on anyone but Ojanen and me). This is especially true if you were to build that case that with Ojanen and me basically confirmed, a cop claim on anyone being innocent would win the game, which Kai did. Also made the fairly odd claim that scum were probably role-hunting, but backs off a lot from that a few posts later by saying it could well be a random thing. Getting discussion going on roles and not scum is scummy. It’s not much from Kai, but again, it’s a straw to be added.

I’ve done another reread specifically with Infinis in mind. While he’s made a lot of slips, and we’ve chased him pretty relentlessly for them, his slips appear to be ‘I’m townie’ slips rather than ‘I’m scum’. He constantly refers to himself as basically confirmed town, it’s something I’ve attacked him repeatedly for. I initially saw it as a nice little drop from a scum to make us just assume that he’s town, but I would expect that when a scum saw that I was on to him, would stop doing it and pass it off as a one off mistake. Anyone intelligent and devious enough to do that is intelligent enough to see it's not going to get them anything and that they're making themselves look scummy. I just can't see the case against him at this point.

None of my reasoning is rock solid, it's a lot of gut and 'what makes sense'. A lot of Kai's actions make sense in being townie, I think that some of them make more sense if he's scum. Apart from this is the aforementioned link with Japles, which is pretty much a lock, as Kai agrees. With all this in mind, I can't not vote Kai any longer.

Sorry Korts, I figured I couldn't put someone at L-1 without some reasoning, so you get a wall-o-text

[Sando]

I don't think anyone else is voting for him except for you and I, so it's still only L-2.

Millar is, does he unvote automatically now that he's requested replacement?

[Sando]

Vote:Infinis

my eyes burn from pollen...meh

Most recent Vote count shows him on Infinis (and he did not unvote before asking to be replaced)

Yeah I misread that, so Kai is just at L-2 with 2 votes.

Korts, read these 3 posts and you're pretty much set on my opinion of Kai:

Ojanen linking Kai to Japles
Sando's D2 attack on Kai
Sando's D2 vote on Kai

Those 3 outline why I'm voting Kai pretty much, that's about as condensed as I can make it.

[Sando]

No scum can false claim. Town win next day because we lynch false claiming scum. Care to explain your rationale?

If we have a cop and he claims, and the scum is a vanilla scum, then the scum knows that there is no doc, but we do not. There are other options open, but no, I wont go into it, as theorising about it would only help scum, give them ideas and help them role-hunt.

You're assuming that any false-claim will be black and white, that there will be a counter-claim or the scumclaim will include a list of variables that we can tick-off to conclude if they're telling the truth.

You're also assuming that a claim would have to come today, which it does not. But you're attempt at getting us to do that which has already been stated as being a bad thing, role-hunt, is noted.

[Sando]

Wow, just wow, I don’t know where to begin with this, I know you’ve addressed this to Ojanen, but too bad, I’m getting in here, and you’ve done the same thing as Japles did D1, make me question Kai’s scumminess in the only way possible, by acting even more scummy.

And too bad Korts, this post is too big and too insane for me not to talk to properly.

Where is the answer to why was he doing it? If he was town why bother looking into the gambit? If he was scum then why mention the whole thing? If Kai used it to catch scum and Sando is town he has no worries, if Sando is scum then he diffuses the situation by bringing it up early. And Chaos questions him about the line Sando's big defense comes after Kai's big accusation post. Sando's defense is that he was looking for contradictory behavior from game to game, purely meta arguments. And this reasoning...

I was asked to defend my comments about a previous game, the only POSSIBLE reason for me looking at that game is meta, it is the ONLY way that it can relate to this game. So of course my arguments were meta, and now you’re attacking me for it? This is the exact thing I got so upset at Kai over, you’re setting me up so that I cannot possibly explain myself adequately.

Now i figure if i can start getting you to talk about a previous game, you'll screw up, and you did, i just didn't notice till now. You've changed your mind from 'don't treat newbies with kids gloves' to 'IC scum need to be careful not to put pressure on their partners in newbie games'. I think the reason you've changed your mind is because you're now scum.

Chaos calls him on it

Where did Chaos call me on ‘it’ in that post? He basically votes me for the fact that I attacked him without voting for him. He was basically supporting Kai’s gambit without openly saying it, he never even mentions ‘The Slip’ in that post. I then call Chaos on his post in this: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17#1593617

Sando responds to Kort's accusation again. Read it, it's a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical based on meta argument. The answer as I read it is that Sando was thinking about a solution if Kai had try to run a hypothetical claim and that he was looking for a change in behavior from one game to another game. (Not a pattern of games, one game to the next. 2 times as IC does not a pattern make.) And at the end of the post he says because if Kai tried this gambit then I'd think Kai was scum or Doc. But again why bring it up at all since no such play had been made? Only scum would need to be doing this kind of research to avoid being trapped again.

Again, I was asked to comment on a hypothetical, something that yes, I brought up, but of course my answer was going to be fairly hypothetical. You’re taking what I was saying completely out of context. And since apparently only scum would need to do this, vote me, you’ll see either when I’m lynched, NKd or at the end of the game what I am. At least 2 people are already pretty convinced that I’m town, how about you have a think about it again. Don't attack me for doing what I was asked to do, it might fool some, but I will catch you doing it to me. Manipulation of this sort might get you some cheap points, but you will look like what you are, a manipulator, once we catch you at it.

By the way, your link didn’t work, and I didn’t respond to Korts that page, so I assume you mean Kai.

And Sando accuses kai of being manipulative and reiterates the meta-gaming argument here and he summarizes the situation

Your first link doesn’t have me discussing meta game, and the second post is directed to Chaos, not Kai, wanna try that one again?

Chaos is dead on in this post. My only disagreement is that the answer given is a non-answer. Read the post it is telling.

This is where your post starts to degenerate even further. Chaos wasn’t dead on, you might have thought so at the time, but we have the benefit of hindsight here. Chaos was supporting Kai’s gambit, a gambit Kai himself has said failed. Given that you've just said that you completely agree with Chaos on this, I take it to mean that you think Kai's gambit worked well?

Sando steers the conversation back to Kai's gambit which is not the point.

It was the point.
Link, what I was responding to.

Kairyuu's argument was very convincing and, once hearing his take on the gambit he played I felt confident enough to vote you.

once hearing his take on the gambit he played I felt confident enough to vote you

his take on the gambit he played

gambit

Gee, I wonder if chaos was talking about the gambit… Boys and girls, if you want a classic case of misrepresentation, there you go.

I chime in And see I missed commas for the parenthetical expression in the last paragraph first sentence. And I mention the possible bussing going on, completely wrong Kai bussing Sando or vice versa but you get my point by now.

What I have noticed is that this is your first substantive post for the game, and we’re at the end of page 4, with all this having already happened, you’ve been quiet up until this point haven’t you? On top of that, you don’t really give any opinions, you just reiterate what has happened already. In fact all of your points are purely restating what has already happened. You don’t vote anyone, you don’t FOS anyone, and you don’t even look at Japles…

I don't like the way it played out. Kai's flip flop basically ended The Slip controversy. Kai even admits it looks bad changing his mind this late. And Chaos once more with insightful posting (I'm finally seeing why Chaos was NK'd) The town turns towards me and Japles, especially Kai.

You do realised that by this point I’ve already attacked Japles, and linked him to Kai? I didn’t vote him, but he was at the same point as you are now, acting hugely scummy in a way to make me doubt my convictions regarding Kai, here’s my post, directly after the one chaos quotes: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1597260

Only reason I'm not voting you right now is I can't not vote to lynch Kai today. Kai has stated that we shouldn't hold Japles against him after today, and it will forever weigh on my mind if that happens, so I have to vote for him today. However you've basically confirmed in my mind that it's either you or Kai, so if Kai isn't scum, and I'm alive tomorrow, I will be gunning for you, much harder than I have for Kai today. You've consistently and deliberately misrepresented nearly everything that has happened. You've never made a convincing case on anyone, merely followed the general mood, and you didn't vote for the only confirmed scum, and are now trying to build a case against someone listed as one of two people pretty much confirmed.

Oh, and now this:

No scum can false claim. Town win next day because we lynch false claiming scum. Care to explain your rationale?

So firstly you think there is no possibility scum can false claim to their advantage...

Well it's basically two possibilities:

False claim with Counterclaim is town win. Town lynches both players starting with first claimant.

False Claim with no counterclaim is the tricky one. We agree on this.

Yet now you agree with me? I'm done letting you get away with this sort of thing. Sorry to people who can't catch up, but I'm going to call you on every, single, instance that you do this with from now on, it's just getting ridiculous. I explained my rationale, as you requested, and you try to backtrack to say "we agree on this". We might now, we certainly didn't before, and I would like it noted that I was right, and you were wrong and now agree with me.

However, you are the one giving scum ideas:

That wasn't an idea, it was a simple statement of fact, any scum knows it. What they choose to do with that information and what we choose to give them determines the sort of claims they can make that could win or lose them the game.



Sorry if you wanted concise posts, but I'd much rather highlight the glaring errors/misreps etc than ignore them for the sake of someone catching up.

[Sando]

Well played Ojanen, I started to doubt your towniness once I died, as scum would have killed you before me if going for 'confirmed' townies, but then, you really didn't have a choice. With a cop in the game, you'd have been left with 4 people confirmed townie, the math wouldn't have added up, had to be done. I didn't really read much after I died tbh though, so I can't comment on what happened after that. But yeah, pre D-3 you were definitely the last person I'd suspect. Bussing your partner while implicating Kai so strongly was pretty awesome, I think I went along with it so happily because someone was expressing what I was feeling.

Well played guys, good fun Pity about lurkers, definitely a downer those guys.