Newbie #706 - Oh Little Town of Damocles (Over!)

[Ropis]

/confirm!

Apologies for the delay!

[Ropis]

vote Porkens

Porkens meets my primary criteria for a day one vote - he's not me.

[Ropis]

I'm changing from an OMGUS vote, to one that should at least prove useful, if not accurate. (i.e., Ropis doesn't end up being scum, but we learn more through his [sure to be ensuing] defense.

Well, here goes: I understand that many of you were waiting for this game for 5-6 days due to subbing problems, and I contributed another day and a half wait because I didn't get online on Thanksgiving. I was a little worried about getting bandwagoned day one for no other reason than that (let's be honest - Day One bandwagons are capricious beasts that have started for far less). "A little worried" became "Seriously concerned" when I saw I had collected afatchic's vote early on for precisely that, so when I saw what looked like a bandwagon forming for someone else I jumped on in the hopes of living to day 2. I didn't start the bandwagon, and I didn't drop the hammer - I figured 3rd vote was a safe place to be.

Guess I miscalculated that one!

[Ropis]

I have one question for you Ropis. Why didn't you unvote when some players didn't agree with your vote?

I think there's a fine line between acquiescing to the majority opinion of the town and allowing your vote to be manipulated by scum, so I wanted to hear back from more players before doing anything.

Unvote

I think where I'm getting into trouble here is this is the first time I've played with these voting rules. On another site I've played at we used "Whoever has the most votes at XX:XX time" rather than "First to X votes", so I underestimated the effect of a third vote (in my previous games day one votes get tossed around like candy at a parade.)

You

came into the day

hoping to shed suspicion? That's scummy.

I didn't say anything about suspicion, just collecting votes.

Admitting that you voted for, basically,

whoever

just to 'live to day 2' is very scummy.

Trying to find the 'safe' way to vote is very scummy.

Didn't want to be the first to go in my first game on these boards.

What Irony!

[Ropis]

For the record, I never claimed that I didn't understand the rules, but I freely admit that I didn't grasp their implications (and probably still don’t – at least not completely.)

I understand (now) that putting somebody at L-2 one page one is scummy, because it could help shorten day one and cut down on information gathering, and the more information the townies get the better it is for us. I’m not used to a Day One that lasts a week or more – in every game I’ve played Day One is pretty much a lost cause for the innocents and the goal is to simply survive long enough for the “real” game to start, which is usually late Day Two to Day Three.

This game seems to be in full swing though – I

like

these rules!

Back on point, I

did

in fact jump on a bandwagon with zero info for selfish purposes. Scummy deed for scummy reasons – check and check. I’ll make a note and try to play better in the future. But a townie noob playing scummy must be like mana from heaven for our resident scumbags. I’d be very surprised if none of the three of the players currently voting for me are scum, but since there ARE valid reasons to vote me it’s hard to pick them out.

For the other scumbag I currently like Burning Love. All of those directed questions could be passed off as pro-town by trying to generate responses and info, but it’s telling that he offers none.

Vote: Burning Love

[Ropis]

I was not saying that these question posts are "annoying to answer," I was saying they're not worth answering unless the questioner provides some sort of insight or analysis as well. It's the easiest way to trap someone.

I was rereading the thread and writing the above post before reading this one. I was not paraphrasing DO - we came to a similar conclusion independently.

[Ropis]

@Ropis: I'm still waiting on a response. How scummy/townie do you see Epitaph?

Tough to read. Could be he knows railroading a noob for a mistake when he sees it and doesn't want to rush to judgement, trying to extend Day One for a while to keep gathering info on who the real scum are,

OR

he's scummy and fully expected a townie bandwagon on me and wanted to be able to say later that he tried talking reason to you people but you just wouldn't listen.

WIFOM - can't tell yet.

[Ropis]

I have seen it done several times when a townie makes a terrible mistake, and their lynch looks inevitable, and a scum starts to defend them.

I read DO's post as I was on my way out of work, and on my way home I wanted to post something to this effect.

If I'm lynched I come up scummy then there's definately a connection and Epitaph would need to be seriously looked at, but I come up town then I don't think it reflects on him one way or the other.

[Ropis]

Well was the... when i show up scum... was that a typo too?

Uh... lie? Can you quote

anywhere

I said "when I show up scum"? Because if you can't, then that's a lie right?

Lies seem awfully scummy...

[Ropis]

I know that, but a townie, knowing they are a townie, shouldn't even say that if i show up as scum. they know they are a townie.

DO made the case that lynching me was a good idea because knowing my faction would generate good info on other players either way. In order to argue against that logic I had to approach the issue from both sides, and with a certain level of detachment. I just assumed that yelling "NUH UH! I'M NOT SCUM -

YOU'RE

SCUM!" wouldn't do anybody any good.

[Ropis]

There's no reason why the mafia would pass up killing the doc, unless it's a false claim and afatchic is really scum.

...other than the fact that passing on him gives them a reasonably good shot at another townie and a free pass through day 2 if we agree beforehand to lynch him. I think we should hesitate to promise to do

X

if

Y

because it hands more control to the scum.

This is an open question, but I’d really like to hear Zazie’s opinion on a Day 1 doctor claim since she’s our other resident IC. In the faster passed games I’m used to I NEVER saw a day one claim work out to the town’s advantage. For each of us (townies) there are 8 unknowns – 25% scum. All other things being equal (which of course they never are, but let’s try to isolate the variable) if he IS the doc and claimed day one then that’s 1 known and 7 unknowns – 28.6% scum. From a strictly numbers game, he’s outed himself for a measly 3.6% increase in catching a scum, and now the scum can choose to play the situation – Kill him, frame him, possibly roleblock him – so his effectiveness in the role is nil, and quite possibly even worse because he’s become a scum tool. On top of everything else, with the F11 setup the scum would now know whether or not a Cop is in play, giving them even MORE of an information advantage.

Bottom line is in my opinion the claim was not a pro-town move – it was a temporary save-your-skin maneuver at best. I know, it’s ironic coming from me and my page one shenanigans, but that type of play was commonplace in the faster games so players could get to the real meat of the game. This game is already on, and I think this play could be a very costly mistake.

And the above is all predicated on the idea that he IS in fact the doc, which we only had a 50% shot at getting in the first place. It is at least as likely that it is a lie.

[Ropis]

One of the last rules is "

Robust cryptography and steganography are not allowed in my games.

"
Now I'm tempted to re-vote afatchic.

...I'd say there's a vast difference between hint dropping and "Robust Cryptography", and I'd further give Afatchic the benefit of the doubt that as an IC he would not be likely to overtly break the rules of the game - scum or no.

Pretty

weak

case you're trying to build there, unless you've seen some embedded encryption that I've missed. The only "Hint" I spotted was when he stated "yes the self defense is very helpful to the town."

[Ropis]

Would u expect that if he is lying that the real doctor would counter? please answer that for me.

I'll go ahead and field this one:

If there was a "Real" doc in the house, (s)he should counter claim

immediately

because it is as good as proof that we've got scum. Yes, it would most likely result in the death of the Doc, but a 1-for-1 ratio against the bad guys is about as good as we can ever hope for, power role or not. It would give us a day one scum lynch (as I think everybody would be willing to trust the counter-claim over the initial) and send us into day 2 7 townies and one scum - a pretty darned good place to be, even without a doc.

[Ropis]

EBWOP: "...and send us into day 2

with

7 townies and 1 scum"

[Ropis]

Ropis, I have to say, that is perfect logic.

Uh, not quite...

EEBWOPBWOP: "...and send us into day 2 with

6

townies and 1 scum"

I neglected to count the NK by the remaining scumbag. Sorry about that, I'll work harder on my counting...

[Ropis]

But also, what about the idea of a no-lynch? It makes sure we only lose one townie before day two. Thoughts?

It also drops our chances of a scum-lynch from "not that great" to "exactly zero". This is far more than just a math game, but I think you should play the numbers as a starting point, then deviate when there's good reason.

The general concensus seems to be a wait-and-see approach regarding Afatchic, and I'll go along with that, but I will stop well short of declaring that if he lives through the night he

must

be scum. If we don't think there's enough to hang him with today, then there won't be enough to hang him with at dawn - at least from my perspective. I'll need something more than "he survived" to cast a vote for him.

I'd really like to hear some more from Burning Love sometime soon. It's been a pretty eventful two days since we last heard from him, and in the six days this game's been running we only have three posts from him. Granted, lurking is probably a null-tell, but putting some pressure on him to contribute can't hurt.

I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

[Ropis]

The Case

1. Hypocrisy!
2. Backpedalling!
3. A complete 180 when pressured.
4. Day-1 no-lynch!

It's a strong case. The day-1 no lynch and the assertion that if Afatchic lived through the night we HAD to lynch him tomorrow are what really sold me. Plus, if he turns up scum then (in my mind at least) that gives a big pro-town vibe on Afatchic. Note that the opposite is not necessarily true.

Unvote

Vote: lobstermania

[Ropis]

I agree that Broncofan's self vote is almost certainly a townie-tell, but I also agree that it was in no way a pro-town move.

If you no longer wish to play, please request a replacement rather than try to get yourself lynched - it hurts those of us who ARE interested in playing to win.

[Ropis]

Is Skillit also IC? I think I've seen that name on a couple of the other games I was browsing...

RE: The LobsterWagon - Afatchic and Epitaph DID start it, but it was Porkens' case (some points of which I had reached independantly) that convinced me to put Lobster at L-1 as a pressure vote. I agree with Afatchic that DO dropped the hammer too soon, as Lobster might have been able to redirect. The fast hammering raised my suspicions of DO (so Afatchic's reasoning regarding protecting Zazie rings true with me), but I guess it turns out he was just eager to make something happen.

During my night-time reread BL's question post caught my eye again, and I was wondering if he was trying to mask a scum-to-scum message in it by directing a little something to everybody. I know it's a bit of a stretch, and now he's not even here to defend it, but it was pretty much all I took out of the reread so I thought I'd put it out there.

[Ropis]

The above was in response to a PM I sent to Flay. I was afraid that a scum could claim Doc in a docless game, then skip a kill and claim their protection worked in order to "prove" their false claim.

Turns out my fears are well founded I guess... Still, I'm not trying to start an Afatchic wagon here, just pointing out that there is

NO WAY

for us to ever substantiate the claim. Skillet's assessment of Afatchic's pre-claim play is a very valid point though.

(On a related note - welcome to the game Skillet. I'm not crazy about having to get a read on a new player Day 2, but I'll take an active participant over a silent lurker anytime!)

[Ropis]

All right, here's what I've got right now:

Porkens and Broncofan = Townies. I'm not married to either of these calls, but currently I like both of them for Town. Broncofan's self vote certainly appears to me to be a frustrated Townie picking up his ball and going home, and Porkens has an uncanny habit of typing what I think. Either I

am

the typical townie that he (as scum) is trying to emulate, or he and I are analyzing the game with very similar mindsets. My ego won't allow me to admit to myself that I'm typical

anything

, so for now I'm assuming that we're both town.

If the above assumptions are right, that means two of these four are scumbags:

ZazieR
Epitaph
Burning Love/Skillit
Afatchic

Ropis' Vote Analysis of Day 1:

ZazieR:

{Porkens (1st)}, {unvote}, {Epitaph (1st)}

-The Porkens vote was in the random phase and the unvote was to derail an early wagon. She made a decent case against Epitaph in her vote post as well as a few preceding. I didn't buy into it at the time but it's certainly getting a close second look now. (A quick summary is that he seems inconsistent regarding what behaviors are "scummy deserving fos" and "not-that-scummy, let's move on.") I'd like it if Zazie were a little more active, but overall there's nothing new to go on here, and she stays at the bottom of my scum list.

Neutral

Epitaph:

{ZazieR (1st)}, {unvote}, {Afatchic (3rd)}, {unvote}, {lobstermania (2nd)}

-The Zazie vote was in the random phase, and Epitaph later unvotes while simultaneously giving her a FOS. Votes Afatchic during what I consider to be somewhat erratic play from Afatchic (especially considering that if were the Doc he should have been trying to "blend" more) but is possibly too quick to unvote after the Doc claim. While it WAS fast, I think exercising caution when we have a claimed power role at L-1 is a pretty level headed move. Quickly following the claimed Doc's lead against players more skeptical of the claim is not, but Lobstermania's frenzy to either lynch AFC or have him ejected from the game mitigates this somewhat.

Neutral/Scummy

Burning Love/Skillit:

{No votes Day 1}

No votes, and only three posts. I got a scummy feel off of it as it happened, and I said before in my reread I suspected that it may have contained scum-to-scum communiqué.

IF

that’s the case then I’d see a connection with either Epitaph or ZazieR based on the questions posed to each of them and to me.

I'm trying to focus on Day 1 here so I won't get into Skillit's posts other than to say they seemed well thought out and he actually read the thread.

Neutral/Scummy

Afatchic:

{Ropis (1st)}, {unvote}, {Epitaph (2nd*)}, {Lobstermania (1st)} (I could not find a bolded "unvote" between the Epitaph vote and the Lobstermania vote so there

may

have been a mod miscount involved here, but there were two official vote counts posted between the Lobstermania vote and the Lynch, so we all knew how the mod was ruling while there was plenty of time to change so the damage done (if any) is minimal.)

-The Ropis vote started random then became serious, then the unvote was to stop an early lynch, extend the day, and give me more rope with which to hang myself (or exculpate myself as the case may be.) The Epitaph vote seems to be an OMGUS, but it's interesting to note that later AFC posts a scumlist with Epitaph at the bottom, second only to DO. Also, as the Epitaph vote is placed the primary reasoning seems to be that he was "jumping on the first growing wagon he saw", in response to which AFC jumps on the most viable wagon he saw - Epitaphs. (DO jumped off the Epitaph wagon less than an hour before AFC jumped on, so while technically AFC was only the 2nd voter Epitaph was certainly taking heat at the time and that wagon could have easily started rolling again.)

Scummy

One of the things I agree with Porkens on is his read of Afatchic. I

want

to believe he's the Doc, but I just can't bring myself to. AFC tops my list of suspects right now, and despite Epitaph following his lead early on the Lobstermania wagon I definitely got the vibe that they were at each other's throats (and not just for show) so I don't think they are scum-buddies. A guilty lynch on one of them will be a big pro-town tell on the other (for me at any rate). The opposite is not true though, so if we lynch one and they turn up town it would not be any more damning of the other.

ARM OF SUSPICION: AFATCHIC

I am more than willing to put a vote on him today, but I'd like to get more discussion before I put anybody at L-2.


[On a side note I'd like to say that I'm very much enjoying the game. I like this ruleset and this site - I expect to be around for a while!]

[Ropis]

EBWOP:

"The opposite is not true though, so if we lynch one and they turn up town it would not be any more damning of the other."

...other than the fact that the list of unknowns will have decreased, increasing the likelyhood that ANY one individual is scum. By the above I mean to say that if we lynch one and they turn up townie, it would not (for me) be any more damning for the other than it would be for every other remaining player.

[Ropis]

Another EBWOP:

" (I could not find a bolded "unvote" between the Epitaph vote and the Lobstermania vote so there may have been a mod miscount involved here, but there were two official vote counts posted between the Lobstermania vote and the Lynch, so we all knew how the mod was ruling while there was plenty of time to change so the damage done (if any) is minimal.)"

Reread page one (the RULES) and unvotes need not be bolded, so there was no miscount. Sorry for insinuating you might be fallible Mr. Flay!

[Ropis]

Is there any way to answer a question regarding what the scum will do with there night kill that isn't wifom. and the part you quoted from your think earlier, saying it was the question i didn't answer, was not a question.

We're not talking about what the scum would or wouldn't do - at least not directly. We're talking about your reasoning: Why did you offer both sides of the WIFOM "The scum WILL kill me/The scum WON'T kill me" argument in seperate posts, and offer each as though they were simple fact?

This question (in one form or another) has now been posed to you 4 times. Please answer it.

@Everyone:

Considering all his posts so far, what are your overall reads on Skillit?

Null. 90% of what he's posted so far (in his 5 posts to date) has been grilling Afatchic, without much analysis of anything else. He did drop some post numbers that he promised to comment on later, but that is yet to appear. Speaking of which...

I'll give my thoughts about the players tomorrow.

Tomorrow never comes! How about today?


Also, it's been over 2 days since we heard from Epitaph.

PROD Epitaph

[Ropis]

when we lynch the mafia roleblocker, or if we have a cop and they cleared me, my claim can be proven and then they have to kill me.

When we lynch the role blocker? How do you know that there is a role blocker in the game?

I noticed that too Broncofan, but he

DID

pose it as an either/or. Thing is, both options presuppose option A of the F11 setup, so it suggests knowledge that he otherwise shouldn't have...

[Ropis]

I would like an explanation why you would claim.

I'm not going to give you one at this time. Why would you need to know at this point?

Understnding the motivations of your claim would be VERY helpful Porkins. You seemed to be under no pressure - in fact Skillit and I had both declared our assumptions that you were town. We don't seem to be close to a D2 lynch yet, so provoking/avoiding a NK doesn't seem to apply, and I can't assume that you would have waited this long to tell us about a guilty result on a N1 investigation....

So, why claim?

[Ropis]

Null. 90% of what he's posted so far (in his 5 posts to date) has been grilling Afatchic, without much analysis of anything else. He did drop some post numbers that he promised to comment on later, but that is yet to appear.

Can you really blame skillit for focusing primarily on afatchic? He's probably the biggest issue in the town right now and everyone's opinion on him is important to know.

I didn't mean to cast that in as negative a light as that sounds I guess, and I don't feel that there is any "blame" to assign - only that I did not feel that these 5 posts gave me enough info to form an opinion as to his alignment and to remind Skillit that he had promised additional analysis that I was eager to read.

I was also expecting it from ropis, i figured thats why he was so content on making it through the night.

Nope! Just a greedy noob anxious to make it day 2! It’s an interesting point though – if you thought

I

was the cop, then why did you protect Zazie?

Also this:

So, why claim?

Nevermind – I think I’m up to speed with you now. Handle your business.

[Ropis]

Hey - life happens. I just wanted to let you know that I was eager to hear what you had to say.

[Ropis]

As I said before; I'm not going to explain my motivations yet.

Yeah, I retracted that:

Nevermind – I think I’m up to speed with you now. Handle your business.

[Ropis]

Ropis, if you know what I'm trying to accomplish here, it would help the town if you actively supported that.

Sorry Porkens, but if you were making the play I thought you were then I can only help by keeping my trap shut to avoid tipping the hand, or taking

certain liberties

with the truth, which I'm not prepared to do. I guess I have to assume that I'm not as up to speed with you as I thought.

Just in case, I'm going to reserve further comment until you drop the other shoe (roughly 5-6 hours from now?).

[Ropis]

- this might ring better if Ropis hadn't already said it.

Wait...what? I was purposefully vague... what did I do?

I'd like everyone to post and give me a list of their 3 top suspects WITH REASONS.

Surprisingly, despite the tumult caused by your claim I have seen no reason to change my order of suspicion outlined in post 302:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=302

Ordered list - most scummy to least scummy:

1. Afatchic
2. Burning Love/Skillit
3. Epitaph
4. ZazieR

Still currently believe Porkens & Broncofan to be town, which also means I currently buy Porkens' cop claim.

[Ropis]

11 minutes later he realized just that fact:

Ah, never mind, I just realized how the scum would know I retract these points.

[Ropis]

I see the writing on the wall. Do what you got to do.

John Elway would never give up so easily...

[Ropis]

4.Ropis- The beginning of the game didnt help him, then the connection with AFC also didnt sit well with me.

First: Thanks for putting your list up - I see the logic in seeing everybody's scum lists before the investigation results come out. Of course, the WIFOM here is that it would also be a good scum play to trade Porkens for a list of the most trusted townies: We're at 5-2 now, a false guilty verdict on somebody leads to a mis-lynch, another NK and we're 3-2 on Day 3, lynch Porkens + another NK and we're at a 2-1 endgame, and the scum could arrange it so that the last two townies are high on each other's scum lists... but right now I'm trusting Porkens, and a scum lynch today sends us to 4-1 tomorrow with a (presumably) good lead on scumbag #2. Pivotal day today.

Second: Can you refresh me on the AFC connection?

[Ropis]

Prod: Everybody

Can we please either get everybody's lists or refusals to create lists so we can move on with this game?

[Ropis]

Hello?

HELLO?!?

Last post:

Skillit - 4 days ago
ZazieR - 6 days ago

1 post in last 11 days

- I get "busy", but

come on!

IC players in particular are asked to participate... see "Being a Good IC" here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _a_good_IC The top two rules are "Never Flake" and "Don't Lurk".

This is borderline rude.

PROD: Skillit
PROD: ZazieR

[Ropis]

EBWOP:

"This is borderline rude."

This IS fucking rude. I checked her posts and during the 11 day period in which she has made ONE POST in our game, she has been steadily active throughout the site:

64 total posts in 22 threads, 18 of which are games, 13 of THOSE are mafia.

My question to you Zazie, is why have you signed up for 13 games if you lack the time to participate in them? You have updated your sig to indicate that you KNOW people are irritated by your lack of participation, and yet you choose to spend your time in GD. Are you here to play mafia, or are you here to be

seen

as a mafia player?

I didn't do a complete count of the active players in the other games, but let's just assume that there is an average of 6 other players in them. That's roughly

78

people you are screwing out of a good game because you signed up to play and then flake.

Way to represent the site to new players.

[Ropis]

@Skillit: I appreciate that you have been busy, and I

am

sorry that I perhaps was not clear enough that the actual target of my ire was Zazie. I checked your posts too and the last post you made here on MS (prior to the above) was the last post in this game. You said you were busy, and as far as I can tell that is actually the case. As eager as I am to play, I AM an adult and understand that real life must take precedence.

Zazie on the other hand pops in for one post in 11 days, claims to be busy, but finds the time to post as much or more than any other player in this game - just not here. If she's not interested in playing she shouldn't sign up for 13+ games - it's rude to everybody who actually wants to play.

Do I feel like I should change my list? Not really. How could I? I have no evidence of any kind because she willfully chooses not to participate. Should we policy lynch? Maybe, but certainly not today. I've said that this is a pivotal lynch, and we have investigation results that we will have to act on in some way - results that we are still waiting on.

As far as Porkens and myself being rude: I can't speak for him, but I'm not really here to make friends - I'm here to play mafia, and I respect Porkens' play style whether he's scum or town. I would also like to remind you that I was not rude until I discovered Zazie's posting habit's, which I felt to be insulting to the rest of us.

@Zazie: Please step up to the plate and play this game. Pretty please. With sugar on top.

...or get yourself replaced so the rest of us can continue.

[Ropis]

I am

absolutely

here to make friends. Good friends make good mafia Ropis!

Are you buddying up to me?

Scum Tell!

[Ropis]

So, shall we assume that ZazieR and Skillit have refused to participate in the posting of scum lists?

Your call here Porkens - how shall we proceed?

[Ropis]

Just wanted to say that earlier when I was confused about the timing of Porkens' claim the only reasonable explanation I came to was that it was a Guilty on BL/Skillit - hoping to give Skillit the chance to show a connection to his scumbuddy being the reason for the delay, as well as the reason for the slow reveal after the claim.

Because we had established that the scum knew whether or not a cop was in play we had to be very cautious about accepting a claim, but in my opinion this one checks out. If you're scum, it has been well played, but I'm betting that we can follow you to a win. We have to verify it though, so the first order of business is to lynch Skillit.

If Skillit is town we of course have to lynch Porkens tomorrow.

If Skillit is scum then we have to ask ourselves two questions:

1) Is Porkens bussing Skillit? Shedding a teammate with limited participation to try to confirm himself as town would be a shrewd move, and Porkens seems to be a sophisticated enough player to make the gambit.

2) Assuming we think "no" to question 1 (as I currently do - but the question has to be considered by everyone) then we need to try to find connections to other players. I'm leaning towards:

#1 Epitaph: I think there are (admittedly weak) ties to Epitaph from both BL's question post and SKillit's read through summary post. Epitaph had also done enough on his own to get on plenty of scum lists, so he's my new #1 suspect.

#2 Zazier: This is meta, but in her GTKAS thread she stated that she much prefers to play as town. If she were scum, and was faced with the prospect of doing it basically alone, it

could

explain why she abandoned this game in favor of others. Also a weak link to her in BL's opening question post.

Afatchics recent play coupled with a complete lack of any connection to Skillit (at least none that I could find) have dropped him on my list to #3 - and a pretty distant third at that. If Skillit flips scum then I really think the last one is either Epitaph or ZazieR, and the good news is that we should have time to get them both if we guess wrong first.

Before I vote for Skillit, is there any other business we need to attend to before we string him up?

[Ropis]

Ropis, if you know what I'm trying to accomplish here, it would help the town if you actively supported that.

Sorry Porkens, but if you were making the play I thought you were then I can only help by keeping my trap shut to avoid tipping the hand, or taking

certain liberties

with the truth, which I'm not prepared to do. I guess I have to assume that I'm not as up to speed with you as I thought.

Just in case, I'm going to reserve further comment until you drop the other shoe (roughly 5-6 hours from now?).

Referencing this post - The play that I thought you were making was this: You had received a guilty result, and were hoping that a scum would counterclaim to try to lynch you. Best case scenario is it's the scumbag you didn't investigate counterclaims and the game is basically won. Even if we were convinced to lynch you you could have posted the investigation results and after you're lynched town we clean up the scum - game over. I didn't want to let the scum know that's what I thought you were doing so I tried to be vague, and the only way to "actively support" that play would have been to declare that I didn't believe you and attack you for your claim, hoping to draw scum into a counterclaim since they would believe that they had built in support from at least one townie. It would have been a very risky gambit for me to make, with a fairly low chance of success, so I hope you understand why I didn't make it.

How were you expecting that I would "actively support" your play? If it wasn't the above then I honestly didn't see it...

[Ropis]

If we are going to push for a ZazieR replacement, then maybe it's in our interest to get the replacement in and up to speed before we string up Skillit?

Or, maybe we take the chance that ZazieR IS the last scumbag, hammer now, and hope for an inactive mafia during the night cycle? Roll the dice to see if we can finagle a kill-free night?

[Ropis]

OK, Porkens has to be the cop, because if we had a Roleblocker and a Doc then we have to have a cop. If Porkens was fake-claiming to bus Skillit then the

real

cop should have counter claimed before allowing an unknown lynch. No one counter claimed, hence Porkens = Cop. If anybody wants to counter claim from here on in, I'll want to lynch the counter-claim first, so please do it today so we can win the game with a Porkens lynch Day 4.

I still believe Broncofan to be town, so this leaves Epitaph and ZazieR/Claus on my suspect list.

If Porkens has hit the other scum, then we can just win this thing, but if he didn’t I would like to hear Claus’ opinion on the game so far before Porkens confirms a townie.

Can anybody think of a good reason to handle any business before either of the above?

[Ropis]

Based on his dramatic shift in play between day one and day two, Ropis is my pick for the lynch today.

Well nuts.

With the confirmed cop leading the charge against me the chances of a Ropis lynch today skyrocket, and we can only miss one more time. Perhaps I can talk you out of it? Aside from the page one L-2 vote (and following reason) can you provide any examples of this "Dramatic shift in Play", or at least describe it in somewhat more detail?

Regardless, "Follow the Cop" is the right strategy for the town today, so if Porkens wants me to swing then that's probably the way we should go, but you will understand (I hope) that I choose not to self-vote. With only two unknowns left (from my current perspective), and my continued assumption of Broncofan's innocence, I will:

Vote: Claus

If I am lynched today, then Porkens will be NK'd tonight, leading to a Epitaph (confirmed), Claus, & Broncofan endgame. Obviously, I suggest lynching Claus in this instance. Broncofan's self-vote and hopelessness earlier

could

have been a subtle scum move dropping townie-tells, but everywhere else in the game Broncofan has been about as subtle as a sledgehammer. I recognize that it's WIFOM, but it's pretty strong WIFOM in my opinion.

I realize that my best defense in this situation would be to build a strong case against ZazieR/Claus, but I simply can't - there just isn't anything to go on. In fact, the only reason

I

am so sure of it is the above WIFOM and the process of elimination. I guess I'll give it a go anyway - we have 9 game-posts from ZazieR and 1 "here I am" post from Claus… I'll go over them again with a finer comb sometime soon - please don't hammer until I've had the opportunity to do so (should hopefully be within a day or so - 36 hours from this post at the absolute longest).

In the meantime I would be happy to discuss a case against me should anybody care to put one together.

[Ropis]

OK, so I went back through ZazieR’s posts, and even being nearly certain that she was scum I couldn’t find anything worthy of building a case around. Maybe my post analysis skills just aren’t up to par…

I am pretty sure that Claus is our last scumbag, but I have to admit that I might be wrong about Broncofan. We stand a good chance at a win if I’m lynched today and Claus goes tomorrow, but I’m

absolutely certain

that a Claus lynch today followed by a Broncofan lynch tomorrow (if needed) will be a win – the problem is I can’t make a solid case because there just aren’t any posts from our IC. Frustrating.

I would feel that I was letting the town down if I went to the rope without a fight, so make your case and I’ll do my best to argue against it. In case my best isn’t good enough, good luck on Day 4 Epitaph – the game will be in your hands.

[Ropis]

PROD: Broncofaninmd

(last post 11 days ago)

PROD: Epitaph

(last post 10 days ago)

Claus says he's gone until the 6th.

It's getting awfully lonely in here...

[Ropis]

Go team Venture!

Good game all - I'm glad to see that lurking wasn't a good enough strategy for the scum to win.

@Porkens: I loved the way you claimed, swinging your role and investigation results like a gavel and calling this gagglefuck to order. Maybe that tactic is common around here, but all I've ever seen is the cop to post results about 30 seconds after getting a guilty, then everybody proceeds to follow the cop until a town win or the cop dies. Your method was a great way to continue bringing pressure to bear on the scum, and I liked it.

@Afatchic: I understand and respect that as an IC you felt it was your responsibility to help drive the game on day 1 (especially given our other IC was lurking/flaking), but your aggressive play made it hard to swallow the Doc claim. I have to admit that if Porkens hadn't hit BL/Skillit on night one I would have been on board a Doc lynching wagon day 2, leaving us needing to bat 1.000 on days 3 & 4. Oh well, we got lucky and pulled out the "W" anyway.

Thanks for the game Mr. Flay!

[Ropis]

I see the writing on the wall. Do what you got to do.

John Elway would never give up so easily...

No, he would win the game in the last second!!!!!!!!!

Also - remember this? Number 7 would be proud!