Newbie 2108 - Postgame

[Aureal]

Well well well. I have detected incredibly suspicious behavior.

Someone is skulking around pretending to be a newbie and yet first played in Newbie 141, nearly 2000 Newbie games ago! Obviously scummy. VOTE: Aureal

[Aureal]

Oh no, not my fellow long-gone but returning scummer!
UNVOTE: AurealVOTE: Nicolosse for taking out Hellhound.

[Aureal]

Joke analysis? There are jokes in this game? But I didn't even see any [joke][/joke] tags!

[/joke]

[Aureal]

Everything is a joke if you laugh hard enough

Worldview... Shattered...

Excuse me while I blindly follow the wisdom of Elements.
UNVOTE: Nicolosse VOTE: Charles510

[Aureal]

Nice page top.

[Aureal]

Hmm. Fluff spam posts, you say?

[Aureal]

The wisdom of Elements cannot be disregarded!

[Aureal]

I was going to say that I doubt you would fit in my pocket, but then I looked closer and you do look to be pretty tiny, so maybe...

[Aureal]

Spoiler:

[quote="In post 7
This ISO feels lacking in bite. Obviously could just be because nothing has happened but there is a vote move here that feels chummy... almost too chummy. VOTE: Idlemuse

Can you elaborate on this?

Unsatisfactory explanation.
VOTE: Elements

Also by cactus:

(six fluff spam posts)

I see what you are doing there...

[Aureal]

Almost page 5, yay! And with a player still yet to make an appearance, boo!

[Aureal]

Aureal got any reads or leans or anything?

Quite possibly, but as I said, it's almost page 5 and we have yet to hear from a player.

A player who replaced into the game over 24 hours ago and has yet to even say hi.

I feel unloved.

[Aureal]

Yay!

(I'm trusting that you are not actually Flowey.)

UNVOTE: CharlesVOTE: Weuler

[Aureal]

Help, the mod is posting fluff spam to move us to page 5! Is that allowed?

[Aureal]

Yeah, on what basis are you rushing to defend someone who has done nothing but make a random vote and then go silent?

[Aureal]

Vote there if you like, but until Weuler shows again or gets replaced, anything directed there accomplishes exactly nothing.

If a replacement is actually needed, yes, it's pointless to try to pressure now. If Weuler is just being shy, though, this is hopefully encouragement not to be shy. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion yet that we need a replacement.

Aureal putting aside whether Elements fits nicely in your pocket, do you find them scummy?

Nope!

Or are you on the d1 Sheep Elements Train with me?

Whoa whoa whoa there. First it was "sheep all game" then it was "sheep until page 5" and now it's "sheep d1"? Inconsistency detected! I can hardly be on a train I can't even understand, can I?

[Aureal]

Sure!

...I'll see myself out, but not before I UNVOTE: Muse, I don't want an e-2 yet

Why were you so concerned about being at e-2 here?

[Aureal]

So, this morning you didn't want to pressure Idle because you don't want to put pressure on anyone super early. But here you are

[Aureal]

Wow, a missed key should not be able to submit a post early.

Here you are trying to pressure Charles just hours after not wanting pressure on IdleMuse. While also saying that you don't think it's useful to pressure people who are ghosting.

[Aureal]

It's been just over 8 hours since he said he'd been with family for Christmas and was about to get into things. Seems like we could give him a little time to do that, no? Either he follows through with that, or he continues to hide away in which case, in your opinion, it'd be useless to pressure, wouldn't it? How much time do you think it should take him to say more?

[Aureal]

I should clarify that I consider lots of things pressure, one being "lots of votes on me, I need to save myself here" pressure (that would be the e-2 pressure I wasn't a fan of) and another being "let's ask this slot some questions and see what shakes loose", y'know, like you're doing to me

They can co-exist obviously but are not the same thing

E-2 at this early stage really shouldn't feel like pressure, should it? Most everything was still RSV so who would put the last two votes on without discussion?

At any rate Charles' "absence" from the thread is materially different from Weuler's at this point and conflating the two would be a mistake

Howso? Both have given a RSV and that's it for content, save for Charles promising to be back with more soon.

Aaaaaand that's it for me tonight, boys and girls

Aureal feels towny to me here

Not gonna crawl into your pocket or anything tho

For one thing I wouldn't fit, for another there's already an axlotl in there and I have intimacy issues

Ahh, trying to get me to back off you, eh?

[Aureal]

I'm curious about Aureal's reads on the active people

I'm sure you are. How about you go first?

And Charles, who am increasingly disappointed to not have heard more from yet!

And maybe even our missing slot, but that may be a pipe dream at this point.

They've posted a bit, but I get the impression the posts lack content.

Bold of you to say given your own content!

Come on Pravowski, I'm sure you can get pronouns right even with an eatable brain

Whoops, sorry as well!

[Aureal]

Still want to hear Pav's response to my questions in 134.

[Aureal]

Did you just ask for someone's strongest read then explain why you find my play to be NAI as an example?

Yeah, I've raised my eyebrow at cactus for that sort of thing a few times. All questions and directives, little insight into their own thoughts. But then, I'm doing a lot of the same, so I can't exactly call it scummy, just grumble-inducing. And I'll possibly be inducing some grumbles myself when I respond to their request for my reads by pointing out that I asked for Weuler to give reads first, and that has not yet happened despite Weuler posting since. So I think I'll hold off just a bit longer.

I am getting very itchy to start pushing a wagon though, and tired of delaying because I don't want to give out too much information for potential lurk-scum to piggyback on.

[Aureal]

Scum are incentivised to be active as much as town so people taking inactivity as scummy is both unfounded and unhelpful

I don't really agree with this. Maybe the meta has shifted recently with your newfangled "daytalk" in "Private Topics" and all, but lurking has long been seen as an easy way to play scum, and people take issue with it as such. It's even noted in the game advice that people are likely to do so, so I don't think I'm that wildly out of the loop.

Given this is a newbie with the cursed slot going through what I assume are players new to the site, that scum PM can be intimidating and could be scaring the new players off

I'd say significantly more people join a mafia site then forget about/ not actively check after sitting in the queue for ages than those who join a mafia site to immideately give up after rolling mafia.

This I do agree with though! Particularly as it seems the vacant slot hasn't even picked up the PM to see the role.

PEdit: At least we've got a replacement now who hopefully has picked it up! So let's see.

[Aureal]

What do you think about post #19? I liked it until Elements started fishing for towncred in posts #36 and 39
The frustration in post #161 of getting scumread isn't how town would respond. It feels like Elements voted Idle because OMGUS. He's also constantly comparing himself to other players

I think you and Elements have polar opposite playstyles. Elements is very silly and you're very serious. I don't see any of that in those Elements posts, I see light-heartedness in the initial ones and I totally agree with 161.

Also, it makes it harder to follow what you're talking about and confuses things when you use the wrong pronouns for people. Elements is not a he, but seems to be who you're referring to in that last sentence there.

[Aureal]

Ok Weuler's ISO is so odd to me. Doesn't like the Elements big joke post, only shows interest in Aureal's reads, votes Charles to e-1 and then like touching a hot plate, immediately unvotes:

UNVOTE: MegAzumarill VOTE: Charles510. For now, pressuring here seems reasonable.

UNVOTE: Charles510 I misread the number of votes, taking them to E-1 seems a tad too much.

So are you pressuring Charles or not? And how, if not by voting?

What, in short, the f is going on here

I don't like taking someone to E-1 unless I strongly suspect they are scum. Makes it easy for real maf to "accidently" hammer. If Charles hasn't written anything by tomorrow I will consider pressuring further

Am I the only one nervous about how Weuler "accidentally" put someone at e-1 then later goes on to talk about the possibility of mafia claiming "accidental" hammering? It'd be a terrible play and nobody should expect to survive the next day afterward, but it sort of feels like Weuler trying to lay the groundwork for it. If the "accidental" e-1 wasn't itself a really bad attempt at quickhammering. Scum who doesn't really care to play scum and is fine with promptly getting yeeted might try it...

Also, if Charles hasn't written anything by tomorrow there'll be a prod out on them. *looks down at topic review* Well, speak of the devil...

Please don't vote for me! I haven't really done anything yet and I apologize. Things have been pretty hectic here.

I'm still waiting for Nicolosse

Anyway, Idle: care to explain why you've voted then unvoted Elements twice now? You're not even voting FOR someone, you're just not voting anyone.

[Aureal]

Considering they held the E-1 for exactly one minute it being a qh attempt feels pretty obviously false.

I don't mean Weuler wanting a partner to come in and hammer, I mean Weuler horribly miscounting and thinking the hammer was being applied with their post. And then immediately posting an excuse of miscounting- possibly a real recognition of miscounting or possibly trying to make it look like they don't even realize a hammer has been applied (except due to an actual miscount no hammer has been applied). Yeah, it's unlikely but if they miscounted enough that they didn't realize they were putting Charles at e-1 it's not that much more of a stretch to think the count could've been off more than Weuler realized.

I think it's natural to unvote there as scum to avoid attention or town not wanting a qh. Since weuler has pretty good reason to do it as either alignment I don't see value in not taking it at face value

I don't see a real reason for town to be afraid of a quickhammer at that point. It would cut the day short which isn't great, but wouldn't we have a great suspect for the next day then?

[Aureal]

I don't see a real reason for town to be afraid of a quickhammer at that point. It would cut the day short which isn't great, but wouldn't we have a great suspect for the next day then?

Logically
If you, as town, could mistakingly put someone at E-1 doesn't that logically mean another townie could make the same mistake? If town does and we blindly lim the qh we basically just lose. That great suspect doesn't look so great through that lens.

I feel like if two different townies are so careless as to put the last two votes on a random wagon accidentally, that town probably is going to lose whatever they do, and deservedly so. They're not paying attention.

Also, it would be a bad place to be, yes, but "basically just lose" is an overstatement. Assuming scum get their nightkill both nights we'd still be in a 3-town 2-scum configuration on day 3, which is still alive as long as we take out a scum that day.

It was a spontaneous deciscion to unvote so likely non of the logistics were thought through. Don't you think you would correct a mistake in the heat of the moment if able? Why wouldn't you?

I'm still not entirely sure you follow what I am postulating with my thoughts on the matter. I'm simply not taking Weuler's word that the "accidental" vote was accidental. That there's a possibility the follow-up "oops, miscounted" unvote was actually planned in advance as an excuse. Because, as you said, we wouldn't want to just blindly eliminate the quickhammer, so feigning ignorance is probably the best way scum could attempt such a tactic.

I'm not pushing it as some definite "this is what actually happened" theory, or that it's even more likely than it actually being an accident. But it fits the way Weuler's been (barely) playing; so particularly after the later post worrying about accidental votes, I felt like pointing it out.

[Aureal]

Aureal - self votes are never good things and despite what happens in the game, it will always linger. But like Elements above, I will commit to more tomorrow once in ISO.

Also, is this like, a

thing

I should address? I'm completely baffled here. I passed cactus's earlier comment about it off as RVS for a bit, which was weird because cactus does not at all seem into RVS and was in fact chiding Charles for doing so. Eventually figured that maybe there's something about it in the meta of where cactus played before. Have you played elsewhere too? This is only your second game here but you're definitely not coming off as inexperienced.

[Aureal]

Thanks for the feedback, Weuler!

I misread Alianna's post 125. Specifically, I misread the line containing Charles's vote as being the line containing the votes against Charles. Hence, I thought Charles had one vote at the time of Alianna's post, and then when cactus voted, I thought they had 2 votes on them, instead of the real number, 3.

This I actually find pretty believable (and distressing), because I just did the same thing up above after I asked about Idle's unvotes. Looked at the vote count after posting and read it backwards like the vote on Idle by Elements was Idle voting Elements still and got myself confused for a couple minutes trying to figure out if the vote count was correct. At least I wasn't voting in my confusion, though.

UNVOTE: Weuler VOTE: IdleMuse

I'm ready to start pushing this wagon finally!

I have been mod killed for self voting because apparently it was a trust tell (it wasn't).

That is very distressing.

Here, I've still got some to share!

[Aureal]

This ISO feels lacking in bite. Obviously could just be because nothing has happened but there is a vote move here that feels chummy... almost too chummy. VOTE: Idlemuse

I shrugged off Meg's initial poke at them as a joke given how early it was still, but when Idle responded to pressure by unvoting for no particular reason, it made them seem nervous. Nervous doesn't definitively mean scum, but it's a bad sign. Idle has previous mafia experience so shouldn't be getting so nervous as town.

I don't even understand the logic you're using re. ISO, and I think flippantly passing off an explanation (even if it was directed at Meg not you) with a screenshot with the word ELABORATION pasted on top is singularly unhelpful.

Getting worked up about a silly joke picture still speaks to a level of nervousness that seems much more odd for town.

I don't think there was anything wrong with putting me at e-2, if there was a quickhammer then it'd be rosy for us, at least one scum would basically have outed themselves. E-2 is not the same as a a hammer, esp. D1.

My reads right now:
Cactus and Aureal town
Elements scum, aggressive early play to build a leader position, esp. with focus on throwaway talk of sheeping which is obvs much more desirable for scum than town.
Everyone else neutral

VOTE: Elements

Jumping in with a 'no no, I'm not concerned about the votes on me, it's fine' post that is reasonable enough at first but if you poke at it a little more feels pretty scummy. It's Pavowski who's been bringing up sheeping repeatedly and others of us responding to it. Elements asked Idle what they thought about Pav's comment, which is either a reasonable question or silly goofing around in RVS. Idle is basically saying "Elements made a post with the word sheep in it, look how scummy that is!" while completely overlooking the obvious facts of how that came to be.

Do you dislike it because criticises you?

Trying to make Elements out to be the reactionary and thus scummy one.

I read your aggression as scummy but cactus' not because I felt your questions came out of the gate too quickly during RVS, like you were eager to use your knowledge to get the game started.

As I believe has been pointed out, there's nothing wrong with getting the game started. And I guess it could just be me not taking things seriously for a lot longer than others, but I can't read anything of Elements as 'aggression'. Whereas that is exactly the word I used to describe cactues in the notes I made to myself the other day. So trying to go after Elements but not cactus for it rubs me all wrong.

I'm especially not keen on how I asked for elaboration on a point, and you posted... A screenshot of the post with the word elaboration over the top. So quick to dismiss my question?

Still trying to dig in about the silly joke picture.

Post-Post-preview : I'm interested what posts from cactus you think are notably aggressive, of nothing else than because I am curious if I reading tone differently to you.

Yeah, uh, like I said, "aggressive" is exactly the word I found best fits cactus so Idle being unable to even see how it could apply just makes me shake my head.

On the basis that if you ARE town, the scum are sitting back and rubbing their hands, I'm interested if other people could weigh in.

Still with Elements in the "huh, what an odd comment?" feeling on this.

Finally back at a computer so I don't have to post from mobile, which makes quoting hard.

This one I totally understand though!

UNVOTE: Elements

And then another unvote! With nothing to replace it. Still makes Idle seem nervous and wanting to avoid trouble rather than be productive.

between Weuler and Charles, I can buy that Charles is snowed under with family or something. Weuler is just MIA a lot and I don't like what they have posted. Not specifically the E-1 thing, I can see that happening naturally in a situation where you post but then remember to vote count and realise. But rather, I didn't really like their initial focus on Aureal (I think it's one thing to drop a question to someone, a bit different to ask what you think of someone else), and nothing since then has made me go ah, very pro-town point.

Would have voted Charles otherwise, he has to start playing really. Especially now cursed slot has arrived.

And here we get Idle trying to redirect attention towards the inactives, because otherwise it's likely to keep coming towards Idle, as they seem have given up on trying to go after Elements. And probably focusing on Weuler because at that point my vote's still there. I agree it isn't useful to go after Charles at this point, as they either need to be replaced for being unable to find time to play or will get voted out later if the pattern of making "sorry I'm busy" posts every 30-ish hours continues. But it won't tell us much of anything to do it D1.

So, effectively, I find Idle's posts to be all over the place. They actually seem superficially a lot like I might once have played, trying to be rational and cautious. And maybe that's why I'm pinging Idle as scum so badly, because Idle keeps coming to all the wrong places with what sounds like should be decent reasoning.

PEdit:

It comes across as very opportunistic for me and almost appears like "buddying up" by Idle. Aureal asks a straight up question applying some pressure on Idle, Idle sees it as an opportunity to switch their vote to Weuler, who funnily enough happens to also be on the receiving end of Aureal's questions.

Yup, yup, that exactly. Put it better than I was able to.

Also dear god that is too many quotes and I needed to do way too much fixing to stop them from going places they shouldn't.

[Aureal]

I didn't agree with Idle's initial reasoning for calling Elements scum. However, his perspective on fear of leadership definitely comes from town.

Really? Town having people acting as leaders is not a bad thing, unless the leaders are scum. An effective town is likely to have some players taking more of a leadership role. And scum will find it harder to do such a thing.

Elements is very silly and you're very serious.

Well, this didn't age well

Snrrrch.

Tables of scum-pairs are still silly.

What do you think about scumteam 22 and 11 from post #294?

Meg+Weuler and Pav+Brick? The first more likely than the second I suppose, because I have nothing but good feels about Brick thus far, though it's early yet. Those would not at all be my first inclinations though.

I don't recall being frustrated at anything game related this game, if that was the tone 161 came across as then okie

I don't see frustration there either.

I appreciate the effort which has gone into post 294 but unfortunately i'm not a fan of post 294

I gonna say something similiar, but I'm just grumpy that now we're suddenly referring to possible scum-pairs by numbers referenced in a random post that's going to get progressively harder and harder to go back and look at. Let's please not make a habit of this, okay?

I only say that because I am in scum team 11, one of the three front runners. I know I am not scum so I know the logic is flawed. Thus, how can I then trust read 25 and 22, if I know read 11 is wrong. Simply doesn't make sense.

The game's not all about logic. You gotta evaluate all claims on their own merits.

My other remark would be why the need to hunt scum in pairs. I know it is a team game but each team dynamic will be different, and thus looking for a unique team pairing is super unrealistic. The game is hard enough looking for individual scum, why are we complicating it by hunting for pairs. I think focusing in on individual posts and nuances to find one scum. Once we have located the first, we can analysis the link between that slot and the remaining players. This is a more sensible, methodical can logical approach to hunting scum pairs.

Don't need to hunt in pairs, but it could be useful insight. Some of my own thoughts solidifying my reads have been about the interaction between possible pairs.

[Aureal]

17 most likely but I don't think any Charles pairs fit

I think we just have no real info on the slot yet and would not rule out Charles+anyone as a pair.

16: Miscommunication in 192/193 I don't think scum fake that

That actually seemed kind of contrived to me. A "why would you say Weuler hasn't contributed anything else" "well they hadn't yet THEN and you're looking at it NOW" exchange is unproductive for town but puts a bit of apparent conflict between them to keep some distance. I was actually looking into the thread between those posts and thought about clarifying the obvious issue because that's the kind of person I am, but decided to see if Pav would react to it, and he did.

I gonna say something similiar, but I'm just grumpy that now we're suddenly referring to possible scum-pairs by numbers referenced in a random post that's going to get progressively harder and harder to go back and look at. Let's please not make a habit of this, okay?

I think that would be so funny. Just using random numbers instead of naming pair then anyone who looks at this game will have no idea what's going on ahahaha

"In 531, 33 started trying to wagon 71 but 48 wouldn't get on board..."

[Aureal]

No, no I am not happy at all.

[Aureal]

So from this my proposed most likely scum teams are:
25, 22, 11
with possibly
13, 18, 27, 15
Putting Meg as fitting into the most scum teams followed by Pav, Brick, Idle, Aureal. Which I don't see as unbelievable. I'm towning Pav and Aureal and I'm happy with my voting being where it is but I could get behind a Meg wagon if others were interested in that.

So your most likely scum teams are me+Meg, Weuler+Meg, Pav+Brickwall? But Pav and I are town? So really you think it's most likely Weuler+Meg? I am so confused here.

[Aureal]

I find Brick's reasoning to be bizarre. I'm not sure if that really says anything about being scum or not though.

Yes, it's bizarre but I'm chalking it up to a mental block/way of playing that comes from other games. Possibly the table and formatting are overly confusing, I know I did not find that to be an easy way to interact with the data.

Logic keeps being talked about but as I said before, the game's not about logic. If your calculator says 2+2 is 7, the first thing you should do before deciding your calculator is broken is make sure that you didn't accidentally put a 5 instead of a 2. And we're just guessing at what the numbers we're putting in are.

If we want some logic though, why would scum refuse to evaluate two possible scum pairings which do not include themself? They would know they are at least 50% wrong and even if one is 50% right, it's the half that is their partner, not themself. So it's even easier to dodge talking about their partner if that's the desired tactic, because you're only being asked about them in a combination which is wrong and you know it.

[Aureal]

Right, to use my example above, Brick sees that Elements typed 2+5 instead of 2+2 on one equation. But then goes on to wave off evaluating any further equations because Elements mistyped one.

[Aureal]

Yeah, this is like, a total waste of time making much ado of nothing. If you all wanna vote Brick, can you please explain why you think being bizarre is scummy? I see absolutely no value to scum in doing what Brick is doing; the only thing it's doing is causing confusion that draws pressure onto them. Not exactly a great tactic for scum.

And hey, Weuler and I both agree on this being a waste of time, so if you think Brick is scum, you know at least one town is telling you that this is a waste of time.

[Aureal]

I think that would be a terrible idea for the town.

[Aureal]

Aureal is doing something I like to call bouncing.
It's a scum tactic/ natural consequence I've done poorly and seen others do well where you essentially fake participation in discussion.

So, is that you telling us what your strategy this game is?

It involves typically deferrment of others without giving reads of your own, mechanical/logical talk not directly linked to alignment (as scum can freely engage in those without surrenduring much information to town, a lot of Aureals engagement with the Elements/Brick feels like that.),

I'm a mechanical/logical kind of person, that's just how roll. Also, you really think that me trying to to discourage townpeople from wasting time wanting to wagon someone whom I perceive to be town over what's essentially a communication breakdown isn't linked to alignment???

and just all around not giving reads.

That's really funny because before I went to dinner tonight I was thinking I should do a run-down of how much of that

you're

bringing to the table, seeing as I want this wagon off Brick and I realized you were still basically flying low, and getting something else to discuss would hopefully help that. My take on Idle seems to have gotten drowned out by Elements's table.

Also, it's not really true. I acknowledged in 237 that I'm not giving a lot of my own thoughts on people (yet) and said the same of cactus.

Here's a Table of Contents of other reads of mine:

Confidence in Elements in 119
Nervous about Weuler in 260
Lengthy explanation of my thoughts about Idle in 285
Good feels about Brick (and by lack of mention the obvious implication that I do not have such good feelings about Meg, Weuler, and Pav) in 322
Not ruling out Charles as scum in 327 (like anyone would have!)
Wary of Idle+Pav team also in 327
Not hard to infer from 404 that I think the grouping of Brick/Weuler/me is most or all town

That's touched on everyone except possibly cactus, as my comparison there with myself was somewhat NAI, but obviously not being finding them to be scummy. My reads have been pretty consistent throughout the game though varying in strength, with the exception of Weuler graduating to town these last two days once I got the details about the accidental post and they started actually showing some useful activity.

Now, here's yours:
Faulting Idle's chummy tone in 46 (and others)
Cactus seems townie in 85
Elements being scum is a "spicy take", no real conclusion
Pav's last page feels natural in 174
Basic takes on cactus (town), Pav (genuine), Aureal (mixed but more green), and Elements (funny) in 212, then remembering Idle and coming to no conclusion in the next two posts
Still saying Pav feels natural in 229
"Thoughts on Elements can be inferred" in 259
"enjoying Brick" is not necessarily anything about alignment in 284
Acknowledges having nothing really to say about Weuler even as of 408 while still putting them in for elim

You'd given no reads on Elements or Weuler until your list just now. You've done several about-faces with little reasoning shown. Idle from scum to neutral to town. Aureal from mixed to scum (which you did eventually give reasoning for). Elements from (?????) to town (in your 408 list just now). Weuler from no reads to scum in 408. You're not doing any better at giving reads on people, which you're claiming is scummy of me, and in fact in 259 you actively deflected cactus's request for one while trying to make it seem like you already had done so. So...

@Aureal who are your top towns and why?

My thoughts can be inferred at this point from what I've said so far.

[Aureal]

@Cactus If you were forced to kill one player right now who would you kill and why?

I would kill Brickwall because he is throwing out perfectly good analysis instead of engaging in discussion

Should you not want to focus on eliminating scum? I asked for people to explain why they think this example is scummy, and I'm not getting any responses on that.

[Aureal]

I mean, come on. Neither Pav nor Meg has engaged in discussion of it either, despite expressing some intent to look at it later. Why upset people by flat out saying you don't want to, when you can just ignore?

Pedit: "Rolls the wagon off them"? The wagon is only there

because

of the supposed strategy.

[Aureal]

Hold on, since I'm still not asleep even though I really should be, it just now hit me that the "not directly linked to alignment" stuff Meg was saying about my foray into the Brick/Elements dispute makes it sound rather like Meg already knows we're all town.

[Aureal]

Also Meg is now down on both Weuler and I, after Elements put the two of us as Meg's potential partners in two of their top three pairings. It's 2:45am so I'm not sure what it means but it's funny.

[Aureal]

Yes. You aren't arguing why brick is town.

Nobody was arguing why Brick is scum, either. Which I've been asking them to do if they want to push that wagon.

You are arguing against an argument and even though I agree that Brick's response is probably NAI you aren't arguing what brick actually is.

C'mon, people can at the least know that I'm presenting myself as town, regardless of whether I am or not. Therefore by the act of trying to break up a wagon, it can be reasonably inferred that I do not think the person being wagoned is scum. Because someone who is town trying to break a wagon on scum is not playing to their win condition.

So you're saying that you agree with me here and have said as much. Doesn't change my argument it comes from scum if you are aware of it. Makes the following defence odd though

I agree that I am not the most forthcoming with my thoughts on players. You're the one trying to make a case that this is scummy, though, not me. I like to be careful and consider how much of my thoughts I should reveal, because that's giving info to scum, too, which could affect how they play. There's a balance to be had.

Confidence isn't really what I'd describe as a one word response to a direct question at you. You had to answer something regardless and this is the way to answer where you enagage the least with the question

But I even used an exclamation point! Seriously, it's 100 posts into the game and there was an awful lot of RVS playing around. Nothing else to be said at that point.

Both of these I mentioned in my post as where you engaged with your reads. First one about weuler I think is a bad and borderline silly case. An important note is you had to skip over 100 game post or 6 of your posts where you gave zero on reads.

As opposed to your posts which are always highly informative and would never consist of something like "no u"?

Yet again a response to a direct question and passing remark that doesn't actually go into the reasons of the read.

"What do you think of these teams" isn't asking for reasons, I answered the question. Have

you

given any thoughts explaining your reasoning for what you think about those teams, or are you just trying to come after me for not doing something you've done even less of? I think it's the latter.

Again a really weak comment that doesn't actually argue for Charles' alignment or state your opinion on them. You're essentially saying they arent conf!town which everyone here already knows

Wow, not arguing about the alignment of the person who's trolling by not playing therefore not giving us anything to argue over. How dare I.

Wasn't mentioned at all in the thread and can be interpereted differently.

Differently how?

Note this is explicitly a longer list and IMO more engaging.

An explicitly longer list? You've just been arguing that I'm scum because I've been posting too much stuff that isn't showing my thoughts well enough. But your list is longer, so you're fine?

Further, your list is longer as I was including things which are not actually explicitly saying what you think of someone's alignment. You use a good bit of weasel-wording like "Pav feels natural" and "enjoying Brick" that someone could maybe think that you're leaning town on them but that's not actually what you're saying. Idle, cactus, and (somewhat) myself seem to be the only ones who get explicit sorting.

This feels more like a summary of my play and implying it's scummy/similar rather than actually making a valid comparison. One big problem I have with you is the larfe number of posts you have that explictly

engage with the game in ways detracted from alignment

.

Implying? I literally said that you're not doing any better at that than I am. The difference is that you say not giving lots of reads constantly is scummy, and I think it's a playstyle. But when someone tries to pick at my playstyle as scummy while their own record is similar, they start feeling more scummy. And I don't even know what that last sentence of yours is supposed to mean.

Looking back through at your own words at what you consider your posts with reads it's as barren as I called you out on. It's not engaging with your reads in thread and them being pretty throwaway comments or direct answers only.

And nothing more has been asked of me. So I'm not just throwing random thoughts on people out, I'm saving some for when they might be more usefully applied.

Speaking of [/b]

@Aureal who are your top towns and why?

My thoughts can be inferred at this point from what I've said so far.

The why really can't. And this is you actively refusing to engage with the question so at this point I'll infer from what you said so far you are scum

This is a direct quote of yours being given back to you when you were asked a question. It was too perfect to not use there.

As for why- well, you've hardly given any such reads yourself so why demand it of me? The only 'why' you've given is cactus's aggression being town and the early talk about Idle being chummy seeming like newbie scum, which you then reversed with little to no explanation. I don't see the benefit in everyone coming along and going "yeah I think the same thing about cactus" so I don't go out of my way to do it.

[Aureal]

Meg/Aureal isn't the scum team

Nope, definitely not, sorry!

Unless they've planned this scum theatre because that was my leading pairing...

Isn't WIFOM great?

FWIW I will elaborate some more on my thoughts if others are interested, but I'm not in a hurry to leap to do what someone I'm getting scummy feels from demands, particularly when they aren't giving the elaboration they're demanding either.

[Aureal]

I'm not going to vote Charles at this point unless it comes down to deadline and we can't get a more informative wagon.

[Aureal]

That's e-1 too, as a warning.

Pedit: okay not anymore.

[Aureal]

Brickwall's dismissal of Elements' read is scummy, it feels like he just wants to push his own agenda.

But again, what is that agenda supposed to be? We're talking about Brick not wanting to bother giving a read on two specific possible scum-pairings, are we not? So far as I can tell this is the line that kicked off the firestorm:

I only say that because I am in scum team 11, one of the three front runners. I know I am not scum so I know the logic is flawed. Thus, how can I then trust read 25 and 22, if I know read 11 is wrong. Simply doesn't make sense.

How does it benefit scum to just refuse to talk about pairings that they know are wrong? It's easy enough to ignore, or handwave with a comment about them seeming off-base; or if they feel bold enough, try to use it to push a bad wagon. Brick took the hard path and just went 'nah, I don't operate that way'. Only possible use for this sort of thing I can see for scum is if they maybe felt they were being TOO townread and didn't want people to question why they weren't getting nightkilled later so tried to stir up a little drama but not enough to get voted out?? But that's a super-weak reason.

Brickwall is critisizing Pavo for his lack of contribution instead of engaing with him(349)

What, exactly, do you mean by that? Describing how you feel about someone's contributions is a form of engaging. I realize that you ask a lot of questions but that isn't the only valid thing to do.

In short I'd prefer to vote in Weuler / Meg / Charles and maybe Brick today.

I can agree with one of those.

UNVOTE: Idle, VOTE: Meg

I demand your elaborations

This is a test

<long high-pitched beeping sound>

Well, this doesn't mean you're off the hook as far as what I think of you goes either. But I suppose there's not a lot of reason to hold back either at this point.

Part of the reason I started seeing Idle as scummy was, as I mentioned, the nervousness after Meg's initial comments leading them to unvote. What I didn't mention was that the interaction pinged as possibly scummy for both of them as a team together. It may well be that I read things as RVS much more easily, but Meg's comment about Idle's chummy tone came completely out of nowhere to me and seemed like picking at nothing. A total fluff reason that was unlikely to lead to anything serious. Like a possible scum partner setting up distance or even a bus of a newbie partner early, so if Idle flipped scum later Meg could have all of the towncred for being the first one to point it out.

I've also seriously considered an Idle/Pav pair, since Pav unvoted Idle in 91 with the reasoning of not wanting e-2 yet. Which I later questioned Pav about. And wasn't terribly satisfied with "I dunno man" as a response to the question about who would put the last two votes on. So I thought it was interesting that Idle came in with the expected response noting that it'd likely be scum a bit later. And then there was the exchange between them over Weuler, which I noted earlier in 327 as a response to Elements having the opposite take on it.

Since part of my reads were the interactions as pairings, and it looked like people were starting to consolidate in their suspicion of Idle, I focused my earlier post on Idle rather than complicating things with possible partners. And I'd rather have gotten a claim first, as I could envision scum possibly adjusting what they wanted to claim if they thought we were already onto their team.

[Aureal]

I'm ready for this day to end but I also want more from Charles

Agreed, but looks like the mod is on it. Here's hoping!

[Aureal]

Who's

your

top scum, Idle? You're voting Charles for inactivity.

You too, cactus.

[Aureal]

Like what, Pav? If Charles is scum I don't feel like their partner is going to go out of the way to try saving their lurking partner. If we get scum today Charles is our obvious candidate to vote tomorrow.

[Aureal]

My top scumread is Brickwall. Scumleaning Weuler and

Elements

as a pair. My top townreads are idle and

Elements

Uh... what?

Disregarding information blocks himself from seeing Elements' perspective. Even if Brickwall disagrees with Elements, engaging for elaboration helps develop each other's reads.
I don't see why Brickwall wouldn't want to discuss at least one of the teams.

Is this supposed refusal to engage with the Elements pairings the only thing that has you putting Brick at the top of your list?

[Aureal]

Oops. I meant Weuler and Charles as a scumpair.

Just for the lack of activity?

His push on Pavo was also scummy
What's your read on Brickwall?

You're talking about 349? What did you find scummy about it? I think Brick misread Pav's comment about not knowing the playerlist yet, as I think Pav meant he doesn't know much about reading those of us he hasn't played with before rather than Brick's take that Pav didn't even know who was in the game. Other than that I don't really see anything to take issue with, and I agree with a lot of Brick's points. (some of which Brick was noting were my points which they agreed with so yeah)

While there's been a thing or two to make me raise my eyebrow at Brick, it feels like basically everything people are getting worked up about comes down to that blasted logic over scumpairing issue, and I don't like that. I don't see why scum would handle it the way Brick has, so they get some town points from me. Probably not at the top of my town list, but I think I tend to focus more on looking for what's suspicious rather than what's not, so that's probably not a very firm list.

[Aureal]

In fact, looking back at those posts of Pav's, like around 109, in conjunction with what Pav posted above, I'd consider it's maybe it's Pav+Charles, and Pav is frustrated with Charles's pretend absence. As a scumpair, he'd be in a better position to know that Charles is faking being busy, which would explain why he so readily differentiated Charles and Weuler at that point. Hoping to show his lazy partner the dangers of being lurkscum, he starts trying to get some pressure on Charles.

So now that we're nearing the end of the day, and Charles is still not doing anything, Pav is more than willing to throw Charles under the bus. He's been a bit overly fixated on Charles, and his comments above about a partner not being willing to save Charles at -this- point make it seem like he's hoping for towncred for being so gung-ho going after Charles all along. "When" Charles flips red, he said. Sounds like he's pretty sure of that.

[Aureal]

Oh, so I was curious and went digging into Charles a bit more. If you're voting Charles because you think the lurking means scum, please peek at Newbie 2106. Charles does not understand this game. This behavior is NAI.

[Aureal]

Cactus, I think we're just going in circles about Brick. I'm going to point out again that Brick engaged with it more than others like Meg and Pav have, and move on.

Spoiler:

In fact, looking back at those posts of Pav's, like around 109, in conjunction with what Pav posted above, I'd consider it's maybe it's Pav+Charles, and Pav is frustrated with Charles's pretend absence. As a scumpair, he'd be in a better position to know that Charles is faking being busy, which would explain why he so readily differentiated Charles and Weuler at that point. Hoping to show his lazy partner the dangers of being lurkscum, he starts trying to get some pressure on Charles.

So now that we're nearing the end of the day, and Charles is still not doing anything, Pav is more than willing to throw Charles under the bus. He's been a bit overly fixated on Charles, and his comments above about a partner not being willing to save Charles at -this- point make it seem like he's hoping for towncred for being so gung-ho going after Charles all along. "When" Charles flips red, he said. Sounds like he's pretty sure of that.

This absolutely just sounds like town not wanting to play with an inactive slot

And yet you're seeing Weuler's bland comments on Charles as scummy? What makes the one different than the other? They're both clearly irritated and I don't see why scum wouldn't be irritated but town would. Pav's irritation comes off scummier to me because of the cryptic comments, whereas Weuler's are stuff I might well have said myself.

As for my reads, I'm voting my top scum but would be fine with Idle/Pav too. BBT should get the chance to contribute. Town, well, that's harder. As Weuler just said, everyone can manage to do something scummy, so I rule nobody out with no info. Elements I suppose gets the most credit but I still have my doubts, I can see the table being a bold scum play to sow confusion, and as Weuler points out, it doesn't try to evaluate Elements as scum pair.

[Aureal]

And Idle, I asked because you were voting Charles yet expressing suspicion of Brick. I don't like that disconnect. We're running low on time to mess around with useless votes.

It's looking like Meg or Brick are the most likely flips today, so indecisive people, please stop being indecisive so we can do this properly. There's under 2 days left.

Meanwhile, I'm seeing that Idle and Meg are quite possibly working together seeing this and being worried about Meg flipping scum. Idle pushes the Brick wagon trying to keep it off their partner for now or at the least have an alternative partner for us to chase tomorrow. Then Meg comes in with the townread of Brick so her flip makes it seem like defending a partner. The two day silence could further indicate that strategy was being hatched in the scum topic.

[Aureal]

It's looking like Meg or Brick are the most likely flips today, so indecisive people, please stop being indecisive so we can do this properly. There's under 2 days left.

Not fully caught up yet, but, huh?

I don't expect you to have a vote ready yet, I'm addressing people like Pav and Weuler.

[Aureal]

I'm asking what makes you think it's between Meg and Brick because FMPOV that doesn't seem to be the case?

The remaining pages will probably help elucidate, and you can form your own opinion on them. But from my PoV I'm seeing plenty of people expressing vague suspicion or at most a null reading on Meg. Meanwhile, people are very split on Brick over a logic read issue, so if that faction wanting to wagon Brick sticks to its guns they could yet force it through. Nobody else is really getting pressure that I see since you've replaced our inactive troll.

[Aureal]

Brick, where are you?! You've gotta do something useful quick or you're at risk of getting replaced!

[Aureal]

No problem

I hear what you are saying on Aureal, and I know you said "almost" a townlock but I would say a townlock based off one thing seems like a huge call? I know I have just said they are my top townread but you saying townlock on Aureal actually makes me a little suspicious of you? Potential buddying?

It's good reasoning and I was hoping nobody was going to mention it yet, as scum might not have picked it up. BBT and scum are the only ones who know for sure whether BBT is town, so it's not as useful to the rest of you at this point because it could still be me trying to clear my scum buddy.

And now that I've acknowledged that I realized the implications, I leave you with the WIFOM argument that as scum I might still make that very suboptimal play just for the town cred.

[Aureal]

This actually makes me less confident it's a town play. Not a lot less, but you're cheeky for this.

Yeah, thanks, that was the point!

You talk about trying to buddy me and go and set me up for a night kill like this. Not very friendly.

[Aureal]

And now you want a

badge

for nightkilling me?! This is so not at all buddying.

The rest of you can feel free to keep your thoughts on the subject to yourself. I don't want your towncred. Maybe this can still be salvaged.

[Aureal]

OMG I wake up an hour early and check in to see the fallout from Weuler's bad voting and see this. Stop it, you're all crazy. You're not even pointing out the obvious mistakes each other is making, you're tearing into people over nonsense.

Brick: did you read the other game? Charles literally flamed out saying they didn't want to play mafia anymore then for some reason signed up to play mafia again just to troll us.

Cactus: BBT clearly said he'd only gotten to page 12 yet you're trying to claim he's all caught up.

@Brick Why do you think cactus' play is newbie? Quite to the contrary, I think they have some quite nuanced points that you have either misinterpreted or ignored.

Post-preview: @Elements my read on weuler is -actually- newbie town; indecisive, mostly. I don't see 578 coming from a scum mindset, it's a theory from nowhere that shows that they were thinking about the game and trying to puzzle it out, even if the logic itself is weak. Don't get me wrong, this isn't a strong read, but that's how I see it right now.

I could actually get down with this read on Weuler

This has mostly been my read on Weuler too. Weuler comes up with good, unique points here and there, though flies rather low. The Charles PR thing you're all getting upset with is a thought that I had had too, which is part of the reason I went looking deeper to find out if this was typical play. It was an argument I would've brought up if people had kept trying to push that wagon. Now that we've seen that it is typical regardless of what Charles is, bringing it up is meaningless, it's not going to help find PR. As far as opportunism, I literally have been telling them to get on a wagon. They lose points for which wagon they got on, that sealed it as I knew Idle would just get right back on that Brick wagon given any cover. But this close to deadline is not the time to be holding back.

Agreed with Brick on cactus: this is not good play from cactus. "You're not going to flip town" really??? Not even a possibility?!?! Totally infuriating, and I'm not even the one cactus is targeting. Talking to cactus has felt like talking to, well, a brick wall.

You guys are doing bad things to my sleep.

[Aureal]

I am not surprised, it's a clear choice for a fake claim to draw out a real cop. Let's evaluate carefully who should cc if relevant. Elements can you break down why just those roles should? Obviously doc shouldn't but I'm at work so hard to analyze further. Remember scum know which column we're in.

[Aureal]

Scum shouldn't bother fake claiming cop if in B as no cop to draw out. But if there is a FN anyway because Meg is making a very poor choice of fake claim we should probably hear from them.

And we probably want a tracker to stay quiet rather than the jk because investigation.

Still noodling, please check logic.

It's gonna suck if we really are in a cop row, because scum will know if it's safe to nightkill them or not.

[Aureal]

Tracker vs JK is hard because we would only maybe have a tracker, but definitely a JK in that row. And scum would know whether to expect a tracker to exist or not. Ask BBT.

Actually if a tracker does exist the jk can protect them. So probably they should cc.

Mason should cc.

[Aureal]

So anyone but doc and JK (yet) should cc, if my reasoning holds. Unfortunately we may not have enough time to properly evaluate the tracker/JK at this point with under a day left. This is why I wanted to get wagons sorted earlier.

[Aureal]

Idle, cop fake claim isn't just unlikely if we're in B it's downright stupid, unless they're counting on town being too disorganized to effectively cc. Out a FN, no big loss. Or tracker who gets doc protection.

VOTE: cactus why the eff not, this is a clusterf

[Aureal]

You should probably skip some pages for now. We've got two claims including a cop claim.

[Aureal]

I believe those of us who are active right now agree with 682 so if you're a pr please make sure you check soon if cc is needed.

[Aureal]

I'm sad we're picking on our only actual newbie.

Not sold on the wagon but it doesn't matter at this point. Weuler reminds me a lot of me, and remembering how I started thinking about how Charles might be a PR gives me a little more doubt, because I was pondering whether scum would save us the trouble and NK Charles for us.

[Aureal]

Why cactus though Aureal?

Like I said, why not? I can't get into cactus's head at all, and Elements started it. Are we trying to get yet another claim before night? I don't know what shenanigans Elements is up to and was going to come vote Pav for posterity's sake for trying to get me nightkilled.

BBT, you should get your answers when you get further in the thread. I'm at work and getting too distracted by this as is.

[Aureal]

It was a foolish comment to make there if so. Which is possibly his MO.

[Aureal]

Already, Elements?!

[Aureal]

One of your elements is definitely chaos.

Good luck everyone, probably don't have time for anymore thoughts now

[Aureal]

We haven't even had a chance for cactus to check in yet, for one.

[Aureal]

We know we're in column C then

We do? I don't, because I'm not scum. It does seem much more likely since if scum had a roleblocker they'd

probably

have just blocked Meg to prevent any investigating from happening and killed someone else (like me), but they could've suspected it was the mason fakeclaiming cop strategy and just went for the kill anyway.

VOTE: Elements, not waiting for cactus to potentially cc seems incredibly suspicious to me.

I wanted to vote before going to bed and cactus wasn't going to be online before then.
The fact that Meg is dead completely undermines this point. The only reason to stop someone from ccing would be to protect the fake claim. The claim was real so the only reason for a cc would be to get a 1v1 where at worst both get voted out.

There is something wrong with the thinking of this post but it's too Saturday for me to get it tonight

I have a bit of a problem with the first line but the reasoning checks out.

Now, for where to go from here: I don't know exactly why Meg claimed so easily as there was no intent to hammer and may well never have been, maybe she was busy and concerned about a quickhammer not allowing her to get a claim out. But I do know who apparently really wanted that claim and immediately flipped back over to her wagon to get it once she said she'd claim at e-1. I was concerned before that I might out another PR by pointing it out yesterday but now that we see the truth it's clear that's not the case.

VOTE: Idle

You get a reprieve for now, Pav.

P-edit: oh god such spam

[Aureal]

I don't think scum risk not getting a kill on a hunch. Not that it matters now anwyay

Not disputing that it's most likely the simplest explanation, which is that we're in C. But in addition to the mason possibility there's also the possibility that the doc would anticipate the scum going for someone else to kill since they could just roleblock the cop, and try to stop that kill. Which would most likely be me. So the scum would try to go for someone else because the doc would anticipate that they would go for me and so maybe they should go kill Meg after all. But the doc should be there so they should go for someone else. But the doc could -



Okay, fine, let's just say it's C. Doesn't matter to us anyway, they can't roleblock a mason anyhow. Because a mason doesn't do anything.

[Aureal]

My read was that meg and you were scum, and since it looked unlikely that there were enough people to eliminate you, I switched to meg. I was also hoping for more content from meg, rather than just sitting back and not doing much, and that post they made at that point was not the contentful examination of the current wagons and cases that I was hoping for. So I swapped my vote.

What made you feel it was unlikely there'd be enough people to get Brick?

Re. my vote on Elements today, I think she answered the points about her voting behaviour at the end of D1 well enough, like, I had no scum read on elements at all in D1 so it was literally just that hammer action and I think the defense she has made makes enough sense now that I'd consider it neutral.

UNVOTE: unvote elements

You didn't give any thought of your own to the possible circumstances in which the hammer coming there could be advantageous to certain parties during the night? Because it rather seems like trying to turn my startlement with its swiftness into trying to start something on Elements there with no real reasoning behind it.

Cactus' scum play reminds me of my own.

How do you know what cactus's scum play is like?

[Aureal]

This was something that I questioned D1 as I was catching up; I can't remember if it was you that said it, but someone made out that D1 was a decision between Meg or Brick and no-one else was a consideration. Made me uneasy at the time and even more so in light of Meg's flip.

That would be me, and my prediction definitely showed strength as both of them got wagoned into claiming (a bit prematurely IMO). I did not anticipate that people would be so chaotic as to then back down after hearing not one but two claims and go after yet

another

target (though I'd have picked Weuler as the likely target if I did seeing as they'd already tried a flash-wagon on them), and it doesn't speak well to town's play that this happened. I'm still trying to figure out why this happened, it seems to largely come down to Idle apparently not understanding that town simply cannot let D1 end without a flip, and you popping in to stoke the fires without having even read half the game.


Please respond to my question for you above.

[Aureal]

No, it's silly.

You say something that clearly looks like a scum-slip and can't even come up with anything other than this deflection?

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Let's test this.

Am I playing a different game? Where were there two claims?

Uh, maybe you are? Brick claimed VT and Meg claimed TC.

[Aureal]

Aureal and Brick, can I hear why you're scum reading Idle? Their thoughts felt very genuine yesterday. Especially their take on Elements
If

I've maintained a scumread on Idle for most of the game. The flipping back over to Meg's wagon to draw out a claim only enhanced it. That was the point where both wagons broke down and people panic-wagoned Weuler instead. All that chaos should have been avoided if Idle had stayed where they insisted they really wanted to be, on Brick's wagon. Pav was an easy call to get back on Brick's so someone else would have had to join it eventually, but Idle is now professing ignorance about the concept that no D1 elimination is bad for town. Not sure how much I buy it.

Here's a rundown of what seems to be notable events of the part of the day.

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.17

MegAzumarill (E-2): Elements, Aureal, IdleMuse
BlueBloodedToffee (1): cactus
Aureal (1): MegAzumarill
Brickwalll (1): Pavowski

Not Voting (3): Weuler, BlueBloodedToffee, Brickwalll

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an elimination.

cactus votes Brick
Weuler votes Brick
Brick votes Meg, putting her at e-1
lots of Brick/cactus anger
Idle votes Brick, making Brick e-1 instead of Meg
Brick claims VT in next post "as I’ll be back online this evening only", is apparently frustrated enough to continue to post for next 4 1/2 hours
Brick moves Meg vote to Weuler
"Flash wagon on Weuler anyone?" from Elements
"could be fun" from Pav
Elements moves Meg vote to Weuler
Pav moves Brick vote to Weuler
Pav apparently criticizes Weuler for being the third vote on a wagon while being the third vote on Weuler's flash wagon
Idle gives newbie town read on Weuler
Elements moves Weuler vote back to Meg
Pav "could actually get down with this read on Weuler"
I agree with the newbie town Weuler read as well
Brick unvotes Weuler, votes Meg

Votecount 1.18

Brickwalll (E-2): cactus, Weuler, IdleMuse
MegAzumarill (E-2): Aureal, Elements, Brickwalll
Weuler (1): Pavowski
Aureal (1): MegAzumarill

Not Voting (1): BlueBloodedToffee

Weuler expresses doubt of Meg but "cannot find anything concrete"
Elements replies with "Can I persuade you to move your vote there?"
Weuler says "Give it a try", is clearly in no hurry to do so
Meg states she'll claim if she hits e-1
Idle takes not even 2 minutes to once again swap vote on Brick to Meg
Meg claims TC
Meg votes Weuler
Elements unvotes Meg
Elements asks for JK or mason to cc
Discussion about who should or shouldn't cc (in which I forget that JK would also RB the tracker so maybe that's not the optimal thing to do after all, but it would also help eliminate the possibility of scum getting away with tracker fakeclaim later so might be worth it, but now it's clearly not relevant to our game)
Elements votes cactus
Brick moves vote on Meg to Weuler
I vote cactus
BBT brings some more old stuff up, gets notified of need to read recent stuff/claims

Votecount 1.19

Weuler (E-2): Pavowski, MegAzumarill, Brickwalll
Brickwalll (2): cactus, Weuler
cactus (2): Elements, Aureal
MegAzumarill (1): IdleMuse

Not Voting (1): BlueBloodedToffee

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an elimination.


BBT votes Weuler to e-1
Elements gives intent to hammer

I don't like how this is your only thought out of that whole discussion. What did you think about the rest of the interaction?

I didn't dissect every line, it had all already happened by the time I looked at it so I noted a few things that most jumped out at me as most of it seemed like the two of you uselessly going at loggerheads with each other. And even doing that was messy enough that I had to get up out of bed and come to my computer to type out rather than doing on my phone before heading to work.

[Aureal]

Was this where your head was at when you hammered Weuler?

My head was at the first line of 751 and the cop claim has offered someone up as their scum read and voted there

Why wait until you're the hammer vote, then?

[Aureal]

They always say people who have something to hide say more than they have to and give far more detail than they have to. Aureal's response to BBT's call out of 'Brick or Megs' bandwagon seems just like that - long and convoluted filled with unnecessary detail.

You're weird. Ever read Sherlock Holmes?

Also, it's weird that anyone would even think it's possibly scummy for a person to describe the current state of the game.

Also, the use of inflammatory language like 'stokes the fires' (excuse the pun, how could I not?) seems defensive.

I call it like I see it. BBT wasn't even just throwing another vote on to make sure it happened, he was saying things like "the Weuler wagon looks CLEAN" to make it seem more inevitable.

Whilst I think BBT's response to Aureal's question was silly in itself, he could have simply answered the question and moved on. Although, the question wasn't great and I do think the context in which Aureal is reading the question is very far from what BBT meant. It was clear that BBT was implying that in previous games where he has played as scum, his play style is similar to that of cactus. Whereas Aureal is interpreting it as "I know cactus is scum because I am his scum buddy, omg this is a scum slip".

It is not at all clear what BBT meant, I read the actual words that he wrote. If he meant something else he should fix his words. Rather than clarify himself, he got "defensive" to use your words and refused to do so using "inflammatory language."

Then Aureal follows it up with a poor vote based on this above 'silly' question. Seems weak imo.

Soooo, you think scum is going to abandon what could likely be a promising wagon on Idle for this? The BBT/cactus thing totally goes against what I've been thinking so far so I'll be sad if it's true as that means I'm not doing to well at detecting scum, but you can't just see something like that and NOT point it out.

[Aureal]

Being called weird first thing on a Monday morning is probably the nicest compliment anyone has ever paid to me And yes, I absolutely love Sherlock Holmes. If you haven't read it then I suggest you get started, you will not regret it.

"I see," said I as I glanced down the column, "that the coroner in his concluding remarks was rather severe upon young McCarthy. He calls attention, and with reason, to the discrepancy about his father having signalled to him before seeing him also to his refusal to give details of his conversation with his father, and his singular account of his father's dying words. They are all, as he remarks, very much against the son."

Holmes laughed softly to himself and stretched himself out upon the cushioned seat. "Both you and the coroner have been at some pains," said he, "to single out the very strongest points in the young man's favor. Don't you see that you alternately give him credit for having too much imagination and too little? Too little, if he could not invent a cause of quarrel which would give him the sympathy of the jury; too much, if he evolved from his own inner consciousness anything so outre as a dying reference to a rat, and the incident of the vanishing cloth. No, sir, I shall approach this case from the point of view that what this young man says is true, and we shall see whither that hypothesis will lead us. And now here is my pocket Petrarch, and not another word shall I say of this case until we are on the scene of action. We lunch at Swindon, and I see that we shall be there in twenty minutes."

I like to keep this in mind, and try to evaluate whether details make sense. That's why I accepted Weuler's explanation about their accidental vote, the detail rang true. There was no need to make them up.

Don't think its scummy you described the state of the game, just scummy how long and convoluted it was

I described it in 522 to try to get people to organize before the last minute. It didn't work too well. Last minute shenanigans led to the end of day going very poorly. And BBT apparently objects to the idea that someone would like people to organize and avoid that sort of mess? Can't wrap my head around it.

Also, "long and convoluted"? It was three sentences.

Yeah, no doubt that BBT's comment "the wagon looks CLEAN' is strange in itself, I wouldn't necessarily say that is stoking the fire? That is merely his opinion of the wagon, although with the benefit of hindsight that comment didn't age well did it?

I find it strange you want to read a lot into a throwaway description then go on to twist around the actual meaning of words below.

As for BBT and the silly question, I would still have to say that your interpretation of it is reaching a bit. I think the literal interpretation is very much what I described specifically. Perhaps he should have been more specific, and say what you mean/mean what you say - but in this instance I stand by my thoughts.

It's not my interpretation, it's literally what the words say. If you want to guess they mean something else, that's your call, but it was obviously a slip. Whether it was a scum slip or just a slip, that's what we get to try to figure out playing this game.

You are entitled to vote where you like, as townie our vote is our power and we can wield it how we like. But, if your reasoning to vote BBT is purely because of his failure to answer that question then I maintain it is a week case. Considering you quoted that as your reason when placing the vote is why I think your case is based primarily off this vote.

Surely I don't need to make a full case on someone every time I vote!

Elements, you're in so much trouble with Brick.

[Aureal]

I'm very aware even before today that no-elim was bad for town, and that town should always eliminate someone D1 (being that everyone is of unknown alignment), but, my impression was that scum would prefer a town elimination over a no-elimination (being that they know who is town). That's what I was not getting. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'd tend to think scum wouldn't care too much about town vs. no elim because town shouldn't let the latter happen.

Idle is now professing ignorance about the concept that no D1 elimination is bad for town

Why do you think this is ai in any way?

If true, it wouldn't be. I said I'm not sure how true it is.

So, how about my question about why you waited until you were the hammer vote on Weuler?

[Aureal]

689 just shows that your read on Weuler was wrong. Being wrong doesn't mean you're scum, but it doesn't exonerate you either. I'm not asking you to justify your vote at all, I'm asking everyone else to consider that that may have been an opportunistic vote on a wagon that was rolling, rather than one grounded in legitimate suspicion.

Yeah, I feel like town makes that vote in those circumstances some of the time, but scum makes it almost every time. Push a bad wagon with the "deadline coming, whaddya want me to do?" defense? Why not? So on balance, a bit scummy.

A quote from fake Sherlock. We all know Sherlock is British. He lived at 221B Baker Street. So why would Sherlock or Watson spell favour as "favor" unless he was scum is disguise. Quite simple when you think about it, or should I say - elementary my dear colleagues.

I'm flattered you think I can emulate the writing of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle well enough that the only thing suspect about it is the lack of a Britishism.

Crazy how I'm gunning for Cactus and he is just pretending I don't exist.

Do you find that suspicious?

Has. anyone ever tried to hunt for scum in pairs? That would probably be an interesting way to approach the game.

In this game for instance, if we were scum pair hunting, my money would be on pav + aureal scum team.

I've had a long one at work. I'm trying hard to read the day's posts but I'll admit I'm glazing over and can't get any thoughts to connect.

Me + Aureal as the scum team did make me lol, though.

Ditto to both, I signed up for eight hour workdays not 11.5. But that's what you get for trying to buddy people, y'know!

[Aureal]

My man can read.

Correctly interpreting a desired meaning from poorly-written text is typically a fine skill, but in the circumstances of playing a game which is literally about trying to find things people say which do not match up, is not that helpful. This is your quote.

Hmm, OK. I realise this method is flawed before I say it but Cactus' scum play reminds me of my own.

In this sentence, there is an implied "scum play" at the end, drawn from the parallel with cactus. The sentence would read with the meaning you want if it went "Cactus' play reminds me of my own scum play." The word "scum" has no place in conjunction with "cactus's play" unless you are positioning yourself as possessing knowledge about how cactus plays scum. I cannot think of many ways for you to know that. 1) you and cactus are scum partners, or 2) you have seen cactus play scum somewhere else. You rather rudely refused to elaborate or even correct your mistaken wording. I am left with nothing but those two possibilities or the possibility that you are falsely claiming knowledge about cactus which you do not have, which I find rather scummy also.

Further, the use of a methodology which you yourself acknowledge to be flawed like comparing someone's play to your own and drawing alignment conclusions from it comes off especially strange given your sig.

Umm, what? My comment about the Wueler wagon looking clean was implying that it was a town-driven wagon and was unlikely to contain any scum on it. Are you trying to say that I was pushing through a wagon on someone I wanted elimmed? I'm guilty as charged!

So in other words, 'stoking the fires'?

Soooo, you think scum is going to abandon what could likely be a promising wagon on Idle for this? The BBT/cactus thing totally goes against what I've been thinking so far so I'll be sad if it's true as that means I'm not doing to well at detecting scum, but you can't just see something like that and NOT point it out.

You're gonna need to clarify some reads for me.

Are you saying Idle is town now? Further, if you truly think I scum slipped, you can just help me elim Cactus and we go from there?

I'm saying my suspicion of Idle was overtaken by my suspicion of you. And you're higher on my potential scum rating than cactus.

[Aureal]

If Brick got eliminated instead, would you have scumread someone else for changing their vote "to draw out a claim"?

I'm not clear what you're asking here? If Brick got eliminated it'd probably have been better than what actually happened! And I see Idle as being a significant catalyst for that chaos. Why do

you

think the Brick wagon fell apart?

Meg volunteered to claim in post #670. That doesn't make the next voter automatically scum

It doesn't, but it doesn't reflect too well on them either, particularly when it takes less than two minutes to jump on that offer. Like I said, I'm guessing Meg was especially sensitive to the possibility of a quickhammer because of her role and that's why she claimed so easily, so the possibility of outing a PR could've been anticipated there when she made that offer.

You seem to be going for everyone that was on Weuler.

You're gonna have to explain your reasoning on that one because I think it's pretty clearly not true at all. Except in the sense that I don't rule out players unless there's actual good reason to.

Weuler does not remind me of you.

That's okay, you aren't me, you aren't in my head! Though I did repeatedly point out things where I thought Weuler was nicely in sync with my thought process.

There was nothing notable from Weuler's ISO that would make me read him as newbtown.

Then I guess you were wrong, eh?

In fact, his understanding of Elements' post in #359 indicates a complex understanding of the game
Your townread on Weuler and opposition to his elimination at EoD1 feels unnatural, like you are just pocketing him because he sheeped your reads in posts #385, 401, and 503
VOTE: Aureal

You think someone is going to buddy/pocket a player who's about to be eliminated?? I'm referencing mafiascum's wiki and that doesn't make a lick of sense with its definition, so please explain what you mean?

... and 503 isn't even agreeing with what I had said. You like using slang terms but maybe you should double check that you're using them the same way they're used here.

[Aureal]

I feel like I don't know anything this game

I feel like everytime I feel like I know something, people go out of their way to grab it and smash it against the wall.

[Aureal]

Why you voting town, Elements?

[Aureal]

IDK WHO'S TOWN AND WHO ISN'T!!!

Such LAMIST, Elements!

[Aureal]

Am I taking crazy pills? Did Aureal say I was town?

Nah, Pav is town

VOTE: Pavowski

Just amused.

[Aureal]

Brick's wagon fell apart because I was not at EoD and everyone CFD'd

Don't know that acronym, so that tells me nothing. Crazy Freaking Dumbassed?

I'm not asking you why Brick's wagon fell apart. I'm asking why you think putting Brick at E-1 to get a claim from him is any different from putting Meg at E-1 to get a claim

Well for one obvious thing, Brick never pre-announced an intent to claim?

Why do you scumread Idle for voting Meg to E-1?

If you don't get it yet I don't think I can help with that.

Waiting until later to put Meg at E-1 just means there's less time for people to change reads.

A reasonable point, though one I doubt was considered in the 1.5 minutes it took for that vote to be made.

If Idle was scum, he'd just wait for someone else to vote it and frame that person for rolefishing.
Similar to what you're doing

"Frame"? Are you suggesting that Idle isn't the one who made that vote?

You're scumreading Elements for hammering Weuler.

I am???? Please explain.

In hindsight, yes these are two different people

What?

Why aren't you thinking more about why they did the things they did?

Glad to know you know what I'm thinking about!

Do you think scum would be so openly obvious?

Maybe? If you stop calling out things that are 'obvious' because scum wouldn't be so obvious, then scum will do the obvious.

Which posts? Your only interaction with him are in posts #279 and 382. It's hard to believe that you defended them so hard just because of that

How about these ones? (Also 382 is actually several posts of conversing through 385)
General comments which can give some indication that I'm okay with Weuler in 404, 457
521 has me not just once but twice noting my agreement with Weuler
660 has me agreeing that Weuler seems like newbie indecisive town and pointing out how they thought along the same lines that I had
That post 708 which you have a problem with was actually me backtracking slightly and bringing up one of the few vague hints of possible scumminess I'd gotten!

You are defending someone who you know is town so that you can push everyone who voted them the following day. That is only possible if you are scum.

So much of what you say like this is so obviously wrong that I feel like we're not even seeing the same game. By "push everyone" you mean "push one person"? Like geez, I've not been pushing Elements, Brick, or Pav today, Idle wasn't on the Weuler wagon, and I don't think you've said a peep about my interaction with BBT so it doesn't seem to be what you're concerned with.

[Aureal]

But, why would one Vanilla Townie be better than another?

Well, we have the hindsight now to know that the one we got was really a townie and you're still only potentially a townie. But really I'm talking about the whole sequence of events. If your wagon had held, however much I may have disagreed with it, we would've avoided outing a power role. Losing a VT is better than having a VT claim+a power role outed+losing a VT.

[Aureal]

These are your next 4 posts, again you look busy and are interacting but I don't see town actually moving forward with these contributions. That is my concern with your posts and that is why I am voting for you. I am rushing now as my laptop battery is on its last legs and don't want to lose the post. But yeah, it might just be your playstyle and I will learn that. But, I will have to learn that by voting you out. To be honest I actually don't see how other townies think those posts are adding value for our hunt?

I don't think there is a lot of 'value' either, I hear ya. I am starting to feel like this is probably reasonably like Pav's normal style though. He's played with Elements and Meg before, and on D1 they were all like "Pav feels natural" and "Pav is town" so I had to just kind of shrug and resign myself to this being the status quo even though I was pretty suspicious of him.

I could be wrong here, but this post has me rethinking scum leanings on BBT. I don't know if BBT has meta'd me (the sig would lead me to think probably not), but regardless, and given Brick's (fair, I think) assessment of my posting this game, I'm a pretty easy mislim target. Given BBT's style, I don't think they'd pass on the opportunity.

You're an easy target? Man, why you gotta make me feel so inadequate for not being able to get you?

[Aureal]

I'm going to do this once and once only. The word scum is in conjunction with Cactus' play because I am scum reading Cactus, it's that simple. I view Cactus as scum, as such, Cactus' play will be described as scummy. If I could be bothered, I could genuinely find 1,000s of examples of me speaking in definitive terms when not knowing somebody's alignment. You're just gonna have to take my word for it until post-game though.

I hear where you are coming from and as a person with the opposite communication style I disagree with it. I've certainly been scumread for being too wishy-washy by putting in lots of language to make sure people know that I am not certain of things, so I feel like you've probably been around this block too with being called out for your overly certain style.

Know who else is overly certain? Cactus. Whom you've said is playing like you do when you are scum.

This makes me big sad. Is playstyle AI? What if Cactus is aggressive as either alignment?

Are you just now asking that? I've been figuring this is just how cactus plays, whatever their alignment, because it seems like it'd be awfully hard to be like this some games and different some other games.

Yeah, which is interesting given that Aureal scum reads him but seems unwilling to vote there.

Cite for me scum reading cactus? I believe I've said that I do not understand cactus, that I cannot get into cactus's head. While that last round of posting didn't do them any favors in my book, I'm still holding out some hope of curing their apparent confusion which is why I broke down my response as much as I did, rather than doing what I was tempted to do and just waving it off with my closer about how I feel like I'm seeing a different game than cactus is.

Aureal, why don't you want to vote Cactus?

Also reasons that may be bogus.

[Aureal]

Okay, I will give the obvious answer: I'd rather you built a convincing case based on solid observations and voted for that, rather than Weuler.

You don't think my reasoning for voting Weuler was solid?

How could it be? You hadn't even read half the game.

Just checking, you

did

use the downtime to get caught up, right? It doesn't really feel like anything about your reads has changed from where you were when you were posting about stuff from around page 7.

[Aureal]

Can you elaborate on post 521 and 660? What posts are you referring to when you talk about mindmelding and his unique points?

Sigh. 521 literally gives one of those unique points. "as Weuler points out, it doesn't try to evaluate Elements as scum pair." from 318 And of course the "PR hunting" you accused Weuler of.

*sees following posts*

Y'know what, never mind. Not gonna waste my time with you anymore. Just try to figure out if you're doing this because I'm onto your scum team or you're just that stubbornly wrong.

[Aureal]

Aureal v Cactus has me flip-flopping back and forth on the both of them a lot.

Curious what value you see in cactus's mindset of "I had a bad read on Weuler therefore it's impossible that anybody else had a better one!"?

Elements: post frequency is a lot, but, so little actual content, just lots of naked votes. Saying you can't read the game is a great way (well, not that great) to disavow your naked votes in the future.

Yeah, this has been my concern as well. Apart from the Table of Doom, which I once again remind people didn't even analyze Elements as possible scumpair, it's been a lot of this. I've been hoping that Elements is town mostly because statistically that's most likely the case and therefore can be given some blind trust for a while, until we can analyze what Elements is actually doing with all those unexplained movements. Confidence in her is declining though.

Elements: how long do you think we should wait on looking at possibly bogus reasons? Does taking that to ELo seem like a good idea?

Brick: what do you think of how Elements is playing?

[Aureal]

I'm not going to scumcase myself, that's just dumb

If you're scum, sure.

Elements: how long do you think we should wait on looking at possibly bogus reasons? Does taking that to ELo seem like a good idea?

I've decided my reasoning isn't bogus and I will not comment on it

Convenient. I'm not at all sold on it and get less so all the time. Especially with you acting this way, I'm seriously considering a you and cactus team.

Like, are we supposed to take those reads above seriously? Brick's read is such a tangled mess of grammar that I have no idea what it's even saying. Pav is "I felt okay with him earlier so I'll just go with that" and a ditto for BBT. Idle's is LITERALLY BLANK. And yet I'm the one supposedly coasting and contributing nothing?

UNVOTE: while I consider.

[Aureal]

Aureal, why was elements in trouble with me?

I thought the joke was pretty obvious. You were on me about not giving all my reasoning for voting BBT. Elements is like, never giving any reasoning for votes. Therefore logically Elements should be in trouble with you.

I thought we were all on one nice little town parade messing around with each other. So having to explain the joke makes me sad.

[Aureal]

Of course you're not sold on it, you don't know what it is. Now you're considering a team of a player you apparently scum but are refusing to vote and one you've sain in your previous post you hope to is town.

I think I do. I asked you about cactus earlier, remember? And then didn't ask the obvious follow up question which BBT came up with later.

Cactus is either scum or just constantly uselessly tunneling on town and I would love to vote there. I'm going to look closer to see if I can find what makes you so certain about them first though.

Aureal is positioning herself to be able to either vote me or not depending on how the rest of the town go, I think this is very similar to how she's been playing for most of the game. Her play has been very fence sitty.

This is probably a fair assessment of how I play in general, but I find it odd applied to this game. I thought I've been more assertive than I used to be. You keep pulling the rug out from under me when I try to be, though.

I don't like how your emojis make me feel

[Aureal]

Sure is hard for people with opposite styles to trust each other, isn't it BBT? You don't understand how I can lack confidence and I don't understand how you can have so much. I've had plenty of experience with people who talk big and it's frequently been that they can't be trusted. So I'm considering whether my mistrust of you was too rooted in that fundamental mistrustfulness part of my nature. I went back and saw a comment that I'd thought was you talking about mistrust of leadership was actually not you, so the hypocrisy I was picking up was misplaced.

Wondering if that post of Idle's is going to materialize.

I'd much prefer to go after Elements over Pav. The sudden haste to look less suspicious after getting wind of people being suspicious of her isn't a great look. Also maybe bogus reasons.

[Aureal]

Are you trying to "get me"? You've expressed scumreads of me but haven't exactly pushed people to start the "yeet Pav" train. One might almost say you're tossing the idea out there to see if anybody bites, and moving on when they don't.

Yup. I was trying to get you day one, though not now. You, Idle, and Meg were my scum picks, so I'd have readily yeeted you. I'm bad at leading pushes though. I'd seen my reads matching up with what seemed like others were thinking and thought I was about to get a nice little wagon going on Idle. And when I posted about it, it melted. So I was just kind of left high and dry until you gave your preferred targets so I switched to Meg instead as that looked to be more likely to happen.

[Aureal]

inb4aurealvotesme

Sounds like a challenge.

VOTE: Elements

UNVOTE:

[Aureal]

I am home now and can dig more into things. You guys had me so distracted I walked right past my car when leaving work and I walked all the way up the block past it.

Wait a damn second. Are you saying you wanted me, thought I was scum, but waited to see who I'd be willing to vote for -- and then voted Meg when I expressed openness to that?

To shorten this down to idiot levels of comprehension for myself, in other words, you wanted to see where scum!me would vote so you could vote with me?

You were in my top three, obviously the three of you aren't all scum. And you expressed openness towards voting three targets of your own, two of which I disagreed with, so clearly I'm going to want to try to channel you towards the one I think is a good vote rather than bad? Even if you are scum that doesn't mean all the people you're

saying

you're willing to vote for are town. If I try to get something going on someone you're saying you'd be willing to vote, and you don't, at the least it's interesting info about you. *shrug* Not sure what else you think I should do here.

[Aureal]

Are we buddies yet?

Hmmmmm.

Okay, fine.

Not because of anything you've done, of course.

I'm just starting to actually feel pretty confident that the scum are both in the BBT-cactus-Elements trio. This wagon attempt on me feels very scum-motivated. I don't think this happens without both of them pushing it. BBT and cactus have both been seeing some pressure all of D2, and Elements started drawing some earlier this morning, so I'm not sure exactly what the trigger was for them to try to close the trap. But they couldn't just sit back and leave things as they were with deadline coming in 2 days and actually risk getting one of their own caught out.

[Aureal]

Okay guys, I tried to do a re-read but only made it to page 15 as I'm tired and my head is going fuzzy so it's hard to think things through as well as I'd like. I've poked around more at various things too and I didn't see too much more to convince me not to vote cactus. And I'm seeing a dichotomy here between cactus and BBT that I think should be resolved. It could be that Elements saw it too, or Elements is just being Elements still and is going to come back in the morning to chastise me for daring to vote, or vote half the people in the game and the moon.

This is e-1: VOTE: cactus

Your move, BBT? I don't know if your vote move was intended to pressure me into voting here or if somehow you've made some incredible discovery that makes me so much scummier than cactus even though you have even less reason than anyone else to think I'm scum, but you could've just waited for me to have the time to consider things more like I said I would be doing. You're going to have some 'splaining to do if somehow you don't want to lim cactus anymore.

[Aureal]

And to try to avert possible chaos while I'm at work tomorrow I'm gonna lay out some more of what I've been thinking now. If this somehow makes me seem scummier, well I guess them's the breaks but at least I got it out.

Remember when Pav called me basically a town lock on D1? Yeah, I'd realized that was pretty significant town cred a while after I posted it. If I was scum and the Charles/BBT slot was town, it'd be useful to be able to keep that suspicion on it. I expect the "Charles is lurking because scum" suspicion would linger even on a replacement, and there was no guarantee there'd even be a replacement at that point. I see very little likelihood that scum even goes looking for that info on a town Charles in the first place, let alone shares it with everyone.

Maybe I overestimated the strength of that cred a bit, but that did affect my play once Pav came out with it. I'd been hoping to take that to later in the game when numbers were fewer, and having a pretty solid town reason on someone could swing the game. I'm typically the kind of indecisive person who is pretty much always around until endgame so if that stayed un-realized for a while it could be a significant advantage. Then Pav came along and blurted it out. Which made sure scum would be aware of it too, and that didn't seem like the kind of player they'd want to take to endgame. So I promptly started to try to damage control by both making it a big deal and sweeping it under the rug. Make it a big deal in the sense that trying to claim that credit is of course going to make people less willing to give it. And sweep it under the rug in that I wanted others to keep their views under wraps. Make the scum guess how much credit everyone is giving me there.

And, realizing that I would be a good nightkill because of that cred, I also started playing up my fears of being nightkilled. Hence all the "OMG Pav is trying to get me nightkilled" stuff. I was kind of hoping scum would see that and take it as a sign that I was worried because I had a PR, and make it even more likely that I'd draw the nightkill and keep it off of real ones. Also, it was funny to contemplate the idea that I would get nightkilled. That never happens unless I have a PR. So I probably kept the joke up a bit longer than needed, but why let a good joke die? Messing with Pav is fun.

So here we get to D2, we find we don't have much left in the way of useful PR, so I still wanted to try to keep the scum guessing what they can do about me. So I've maybe been messing around a bit more than I would normally. This has also been a significant reason I've been down on BBT. Unlike the rest of you, BBT knows that I am not scumpartners with them. I've been figuring that if BBT is town they should realize I'm most likely town too. If BBT is town and thinks I'm scum, BBT must think I'm really bold or really dumb to make that post clearing the Charles suspicion off their slot. So I've been trying to gauge what they think of me. I've been figuring if they're scum they're not so concerned about the implications there, so BBT scumreading me makes me more inclined to do so in return. I'm probably a little off base with that. And there was always the chance that BBT has been playing up the suspicion of me to keep that indeterminate air around my suspicion level, like I've been thinking others have been doing. It's hard for even me to tell how much of everyone's suspicion of me is genuine and how much is played up, so if you've been playing this game with me wanting to see if we can bait out some scum after me, good job, I think it's working.

[Aureal]

inb4aurealvotesme

Sounds like a challenge.

VOTE: Elements

UNVOTE:

What was the point of this? Or have I already asked that?

What was the point of your post?

I'm surprised Elements is voting Cactus.

It's a little surprising at first, but it makes sense.

Ok I don't actually have that much more to say, except that you're still making way too much of me townlocking you. A townlock from one player, especially a player who is at the top of nobody's town list, does not actually make you town in the eyes of the rest of the town or a good target in and of itself for a scum kill. All I did was hang a lampshade on what was there for everybody else to see

Maybe I phrased that a little awkwardly. It's not what you did. You calling it out promptly just made it a lot more awkward for me. And made you significantly scummier in my book, because you did it for no reason other than being able to say "hey look, I'm participating by giving a read!" If I happen to have someone pretty well townbinned for good reasons, I'm not gonna go bringing it up when it's not relevant, or they may well get targeted by scum. I wasn't at risk of getting wagoned and it was still day 1 so having one player townbinned isn't really all that useful. I wondered if maybe you were wanting to make sure people knew about it so making a nightkill on me wouldn't seem like "oh she said she was suspicious of Pav, maybe we'd better look at him."

I've been figuring that if BBT is town they should realize I'm most likely town too.

I mean, the entire reason this game -- and I don't mean *this* game, I mean mafia generally -- works is because other players can't always tell when town is town (see d1 of most games)

Yup, but you can make some reasonable guesses sometimes. Or go down the WIFOM hole.

I actually really like 1128 and 1129, they've boosted my Aureal read up quite a bit

You so funny.

Maybe this was the attempt to divert

Maybe this was the attempt to not get prodded while we sit around waiting for the day to end.

[Aureal]

Okay. Well. Seeing that, I'm going to start off by asking Elements why she was so sure (for a time) that cactus was the mason and BBT why he was so sure that cactus wasn't. (Feel free to wait on that until Elements answers.)

Also VOTE: Elements.

[Aureal]

Idle thinking I 'outed' Pav is interesting as well. Did it read that obviously to everybody else?

Or did I just tip scum off on who to kill

No. I had Pav as next most likely after cactus, but I really don't know what you and Elements were referencing about looking at D1/D2 stuff. And you saying "it just isn't" sounded like you implying that claim, so I felt good going after cactus afterward with the confidence that one of you was scum and one mason. I actually had a nice wall in my head since the cactus flip about how the scum is totally Elements, and Pav being the mason is making me take a slight step back and re-assess, but I'm not feeling it changes too much.

[Aureal]

It's kind of crazy how being the target of a bad wagon can give you clarity, so here's things from my POV. Elements has been under the radar for pretty much the whole game. The D1 table thing got everyone talking and got her lots of participation credit, but none of that involved talking about any possible scum groups that involved Elements. I let her get away with shifting the goalposts the last time I brought that up; the point isn't that people should scumcase themselves, the point is that in a situation where Elements is scum it created an awful lot of noise about anything other than the truth. That's why even when I townread Elements on D1 (as a response to cactus's question, at that!) it was with a caveat about being nervous about that.

Also having smooth sailing on D1 was cactus. Enough people here read "aggression" as being towny that nobody was really interesting in going after cactus. The closest thing I think was probably Elements voting cactus as the Weuler wagon was quickly forming at the end of D1. No reason was given, and since I didn't want my vote on Meg anymore, didn't want on the Weuler wagon, and was curious what Elements was doing I moved mine there as well. Once the opportunity to hammer Weuler came up, Elements dropped cactus with as little explanation as she'd given for the vote in the first place. It reads now like a distancing tactic - and I started inquiring about it with Elements D2. She said she'd wanted a cactus wagon but people weren't biting, indicating that it was indeed supposed to be a serious attempt. So the obvious followup question was to ask why the change of heart on D2, but some thought gave me the answer "Elements suspects that cactus is the other mason," so obviously I didn't want to pursue that line of questioning openly and so I let it go for the time.

Meanwhile, you come into D2 gunning for cactus. Suddenly there is pressure where there was none. People are also coming after you strong. Elements waffles between whether to be on or off your wagon. Perhaps she realizes you're a potential mason and that wagon won't go through when she finally goes from "on" to "off" and starts searching for another target- me or Idle. Still no reasoning given for most any of this- the only thing I recall her saying about it was when you pushed her for some reasons and she said she'd decided scum were on your wagon.

As the end of D2 draws nearer, suddenly people start expressing frustration with the way Elements has been jumping around with no explanation. Three of us in quick succession express suspicion of her for it, when she'd been getting nothing but apparent indifference to the zany shenanigans to this point. I note that I'm seriously considering her and cactus as a team. Elements is shook- there was nothing but bad wagons D1 but the rest of us left now are so at cross-purposes and indecisive that we haven't got a lot going but your attempt at her partner and she suddenly perceives the risk of herself alternately being the quick wagon at end of day. She shifts mode, suddenly realizing she needs a credibility boost, tries to give a terrible set of 'reads' and comes at me hard, with specious arguments about me that apply much better to herself. She shifts from the position that cactus is maybe the mason to the one that cactus absolutely has to be the mason, like she's panicked in the moment and not sure how to apply the idea that they'd obviously considered about having cactus fakeclaim. She ducks my question about whether it was better to take it to ELo, as it seems to me like trying to determine which person is the real mason in ELo is not so good unless there's a nice obvious breadcrumb trail for them to point to somewhere.

After you, for whatever reason, decide to vote with the person you've said you're sure is scum, she tries to solicit Pav for a hammer on me to take the game to ELo with much confusion about who's to blame. Pav walks the knife's edge but holds firm, and Elements realizes this wagon probably isn't happening. It's time to cut bait on cactus and try to gain back some credibility, and your comment has given her enough of an opportunity to not totally lose face in reversing stance on cactus to re-start that wagon. Maybe she doesn't even expect that I'll actually vote for cactus since I've been hesitating to this point due to the mason possibility and my inability to parse WTF cactus is even thinking, though it'd be silly for her to count on that. There certainly seemed to be some attempt to manipulate how I voted with the "inb4aurealvotesme" post, which I cavalierly decided to lampshade, and she decided to try to paint my lampshading of her manipulation as something suspicious with her questioning of it.

So that's how I saw all that go down, and once I was on that line of thought even more things fall into place. The comment about us being in column C that I argued a bit on principle at the beginning of D2. The way both cactus and Elements were just so damn hard for me to wrap my head around at all, which in hindsight seems like should've been telling me something but I was trying too hard to attribute it to their playstyle. The way I repeatedly throughout the game felt like I was on the same page as Elements for a little while and gained confidence only for Elements to suddenly go chasing off in another direction. There's even the classic scumtell, if you're one for that sort of thing, of commenting about Meg's fakeclaim at the start of D2. (I am not one for using scumtells.) So yeah, actually feeling really good about this one, which is unusual.

[Aureal]

Why reverse the Mason read?

Elements was sure that Cactus was Mason, she didn't have to backtrack on it at all.

I'm not sure why that's such a sticking point for you? Elements went all-in on cactus being mason to the point of saying she'd self-hammer before going for cactus and half the game promptly told her that was crazy. Your own words made it clear you weren't going to believe it if cactus did claim and so Elements second-guesses whether this mason thing is worth tying herself so tightly to cactus. Like I said, I see a lot of panic in how Elements was acting in those posts made over the span of my workday. They're sloppy, in content and form. I don't think there was a lot of careful calculation going on, I think she got caught off-guard and was bouncing from strategy to strategy to see what she could best get to stick.

How do you think Elements was trying to manipulate your vote? Where do you think she wanted you to vote when she said 'inb4Aurealvotesme'?

I'm not sure and I don't know that Elements was either. The obvious interpretation is to discourage me from voting Elements. It's definitely at least trying to reinforce the narrative she was pushing about me going wherever I sensed a wagon.

Good job team! I was completely wrong on cactus and Pav.

I had elements down as town mason but with pav now flipping TM then I also suspect scum is amongst Aureal/Elements. I have Idle and BBT as town. My vote would be on elements not for the two votes already there.

If you think the last scum is me/Aureal and you're not voting me why not vote Aureal?

So, is this you saying you think people

should

vote me?

[Aureal]

Okay team, we've got just over 1 day left to bash it out and find scum.
I'm currently voting Cactus but I'm still up for an Aureal wagon should that become viable

Elements, you forgot this one.

Are you going to answer my question from the start of the day?

I thought the interpretation would be the same as you - to discourage you from voting Elements. But surely then, that would mean your vote would go to Cactus, no? Why would Elements want that?

Which is why I'm a little confused about it myself, but as a flippant "look Aureal's so inconsistent" post I don't know that it requires super-deep reading. There was 2.5 minutes between Idle voting Elements and Elements making that post. If Elements could tell my vote would go to cactus otherwise, there's no getting around me voting one of them and it's natural to be most defensive of yourself.

[Aureal]

That's IT? Seriously? Even I had more reason to suspect it was cactus and I wasn't super sold on it, just that it made it somewhat more likely than Pav.

And so why is it 'obvious in hindsight' that it was Pav?

[Aureal]

I think that you've dug yourself a heck of a hole with my opinion, and doing exactly what I expected you to do- go on the attack against Idle- does not help your case at this point. Maybe you want to try filling us in on what

your

thought process has been this whole time, since you've been kindly keeping us all in the dark? You're showing us now that you're capable of putting in some effort- why is it suddenly so urgent to do so now? Where was this effort when you were insisting you were absolutely sure cactus was the mason because you hadn't even bothered looking at the alternative?

[Aureal]

I don't see that being particularly true. I don't think it's clear what would have happened and it seems reasonably likely that day would have instead gone with an Idle-Aureal-Brick-Pav coalition on Elements. Moreover you hadn't given any reasoning for moving your vote to me so it's hard to consider that as a firm vote that Elements could count on.

Elements continues to play like I'd expect a scum to do here, targeting Idle and keeping her options open with me because she needs to get through two more days, so she's fishing for info about who she can best frame tomorrow. She's not telling us what she's been thinking. Like right here in 1204 she says she vote hopped to see what happened. Great, so what did that tell her?

In no world does scum!me think voting out scum!Cactus makes everyone forget I thought he was the Mason. I'm not braindead.

Okay, so in what world does a scum Aureal care enough why town Charles is a lurktroll to go looking to see if this is expected behavior rather than just being glad this slot is a really good target for miselimination?

[Aureal]

Wasn't asking you, BBT, was asking Elements.

[Aureal]

Okay you guys, you're going to have to explain how you think the day goes if Elements doesn't shift to cactus. Votes do not remain static. From my PoV it seems like shifting a likely wagon on Elements into a likely wagon on cactus instead. And there's no reason for a scum Elements to avoid doing that, and in fact decent potential gain.

[Aureal]

Elements I'm like at least 90% sure it's you, and every time you try "but what about Idle?!?" instead of addressing my points regarding you that goes up another percent.

[Aureal]

Point to what I haven't responded to and I'll respond to it

Could start with this sort of thing.

I think that you've dug yourself a heck of a hole with my opinion, and doing exactly what I expected you to do- go on the attack against Idle- does not help your case at this point.

Maybe you want to try filling us in on what

your

thought process has been this whole time, since you've been kindly keeping us all in the dark?

You're showing us now that you're capable of putting in some effort-

why is it suddenly so urgent to do so now

? Where was this effort when you were insisting you were absolutely sure cactus was the mason because you hadn't even bothered looking at the alternative?

Elements continues to play like I'd expect a scum to do here, targeting Idle and keeping her options open with me because she needs to get through two more days, so she's fishing for info about who she can best frame tomorrow.

She's not telling us what she's been thinking. Like right here in 1204 she says she vote hopped to see what happened. Great, so what did that tell her?

Okay you guys,

you're going to have to explain how you think the day goes if Elements doesn't shift to cactus.

Votes do not remain static. From my PoV it seems like shifting a likely wagon on Elements into a likely wagon on cactus instead. And there's no reason for a scum Elements to avoid doing that, and in fact decent potential gain.

[Aureal]

It told me that you were hesitant to vote Cactus despite

town

reading him which made me question your partner equity the moment Cactus flipped.

Both me and BBT have expressed interest in staying on the Aureal wagon until the day ends. If I'm partners with Cactus, he doesn't move his vote either. That means there will be three votes on Aureal until the end of the day.
To get me or voted out you'd either need the rest of you [Aureal, Idle, Brick, Pav] to vote me or BBT or Cactus to change their mind to want to vote me.

When I add my vibe checks the list looks like Idle>Cactus>Brick>Elements>BBT>Aureal

Pav is unlikely to vote me. BBT's demeanour towards me is very much one of town reading me. In this scenario Cactus is my scum partner so doesn't vote me.
So you get to [Aureal, Idle, Brick] which I think is unlikely to ever happen given who was more active in the thread.

I find it amusing that you're quoting vote priority lists that clearly put you over me as evidence in your favor. And you can't retroactively use Brick's recent quietness as evidence that for what you at that point thought he would do. He was actively posting at the time and had made it clear from the earlier post you cited that he was very willing to vote you, with you or Pav being priority and me fourth. Seeing as nobody was going for Pav, it could be quite reasonably expected that a wagon forming on you would cause him to shift his vote from Pav to you. Especially when/if he got the memo that Pav was the mason.

So, Idle is already voting you, you clearly expect me to vote you, and Brick looks quite likely to vote you given the absence of a wagon on Pav. So what about Pav? Pav isn't particularly wanting to vote you, but is even less wanting to vote me. He did just express a lot of confusion though. Maybe he can be tested out, by say, asking him to hammer me?

And that's when you realized that in an Aureal vs. Elements wagon day, you probably don't win. Time for a new plan.

In case it's not clear enough yet that you didn't think you could get that wagon on me through, here's your contemporaneous thoughts:

Okay team, we've got just over 1 day left to bash it out and find scum.
I'm currently voting Cactus but I'm

still up for an Aureal wagon should that become viable

So in short, when you now claim that you thought you could've just sat on my wagon to see that through, you are lying. You did not think that.

[Aureal]

Current thoughts on people as of right now without looking over the game at all or anything:

cactus - Town for reasons

Brickwalll - I don't think the option clashes with myself and Cactus come from scum. It made Brick stand out and now that we know my Meg pairings were wrong scum just dismissing scum reads on town doesn't seem likely. Only thoughts to the contrary is I'm surprised

IdleMuse -

Aureal - I can think of nothing memorable from this slot. Feels like it's just coasting through a slow day letting indecision build up for a potentially chaotic end of day again.

Pavowski - I vaguely remember liking him early game and I don't think he's done anything different since so I guess town lean?

BlueBloodedToffee - Similar to Pav

I'd also really like to know what you think the scum motivation behind this post is

Because Idle and I had just called you out on not giving any insight into your thoughts, obviously. Which this doesn't do much to clarify but hey, if you're just posting it so you can point to it to say "hey look I have reads after all" like you're doing here it could maybe kind of do something?

You're so tunneled Aureal it's painful

Ah yes, the "I can't refute your point so I'm going to use a buzzword at you" defense.

[Aureal]

Alright, alright, I'll look closer into Idle, but I'd also like you to elaborate on why you don't think it's Elements anymore. Please don't hammer yet, we have plenty of time to discuss things. We've got 4 town to try to poke at our arguments to make them the best we can, so let's make use of this time while we've got it.

[Aureal]

Aureal, I don't really see your case on Elements? Also, why are you dissecting what a hypothetical vote could have looked like when we have material facts to go off. Seems bizarre that you are focusing on the what if's instead of trying to work out future events?

Because trying to work out why people do the things they do is basically what this game is?

I acknowledge that from the point where Elements realized she probably wasn't winning a wagon-off with me on D2, it's not entirely clear that it's a scum move to redirect it to cactus. There could be somewhat towny reasons, but I don't think it's even particularly odd for it to be a scum move either, let alone a "no way does scum do this."

It's not even clear that directing it at cactus was exactly the intent, because what she did there was ask Pav who he wanted to vote. He said cactus. Maybe she just wanted the cover of Pav, the mason, directing what to do next. (Note how a little while ago she brought up that the Weuler wagon was directed by Meg as reason to not be able to read anything about it.) Maybe even she was hoping he'd go for Idle, whom he'd recently put at the top of his list. Does that wagon work out better than one on me? Maybe, but nobody is talking about it at that point. So trying to go "hey no, how about Idle instead" after asking Pav would obviously be awkward, particularly if it did work and Idle flips town. So I think she was a bit stuck there once Pav said cactus. Heck, maybe even she was just hoping to get enough people like Pav distracted with someone else for a while that she could go back to me at the end of the day. I've probably spent way way more effort analyzing this than she ever did- it was less than 20 minutes from "wanna hammer Aureal" to voting cactus.

So, while there are some uncertainties about what motivated Elements, I find it even more damning that Elements is not giving us her motivations, she is leaving it up to us to try to work out some more innocuous possible meanings for her. She didn't come out and say "yes I was afraid I would end up being the final wagon because the one on Aureal didn't look strong enough so I had to do something to avoid us certainly going to ELo." She flat-out denied it, claiming she could've just sat on my wagon, and left it to me to point out how her past words contradict that.

Surely it is that simple if I read the current state of play?

Are you trying to say you think the only ways things can go from here are with Idle/Elements lims in whichever order therefore why worry because it's got to be one of them? Because I don't think that's at all clear. Take out Idle today and I don't know how a BBT/Elements/Aureal final three goes. Or you instead of BBT, for that matter, unless this is your way of saying you'd vote Elements. And for that matter I've seen people say things here to try to misdirect scum about how to approach a final three situation so I don't even know that what people would say now is what happens.

You guys are trying to make me revert to my normal indecisive state.

[Aureal]

So I ctrl+F'd Cactus's ISO to find all the posts with Idle's name in them, here is what I found:

An approach a bit lacking in rigorous methodology. *sigh* Having to read cactus stuff again makes me sad.

65 - Soft defence of Idle in the form of rebutting a vote on them.
68 - Not about Idle
70 - Questioning a vote on Idle, but not really about Idle

All early game and reasonable enough in themselves. I'm not even sure why you say 68 isn't about Idle because it totally is, despite being a response to Meg.

118 - Arguing for town!Idle

As much of an opinion thing as Meg's contention that being vaguely friendly to start could mean scum.

Blah, I don't wanna respond to each thing.

I am seeing the trend of cactus being soft on Idle, sometimes for decent reasons, sometimes for reasons that are totally up to opinion, sometimes for very questionable reasons. The latter of which includes the 1083-1084 interaction where Idle tries to shoot down cactus's attack on me by noting that it would also apply to Idle as well, which is very interesting. Does a scum pair have this interaction, where one of them is going all gung-ho at a target with a bad argument and the other one butts in to say "hey but what about me, shouldn't that apply to me as well?" Particularly while the target is at E-1? Seems unlikely, if they're working in a coordinated way anyhow. Given cactus's approach I wouldn't assume there was a lot of coordination so it could yet be a case of Idle having to just sigh and try to fend for themself while cactus goes around being an unsubtle bulldog.

[Aureal]

Here's the aforementioned look through Idle's ISO:

There's a bunch of stuff there that I had previously taken issue with Idle in my previous scumreads, yes. A good bit of D1 cactus defense, but given how many people there were with the "aggression=town" attitude it's hard not to pick up on that even if you're town. I was mostly confused by cactus, particularly after the Brick/cactus scuffle, but might still have leaned town on them if pressed for a read just on the strength of others' reads.

I'm now boared of counting but there was some defence of Cactus and an attempt to distance towards the end.

This all could potentially be a partner interaction where cactus goes off chasing on their own towards the end while Idle stands there waving goodbye. But it very well could be legitimate feeling. Seems to decently track with how I felt about cactus on D2. Right up until the point where cactus started digging in on me with crazy bad faith nonsense about vanity wagons, I had pretty much put them on a back burner because I didn't understand where cactus was coming from with so many things. I dunno if being the target made it so much more obvious to me how bad the arguments cactus made were, or if cactus was really losing it there, I'll leave that up to the rest of you to ponder. I'd expect Idle to be most likely to perceive things the same way I do though, so it doesn't surprise me that they felt they needed to argue with cactus's crappy attack there.

[Aureal]

I don't remember even considered a me wagon at the end of day 2 as a possibility

This is difficult to believe. You seemed pretty keen on the idea that I was scum poised to vote you because a wagon was coming.

@Aureal, who is your number 1 town read?

Not Idle. I would have said you but you're making me nervous with the way you've handled this day. Including asking this pointless question. If you're wrong about it being Idle, D4 doesn't look to depend on what I think.

I have a long day ahead of me and didn't sleep well so I definitely won't have anything in depth coming. Not that I think I have much else to add without more feedback from the rest of you.

[Aureal]

Not even going to waste time trying to argue this only to find out BBT was fooling everyone. VOTE: Elements

If it's BBT, gj and all. That ship has sailed.

I'll have more later after work assuming this doesn't finish things.

[Aureal]

See, didn't we just save ourselves a lot of trouble there? That vote getting BBT was never happening.

This is why we don't ignore scum slips.

[Aureal]

You were never going to vote BBT?

With how sure everyone was about him? I like consensus and even as ornery as I am, I don't see myself bucking what everyone thought based on just what seems like the paranoia argument.

What was the scum slip?

See my 828

[Aureal]

Thanks!

I actually didn't want to push Cactus all the way to elim. Elements reversing her Mason read on Cactus put me in a difficult position.

Yeah I was suspicious when you voted me there, with the person you were suuuuuure was scum. Fortunately for you, Elements is so scummy I didn't press you to find out why. And since I thought you were the mason it was a clear you vs. cactus there, and I didn't think you would kill the actual mason to show that it wasn't you after all.

Still don't know why it was so clear it was Pav. The only thing Elements quoted that seemed odd was the asking for an unvote on Meg.

[Aureal]

It was a combination of things to be honest. The first thing was actually this post;

I am shocked and sad, and also shocked and also sad

Then I ISO'd Pav, saw no votes for Meg and saw the post asking for an unvote.

ISO'd Meg and it became clear it was Pav.

I mean, it's easy for YOU to figure out who the mason is. The other two candidates were the scum! That post doesn't sound like anything but Pav being Pav to me. Anyone can say whatever they want after they've seen there's masons, it doesn't make them a mason.

Ironically, Pav did say he'd be willing to vote for Meg, and that was what made me turn my sights from Idle to Meg. And then we even talked about that later, how I was hoping to get him to join me on that wagon! And I still didn't pick it up.

I didn't realise you thought I was Mason, what with you saying I scum slipped and all

I didn't at that point, it wasn't until your "it just isn't" cactus post that sounded like you were claiming it yourself. I didn't start trying to figure out who it could be for a while, probably when I started wondering why Elements was claiming to have wanted a cactus wagon at the end of D1 then didn't anymore. It obviously wasn't those of us on the Meg wagon. And Meg's first post seemed like a possible breadcrumb, so I put cactus as somewhat more likely than the other two.

In all seriousness though, I thought your meta reading of Charles was super townie and I thought it would have bought you more town cred than it did. Which is why I tried to dismiss it immediately.

Which in turn made me more suspicious of you because you shouldn't! *shakes fist at Pav again for bringing it up so early*

[Aureal]

No, it's a good example of why you should if it's an impossibility that you're going to come to the correct answer. I was not gonna spend another dozen hours trying to argue that it was Elements only to find out BBT was just smiling and nodding and waiting for the inevitable the whole time.

We could've still been in D3 discussing things with 4 town, but people decided it wasn't worth talking anymore even though I asked for us to use that time to scrutinize things better. Nobody felt like engaging with my argument that it was Elements, or flipping her so that if I was wrong I'd have a fresh slate to work with, so of course nothing about my position changed. I was obviously going to be in the final three and going for Elements so the fact that people voted to end D3 the way they did made it clear they figured it was me if not Idle. It was inevitable at that point.

Anyway, thanks for the great job modding, Alianna! And the mod points!