Newbie 689 - Game Over - Town Wins

[Hoopla]

Well, to start this off, seeing as how I don'trecognize anyone's names, who are the ICs in this game?

MafiaSSK and VisMaior I believe.

And I'll add a friendly incentive for Waffles to get his ass here.

vote: Waffles17

[Hoopla]

Hi meteor, how are you?

@ idea: Using two words, are you scum?

[Hoopla]

(by scum, you mean mafia?) -- not scum

i don't understand the significance of "two words"

Yes, I mean mafia.

Two words are better than one.

[Hoopla]

oh key

and i suppose it's only polite to ask you the same question in return -- are you scum?

I'm not.

buuuuut, it's likely one if not both have already graced their presence in this thread. Who seems scummiest so far?

Tax and waffles, where are you guys!

[Hoopla]

Sorry, this is my first game Icing.

Is your wiki up to date? It says your playstyle is to lurk. How do you think this is good town behaviour?

@ Waffles - hi, welcome to the game. Any thoughts so far?

[Hoopla]

I like the question mark at the end there Waffles. It's as if you're still open to the idea.

MafiaSSK, you seem reluctant to offer anything substancial. I know it's early days, but your posts seem very closed.

VisMaior, you're the other IC here. Do you consider yourself a good scumhunter?

[Hoopla]

Understandable. Although, actively searching for scum, or trying to confirm your innocence always seemed like an adequate ploy - particularly if most of the town tried to play this way.

It would minimize mafia potentially lurking and not feeling pressured. So, because it's a gamestyle that doesn't help the town, you've earned my vote for now.

Unvote
Vote: MafiaSSK

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, would you mind rewording that? I think I get what you're trying to say, but the way it was worded was kinda confusing.

Okay sure.

The main points I was trying to get across was that staying closed, and not trying to freely engage in discussion or mafia hunting isn't good for the town. The quieter people are, the easier it makes it for mafia to hide.

I guess I'm just asking for more activity so mafia don't get a free ride. I know it's early, but people must have some feelings, no matter how small they may be.

[Hoopla]

We don't really have any major leads just yet. I think it will take a while, but I'm still in favour of voting and eventually lynching someone less active, if nobody is standing out.

VisMaior - Is this generally the sort of pace most newbie games operate at?

[Hoopla]

Welcome back meteor. TAX, may I enquire why you unvoted me? I certainly don't mind, but it just seems unusual that you'll remove a random vote, and then not place a new one on someone else.

I understand random votes, but random unvotes without voting again. Seems suspicious to me - trying to avoid some conflict? Trying to avoid ties with other players?

[Hoopla]

I didn't find a reason for me to have a vote right now

So, why did you make a vote for VisMaior now then?

[Hoopla]

This is cute, it's like you're doing everything I say.

Vote for yourself now?

[Hoopla]

idea, you seem to be actively staking out this forum. While you're online, you might as well jump in too! Any thoughts or 'ideas' on TAX's voting?

Despite the curious voting, I'm still getting town vibes.

[Hoopla]

Most seem quite neutral to me at the moment - the few reads I've generated can be interpreted both ways. I think my suspicions still lie with the IC's, mainly due to their lack of presence or input in the game so far. Maybe it's just me being petty and biased, singling out the quiet folk though.

[Hoopla]

Excpet you don't find anything that scummy during the RVS. I'm also not lurking in this game as I am an IC.

Bandwagoning is horrible! Never do it.

Why exactly are you opposed to bandwagoning if you don't think anything scummy happens during the RVS?

I assume you still believe we're in the RVS stage then?

I don't advocate senseless bandwagons either, but I still think it's interesting seeing who is open to them, and the reaction of the person being unnecessarily bandwagoned.

[Hoopla]

With the proportion of new users to experienced here, I feel like a lot of suspicion we may build on someone may come down to townie inexperience, rather than being scum. I think we need to be careful not to lynch based on mistakes, because there's been a lot already. Having said that, it's highly likely that 1 if not 2 of the mafia pair are newbies. So a little pressure and questioning could open up some cracks.

Waffles and TAX are on my maybe list.

[Hoopla]

VisMaior has been awfully quiet. I'm not sure if it's deliberate.

Vis - Are you finding it too early to be suspicious of anyone?

[Hoopla]

Not a lot, but i've read through many games, and think I'll pick up the process quickly. I'm just lacking game experience.

[Hoopla]

get your ass here, please!

unvote
vote: VisMaior

[Hoopla]

I'm personally looking at Waffles too. I'll abstain from voting for him at the moment as his input has been quite limited.

[Hoopla]

And at L-1 you definitely should!

unvote
vote: Waffles

show us wat ya got baby!

[Hoopla]

Guys, chill. Nobody is going to hammer him. And if they were, then they'd have needed a damn good reason - and would still look scummy, meaning we have a good day 2 lynch candidate (unless Waffles actually was scum and we were right).

However suspicious it may have seemed for me to do that, we weren't risking anything.

[Hoopla]

i've been doing lots of reading, which hopefully is of some help -- so, from what i've read -

it's usually best if town are truthful and cooperate, whereas it's in scum's interest to cause confusion and sow paranoia
if someone isn't helping then they are likely to be hindering

a quick vote on Day 1 is usually considered bad (especially in the first week)
this is because Day 1 posts become more useful later on in the the game
(eg it's possible to look for patterns in voting behaviour)
so scum have an interest in getting Day 1 over as quickly as possible

lurking and not contributing are generally seem as scummy
it's a way of scum hiding out so they're less likely to say stuff that may be used against them later

but town are probably more likely to make silly mistakes when posting
(because scum are more paranoid about being caught, so take more care with their posts)

corrections and contributions on this from ICs are welcome
 

This game has been going for 11 days now, I personally feel this is adequate time for a day 1 lynch. I certainly agree with idea - it's in the town's best interest if we're as active as we can be and cooperate, so we have data to check back on later.

If we stay quiet, it gives mafia a far simpler task of blending in. Posting more often means mafia have to do so as well, which can lead to slips or at least put them under more pressure. This is why I still feel Waffles is an adequate candidate for a day 1 lynch. By the little content he has offered, I don't feel he has justified his innocence - something I believe town should be trying to do as best they can.

He hasn't claimed his innocence after being put up at (L-1). I don't know if he's just an unsure townie, but either way he's a decent bet at the moment.

If not, I'm happy to change my vote if someone can supply a better case on someone else.

[Hoopla]

There is no such thing as too much content.

Yes there is. If a day goes on for dozens and dozens of pages, genuine information relevant to lynches becomes lost in the mess. Day 1 data becomes relevant further into the game, and having a 3 week+ day one is unnecessarily when much information comes from lynches.

I agree we can't be too hasty and zero in on a lynch too early - and I feel we may not be there yet in this game. But a point does come where the game subsides if a lynch isn't selected.

I don't understand why yourself and MafiaSSK are so reluctant to input into the game though. Is this how you usually play? I was under the impression that you guys should be setting the examples of how to scum hunt and keep the game moving. Unless of course you're showing us how to play as mafia.

My impressions at this stage of the game are still skewed; I'm getting town feelings about over9000 and idea, and Waffles due to lack of content/compliance, along with the IC's are in my possible scum list.

At the moment I'm still satisfied with my vote on Waffles, but I'd like to hear thoughts from the IC's about who they are suspicious of at this point of the game.

[Hoopla]

if Wafffles is vanilla town and gets lynched, then it should encourage lurkers to post more on Day 2

Also, idea, my "hardly" referred to his roleclaim post. Other than that, you're right, I don't think he has made any content posts.
As far as actually lynching him...
Best case scenario: He's scum and is lying about his roleclaim.
Worst case scenario: He's a townie who hasn't helped at all in this entire game.

These are all very valid reasons for a Waffles lynch. For those opposed, I'd like to ask: What use does Waffles actually have in the game?

One answer I can think of is that he is a number for the town (presuming he is town) - but will he really be helpful in an endgame scenario if he already is borderline suspicious, with nothing helping his innocence and limited activity?

The only other answer is if we feel someone else is more suspicious. At the moment Waffles is 50/50 with me, and unless any player can trump this, Waffles

is

the best choice for the town.

Even if we do have a situation where we feel others may be just as scummy as Waffles - he still is the best lynch, due to the fact that we give the town a better 'leave' of players for later in the game. A leave of players who have contributed highly and have actively been considering game options are the people

I

want in the town.

For a day 1 choice, as town, we're in a good position. We don't have anyone claiming power roles, and we have a lot of data to analyse later in the game, and depending on the role we uncover today we'll have good day 2 leads.

[Hoopla]

Wow, great result for the town. I can't really see the mafia failing to take up a kill on the first night, so I'm going to presume our doctor made a successful save. Losing Waffles as a townie sucks from a numbers perspective, but I think we can be pretty satisfied with our position.

I have a series of questions I'd like to ask, which I hope everyone will answer.

1) Did you see LightWolf's hammer vote suspicious at all?
2) Do you think Waffles was a convenient lynch for the mafia?
3) Did you find it suspicious makemeameteor had a vote on nobody at day end?
4) Do you think the IC's lack of contribution is intentional?
5) Who do you think is scum?

And also, I'd like additional thoughts on these last two killings from the IC's. What do you both make of it all?

[Hoopla]

I'm happy to answer them all.

1) Did you see LightWolf's hammer vote suspicious at all?

No, not really.

2) Do you think Waffles was a convenient lynch for the mafia?

A little. I'm confident one player who voted Waffles was mafia.

3) Did you find it suspicious makemeameteor had a vote on nobody at day end?

No.

4) Do you think the IC's lack of contribution is intentional?

No, but we might as well have played with 9 newbies.

5) Who do you think is scum?

I think MafiaSSK is scum.

No Kill N1 was probably because the newbies weren't able to choose a player to kill.

@VisMaior - is that true? newbie scum usually aren't able to chose a player to night kill?

Sounds like rubbish to me.

[Hoopla]

Or a doctor saved someone...

One last question for everyone:

IF you were mafia, who would you have attempted to kill last night?

[Hoopla]

You mean: Not killing make me paranoid as well. I'm thinking they did not want kill someone?

And that would never work with that logic, but I agree the scum is planing a kill that will confuse us for sure. Let's add to your idea:

TownieA accuses TownieB, but is accused by TownieC, while TownieD is with TownieA, but TownieE thinks TownieC is right. At the night TownieA gets killed. We could think TownieC+E are scum, but that would be to easy so we suspect TownieD who did think TownieA was right, but the scum maybe knows we would think that why. We never know if scum makes himself look scum by the kill or someone other.

This is a useless hypothetical dripping with WIFOM.

only maf knows for sure if it was a doc save or not

And the doctor presuming there is one.

Well Hoopla please answer this question yourself first

Why exactly are you reluctant to answer?

[Hoopla]

I'm going to wait until others have answered first before I reveal my thoughts, I don't want to influence them. Thanks for answering LightWolf.

[Hoopla]

This, coupled with his refusal to answer his own questions (Perhaps waiting so he knows how to answer while seeming the most pro-town), have made me increasingly concerned about him.

FOS Hoopla

Still looking at over9000 and LW.

I've answered all my questions, except the last one, in which case I would have targetted you.

I'd still like to hear from _over9000 and VisMaior about their thoughts.

[Hoopla]

mod:

possible prod on MafiaSSK. It's been ~72 hours since his last post here despite posting in several of his other games in this time.

We need him to be here before we go any further.

[Hoopla]

Sorry. Was lurking on purpose this time. I just wanted to see how you scumhunted with littler IC help.

You're saying your help on day 1 was much more signifigant?

I don't buy it.

[Hoopla]

On the opening few pages you were quite active, but this was more random votes and answering general mafia questions, rather than anything game-based. You appear very non-commital and reluctant to express much opinion once the game began. VisMaior has posted a PBPA which has made up for absences somewhat, I'd like one from you too please.

I've read through two of your other games - one as mafia and one as town. You self-hammered as town, gave up as mafia. Looking on your wiki, almost all your games repeat this pattern. Howcome you havent improved? More importantly, how the hell are you an IC? (No offense)

[Hoopla]

This is a small game, it doesn't take that much effort. I'm sure MafiaSSK will be a sport and put some sort of substancial post together for us.

[Hoopla]

vote: MafiaSSK

[Hoopla]

Of course.

I'll tell everyone right after MafiaSSK contributes something worthwhile.

[Hoopla]

We're not in danger of a lynch, plus I'm online regularly. I have excellent reasons for voting for MafiaSSK. At the moment though it's an incentive to get him to actually play the game.

[Hoopla]

You're being ridiculous idea. I only ask for one post of contribution from him before I show you my reasons. Would you hammer him without giving him a chance to defend himself?

[Hoopla]

Would you like a Player By Player analysis,Page By Page Analysis, or post by post analysis of a certain player?

I want something that will show your thoughts and tell us who you think is guilty or innocent. Whether it be by focusing on a couple of players, or giving us an overview of play so far.

There is nothing left to do when the game dies.

This would probably happen in any game with 4+ players who lurk unnecessarily. Why are you setting this example?

[Hoopla]

It's a shame that someone has to directly ask you a question or suspect you for you to participate. Is mafia actually fun for you at all? I think your 'new' strategies is just a load of rubbish so you can get away with lurking.

I don't like how you tell us things are scummy, or certain things are tells when you provide nothing to explain why you think that way. I am looking forward to this pbpa.

On a side-note, this is the first time I've started becoming suspicious of idea.

[Hoopla]

I was getting a town read on you. Not everyone here is scum.

[Hoopla]

so you want a PPA of a person only, read my post by one person only. I dont believe in 1 person PBPA as often that misses mportant context.

Also, could everyone explain why they are not voting either TAX or over? Do you see any flakes in my theory or what?

Ideally I wanted opinions on everyone from MafiaSSK, but I know that's just wishful thinking.

TAX and over9000 I have mild suspicions on, with TAX being slightly scummier. I have higher priorities at the moment though, and either of them could be a valid day 3 lynch.

[Hoopla]

Kay. I'll work on a Post By Post Analysis of you.

[Hoopla]

You're right idea, I doubt MafiaSSK is going to post any content I wanted. So I'll reveal my reason for voting now.

I am the cop, and I have a guilty verdict on MafiaSSK.

I've reread all of day one, and tried to force information out of him on day two to link him to a scum partner, and at the moment MMAM is my prime suspect.

[Hoopla]

Not yet, I have a few things I want to ask a few people before we lynch MafiaSSK.

While we're waiting for others to come online; idea, who do you think MafiaSSK's scumbuddy would be, judging from his play so far?

[Hoopla]

It's this distancing and attitude of 'well I was against him all along, I can't be scum!' that makes me think you're buddies. If you've been so anti-MafiaSSK why hasn't he got your vote today?

This post really makes me think you're his buddy;

So that's two FOS' and two votes on MafiaSSK, and it seems like those who aren't one of those four are still really suspicious of him. It feels like we've started to reach a consensus. Obviously we don't want to rush a lynch, but I really feel confident about this. If we all agree, I'll vote for him.

This is isn't my main reason for MMAM though.

[Hoopla]

I have a lot more thoughts on the game at the moment that the town needs to hear. So in the mean time (while I sleep), I'm going to remove my vote just to keep MafiaSSK out of danger from a lynch.

I'll check back in tomorrow morning - no lynching yet please.

unvote

[Hoopla]

VisMaior, over9000 and LightWolf: Can you tell me who your top two suspects are at the moment to be SSK's buddy?

[Hoopla]

Whoa! Hold up!


I'm only on right now for a minute or two, so I've only read up to Hoopla's cop claim. He's lying. I'm the cop. I checked LightWolf overnight and got an innocent verdict.

Neat, you're couterclaiming. Before I reveal the consequences of what you've done, can I enquire why you thought counterclaiming me on cop was a good idea scum?

[Hoopla]

Because I wanted to know if you knew the consequences. Because I've just broken the game for the town. I'm writing up a post now to explain what has happened.

[Hoopla]

Here's the story. Last night I didn't investigate MafiaSSK, I actually investigated makemeameteor who I got a guilty verdict on.

I thought up a clever play where I had a decent chance of outing both members of the mafia, but it meant I did have to lie to the town. MafiaSSK was my second choice for scum, so I pretended I got a guilty on him in the hope he'd counterclaim me as cop which then I'd reveal I actually had a guilty on makemeameteor.

Now, in the case where MafiaSSK wasn't scum I knew this would be a very attractive chance for the real scum to make a counterclaim, because they would know I was lying about my results. In the process I have now uncovered _over9000 counterclaiming me.

There were a few more possible scenarios that could have happened, but this was the gist of my plan. The beauty of it is, even if you don't believe me and you decide to lynch me, when I turn up cop you'll then realize _over9000 is lying, and my original guilty verdict on makemeameteor must be true.

Does anyone have any questions?

[Hoopla]

I don't remember my exact reasons now, but there were one or two opportunistic posts I saw him make. He wasn't overly active, and for the times was he was I wasn't getting a town vibe. I can reread and find the things that led to my investigation if you wish though.

[Hoopla]

Right, lets get this show on the road and finish the game.

vote: makemeameteor

[Hoopla]

That's fine. I'm cool with a lynch of either makemeameteor, over9000 or me.

So if you guys choose to lynch me and I turn up cop, makemeameteor and over9000 are your scum pair. Thanks everyone!

[Hoopla]

It'll be a nice bonus if makemeameteor is the mafia roleblocker (presuming there is a doctor) that way I can confirm _over9000 isn't a townie claiming cop for some reason.

Other than that if I die overnight, lynch over9000.

[Hoopla]

He is already at L-1, idea can hammer now.

[Hoopla]

I guess this means you have to keep me alive tonight over9000?

[Hoopla]

over9000 claimed cop because he knew I was lying (initially) about my verdict which meant it would have made a cop claim by a mafia member more believable, if MafiaSSK was lynched. Because it would have meant I would have been lynched next day, and mafia would have had night 2 and 3 to make kills. It was a good move by over9000, but he didn't take into account my little lie.

[Hoopla]

everyone's been stampeded into a rush lynch

isn't that bad for town ??????????????????????????????

I have a guilty on MMAM, and he confessed. That's plenty for a lynch.

For tomorrow, you've got two people claiming cop. There is your choice of lynch. Sorted.

[Hoopla]

Interesting kill choice by over9000. Props to idea for making a save on the first night though. As cop I investigated over9000 for this night just to confirm he is the final mafia member, which he is.

vote: over9000

[Hoopla]

I meant MMAM was the first (who I got a guilty on), so over9000 is the final mafia member. It's just a wording thing really.

[Hoopla]

Why wouldn't there be a day four?

[Hoopla]

You know we've killed MMAM right, who was mafia? There are only two...

[Hoopla]

Why on earth have you counterclaimed then? That makes no sense...

vote over9000

It wasn't that bad of a play by over9000. The reason I lied about my investigation was to try and catch out MafiaSSK

if

he were scum. If he counterclaimed me, then I'd have caught both of them. If he didn't it would have been a couple of townie points for him.

As far as over9000 goes it wasn't a bad idea to claim cop. There were 8 people left in the game - he knew I was lying about my results (and at this stage both mafia members were unconfirmed). If he claimed cop and said he got an innocent, the smart town play would be to lynch the player we have a guilty on (MafiaSSK). Then when MafiaSSK would have flipped town, I would have been lynched the next day for lying. The mafia get night 2 and 3 to make kills and then win on day 4, with 4 alive. It wasn't a stupid play by over9000.

Good game though everyone, I had fun. Out of curiousity, who did idea save on night 1? Or did mafia just fail to make a kill?

[Hoopla]

If he was thinking I wasn't the cop or was lying as the cop, claiming would add further credibility to him and he could orchestrate a lynch however he wished, particularly the next day. I understand what you're saying though. It would have been a lot safer staying low and hoping I'd be lynched for lying the next day.

Although, if I didn't get a cop counterclaim, I would have come clean before MafiaSSK was lynched and told the town what I was trying to do. But that would have made it a completely different game.

[Hoopla]

Thanks for modding Arafax, I appreciate it a lot! Well done to the town, and especially idea for saving me night 1!

Arafax, how did you think we played as town? I felt like we were kind of going around in circles, the IC's infrequent activity didn't help, but overall no replacements needed - that must be rare. The lynch of Waffles didn't help heaps, but I don't think town or mafia really cared either way on that one.

Idea did a really good job for the town, I barely had anything to suspect you of all game, you were very astute. Lightwolf, I think a lot of your posts were garbled and nonsensicle, I'm glad I didn't waste an investigation on you.

I think the mafia team played well, and probably could have survived if I didn't investigate MMAM on night one. Overall though, good game everyone, I look forward to playing with you all again!

[Hoopla]

But if no other cop came forward, and I told you what I was doing I think I could have got away with it. It was lying for a purpose, and the town could have understood that.

[Hoopla]

The worst case scenario would have been lynching me as cop, then when you realize I was a cop after all, you'd see what I was trying to do and would lynch MMAM (my first guilty verdict) the next day, leaving the town with 4 players, 1 scum on day four.

[Hoopla]

I wouldn't have let MafiaSSK get lynched if he didn't counterclaim me.