Newbie 689 - Game Over - Town Wins

[idea]

glad to see the game has started -- thought i'd better post something now cos i probably won't be around for a while (it's a sleep thing) -- look forward to seeing some posts from the ICs when i get back

[idea]

Cool, cool. I guess to start things off I'll

Vote: idea

since he's had none.

that makes sense, as a way of trying to get me to post something more substantial

if i have an idea, then i expect you to unvote...

@ idea: Using two words, are you scum?

(by scum, you mean mafia?) -- not scum

i don't understand the significance of "two words"

random vote idea

Your turn

VM, are you the other IV?

i guess as "random vote" is in bold, it counts as a vote?

isn't random voting a scum tactic? a way of voting without giving a reason?

[idea]

EBWOP -- VM are you the other IC?

[idea]

random voting is usual early game tactic to spark discussion.

thanks for info -- is this early game tactic used more by townies than scum?

[idea]

hi LightWolf,

EBWOP means Edit By Way Of Post
it's used to correct a mistake in a previous post

(there's an abbreviations page in the wiki which i'm finding helpful)

[idea]

Two words are better than one.

oh key

and i suppose it's only polite to ask you the same question in return -- are you scum?

[idea]

it's likely one if not both have already graced their presence in this thread. Who seems scummiest so far?

MafiaSSK has been really helpful answering questions (thanks for that)
but he hasn't asked any, or otherwise contributed

i don't know...
maybe it's usual for ICs not to contribute at the start of the game?

[idea]

The only person who really stands out to me right now is LightWolf, only reason being that he gave a "random" vote disguised as a real vote.

err... do you mean a real vote disguised as a "random" vote?

Also, how do you specify who you are quoting?

i just click on the "Quote" button top right of the post i'm quoting so the contents of the quote tag are (eg) quote="_over9000"

[idea]

Also, how do you specify who you are quoting?

i'm using preview, to check what my post looks like before submitting
looks like your follow-up post needed /quote (not quote) as the last tag?

[idea]

an incentive for TAX to post something -

vote: TAX

[idea]

hi TAX, as you're now here...

unvote: TAX

Shouldn't we start working out a strategy.

that sounds good -- what do you suggest?

[idea]

if you're going to be gone for longer than 48 hours (not counting weekends), let us know. I will replace severely inactive players...

Arafax

-- how about a prod or a replacement for makemeameteor? (only post Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:09 pm)

...nothing to do with him voting on me of course

We should just vote off the most annoying.... jk......?

well how about people who choose names which mess up the quotes tag?

also players without an avatar, cos it's harder to find their earlier posts
(comment? TAX, over9000, meteor)

also extreme animations, which make it more difficult to read posts
(tho not VisMaior's avatar, which is ok for me)

The quieter people are, the easier it makes it for mafia to hide.

it makes sense to me, but that's probably my inexperience
(i read up some discussion of the "random vote stage" and it can last 72 hours or more)
it's how both ICs are playing it

Well if it is set up one, three, or four...

TAX, thanks for that

can you suggest a strategy for the 5, 6 or 7 townies who are not power roles?

[idea]

EBWOP ...nothing to do with meteor voting on me of course

(apology for gender assumption)

[idea]

Hoopla, my main thought on Tax's posts is to do with his experience rather than his voting

TAX's post 51 suggests a mass claim by townies
(this was alarming enough to delurk VisMaior, so i guess it's not a good thing to do)
maybe an understandable mistake in a newbie game?

TAX's post 59 is very strong about a quick lynching always being bad for town
this indicates some experience of playing mafia

TAX, have you played in a game before where there's been a mass claim? if so, was it successful?

[idea]

ok... this is only the second time i've played
and some of my questions are just to find out more about how it goes

[idea]

LightWulf, is this your first game of Mafia?

[idea]

Waffles, do you think LightWolf is scum? if so, what are your reasons?

[idea]

as this is a newbie game, it gives scum an excuse for causing confusion
and if they make a mistake, they can say it's becuase they are new to the game
so far we have -

LightWolf - 1st game
idea - 2nd game
TAX - 5th game

maybe it'd be helpful to town to know if there's any others here who are (fairly) new to mafia?

[idea]

Idea, the mafia would just lie and say this is there first game. So if they get caught doing something suspicious they will blame it on that.

yes, of course Mafia might lie -- that's why i suggested it
the more lies scum tell, the more likely they'll be caught out

[idea]

@Idea I don't think that they will get caught on that one.

TAX, it wasn't just to catch scum, it was also to help me decide who's town

if scum claim to be experienced, they can't use the excuse of inexperience
if scum claim to be inexperienced, it's harder for them to use clever tactics
anything which limits scum's ability to confuse with future posts is surely good for town?

in my limited experience, lynching is often the result of small inconsistencies building up over time

the replies given so far have been interesting and useful
they've shed a different light on a couple of earlier posts

Hoopla, Waffles, do you have much experience of playing mafia either in real life or online?

[idea]

who do you suspect?

vote: =[Waffles17]=

only 2 posting sessions in nearly 6 days
no contributions (3 fluff posts + 1 bandwagoning)
knowing whether Waffles is town or scum would help with my suspicions of others

sorry Waffles, but right now i think you're more useful dead than alive

[idea]

...Nobody is going to hammer [Waffles]...they'd have needed a damn good reason...

how about -

not contributing - 4 fluff posts + 1 bandwagoning vote + 1 OMGUS vote
lurking / unreliable net access - 3 posting sessions in 9 days
bandwagoning - doesn't unvote after being told by IC that bandwagoning is bad
suspicious timing - 3 days of non-posting, then appears 2 hours after L-1 vote
ignoring questions - no clear answer re previous mafia experience
ignoring advice - no response to suggestions that L-2 is the time to claim

Waffles is not contributing -- if he contributes then i'll consider unvoting him
otherwise regardless of whether he's town or scum, he's adding to the confusion
the more confusion there is, the harder it is to find scum

however, i'm probably the most inexperienced player in the game...
so if both ICs agree that there's likely to be more useful info to come from Day 1, then i'll unvote for now

[idea]

LightWolf, probably not important, but to clear up any confusion -

Well this is my first FORUM mafia, I played few real life ones, and have been playing for a while on Epicmafia(A chat mafia)

my total experience of mafia other than this game is 3 Days in an all newbie game
this was on another discussion board with limited posting facilities (eg no quotes, no BBCode etc)

And those are the things when looking for scum that I should look for?

i've been doing lots of reading, which hopefully is of some help -- so, from what i've read -

it's usually best if town are truthful and cooperate, whereas it's in scum's interest to cause confusion and sow paranoia
if someone isn't helping then they are likely to be hindering

a quick vote on Day 1 is usually considered bad (especially in the first week)
this is because Day 1 posts become more useful later on in the the game
(eg it's possible to look for patterns in voting behaviour)
so scum have an interest in getting Day 1 over as quickly as possible

lurking and not contributing are generally seem as scummy
it's a way of scum hiding out so they're less likely to say stuff that may be used against them later

but town are probably more likely to make silly mistakes when posting
(because scum are more paranoid about being caught, so take more care with their posts)

corrections and contributions on this from ICs are welcome
 

[idea]

 
the other game i played had deadlines so Days were much shorter (less than a week)
also it was an open game, so the setup was known

from what i've read, often very little is found out on Day 1 (or even on Day 2)
but later in the game, Day 1 and Day 2 posts can be important

i try and work out who's posting stuff that is most helpful to town
tho of course it doesn't mean they necessarily

are

town
but it helps

on EpicMafia I usually flip a coin

but of course you only do that on mafiascum in the random vote stage
 

[idea]

 

So we should discuss things a little before we lynch Waffles right?

i've already voted, so at least for now it's not up to me to decide whether Waffles is lynched
before anyone hammers Waffles then i think they should first explain why they want Day 1 to end, and then wait for replies

I have a question about being cleared, like when Waffles bandwagoned on me and he turns out to be scum, will I be cleared as mafia had no chance to speak privatly with each other so a such strategy is impossible to set up or is it common to vote for your partner to make him look clean?

if

Waffles is lynched and

if

Waffles is scum, then i think that makes it less likely you are scum
Waffles voting on you (Post 1.76) doesn't make sense to me if you are both scum

but scum will vote on another scum if it helps scum to win
everyone is under suspicion -- scum can be very clever

players often get lynched because their posts and their playing style is scummy
Waffles's posts and playing style is scummy -- he may be scum; he may be town...
 

[idea]

 

I ask that we don't hammer Waffle just yet

TAX, if you don't want Waffles to be lynched, then unvote
 

[idea]

 

the mod needs to prod Waffles and vismaior.

@ TAX - out of curiosity, why didn't you ask mod to prod Meteor?
(seeing as he was the one who hadn't posted for longest)

We've basically stagnated for the past few days

@ Meteor - could one of the reasons be that it's nearly 5 days since you last posted?

My vote is on Hoopla, but I will switch my vote if you guys feel this is the best thing to do.

@ Meteor - can you tell us why you think Waffles is more useful to town than Hoopla?

Treat this game as a commitment; if you're going to be gone for longer than 48 hours (not counting weekends), let us know

2 days is hardly prodworthy.

@ VisMaior - nearly 2 weeks into the game, you've only posted content 3 times (posts 52, 122, 155)
speaking as an IC, would you say that everyone else (excepting Waffles) is posting too much content?

unvote: =[Waffles17]=

FOS Meteor, VisMaior
 

[idea]

There is no such thing as too much content.

speaking as one who perhaps posts excessively, i guess it's quality rather than quantity which is important

I'm tempted to hammer [Waffles] but I'll wait for VM's opnions.

Ill have to reread.

have you any advice for MafiaSSK yet, about whether he should vote on Waffles?
 

[idea]

I haven't posted because there's nothing to offer?

@ Meteor -- ok, so you've no thoughts at all on -

- TAX saying he'll only vote if he's really suspicious, and still voting Waffles when he's only 50:50 (posts 65, 169)
- MafiaSSK voting and then almost straight away unvoting Waffles (posts 84 & 95)
- VisMaior's vote on MafiaSSK re end of RVS stage (post 122)
- MafiaSSK saying that VisMaior's vote on MafiaSSK was lame (post 128)
- VisMaior's FOS on TAX for agreeing (post 139)
- MafiaSSK praising over9000 for saying he found Waffles not claiming strange (post 149)
- LightWolf asking whether there should be a discussion before lynching Waffles (post 164)
- TAX saying that all town would suffer mass paranoia if Waffles was lynched and was town (post 169)
- TAX not asking for you to be prodded (post 172)
- VisMaior only making 3 content posts in nearly 2 weeks

and your main suspects are Hoopla and over9000, even tho they've not been FOS'd or voted on by either of the ICs
and though your suspicions of Hoopla seem to be based on just one post (post 142)
and your suspicions of over900 seem also to be based on just one post (post 178)
and you didn't feel a need to say anything for four and a half days while people discussed lynching Waffles

... just trying to get it clear in my head

[idea]

idea, honestly, your badgering of me is starting to feel like a scum partner trying to distract the town from lynching his partner.

your earlier posts were quite sensible, but this one i don't understand

i provided an extensive list of reasons why Waffles should be lynched
i FOs'd him, was second vote on him, and kept him at L-1 for four days
i'd suggest that of all the people in the game i've been the one pushing hardest for him to be lynched

the only reason i unvoted was to give both VisMaior and MafiaSSK a chance to vote on him

Most of the events you mentioned I found so utterly insignificant

so FOS and votes from ICs are utterly insignificant? hmm...

I mean, go ahead and vote for me since I know you want to.

now you've got me completely baffled -- i'd no intention of voting on you
i was just trying to clear stuff up that i didn't understand
i mean aren't we supposed to be on the same side? cooperating? answering questions? sharing thoughts?
(this is my first game on mafiascum too)

but i've read that if someone invites you to vote on them, then you should [IC's - is that right?], so -

vote: makemeameteor

[idea]

In addition, my main two suspects are

not

Waffles and over9000, they are

Hoopla

and Waffles

EBWOP (apologies for the confusion) (post 183, line 12)

...and your main suspect is Hoopla even tho he's not been FOS'd or voted on by either of the ICs

Did every newbie comment on every FOS or vote from an IC?

maybe not, but i'm sure they had

thoughts

on them, which is what i was asking you about in my post 183
and you're probably the 3rd most experienced player in the game
and of the 10 queries i raised, you've not answered one
instead you dismissed them as mostly "utterly insignificant" and describe me listing them as "comical"

all i'm doing is asking you for your thoughts on stuff that's been happening in the thread
and your response is to suggest that i'm scum and invite me to vote on you

possibly a slight overreaction? maybe even a hint of paranoia?

[idea]

And I don't understand why you continue to hammer away at the fact that my vote is on Hoopla...

it was just an EBWOP (to acknowledge that i'd made a mistake and to correct my previous posting)

But if you so desperately want me to go through each item you listed...

i know it's not something you feel a need to do, but supposing (eg) you get killed off at Night...
then the rest of the town can go through all your previous posts knowing that's what you're really thinking
so thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts -- who knows, one day, they might provide the killer clue

- MafiaSSK praising over9000 for saying he found Waffles not claiming strange (post 149)

I didn't find anything in what over9000 said particularly praise worthy.

i think Waffles ignoring repeated requests that he should claim needs an explanation
it doesn't seem like it's his first game ("this is one of my first mafia games aswell" - whatever that means)
maybe it's the first time he's been scum, and he panicked?
i thought Hoopla's post (post 140) was mainly the result of frustration at Waffles not contributing

I was simply irritated because it felt like you were targeting me for simply not posting.

well yes, i was -- isn't that the usual thing players get lynched for on Day 1?
if posting once or twice a week is the norm here then i'm off looking for a forum where people post more regularly or get lynched

[idea]

You seem to relie on the ICs too much.

ok, i'll try not to rely on them too much in the future

TAX has made quiet a few scummy posts, a bit of distancing with his "do not quicklynch" stuff

So let me get this straight, because I don't want to have a quick lynch that makes me seem scummy?

@TAX - if you don't want a quick lynch, why didn't you unvote when Waffles was L-1?

[idea]

@over9000 - if TAX wanted Waffles lynched why did he ask people not to vote on him?

[idea]

Okay, now I see what you're saying.

@over9000 - ok

...it takes only 1 slip

yes, tho in a newbie game i'd have thought it often happens that town posts look suspicious
which is why on Days 1 and 2 maybe it's better to vote on people who are not contributing?
otherwise it's too easy for scum to lurk and wait for paranoid town to lynch each other?

I said I didn't want a quick lynch way before that post. The reason why I didn't want someone to hammer waffles is I wanted him to reveal his role...

@TAX - you asked people not to vote on wafffles, but you didn't unvote yourself
that way if waffles is lynched and is town you can say you asked people not to vote
and if waffles is lynched and is scum you can say that you helped lynch him

so either you want waffles lynched, in which case you're happy to leave him at L-1 and wait for others to vote on him
or you don't want waffles lynched just yet, in which case you unvote (with your explanation) so that he's at L-2

i'm just trying to help by suggesting why VisMaior may have thought your posts scummy
it's not me you have to convince, at least for now

... directed at everybody... how is a Vanilla Townie with unrelialble internet, who has made hardly and content posts in this entire 13 day game, helpful to the town in any way whatsoever?

"hardly [any] content posts"? -- i wasn't aware Waffles had made

any

content posts

if Wafffles is vanilla town and gets lynched, then it should encourage lurkers to post more on Day 2
this would make TAX feel terrible, and he thinks it would make townies feel paranoid
it wouldn't make me feel terrible, and i think it would make lurkers/scum feel paranoid

[idea]

Also, idea, my "hardly" referred to his roleclaim post

yeah, you're right... at least we can now assume waffles isn't a townie with a power role
(and what an effort it took to extract that bit of info from him)

...it's better to get scum lynched than someone currently useless to the town lynched.

unfortunately we don't know who scum are -- and as it's Day 1, we're not likely to find out

but we know who's not contributing
and we know that not contributing is usually regarded as scummy cos it's helpful to scum
and we know that scum would prefer town to lynch a contributing town than a useless town

lynching someone on Day 1 of a newbie game because of a couple of suspicious posts seems risky to me

will [waffles be] really be helpful in an endgame scenario... ?

given his voting behaviour so far, he's more likely to lynch a townie regardless of whether he's town or scum

your just assuming some far fetched plan.

@TAX - you missed my point -- i'm not assuming anything

you asked why VisMaior thought your distancing yourself from a quick lynch was scummy
i've given you a possible reason why VisMaior could have thought that

you might have the best reason in the world for doing what you did
but your post 169 looked scummy -- which doesn't mean that you're scum
but it does mean that, like the rest of us, you're not always aware of how your posts look to other people

[idea]

MafiaSSK is suspicous because... he found me not claiming strange

i also found you not claiming strange -- why didn't you claim?

[idea]

[quote="=[Waffles17]="why didn't you claim?

Sorry I wasnt sure what to do being only my second game I havnt had to do
it before.

if a townie is in danger of being lynched then it helps town to know their role
if they're vanilla town then scum already know that -- so there's no reason to hide it from town
if they have a power role, then they need to declare it so town don't lynch a power role

Wafles, it's now over a week since MafiaSSK and Hoopla asked you to claim (posts 138, 140, 146)
but you still have a vote on Hoopla because he asked you to claim (post 144)
and you're still saying MafiaSSK is suspicious because he asked you to claim (post 222)

[idea]

EBWOP - if they're vanilla town, then scum already know they're town -- so there's no reason to hide it from other townies

[idea]

What have the past few days taught us?

the virtue of patience?

i thought we were waiting to see what MafiaSSK will do when he returns later today?
(he was waiting for VisMaior's opinion before deciding whether to vote)

[idea]

I have a series of questions I'd like to ask, which I hope everyone will answer.

i see... so you're asking all these leading questions without answering them yourself? hmm...

how about i answer your questions one at a time?
and when you've answered one of your questions, i'll answer another, and so on?

1) Did you see LightWolf's hammer vote suspicious at all?

no

No Kill N1 was probably because the newbies weren't able to choose a player to kill.

@VisMaior - is that true? newbie scum usually aren't able to chose a player to night kill?

[idea]

2) Do you think Waffles was a convenient lynch for the mafia?

i don't know what you mean by "convenient" -- do you mean as opposed to inconvenient?
it helped mafia most cos it's one less town
but it also helped town cos Waffles wasn't contributing -- town can't win unless townies contribute
IMHO if non-contributors (like Waffles) vote at all, they're as likely to vote with scum as with town
not contributing is a scum tactic -- i've no objection to more non-contributors being lynched
lynching non-contributors means we either lynch scum, or force scum into posting
the more posts scum make, the more likely they are to be caught out

if town win, all townies win -- if a townie gets lynched, it's a sacrifice -- no big deal
vanilla townies about to be lynched shouldn't waste time pleading innocence and making OMGUS votes
its an opportunity to leave a legacy of thoughts and suspicions to help town win
these may not be accurate, but at least town will know they're honest opinions
better to be lynched than scum killed at night -- at least it gives a last chance to help town

BUT, I don't think it was a doc save. Not killing would make the town in such a paranoid state...

@LW - are you saying scum

not

killing a townie makes you paranoid?
and you would you feel

less

paranoid if scum had killed a townie? hmm...

paranoia is a scum sign -- townies have nothing to be paranoid about

idea could you speak where you would rank me and why?

@LW - i'm suspicious of everybody, especially people who don't post

i think you and over9000 accusing each other for much of Day 1 makes both of you look a bit scummy
please both of you, let it drop for Day 2... you can always take it up again later

i don't think who voted on Waffles is important
Waffles was scummy -- more interesting is who

didn't

vote on Waffles

A week without claiming a tL1 and being told specifically by an IC that you should claim because its standard procedure and not doing it is bull.

Waffles was damn scummy nothing else to it

@Mafia -- given you're right, why do you think VM didn't vote on Waffles?

[idea]

3) Did you find it suspicious makemeameteor had a vote on nobody at day end?

@Hoopla - not in itself -- it fitted in with his general low key style of play in Day 1 (not posting a lot)
tho to be fair, meteor has posted more than VM

IF you were mafia, who would you have attempted to kill last night?

?? it would depend on who my mafia partner was

@LW,TAX - your paranoid posts about Night 1 make no sense to me
the most obvious explanation is that we have a Doc who protected the scum's target
i've never known scum

not

attempt a night kill -- but this is my first game here
(i've had a look at some completed newbie games in The Road to Rome, and not found anything)
so i'm waiting to see what VisMaior says about it
until then i don't see any point in discussing other possible explanations
and right now i don't see what difference it makes anyway

both ICs being scum would be a bit strange

not really -- it's exactly the same chance as any other 2 people being scum

the scum is planing a kill...

?? scum aren't planning a kill -- they can only plan at Night
right now it's Day -- town are planning a lynch

[idea]

4) Do you think the IC's lack of contribution is intentional?

i'm not sure what you mean by "intentional"... some thoughts...

a post on another mafia board described mafiascum.net as "slow"
so if VM and MafiaSSK are deliberately posting less than they usually do, they might not think it so obvious

if both ICs are town, then they'll be suspicious of the other at first, and play cautiously
however by Day 2 they'll possibly start probing, and by Day 3 may be complementing each others questions etc
it's likely scum would attempt to kill one of them in Night 1

if one IC is scum and the other IC is town, then the cautious play will probably continue much longer
again, the town IC makes a tempting target for a Night 1 kill

if both ICs are scum, then they'll probably keep a fairly low profile during Day 1
but after Day 1 they're likely to be more active, tho they'll make sure they're not seen to be acting as a pair
they'll be gently seeding paranoia and confusion, and being very patient
if one of them comes under strong suspicion, the other will no doubt lead or join in a lynch attack on him

as ICS, they're almost certainly keeping a close eye on things
(unless they declare they're going to be VLA)
they have their pride... they don't want to come back to a newbie game after 24 hours only to find they've been unexpectedly lynched

[idea]

could you answer Hooplas question?

i don't understand Hoopla's question -- the way it is phrased it makes no sense
perhaps he is asking which kill is best for scum?
if so, then it is a bad question -- it is not in town's interest to advise scum who they should kill

[idea]

@Lightwolf - all the quotes attributed to me in your post 274 are wrong

you are missing a 'close quotes' tag [/quote] -- every 'opening' quotes tag needs a 'closing' quotes tag
when quoting, i use the

Preview

button before posting -- it is to the left of the Submit button

[idea]

@LW if you look you will see that you did

not

quote meteor's post
you

misquoted

meteor's post

[idea]

[idea]

PBPA coming up...

@VM - a PBPA for the whole game is a lot to take in -- isn't it usual to focus on just one suspect?

There can be a lot of blaber, but lot of talk enhances the chances of scum slipping.

@VM, MafiaSSK - so why have both ICs between them only posted 3 times since p237, the start of D2?

This game is friggin fast.

i checked D1 posts in The Road to Rome for the 3 games most recently posted to, and the last 3 finished games -
the number of posts per day in D1 varied from 5 to 23 -- the average (mean) was 11
the number of posts per day in D1 of this game was 10.5

[idea]

he number of posts per day in D1 of this game was 10.5

Thats excellent! Friggin fast! You guys are really good

on behalf of all the non-ICs, thanks for the compliment
but i checked 6 games and it's less than average

lurking is rarely a scumtell.

whether or not lurking is a scumtell, it's an acceptable reason for being voted on - see Arafax's first post -

I will replace severely inactive players, but your fellow players may choose to lynch you themselves first.

even more relevant for ICs is the MafiaWiki, which i'm sure you're well aware of
but in case others haven't seen it, this is the relevant section on lurking -

Being a good IC

* Don't lurk:

Lurking kills newbie games. There are only 7-9 players in the game as is, so there are a decreased number of people posting in the game to begin with. Do not subtract from that number. Make an effort to post in the game, and post regularly. As an IC you are at least partially responsible for the flow of the game, because very often the other players in the game will not understand why more discussion is a good thing. You want to lead by example. Secondly, you want to

give the newbies a good first experience. GAMES WHERE NO ONE IS POSTING ARE NOT FUN. Give them a fun game. Give yourself a fun game. Don't lurk.

Newbies get paralyzed all the time, trying to sort out what happens next. When ICs lurk, it provides an example that this is 'how it's done" on this site, which hurts every game they will be in in the future until/unless they learn otherwise.

-Mr. Flay

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC

excluding defence & metagame posts, and asking people to restate things etc, MafiaSSK's contribution so far is -

p83 - votes Waffles for bandwagonning
p138,146 - asks Waffles to claim
p166 - FOS Waffles
p231 - votes Waffles for not claiming
p238 - suspects LightWolf

excluding defence & metagame posts, and asking people to restate things etc, VM's contribution is -

p52 - suggests TAX thinks again about having a mass claim
p122 - votes MafiaSSK without a clear reason
p155 - FOS TAX for "agree" post
p197 - votes TAX for scummy posts etc -- suspects over9000 because of bad logic
p267 - PBPA of whole game -- votes over9000, suspects TAX (and meteor)
p291 - scumtell discussion responding to over9000

that's 1 significant contribution each every 4 days -- and even those have usually been in response to pressure to post

i'm sure VM and MafiaSSK are good ICs -- so there's a reason why they're lurking
practically every game i've seen starts with posts asking or warning people not to lurk
if scum are allowed to lurk they have nothing to lose by lurking and everything to gain
the less times scum post, the less chance there is of scum making mistakes
and the more chance there is of us paranoid newbie townies becoming suspicious of each other

FOS MafiaSSK
FOS VisMaior

[idea]

There is reasoning that needs logic, and then there is scumtell, wich is empirical evidence...

@VM - thanks for making clear that useful distinction

[idea]

PBPA = Post By Post Analysis

[idea]

EBWOP - whoops, apologies -- actually i'm wrong - PBPA= point by pont analysis"

the mafiascum.net page has "PBPA: Point By Point Analysis: a detailed analysis of (usually one player's) posts."
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... reviations

the Simms99 forum has "PBPA: Point By Point Analysis: a detailed analysis of (usually one player's) posts in an effort to prove a case for or against them."
http://www.sims99.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19732

some people think it's worth doing -- others are not so sure -- doing a PBPA for the whole game is unusal and seems a bit excessive

[idea]

while it's quiet, maybe it's a good time to clarify how roles were assigned -

What I meant for both ICs being scum has a really low chance, as this game is here for us to learn, both ICs being maf would be unfair for town

@LW - Arafax's first post of the game states clearly that

all

roles were assigned randomly -

One of these [setups] was chosen totally at random, as were all role assignments.

[idea]

I'll tell everyone right after MafiaSSK contributes something worthwhile.

@Hoopla - and what happens if MafiaSSK doesn't contribute, and someone else gets lynched while you're away, and you get Night killed?
then we never get to know why you voted on MafiaSSK

also this is a scum tactic.... voting on someone saying the reason will be given later (and then disappearing until after they've been lynched)

[idea]

We're not in danger of a lynch, plus I'm online regularly. I have excellent reasons for voting for MafiaSSK. At the moment though it's an incentive to get him to actually play the game.

no -- if MafiaSSK is town, then we are very close to a lynching
both LW and myself have a FOS on MafiaSSK and are obviously considering voting on him
after which it only needs one scum vote and MafiaSSK to self-hammer (as he's done before when town)

again, saying you have excellent reasons for voting MafiaSSK and not giving them may seem ok to you, but it looks scummy to others
(the first thing i was told when playing Mafia was not to trust anyone, and not even myself in closed games)

i'm not asking that you give your reasons for voting, only pointing out that saying reasons will be given later is usually seen as scummy
i'm not sure whether VM will pick up on it or not -- if so i expect meteor will agree with him

[idea]

so in case there's an unexpectedly quick lynching, let me unload the following -

there's a commonly expressed view which goes along the lines of "we're here to lynch scum, not lurkers"
IMHO we're

not

here to lynch scum, we're here to play Mafia -- if people don't post then nothing happens
townies who don't post because they can't think of anything to say are missing the point of the game
townies who lurk without good reason are more worried about surviving than about town winning, so they're scummy
i'd rather play with scum who act like town, than with town who act like scum

another thing that i regard as anti-town is players who don't have avatars
it makes it much harder to find their earlier posts

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is my general overview -

metaganing... we have 2 ICs whose style is not to post much
MafiaSSK is a self-declared lurker, and VisMaior gets prods in other games too
it's Mafia's 1st game as IC (and VM's 2nd game as IC?)

TAX looks like he changed strategy (during N1?) and is now posting very little
(it's 4 days since his last post)

Hoopla is asking lots of questions, which makes others suspicious of him

Meteor is keeping a very low profile, apart from occasionally making an agree post

over9000 and LightWolf started squabbling in the RVS and continued throughout D1 and into D2
(this makes both of them look scummy, but as it's a newbie game maybe they're just both paranoid townies)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

here's a post count (excluding posts consisting only of out of game stuff, EBWOP, or requests to prod) -

LightWolf - 30+
meteor - 24
idea - 30+
TAX - 30+
Hoopla - 30+
over9000 - 30+
MafiaSSK - 19 (V/LA for 5 days)
VisMaior - 13

[idea]

Would you hammer him without giving him a chance to defend himself?

probably, though i'd give my reasons first (and allow you time to give yours)

And if you were considering voting me you would have already.

or to put it another way if i'd already voted you i would no longer be considering it

this is the first time I've started becoming suspicious of idea.

apart from Waffles and Arafax, shouldn't you be suspicious of everyone?

[idea]

hopefully you'll also get a town read on me any other games we play in

[idea]

the MafiaWiki page "Being a good IC" has 6 sections -- it was last edited by Mr Flay, List Moderator for The Road to Rome
the 1st section is headed: "Never flake/be replaced:"
the 2nd section is headed: "Don't lurk"
the 3rd section is headed: "Treat the game like a normal game"
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... _a_good_IC

Sorry. Was lurking on purpose this time.

"Lurking kills newbie games." (from the MafiaWiki page)

I just wanted to see how you scumhunted with littler IC help.

"Do not... play any differently in terms of your objectives as you would in any other game." (from the MafiaWiki page)

@MafiaSSK - have you read the MafiaWiki page on "Being a good IC"?

[idea]

over9000 and LightWolf started squabbling in the RVS and continued throughout D1 and into D2...

While yes we were doing that D1, but tell how did we do that D2?

@LW - mostly in posts 282-286 -- but it looks like you eventually came to an understanding of sorts

Also, could everyone explain why they are not voting either TAX or over?

@VM - scummy posts and bad logic are to be expected in a newbie game
maybe it's enough for a FOS, but i don't think it's enough for you to be "90% sure" (p267)
also i don't think TAX and over9000 are scum partners

I'm also not lurking in this game as I am an IC.

Was lurking on purpose this time.

this is inconsistent

[idea]

a PBPA from MafiaSSK would be interesting to see
but the problem with PBPAs, especially large whole game PBPAs, is that it's easy to sneak stuff in which misleads town -

95 by mafiaSSK "bandwagonning is good" ->this seems like the opposite of what you said before... +1 scum

MafiaSSK didn't say or imply that -

I assume you still believe we're in the RVS stage then?

Bandwagoning gets us out of the RVS.

I don't believe we're in the RVS stage any longer.

@ MafiaSSK - why didn't you challenge VM misquoting you? distancing?

171 by over -> "TAX plese dont backpedal" +1 scumpoints for both

over9000 didn't say or imply that -

some time earlier TAX and over9000 had voted on Waffles
there was a discussion going on between everyone except VM and meteor as to whether Waffles should be hammered sooner or later
these were TAX's and over9000's first posts about it -- there was nothing to backpedal about

...I ask that we don't hammer Waffle...

TAX, I realize that you don't want to lynch a townie, but we don't have anthing else as a group to go on...

maybe when using quotes marks ("...") it's best to Copy and Paste rather than attempt to paraphrase?
otherwise town might think the quote is being made up to support the argument

[idea]

I'm also not lurking in this game as I am an IC.

Was lurking on purpose this time.

this is inconsistent

Decided to change my strategy.

presumably now you've read the WikiMafia on how to be a good IC you're changing it again?
changing your strategy is confusing to town -- perhaps you should have told us first?

Idea, I didn't challenge it to see if you noticed it.

VM misquoted you and gave you a scumpoint in a his PBPA (267)
and you thought it was in town's best interest that you didn't say anything about it for nearly a week?
and this was just to see if i would notice it? i'm flattered

is this something else you left to see if i'd notice? -

...Wafles, it's now over a week since MafiaSSK and Hoopla asked you to claim...

...A week without claiming a tL1 and being told specifically by an IC that you should claim because its standard procedure and not doing it is bull.

Unvote, vote Waffles

Waffles had

not

gone a week at L-1 without claiming - Waffles had only been at L-1 for 4.75 days
not only did you misread my post, but you didn't check to see whether what you thought i'd said was true
maybe it wouldn't have affected your decision, but it's skimming -- and skimming is scummy, especially when giving reasons for a vote

[idea]

I also think it's odd that over, one of the most active on Day One, has suddenly become much less quiet.

Over is not really that inactive, I think you over thinking it.

over9K's last post was 286, which was more than 5 days ago

[idea]

@over -- ok, that's cool by me -- hopefully no-one will put MafiaSSK at L-2 before you get back
and then we can be sure of hearing your thoughts on all the stuff that's been going on since you last contributed (post 286)

[idea]

So that's two FOS' and two votes on MafiaSSK.

i make it 4 FOSs (LW, meteor, idea, VM) and 2 votes (Hoopla, TAX)

i still think that we're close to a possible rush lynching
assuming MafiaSSK is scum (which of course he might not be, regardless of how suspicious he looks) -
one scum vote + one more town vote + a self-hammer will see Mafia lynched
(i'm assuming Mafia will self-hammer to end D2 so as protect his scum partner)

i don't want to have a quick lynching without hearing over9K's thoughts on it

also we've now been waiting over 3 days to hear for Hoopla's reasons for being the first to vote on MafiaSSK
since then MafiaSSK has posted 18 times
MafiaSSK is unlikely to come up with the content that Hoopla is waiting for

@ Hoopla - does this mean we don't get to know why you voted on Mafia until after he's been lynched?

before voting on anyone i want the chance to try and work out who their scum partner might be
there's a few unanswered questions around which could easily be forgotten once we get into D3

if there's no evidence that a suspect has a scum partner, then i'm less likely to vote on them

@VM as you're voting on over9K and have just FOS'd MafiaSSK, does that mean you think they're scum partners?

[idea]

 
great! we have a cop!! and even better, we have an an investigation turning up scum! yea!

tho...i guess there could be a counterclaim, but whoever counterclaimed would need a good reason as to why they've not been more active

@Hoopla - do you want to tell us why you think MafiaSSK and meteor are aligned

[idea]

idea, who do you think MafiaSSK's scumbuddy would be, judging from his play so far?

VisMaior or meteor are my main suspects for MafiaSSK's scumbuddy
i've questions for both of them -- and i need to recheck my suspicions re alignments

if anyone votes on MafiaSSK before you're happy it's time to lynch, then they'll be the obvious lynch candidate for D3

PS i still think voting without giving a reason (except in RVS or where there's an undisputed claim) is scummy

Hoopla, I wish you would have revealed you are cop...

?? he did! do you mean you wish he

hadn't

revealed himself as a cop? - this is the opposite of what you said - not the best of tactics

[idea]

know [Hoopla] have a higher probability of getting NKed.

no -- surely you mean the opposite?

"No Kill N1 was probably because the newbies weren't able to choose a player to kill"

if MafiaSSK is scum, then it's almost certain he said that to try and confuse town
"probably" means more often than not -- that means more than 50% of the time
i've now checked N1 for the last half dozen completed games (677, 646, 647, 658, 642, 644) -- they

all

had a NK or an attempted NK

which means it was very likely there was an attempted NK, in which case the target was protected, in which case there's a doc
in which case the doc can protect Hoopla -- so Hoopla likely has a

better

chance of surviving N2

[idea]

having said which, if my post 382 is right, then we have setup 1 and there's a mafia roleblocker
and if my post 382 isn't right, then we have setup 4 and there's no doc

so either way it's possible Hoopla could be NKed - hmmm.. maybe you're not wrong TAX

@Hoopla - it's probably a good idea to make sure you give us all your thoughts before the end of D2, just in case the unthinkable happens

[idea]

Know I have a question, do you believe Hoopla or not? And if so why haven't you voted MSSK?

i've already answered these questions (see my posts 370, 373, 375, 376 & 384), but np -- here's fuller answers -

i believe Hoopla until and unless there is a counterclaim, in which case it will depend on who puts up the better case for being the cop
(i've seen games where players more townie than Hoopla have turned out to be scum)

i haven't voted on MSSK because -

1) that'd put him at L-2, and this would leave the possibility of a scum vote + self-hammer to end D2 before Hoopla & over9K reveals their thoughts

2) there are

two

scum and i'm looking for a pair of suspects, and i'm not prepared to vote on anyone without some evidence they have a scum partner

3) i have questions i want to ask VM and meteor while we still have some time left in D2 -- they don't post very often, and one of them might get NKed

we're cross-posting right now -- will answer your posts 385-388 in a while after you've acknowledged this one - ok?

[idea]

I'm going to remove my vote just to keep MafiaSSK out of danger from a lynch

phew! thanks Hoopla -- i was having kittens there for a moment

[idea]

@TAX - MSSK is probably safe from being lynched for now -- tho IMO he'd be even safer if you unvoted as well
i'm wary of asking, giving or following people's advice about voting and unvoting
however in this case if you unvoted, i'd feel happier and wouldn't think it suspicious
(but i can't speak for anyone else -- eg VM might find you asking whether you should unvote a bit suspicious, especially if you're still on his scum list)

[idea]

@meteor - you voted on Hoopla in D1 (142), and D2 you FOS'd him (263) and said you found him suspicious (334)
then Hoopla claims cop and instead of being suspicious, you accept it without question
you not only accepted that Hoopla was cop, you even voted the way you thought he wanted you to vote (391)
why?

the fact that MSSK's posts are scummy doesn't make him 100% scum
Waffles post were scummy, and Hoopla led the charge on Waffles, and he turned out to be town
now Hoopla's leading a charge on MafiaSSK...

if i had a FOS on Hoopla and he claimed, i'd be suspicious and be asking questions about his claim and his role
accepting Hoopla's claim without question looks scummy cos only scum know for certain whether Hoopla's claim is true

of course, it doesn't mean that you're 100% scum, but it does look suspicious
therefore i ask myself, what would a useful town do now in your position?
well, given that you've voted on MafiaSSK, how about presenting some analysis of who MSSK's scum partner might be?
then if you get lynched or NKed, you've at least done what you can to help town win
and if town win, then you win

just my 2 cents...

[idea]

I believe Hoopla is the cop because why else would he claim as cop? If MafiaSSK turns up town, Hoopla would obviously be lynched on Day 3. I do not believe scum would basically commit suicide like this. It's honestly as cut and dry as that. Perhaps it's naive of me.

a good point, but as you said, perhaps naive...

eg presuming MSSK and Hooppla are both scum, and they have reason to think there's no cop (maybe cos of what happened in N1) then sacrificing MSSK would be a good way for Hoopla to distance himself and be above suspicion for the rest of the game -- he could always say he'd investigated xxx and found them to be town, which would incresase his credibility still further with the townie who'd been 'investigated'

or let's assume there's a 'real' cop and that MSSK thought he'd been investigated in N1 cos of something the real cop posted in D2 -- wouldn't the best course of action be to get in a false claim before the real cop claimed?

now these are just a couple of possibilitioes... there may be others... and no, i'm not saying they're the most likely, and no, i don't think this is how it is --

but

i'm not the one who voted and FOS'd Hoopla -- if i'd thought Hoopla was scum, i'd have at least asked him why he'd investigated MSSK -- at the end of D1 you didn't have any reason for thinking MSSK suspicious -- so why did Hoopla?

[idea]

apologies for the length of this post -- one of the problems with whole game PBPAs is that they take a lot of answering
so scum sometimes use them cos they rely on town not having enough time or being too busy to go through them in detail

I didnt misquote anybody. The stuff between quotation marks arent paraphrasing, they are more my reading on things.

quotation marks ("...") are the standard way of representing a direct quote
in your post 267 you're sometimes using them for that purpose and sometimes not -- this is confusing

looking in more detail at the use of quotation marks in your PBPA post 267 -

What about all the good things I suggested town before that moment of lapse in my judgment. No one was suggesting them so why would I suggest them, if I was mafia would I just sit back and let no one suggest them so it would be easier for me.

91 by TAX: "ok I did scummy things, but what about the no scummy things I did?"

there's a difference between TAX admitting to a "moment of lapse" in judgement and him admitting to doing "scummy things"
one is singular; the other is plural - this makes TAX looks like he's incriminating himself

95 by mafiaSSK "bandwagonning is good"

I may have misjudged that sentence, but saying "bandwagonning gets us out of RVS" seems to me to be an argument FOR bandwagonning, instead of against it.

MSSK says "Bandwagoning is horrible!" (83)
Hoopla asks MafiaSSK "Why exactly are you opposed to bandwagoning" (89)
MSSK says "Bandwagoning gets us out of the RVS" (95)
and your reading on this is that MSSK thinks bandwagoning is good? (267) it doesn't seem to be the most obvious interpretation

171 by over -> "TAX plese dont backpedal" +1 scumpoints for both. I read this as the more experienced scum guiding the less experienced scum to go along . +1 SP

this is not what TAX said or implied (covered in my post 357)

I should have answered this question by LightWolf. "I have a question about being cleared..." ...
179 by idea: "speaking as one who perhaps posts excessively..." ...
182 by hoopla: "If a day goes on for dozens and dozens of pages..." ...
196 by over: "who casts a vote toward the lynchee..." ...
200 by over: "I also find it a bit strange that you choose my one weak reason..." ...
204 by over: "I'm not even the one being targeted..." ...
245 by LightWolf: "Wait a second! He is an IC..."
249 by TAX: " I'm thinking they did not want to NK someone..." ...
250 by hoopla: "IF you were mafia..." ...
253 by Hoopla: "This is a useless hypothetical..." ...
254 by LW: "And while yes it's WIFOM..." ...
258 by LW: "What you say means we accept..." ...
259 by ideas: "a post on another mafia board..."

these are all direct quotes

you see the problem?
the 3 oldest posts using quotation marks are the ones least likely to be remembered
and these are the 3 posts where you have used quotation marks for your "reading on things"
and for all 3, your "reading on things" is open to criticism
and there's no way of telling the difference between what people posted and your interpretation of what they posted
in the context of giving reasons for voting on someone, this surely can't be right

(sorry to have gone on at length about this, but it does seem to be a case of 'putting words into people's mouths')

another thing about your post 267 i don't understand is your argument on meteor -

MMM answers that point by point +1 towniepoints...
214 by MMM: good reasoning...
Hooplas questions: ...
3) Did you find it suspicious makemeameteor had a vote on nobody at day end?
No...

Scummy list:

1. over
2. TAX
3. mmm

as your scummy list was based on your PBPA, why is meteor on your scummy list?

and then there's the the conclusion of post 267 -

Im 90% sure over and TAX are our mafia.
I propose to lynch one, and if he turns up scum, lymch the other. If he turns up town, and this is very important, still lynch the other too.

90% is near certainty and needs stronger evidence than scummy posts and bad logic (which presumably are fairly common in newbie games?)
and the only evidence of alignment given is a blatant misquote
if town had followed your proposals, then i think town would have lost

PS

I dont find [Hoopla] "Saying that hell reason later" overly scummy.

if over9K or TAX had voted on you saying they'd give their reasons later i'm pretty sure you'd have said it was scummy

[idea]

(EBWOP)

rereading the following i think i misunderstood your explanation in post 391

MSSK says "Bandwagoning is horrible!" (83)
Hoopla asks MafiaSSK "Why exactly are you opposed to bandwagoning" (89)
MSSK says "Bandwagoning gets us out of the RVS" (95)
and your reading on this is that MSSK thinks bandwagoning is good? (267) it doesn't seem to be the most obvious interpretation

are you saying the stuff in quotes in your post 267 about Mafia's post 95 is in fact what

you

think, and not your understanding of what Mafia thinks?

[idea]

I don't think anyone has been more anti-MafiaSSK than I.

are you sure?
before MSSK voted on you (345), HOOPLA and VM had both voted on MSSK, and LW and myself had both FOS'd him
whereas your total anti-Mafia content in 4 weeks of posting was basically agreeing with Hoopla's post 298 -

Sorry. Was lurking on purpose this time. I just wanted to see how you scumhunted with littler IC help.

You're saying your help on day 1 was much more signifigant?
I don't buy it.

Agreed.

How come?

Because it just seems too easy to say "Oh, I'm going to let you guys figure out what to do" particularly when your help as an IC on Day One wasn't particularly helpful. Your statement today felt more like scum being pressured into posting before the heat really turned on them instead of keeping with a strategy of lying low.

and shortly after that you were actually defending MSSK -

I do think MafiaSSK is just treading the waters to see how to best be an IC, but it could always be a scum tactic. I would also like to see his PBPA.

This seems like you're trying to slide onto an easy wagon.

Unvote, vote MMAM

Excuse me? I actually defended you there. But okay!

[idea]

 
attacking Mafia four weeks into the game, when he's already well on his way to being lynched, is not evidence that no one has been more anti-MafiaSSK then yourself

[idea]

[MafiaSSK] was not "well on his way to being lynched" until Hoopla revealed his guilty result.

WHAT?????? when Hoopla claimed MSSK had 2 votes on him (Hoopla and TAX) and 4 FOS's (LightWolf, VM, yours and mine)

this post is from you

before

Hoopla claimed -

It feels like we've started to reach a consensus. Obviously we don't want to rush a lynch, but I really feel confident about this. If we all agree, I'll vote for him.

If you still feel I'm his scum partner, I welcome Hoopla's investigation tonight. The result will be innocent.

that doesn't make sense -- we're not looking for town -- we're looking for scum
if you're innocent, then Hoopla should be investigating someone else

@Hoopla - while on the subject of your claim, maybe it's now ok to answer the last question you asked a while ago

One last question for everyone:

IF you were mafia, who would you have attempted to kill last night?

i'd have attemped to kill whichever IC wasn't my scum partner

[idea]

@over9K, Hoopla - what were the reaons for your choice of who to investigate N1

@over9K - who are your 2 scum suspects?

[idea]

@ Hoopla - why did you investigate meteor N1 ?

[idea]

I can reread and find the things that led to my investigation if you wish though.

yes please, if you have the time, i'd be interested to know

also if you are correct in your assumptions, then presumably MafiaSSK is town?
in which case if over9K is scum, what does he gain by claiming doc?
surely it is to his advantage to keep quiet and and allow MSSK to be lynched and then NK you N2?

PS it really

is

a bit scummy lying to town no matter how good the reason

[idea]

I want to know what people think of my speculation in post 386.

@TAX - this is the answer i was waiting to post, after you'd acknowledged my last reply to you

I just thought of something, what if we have the setup were there is only doc. The doc saved the person the were going to kill D1. The mafia now knows there is no cop, so one of them can safely say there cop with no one counter claim. They can say a town is scum, town believes it they kill the innocent town. End of game. I know this is far fetched this is why I didn't unvote.

"if we have the setup were there is only doc."
ok
"The doc saved the person the were going to kill D1."
ok
"The mafia now knows there is no cop"
how? all they

know

is that there's a doc

[idea]

EBWOP

in which case if over9K is scum, what does he gain by claiming cop?

[idea]

MMAM just admited he was mafia. So hoopla is cop.

why did MMAM out himself? so we'd think Hoopla is cop?
if over9K was cop then it's best he counterclaimed as soon as possible
if over9K is scum, then what possible reason could he have for counterclaiming?
if MMAM says he's scum, then i guess he's scum
but i need to think about the rest of it.... i'm rather confused....
(i'm still waiting for answers to my questions to over9K and Hoopla)

ok, come in VM and MafiaSSK -- help sort it all out

[idea]

everyone's been stampeded into a rush lynch

isn't that bad for town ??????????????????????????????

[idea]

The IC's we have are crap.

the ICs we have are still alive

[idea]

bad luck mafia

well done town

my thoughts -

i thought Hoopla played well in D1
but ib D2, the way he asked his questions means scum should have known he was cop
then claiming and then lying to town gave scum an excellent chance of a win after a bad start
not knowing the setup there was no reason to believe Hoopla unless he could justify his claim
and he'd done suspicious posts, some of which hadn't been picked up on having to admit to lying to town if he wanted to change his verdict to meteor would take some explaining

lying to town is the ultimate scumminess

scum were unlucky in N1 (a guilty verdict and no night kill)
but after Hoopla's claim all scum had to do was keep out of the spotlight and they had a good chance of winning
anyway, i thought they panicked and made some suicidal mistakes -

meteor voted on MSSK
why? - MSSK's posts were so scummy it looked like he was going to be lynched anyway
it'd have been better for scum if meteor had just continued lurking

over9K counterclaimed...
why? - Hoopla was still suspecting MSSK -- by claiming, he was certain to be outed

meteor outed himself
why? - people voted on meteor cos he outed himself, not cos they believed Hoopla
MSSK was still looking scummier, and it was worth hanging on to see what the ICs would make of it all

over9000 hammered meteor
why? - the only way scum can win is if both scum stay alive in D2
it was a very small chance, but it's better than no chance at all

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

it should have been obvious to scum that Hoopla's false claim was a trap designed to try and out scum partner
it was so risky...
maybe Hoopla just assumed that scum were newbies and would do something stupid (which they did)

how was MafiaSSK going to react to being falsely voted on by someone claiming to be cop?
if scum didn't counterclaim, Hoopla would have to admit he'd lied to town
i don't think ICs would have believed him
if MafiaSSK had been lynched and turned out to be town this would place Hoopla under big suspicion
then the following could easily have happened -

D2 lynch MSSK - 5 town, 2 scum
N2 NK town - 4 town, 2 scum
D3 lynch Hoopla - 3 town, 2 scum
N3 lynch town - 2 town, 2 scum - scum win

PS i was the doctor and protected Hoopla N1 and there was no NK
but i had to take into account that i might have been roleblocked
Hoopla and meteor as scum was a possibility, with meteor sacrificing himself at the end
not attempting a NK on N1 would be a strange strategy
but it could lead to Doc getting misleading info thinking he'd protected town when he'd actually protected scum
and i was thinking if Hoopla as town is capable of implementing a strategy involving lying to town
then he's certainly capable of playing games with people's heads as scum

[idea]

PS for ref, the vote count in 448 is wrong -- it should be -

makemeameteor (5) - MafiaSSK, Hoopla, TAX, Lightwolf, over9000
Over9000 (1) - VisMaior
MafiaSSK (1) - Meteor

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if over hadn't counterclaimed i'd have voted MSSK D2 and Hoopla D3

@meteor - i didn't even have a FOS on you
you didn't

do

anything in D1 (apart from a load of agree posts)
the only thing that made me suspious was your unwillingness to contribute anything useful
and the fact that you were so defensive and paranoid when questioned
all i was asking was your thoughts on stuff, and you accused me of being scum!
(town does not usually invite town to vote on them)
oh, and the fact that you didn't have an avatar (which i think is scummy cos it's harder for town to find your posts)

i didn't play very well -- i posted way too often cos i was frustrated at how slow the game was
(i expected to be NKed for that)
protected Hoopla in N1 was a no-brainer -- i'd no choice as he'd made himself so prominent in the game
also he was the only other person posting at a reasonable rate
if he'd been NKed i'd have probably asked to be replaced so i didn't die of boredom
(i couldn't understand why scum didn't target one of the ICs N1)
voting meteor D1 again was obvious as he'd invited me to vote on him, which is scummy

for me, this game was way too slow -- the other forum i was on, everyone posted at least once a day or was in danger of getting lynched

[idea]

divine powers eh?

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@meteor -- it's about whether

others

think it's a good or stupid reason
when you didn't act on my comment re people having avatars that drew my attention to you
if you'd apologised and said you hadn't realised and uploaded an avatar, then that would be townish
a month never getting round to doing something that town has suggested is helpful is suspicious

it's only a little thing, but nevertheless that is one of the things which made me question you a bit more than i might have on D1
and that contributed to Hoopla investigating you N1
so in fact it could have been one of the reasons why scum lost the game

i cursed you and over9K and TAX many times for not having avatars
it made it so much harder for me to find your posts
(town spend lots of time going thru old posts -- scum don't -- they skim)

it's not significant that neither scum had avatars
it is significant that neither scum thought it was important to do anything about it when it was mentioned it could be unhelpful to town
of course you didn't think it was important -- that's because you were thinking like scum
if you'd been town and having to spend time tracking down early posts you'd have certainly seen it from a different POV

scum have to think and act like town to stay under town's scumdar

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Arafax, thanks for modding

good job to everyone and thanks for playing

aw... [blush] -- i bet you say that to all the newbies

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I don't think its a big deal and I was town.

well it was a big deal for me cos i was doing lots of work -

- checking old posts
- setting up spreadsheets of records of votes and FOSs
- trying to keep track of who was posting what and when in response to who
- making charts of possible alignments
ans more

why did i do all that? well it's stuff i picked up from experienced players on the other forum i played, and it payed off -

it helped me focus on meteor, which led to him doing scummy posts in D1, which probably influenced Hoopla into investigating him N1
it helped me be the only one who voted scum in D1
it helped me keep cop alive in N1

yes, sure there may have been some luck involved but the rest of it wasn't done using random.org

it's not that i'm saying i played well -- i don't think i did -- but i worked damn hard, and hopefully that helped town win

you not having an avatar made it harder for me to do my analysis
did you think it was good for town to make it harder for town to find your old posts?

i'm not saying it was the biggest thing in the world, only that every little bit helps

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@meteor -- it's about whether

others

think it's a good or stupid reason

Sorry that I just don't think it's that important.

if you are scum, and town think something you're doing or not doing is important, then it's important, believe me !
i know

you

don't think it's important -- and that's partly why you got investigated N1

you didnt think helping me out by putting up an avatar was important
this made me more suspicious of you cos we're supposed to be helping each other
so i questioned you a bit more than i would have done otherwise
and your replies under pressure were not convincing
and this led to me voting on you N1
and this made it easier for me to decide to protect Hoopla N1
and because of that, there was no NK
and because of that you were investigated

it also made me more supsicious of posts from over
again, that can't be good for scum

it doesn't matter whether i'm being stupid or not
when it comes to a lynch, votes from stupid people count just like everyone else's
so if there's something trivial which stupid people think makes you look like scum, then it's best to do something about it

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The reason I didn't want to kill an IC N1...

@over - it was a difficult choice cos scum had to take into account that there might be a doc
if so, then on your own reasoning re being the most helpful to town, Hoopla was the most likely to be protected
so i thought that scum would play safe and go for the next best choice, an IC

all a bit WIFOM

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@over - who did you block?

in N1, if it was between idea and Hoopla, then why didn't you block one and kill the other? i don't understand...

in N2? Hoopla had already said he was going to investigate you so presumably you blocked him? in which case Hoopla would have got a town response for you

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@TAX -- when trawling thru looking for a post, i found it easier to look for avatars rather than names or post numbers
maybe it's partly because i don't have 20:20 vision

when i look at non-newbie games the experienced players all seem to have avatars, and i guess there's a reason for that
and i've also seen it used as a reason for voting during RVS in newbie games
whatever -- it still helped lead to me voting on meteor in D1
anyway if we play again in the same game you now know
so whether you're town or scum, i'm going to be a little bit more suspicious of you if you don't have an avatar

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@over -- as i understand it scum can attempt a kill

and

roleblocker can roleblock, even if they're the same person

i had to check about my role pm with Arafax to find out whether doc could save themself and whether doc was sane

i also got a misleading night choice pm from Arafax -
"If you want, you can submit a name to me and if the Mafia tries to kill that same person tonight, you will have saved them."
which implied there was no roleblocker!

and i also had to check to find out, if power role was role blocked whether they were told they'd been blocked or not

all these things vary from mod to mod
so they're often specified in the info post at the start of a game

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@idea, I was told by Arafax I could either block or kill (though I'm pretty sure that's not right for a newbie game). Both nights I found it better to kill, seeing as how if I had blocked N2 Hoopla would have known it was me anyway.

i think what Arafax meant was you had a choice - you could either block and kill, or just kill, or just block, or do nothing at all
but why you chose me was strange -- i was the only newbie who was trying to stop the rush lynch on meteor in D2
mainly because the logical thing with a counterclaim, is to vote on the 2 claimers
which is why i was curious what the 2 ICs would make of it all
there again, it might have been a long wait...

if you had blocked Hoopla, Hoopla wouldn't have known it was you for sure
he didn't know there was a roleblocker
you thought he was crazy townie... well that was still a possibility -- after all he'd just lied to town !

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looking at some of their other games i think we just happened to get 2 ICs who generally don't post a lot
also they were probably more involved with their other games

the trouble with small games is that there isn't enough time to vote off lurkers, who i enjoy lynching just as much as lynching scum lol
on the other forum i played, everyone was asked to post at least once a day

well i guess it's all experience