Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[WeatheredClown]

sorry about that.. didn't check over the weekend.
Confirmed!

[WeatheredClown]

well.. I'll do the best I can to bring my "a bit more" to the table.

[WeatheredClown]

mrfixij, you've used FOS but voted for somebody unrelated. How is this different from Panamon's FOS and not voting? By your actions you show that your choice of vote and your choice of FOS were mutually exclusive.

Mastin definately has stepping into some trouble. Saying that you are going to "try something" makes us all look like suckers if we let you get away with that and then turn out to be scum.

Also mrfixij, I take issue with you trying to immediately remove one of our ICs stinks of fear.

Vote: mrfixij

Also.. to address the concern that I wanted "more time to plan my strategy".. it's kinda meta-gamey, but anybody who was interested can see that I hadn't logged in to get my role PM from the time that this game started until the time that I confirmed, so it's clear that I didn't even know about this game. Although again, I do apologize for causing the delay.

=======================================

Page 2 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (0/5)
mrfixij: (1/5) WeatheredClown,
Mastin: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Panamon: (1/5) Scheherazade,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) mrfixij,

Not Voting: (6/9) Crysnia, Mastin, Moses le fou, Panamon, springlullaby, orangepenguin,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[WeatheredClown]

the longer Mastin goes without posting.. the more votes I'm sure he's going to attract.

Right now I'm not really considering voting or not voting as scummy since it's still early and some people perfer to just wait a bit. Once people finally do vote though, how long they waited will definately be used to evaluate the choice that they made.

[WeatheredClown]

Well.. Mastin's post has only left me feeling more suspicious due to spurious logic (and somewhat inscrutable use of abbreviation as well).

I'm not moving my vote yet because I'd like to see if this strange behavior passes. More concerning though is that Mastin doesn't seem to be valuing the "treat this game like a commitment" rule. Certainly a break can be taken from anime in order to honor a commitment.

Scheherazade, I would say that laying so much out on the table gives scum an advantage and a better ability to hide at this early stage.. I would stick to making accusations and backing them up, and of course defending yourself. At least until we get more posts.

Additionally, I too am in favor of more posts from SpringLullaby.

[WeatheredClown]

I always spell definitely incorrectly..

this is apparently a common ailment among idiots, and therefore I will need to work harder in order to mend my ways.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... definately

[WeatheredClown]

Masti*:
In my first game of mafia (played elsewhere) I had the benefit of being paired with a more experienced player. My first thought was to use lots of reverse psychology in the main thread. He informed me that a more experienced player could usually do this, but from an inexperienced player people tend to assume that you're just bad at the game.

I've seen the pattern repeated several times. I'm not saying that it makes any sense, since people that have varying degrees of cunning regardless of their experience with online mafia, but there you have it.

[WeatheredClown]

I'm not too keen on policy lynches for policy lynching sake in Newbie games, with 9 players, barring successful doc saves, it's lylo with 2 mislynches - and more often than not you've got a bigger proportion of newbtowns who don't know how to avoid scummy pitfalls than 2/9.

I'm probably just being dense, but do you care to ellaborate more on how that applies here directly?

Meantime, I suggest everyone look up common logical fallacies

Good link.. Re-reading these was useful after actually having some experience actually in a game.

[WeatheredClown]

Out of curiousity.. amongst the first time players.. who has played this game elsewhere in other forms?

[WeatheredClown]

At first I defended mastin just to play devil's advocate.. but I think that he's done a better job of defending himself now so I'm not as completely convinced of his guilt..

I think I agree on the good scum -> bad scum -> bad town -> good town scale as being the ideal...

But of couse the good scum the hardest to identify and leads people to go for the people on the bad scum/bad town border...

That's a slippery slop though in a newbie game since there could be mostly bad town here..

[WeatheredClown]

Is it true that we haven't seen panamon since Page 2?

[WeatheredClown]

Is it true that we haven't seen panamon since Page 2?

Why do you ask?

Because reading through the thread I thought that panamon seemed a bit shady early on and I wasn't sure if there were any more posts after page 2 that I just didn't see.

[WeatheredClown]

dude! I never even noticed that!

thanks.

[WeatheredClown]

!unvote

Ok.. so Panamon is my lead suspect right now... but am not willing to put the vote at l-1 since then he could get, as the kids say, hammered.

[WeatheredClown]

EBWOP,
technically.. with two mafia... panamon could get hammered right now, right?
unless... well.. perhaps I've already said too much..

[WeatheredClown]

WC: If Panamon is your lead suspect, as you say, why are you so convinced the mafia will speed lynch? If you think he's mafia, vote him, but if you think there is two elsewhere, then Panamon can't be scum, if there is two scum coming to speed lynch.

Panamon is my lead suspect.. that doesn't mean that I'm super anxious to be proven wrong by making it easy for the scum to jump on the bandwagon..

unless there is already scum on the bandwagon..
(which, as some of you figured out... was my unless)

[WeatheredClown]

welcome mark... or do you prefer question?

Anyway.. you have an uphill battle ahead of you, so get caught up and then dive in!

We're glad to have you.

[WeatheredClown]

As for the Mastin bit, the result of his investigation should only be revealed after we've lynched the other mafia player. Why are you advocating an investigation already?

What's the story with this?

[WeatheredClown]

Alright, let's go through this piece by piece.
*snip* I don't like it either, but all signs point to lynchalicious or village idiot

Ok.. either your very confused, or you are maliciously trying to confuse the situation..
to quote the original post:

This Newbie game is "semi-open" and will be using the F11 set-up.

That means no village idiot in this game, no matter what the setup is.

[WeatheredClown]

I'm getting a bit more of a scum vibe from Orangepenguin than I did earlier in the game.. and mastin had scum written all over him from the beginning..
And they haven't voted.. perhaps keeping their options open to drop a hammer?

Of course that'd be rediciously obvious, so I suppose it's unlikely (occham's razor and what-not)...

Anyway.. can't bust somebody for not voting without casting a vote myself..

vote: mastin

although mrfixitj (who I had put my very first vote on) is still on my shady-list. (saved by the fact that he is a prodigious poster which is a very ballsy move when you're scum)

[WeatheredClown]

Follow the link next time. I don't mean VI the role, I mean VI the personality type.

apologies.. I assumed the links was to this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester


As for orange, going back to panamon as the standby seems too convinient.. even if panamon is scum, there's another scum also, so waiting for the replacement to pipe up feels like stalling...
I was tempted to do this too since panamon is also my lead suspect, but decided instead to see what happens if we continue to discuss mastin as a suspect (hence my vote), but orange seems be defending him... Although I suppose that as an IC, he'd know that if Mastin comes up scum that'll be really fishy.

[WeatheredClown]

holy cow..

Crysnia

.. I totally forgot we had somebody else in the game...

So if Crysnia is scum and is very happy with the people that we've been selecting so far, then that would be very interesting.

So at this point, I'd really like some more actual information. I'm not advocating for a speed lynch at this point, but I would like everybody to have a vote here and a reason for it.

I've voted for maston because at best we'll hit scum, and at worst, he's a terrible distraction and a convenient scapegoat that we'd probably be better off without at this point.

So let's recap for everybody's benefit since the thread has been a bit rambly. Could everybody else susinctly explain their vote if they have one, and if not.. look through the thread and pick somebody and back it up with a reason. There's a ton of information here amongst everyone's comments.. except for the people who haven't commented, and there's probably information there as well.

[WeatheredClown]

Wow.. looks like things are picking up..
I haven't seen anything that negates my vote for Mastin.

I do wonder about mrfixitj, but he seems awfully chatty to be scum, but sometimes strong belligerance can be an tell as well, I guess.

I really liked the pairing of springlullaby and mrfixitj in the post by Scheherazade and is definately a good post to squirrel away and look at later in the game when more is known. I'm not sure if it's really detecting a pattern or if its constructing one where there was none; It would be interesting to try to do this same thing with any other two people to find out.

Also.. welcome to Battle Mage, who has taken on the unenviable role of the second replacement for a -2 player. Showing up strong (clearing up the lingering questions raised by the previous two player's inactivity) and casting well reasoned suspicions on others is a great way to move the vote off of you.. but it certainly doesn't clear you yet.. but at least I feel like we're now going to have a fair chance at making the decision now.

[WeatheredClown]

Because tomorrow we really won't have more information on him. He has nothing to look at and really has never added anything other than his vote.

That's a pretty interesting strategy... seems enticing initially..
but doesn't that just amount to voting out the inactives first?

If we universalize that maxim, it seems as though scum could just make sure to post enough per game day to ensure that they survive to then end.

[WeatheredClown]

Judging by the other games I've played with orange, he's fitting his meta perfectly right now. 1-2 pages of posts for 10+ pages of discussion, generally 1 liners and minor contributions unless the discussion shifts directly to him. He basically plays every game like a cop.

Anyways, I'm sure you're all surprised but I'm generally out of material for now. I will come back tonight after I'm done fencing and review the thread in its entirety, update my notes, and see what I can pick up.

foil, épée, or sabre?

(or perhaps you were referring to selling stolen items)

[WeatheredClown]

...
Look at what he did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy). In and of itself, I did not find it incredibly scummy (which is why I did not vote for Panamon while that was going on).

Isn't the other option here to claim that responding to that would be discussing a different running game, and so it should be removed from the table?

[WeatheredClown]

I notice a lot of talk of strategy and people being "experts" on this game. I was under the assumption that this was a beginner game. Everyone who keeps assuming that they are more knowledgable about Mafia than the rest of us should 1)Stop beating up on the newbies who may not know much about the game and this is their first go 2)If you are really that advanced, then what the hell are you doing in the newbie game.

/rant

All newb games start out with a couple of experienced players to get the ball rolling.. additionally, we seem to be picking up more as newbs sub out.

On an unrelated note..
I may be changing my vote depending on what we hear from our new player..

[WeatheredClown]

Weathered Clown, what do you think of BM?

I think that BM is doing an admirable job. I haven't identified anything that he is doing as an obvious "slip up" but it is clear that he's working very hard to clear his name. This could just as easily be either because he is A) innocent or B) guilty. Given that, I've decided to go for simpler picks on day 1 in hopes that a pattern of guilt or innocence will immerge wrt BM.

Of course, having said all that, I would follow a BM vote if that's what we needed to move the game forward since its one of our few obvious possibilities. (Mastin seemed like another obvious one)

[WeatheredClown]

Why would you vote for someone who you dont find scummy?

BM

You arrived with everybody already focused on you and suspicious that you were scum.. I believe that you played the only way that you could, regardless of if you were or not..

therefore, my vote is based on your predecessors' actions. (they had the same role as you)

!unvote

!vote BM

sorry for my extended absence.. I got a flu shot.. but it gave me the flu.

[WeatheredClown]

Why would you vote for someone who you dont find scummy?

BM

You arrived with everybody already focused on you and suspicious that you were scum.. I believe that you played the only way that you could, regardless of if you were or not..

therefore, my vote is based on your predecessors' actions. (they had the same role as you)

!unvote

!vote BM

sorry for my extended absence.. I got a flu shot.. but it gave me the flu.

If i recall, i had 2-3 votes, and when i came in, i was 1 of 3 wagons of that size. It's a slight exaggeration to say that i was ever under massive pressure.

I'll read through your posts in a sec.

BM

Ok.. looking back through the conversations to find my justification for my recollection of this:

When Panamon left the game, there were 3 votes on that person, as well as three undecided votes, at least one of which was leaning toward panamon.. which would have made 4 if panamon weren't inactive..

That was by far the biggest band wagon going.

Take it for what you will, that's what I was recalling that lead me to make that statement.

[WeatheredClown]

Does anybody feel like we're being hasty with our day 1 vote?
I am personally feeling chatted out after 15 pages of day 1 so it doesn't feel like a "speedy decision".. but I'm curious on everybody else's read.

[WeatheredClown]

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

admittedly, I'm not as wordy as you guys are.. which is not to say that I don't participate to the conversation, and attempt to participate meaningfully. I do however tend to make posts surrounding other posts that I either agree with or disagree with and the posts should be read in the context of the posts around them.

Given that as my M.O., I wouldn't be surprised if a filter of just my posts would not be as useful as a reading of my posts as part of the larger conversation.

I do admit that I made my comment about an uphill battle based on the state of the game when your predecessor subbed in, rather than when you subbed in, because I felt like the overall impression by most players was that you were inheriting a scum role.

The votes seem to bear this out as continuing to be the prevailing sentiment.

[WeatheredClown]

Just read through Weathered Clown's posts in isolation. Quite amusing really. The only negative comment he makes about either of my precursors is that "Panamon seems a bit shady" on page 1. He fails to elaborate any more, merely choosing to repeat that Panamon is his top suspect, and anyone replacing him will have a tough job on their hands.

Perhaps you might like to elaborate on why you are voting for me, or why you were suspicious of Panamon, because so far you've been remarkably quiet on this, for someone who casts an L-1 vote.

BM

admittedly, I'm not as wordy as you guys are.. which is not to say that I don't participate to the conversation, and attempt to participate meaningfully. I do however tend to make posts surrounding other posts that I either agree with or disagree with and the posts should be read in the context of the posts around them.

Given that as my M.O., I wouldn't be surprised if a filter of just my posts would not be as useful as a reading of my posts as part of the larger conversation.

I do admit that I made my comment about an uphill battle based on the state of the game when your predecessor subbed in, rather than when you subbed in, because I felt like the overall impression by most players was that you were inheriting a scum role.

The votes seem to bear this out as continuing to be the prevailing sentiment.

Now you see, this is the thing i am having trouble with. When i speak to you, i want YOUR opinion, not the opinion of the majority. The majority is bound to be affected by scum, whereas if you are town, your opinion is something we can work with. I really hate these generalisations, because it sounds like you aren't playing the game for yourself, and are instead riding on the vibe of the town.

I'm still interested to hear why you think Panamon was scummy enough for me to warrant being at -1 atm.

BM

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

!unvote

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

[WeatheredClown]

Honestly.. one of my strongest suspects is still Alduskkel.. who I admire for having put 5 hours into pouring through the thread (which resulted in a very long email) but then has had very little to say since then other than flinging about fingers of suspicion. What I would like to see is how we could start bringing the group to a consensus, but we all still seem entirely fragmented and unable to make progress.

I've also been suspicious of myfixitj off and on for the entire game, so I should perhaps be a little bit weary persuing votes for my two lead suspects (Alduskkel and BM) since those are also his.

I'll be more firm once my questions are answered.

Also, you don't have to disagree with mrfixij on everything. It's okay to agree with him on some things. If mrfixij said that cancer was bad would you disagree with him?

well.. if mrfixij said that cancer was mafia, and I thought he was mafia, then I might not believe him.

I don't think that's something he's likely to say though.

[WeatheredClown]

Ok... I'll admit to riding on the vibe of the town.

And that's incredibly scummy play.

FOS: WeatheredClown

I didn't mean that I was doing it intentially... but that from going back and looking at my posts, it was largely what I had done.

So I was unvoting until I had a better set of personal justification.

[WeatheredClown]

argh ffs!

I knew it was Moses when i made my original response. You responding for him has blown my mind. I don't understand why you felt the need to answer for him, or how your comments make any sense. 0.o

BM

I think you're confused...
your original response was not a moses quote..

[WeatheredClown]

I don't see how "lack of evidence" is a proper response on day 1 since there's actually no "evidence" of anybody doing anything to anybody.

Seems like any pretext for a vote is acceptable. It could be saying that somebody objects too much, or too little or is too talkative or not participatory enough or is trying to confuse things, or not trying to confuse things enough. The two people that I would have considered "obvious choices" because of their particularly bad play style are no longer in the game, and were replaced with more skilled players, which complicates things.

At this point can anybody really say that they are doing anything other than "picking a name from a hat"?

[WeatheredClown]

Crysnia, are you still on board with your vote for OrangePenguin?
That was a vote for lurking, right?

I'm curious as to whether you have any other leading suspects.

[WeatheredClown]

This is going to take forever.

I agree with this...
Crysnia.. I don't think that the OrangePenguin vote is going to pick up steam...

How do you feel about voting for Battle Mage or Alduskkel?

(both were subbed in for players that were acting like scum before they left)

[WeatheredClown]

Let me take a step back for a moment.

But I do believe that the mislynch should result in the lynching of the person who pushed the hardest to lynch someone innocent. But that would be logical. I do find it odd that you would refer me to a game in which the scum win.

THIS. IS. WRONG. Cases are across the board. Scum doesn't put forth a strong case. Scum is opportunistic, and gets on a bandwagon with some happy medium of information, or may even start it like so. Scum has to let town do the work for them to be successful.

Yeah.. I don't think that targeting someone who pushed hardest for an incorrect lynch is the safest thing to do automatically... What you need to do is watch that person's future posts very carefully, and certainly don't be eager to jump on their next bandwagon. They might be the right lynch the next not, or perhaps not.

I really want you to explain what kind of positive ramifications can come from lynching a town leader.

An unconfirmed "town leader" is really dangerous to everybody. As soon as anybody starts referring to themselves as such, or are referred to by others thusly, you need to re-examine your assumptions.

[WeatheredClown]

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: 425 Reply with quote
Alduskkel wrote:
Battle Mage wrote:
AtoE
What?

And BM, even if Moses' case is faulty (which it is) how does that constitute a scumtell?


Appeal to Emotion. I've answered your question at least twice on this page already. You just arent reading.

BM


=======================================
Page 18 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (1/5) Battle Mage,
Moses le fou: (1/5) orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, mrfixij,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (2/9) WeatheredClown, Alduskkel,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

Votals haven't changed since yesterday.

What about your opinions WC? You haven't bothered to place a vote yet, and you haven't really placed suspicion ANYWHERE. Your thoughts also seem to mirror Crys's and you're asking which of two wagons which neither of you are part of she supports. I'm slightly confused.

fixitj... I've stated that I'm most suspicious of BM and Alduskkel.. and I've tried out voting for both... But I retracted my L-1 vote for BM because it put him at L-1.

If we're deciding that the majority is willing to vote out BM (which it seems like we're close to doing) then I'll put my votes back there, but it won't be an unjust and hasty hammering..

That's my thinking anyway.

[WeatheredClown]

Also, Crysnia, don't get tunnel vision on me and BM. There are other available lynches, though I'm not yet decided on which to go with.

I'll think it over some more.

Right now, the two of you are my lead suspects, as well as the two people who seem to have the most votes.. If we can reach a consensus here then day 1 ends, giving us more information than we have and hopefully getting this game "unstuck".

[WeatheredClown]

Sorry.. after the holiday I forgot about this game.

Looking at WC's posts, I'm not so sure that he has been riding the vibe of the town. He's given his own reasons for things. I find it interesting that he crumbled so easily. Also, care to tell us how you went from Post 319 to Post 355?

I'd still like an answer to this, WC.

Umm.. post 319 to post 355 seems like a logical transition to me. I said that in order to move the game along, BM was a reasonable choice that it seemed likely that we could reach consensus on. At the same time, I'll admit that I've been using other people's summaries of the situations just as often as using my own reads on the things those people were reacting to (because day 1 has been so long).. which I'll admit is "riding the town vibe".

I totally do not like that last post from mrfixij but I'll let people answer for themselves.

Why not? I can definitely see where he's coming from.

Yeah.. I don't like it either.. I happen to agree with Crysnia's points, and am trying to reach a consensus (the two of us are definately in the same position right now of having swing votes that could end the day) so I'll admit to a conspiratorial tone there, but I can assure you that its entirely innocent.

OK, maybe we should try to reach some sort of compromise vote? Right now, BM's in the lead (and we all know how I feel about that), but if enough of us agree that somebody else might be a safer choice, I'm willing to switch over for the sake of avoiding a no-lynch.

In addition to BM, WC, Crysnia, penguin and I each have a vote. I'm obviously not voting for myself. Does anybody want to argue as to why we SHOULDN'T lynch any of those people? Maybe if we can narrow it down to one or two choices, a consensus will be easier to reach.

Careful Moses... I also tried to encourage the group to reach a consensus, but was accused of riding the town vibe and acting like a scum buddy.. Tread lightly.

The crumbling is a scumtell because that in itself is riding the vibe of the town; you're going with the flow. And posts 319 and 355 makes it seem like WC was opportunistically voting for BM. But I can't explain why WC later unvoted... BM would be a pretty good lynch for the scum if he's pro-town because they could just say, "Well, BM was acting suspicious to everyone so it's not a scumtell that I voted for him."

I'm "crumbling" because I don't yet have a strong opinion, and having put somebody at L-1 I wanted to step away from that as tempting fate..

but I may as well go for it..

!vote BM

[WeatheredClown]

Let the record show that I hereby suggest an anti-pairing between BM and WC. If BM is town, WC is most likely scum, and vice-versa.

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. It sounds neat.

[WeatheredClown]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I'm not clear on what you're talking about with regards to a momentum shift.

I placed a vote to take BM to L-1... discussion picked up.. I unvoted BM to get rid of L-1 so we could discuss. Mention of an imposed timelimit was dangled, I went back to L-1. I don't think that during that time there were any "shifts" like you were talking about so I don't think that I was "stoking a fire" or whatever you are driving toward.

Additionally, this post makes me more suspicious of

you

than I have been in a while. I don't feel like any of the conclusions you're drawing are valid; Your descriptions of my actions don't seem to match up with what I'm actually doing if you look at my posts.

[WeatheredClown]

Perhaps mrfixitj is trying really hard to be helpful, but I think he's just introducing a lot of static. Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.
Wouldn't any vote on day 1 be based on something that could find its roots in the documented logical fallacies? After all, the first day isn't actually based on logic because there's no data! I feel like you're using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony. For me... day one.. that's my biggest scum tell. So I'm going to go with my initial gut, and change my vote.

!unvote
!vote mrfixitj

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

[WeatheredClown]

I think that after enough real days on the same day.. everything kind of turns to mud..

so that's why I'm just going to stick with my original mrfixitj vote (one of the few people who I've suspected whose account hasn't changed hands)...

Not sure exactly what all the fuss is about "riding the town vide"...
When I made a decision that wasn't entirely based on my own reasoning and then it was pointed out to me, I owned up to it, went back and read threads myself, and changed my vote..

That doesn't seem like "crumbling" to me rather than being big enough to admit that I could have read the situation incorrectly.

[WeatheredClown]

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Is that *really* WIFOM?
Isn't it just making a good guess on what the scum is likely to be doing? (not acting as a unified front this early in the game)...

I would think that WIFOM would be then saying..
"Oh-ho-ho, that's exactly what they WOULD do because that's the last thing that they'd expect!!"

That's at least by my understanding of the term.

[WeatheredClown]

Answer this question for me: Where did you ride the vibe of the Town? What I'm trying to say is that I don't think you have been riding the vibe, but you went ahead and didn't defend yourself. We all know that if someone gets into an argument about something they did (or didn't do) then it draws attention to them. Scum don't want that.

Ok.. I'll tell you exactly what I was referring to about myself when I said that I was "riding the town vibe".

I said

Of course, having said all that, I would follow a BM vote if that's what we needed to move the game forward since its one of our few obvious possibilities. (Mastin seemed like another obvious one)

Immediately after BM picked up a few votes I "rode the town vibe" (as I said that I would) and voted for him.

But then BM said, "hey, you're just riding the town vibe".. and I looked back and my last few votes and said, "hey, I guess you're right, that's exactly what I did".

hope that clears things up as to where I was coming from..

so with where things stand right now.. I think that I'm tied with two votes with BM...

so I'm hoping that this changes one way or another before the deadline..

[WeatheredClown]

You should really try and defend yourself WC; if you don't, chances are you will be deadline lynched, assuming votes don't change between now and the 14th.

As far as I'm aware, I've addressed everything that was directed to me.
Is there something that I missed?

[WeatheredClown]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations.

What possible motive could he have for admitting to a scumtell which he didnt commit? Or perhaps more relevant- what possible PROTOWN motive could he have had?

BM

Well, as WC commented, he did in fact do it. But let's assume he hadn't committed the scum tell for the purposes of answering your question.

I can't really think of a Pro-Town motive for admitting to a scum tell you didn't commit. But scum might admit to it in the interest of keeping the spotlight off of them, since if 2 players get into an argument it naturally draws attention to them. And scum don't want that.

But again, he did ride the vibe of the Town so this is irrelevant.

I can't figure out how this is a scum tell though. To me it feels more like "getting caught up in the moment."..

perhaps "riding the vibe" is a term with special meaning on this forum, and therefore it is not something you should say about yourself, where as "upon reconsidering, my reasoning was not as solid as I had thought when I cast the vote".

to me.. those two statements are the same, but maybe that's from not yet being as immersed in the "reserved phrases" of this forum yet.

[WeatheredClown]

To clarify, the two arent really the same. In saying your rode the vibe of the town, you say that your original vote was for reasons of others, rather than genuine suspicion. Following other UNCONFIRMED people is scummy. It has nothing to do with how solid your reasoning was, because it wasnt your reasoning.
BM

Aaannnd... that's why I unvoted when I realized that's what I was doing... I see we've now caught up to the present.

[WeatheredClown]

Thanks! I feel like I may have addressed some of this already, but I'll put it all here for good measure.

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). In a recent postof his he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

yeah, kinda.. but people are all so different, it's hard to distinguish a tell from a quirk... I tend to think that the real logic come in after votes start to reveal data which can be tabulated against. I'm not saying the the votes have to be "random" (especially after day 1 has gone on for weeks), but it's very different from the decisions that are use for deeper into the game (where in my opinion it gets really fun)

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

his talk of scumpairs for people who agree with each other (this many people means some of them are going to agree with each other's logic) and suspicion for not casting votes (day 1 there's isn't a lot to go on if you like to have solid evidence before casting a vote) seem like things you'd start using later in the game. Just my opinion. He seems to be enjoying using the jargon more than getting to know the people then making a final judgement. Could just be his style, but it's certainly very different from has been developing as my preferred play method (after all of 1 other game).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

addressed above... but out of curiosity... why are you directing so much suspicion toward me for my comments against mrfixij? that in and of itself is a *little* suspicious.

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

I think that I was saying in a previous post that I don't think that this is WIFOM, rather as you said, "We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?"" seems reasonable to me... although here I see that you're trying to throw suspicion onto BM in case mrfixij gets voted off today... more evidence that you and mrfixij are the scum? I doubt it could possibly be that easy, but interesting none the less.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

[/quote]
I haven't liked mrfixij ever since he said that somebody was shady for claiming somebody else was shady for using FOS, when they didn't appear shady to me at all.. This began a series of conclusions that he was coming to that I felt like reaching.. so I think that mrfixij is the vote that is most true to my opinions. Perhaps in my heart of hearts there is an OMGUS element to it, but it's the direction I've been leaning this whole day.


let's plug this in and see how I did with the quote/unquote above.