Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

An RVS no?

You tell me.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.

StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?

An RVS no?

You tell me.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Vote: StrangeMatter

[Haschel Cedricson]

You are saying that your vote on Hockeyfan was RVS, correct?

[Haschel Cedricson]

i guess it's a natural progression of asking a question and not getting an answer so maybe it's okay

i just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering but maybe now strangematter will answer

I gave some slack, thus the empty quote.

Now let's be proactive.

[Haschel Cedricson]

You are saying that your vote on Hockeyfan was RVS, correct?

Correct.

And immediately before that vote, you asked a question about our confidence in winning the game, correct?

[Haschel Cedricson]

So why ask it?

Right now it looks like you asked an RQS question to try and gauge alignment and then voted for somebody who hadn't had a chance to interact yet, and then dodged followup questions about it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

HockeyFan, I am trying to follow your read progression on STD. Can you explain it more. You gave him a really early "confident town read," then backed it off of it with

Also, speaking about SVD:I did call him town earlier but after seeing post#52 and post#56 idk about that anymore, He was trying to soft defend his possible scum partner so SVD is back to null leaning scum. I also really liked this questioning by Zyla and I feel like scum dont try to push on someone who was already TR'D by 1-2 people.

Who is he protecting there? Strangematter? Do you even scum read Strangematter? I thought I was your strongest scum read, at least you are voting me, so then why would you be of particularly suspicious of his interaction with Strangematter and haschel?

Can you walk me through your thinking?

Ok so, I town read STD because of post#13. That post had the aura of being "I am town, I'm confident and I am going to win this game for town". My read switched on him because of posts #52 and #56 where he said "strangematter, i think haschel wants your attention" and "i just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering". These 2 statements feel like very mafia partnery like to relieve some pressure

As of right now, Strangematter is a null read for me(maybe leaning scum), You are my strongest scum read, so does that mean i'm not allowed to see other pairs in partnership because fwiw the strangematter/STD pair seemed very likely. I was suspicious because I have 0 idea why STD Needs to intervene their. Like my SR'S rn are You -> STD -> StrangeMatter. Hope this helps. and btw, My read on u might change back to null soon based on the

interactions between strange and STD

I am gonna get off for now, so i will be answering questions tmr morning

Who is scummier, STD or StrangeMatter?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)

Can you restate why Strange is scum?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)

Can you restate why Strange is scum?

Based off your questions for me, and likely the start that I had early on.

Please do not answer questions that weren't specifically addressed to you. I don't care about what your answer to the question is; I do care very much that you spoonfed Hockey an answer before he had a chance to answer it for himself.

Yea sorry about that should have clarified, the arrows in between STD and Strange dont necessarily mean "This person is wayyyyy scummier". I just used that list as "possible 3 scum fmpov". That list is interchangeable especially STD and Strange

This doesn't make sense. As far as I can tell your case on STD is dependent on STD being Strange's scumbuddy. If Strange isn't scum then you shouldn't still be thinking STD is scum based on what you've presented so far.

[Haschel Cedricson]

So is your list interchangeable or not?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote

Fair point, I forgot Newbie games are 9 players now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

I really need to ask this, but why did you push HockeyFan earlier? Just wondering.

His stated feelings about STD and you aren't quite consistent, and he's keeping the names out there without actually doing any investigating.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Need to read in depth but everybody needs to stop discussing Cyrus; we aren’t voting Cyrus.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Prod received, getting caught up now.

If everybody could quit spamming and double-posting that would be fantastic.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Wait a minute, I'm on page 19 and somebody quoted the OP. Cyrus is SE? I assumed he was a newbie. He's still not the vote for today but nobody else should be listening to him right now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I will come back later tonight. My grandpa died 30 minutes ago and that has knocked this down my priority list.

Please don’t kill me before then.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Going through everybody's ISOs. Done Pavowsky, who comes out looking good, and Strange, who does not.

Full deets when I'm done.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.

Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.

So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).

Vote: Zyla

is a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.

Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.

I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.

"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?

As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.

Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.

[Haschel Cedricson]

17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"

i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange

140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?

759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?

1) I was asked in RVS if I preferred being Town or Mafia. My reply was I prefer being vanilla town most of all. Somebody caught that but I'm too lazy to find out who.

2) Better, although admittedly that's partially because my two strongest scumreads have gone after him. I've skimmed his ISO but haven't done a deep dive yet like I did with the others I mentioned in my last post.

3) No comment.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.

70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757

Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.

• HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
  
  
  I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.
  
  
  
• Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.
  
  
  
  
• Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.
  
  
  While bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.
  
  
  
• HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.
  
  
  That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.
  
  The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.
  
  
  
• Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.
  
  
  I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.

All of that is weak as hell.

[Haschel Cedricson]

1) You focused on the RQS question, and ignored her calling him out over the the STD read

Gee I wish I had a second bullet point where I addressed the STD re...

2)That is a good thing?? If he is pressed over a read, and the response is "don't pay attention to my reads" why would she not keep pushing?

Yeah, like that one.

Counterpoint, what should HockeyFan have done with his read? Doubled down?

3)Here she is asking him to define how he is coming to a scum read. You are also ignored the fact that she pushes him over his partner associations. Like the exact line of questioning that she puts towards Hockey here, is the same basis for your vote on him in 132, but then you completely skip over that aspect of the questioning.

Yeah I skipped over that aspect of the questioning because it's an aspect I stopped caring about a long time ago.

4) I will concede the point about how Hockey would have perceived me; I was adversarial with his logic, which I can understand him taking to be that I thought he was scum.
But you ignore the part entirely, where she is also pressuring him over his scum read on her in that post.

Hold on, Hockey's scumread on Zyla is based primarily on her lazy case on Hockey. I agree with Hockey that Zyla is making a lazy case on Hockey. Zyla doesn't get townpoints with me by pushing back on that unless that push involves a much less lazy case than what I'm seeing here.

5) Again, you are ignoring the thing that she is actually pressing him over, which is the stuff over his reads of Azeru and Pav.

I was very explicit that I can't evaluate that stuff yet until I do my dive into Hockeyfan.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I

really

don't like how in 759 Haschel throws shade at Strange, and then Zyla, with similar reasons, recognizes the pairing as a "possibility", and then chooses to stray the conversation away from Strange. Saying that someone at E-1 is scummy and then steering the topic away from them entirely.

I know how people feel about StrangeMatter right now. I don't know they felt about Zyla.

Let's find out.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Maybe this is a personal thing, but I find this sort of response distinctly scummy. It basically tells the asker "I have more information than you and I'm not sharing it with you for reasons."

And the only people who definitely have any more *hard* information than any of us at this point are the mafia. Cyrus pulled this kind of crap A LOT and I feel the exact same way on those plays.

Now, Haschel has a direct, aggressive style, so maybe this is another of his targeted strikes like we saw earlier in the thread. But it hits me some kind of way.

Haschel

: Don't love the tone of his recent posts. He's deliberately hiding information, and has pulled attention entirely away from a player that was recently under pressure with motives that he refuses to disclose. Until he chooses to actually prompt discussion and give town information, this is a scummy lean.

Remember earlier how I mentioned how much I hate it when people answer questions intended for other people because it spoonfeeds them answers? By the same token when I want specific people to address something I'm not going to tell them in advance the sort of things I'm looking for.

Let me make something clear; my job is not to convince you all that I am town. Y'all can think I lean scum or whatever. My job as a member of the town (and the job of six of you as well) is to convince everybody that the people I believe are scum should be eliminated today. Everything else is secondary.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Oh, I haven't "no comment"ed my reads at all. It should be very clear what my reads are right now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Right, you know my read on Zyla and my read on Strange; the thing I No Commented was about why the focus was toward Zyla.

Thank you for backing up by point.

[Haschel Cedricson]

lynch me if it helps.

This isn't game-related at all but please stop saying "lynch"; that's not the term we use on this site anymore.

This goes for everybody but it especially goes to you considering you just messaged me to tell me the reason the mods took your avatar away was because it had the Confederate flag in it.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Time to check some other people's ISOs, especially people I haven't heard much about so far.

Start with Zyla's ISO, since you've only mentioned her once in this entire game.

[Haschel Cedricson]

So far from ISOs, I think that Zyla has been generally Town, but I think the first part of didn't sit well with me. I just don't see why that would be considered scummy to acknowledge the question that was designed to have many people answer the question. Maybe its just my thought process when it comes to Town, but I'd like to hear Zyla's logic regarding that post.

I see. What strikes you as particularly town?

[Haschel Cedricson]

So far from ISOs, I think that Zyla has been generally Town, but I think the first part of didn't sit well with me. I just don't see why that would be considered scummy to acknowledge the question that was designed to have many people answer the question. Maybe its just my thought process when it comes to Town, but I'd like to hear Zyla's logic regarding that post.

I see. What strikes you as particularly town?

After that first one that I felt was a little weird from, the question raised in [post]842 about Hockey initially TR STD felt reasonable to me. Even though its early in the game, it doesn't seem strange to point something like this out it. Still, I think I'll put her as a Town lean for right now.

I'm sorry, out of the entire ISO the thing that strikes you as particularly town is a post made on the previous page of the thread? Is that correct?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Not only that, post #420, #608, and #486 feel like town asking questions about things that they found a little suspicious to me.

Alright.

Now address my #759 (second half of post) and #772.

Be specific.

[Haschel Cedricson]

To address #759 and #772, at the time I had a read on Zyla based on early actions that she did with careful questions. However, right now I'm more conflicted with her being Town right now based off what you've said. They bring up some good points to why Zyla could be scum, so its fair to think about them too. So, the answer to your question is no. Not really, but I still think she's a weak Town lean right now, so if you don't agree, that's fine.

Now try again but with specifics this time. What points do you like? Which points do you disagree with?

[Haschel Cedricson]

No who ever has the most votes is majority. As of now the majority is StrangeMatter

Do you know the difference between a majority and a plurality?

That’s a rhetorical question.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I have mandatory Father's Day activities today so I'll be reading but not really posting a ton until this evening.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Oh btw,

@HC

are you able to answer now what made you choose me over strange?

Getting caught up but I'll address this: Strange already had a ton of pressure on them while you had none, and I also specifically wanted to see how Strange would react to the case on you.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Getting caught up now.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Cyrus, action results please.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I also think Luke's defense of Zyla was hardcore buddying.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Er, not buddying. The other verb.

Defending.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Huh.

[Haschel Cedricson]

No Zyla is 100% town the Br is dead hockey lets eliminate hc think about it the jail keep locked up Zyla so hc would know since he's se that Zyla is innocent. VOTE: hc

Why would I know that the jailkeeper locked up Zyla?

[Haschel Cedricson]

No Zyla is 100% town the Br is dead hockey lets eliminate hc think about it the jail keep locked up Zyla so hc would know since he's se that Zyla is innocent. VOTE: hc

Why would I know that the jailkeeper locked up Zyla?

Did you not read I told him to lock up Zyla? Have you not been using the two days to catch up

I did read that you told Azeru to lock of Zyla. I did not read anything indicating that Azeru agreed to do that.

Luke's interactions regarding Zyla were suspicious as hell so if Zyla is cleared via tracker then I need to go back to the drawing board.

[Haschel Cedricson]

"Keep" defending is a bit strong but I do see how a Luke/Hockey pairing could be feasible. I forget who came up with the theory but there's something called the Rule Of Three that states if a mafioso gives three townreads then one of the three will be a partner. Lukewarm put me/Hockey/Zyla as his three strongest townreads in 359, and then Zyla/Azeru/Hockey in 844 and 1012.

[Haschel Cedricson]

If Cyrus is Mafia then the real tracker would counterclaim; we know we have one because of the other flipped roles.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Gonna

Vote: HockeyFan

; he's the most likely partner for Lukewarm.

[Haschel Cedricson]

It hit 112 today which is way too hot to do any critical thinking so I'm not gonna go back and read a ton at the moment.

I did have a thing written up about STD being confirmed town since we didn't have a hammer but I guess that's not actually true since we aren't in Mislim-or-lose.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Pavowski has been pinging me as town all game so I'm inclined to think it's STD but I'm not going to go with gut alone here.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Lukewarm knew he was going to flip and gave some last reads. He pegged the scumteam as Pav/STD.

From my perspective obviously he was giving cover to his partner by calling them scum; since I know I'm town and Zyla is confirmed town this isn't up for debate with me. The question becomes who was he giving a worse reason for scumreading? He wanted to express suspicion of his partner but not in a way that would actually lead to danger.

The big things Luke said about STD was that he liked STD's reaction to my questioning of Strange but didn't like the line about "cutting a new player slack". That's weak. He was willing to lim STD instead of Strange because " I would expect more coming from his slot since he is an SE this game, but then he has also said he has irl stuff going on, so idk. Not planning on pushing here, but am willing to move there if it is the difference between a no-elim or not." On Day 2 he shifts to a case on STD which isn't bad, but isn't the sort of case that will get other people to jump on board.

Finally he says

GTH, the scum team is still [STD, Pav] imo. Finding out that we have a jailkeeper who saved me has only strengthened that read. It now makes Way More sense for the two of them to come out of the gate bussing one another. If they knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper had targeted the scum who tried to kill me, then yeah, they needed to start the day off working as hard as they could to make sure that they were not seen as partners. Scum are paranoid, and would have seen this day as a ticking time bomb until the jailkeeper outed one of them.

The partnership he floats is obviously wrong, but he makes a decent point about scum knowing there's a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper targeted scum. And who does he try to distance himself from first-thing? STD.

Pav has struck me as a decent townread all game while Fen has been closer to null. I think a Luke/STD partnership is a lot more likely than Luke/Pav.

Vote: Save The Dragons

[Haschel Cedricson]

No matter what Zyla shouldn't vote for anybody unless it's a hammer.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I think it's just haschel here but I still want to double check when I have a chance

Got an actual case besides vague support for where you know another player is already suspicious?

[Haschel Cedricson]

D1-
Haschel comments about the vanilla townie in his opening post which at first I thought was fine but the more I think about it the weirder it is. If you're trying to draw the night kill, why claim vanilla townie? you just told scum not to kill you. nah i think it's to make people think he's town.

I have already said that I never claimed VT; I was answering an RQS question. I've explained this several times and the fact you are still harping on it is weird.

Haschel chooses Zyla to target but keep in mind he's still scumreading strange. I think he was trying to stay off of Strangematter's mislim here while still shading them.

This is a game with multiple scum in it, and to find all of them we need to talk about other people. Everybody had already given stances on Strange and at the time nobody had given a stance on Zyla. I thought Zyla was scummy at the time. Obviously the case I made on Zyla was wrong. But is there ANYTHING about it that suggests it wasn't made in good faith? No there is not.

[Haschel Cedricson]

If it's Pav, good job man, you got me fooled.

Same to you.

Zyla?

Pav, look through STDs iso and tell me if you honestly see any scumhunting at all. My activity has been garbage but at least I’ve been trying when I’ve been here.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I have done scumhunting. My catchup poster d1 illuminate my thoughts and I've made my case against you now. I've posted reads multiple times. My activity has been pretty bad but I've been here

Your case against me is extremely thin and the reads you have given have either little/no explanation, focus on townreads, or see no follow up.

[Haschel Cedricson]

He was gunning for STD until I voiced some sus on him and then he turned it all on me.

That’s partially my point! He was gunning for STD until it looked like STD might actually gain traction and then he took his foot off the pedal.

[Haschel Cedricson]

GG

That handwaving away of Lukewarm’s last distancing actually makes me think it may be Pav after all.