Newbie 682 - Mayhem in Umore - Game Over, Scum Win!

[Mirth]

/confirm

'ello all, I'm Mirth and I will be one of your

friendly

neighborhood ICs for this thing. Feel free to harass me with any questions you might have.

Mod: can I vote you for being scum yet? Since I know you are?

[Mirth]

vote:dejkha

this vote should be obvious as it is *not* random. Placing a third vote on me on page 1 saying Nuereins has a lead before I even responded and then saying you don't want to accidentally lynch town.

Nureins: I don't believe in meta and I don't encourage you to either, but if you're going to, then meta all of me, please. I was a townie in Newbie 635 and also voted the mod there. I was a doctor in Mini 635 and also voted the mod there. So I find you resorting to meta in your first post suspect and I find your misleading use of meta also suspect, and frankly, it's hard for me to decide which of you to vote for first (you or Dej that is.) Mod voting is not indicative of anything usually, except joking.

As to my desire to vote Massive, if you feel like metaing futher, I recently got out of a game with him (mini 617, which I advise you all to read so you know how *not* to play), where he was scum. That was that reference.

Caf: actually its more likely for a townie to be the hammer vote on a quicklynch. Also why do you feel there is no need for a vote, random or otherwise?

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@Experienced Mirth: Why do you find me suspicious for setting a trap to launch discussion ? I immediately unvoted you and fossed dej which gives a clear message of how stupid I considered my first "case" on you.

The use of meta is what is suspicious here. This may be a personal quirk of mine, but I hate going on meta when there is nothing else to go by. Your attempt at discussion, if that is what it is, was a downright accusation based on meta, and incomplete meta at that. If you looked through my games enough to find where I modvoted or not, which you obviously must have to get the two you refer to, you must have come across the two I refer to too, and thus could not have been asking your question in good faith. As for the unvote, that could be any number of things, including trying to get brownie points from the town. I shall look at it once more when I'm ready to form an actual opinion of you (after page 5).

However, we need to disentangle if Dej is simply a total noob. Notice that he is suggesting in his answer that Day 1 is gonna finish quickly with random votes' stage...

Yeah, to me it doesn't seem like, on Day 1, most votes aren't influenced by anything since the game just started. I figured I'd go with any possible lead rather than taking an "eeny meeny miny moe" route. Obviously, I think I just learned that suspicion can arise easier than I thought lol.

And obviously this post is saying a whole lot of nothing. Here, by your wording, one would assume you're claiming randomness in your vote on me, even if it was a lead, but you ignore my vote on you and you don't address whether L-2 was warranted. Please address these issues.

Also why do you feel there is no need for a vote, random or otherwise?

1. Random voting isn't compulsory
2. This game moved out of the 'totally random votes' stage rapidly - there were real things to discuss. An unrelated vote would seem out of place.
3. I like to take my time and provide a (hopefully) measured analysis. Therefore, I'd prefer to wait before voting, at least until everyone's checked in and I've had a bit of time to think. Is that ok?

Fair enough. I actually hate RVS myself, but participate in it when needed since it's useful.

Also nothing wrong with theory as long as there is playing involved somewhere. I agree about not liking Nur's post.

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I dont like either random votes. So I use any excuse to vote and provoke debate. It has been so in the two previous games I have played in mafiascum, it has been so in this one, it will be so in all I play...

If I had said "Joke vote due to this meta !!", i wouldnt have appeared as suspicious, but I wouldnt have gotten any debate or traps.

This bothers me. Why are you concerned about appearing suspicious?

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I can see this will be a rather fast paced game.

Chuck, 31: why unvote me? What your L-3 vote on me actually hurting anyone or do you have a better place to throw it? Dej didn't put me at L-1 and I'm not defending myself so much as pointing out Nur's inconsistencies. (After all, I have mod voted as scum too.) Serous is a lurker? Really? The game barely started. Please don't start with the "they're a lurker! evil!" yet. Not everyone has as much time as you to post and its not lurking if they never show up in the first place. I don't like this lurker accusation from you. Also, as we are on page 2, it is too early to actually form a list of suspicion, especially considering not everyone has checked in yet and I object to two things about your list. 1)CAF and I will be by definition helpful and engaged, as we are the ICs. This is what we signed up to do. This does not make us town, just ICs. Be suspicious of everyone, including us. 2) please don't post your town reads unless a)you are replacing into a game and responding to a lot of backlog and thus should give everyone else the courtesy of your opinion or b)there is an actual need for defending someone.

Nur, 32: agreed that it's oversimplified. Not too sure if I like the wording of the first part of this post though.

Chuck, 33: First, Nur unvoted after Dej jumped on pointlessly. This can be valid. Second, experience does not make a person more or less scummy, just experienced.

Nur, 35: good posting.

Chuck, 36: you just played the newbie card again. The first time you did it for others, so I let it slide. You just played it for yourself. You earn and FOS. And seriously, maybe Mr. Avacado hasn't posted much yet because he hasn't had time to. I'm not liking this rushing of other players. Game barely started. I myself am a rather posty player, but if other people don't post as much, it is not an issue if they actually post regularly and make contentfull posts. (I.e. if someone posts once a day or once every 2 days, this is fine, and not necessarily lurking, and lurking is not always scummy, btw, it is mostly a null tell. Content over quantity.

[Mirth]

Nothing wrong with unvoting, your reaction to my question seems on edge though. Why?

[Mirth]

vote:dejkha

this vote should be obvious as it is *not* random. Placing a third vote on me on page 1 saying Nuereins has a lead before I even responded and then saying you don't want to accidentally lynch town.

I don't wanna accidently lynch town because of a random vote. I'd much rather it be because of a mistake I made with the reason I went with (nureins post). Even though it seems like you did explain yourself, I'm gonna take even the smallest lead I can get. If I unvote, I'll be right back to a mostly random vote. If someone else gives me a reason to suspect them, then I'll change my vote, but until then I won't.

I'd rather accidentally lynch town because of bad judgement in my reasoning, than because I didn't like someones face or something ridiculous like that >_>

In any event, it doesn't really seem to matter since there seems to be no convincing any of you.

I'm not asking you to unvote me. Never did. I just think your vote is a load of crap in that Nur's "reason" is a load of hogwash that is null and void. Yet you are clinging to it. If you were to vote me for something I actually said in this game, I would be taking absolutely no issue with you. I also don't like the "if I accidently lynch town" thing. What reasoning do you have here, exactly?

I also really don't like 43. At all. You accuse him of intentionally turning people against you, yet even if he was setting a "trap" (not sure I buy this, btw), how would he know who would stumble into it? Therefore you can't accuse him of setting a trap for you specifically. Also it is your play that is antitown, so whatever his provocation is, it still doesn't matter, because it is ultimately your play.

I see Nur already covered the above in 44 though...

I don't like Dej's whole "you all hate me" schtick.

Vote: Mirth

Im 1 in the crowd and if he dies, i dont
HORAY
soz Mirth but ur unpopular.

First of all, I am a she. Second of all, wtf? What is this post supposed to mean? In your next post you say you missed the second page, so you're wagoning for the sake of wagoning here. This bothers me immensely since you're ready to kill this early in the game before everyone has even turned up. And "you can die so I don't" is in no way protown. Your unvote also bothers me since you admit to not paying attention and then vote Nur without giving a reason ready to kill him off. If you think we should give everyone a chance, why are you ready to kill now?

unvote:dej
vote:seb

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Understand what exactly? That you're not addressing my critique of your actions and instead uttering platitudes that are rather irrelevant?

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I don't see why you have to attack me. Someone that has no understanding on how people think, and on my first game. I said that I'm going with the crowd. What more do you want.

FOS: Mirth

You change your vote on a mistake. Thats not normal.
Judging people on not paying attention. Thats just... um, i dunno but its not right.
I know we probably wont kill mafia day one but your pushing me to the lynch. That isn't helping. I'm a pro-town. Just stop. I don't have any specials. Just a normal townie that is getting attacked for

a mistake

forgetting to read a page isnt a crime, and you dont have any more of a better excuse than me for why we voted for the people we voted for.

Why do you feel the need to claim town unprovoked? Especially after I already called someone else on it? Why are you trying so hard so early to convince us that you're town? Do you think your actions so far have been townish?

And I do have a reason, not an excuse for voting you. It has nothing to do with you missing a page. It has to do with you randomly jumping on my wagon saying that you might as well vote to kill me so you don't die. On page 2. This is not protown behavior. Protown behavior is not "I'll jump on the first available wagon as fast as possible so I don't come under fire myself," it's asking questions, evaluating opinions, and waiting as long as necessary for a lynch. You are ignoring this part of my criticism and making me more determined in my vote on you. Voting someone to kill them before you get a chance to come under fire in no way helps anybody. My vote stands.

[Mirth]

Wow. I sleep for 6 hours and there's a whole page...

Responses as I read through it:

I am in no way telling you to unvote me. The only reason I claim town is to try and help town not waste a lynch. But it does seem kinda stupid now. If you want i wont wagon people but what else can i do. If I don't wagon, then my vote is random. What is better; Wagoning, or Random voting, because i think I'm more likely to kill mafia by wagon then by random. 2:7 odds aren't high and I don't want to kill innocents.

This is a false dichotomy. As I have said before, wagoning takes time. You don't decide on page 1 you want someone dead, you ask questions and talk. that is no blind wagoning, but wagoning after you have had time to play and make a case.

Nur, 55: this is very good posting. One thing though, and this is mostly personal preference: I don't like it when an early wagon gets more than 3 votes or reaches L-1 rapidly. Makes me also suspect the wagoners. as there is always enough time to vote later, especially if there's continued hole-digging.

hmm. I see your point entirly and i see where i went wrong.
me saying the wrong thing has in fact led me to believe i dont have long to live my game life. I would just like a simple apology as soon as i die by lynching. I dont mind death but i didnt want to die this early. I can still learn by looking from other people so yea. have fun.

If i dont die i'll be as suprised as you are when u see im innocent. i am the VI and i know it.
oh well, how many people actualy survive during their first game anyway.
Good bye, cruel world.
*Gives nur the finger*

First of all, that last bit is really immature. Second, you are continuing with exactly what Nur and I have both called you on: the newbie card. You are also continuing with the appeal to emotions and not making any effort to correct your acknowledged mistake.

Mod: can i suicide just so that i dont waste a lynch

This is the most antitown thing a townie can do. If you are town, there is absolutely no reason to suicide since there is no information from the lynching wagon, and it's not guaranteed you will be lynched. I also don't suggest it for scum, as it's unfair to the scum partner. This reaks of "you suspect me so I'm going to whine and be melodramatic about it." and is still not playing.

seb, 61: and a suicide *is* a waste of a town turn and puts us in a bad numeric position.
ARGH.

Mr A, 64: I don't like this post. It seems like its just skimming the surface. Care to give us a bit more of your reasoning? guilty of what? why?

Nur, 65: the last bit of this sounds like coaching for Dej...I don't like it.

Dej, 66: actually, I am choosing to take offense to this. Since you obviously have not been reading my posts very carefully. I don't care if people vote me. BUT I do care a lot what the reason behind a vote is poorly constructed and boils down to nonsense. I have already, multiple times, pointed this out. As to your other answers, you say you didn't vote me to go with the crowd, but do you think Nur's "case" on me was substantial for a lynch?

Well would you suicide yourself just to give us one extra kill, which would most likely be another townie. I think that with L-2 i wont go to extremes but if i end up with L-1 it might just be an option.
Theres seven of us and two of them, getting it to six is bad for us percentage wise but it will prove my point. I dunno.
And if it only took two people to influence your vote and theres two mafia..., just putting two and two together (no pun intended) but yea. I dont mind dieing but i dont wanna die for the wrong reasons.

You know, most mods end the day on a suicide/modkill as well as a lynch. This is poor reasoning. But just to be clear:

Mod: can you share with us your policy on modkillings? Also can we get a vote count?

I seem to recall hearing we don't have to vote. Is that true, because I think I'll skip it this time around.

If that is true, i cooduve avoided evrything. Its too late now, btw where dija hear that?

He read the rules on site, obviously. I highly recommend it.

Nur 69: while self-voting is bad, in this case I'm not 100% sure he's aware of just how bad.

Nur 70: you need to meta me? Please tell me you're not one of those heavily-relying on meta people? sigh...I think from now on it will be my crusade to make newbies pay attention to current games and not meta.

Only scummies and very very noob ones ask for no-lynch in first round...
Im yet trying to decide what you are, but the fact that you ask for a no-lynch when seb456 is showing his scumness so openly is very suspicious to me...


Mantain my vote and my Fos. But want to hear the lurkers a bit before conforming a serious idea...

This part bothers me. First, he said not voting, not non lynching. Voting upon joining the game is optional. see my exchange with Caf. Keeping a vote on someone the whole time is also optional which is obviously what he's referring to, since he didn't vote someone after unvoting me. So here you're putting words into his mouth.

I also don't like your use of the word lurkers. Game has barely begun. Yes, there's a large backlog, but that doesn't mean people who haven't posted yet are lurking. And I think that people on this site rely too heavily on using lurking as a scumtell instead of actually looking for real ones.

Thats why i reconsidered it. I mean if lynching is our only weapon, (accept for Cops and Docs) why should we waste it on a person that doesn't completely understand the concept of the game.
My current aim or goal is to get the suspicion off of me, then I'll try my hardest to remove the mafia.
Why don't you see suicide as a good option for me.

This is false. Our other weapons and voting and talking. And please, don't mention power roles. Any and all power role speculation is BAD.

I leave for a while and this happens

well, now that you're hear, care to make a post that has actual content?

I read through that, and understand how i went wrong.
Nureins, I cant help but feel that u both OMGUSed me and WAGONed me as well.
I mean if I was mafia it would make complete sense, but seeing as I'm not (and only THREE people know that btw) I cant see the point in pointing at me.
I don't think you are mafia but i don't want to change my vote again, its just gonna get me to L-1, or worse.
Anyway I wanna know why you don't want me to suicide but to just be lynched. I really don't wanna die by lynch, because that would mean i had no say in the matter.
It's pretty obvious that if I don't do anything, I'm gonna die.

More appeals to emotion, claiming of townines, misrepresenting Nur's position, asking to die. SIGH.

seb 75: please refrain from making spam posts like this in the future. It is annoying.

Nur, 76: while I agree with the content of this post whole-heartedly, the closing remarks feel very very off. Maybe you're like Muerrto and give absolute newbies too much leeway with the coaching I also see here. Also never step off an attack if you think it is worth attacking.

seb 77: another useless post that comes off as more appealing to emotion and no scumhunting and I don't get the feeling he actually understands Nur.

seb 78: instead of going on and on about how you're going to die, maybe you could start playing? Because opinions do change, you know. And please don't refer to other people as town. I have already commented on this to Chuck. Sharing town reads is usually bad.

[Mirth]

I'm going to double check that.

No response to any of my comments?

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Unofficial vote count, with vote order and all.

serous 1 (cute)
seb 3 (mirth, nur, mr. a)


Nur, I object to you using the term lurkers in the first place. Game opened Weds. It is not less than 48 hours from that, which is less than what is needed for a prod. I think most people just dont have as much time as we seem to. The pace of this game so far is not normal.

and I'm going to go now. when I get back in 4 or 5 hours, I'm sure there'll be another 2 pages to read. SIGH

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/cause I'm anti-suicide

While I generally agree with you, I still think Kuribo should have won for getting out of there before going crazy.

Nur, you still are missing my point. Someone can't be lurking if there has not been a long enough window of oppurtunity to occur. If you asked "lurkers" to post 10 days after game start, it would make sense. Not exactly 2.

Seb, why do you keep proclaiming my and Nur's townishness? Setting up a nightkill?

And I ally with basically no one. Think of this like the X-files, trust no one.

Also I don't like your "just lynch my already" post. You're not even trying. Please actually try to play and let us decide from your actions if thats a good idea or not.

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I do not understand your metaphor.

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Chuck, I am a she and was never at L-1. Also can we please stop mentioning power roles?

as for L-1, I would prefer if you didn't just yet, but if you had done it, I would have unvoted for the time being. We still have some people who aren't yet playing and I want to hear from them. (And town can hammer just as well if Seb is town, btw, because he is rather scummy and some newbies are trigger happy.)

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Dej, I'm aggressive about everything, pretty much. This is not a town tell. This is a matter of playstyle. So don't count me out just yet.

Seb, or you could just try playing. What do you think of the active posters so far? Do you find anyone scummy? Also, shutting up is never a good thing, so Chuck, don't listen to him.

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Eh, I doubt the mod is looking for a replacement for Serous since he did make a filler post.

whether it's justified, I'd say no. I'm a cautious player and drag things out.

I'm also not liking Mr. A's post. Comes off as very superficial.

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This game is moving way too fast...

I would have voted you. Believe me when I say I want to vote you, but the Mafia could hammer if I put you at L-1.

@Mirth- I won't. Also do you think putting him at L-1 is justified yet. I was hoping to hear from Serous(or now his replacement?) to see what they think on the subject?

Putting me in L-1 will help us out if the mafia do hammer. I highly doubt that they are dumb enough to actually double-hammer. If you agree to my fairly open strategy I would suggest that only one person help put me on L-1. Or else it would be pretty pointless.

btw, why say that you would vote if i wasn't on so many. If you think im scum, shouldn't you vote. How can my number of voters influence you to decide otherwise?
That q is to everyone.

As I said and you have obviously not been reading, a absent townie coule hammer or your could self hammer.

Im sorry if i seem superficial but it is only my first proper game so i'm not very good at building arguments or anything yet! and i don't understand most of the abbreviations and stuff.

I don't like you playing the newbie card here.

q meaning question
making a full town decision might not be the best idea coz 2/9 people aren't even true townies. Vote on your own knowledge and thoughts. Not on everyone's. Please decide on what you think is best. If you wanna vote, then vote. If not, then don't. It's that simple.

Yet a townie would not know which 2. It is still better to wait until a full town to see interactions and such not to rush a wagon.

Dej, I'm aggressive about everything, pretty much. This is not a town tell. This is a matter of playstyle. So don't count me out just yet.

Seb, or you could just try playing. What do you think of the active posters so far? Do you find anyone scummy? Also, shutting up is never a good thing, so Chuck, don't listen to him.

Hey Mirth, that sounds very much like a coaching...

Seb has done his first and unique relevant comment during the game. Chuck was too melodramatic with his mail, MFOS -- FOS -- HOS -- blablablabla, repeating arguments previously done by us and later on asking to the ICs (so basically you, due to your activity) if a vote was ok or not. I didnt comment on your first advice coz you could say is an IC answer, but that was enough...this second advice is not anymore an IC advice. And, it is very relevant. And Seb has noted it...

Seb maybe said to chuck "shut up" but the essence of his post was "hey rat, dont jump over my wagon just repeating what everybody said and so ceremoniously..."

If I interpreted correctly, please Chuck explain your behaviour. Notice also how this is correlated to the colourful dramatic interpretation of Mafia vs Town that chucky interpreted already...at the end, the town needs new arguments. If you just buy the arguments of another person, quote that person and say QFT or say which one exactly you buy (i enumerate them to allow so, indeed)

A bit, yes. I don't feel very comfortable lynching for complete uselessness unless some attempt has been made to remedy the situation. My primary objective is to make you newbies think, and I honestly wouldn't want to play in a game with a player like Seb the way he is playing now. Hence trying to get him to at least try to play and stop with the "just lynch me already." I don't see Seb as criticizing Chuck. His posts still feel useless and superficial.

I don't like Mr. A playing dumb in 115

I think that means that she is more experienced than someone else and is coaching the other person .. (i think its also implieng that she is mafia).

He is implying that I might be mafia with Seb specifically. Since you seem to have a grasp of the situation, why play dumb?

@seb. you did a couple of very minimal good comments. But you go on with stupidities about who should lynch you etc. I allow myself this coaching because if I had to decide, Id be very close to lynch you.
do you find chuck suspicious ?

Awww, I see the instinct to try and avoid a total trainwreck has taken you over too.

I didn't understand nurs last post.

summary:
Chuck is not only careful about voting seb. He is also trying to appear careful.
The fact that Mirth coaches him and criticizes the noob player that solidly votes for seb (you) are important details to be noted.

This doesnt mean I consider Mirth scum. Chuck is probably close to a Fos, but right now and among the people who have participated, I would lynch seb without hesitation...

@mr. A: you will never have certainty about suspects. Do not relax ever, go on scumhunting around...make a list for your own with your view on everyone and how scummy they are...

ah. I see I was wrong and I thought you mean I was coaching Seb, which I was most definately trying to.

As for Mr. A, I think his vote is superficial, as he reiterates the issues with Seb and doesn't offer any commentary on anyone else.

Seb 120: is it an actual OMGUS vote or do you have a reason since it sounds like you might.

DAMN, i saw a game that had 30+ pages and was on day one.
how long is this gonna take?

As long as we need it too. this is a commitment.

Well thanks for at least recognizing me nur! I think that mirth chuck and seb are all being suspicious and that dej is just plain stupid! LOL but i actually do agree with nur on the chuck near a Fos. hmmm And i also want to hear from serous, even if he does just post stuff like his last post i think he should be replaced because we cannot figure oout anything about him if he doesn't post!
mm and i also want to hear from cute.without.e more at least if it is just a reason why they dn't post! YEah...

why are we suspicious and dej stupid? Why do you feel the need to reiterate sentiments that have already been expressed multiple times.

@Mr. A: If you have not understood what coaching was, why do you think Mirth is suspicious for that ?

@all: is there anyone out there having a personal opinion on something (Mirth, you do not need to answer). Whatever, different, not commented...please give it and explain yourself...!!!

QFT

Well i think it means coaching (as in coaching a noob mafia) because why would you coach someone else if you didnt know if they were town or not? Thats why i think its suspiciuos

Yay, actual reasoning! what would be your opinion of a player like Muerrto who coaches everyone in newbie games?

Oh ok well i just thought that coaching was sus so ... thats the reason! LOL

don't back down just because someone argues with you. (This would be me coaching again, btw). Coaching is suspicious. So don't ignore it. Just pay attention to who is coaching whom and how.

can the two of you stop spamming? it's hard enough to read backlog without going through spam too. if you want to discuss life, go to the general discussion forum. also, don't wait in people to post with tick tick tick posts less than a day or two apart because they might not be around to see them.

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Dej, nothing else you want to comment on?

unvote:Seb

for the time being. I want everyone here first.

As to agreeing, that depends on how you go about doing it.

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If someone is agreeing without providing their own opinion, then it could be scummy.

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I have already explained why I think it is too early to put anyone at L-1 multiple times. I've gotten sick of repeating myself.

I don't think Chuck deserves an FOS yet, but I am not happy with his action.

Also, Nur, what do you make of me admitting to coaching Seb, since you're focusing so much on coaching?

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You misunderstand my question. I am saying straight out that I was also coaching Seb. With all your emphasis on coaching, why are you ignoring that connection?

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Why are you saying that I'm only giving you advice and not coaching? I've been giving you a lot more advice than him.

Yes, I will vote you again, when I feel that it isn't dangerous. I vote when I want to and no one influences me there.

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For example

seb 78: instead of going on and on about how you're going to die, maybe you could start playing? Because opinions do change, you know. And please don't refer to other people as town. I have already commented on this to Chuck. Sharing town reads is usually bad.

[Mirth]

ok. I'm sorry for putting us in a risky position. I was just getting really annoyed with Seb. With all the scummy things he had done, and then he does an OMGUS vote. This angers me as at this stage you shoudn't be doing that kind of things. I think he is trying to distract us from hie scumminess. Yes I do agree that me voting looked a bit scummy btu I'd really had enough of Seb's actions.

@Nur- Please. Do tell me what you find suspicious.

Voting out of anger is never a good thing.

Nur, 164: I actually see no issue with his upgrading FOS's in his analysis. I know that when I miss a bunch, I might do this. If you ever see me do a PBPA in a game I replaced to, I comment as I read along, and usually throw in comments like "if I was voting, I'd be voting for soandso now." Interesting point however about him forgetting you. That escaped my attention.

ahh, back from a good long-WTF.
8 posts. I wouldah expected more, anyway.
@Mirth

For example

seb 78: instead of going on and on about how you're going to die, maybe you could start playing? Because opinions do change, you know. And please don't refer to other people as town. I have already commented on this to Chuck. Sharing town reads is usually bad.

You even mentioned that you said the same thing to Chuck. If this is the only "Coaching" example you have on me, i would like you to stop spamming with the same "I coached seb as well so he is scum" sorta thing. Its very annoying. Anyway, I would like Chuck to be lynched if I turn out innocent. Umm... have a, great day?

It isn't the only example. Um can you please explain your logic? I coached you so you must be scum? Only way I would know this is if I were scum with you. Why do you feel the need to twist my words around? I'm merely pointing out to Nur that Chuck isn't the only person I'm coaching.

Also setting up lynches in advance is almost certainly *NEVER* protown.

Nur: Actually, it is very very very rare from me to outright say that I'm not scum, regardless of whether I'm scum or town. I could be scum. I could not be.

Anyway, I would like Chuck to be lynched if I turn out innocent. Umm... have a, great day?

Is this an OMGUS, feeling. Anyway why me? Why not anyone else who voted you or found you scummy. I'd just like to know.

No, its not. Its based on my own feeling towards you. This is just insurance for me

IF

i do die, its just SPAM for the time being. Why are you being so defensive. You think i am scum, so my message wont mean a thing if i die. Unless you know my innocence and you don't want to be revealed for the scumbag you really are through someones death-wish. Something tells me that Chucky isn't gonna live much longer than me!

Since you're saying he's your prime suspect, give us a case on him please.

Caf 173: good posting, I totally forgot about the lying quote. Had to go back and look. Lying is almost never a protown move, and should not be done in a newbie game.

Seb: I again ask you for a case on Chuck since you are convinced he's scummy.

Mod: can you please prod Cute and Serous if you have't already. Also can we please get a vote count?

[Mirth]

What exactly are you apologizing for?

Also, we do not need replacements. We need prods. The nonposters still have a couple of days before asking for replacements becomes appropriate. The mod also check in less than 48 hours ago. Geez. Patience is a virtue.

[Mirth]

first, seb its kind of annoying what you do multiple posts like this. Can you please try to condense everything into one post?

back from a nice long sleep.
Lets go
I get what mirth is asking of me, but i have two good reasons
1. I don't have enough information
2. i dont realy know what a case is supposed to look like
i suck at doing essays, they take too long. I really hope that cases don't have to be.
im going to go look for some examples of essays, then ill wait for chucky to do something realy scummy. then ill win:)

What the frak? you'll wait for him to do something scummy then you'll win. This bothers me a whole hell of a lot. You suspect him already, all I ask is for you to explain why you suspect him. Not wait around.

Sooo your whole case is that he was first going on about Serous and then added Cute? (You use the same quote twice and its really confusing.) What exactly is your point. How/why is this scummy? Don't make us fill in the blanks for you. Explain, please.

[Mirth]

Seb you really need to stop and wait for replies before posting another reply. - sorry in the process of reading through just it is annoying when you post 5 or more replies in a row!

Do you have anything you want to add about the current discussion, rather than Seb's posting style.

Seb, thanks for clearing that up. Question for you. Couldn't it also be that if Chuck were scum with Cute, he's be mentioning her less to avoid drawing attention that way?

[Mirth]

Mod: I think you should check the vote count...I unvoted Seb and Chuck is voting him.

Well CLEARLY that is what that vote count says. *halo*

[Mirth]

Chuck: your argument on 190 is farfetched. Maybe he stopped because I (and the mod) have pointed out that if they want to chat, there's always GD. This sounds like it's reaching. Now then, I don't think Mr. A is in the clear, but not because of stopping the chitchat. Rather not really playing.

Dej: excellent point about not being in the clear. I just disagree with you on how much leeway to give newbies.

[Mirth]

Actually, it is very very very rare from me to outright say that I'm not scum, regardless of whether I'm scum or town. I could be scum. I could not be.

My two cents on the matter is that declaring your towniness is largely a null tell. In every post anyone makes they are implicitly claiming to be town, as they want everyone else to believe this. They're hardly going to claim to be scum. So people saying "I'm town" doesn't really irk me, and I find that if they're frustrated enough to say that then they're probably under a lot of pressure and there are much better arguments against them anyway.

Of course, claiming a specific role (as Seb did) is a different matter, and is generally anti-town if done out of the blue.

While I agree with you that everyone does it implicitly by just playing, this is precisely while it bothers me. Since everyone is already trying to make everyone believe theyre town, declaring "I'm town" is repetitive and unwarranted. "Of course you want us to believe you're town. Why are you repeating it"

Chuck: STOP IT! The mod has made his prodding replacement rules perfectly clear. While they are not the most standard (It's usually something like 2-4 to a prod unless the person said he's be away, and then 3 or 4 days after prod until looking for a replacement), they are the mod's rules, and we must follow them. So STOP WHINING ABOUT REPLACEMENTS! Yes, it's frustrating, but these things happen. People occasionally need replacing. Hell, at least this isn't a mini hat reached over 60 pages and endgame and needed replacements. Patience is a virtue, please be patient.

[Mirth]

You're right, it does. This is a learning game. Everybody knows this, and most of the players are brand new. So why play the newbie card? Especially since you yourself acknowledge it is scummy?

[Mirth]

Nur, actually, the patience thing isn't coaching. I admit to coaching when I do it. It's "I'm sick of Chuck whining about replacements". And my comments about patience aren't just at Chuck. I threw one or two your way earlier and some at Seb. But Chuck is just starting to grate on my nerves right now, since he still hasn't laid off like you guys have, and this has become a meta-game issue, since he took his impatience out of thread. Right now, my warnings about patience are reaching the point where I'm getting seriously annoyed, especially since the mod clearly outlined his policies in thread. That is all.

[Mirth]

me needing confirmation from Nureins on ur previous vote, just to make sure my signature is accurate and all. Was your previous vote for me?

Seb, please take your signature down. Stuff that happens in this game while it is ongoing is meant to stay in this game. This isn't a scorecard for the rest of the site to see.

[Mirth]

You miss my point, Seb. We're not supposed to discuss active games out of thread. Your taking your "competition" with Chuck into your sig is not a smart thing to do for those reasons. (Also, its not a competition between who gets the most votes, there is no "score").

[Mirth]

okay then, ill keep it as a text document offline.
I only did it to make everyones lives easier.

This is smarter if you keep it offline. I understand you did it with good intentions, but I'm just saying that it could get you in trouble if you do this sort of thing in the future. When referencing an active game, there's a large grey area of talking too much about it and even if you mean something innocuously, it might be taken the wrong way and involve modkilling or the like. I just want you to be aware of that for the future.

[Mirth]

When you were mentioning the "lurkers," I made it a point to mention that it was too early to throw that term around. Think what you will about coaching, but this right here isn't it.

[Mirth]

Note how I stopped making these comments to you when you stopped misrepresenting inactivity. The issue here is that you are trying to find something that isn't there in my latest comments at Chuck. While impatience can be scummy, ignoring the rules in regards to waiting turns into a non-game issue and whining.

[Mirth]

The mod explain his rules on prodding/replacements (1 week followed by 3 days). Chuck cntinued to complain about Cute and serous not being replaced after this wa explained in thread. My last comments at him refer to this, asking him to stop since it is annoying. You decided to take it as coaching.

[Mirth]

Or maybe you're just making mountains out of molehills since in this case his impatience is related to the mechanics of the game and not the content. I'm not putting his impatience and your's on the same level. I'm pointing out that he isnt the only impatient one, just the only on blatantly disregarding game mechanics.

[Mirth]

Why do you say 2 townies Chuck? I could very well be scum, with Nur even, yet your statement assumes I'm town. Do you know this for a fact?

[Mirth]

I simply have nothing to add since the last time I posted, but I am here.

[Mirth]

Can yu explain what you mean by crapogic? Why is Nur all of a sudden worse than Seb?

[Mirth]

Actually, I'm thinking in this case it means something more along the lines of "if i vote you maybe you'll stop attacking me" but I want to hear him explain it.

[Mirth]

You people only seem to post when I'm off being busy. Catch up now:

Chuck 242: I do not like this post. Trying to pass the vote off as a reaction test bothers me. It seemed serious.

Chuck 246: Now this here is crap logic. Anger is not necessarily scummy and not all scum get angry when voted. You lose. Thank you for playing. Enjoy your year's supply of turtle wax.

Nur 249: I strongly disagree with you. It is too early to be asking anyone for a claim. I also don't like how you assume that everyone will vote from Chuck. The only reason to ask for a claim is L-1. We're still two players short. This really really really bothers me.

Chuck 252: WTH? If you're going to vote him can you explain to us in small clear word what makes him worthy of a vote. Also please refrain from the cursing at other players thing. It is rude.


Seb 254: This post bothers me a lot too. Seb, can you actually play through analyzing posts instead of just making these kinds of emotional statements?

Chuck 256: this reaks of craplogic (he's scum because he's attacking me) and appeal to emotion (wah he's mean) I do not like it one bit.

On the self vote and scumclaim : this is horrible.

future note to all you newbies: this is unfair to everyone in the game. if you don't want to play, ask to get replaced, don't ruin it for everyone else.

I really really really don't like Nur asking outright who Chuck's buddy is. First of all, we do not know for a fact if Chuck is scum, or if he is pulling a Kuribo ala 617, where Kuribo lied to get himself out of the most painful game in existence. Also this is just plain bad sportsmanship. If Chuck is scum (I will be voting him in a bit as I will not risk this situation, I just don't want to end the day 2 players short), whoever his partner is should not have to suffer his childishness.

If Chuck announces his scumpartner, this game will be called off. Just so you all know

Nur, yes that was a critique.

I did a refresh before posting this, and I see Chuck has claimed a scum partner. I do not know whether to buy this or not, but I will be asking the mod to look into canceling this game. Thank you Chuck, you quite possibly ruined it for the rest of us. I hope you are happy.

Thank you, Chuck

[Mirth]

Nur, you can lynch me right now, if you want. Regardless of whether you're Chuck's partner or I'm Chuck's partner or one of the other 6 people here is Chuck's partner, this game is pretty much ruined.

[Mirth]

Actually, Nur, I'd only be the second choice lynch there. He claimed you're his partner. We cannot ignore his scum claim, so we have to lynch him. If he is scum, you would be the most obvious next lynch since he wouldn't have been lying about his own claim. I would be candidate number 2, if it came up that he flipped scum and you flipped town. If Chuck flips town, then we are actually fine and can continue with the game. If Chuck isn't lying and neither you nor I is his partner, this game can also be salvaged. If I am his partner, then it is still playable. But you must know that if Chuck flips scum, you're the logical next lynch even with him backtracking now.

Nur: right now, I ask you to continue to do what you are doing. Do not confirm nor deny.

This game can be salvaged, but Chuck might have destroyed it with his childishness. I PMed the mod. I am considering PMing Flay as well.

Chuck: the damage has already been done. Why would you out a scum buddy? I don't know. It's happened before and I could never understand it then either. Complete childishness maybe

[Mirth]

Hmm, simulpost, no, Nur, I'm not claiming anything. But, the way you're jumping all over me after nothing more than mild FOSes the whole time makes me believe Chuck's claim.

[Mirth]

Logical conclusion, Nur.

[Mirth]

Nur, this isn't a case of strategy. This is a case of possible game breaking. Games have been called off for this in the past. This is a case of the Mod needs to look into this.

And regardless of who the lynch day 2 is, your or me, if that person isn't scum, the other one of us must necessarily die day 3. You and I both need to be lynched if Chuck flips scum. Order doesn't particularly matter, except to the two of us personally.

I'm also going to stop posting now until the authorities look into this mess.

[Mirth]

Nur, I'm not going to defend Chuck. While it's still possible that he may be pulling a fake claim to die and get out of this game, the more he has said, the less I believe this is the case. You are obviously ignoring the fact that that post was written as I was reading backlog, i.e. first reactions to each post in a chronological order. I am indifferent to whether Chuck dies if he is scum and you are his partner, as the game is ruined in that case anyway. I see you're trying to set me up for the next lynch, and I really don't mind. As long as I first get a promise from everyone here after Chuck is lynched and I am lynched, that you are lynched. That is all I ask since I do believe he wasn't lieing the first time and that you have been trying to set me up as his partner from before he claimed scum.

I am not going to vote until there is a mod ruling on this issue. That is all.

And Seb, there's still no reason to swear at people.

[Mirth]

Nur, if you are lynched day 2 and are not scum, then I will not try to stop my own lynch day 3 because I cannot be allowed to live to endgame now that there is enough suspicion on me to cloud actual judgment. If neither of us is scum, we are both still liabilities because of connections to Chuck and these liabilities should not be ignored.

Chuck called you his scum partner. We cannot be sure if he was lying or not but if he turns up scum, can we absolutely under no circumstances ignore it.

[Mirth]

Not a question of evolution, Nur. It comes down to he claimed and his claim cannot be ignored, so I will do now what must be done. Yes, the mod talked.

vote:Chuck

As to partners, I believe that it is in fact you. I do not think Caf or Dej are partners with Chuck, though it is possible that Seb is because of the reactivity of both to one another, but I do not put much stock in that either as that would have had to have been major bussing. I have no opinions of the other 2 as they are not here and I cannot say one way or the other whether one could be a partner (though you earlier pointed out Chuck's mention of Serous, which could become important later.)

[Mirth]

Dej, you think that is its possible for Seb and Chuck to be partners? Why?

[Mirth]

Nur, here you are twisting my words. I stated that I *dont* think Chuck and Seb are partners. I don't see that much bussing going on with newbies that young. Dej said that if I die and come up town, he'll look at Seb next. I clearly asked him why he thinks this.

And Nur, I do think you're Chuck's partner, considering how you keep trying to link him to me. I agree that I probably do need to die now since I could be a problem in endgame if it gets to that, but I think you should die first, that is all.

Oh, and Seb brought something up that I forgot about. Speaking of Mr. A we have not heard from him in a while. (I forgot he was even playing. I'm still not 100% used to the 9 player newbies though I'm ICing a bunch...must say I liked the 7 player better.) In fact, it's been more than a week since we've heard from Mr. A.

Mod: can we get a prod on Mr. A if you havent prodded already?

[Mirth]

Dej, let me try reframing my question. You think I am scum because of my supposed connection to Chuck, yes? Namely early coaching and my reaction to his claim. This is correct, yes? Thus you think that Chuck and I are partners because of this. Would you think I was definately scum if Chuck had not admitted himself to be? Probably not. My question here is this: yes, Seb is scummy and his play has been poor, but do you think that poor play from both of them is enough to connect them as partners? Do you see any other links, like you see with me and Chuck, that makes you think they're scum together?

[Mirth]

Nur, why don't you let Dej answer for himself. I am completely disliking how you're making stuff up out of air now. I have said multiple times now that I DO NOT THINK CHUCK AND SEB ARE PARTNERS. I think you are partners with Chuck, especially considering how you're just making up totally false accusations against me.

Did I coach Chuck? yes
Did I overreact? I don't think so, but you may disagree with this.
Did Chuck buddy up to me? Yes
Have I been trying to forge a link between Chuck and Seb? No, and you'd know that if you actually read my posts.

I am saying that when you lynch me, the next logical step is *not* Seb, as Dej suggests. It is you.

[Mirth]

Nur your job is not to intimidate other people into not speaking. As for coaching, I've admitted it all along. I'm playing as an IC coaching newbies.

As to why Nur, let me try to spell it out a bit more clearly.

First and foremost, Chuck's claim. He claimed Nur and then backtracked. While it is possible he claimed this because Nur was on his back, and not just because he gave up and tried to ruin the game (some people have outted their scum partners without reservations), it is very possible that he is telling the truth that Nur is in fact his partner. Additionally, look at Nur's early attacks on him. Nur's attacks on Chuck at the beginning are trying to link him to me. I fully admit I am coaching, but I am coaching with IC advice. While this may link me to Chuck, the way Nur attempts to forge this link is very bothersome. He won't commit to fullout suspicion yet will make passive aggressive remarks at me. Furthermore, Nur's early "case" against me never sat well. He said it was to start discussion, but I don't think I buy this. He admitted not getting a complete mod-voting meta on me after I questioned him about it, but he also said even if he had, he wouldn't have used all of it, just the parts he cited. The fact that he admitted to not reading the whole thing is what bothers me most, looking back at him. The "trap" he set was incomplete, and he, since he has games under his belt, should have known that. His general misrepresentations of what I have been saying throughout the game also bother me. As is his current attempt to buddy up to Caf, who, to be honest, isn't putting forth an obvtownie game. He is not being scummy, yes, but my no means obv.townie.

Lastly, look at the way that he has been responding to me since Chuck's claim. He is twisting my words around. Even though you clearly understood what I meant by my questions about Seb and Chuck (especially since I spelled it out that I highly doubt they are partners before questioning you), he is trying to assert that I am trying to get Seb lynched instead of myself. This is out and out lying. I have stated time and again that it's between me and him for day 2, not Seb. So I ask you to read over his play again.

While there may be a connection between me and Chuck, regardless of the sort or reason, look at Nur's behavior toward me and toward Chuck.

[Mirth]

I love how you ignore my comments and the fact that I caught you in a lie and blatant attempt at buddying, Nur.

[Mirth]

Hi, sorry for disappearing for 2 days. Life stuff came up. Will read/respond later. Caught up on the easier backlog games first.

[Mirth]

Bah, totally wasnt expecting this weekend to eat up all my free time. Have a bunch of stuff I need to take care of. Apologies to you all

I'll be V/LA until Tuesday

sorry about this. Posting this in all my games

[Mirth]

okay. i am back and doing the read now. i apologize for my recent inactivity. life is kicking my behind so my posting will go way down, though i shall try to post once a day. also, im experiencing a new set of computer issues. my shift keys are broken and to shift i have to use the onscreen keyboard, so capitalization will probably fall out of my posts for the most part. i am sorry for this. will have comments up in like 20 mins.

[Mirth]

nur 341; this is not typical. i have seen cases of people giving up their partners because they are immature newbies, so i will not discount this off hand. also, you can say that chuck is following me all you want, but can you please refrain from calling him my doggie. i find this degrading and insulting. you are attacking what you call wifom with wifom of your own, you know. its also not about the 'case' against me but your method of building it that i am criticizing early on. your use of meta, as someone who should know better, and you yourself act like you know better, here is flawed. it bothers me, especially since the games you mentioned werent even in order. there were games between them where there was a different meta. thus you must have done it knowingly, yet you said you didnt. as to you being 95 percent sure. you say this with one player still missing. how sure are you about them. and you continue to twist my words around. i was not being ambiguous. i clearly stated that i did not think seb and chuck were partners because i do not think either of them would be able to make that kind of bussing plan. as for outting, we shall see. again, after i am lynched, i just ask that you are. you, i think, are smart enough to bus.

seb; he isnt setting you up for a lynch after me. hes saying that im trying to set you up for a lynch instead of me. which im not doing. as to why i waited for the mod. if i were modding and one of my scum outted himself and potentially outted his scum-buddy, i would personally call the game off and do a reset with someone more mature, because i would not want the players to feel like the game was hollow. now then, i am by no means criticizing the mod, as it is his game and not mine, and his word is law here, but i felt it would be best to give him time to make the call on what to do and not rush to a quick lynch, because games hve been called for this sort of thing before.

dej; pressuring scum does not an automatic innocent make. more experienced players have been known to try to get rid of a partner when it looks like that partner is dead weight. sometimes, if one partner is the pinnacle of uselessness its better to just get them killed early on so you get brownie points and they cant screw you up later.

[Mirth]

Nur, actually it sometimes just happens out of the blue, so im not going to throw it away without thinking about it. as to chuck, i think seb was scummier up until chuck outted himself. i still think your analogy is rather insulting. i know your case on me is not related to the meta issue. my case on you is related to the meta issue. It is another example of your word twisting. you say the game will finish. are you positive of this?

my argument about chuck and seb not bussing is not flawed. chuck wasnt being suspicious but he has no experience to speak of and as horribly as seb was playing i highly doubt chuck would consider offing him if they were partners. especially since chuck outted himself. and where did i protect chuck? i threw out ic advice and didnt question him much because i did not find it warranted, but where did i protect him?

[Mirth]

I do not know why Chuck outed himself. I just know that as scum I have never once even considered giving up and will try playing to the last. I dont think your attack on Chuck was the sole contributing factor. I think his impatience might have something to do with it. I decided that I would vote for him [pending mod noncancelation] after the outing. I only perceived him as scummier than Seb after said outing.

My case on you is not based solely on the meta issue. the meta issue is just one more instance of you twisting around words. like you are doing now. that is all

[Mirth]

I have already explained my case. You calling it ridiculous does not actually answer my points. Also, I ask that no one hammers until we get a replacement. That is all.

Also, Seb, I answered your questions. You have nothing to say in response ?

[Mirth]

the quick hammer y'all pulled really bothered me. why did neither of you share your thoughts before hammering? the rest of us are blind on you two now.

zeppo, i don't understand your scum list. why is seb so high if you said you're less convinced of his scumminess as the day progressed.

dej; if scum is smart [or either me or nur], then you are perfectly right here. keeping the two of us alive is the only correct move. what is disturbing is how nur kept saying that scum-me would kill him off at night. this disturbs me because if you, as a much newer player, can understand the dynamic here, nur should have been able to get it long before you. as for killing dead weight partners, well, its been done before. i think nur is probably scum, but im really really really not liking the quick hammer and the no read on the two newest replacements bothers me.

[Mirth]

i still say that chuck's case on seb was warranted given the fact that seb was outstandingly scummy in the first part of the day. my unvote, i am against quicklynches in all shapes and forms. i do not see why you keep bringing this up. i also have and will continue as long as i am alive in this game to coach when necessary. that is all. think what you want.

to attacking the roleblocker mate, your discussion does not take into account chuck's immaturity. you theory also does not take into account unanswered night 0 communications. even if a partner has warned their partner pregame of strategy, this does not take into account that chuck's confession hinged entirely on a lack of sportsmanship and childishness [if he was sick of playing here, he could have asked for a replacement]. this cannot be accounted for even by planning.

[Mirth]

cor; you're forgetting how my main issue with nur is that chuck claimed that theyre scum buddies. this is not something to ignore. if you lynch me, fine. when that doesn't end the game, lynch him. because that is the kind of detail that should not be ignored by any means. chuck told the truth once [i.e. him being scum] and i have a feeling he might have told it again. i'm not going to vote for nur, though, until i hear more from zep and caf.

dej 397; im going to say something that nur will surely take out of context here, but if i were scum, i wouldn't even dream of killing him after yesterday's exchange. to off someone just because they suspect you is poor strategy. especially when theres a good change to get them lynched.

nur 398; i dont understand the part after the second quote. please restate.

cor, i am not lying. here are a few of his references to dying at night

Mirth is not going to NK me tonight !!!
Because she wants to lynch me in day 2 !!!!!!!!

If I die tonight, do not let Mirth to escape. You have one scum. She is the best bet, almost sure. Do not let you be misguided by any claim/manipulation/trick. If any of you have serious doubts that she is scum and you want to debate it, you are welcome. But I guess it is pretty obvious now.

I will write my view at the very moment of starting day 2. Just in case I die, my suspicions are open and clear. And the basics of my case have been also commented. Mirth reaction panicking with how Chucky was giving information is more information.

this is the problem. at first he says i won't kill him. then he goes on to say 'if i die tonight.' and he does this more than once while simultaneously accusing me with the statement. [if he dies, who but i am responsible in his eyes?] why would he keep saying this if he knows im pushing his lynch and hes pretty much totally convinced i'm scum. it does not compute. mentioning his own possible death [repeatedly] is the same as saying that i'll kill him in this case. that is all.

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i will repeat yet again. i did not think chuck was being scummy until he claimed. i also dont particularly care what you think of me. i am just saying it is reckless to ignore the fact that chuck claimed him as a scum partner. lynch me, i dont care either way. but lynch him next. this is a case of better be safe then sorry. if by some miracle he is lynched first and not scum, i would actually encourage a lynch on me next because at this point im a distraction. fact of the matter is, both of us have to die now, unless the first one of us that dies is scum. keeping either of us til lylo is a bad idea.

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zep, my thoughts are thus; i dont have much of a read on you, cor, or caf. this is especially bothersome with caf for me, since the two of you seem to be very active and are giving me good vibes. caf is giving off bleh vibes and has more experience than you both, and should be watched. don't give him a free ride, like some people were doing day 1...i have a feeling he's fence sitting and hes probably suspect number 2 for me. i think nur should be lynched because of what chuck said, obviously. i do not think seb is partners with chuck. i do not see that much bussing from someone as inexperienced as chuck. i dont think dej has been scummy either. and as i said, i dont care if you lynch me, just do not let nur off. chuck claimed theyre partners and it would be idiotic to let him live to end game.

[Mirth]

actually the only people we havent heard from lately are caf and seb and i think seb is vla.

[Mirth]

eh, i suppose i should claim now since i'm at l-1. im vanilla but ya'll arent going to believe that until ya'll string me up. so yeah, i guess hammer me whenever, just lynch nur next so as to be on the safe side and give caf a good once-over.

i would make this easier for ya'll but i dont believe in self-hammers.

[Mirth]

nur is correct, in this situation im dead whatever i claim. as to scum and powerroles, well, im not going to say anything more until this game is over. i will explain why im holding my tongue then too. please no one try to discuss this in thread.

but cor, thats a really scummy question to ask why i dont claim doc if im townie. there is no protown reason to fakeclaim a powerrole. ever. you shouldnt even be considering it.

as for cop claiming, i disagree because the setup could have been a good/rb/townies setup, and it could have allowed scum 2 to get away with a fake claim

[Mirth]

actually, nur, there is a way to play it. do a no-kill one of the nights, force a 4 person lylo, claim a guilty.

[Mirth]

no, cor, in this setup it is possible for there to be an rb without a cop, hence a risk-taking scum player could fakeclaim.

i claimed because it is what is done at l-1. even if its a token claim like the one i made, it is still done.

[Mirth]

except that nur is forgetting to take into account how gullible some people can be and the importance of timing. it is a risky gambit, but it is possible to pull off. [seriously, you sometimes might be surprised with how people are in regards to claimed powerroles, and impatience once won me a game where i pretty much was obviously scum since day 1 in the past]

i just prefer powerroles stay hidden until it becomes completely necessary to come out

[Mirth]

I would advise Caf's eventual replacement to avoid this tactic since Caf has got some suspicion on him right now

Caf is likely townie for most players up to now. "some suspicion" on him is a vague term that does not reflect his current position. Moreover, if the only source of suspicion is the fact that he is not writting in day 2, this can be easily explained. Since october 22nd, he has posted only one 2-line post in all mafiascum. Consistently, he is going to be replaced. Therefore, I do not see at all suspicions around him.

except you're misrepresenting what i said about caf entirely. he has been rather bleh and fence-sitty in his posts, which is why i think he should be at least watched and not written off like you're doing now. unless you know for a fact he's town.

[Mirth]

lurking is never a protown thing to do. what do you think is the best course of action after i am lynched

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i'm not? you're sure of this? hammer me then. and never go off what another player tells you, ic or not. what d YOU think

and can we please not get into politics here.

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cor, you're again forgetting that chuck claimed nur was his partner. this is not something to ignore.

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well if i turn out to be right, i will be gloating. why don't y'all just go ahead and hammer me already since y'all are so convinced im scum.

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im not going to vote myself. i just know that y'all are going to lynch me today regardless. well get it over with already. because all im hearing from you all is how scummy i am, though you really have nothing to base it on past my ic coaching of chuck. zep is the only one even considering being suspicious of other people. you're all wasting the day right now because you've all agreed that you want me dead but you're not actually attempting to critically examine anyone else. yet i'm not being hammered and no one else is calling for a hammer besides me. that means that you're, as a group, aware of the fact that the case against me is without much merit.

but the main thing is none of you are even trying to get anywhere. i have stated my suspicions [nur followed by caf] and most of ya'll have written them off of hand because i must be scum. y'all are so convinced that i'm scum that you won't really talk about who else is scummy. so just get it over with and lynch me if it means getting the game moving.

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no

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yay, actual discussion. this new string of comments does include a large bit of fence-sitting by dev and alleviates a bit of my worry about caf, but not very much.

seb, please explain what your hunch is based on.

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playwise, no. but i will once again say that it is beyond a stupid idea to ignore chucks claim. it is wifom but it is irresponsible to say he must be lying about everything post claim. this is a case of better be safe than sorry.

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if you think so, zep, why arent you hammering me

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...ARGH

first, does anyone want to counterclaim?

second, wth? seb there was absolutely no reason what so ever for you to out yourself if you really are the doctor. considering half the people here think you're suspicious, you would not have been the night kill unless scum was very stupid. you were not going to be lynched today considering i am going to be the lynch. outting yourself unprovoked is pretty much asking yourself to be targeted, meaning that there is no chance for you to stop any kills in the future and that you will die tonight. so why did you claim

third, can you please answer my question about your hunch

fourth, why the unvote, no one has made an intention known to hammer me, and i am obviously not going to hammer myself. i've had ample chance for that already.

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fos; zeppo

unless you are going to counterclaim seb, he may very well be the doctor. we definately have a doctor in this set up.

as of right now;
i claimed vanilla and thus not doctor
caf claimed not doctor
nur said that scum claiming doctor would be stupid, and while i am assume that this is a not doctor claim,

nur, please explicitly say whether you're claiming not doctor

you, zeppo, by not claiming in that post make me suspect that you are also not the doctor, please clarify this. because if you are the doctor and know seb is lying, well then, we have caught scum right there. if you aren't the doctor you have no right to claim this unless you're claiming doctor.

waiting on opinions from cor and dej.

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zep, i must answer your question with another question. there are 7 of us alive. one of us must be the doctor. as of now, 4 of us have claimed 'not doctor' in response to seb's claim which came after a discussion of how fake claiming doctor at this point is suicide. why do you have any reason to believe he isn't telling the truth without any counter claims as of yet.

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your reasoning makes no sense.

i agree that seb has not been playing in a protown manner, but since chuck's death i think its been pretty obvious that seb isn't scum [unless either dej or cor counterclaims]. his interaction with chuck is a testament to this. why are you so insistent on trying to get him lynched.

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...sigh. this game just keeps giving me a headache.

seb, what do you have to say for yourself now?

dej, do you have anything you want to add?

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soooo who did you protect if you didnt protect me, nur, fancy, or yourself.

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Seb and I die, and the game moves on.

Actually, unless someone else claims Doc, then one of you wont have to die, I dont think.

is this a claim then dej

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Seb and I die, and the game moves on.

Actually, unless someone else claims Doc, then one of you wont have to die, I dont think.

is this a claim then dej

nvm. i misread that.

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but theres also the we lynch town possibility...like cor, i cant let go of that

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i see we simulposted.

cor, bit of meta that is pretty true: scum ICs tend to go after other ICs unless they are partners [which is rare]. actually a lot of newbies also tend to go after the most townie looking IC or the one they think won't draw a doc protect. don't know why. so if you choose to believe me, I couldn't care less if you do, but as scum my night 1 kill would have been Caf.

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EBWOP; oh the above holds true unless theres a specific reason that scum-IC wants non-scum IC alive. and wait, nvm, i do know why. we're generally seen as a threat or see each other as a threat.

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cor never mentioned anything about self-protecting. cor has absolutely no motivation to fake claim as that would be suicide.

vote:seb

was waiting n seb's answer, before voting. its not much of an answer. i went back and did a vote count. there are only two votes now. cor and me on seb. this is l-2

mod; can we get an official vote count please when you get the chance

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and you're all forgetting scenerio number 5. corv is the doc, seb has a death wish, the mafia is one of [caf, nur, dej, zeppo].

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eh, regardless of whether or not seb is scum, his move is still game-ruining. because a town victory with scum who just give up is just completely empty.

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i wouldn't. one suicidal townie is manageable. two scum who just give up is just not a game. also, i hate how newbies tend to bail on games when they're scum. its annoying. i mean, i personally hate being doctor, but ive never bailed on a game because i didnt like my role. nor did i go out of my way to ruin a game. its a maturity/respect for other players thing.

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im indifferent at this point

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no one can now convincingly claim doc because no one else countered.

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actually, cor, you did the right thing by claiming because we dont know if seb is scum or just game ruining. if he's a townie, we would still have two chances to lynch correctly. i also dont think seb is going to contribute anything else even remotely helpful at this point.

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that is a lynch. mod isnt around on weekends

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...then why didnt you say this in your posts after your claim and cor's counterclaim.

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actually, i don't see anything about not talking in twilight, unless i'm going blind. his being against me will have nothing to do with the nk at this point. i love how you're back to your certainty that im scum nur.

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ive actually never yet seen a mod who allows twilight talking to ban the lynched player from also talking in twilight.

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zep, dej, question for the two of you. why should you not be considered scum

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wait so are you saying that even seb wasnt counterclaimed he should have been lynched

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caf; i picked those two because i was leaning town on both of them, if you're noticed my previous comments as to where my suspicions actually lie. i wanted to see how they'd respond to a completely ridiculous question that doesnt have a correct answer.

dej, you are completely correct. i actually have no reason at all to suspect you. just wanted to see how you reacted. you passed as far as i'm concerned.

zeppo, your reaction bothers me however. why would you think seb was fakeclaiming before a counterclaim when a counterclaim was very very unlikely.

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caf, who is your prime suspect today

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if its me why dont you vote me and why not launch an attack on me from the starting gate like nur

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i have no objection. i take it youre voting for me, yes

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why, dej. how does my dying in any way kill future scum hunting. voting nur without having an argument as to why bothers me lots.

now seriously, can we just get on with lynching me already because you all seem to agree i must be scum yet you're all stalling. which is what bothers me. why stall if im obviously scum. what do you have to gain from it

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well before you hammer me; my revised opinions

my top suspects are caf and dej considering how they both have been stepping around voting me for two days now. still not happy with nur [i still think a scum claiming partner should never be ignored, but considering tomorrow will be lylo, i don't suppose it matters as much]. still not happy with zeppo either.

actually, zeppo, why are you so reluctant to hammer me. why do you feel like leaving it to caf. caf said he thinks i should die, so whats stopping you

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well goodluck in lylo. because i'm not scum

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Dej, congratulations, you were great. Nothing I can really comment on except that I'm impressed with how you kept your cool with Chuck. I still say Nur should have been policy lynched, and I don't understand why you NKed him. That was weird.

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Policy lynch because of his claim. As I have said. I don't understand why Dej NKed you though.