Newbie 661 - GAME OVER

[Kairyuu]

/confirm

[Kairyuu]

Due to unforeseen circumstances, my access to a computer will be extremely limited at best until Friday.

[Kairyuu]

I just read through what's happened so far and here's what I'm getting:

Dynamo hasn't really done anything scummy yet. He started with a random vote (on me) and (somewhat unusually, even in a newbie game) was forced to defend himself in the random voting stage. Some people seemed to think that his defense made him scummy. I do not agree. His OMGUS vote against Nto was a bit odd, but in all likelyhood that was just a bit of noobishness on his part. On the lookout just in case.

minor FOS: Dynamo

Slayer originally came off as the most scummy to me because of his demanding explanation from Dynamo right away in the second post, but he didn't really raise any red flags for me since then, even speaking against a quicklynch when Dynamo was put at L-2. The only thing that bothered me about that was that he said a quicklynch was a bad idea but then didn't pull his own vote off. For that he gets a few more points in my book than Dynamo's OMGUS.

FOS: Slayer

And then there's Spooky. He is by far the scummiest player to me thus far. He first voted STD because STD placed a random vote in the random voting stage. That alone would only get him a few scum points in my book. However, he then uses a rather scummy tactic of using post times to justify vote hopping from STD to Dynamo, putting him at L-2. I think he was reaching in an attempt to jump on the newly formed wagon. The combination of jumping on a random vote, reaching horribly to 'post times' of all things, and vote hopping lead me to

Vote: Spooky

And now to the questions:

@Dynamo: Why did you OMGUS vote Nto? Did you have any reason beyond the fact that he voted for you?

@Slayer: Why, if you were worried about a quicklynch of Dynamo, didn't you pull your own vote off of him and take him down to only 2 votes?

@Spooky: Do you have any concrete reasons to vote for Dynamo other than his posting times? Also, can you explain why

you

would jump from STD, who you found scummy for his random vote, to Dynamo, who there is the early stages of an unfounded wagon on?

[Kairyuu]

Sorry for the double post, but in all likelyhood I won't be able to get to my computer until midafternoon tomorrow. So I'm not lurking, I just won't have access.

[Kairyuu]

None of these arguments or bandwagons make any sense and are all really, really stupid.

Ok Haterade, can you elaborate on that a bit? From what I have seen most people here are making an actual effort to get some sort of discussion going. If you don't like the current arguments then maybe you want to share your own, rather than just pointing out that you think they are 'really stupid'.

Contribute something instead of complaining.

FOS: Haterade

for complaining about where the game is going but not trying to do anything about it.

I'm content with Slayer's response to my question and will remove my FOS on him for now because he took dynamo out of danger of a quicklynch

Dynamo's reasoning makes sense so i'll take the minor FOS off of him as well.

Im still happy to sit on my spooky vote until he can convince me to remove it.

[Kairyuu]

Kairyuu wrote:
Dynamo hasn't really done anything scummy yet. He started with a random vote (on me) and (somewhat unusually, even in a newbie game) was forced to defend himself in the random voting stage. Some people seemed to think that his defense made him scummy. I do not agree.

His OMGUS vote against Nto was a bit odd

, but in all likelyhood that was just a bit of noobishness on his part. On the lookout just in case. minor FOS: Dynamo

Why are you FoSing him when you agree he hasn't done anything scummy? This doesn't make sense.

I apologize if my wording was a bit off. What I meant was that Dynamo hadn't done enough that I found scummy to put more than put a minor blip on my scumdar with what appeared to be an OMGUS vote (see bold in quote). That is why I gave him a (minor) FOS. And once he explained himself, I removed it.

[Kairyuu]

Ah. I just noticed. Spooky, you're at L-2. You might want to start explaining yourself. And quickly, as you may have noticed that there is one person ready to vote for you if you can't explain your actions properly.

I don't think that its quite time for a claim yet, considering that you haven't gotten to L-1, but if you get another vote then you'd better have the best argument ever or you may just be dying soon.

@Everyone else: If Spooky gets to L-1, please do not hammer until he has had a chance to explain himself, I have read too many games where the D1 lynch happens before the lynchee got a chance to say anything and it doesnt often turn out well.

Actually, I have a better idea. If he gets to L-1 I will pull my vote until he can explain and if people still want to lynch him I will drop the hammer myself. That way I'm the one who is at fault if he turns up town (which I highly doubt he will as he seems to have disappeared as soon as people started voting for him).

[Kairyuu]

@STD: It's a precautionary measure, an attempt at avoiding a quicklynch. My reasoning is that if one of the lurkers (Headbuddy/Haterade) were to pop up when he's at L-1 and vote him to make it seem like they were participating, they would accidentally drop the hammer too soon, cutting off Spooky's chance to defend himself. If I pull my vote and this happens, he still ends up alive for the moment.

I only want to take this measure because I have seen too many games where that exact situation occured and the town mislynched (Newbie 588, Day 1 for example).

[Kairyuu]

I just looked back at the 'case' against Spooky.

He's the most obvious town player out of the entire bunch. All of you voting for him will be ashamed if he gets lynched.

And yet, you still haven't offered anything concrete. The fact that you're so sure that Spooky is town could mean one of three things:

1. He is, in fact town, and you know it for sure, implying that you are scum trying to appear concerned over a wagon you are not part of. This would give you the possibility of pointing fingers at everyone who votes Spooky tomorrow if he turns up town.

2. He is scum, and you are his partner. This would be a bit more risky for you, because if you fail to prevent his lynch and he turns up scum you would be targeted quickly for bussing.

3. You actually have no idea whether he is scum or town because you are town. You can't think of an argument, so you ignore the calls for some real contribution from you and stick with the shots at everyone else's intelligence. This is anti-town.

With any of these three possibilities, the fact remains that your behavior is anti-town and you need to get some real information out into the open.

Also, using my above points as a basis, I am upgrading my FOS to a

HOS: Haterade

[Kairyuu]

Ok. It's been over 24 hours since anyone posted. I assume that this is due to the fact that we have several lurkers at the moment who have no desire to add fresh insight to the discussion, or, in the case of Spooky, explain themselves.

Therefore, since three people meet the requirements,

Mod, could you please prod Spooky, Headbuddy, and Nto.

Also, Haterade, post something useful. Soon. You're being just active enough to avoid a prod but contributing absolutely nothing. Please do something useful.

@STD: Could you elaborate a bit more on what you find suspicious about my explanation so that I can attempt to allay said suspicions?

[Kairyuu]

I just looked back at the 'case' against Spooky.

He's the most obvious town player out of the entire bunch. All of you voting for him will be ashamed if he gets lynched.

And yet, you still haven't offered anything concrete. The fact that you're so sure that Spooky is town could mean one of three things:

1. He is, in fact town, and you know it for sure, implying that you are scum trying to appear concerned over a wagon you are not part of. This would give you the possibility of pointing fingers at everyone who votes Spooky tomorrow if he turns up town.

2. He is scum, and you are his partner. This would be a bit more risky for you, because if you fail to prevent his lynch and he turns up scum you would be targeted quickly for bussing.

3. You actually have no idea whether he is scum or town because you are town. You can't think of an argument, so you ignore the calls for some real contribution from you and stick with the shots at everyone else's intelligence. This is anti-town.

With any of these three possibilities, the fact remains that your behavior is anti-town and you need to get some real information out into the open.

Also, using my above points as a basis, I am upgrading my FOS to a

HOS: Haterade

How about

4. I don't actually know for sure whether or not he is mafia, but I do know that any case made against him to this point is absurdly wrong.

Ok. So you're saying that you choose number 3? This must be the case, as you have still failed to provide any sort of answer to the crucial question of "Why?" You are being very childish; essentially telling us to accept your assertions "because you said so."

Please

stop attempting to spoil the game for the rest of us with your vitriolic invective and start playing the game properly. I would ask that you please include your reasoning as to why the case against Spooky is "absurdly wrong" in your next post.

@STD: I can see how that would make sense; a scum attacking his/her scum partner is actually a rather good strategy that I can see being quite effective at throwing suspicion off of a scum. However, and this may be WIFOM but it makes sense to my brain, I can't see this as a wise strategy for scum to pursue on D1 in a Newbie game because:

1. There are only two scum, so that cuts the group in half.
2. The town gets the advantage of having three days to catch only one scum (a job made even easier assuming they have a cop).
3. The action would garner a large amount of attention, which a lone scum most certainly would not want when he/she is outnumbered six to one (assuming D2 with a NK on N1).

So, in other words, I cannot successfully argue my innocence because I have nothing concrete to provide, only hypothetical speculation. I will say that if Spooky turns up scum (assuming we do lynch him) I would not consider lynching me on D2 to be a bad idea, we do have two mislynches after all.

If he turns up town (again, seriously doubt it, especially since he still hasn't returned to explain himself after four days of being accused) then I'm clueless. I understand the (well founded) suspicion that would be cast upon me for hammering a townie, but at the same time I can't see going down without fighting to prevent it being my fault that LyLo sets in with the scum team still intact. (Of course, If I were scum you would expect me to say the same thing, so its really whether or not you believe that I am town that determines how you read that last bit.)

And here I thought this game was ridiculously simple from reading through other newbie games. It's an interesting and entertaining experience playing with a group that (for the most part) is rather intelligent, and having ICs that actually

participate

rather than sit around is also helpful.

[Kairyuu]

Why are you assuming there's NK on N1? It's more likely that the lone scum will still be able to kill.

Yes, it is rather likely, but not entirely assured, so (in my opinion) it must be classified as an assumption (blame my Physics teacher) due to its occurance not being entirely certain.

On the same note, I only included that bit to show the minor calculations I used to arrive at my numbers (I'm a Senior in high school, I show my work, its a habit).

[Kairyuu]

@Nto: Yay! Nto's back

I have a sneaking suspicion that Spooky isn't planning on coming back, or else he would have responded to our calls for explaination days ago.

I wouldn't classify Haterade as vehemently defending anyone, as he hasn't made any assertion that he was willing to (or capable of) back up with anything concrete.

@Slayer: I'm almost positive that Spooky is scum, but his reaching is the least of my worries right now. I'm more focused on his vote hopping and then disappearing when challenged on it.

Haterade however I can't get a read on, as he hasn't done anything concrete yet. I am suspicious of him because of his not backing his posts with evidence, but I don't want to say he's scum because he hasn't actually given off any scum tells yet.

@STD: I just thought of something. Judging from your reaction you might have interpreted my use of NK as No Kill, rather than Night Kill as I intended it. I was assuming a Night Kill on N1, not a failure to kill.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. I am extremely irritated now. I just spent the last two hours typing up a post and then it gave me a login page when i hit submit. I have to go to work now but I will attempt to recreate it when I get back.

Heres the general gist:

1. Address Haterade's attack on the Spooky case.
2. Address Haterade's accusations of my opportunisticness (if thats even a word).
3. Comment on Haterade's suspicions of Slayer and Macavenger.
4. Question Haterade's resoning (I liked this bit the best ).
5. Adress STD's suspicion of Macavenger.
6. Question STD's reasoning.
7. Ask Macavenger to post his thoughts
8. Ask Slayer and Dynamo if they know each other outside of the forum (I have reasons to think so, but it has no weight regarding the game. I'm just curious). You two can answer while I'm at work if you want and I'll explain my reasoning when I get back.
9. Offer everyone cookies (not really).

[Kairyuu]

Ok. I'm back from work, starting on the big post now. Before I do that I'll just explain my odd question. It was actually the mini theme you are both part of. I noticed that you were both signed up for the same mini theme at the same time as you were part of this game. Just thought it might mean you knew each other before joining this site.

As I said before, I was just curious, it holds no weight with me in regards to this game either way. Thanks for responding to the stupid question I couldn't help asking.

[Kairyuu]

@Haterade: I would first like to thank you for finally posting some content, even if I disagree with most of it. I will also remove my HOS on you because you have finally provided what we have been asking you for.

You started with this:

First, note that this is the 40th post of the game and everyone is still in random voting stage.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Even assuming that some of the people who were active at that point were voting as if it was the random voting stage, Spooky was not one of them. He even stated:

I didn't random vote.

I voted for Save the Dragons because he didn't have a reason for his vote.

Therefore, to Spooky, it was not the random voting phase because he was justifying his votes.

Now onto what you claim that the case against Spooky actually

is

.

The entirety of this case though is just total hogwash. Here are the criteria:
1) Spooky voted for someone because they voted for someone in the random voting stage.
2) Spooky uses posting times to justify a vote switch to someone else.

1. Point one is spot on. This is what made me look a bit closer at him.
2. The post times are not as important as the fact that he was vote hopping in order to get on the beginnings of a bandwagon. The post time usage is merely an example of reaching, which isn't all that suspicious on its own.
Now for what you missed.
3. The vote hopping, which I mentioned in number two.
4. The fact that, as soon as he was challenged, he disappeared from the game completely and has failed to respond to calls for explanations.

Now to the next paragraph. I would first like to point out that Spooky did not, in fact, acknowlege anything, because as soon as he was accused, he stopped posting.

So I'm opportunistic? Based on your reasoning, it's possible, but not likely. But that is only if you assume that I have no basis for my argument, which I disagree with. And even assuming that I originally was reaching somewhat (I don't consider quoting three scummy actions in four posts reaching) Spooky incriminated himself further by not responding when questioned, so

he

obviously thought that my argument had decent backing.

Now to your argument against Slayer. You say he is bandwagoning. How can he bandwagon when there is no wagon to begin with? There was only one vote at that point.

And now for Macavenger. You find him suspicious because his post made it sound as if he had developed a case against Spooky on his own, even though it had already been stated. This is an odd thing to say when most people would consider someone scummy when all they do is follow the crowd and

don't

try to provide their own take on things. Also, I just reread his post, and his case against Spooky seems rather original to me, even though it uses the same general points.

And now to my favorite part. I get to point out an extremely interesting thing that I noticed in your case against Macavenger. You said that you consider it a major scum tell when someone uses another person's argument and tries to make it seem original (I can see where you're coming from but I don't think its entirely true). According to your own criteria, this case is even weaker than the case against Spooky. You see one thing, in one post, and use it to say Macavenger is scummy. I used three things, over the course of four posts, and added a fourth thing due to the lack of subsequent posts, and you called it stupid and weak.

I must ask this question then: Why is your argument against Macavenger valid while mine against Spooky isn't, even though mine has more backing, shows a trend, and features a more widely accepted scum tell? (Note: I am not discounting your argument, and will even go so far as to place a

FOS: Macavenger

in addition to questioning him at the end.

@STD: You make a good point. One post out of four with any content does smell a bit scummy, but in my opinion it isn't enough to warrant a vote, just a FOS and a question or two.

Now for my question to you: Why is Macavenger scummy enough to warrant a vote when Haterade has done virtually the exact same thing and you think he's town (this last one was the only one so far with anything other than 'you guys are all stupid, and so are your arguments')?
I'm not at all suspicious of you, I just want to know your reasoning on the matter, as it strikes me as slightly quirky.

@Macavenger: Haterade seems to think that you took my argument and tried to make it seem as though you came up with it on your own. What's your take on that? Also, could you provide your opinions on the events that have occurred since you voted for Spooky?

[Kairyuu]

@Haterade: Very well. Do your worst. I will explain myself the best I can. I'm surprised no one considered me a suspect sooner. I haven't exactly kept a low profile.

@STD: That's all I was looking for, just needed to see your reasoning. Thank you.

@Headbuddy: Care to post some content? Or to explain your vote? A vote unaccompanied by reasoning at this point in the game doesn't make you look all that great.

[Kairyuu]

Sorry for the double post, but am I right to expect that you will have a response to the question I posed to you in this upcoming post Haterade? Because calling me scum doesn't explain why Your argument is valid basd on the same criteria that mine is invalid.

[Kairyuu]

You have got to be kidding me. It happened again. I spent 4 hours typing up a MASSIVE post, and now its gone. Plus I'm probably going to be grounded when I get back from work. I'll say what I can now, but I may not be able to defend myself from further accusations for awhile.

1. Slayer: You are contradicting yourself in an attempt to lynch Spooky but disentangle yourself from his lynch. This is scummy. More scummy than what Spooky has done.

unvote

and

vote: Slayer

2. Haterade: Your argument is total WIFOM and is baseless. I had a long argument for you but I don't have time to rewrite it. STD can probably do it though.

I'm sorry I can't get the original post up, and that I may not be back for (probably) about a week. Please don't replace me, I will be back when I'm not grounded (assuming I do get grounded).

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Apparently I'm not grounded (yay) so I can post. I'll get a condensed version of my long post up soon as well as address Lindisfarne's post. It'll be up in under an hour (I hope).

[Kairyuu]

We'll start with Spooky:

I do not like the concept of replacements. Let me get that out into the open right away. I still find him scummy for my original reasons for voting for him, regardless of the reason he stopped posting. I removed my vote because Slayer made the same scummy mistake for the second time. But I'll get to that in a bit.

Now to Haterade:

STD got most of the points in my argument, but I'll point out what he missed.

This is all fairly obvious stuff everyone should already notice, but just listen to the caution here. He wants to make sure that nobody does things like lynch Spooky, because god forbid Kairyuu thought he was scummy but being scummy I guess isn’t a good enough reason to lynch someone.

“I think spooky is scum, but don’t lynch him.”

That level of caution cannot possibly be genuine. This post is where I think Kairyuu totally slipped up, because I can’t possibly fathom thinking that someone is scummy but not wanting to lynch them under every single circumstance. Hell, I’d be happy at this point if Kairyuu got lynched – I think he’s scum.

See the bold. Don't lynch him until he had a chance to say something. that is what I said. I know that STD pointed this out, but I felt the need to reiterate. Keep in mind Haterade, I was willing to

hammer

him.

This post is just defensive and I don’t really want to respond to it because there’s no content to respond to. Just word after word after word when you could have just said “I disagree” 20 times and we would have left it at that.

I actually laughed when I read this. You actually think I would do that (or that it would be a good idea/the same thing)? If I merely said that I disagreed with you repeatedly, I would be playing like you (not backing anything I say up with anything), and this is not an intelligent play-style.

Your entire argument is based on WIFOM, the entire thing. I see nothing to defend against because it is baseless.

FOS: Haterade

for blatent WIFOM argumentation.

And now onto Slayer:

might it not be better in this case to go ahead and lynch spooky than to bring someone new in?

I'd rather see spooky lynched and be wrong, than be right about spooky and have his replacement throw us off track.

This is you pushing for an immediate lynch before we finally get some response from the potential lynchee. I can't argue against this because I have been pushing for Spooky to die for 3 pages thus far. I still think he was scummy, and advocate major further investigation of Lindisfarne over the course of the rest of the game.

I'm not saying a rush to lynch would be a good thing

Right, sure you're not. This is the major contradiction I voted you for. It makes you look like you are trying to push the lynch as hard as you can but at the same time trying to disassociate yourself from guilt if he ends up getting lynched. Only scum would need to do this. A real townie who is so sure someone is scum would have no problem with having the lynch go through, no matter how it may look. Keep in mind that I was willing to kill Spooky myself with a hammer (vote) until you decided to paint a big red "I am scum" on your forehead.

This is the second time you have tried to detatch yourself from a potential lynch you were part of. I distinctly remember

this

from the Dynamo wagon:

that said I wouldn't want to see anyone get too many votes at this time,
speed lynching is bad for the town. we need alot more discusion before we string anyone up. and besides its not like we're even close to dead line

Same deal here. You attempt to detatch yourself from the wagon, but don't actually back off, as if you hope to say you tried to stop the lynch but people didn't listen to you. I will mention it again. Only scum need to detatch themselves like this.

On an unrelated note, I appreciate the fact that you consider me an experienced player. I am not. This is my first game of mafia ever.

Finally, Lindisfarne:

In the modes of this game I've played in real life, you rarely, if ever lynch on the first day.

Ok. Games on Mafiascum are very different. If you haven't read any, they are quite interesting and I would suggest Newbie 588 if you want to see a perfect example of this. True, they lynched Town on D1 but the lynch gave enough information to kill scum on D2.

Another thing I would like to say: Shame on you townies. Did any of you stop to actually look at spooky's posts? He has 8 posts so far on this website, all from this one game.

And that matters why? It has no relevance to the game we are in. We should be using information we have gathered from the game thread, not from the site activity of a player. For all we knew, he was lurking to avoid responding.

I'm really disliking Kairyuu's game style (he is one of the most aggressive ones here) and have several warning flags over it

Agressiveness is a scumtell now is it? To each their own I suppose, but I consider it necessary to be agressive in order to force scum to slip up due to heavy pressure.

I do agree with you in saying haterade's comments are pretty invalid

Thank you.

Previously, I was thinking you, and Slayer to be the mafia

Interesting theory, but I see you fail to provide a reason for this assumption. I think you might want to explain why I am scummy (besides agressiveness, which in itself isn't exactly a convincing argument).

It would of been better in the mafia's case to stick to getting spooky lynched, and not risk having a replacement come in that may complicate things

You are exactly right. But in my opinion Slayer is more dangerous to the town at the moment. He is giving much more distinct scumtells than Spooky was.

I want to know more of your thoughts about slayer, if you don't mind?

See area regarding Slayer above this.

Ok, that's about it for now. Sorry it took longer than expected, I didn't expect it to end up this extensive.

[Kairyuu]

I was surprised that Slayer thought I was experienced. This is just freaky. All I've been doing is making arguments based on how I think.

But onto the real content.

If Spooky/Lindisfarne is scum, I think Haterade, Dynamo or Nto could be scum as well. Haterade has been adamant about Spooky's towniness the entire game. I mentioned that this was risky if he was scum, but he may have been taking a big risk in the hopes of appearing town. Both of the second two claimed that they agreed with the original argument against Spooky, but both also said they would reserve judgement on him until he could explain. While this may be town concerned over a quicklynch, it may also be scum concerned over pushing a partner closer to a lynch. This is just speculation of course, I have no case other than reserving judgement while agreeing with the argument (Dynamo and Nto) and defending a potential lynchee (Haterade).

If Slayer is scum, I have no leads at the moment. I only just put two and two together that Slayer was acting rather scummy. I will need to reread the entire game in order to find suspicious interactions. I will post more on this bit sometime tomorrow morning.

[Kairyuu]

Grr. STD, you took my opening line.

I'll start with what I promised yesterday, just because that part's shorter.

Potential scumbuddy for Slayer. I see Dynamo as a possibility for one reason, and one reason only. Distancing. As both of them are new players (well, most of us are), seeing the use of distancing as being a good strategy to keep from being associated (I know I read it somewhere) may have caused them to jump the gun and try it immediately, rather than wait until later in the game when there is more to go on. This could also explain Slayer's behavior on the Dynamo wagon. He called to stop a quicklynch to avoid it being his fault that his partner was lynched D1, but was too afraid to hop off the wagon as soon as it started heating up.

Please note that this, like my other part, is merely speculation and doesn't amount to much in the line of suspicion yet. Further rereading will be needed.

And now to respond to Lindisfarne.

First I'll mention something that struck me as extremely irritating (as Haterade did something similar earlier). I never voted for STD. I have made two votes all game. One for Spooky/you and one for Slayer very recently. Please check your facts before you make accusations. I haven't voted (or FOSed him) because I have seen nothing to warrant such suspicion yet. There is no doubt that I will find

something

to attack him for in the future, but it hasn't surfaced yet, so I currently see him as an intelligent discussion partner of indeterminate alignment. Have a problem with that, then vote one of us (with a

good

reason, unlike some people). Now to your post.

wondering who may or may not be the partner to a person who may or may not be mafia will get you nowhere, and should be saved until we have our first mafioso lynched.

Ok. This doesn't sit right with me. Now why is that? Oh, right, this bit from your first post:

I was thinking you, and Slayer to be the mafia.

I believe that goes beyond speculation of partners. Lookie lookie. the replacement is acting scummy, just like the replacee.

FOS: Lindisfarne

for contradictions in your argument.

Just seems as if you two are ganging up on people.

How exactly are STD and I ganging up on people. We have not had votes on the same people at all in this game. The only person we "ganged up on" was Haterade for his poor argumentation. And neither of us even FOSed him (until his last post that reeked of WIFOM), because he was at least trying to provide some input to help the town.

This is MAFIA. You should question EVERYONE's innocence. That is the point. Not questioning someone is utterly idiotic for a townsperson, or a damn spotlight for a goon

Yes you should. As you mentioned earlier, we

have

, in fact, questioned each other on several occasions. Now I can't speak for STD, but at this point his answers to my questions have satisfied my curiosity for the moment, but if he does anything else that makes me question him I will not hesitate to just because I don't find anything to question about him right now.

Also, on a related note; you say that you should question everyone at all times. By that logic you should be questioning Dynamo, Nto, Headbuddy, Haterade, and Macavenger in both of your posts thus far. And in the same way, you said Haterade rings town to you. I thought you said you couldn't trust anyone.

I'm asking everyone to look through the past 5 pages, and read over both STD's and Kairyuu's comments, with the mentality that they are a mafia team.

And here you go again looking for scumbuddies. You seem to think that you are above your own suggestions. And, as Haterade (or you) will probably try to call me out for pointing out possible scumbuddies myself and then attacking you for it, I will say now that I have no problem with speculating scumbuddies, but you stated yourself that you

do

.

The ones who are quick to join bandwagons, but otherwise stay quiet, and the ones who are vocal, attempting to become something akin to

leading voices in the day's proceedings

Leading voices are necessary for the town to do anything productive. If you think that anyone who tries to scumhunt aggressively or lead discussion is scum, then of course you will be suspicious of STD and me. However, if both of us were inactive and didn't try to get discussion going, I could conceivably see this game still being on page two or three with no progress made at all towards catching scum. If being seen as suspicious is the price of keeping the game active and finding the real scum, I am perfectly willing to let you and Haterade call me suspicious.

I would also like to note again, mentioning the proposed collaboration between STD and Kairyuu is in no way a vote towards either of them, or even a FOS. It is just a few things I've noticed and wanted to bring up, trying to keep everyone with an open mind.

Wow. You go on and on with "this behavior is suspicious" and "look at it as if they were scum" and your whole argument leads up to you saying that we aren't scummy and that neither of us deserves a vote or FOS. Well in my book that counts as the same thing that Slayer is doing, only a bit more intelligently played. You want us to be voted, but are unwilling to put yourself on the wagon as one of the voters. This is scummy. Quite scummy. I will therefore upgrade my FOS to a

HOS: Lindisfarne

.

@STD:

OMGUS FOS: STD

I couldn't resist.

Granted, I stupidly answered for him rather than let him respond to the logical fallacies on his own

Sorry about that. I was entirely certain that I was going to be banned from using my computer. But I did at least add my own points when I was able to get back on.

[Kairyuu]

Hold on. I just reread part of my post and it sounds bad. The 'other part' i mention in the first section of my post is referring to my other scumbuddy speculation post, not the part of the post regarding lindisfarne.

[Kairyuu]

@Lindisfarne: Interesting. I think I may have misread you Lindisfarne (annoyingly long name, anything we can call you that's shorter?). I had figured that you would shake your fist and try a different approach when challenged about your arguments. I'm glad you haven't and that you are still willing to press the point (although hopefully you will provide a better argument this time).

I'm especially interested in seeing how I confirmed your suspicions. All I saw was your unfounded attack crumpling under a bit of analisis. However, if this is about me being aggressive I am going to be irritated, and you calling me out for aggresiveness is not going to stop me from attacking your scummy behavior. I think you have a reasonable likelyhood of being scum. I push for information, hard if necessary. I'm not afraid of you just because your defense amounts to a counterattack agaisnt aggressive behavior. I am naturally aggressive when it comes to debate. If you don't like it, or feel threatened by it, too bad. If that isn't what you were going to point out then I apologize for my rant, but the point remains valid.

I am also quite curious to see what bait STD took of yours, as to me his post just looked like he debunked everything you tried to hit him with.

[Kairyuu]

I will preface this by saying that, Lindisfarne (from here on LF), I like that you are trying to promote discussion. Unfortunately, I do not agree with much of what you have said.

To start things off. I would like to make a flat out apology. Post number 70, I believe it was on page three. You had a short post, after which haterade posted a rather lengthy post. At the end, it said "For a bit of an emotional response VOTE SAVE THE DRAGONS. Haterade has no avatar so I failed to notice it was no longer your topic. It was also a bit late when I was finishing with that, and my mind was a slightly foggy. I am sorry for the confusion.

Thank you. I find it rather amusing that your mistake is caused by misreading a post by the one who made the first mistake.

Also notice, that was my early speculation, looking into the game BEFORE I WAS EVEN ACCEPTED. Notice how I said Was, past tense? Also, that first post, did I vote for, or even point a FOS at you? No. You two were the ones that stuck out the most to me, which I have already gone into. Would you like for me to reword it for you?

"Kairyuu and Slayer were the most suspicious people to me"

Happy? Likely not, but oh well. I see no real reason to defend against this, since I was just being vocal about my suspicions. Pardon me for playing the game. (oh dear, STD's sarcasm is rubbing off on me xD)

Actually, your rewording works perfectly fine for me. I will not question you on this particular occurance any more.

As for the ganging up remark, that was mostly referencing you and STD seeming to rip apart haterade's argument. I will point out though, that last I check, both of you are pressuring slayer, leaning more towards him.

Ah. But you see, neither of us voted Haterade, because Haterade seems to be town, but with poor argumentative skills. All we did was attack what I think (and STD must agree, because he had the same ideas I did) were major holes in his theories. We 'ganged up' on him for valid reasons.

We are both pressuring Slayer, yes. But to different degrees, and for different reasons. I feel that the case I have against him is strong enough to warrent a vote. STD seems to feel that his only warrents a FOS until further notice. I seem to recall that you also have him FOSed. We all have valid reasons for suspecting Slayer to be scum, but yet you find it suspicious that people can be suspicious of the same person. By that logic, not only should you find yourself suspicious, but any time one person makes a case against another, and a second person also makes a case, even if they make the cases independently, they are both suspect according to you. This is poor logic, plain and simple.

I have asked about headbuddy, already. since S/he has only posted TWICE, I have nothing with any actual logic to go by there.

I have already asked about nto's opinions already in my first post. Still waiting the response. Dynamo and Macavenger seem awfully quiet, and I would like to hear from both of them (and slayer as well, still waiting on his response to my first post.)

If you have a problem with people being inactive then here is what you do:

Mod, can we get a prod/replacement for Headbuddy and prods for Nto, Dynamo, Macavenger, and possibly Slayer if he qualifies.

Simple as that. I want everyone to participate in discussion just as much as you do, but unless you ask, MoS might not prod them.

The point you made in a previous post is right about leading voices. However

people have a tendency to trust the leading voices too much

. I would rather

instead of the two of you leading the show while everyone kinda mumbles quietly and sporadically their opinions, having everyone speak up

,

think for themselves

,

and not trust anyone fully.

Responses separated by what I did to the text.

Bold: That is not necessarily a bad thing, but it could be a serious problem. If the leaders are town, then the trust may win the game. If they are scum it is quite bad though, because then they would be led like lambs to the slaughter. The problem as I see it is not about whether people in general trust leaders too much. It is about whether each, individual person is willing to trust and follow the lead of one of said leaders. I personally do not like the idea of rolling over because someone looks like they could be a potential leader. This is why I am aggressive, because it invariably leads to my butting heads with anyone and everyone who tries to lead the town. If everyone had this mentality, there would be no leaders, only individual players making their own decisions without outside interferance or tendancy to follow.

Italics: If they don't want to speak up, there is nothing we can do about it except tell them that we want their input (which, if they actually read the posts, they would realize). I hate the sheep mentality just as much as you do, but I won't back out of the arguments just because it might force them to come up with some of their own.

Underlined: I think I can safely call you a hypocrite right here. Thus far you have been telling people how they should think, how they should be reading the game. This is not even close to wanting them to think for themselves, it is a blatent attempt to make them think STD and I to be scummy, while at the same time making them think they came up with it on their own. Bad psychology student, bad.

All three: You seem quite adamant about this point. Excuse me if I do not find it helpful. So I will address the reason you are wrong. Assume someone is town and that they have your suggested mentality. Everything anybody does is scummy behavior to said townie, even other townies trying to scumhunt. Now assume that everyone in a single game played with that mentality. Nothing would get done, and no two people would ever vote for the same person (because what if the other person voting is scum trying to promote a townie lynch). Instead, my playstyle is to assume everyone is a townie (because the majority of them are) until they do something that makes me question their alignment. If they continue to make scummy moves, or the scumtells I am getting are particularly strong, then I press for more information. If I don't get any or what I get smells of scum, then I vote them or FOS them, because I think them scummy. Assume everyone in a single game did

this

. Discussion would progress normally until someone had built enough of a case to ask for some explanations. If the questions were answered satisfactorily the process would repeat. If not, suspicion would be placed. The whole process would repeat until a lynch was reached. I am not suggesting this is a foolproof way of catching scum, but its better than gibbering incoherently about how no one can be trusted while chasing everyone away with sticks (even the ones who agree with you, because they

must

have some ulterior motive).

As for Haterade, I honestly have little interest in him. He seems adamant about you being mafia, and provides no good evidence as of yet. Even after my first post, he responded, and did not regard me in the slightest, still carrying on his tirade against you. Now slayer did essentially the same thing over spooky, yet

why would I trust haterade over slayer?

Simple:

because I'm a townie.

But I thought you didn't want anyone to trust anyone else. Meaning you also don't want us to trust you when you say you are town (nice job with the semi-subliminal claim there though)

Now before you immediately have a red flag and warp that into what a confirmed mafia would say, think over this.

When spooky was up for the chopping block, the mafia would of likely seen that as a good opportunity to knock off a townie. If haterade was mafia, he would of jumped on that and stuck to it

(ring a bell slayer?) yet he didn't. He's been chasing a pointless case against you with no one backing him up, and he has yet to back down.

Granted, slayer hasn't backed down from his case either, but in honesty, that is the main reason I haven't voted him yet.

Bold: This is WIFOM and therefore baseless. If you are town you have no way of knowing what the scum will do in a certain situation, and if you are scum and he is too, then you know exactly why he didn't jump on the wagon against Spooky/you (No speculation on my part here, just pointing out the faulty logic).

Italics: So let me get this straight. You are waiting to vote Slayer until he backs off of you. Meaning you either do not want to cast what can be seen as an OMGUS vote, which could implicate you, or you think his vote is warrented and are waiting to see if he will drop it under pressure, which also implicates you as scum.

A SMART mafia player wouldn't be so obvious. That is how I feel about that situation at least.

More WIFOM. Your points are becoming less and less valid.

Now granted, I'm surprised no one has brought up the haterade + spooky/lindisfarne team concept more

Why would we? I believe that STD and I have both mentioned in that past that we think Haterade is likely town. And by the way, Slayer made a brief post implying you two as scumbuddies on the top of page five, so it wasn't entirely overlooked.

But seeing my role, I deduced haterade as one of the more innocent folks here.

Ok. Again with the claim hints. This is a scummy psychological ploy, because if we think you are a claimed townie then we will be more reluctant to lynch you, even though you have not actually claimed yet.

you accuse me of garnering scumbuddies towards the end there. Want to know what I have to say to that?

Yes.

Expecting some long winded defense or counter argument?

Another yes. I expect that you will answer when you are asked for information.

I'm trying to get the trains of thought moving for people. I want them to start guess, come up with better arguments, instead of pointing fingers at the obvious, don't let the subtle things pass you by. As I stated before, I wanted people to look deeper into things.

So in other words you have no defense and want someone else to provide it for you. This post goes from possibly valid to ridiculously scummy very quickly.

But I've given ample enough reasons in my scenario why anyone should be suspicious, so I'll keep the few others I have under my belt for now.

While not necessarily outright scummy, this behavior is

extremely

anti-town. A basic townie has no power but his or her voice, and failing to use it can only hinder the town's attempt to catch the scum. That is why a townie should see it as necessary to lay all the cards on the table. If you have something hidden from the town, and that information can be used to determine who the scum is, then not sharing it means you are cooperating with the scum, helping them win.

I Will say this however Kairyuu. You use FOS and HOS as a warning, you've used it like a threatening maneuver.

You are right. I do. They are weapons, and I use them as such. They mean "I am watching you, and I do not like what I see". The vote is a weapon too, and while I will not hesitate to vote someone who I think is scum, I will only vote if it has progressed beyond the realm of speculatory suspicion and into that of reasonable assurance (I generally require myself to watch for suspicious activities for longer than I would before placing a FOS or even a HOS).

It will not work on me

.

If you feel that I am so scummy, Vote for me.

I'm not going to use idle or subliminal threats here to scare you

, I'm just telling you that if you feel your hunch is so strong, don't play the speculation game.

Bold: It already has been working. The casting of suspicion is to see how you will react and to let you know I am watching you, waiting for you to slip up again. You have, several times. Which leads me to:

Italics: At this point I see both you and Slayer as extremely scummy and good choices for a lynch. Since he has yet to respond and you are sounding more and more scummy with every line, I will

unvote

and

Vote: Lindisfarne

with every intention to move it back to Slayer if he can somehow manage to increase the size of the big "I am scum" on his forehead until it is larger than the one you have been painting.

Underlined: No subliminal threats? I believe a challenge to vote you is a subliminal threat along the lines of "I will try even harder to get people to find you suspicious if you actually go through with a vote."

There are two final points here that I have to decline to elaborate on, and will likely have me cast under even more fire

I mentioned earlier about how this is anti-town. This bit is more scummy than the last though, because you are challenging people to attack you for withholding information. This means that either you don't have the info in the first place, or you are gambiting in an attempt to keep yourself alive.

but I will attempt to make things clearer if I survive to tomorrow (In game time that is, heh). I will reveal then some more interesting tidbits for you all to chew on.

Seems it was number two after all. you hope to avoid the lynch with the promise of more info on D2. Die scum die.

Confirm vote: Lindisfarne

My current goal (besides getting some new trains of thought, and more active people talking) Is to live to day two

If you are a townie, you want the town to find the scum, whether than means your death or not. It is only important to survive if you are scum.

[Kairyuu]

@LF: The funny thing is that I think you are scum, and I think Slayer is scum. But I don't think both of you are scum at the same time. At this point I am highly suspicious of both of you, but I am pretty sure that only one of you can be scum. Personally, I would be perfectly happy with a lynch of either of you today, because the information gathered from the lynch will make tomorrow's lynch much easier. I don't agree with your playstyle, and I don't think it makes sense, so I attack it. I have no problem with you personally (unlike Haterade, who I don't like due to his criticisms of other people without any decent argument of his own). I like the fact that you stick to your guns. It is actually a town tell for me, because a scum under pressure will usually cave and back off to avoid drawing unwanted attention. This alone would probably be enough to make me go after Slayer for today, except for one thing that I realized while looking back through your posts so far.

What I noticed is this:

All of your arguments have been pointed at STD and me. Sure, you have included others in your posts, but every point you have made (barring one or two against Slayer) has been directed at us. Looking back on your posts, and reading between the lines, it almost looks like you are attempting to make us turn on each other. In this way, regardless of which of us would be lynched, you could pick the other one off on N1 if you were scum, leaving you as the sole active player, the only leading voice. I don't like the fact that I was able to pick this up from your argument.

However, if you are willing to commit to a lynch of Slayer (with a vote, mind you, not just your FOS), then I am willing to go after him for today, giving you an opportunity to elaborate on your argument tomorrow. If he is scum, you are cleared temporarily (as in, I will look for scummier targets for awhile before going after you again). If he is town, you are tomorrow's lynch terget for me, without a doubt.

@STD: One issue with you.

there's a difference between arguments that are thrown around in an attempt to catch scum (you, haterade, and

kairyuu

)

I am mildly offended . You have grouped my arguments in with the illogical arguments of Haterade and LF. If mine don't make sense, then call me out on them.

[Kairyuu]

@Dynamo: You're school starts on August 26?! I pity you. Mine doesn't start until September 2. Granted, I did the same thing that you did and have to read 2.5 more books for AP Lit (I'm taking that class too) and Religion, do an equation set for AP Chem, and write three, 2 page papers for AP Lit.

[Kairyuu]

I figured as much. I was joking for the most part.

One thing I do have to question you on though is why you didn't include yourself as one of the people scumhunting. You definitely are doing so.

[Kairyuu]

@STD: Suuure you don't STD .

@Slayer: Defend yourself if you don't want to be lynched.

@Headbuddy: Post

something

. We need fresh perspective.

@Haterade: What are your current opinions. You said the case against Spooky was stupid, so what is your current opinion on the one against LF? against Slayer?

@Nto: You claimed you were waiting for Spooky to be replaced. He was replaced awhile ago. Post your opinions of the current goings on please.

@Lindisfarne: Waiting on your decision on the Slayer lynch. I am all for it if you are (STD is also a factor, but I know he is willing to go for it, as he already has his vote there).

@Dynamo: Awaiting the promised post from you with your opinions.

@Macavenger: Still waiting. We've been calling for participation for awhile now. Please provide some.

@Mastermind of Sin: Any luck with those prods I requested?

[Kairyuu]

@LF: I must concede a few points to you. So let's begin:

you saying that if slayer is lynched and is a townie that I will be your lynch target for tomorrow, doesn't phase me

This was not intended as a threat. You are high on my list of suspects. That is all. I am aggressive (as we have both mentioned several times), and will attack you for your scumminess (which you admit to having). However, now that you are no longer trying to argue your opinions (read: quirky logic), you are giving distinctly town tells. This is confusing, but I am at this point happy that you have not been lynched yet, and will now

unvote

you, because I am no longer so sure you are scum. (Wow, I am switching my vote with almost every post.)

My current read of you is that your arguments are scummy, but your play is town. This means you are not the top of my 'to lynch' list anymore.

I am currently your lynch target, and you saying you will switch to slayer if I change my FOS to a vote just does not sit well with me

Well excuse me if you don't like the fact that the town needs to work together to achieve a lynch. Note that I find Slayer extremely scummy (more so than you) and I was perfectly willing to sit on the same votee as him. I have no problem cooperating with the rest of the town to achieve a lynch on one of my targets, even help from my other target.

I will have to keep my suspicions as a FOS. If this means your vote on me still stands, then so be it.

Nope, vote is gone. You have passed test number one. Good job. Continuing to stick to your guns, I like that (as I have stated earlier). You are still scummy, but Slayer has better odds of being scum, and nailing scum on D1 means we don't have to waste a mislynch.

However, if I vote for slayer, you change your vote to him, and STD follows suit, that puts him at L-2.

Oh look, you've learned to count. And

you

will notice that STD does not need to follow suit, because his vote is already in place.

We are currently waiting on several people to respond. It wouldn't be difficult for him to end up hanging before he has a chance to speak his mind on the past few days

True. Which is why I too have decided to hold my vote for now. Granted, for me its just because I want to hammer.

After slayer posts and we hear more from him, then I may make a decision.

That's all I can ask for.

call this a WOFIM scenario if you will, but wouldn't that be one of the more obvious scum tactics?

Guess what? You are absolutely right (although not about the WIFOM bit). It

would

be a rather obvious scum tactic. That is not to say it would be a poor one though. I will continue my explanation through other quotes.

I join this game, not attempting a vote against you two, but pointing out what I felt to be scummish behavior. It

was done in an attempt to get people to open their eyes a bit more

, but if I truly believed you two to be mafia, I would of placed a vote on one of you.

Before I get to continuing I have to facepalm at this one. Let it

go

already. You try to force the town to see supicious activity, and then claim that you are trying to make them use their own eyes.

And by the way, I am pretty sure that you still would place a vote on one of us if a decent case/bandwagon was actually levelled against one of us.

If people would of jumped on that and lynched one of you (assuming I was mafia, and it revealed your innocence) then suspicion would be back on me in full force.

Not necessarily, but it is not out of the question. I cannot predict what the town would do if I were lynched and STD were NKed (or the other way around) because I would no longer be playing and I cannot guess at the mindset of the less active players, because they do not care to share it with us very often. Keep in mind though, scum are not the only ones who go after townies, especially in newbie games.

Also, killing the other one of you off N1 would be suicide as mafia. Think about it, everyone would likely come after me with a noose, that whole tactic would be far too scummy.

If anyone guessed at the culprit based on the NK victim, the argument would be nothing but WIFOM, because if you were

not

mafia, the scum could frame you by killing one of the people who would be dangerous to you if you

were

mafia.

That's my problem with your scenario, it's assuming I'm playing smart by manipulating townies into getting rid of the more vocal and dangerous innocents, yet also assumes I am playing a very dumb, obvious, and suicidal game.

It would not be playing dumb, because you would have gotten rid of the 'trusted leading voices' and, even if you did get lynched, the scum could still win, because your partner would still be lurking in the shadows, continuing to pick off townies who decided to take over trying to scumhunt until there are none left, at which point he could take the role himself to finish the game.

I will say this though. New things were brought to the table here recently, yet we haven't heard from several people, slayer included.

See my previous post, where I asked for input from everyone (except STD, who is doing so without prompting).

If we hear no word of slayer in the next few days, I may be less hesitant to vote him.

But wait, isn't that what Spooky was doing (rhetorical)? I thought you called us all stupid for finding that scummy. And by the way, I share your opinions. We do not need another player replaced as soon as suspicion starts coming their way. I am getting irritated with people disappearing when questioned.

@everyone: You know how Dynamo is going to be busy with homework before the start of the school year? Well, I am too unfortunately. I will be severely limiting my own computer time so that I can finish it. This is not to say I am going to disappear. I will make every attempt to check back here and post at least once per day, but this is not guarenteed.

[Kairyuu]

I, unlike STD, do not apologize for the long posts, and do not feel that he needs to either. If you have a large amount to say, then say it. It is up to everyone else to sift through it to find the parts relevant to themselves.

[Kairyuu]

@Nto: Any views on the Slayer case? It may only have one vote now but now that I am seeing some town tells from LF I am leaning more towards a Slayer lynch for D1.

[Kairyuu]

well honestlly LF is making this a much more interesting game, and i'm actually glad we got him to replace spooky.

Agreed.

makes me think he's going for a cop or doctor claim, posibly even a reall one.

I doubt it. There are three things I think are more likely. The first is, LF is scum, and trying to draw suspicion away by implying a general town power role, without actually claiming in case there actually is one of what he/she (LF, please confirm your gender) would be claiming. The second is that LF is vanilla, but wishes to protect any power roles we may actually have by drawing the NK. This way if we have a cop, it gets an investigation and the doc gets a potential protect. And of course the third option is that LF actually just has more of his/her argument, and is waiting for Day 2 to provide it. This would just be a foolish playstyle issue, and a null tell in this case.

Those are more likely than LF actually being a power role, because LF has actual game experience and should know better than to leave such obvious tells unnecessarily without claiming. If he/she thinks that this is actually the proper way to claim a power role, then I will eat my words, but I doubt that will happen.

also his arguement agenst STD and Kairyuu make a certain odd sense to me.

-facepalm- Sure they do. If you do what he/she says and look at the game from the perspective that STD and I are scum, then it will make sense. However, this is poor logic, and an even poorer reason for suspicion.

as for defending myself, don't you think a real scum player would try harder to appear town?

This is WIFOM. There is no way to know what a scum player would do.

me I think your conversation d2 after lynching me would be hallarious, bad for the town but hallarious

This called being a poor sport, but rings town with me.

besides i'll have very limited connectivity after the 5th probly something like an hour a day and i'd like to see something happen before then, i really would.

So in other words you are going to school, just like Dynamo, me, STD, and whoever else is still student age.

We would all like something to happen.

A D1 lynch of me would mean I wasn't expected to contribute and could just sit back and watch the comedy or tragedy depending on you point of view

Still a poor sport, but still the attitude of a miffed townie.

could even be that we're all town and some smart scum are just siting back and lurking letting us tear into eachother apart, but that seems a little unlikely.

This actually seems like the

most

likely thing in my opinion. We had an active lurker situation awhile back. Macavenger seems to have gone into hiding though when he realized that active lurking would be frowned upon, so he might actually be a better target for today than you or LF.

@STD: Yes, you read that right. We have two mislynches, and I want the town to be able to gather some more information from a lynch and a NK tonight, so I am going to throw my vote behind one of the lurkers.

Vote: Macavenger

I have to use your target now, because both of mine start seeming to be town when I let them get a word in edgewise. I guess I have to work on that style issue in the future.

Also, if Macavenger turns up scum, I think Headbuddy should be our next target.

@everyone else: If you agree with my idea then go for it. It may just be the best bet for the town right now, because while it won't provide any fresh perspective it will provide a rather large amount of information.

@Doc: If you are in this game (and if you aren't LF, because then this would be pointless) you

should not

claim today. Protect LF tonight and we will be able to here him/her explain himself/herself on D2.

[Kairyuu]

@Nto: Yes I can, but will I?

Of course I can explain.

First, and most obviously, it will tell us if Macavenger is scum, although that isn't really all that useful, because there has been no interaction between him and anyone else.

Secondly, it will tell us if Slayer has the possibility of being right. If Macavenger turns up scum then Slayer has less of a chance of being scum in my book.

Thirdly, the town also gets information from the NK, which could help us catch scum.

@STD:

You too? Fine fine.

It's just a theory I have. It may be completely off. What I think is that it's possible that if Macavenger is scum, he might have told his scumbuddy that lurking would help avoid suspicion. Headbuddy has been lurking more than anyone else in this game, so it remains as a possibility.

[Kairyuu]

@LF: Before I ditch for the night I feel I must point three things out.

I'm surprised STD and kairyuu haven't picked up on this or questioned it

Yes I have. I Specifically used his reasoning as my quote though, not his FOS. I pointed out that when he looked at our posts under your terms, of course he saw us as suspicious. Because you told him to. But that has been covered, several times.

If slayer is not mafia, then I will accept that I am next on the chopping block tomorrow

That's what I said about Spooky/you. Don't expect that to be a given though. You have been playing the game. We will look through the new information gained from whatever lynch we make today, the NK victim, and D1 information, and decide based on that.

He would know that not posting here is going to make him come under fire, and would avoid that

Not really. I think you should read a few more newbie games. We got really lucky by getting STD. I haven't read even one game where the ICs were more than slightly active (barring the REALLY old games -waves at STD-). Macavenger is the norm, not the exception, unfortunately.

[Kairyuu]

Like the last two pages have been tl;dr

Umm. What?

[Kairyuu]

@STD:

Kairyuu, if you're scum, I'm going to be really pissed. You know that, right?

Then I don't have anything to worry about, do I?

Slayer is scum, you should vote for him

I don't like this too much anymore, but I suppose I will throw my vote behind it if necessary later. Slayer raised a very good point in my opinion though. We have two people that we have been able to get almost no read on (Headbuddy and Macavenger). They should not be playing if they are not going to participate. One of them (Macavenger) seemed to be trying the rather scummy strategy of active lurking, which set of a few red flags for me early in the game, but has since disappeared completely.

I am willing to take a stab in the dark and say that Macavenger is scum and that he was hoping his active lurking would go unnoticed by us newbies. He was right too. None of us, except STD caught the behavior, (I say I noticed it but it was STD who pointed it out to me) and when it was pointed out Macavenger dropped completely. I was planning on saving my lurker-lynch suggestion for D2 after removing what seemed to be a bigger threat (LF or Slayer) but now I'm pretty sure LF is town, and I'm willing to humor Slayer to see how it works out (and I know that if Macavenger turns up town, then no matter who dies N1 Slayer will be the prime suspect D2).

Kairyuu, Lindisfarne, and I aren't scum, and you probably shouldn't vote for us

Yep yep. this one's QFT

@LF:

Can I call you an 'it' then?

I'm not asking. From here on out your gender is now not, and so is your humanity, so you are 'it.' Ok. Maybe not, but still. I wanna call you 'it.'

I'd like to chat with you about pointers sometime.

Sure. I'm game.

[Kairyuu]

No, no, no. We are

not

going to stall out right here.

Mod: We seem to need a prod for Dynamo, and we really need a replacement for Headbuddy. Not so sure about Macavenger, I'd prefer to just have a lurker lynch and see what we can learn, but if you want to replace him too, then I don't see why not.

@Haterade: Read the thread. If you aren't planning on playing then request a replacement for yourself. Otherwise, start participating.

@Nto: Have your opinions changed since you cast your vote for LF? What are your views on a possible Macavenger lynch today?

[Kairyuu]

You mean Macavenger? Spooky's gone already

[Kairyuu]

Hooray, a post by the old Headbuddy. Two more and you have more than he did.

Ok. I've been looking back over the last few pages and I've noticed something that seems interesting. I think that I have found a better target for today's lynch, under the same criteria. All I did was a quick skim, I'm reading more in detail now so that I can build a case, but I'm rather worried about this player.

I'll try to get my case up later today.

Until then,

unvote

.

[Kairyuu]

Well, it seems that real life is getting in the way for me as well. I may have my post up tomorrow morning (reasonable likelyhood) but if not then I will be V/LA until Saturday night, at which point I will finish it. (V/LA will still occur, even if post goes up.

[Kairyuu]

Vacation/somehting else (Either 'Leave of Absence' or 'Long Absence,' not quite sure which)

[Kairyuu]

EBWOP: spelling error: 'something' Sorry 'bout that.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. My target here is Haterade. I will start out by saying that. He has been doing the same thing as Macavenger, but it seems that he has been keeping under the radar a bit more due to his timing. This worries me, because the way it looks he is being noncommittal about virtually everything in this game.

First, he has eleven posts in this game, total (excluding his confirmation post). This alone qualifies as lurking because we are on page 8. There are nine people playing in this game. Haterade has less than 1/15 of the post total. This is not scummy on its own. What is scummy, is the fact that none of his posts contain defendable content, and none of them have any defense of himself of

any

sort. Let’s go through them one by one (quotes excluded):

Post 1:

Isn't that pretty much the definition of reaching?

This post is almost decent, except that what he is calling reaching, is not. It is a post by Spooky calling STD scummy for dropping a vote on Haterade in the random voting stage. It is poor logic, but it is not reaching. But this could just be a newbie mistake.

Post 2:

None of these arguments or bandwagons make any sense and are all really, really stupid.

Here’s the first problem post. There are two issues with this post. First, he backs it up with nothing. He doesn’t even try to give a reason. The second issue is that the main wagon at the time was against Spooky, who Haterade had attacked himself for reaching. Why would he call the argument stupid if he was the first person to call Spooky out for his behavior? This is the first case of hypocritical argumentation he uses. He switches his story as soon as there is suspicion against the person he called out. It looks to me like he is trying to make sure that he isn’t on any wagon that could end in a lynch, because if he’s on the wagon and the person turns up town, he will be put under suspicion.

Post 3:

That wasn't mafia. That was annoying, crappy conspiracy theory.
I mean, seriously. What's the case on Spooky? Look back on it. Does it have any merit at all? No.

I don’t even know what Haterade is trying to say in the first part, but to me it looks like a filler post because he hadn’t posted in awhile. Still no content. His reasoning remains a mystery to everyone but himself.

Post 4:

I just looked back at the 'case' against Spooky.

He's the most obvious town player out of the entire bunch. All of you voting for him will be ashamed if he gets lynched.

Still no reasoning. He cannot actually know if Spooky is town, unless he is scum and deciding to pick a target to defend so as to not look suspicious. If he had provided decent reasoning from the beginning then this post would be perfectly fine, but he didn’t, so it isn’t.

Post 5:

. How about:

4. I don't actually know for sure whether or not he is mafia, but I do know that any case made against him to this point is absurdly wrong.


Also, to: STD
A bit of an emotional response? Vote Save the Dragons

I have more that I will post soon. But not now. I have a case against someone that I will wait a day or two to type up.

The first part has him responding to one of my posts, where I called him anti-town for some of the reasons I mentioned above. He still provides no reasoning at all, just states it flat out, expecting to be believed.
The second part is in reference to STD’s sarcasm that was brought about by Haterade’s own posting style. It looks to me that this is an opportunistic vote. As soon as he sees something that he can try to twist into a scum tell, he jumps on it. There is virtually no reason behind this vote. He claims that current arguments are ‘stupid’ when they have more backing than a simple claim that something is too emotional. This is the second case of the hypocritical argumentation. He claims that none of the current cases have any merit, and then throws his vote onto STD for no reason other than sarcasm.

Post 6:

First, note that this is the 40th post of the game and everyone is still in random voting stage. Hell, at that point, I don’t think I posted at all outside of confirming that I got my role – to put this in other words, there really isn’t that much content.

The entirety of this case though is just total hogwash. Here are the criteria:
1) Spooky voted for someone because they voted for someone in the random voting stage.
2) Spooky uses posting times to justify a vote switch to someone else.

Both of these justifications for voting are pretty dumb, especially in the early game. I think spooky acknowledged that sooner or later (although I could be wrong and imagining things). But that’s all it was. Dumb reasons for voting for someone early in the game. Pretty much everyone does it – and I’m not talking about the random voting stage – because everyone tries to reach in order to escape the random voting stage. Dumb votes by a newbie in his first game I do not consider to be scummy, however people who ‘punish’ those who do make stupid votes early in the game are. Kairyuu, I’d consider you opportunistic in this regard – you’re trying to create a case out of nothing that’s there
“Bandwagoning.” Bandwagoning on a dumb case doesn’t make it a better case.
More bandwagoning, except the interesting thing here that I’d like to note is that Macavenger is trying to make it seem like he’s built a separate case on Spooky instead of simply agreeing with the posters above. This is a good scumtell, and I’m going to analyze Macavenger’s future posts to elaborate on this as the game goes along.

I still want to say a couple more things and hear them before I type up my case a little bit more. To put this differently, it’s 11:30, and I’m ready for bed. Post coming tomorrow.

This post is almost legit. His reasoning is flawed, but he at least posts it finally. Granted, he only posts it at all because of constant pressure on him to give reasons behind his statements. He tries to call me opportunistic because I made a well-reasoned vote. This is a pretty big reach. He also claims that Slayer and Macavenger are bandwagoning, when Slayer’s vote was only the second (no bandwagon yet) and Macavenger’s vote contained his own reasoning (which Haterade, for some reason, found scummy. Apparently he wanted Macavenger to mindlessly bandwagon, because that’s

much

less scummy than making your own case). This is the second case of hypocritical argumentation. He says one thing, and then changes his story soon after. He is now trying to make a case against Macavenger (although he’s not foolish enough to attach a vote this time) for what many would see as a town tell.

Post 7:

Vote Kairyuu, I've heard enough. Large post with content coming up soon. I would have tonight, but my two year old suddenly decided to terrorize the entire house while Mrs. Haterade was away at Book Club, and little Haterade tends to trump posting longwinded posts that take a good half hour-hour to type up. Tomorrow should be good, she tends to tire herself out the next day after she makes it her goal to lower the value of our home.

Now he sees that he can try to pull together a case against me, simply because I was among the most active players. He immediately goes off topic to talk about his family as an explanation for why he has no reasoning yet. Perhaps he should have held back this post altogether and used the time it took to make it too work on his case instead. Oh wait, that’s right, he hadn’t posted in awhile and needed a post to keep him off the prodding list (Note: his ‘case’ did not come until two days later, again just barely meeting the suggested minimum posting requirements.)

Post 8:

. clarification: "long winded post" basically is a large response to Kairyuu and why I think he is scum as well.

Barely worth mentioning. Says nothing. He mentioned in his previous post that he was going to make a case against me. There was no need to repeat the fact that he was going to post reasons that he found me scummy.

Post 9:

My case against Kairyuu must be prefaced with this explanation about the way I play mafia.

Imagine yourself as mafia for a second (whether you are in this game, or you aren’t). If you’re mafia, you’re spending the majority of your time trying to look like a townsperson so that you can blend in with townspeople. Your main concern is not doing something stupid and getting caught doing things that would make you look like mafia. This is imperative of any mafia player, I would think. At least, whether or not you agree with me, that’s how I would play – I’d make sure I’m as townie like as possible. I can’t imagine townies playing any other way.

***

Now, let’s take a look at Kairyuu’s posts, keeping this in mind.

***

Let’s sum up this post: talking. “Talk talk talk, hmm I thought this guy was scum but now I guess not, now let’s ask people questions.”

This argument is not an argument trying to say that Kairyuu is “too towniesh.” Well, it kind of is. Let’s assume hypothetically for a second that Kairyuu is mafia. Does this not fit sublimely into exactly what a Mafioso would say? It’s quite a bit of talking about things that would normally be relevant (“well earlier I thought that dynamo was scum, but then I read later he wasn’t, so ok we’re cool then!”) but just aren’t. Quite a few FOSs and votes are thrown out there in order to imply that he has suspicions, but they’re never with any real tenacity so as to avoid any links if that person turns out to be something that they don’t expect. Or to create links in terms of bussing/getting away from his scumbuddy.

The rest is questions, which I think can easily be fathomed as ways to look involved and quizzical, like a townie would.

***

This is all fairly obvious stuff everyone should already notice, but just listen to the caution here. He wants to make sure that nobody does things like lynch Spooky, because god forbid Kairyuu thought he was scummy but being scummy I guess isn’t a good enough reason to lynch someone. “I think spooky is scum, but don’t lynch him.” That level of caution cannot possibly be genuine. This post is where I think Kairyuu totally slipped up, because I can’t possibly fathom thinking that someone is scummy but not wanting to lynch them under every single circumstance. Hell, I’d be happy at this point if Kairyuu got lynched – I think he’s scum.

***

This post is just defensive and I don’t really want to respond to it because there’s no content to respond to. Just word after word after word when you could have just said “I disagree” 20 times and we would have left it at that.

Also, I didn’t think that Macavenger was scum yet at all, but I just found his little bit interesting. Perhaps scummy. I can’t really tell yet. I don’t know what you were trying to do by twisting my words and saying I created an “argument” against him, perhaps being way too defensive ?

(Note: asterisks mark where quotes from me were used)

A post built entirely on WIFOM. I, and STD, looked over this fact when it actually happened as a newbie’s attempt to make an argument but using poor logic. Looking back in conjunction with everything else, I can only see this as a scum’s attempt to attack a townie for the same thing he is trying to do, acting like town. My theory is that he made his case weak on purpose, in order to make me seem a poor lynch target, so his vote could not contribute to a lynch (This is speculation, I have no way of proving this). Plus, in response to one of my posts attacking his logic, he merely says ‘I don’t want to respond to this.’ Sounds like Haterade has no real defense, so he plays it off as him not feeling like defending himself.

Post 10:

***

No. I explicitly said it wasn't that.

***

It's not a "too townie" tell. I explicitly said it wasn't that. The thing is, I can't see myself ever thinking that that is what a town person would say. I can only see that as a mafia player trying to act as a town player, not a town player being town. That's what set off my Scum Radar in the first place.

***

2 isn't true, and you're not making any sense with 3.

***

I didn't miss it at all, I saw it. That's still the gist of his post

and

why?

(again, asterisks to mark quotes)

Here is the only post he’s made in response to someone’s attack on his logic in the entire game. Unfortunately, all it says is ‘You’re wrong because I said so’ so it provides no content, no contribution to the town. Besides that, Haterade flat out lies in this post. In the first two points, he mentions that he explicitly said during his post previous to this, that some of the things STD was calling him out on, were not true. This is a lie. He claims that he is not making the ‘too townie’ argument, when he said in his post:

This argument is not an argument trying to say that Kairyuu is “too towniesh.”

Well, it kind of is.

He states that it is not, but then admits that yes, it is. That’s a flat out lie, or at the very least a contradiction that we cannot overlook.

Post 11:

Like the last two pages have been tl;dr

Assuming Haterade to be town, this post shows that he is being purposefully unhelpful and lazy. Assuming him to be scum, (which I am) it shows that, plus that he is confident that he will not come under suspicion and that he is bored waiting for us to tear each other apart so that he can get to the Night phase.

When I first decided to make my case against Haterade, I was planning on using only his active lurking to make a case, just to shake it up and make him participate more (his claim that he hasn’t been following along irritated me). However, when I was looking over his posts to give my case a bit of backing, I noticed how much of a scummy trend he was showing. It is my opinion that scum rarely make big mistakes all at once, but rather leave a trail throughout their posts that adds up slowly until it becomes obvious that they are opposing the town.

Everything that Haterade has done points to either

extremely

counterproductive townie, or actively lurking scum. Either way, this lynch can serve us better than a Macavenger lynch, because Macavenger can be replaced, whereas Haterade seems to be staying just barely active enough to avoid a prod, while contributing nothing to the discussion. To me, this implies that he is watching us to see what we do, and hoping we lynch each other so that he and his scumbuddy can kill someone tonight. I want him removed from the picture.

vote: Haterade

He has made several consistency errors, used WIFOM as his only argument so far, flat out lied, lurked, and been completely noncommittal towards the game. At worst we lose a townie who won’t go away, but won’t participate either, and at best we kill a lurking scum.

@STD: Welcome back from camping. Tear my argument to shreds if you think its crap, I don’t mind. I don’t think I used WIFOM, but if I did then I know you will be the first to point it out.

@everyone: I’m V/LA starting now. I will check back Saturday around midday if I can, but for all intents and purposes I’m useless until Tuesday after school (finishing summer homework unfortunately takes precedence over scumhunting).

I still don’t want to be replaced. I’m having too much fun.
P.S. This post I

will

apologize for. It’s rather massive (2750 words including quotes) but I couldn’t shorten it and still have it say what I want.

[Kairyuu]

I don't like this statement. It seems like your adding this one thing to paint a picture of Haterade being scum (which, of course, you are doing, but something about it seems off to me).

I actually find that funny, because (as is mentioned right afterwards) that bit is the only part where I went out on a limb and made an assumption. I will rescind that point if you would like, because, as I said, I cannot prove it as it is speculation (read: borderline WIFOM). Consider that assumption rescinded due to my own faulty logic. The rest of the post stands (That was the only point I was willing to back down on).

V/LA continues, as I only am managing this because I need to turn in my AP Chem homework to my teacher via email.

[Kairyuu]

@LF: That post coming anytime soon? I'm quite interested in what you have to say about the Haterade case as well as the questions you have been asked thus far (and whether or not I can call you an 'it').

@Nto: Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner. I only just noticed it. You said in your last post that you were trying to decide whether you thought Haterade was scum or just anti-town. I don't know how you see it, but in my opinion an anti-town townie is just as bad as scum. They provide big mislynch targets that the scum can push when in LyLo. Haterade seems the most anti-town player we have in this game (barring the players who got replaced/are getting replaced). Lynching Haterade now will save us a good bit of trouble later. If he's scum then we have two mislynches until LyLo. If he's town, then a potential mislynch target is eliminated

for

LyLo.

[Kairyuu]

@STD:

It seems to me that you're trying to lynch Haterade based on him being town but counterproductive.

Where do I say that? In my post to Nto? I was taking the assumption in that case that Haterade being counterproductive, even if he is town, is still bad enough for the town to warrant a lynch. Personally, I think he is scum, and my case shows why i think that. He

is

being counterproductive, but he has some pretty glaring inconsistancies in his posts. I will be extremely surprised if he's town.

I need to thoroughly look over your case on Haterade sometime.

Yes. Please do. I think its pretty solid (other than the point you mentioned) but if you can find problems with it then please point them out to me.

[Kairyuu]

Other people who play 40k?!?!?!? I play Eldar and dabble in Chaos with a Thousand Sons subset.

I am a He.

Awww. I wanted to call you 'it'

But, onto my main post.

@LF:

He stuck to his guns against you, even after getting repeatedly knocked down and having his case against you shredded.

He made one post against me. When he was challenged, his response was 'You are wrong because I said so.' In the same post as he did this he contradicted himself, because some of the things that were 'wrong' about refuting his argument were things he stated quite clearly in his original case. After that happened, he dropped his argument completely and went back to being unhelpful. All that he left was his vote, which means nothing if he doesn't continue to support it.

So tell me, where did he stick to his guns?

Spooky had a deal of suspicion on him in the beginning, and it wouldn't of been too hard for haterade to hop on the bandwagon, given some of the reasoning, it wouldn't of been overly suspicious for him to do so. I know I am a townie, if he was mafia, I see no reason why he wouldn't try to off me. Yet, he instead goes after kairyuu, who, at the time, had little suspicion on him.

This is a scum tactic that I term (I dunno if it has an actual name) associating. In this strategy, a scum player will choose a town player who has a case against them to defend. Then, if the defense fails, and the townie is lynched, the scum player looks more like town than the townies/scum who were on the wagon.

Even if that isn't what happened, another thing that scum do often is avoid the D1 wagons. If they do not vote for the person being lynched D1 then they have less of a chance of being put under suspicion D2.

Therefore, yes, your reasoning is meaningless to us, and foolish of you considering your strategy. You claim that we shouldn't trust anyone, but then you essentially tell us that you trust Haterade, who has been constantly anti-town.

FOS: LF

Now I need to defend Slayer a bit here, because you seem to be misunderstanding a few things (or I am, not sure).

You (Slayer), after being so adamant on me before, drop your case (which really shocked me) and then FOS'd Kairyuu and STD.

He didn't drop his case. He removed his vote because he thought your reasoning may make sense. He retained his suspicions (he kept a FOS on you too). The fact that he pulled his vote off of you when he had other suspects actually rings town to me. With four suspects (he mentioned his suspicions of Haterade way before anyone else did), and none that he wanted dead immediately, FOSes instead of votes are a much more town thing to do.

Oh, but it gets better. Kairyuu makes a post about haterade, and why he sees him as scum, and you immediately put a vote for haterade, going so far as say you're "not backing down". And then, you state how you're anti lf/haterade.

Look at the top of page 4. Slayer specifically states that he thinks Spooky (you) and Haterade are scum. It is the same thing I was doing when I couldn't decide between you and him.

@STD:

Have you ever taken classes in or studied psychology?

Nope, its a Senior elective in my school and I am taking AP Physics instead. Am I doing the same thing as LF was? If so I'll do what I can to correct that. Just tell me what I did wrong.

@Haterade: I'll have a post up shortly ripping your logic into little tiny pieces because it doesn't make sense.

[Kairyuu]

@Haterade: I really want to respond to your first longish post, but it seems to be directed at STD, so unless he lets me I'll leave it alone.

Let's get down to business.

Where was it poor logic? It was reaching of the fullest extent. You really had to pull some strings to actually think it true at that point.

It was poor logic because Spooky was using scumtells that do not apply to the random voting stage (a quick vote is suspicious later in the game, but not in the RVS). Reaching would have been making reasons up and hoping that they would be believed.

1) I didn't "attack" Spooky. I think you're confusing "attacking" with "thinking is scum." Just because I attack someone doesn't mean I think that person is scum, and vice versa. You have meshed the two into one item, which is wrong.

Ok. You just contradicted yourself within two sentences. First of all, you say that you didn't attack Spooky. Then you go on to say that you did attack him, but that you didn't find him scummy. I agree that it is possible to attack someone's reasoning without thinking that they are scum, but in this case, you are doing both (unless you are holding different players up to different standards). You call him out for reaching, but say now that you didn't find him at all scummy, but yet in your case later defending Spooky, you call me scummy for reaching (even though I wasn't). You didn't actually say the word reaching in reference to what you said I did, but you used the definition, 'trying to make a case out of nothing.' So I am scummy for what you misinterpret as reaching, but Spooky wasn't for what you misinterpreted as the same thing?

2) Never have I ever thought Spooky was scum. I just said that he was reaching, which...he was.

No he wasn't. See above for reasoning.

I'm lazy. I post what I think and only decide to type all this stuff up if I get called out on it. I explained myself when I got called out on it. This is called "concise writing," something which you fail to comprehend considering the amount of times I groan and roll the scrolly wheel on my mouse whenever I see your posts.

If you are too lazy to play properly then you shouldn't be playing. Posting your actual reasoning only when you are called out on it is not an intelligent way to play. It's not 'concise writing,' but rather 'withholding information,' which is anti-town. Not reading the arguments that people make is also anti-town, so stop rolling that scrolly wheel of yours and start playing mafia.

Yep. And was that a legitimate vote? No, I wanted to see STD's reaction to it. Of course my vote's been on you ever since, so you know.

Which part are you saying 'yep' to, the part where I call you opportunistic, the one where I call you scummy, or both.

If it was an attempt to get a reaction from STD then you picked the wrong post to do it in response to. Also, failing to mention that after the fact, along with what you gathered from his reaction, is also bad, and scummy.

Since when have I changed my story? This is where you confuse "attacking someone" with "thinking they're scum." This is part of the reason why I think you're mafia, because you have no idea of the distinction between the two so you mesh them together as one.

When did you change your story? When you called Spooky out for reaching and then made a major reach to accuse me of reaching. Also, when you attacked the case against Spooky as baseless, and then reached again to make a case against Macavenger for a minor town tell. I can determine the distinction just fine, thank you very much, and you seem to think that calling me stupid is enough for a case against me.

I like to be concise when possible. Are you suggesting that I'm purposely lurking to be as specific as post times just so that I don't get replaced and can stay under the radar? If that's the case, aren't I doing a poor job of it?

'Concise' and 'Baseless' are different words. You seem to be confusing the two. I never called you out on post times. That wold be pulling a Spooky. I said that you are deliberately being inactive and posting minimally to avoid a prod.

You can see what I meant. I meant to clarify that it wasn't a "too towniesh" post. Don't twist my words. I feel I've already explained myself properly in this regard.

Wow. How exactly am I twisting your words here? You

specifically stated

(and I

bolded

) in the quote

you just used

that it was a too townie tell. That isn't twisting your words, thats noticing a contradiction.

Or I'm lazy and don't feel like reading tl;dr posts.

You do realize that you just agreed with me right? If you aren't going to actually participate, or read the posts, then you are just as bad as a lurker who never posts. It's extremely anti-town behavior that you are doing nothing to correct.

That's fine. That's cool. It's also OMGUS.

OMGUS requires me to vote for you because you voted for me. I was planning on voting you for active lurking, which you are doing, in an attempt to force you to participate. Then I noticed all of the scummy behavior, and made a much stronger case.

I still think my logic is good, and so far the only thing I can see against it is that it's kind of WIFOM (and it kind of is, but I still think it has a solid core), and to say I've contributed nothing to the discussion is being kind of absurd. I think I've been pretty active in wanting to see you lynched.

The core of your logic

is

the WIFOM. If it only had hints of WIFOM then it would be perfectly fine and I you would only have been called out for bits and pieces of it. Instead, you base your entire argument on the idea that scum try to act like town, which is true, but WIFOM, because town act like town as well, and looking for town tells to interpret as scum tells is going to get you nowhere.

Active in wanting to see me lynched? You made one post voting for me, one post explaining why you think I am scummy, and now you made one post attempting to make it seem like you still have a case, which you don't.

1 I don't think I've really been doing but in your eyes I guess I have so I don't really have a defense against that

Just try to post more often, and explain your reasoning without being prompted repeatedly and the lurkiness goes away. When the game you are in adds approximately a page every 2-3 days then posting once or twice during that time period isn't enough to be considered active, especially when your posts are empty.

2 I just pointed out why that's wrong and the logic behind it is wrong

All you did was prove to me that you have no defense against the accusations except to say that I misread. And unless I misread several times, including once in the very post I am responding to, then that statement holds no water.

and 3 is my posting style. I always post thoughts first and content if I get called out on it. I'm not going to spend all my time typing up something when I could just get to the point instead.

See above in my post for why this is anti-town. And by the way, the content

is

the point, so not posting it is not 'getting to the point,' its avoiding it.

All you have done in this post is use the same reasoning that I found scummy in the first place to try to say that you are not scummy, and admit to lurking and being anti-town.

Confirm vote: Haterade

You need to be lynched, scum, as soon as possible.

[Kairyuu]

Mod, we also need prods for Nto and Dynamo if you can

I'll have a post up tomorrow for you Haterade. It's late, I haven't done my homework yet, and I have school in the morning, so I will get around to the post soon.

[Kairyuu]

Ok, seems I have more to respond to than expected. I'll handle each person saparately.

@Haterade: Interesting to note that now that you are under suspicion you have become much more polite. Possibly trying to get us to say 'he's being nice now, seems town.' I'm not gonna say that, but I do appreciate your attitude change.

Let's start on your post.

Whoops! I meant to put "I attacked spooky but I didn't think he was scummy." That was an error on my part.

And I've already gone over my case over you, I don't recall where reaching ever became a part of it?

Ok, I'll accept the first bit because it's feasible. I don't want to, but it makes sense.

You introduced reaching against me when you made your defense of Spooky. You never said the word, but you used the definition and then called me opportunistic for it. You can't claim that you weren't attacking me as scum because your next post was your case against me.

I'm not going to ever change the way I play, so if you don't think I'm playing properly, well that's just too bad then isn't it?

Ok. Here's my solution. Get lynched because you're scum. Then you don't need to change, because you will be gone and the town will be closer to winning.

I thought it was the right one. And why is that scummy? I don't understand.

Obvious sarcasm does not successfully draw a reaction that gives any information.

It is scummy because a true townie, if he was trying to get a reaction, would share the information he gained from it with the rest of the town. He would not drop the point completely and only mention it if you are called out on it.

I don't exactly remember accusing you of reaching (sorry if I've forgotten stuff about the game, offsite things have been stressing me out lately), so could you please point this out to me? I think I've laid out my case on you without ever mentioning reaching and if I did it was entirely within a different context. Spooky did one thing that was reaching, and I called him out on it. You've done, throughout the entire game, done things that I thought were scummy, and I've explained why. None of it has to do with "reaching."

See above.

Macavenger I didn't think was scummy either. It was a one sentence observation, and it's the rest of the town that I think is blowing it entirely out of proportion.

You called him out on something and said that it was a scumtell for you. That means you thought he was scummy. This is another lie. If you can't keep your story straight, then you can't expect to not be challenged on it.

Well I can't really prove this to you, but this is wrong.

If you can't prove it, then you can't really refute my point can you? Just like I couldn't argue against STD's hypotheticals early in the game because I couldn't prove it.

You may noticed that I read them.

You didn't say so earlier, so I was going on the assumption that you hadn't, as you had said before.

That's a fair criticism which I've already noted is the one part of my argument where it falters. When I read other games, I see other arguments be entirely dismissed just by saying the 5-letter acronym and nothing else is said about the argument. That's not necessarily true, I think -- there's still quite a bit of good information embedded within those arguments that the "WIFOM" tag can't just dismiss outright. This is one of those scenarios -- I may be wrong and the WIFOMmy part of my argument dismisses it, but there's still quite a bit about your character embedded within those posts.

Yes, your case shows that, if you take away the WIFOM, you have proved me to be a townie player. Your argument hinges on the fact that I'm scum doing a good job of blending in, which is based on WIFOM logic. Therefore your case turns into a town proving post.

To put it differently, when I read your posts, it's almost like I'm reading a list of things to say, do, and write as town. Whether this makes you scum or not, it still speaks quite a bit about how WIFOM can actually be constructed into arguments if at all.

To be concise, I think that WIFOM is not grounds for immediate dismissal for an argument and I think it's valid in many a circumstance.

Oh really, I'm reading off a list of town behavior am I? Or perhaps I'm actually town scumhunting. Think of that?

No. The point of any post is to put accusations and suspicions out there. Usually the super longwinded explanation is not necessary. If it ever is, I'd be happy to read it and post it myself.

Then why were you so hesitant to read the two pages you originally didn't.

@Xtoxm:

I noticed the Warhammer talk and just had to join. I used to collect thousand sons too, Kairyuu!

I've never actually bought any of them, I don't have the money to collect more than one army, so I proxy with Eldar when I play them.

Yeh, I was thinking looked quite like scum too, before I replaced in, but I checked his other games too, he has flaked all his other games with his last posts all on the same date, so he's either quit or lost connection or something.

I must call you out on this as I did for LF when he replaced in. We should be playing as if we had no idea of the other games that a player is currently in. Therefore, there's no way for us to know that within the game.

As mentioned, I felt that he was town when I looked through his posts last night.

Can you elaborate? I think I made a pretty decent case against him a page or two back.

Kairyuu - His early actions look like they have pro-town intentions, to me. I also notice that he's very active, which I think makes it more likely he's. I'm thinking he's town right now.

QFT fully and completely

I once used mass waffling as a scum strategy to try and confuse people. My posts wern't any near as long as LF's however...

But, what do you guys think about the possibility that he's doing that here?

Personally, I doubt it. LF has actually been scumhunting once he was done with his original 'no one can be trusted' freakout-fest.

Also - I've noticed there have been a large amount of FOS's distributed in this game.

I VERY rarely use them, and don't see them much more often than I use them...What's with that?

FOSes are fun for me. I can use them without voting to show that I have more than one target. When I have more than one, I do not hesitate to use them.

@Slayer:

and you would be refering to the post I actually pointed to myself when I voted for haterade.

No I'm not. I'm referencing the post where you say Haterade and Spooky were scum. Top of page 4, not page 9.

Also, I did not say that middle part of the quote you attributed to me. That was LF I think.

or more likely he Ignored to make a better case against me...

I never droped my case agienst LF, I wanted to lynch LF/spooky d1 and go after haterade d2, but doing it the other way around seems more likely to happen ATM is all.
also, unless you count my FOS's of kairyuu and STD, (I'd remove it but as LF said everyones suspect.)
and a random vote at the start of the game I've stuck to my LF/spooky - Haterade scum team threory because absolutely NOTHING has come along to cast doubt on it.

QFT

[Kairyuu]

@Dynamo: Nice. Two of my friends play Tau. They're pretty easy for me to beat at 1000 pts (which is all I have of Eldar).

@LF: What army do you play? Everyone has told us so far but you. I'm curious.

@STD: Magic you say? After the game, when we're able to communicate, I want to play you on Magic Workstation. I personally think my new deck to be quite effective and I want to test it out on an experienced player to see how it fares.

Onto the serious stuff.

@Dynamo:

Well actually now that ive been reading your posts vs his posts it seems that you come off overly aggressive

I'm like that. It's just my personality. It's my opinion that it can be extremely helpful for me to catch scum. I figure that if I push people hard enough for information, then they will slip up if they're scum. I suppose I could turn it down a bit (stop telling people to die as scum) if the rest of you think I'm going over the top, but I won't stop pushing agressively at my suspect(s).

@Xtoxm:

Well, as I skimmed though his posts it looked to me like he was town, basiclaly. He looked quite good to me.

Yes I know. You said that already. What I was asking you was if you could look over what I said about Haterade more closely and give a bit more of a detailed read.

@Slayer:

however kairyuu's agressiveness is bothering me a bit, but he has been agreeing with me on the hate-LF idea so I don't know...
like the results but worring about the method? so i'll keep that FOS in place.

I already addressed my agressiveness, so I'll let you read above for that. What I find amusing is that we are both doing the same thing. I think that you are somewhat scummy still, for reasons I detailed a few pages ago, but I am willing to work with you to lynch Haterade because I see him as more dangerous than you right now.

@STD and Xtoxm: I'm in agreement with STD on this point. Personally I dislike metagaming because I feel it is against the spirit of the game, but I suppose there isn't exactly anything I can do about it other than nto use them. One thing to note that STD hit spot on though; metas are more useful to the person with the meta than the person looking for it, because people will generally change their playstyle to throw people off of their trail.

@everyone: I really don't see why people (Dynamo, Nto, STD, IVS) who have expressed agreement with my points and agreed that Haterade is scummy, don't add their vote to him. If you think he is scummy then vote him.

[Kairyuu]

Sorry. I'll word it differently. You say you skimmed the game and felt he was town. I have a detailed post up on page 9 (I think) showing my case against him. Could you give me your views on the case specifically? Reasons you disagree? Points you agree with? The haterade case is my pet case right now and I just want a bit more than 'from a quick skim he looks town.'

Also, one more thing. Do you still find LF scummy? Your vote is still on him and the deadline is approaching, so if you don't think him scummy leaving your vote on him could be dangerous.

[Kairyuu]

@Xtoxm:

Quote:
If it was an attempt to get a reaction from STD then you picked the wrong post to do it in response to. Also, failing to mention that after the fact, along with what you gathered from his reaction, is also bad, and scummy.

Why?

I see that bit as scummy because it's my opinion that a town player should always provide the town with any information that they have. The fact that he didn't means to me that he didn't have any information and was actually trying to feel around to see if STD would roll over easily over something like being called on sarcasm.

What's all this reaching stuff about, anyways?

I see Haterade as being hypocritical about the concept of reaching. Apparently I was reaching when I made a case against Spooky based on what I had and that was scummy, but yet he can call other things reaching without finding them remotely scummy.

What is this core of his logic you speak of?

The core of Haterade's logic is in his preface to his case. He thinks that I am playing as if I have a list of town tells in front of me and I am making sure that I use them (in other words I'm scum because I'm acting too much like town).

@STD:

I think Haterade is a player who has played with bad logic and an abrasive playstyle, but atm I'm not sure he's scum.

Good enough answer for me. I disagree, but I've posted my reasons quite a few times already. If you still don't agree, then I can't exactly force you.

I also don't know what Magic Workstation is either But if it was free and I didn't have to pay for cards, I'd totally be up for it.

Yup yup. Totally free if you download the permanent evaluation copy. And there's a link on the same site you download it to another site where you can get all of the cards up to like the Lorwyn expansion or something.

[Kairyuu]

@STD: Quick note before I start. The 'padding' bits you have pointed out are the fact that I decided to analyze each and every one of Haterade's posts. I will readily withdraw some of my points, as they are not all essential to my case.

I think scum would be more defensive, because they have something to defend against.

Interesting theory. Not quite sure if I disagree. However, town should also be active in their own defense to avoid being mislynched, so it becomes null. That's one point of mine useless.

Can you both define 'reaching' for me?

I define reaching as one of two things. Either someone picking up a null tell or a town tell and spinning it to make it seem scummy, or someone trying to make a case out of nothing.

I'm sure Slayer would suggest that in post 1 he's distancing himself from his partner, and in post 2 he's trying to protect his partner. The hypocrisy is interesting to note, although I don't think we can call it hypocrisy because his first statement doesn't necessarily constitute an attack.

Slayer's reasoning is not the same as mine. I don't particularly think that LF is scum anymore, and at the very least I am willing to hear him out on D2 when he is planning on giving us more information.

I interperet it as an attack, so I still think he is being hypocritical there, but I can't force you to think like I do.

What are other explanations for this behavior?

I could see it as a very minor cop tell if the game started in the night phase. I can also see it as him being a wait and see player who doesn't think that there is enough to constitute a case yet. The first one doesn't apply here, and the second one he proved wrong because he hasn't given any opinions about the Slayer case, the former Macavenger case, or the former LF case. If there's any possibilities I missed, then point them out, because I can't think of anything else.

Padding.

It's mentioning another instance of what I consider to be scummy behavior. How is that padding exactly? Don't pointing out multiple instances of the same thing show a trend better than single, isolated ones?

So why are you using posting times as a point against Haterade?

Spooky used posting times as his entire argument to justify a vote. I pointed out a lurky trend that could possibly point to trying to hide from prods. Completely different contexts in my opinion. If I'm wrong, then as always, I encourage you to point it out.

Might be padding, might be legit.

I don't see it as either. I mentioned it because he made the post. I didn't point out scumtells in it, just clarification of an easily understood concept. How would it be padding? How would it be legit?

You can only see this as a scum's attempt?

I probably worded that too strongly. I see it as scummy in conjunction with all of my other points. On its own, I can still see it as what you originally pointed it out as.

I'd say Haterade's done the former, not the latter.

How so? If anything, I think he's done both.

I'm not so confident in your methods of finding him guilty than seeing reasons to prove it.

When I started to make my case, I thought Haterade was town. I was trying to look at his posts objectively to determine which ones contained information and which ones didn't, so that I could make my case to make him participate. As I went through the posts, I realized that there was more going on than I had thought, so I made my case based upon the whole thing, rather than just one bit.

My problem is I'm not sure which one is correct right now.

The more information, the better, in my opinion. Since we are getting quite close to the deadline, I think that a Haterade lynch on D1 would be the most beneficial lynch right now, because it has the most potential to provide links (plus I really think that he's scum). I would say that if he turns up scum, then LF has the best chance of being his scumbuddy, but if he turns up town, then I would look into Slayer a good bit more (and myself, by association (even though I can't make a case against myself when I know my intentions)). I am also thinking that we should keep more of an eye out for Xtoxm and IVS, not because they have been scummy, but because they are the most recent additions to the game and they are the ones we have the least information on right now.

@Dynamo: I understand that rl is quite tough when you have so many APs, but try to keep active until the Day ends at least. We want to have the best chance of lynching scum, and to do that we need as many active players as possible.

@Nto: Same to you as well. We need input from the rest of the town.

@IVS: You've been more active than the two above, (or at least posted a bit more content) but you still haven't posted even one vote yet, and deadline is fast approaching.

Everyone here (barring Haterade for obvious reasons) has expressed at least mild agreement that Haterade is scummy, but yet there are only two votes cast on him right now, and some people haven't placed a vote in several pages (which would be fine if you were sitting on one, but most of the ones who haven't voted in awhile don't have a vote down at all).

@LF: Nice army name. Curious though as to how you feel about 4th edition chaos. I very much preferred when I could field basic troops with two wounds each, and all of the daemons have been severely nerfed for the purpose of Codex: Chaos Daemons.

I would most certainly be interested in playing you over MW when the game ends. I'm not all that great, but my deck is a reasonably capable Green/Black combo of the Shamanism theme deck (for life and mana gathering), the Deathmarch theme deck (for big creatures and interesting effects), and a good deal of booster pack cards (for the stuff I couldn't get in the theme decks).

Try to catch up as soon as you can, because deadline is only 6 days away.

Mod: Can we get a mass prod for anyone who qualifies, which I think is only Nto at this point

[Kairyuu]

I may be wrong, (going off memory) but i think it's:

LF: 1 (Nto)
Slayer: 2 (STD, LF)
Kairyuu: 1 (Haterade)
Haterade: 2 (Kairyuu, Slayer)

Not Voting: 3 (Xtoxm, Dynamo, IVS)

We need 5 for a lynch, or 3 at deadline, so we need a vote (on Haterade ) at the very least for a deadline lynch. Otherwise it's no lynch, which hurts the town. I am not backing down from Haterade, because I think he is far scummier than Slayer right now, so my personal preference would of course be to lynch him outright.

[Kairyuu]

@Xtoxm: Good luck with that Dynamo lynch. I've been pushing Haterade for 3 pages now and only have 2 on him. I'd say the only two plausible lynches today that could actually happen are Slayer or Haterade, and I think that Slayer can be partially cleared if Haterade is scum, and implicated much more strongly if he isn't, whereas I can't see what we could gain, information-wise, if we lynch Slayer right now, town or scum.

Also, regarding Dynamo, how is he scummy?

[Kairyuu]

Mod: I'm almost positive that Slayer is voting Haterade

Hi Yuu. You have the second half of my name. You

must

be scum. Not really. Looking forward to your impressions of our, extremely content heavy, game.

[Kairyuu]

@Yuu: I think you got a pretty decent read of what's going on (other than me being possibly scummy ), and you raised a very good point about LF. Now I want to know how he finds Haterade town for the same reasons he found STD and me suspicious. I would like that question aswered as well. I still think LF should have a chance to give his info on D2. I don't

like

the fact that he feels he needs to wait, but I'm getting a town feel from him still.

I haven't even thought about this, but now that you brought attention to this possibility and LF is town, scum will be aware of this possibility and will be thinking two times before doing anything.

That was the point. I would prefer that the scum think twice before killing a potential power role than kill LF without hesitation and possibly hitting a cop or doc.

@LF: Yep. I smell WIFOM, but it's only a little bit WIFOMy, and you admitted it might be, so I won't hold it against you. I do have to disagree with you about what scum would be doing. My own WIFOMview of that would be that scum should be avoiding their partner completely, because if one of them was lynched and turned up scum, then the other would be incriminated quite a bit.

Also, I'm glad you have realized that agressiveness is beneficial to the town, rather than a scumtell.

If haterade is mafia, he is a shit poor mafia player. He is focusing on one player, and is failing epically to convince anyone to vote with him. What's worse, instead of withdrawing and attempting to go after a better target, he is sticking on this one guy who no one has the intentions of voting for. It also seems he's not playing with his partner at the early stages.

Personally, what he is doing is exactly what I see as a valid scum strategy.

@STD:

Then how is it a point against him?

I may be misinterpreting what you were referring to. Can you clarify what you saw as the possible town tell and what was the possible scum tell?

@Slayer: Just google Magic Workstation and like the first one will get you the site.

[Kairyuu]

@Haterade:

I was looking for a reaction that I knew would incriminate him. I did not see that reaction, so I dropped it.

That clears you of absolutely no suspicion. As I said before, it is my opinion that if you were town then you should have said something about that when it happened. As in,

told

the town that you were looking for a reaction when you did it. This is still a very minor tell to me, but fits in with the trend of scumtells.

I don't think I'm being hypocritical at all.

Your "reaching" (or whatever it was) doesn't implicate you as scum in the least

,

but instead it is a part of your posting thought the game that makes you scum.

Besides, I could easily see spooky's thing as a newbie mistake. That's why I said he's most likely town.

You just can't seem to avoid contradicting yourself can you? The bolded section contradicts the section in italics. If my posting through the whole game makes me scummy, then whatever reaching you say I did would implicate me as scummy based on your own words. Saying it doesn't implicate me in the least means that your attacking me for it was completely unfounded. Which implicates

you

as even scummier in my opinion.

@Xtoxm: -sigh- That vote would be much better served on Haterade this close to the deadline, but whatever. You've provided your reasoning, and it's not like a gut instinct can be proved as poor logic, since it doesn't involve logic in the first place.

[Kairyuu]

@STD: Just curious, but how many posts are required to make your own member title? I seem to have made Mafia Scum rank rather quickly and I would like to know how much more I need before I can make it what I want.

[Kairyuu]

I should have included this with my last post but oh well.

@Dynamo: On one hand, I'm pretty sure you're town, because you have been playing reasonably inteligently throughout the game. You also think Haterade is looking like a good lynch, which I agree with (of course).

On the other hand, you haven't voted him yet, which frusterates me, because you, like almost everyone else, say he's a good lynch but won't vote him. Also, you think I might be scum because I'm agressive, which saddens me. I am seriously going to have to put 'aggressiveness is not a scumtell' in my sig sometime soon.

[Kairyuu]

Aww. I wanted to make one for myself. Oh well.

[Kairyuu]

V/LA until Thursday, the day after deadline. Completely happy with my vote right now, so I see no reason to change or remove it during my absence.

[Kairyuu]

@STD: That clears things up for me, so now I can clear things up for you.

I said that I think scum

rarely

make big mistakes all at once. That does not mean that I think that it never happens. Therefore, I most certainly do not see big mistakes to be a town tell, but rather a somewhat smaller scumtell than a pattern of minor scummy actions. As I said, I see him as having done both in the couse of the game.

@Yuu:

You're the one who wanted to hammer people =D

Still willing to do that if it comes down to it and I am able to get online to do it. I doubt I'll be able to though so I'm keeping my vote on.

Also, Kairyuu, in the beginning of the game you said to us not to lynch anyone before letting them talk, why so insistent now?

I called for Spooky to talk because he hadn't responded even once to anyone's questions. Haterade has posted several times since being accused, but yet he has not made anything even resembling a defense of himself. I would, of course, consider reconsidering my vote if he provides an actually convincing argument.

V/LA continues. This free time was not expected.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Well, I dislike the fact that STD died, he was one of my near confirmed town reads (and extremely fun to have in this game). His death shows us very little about the scum, but it does remove one of the scum's biggest threats.

Ok. So in my mind we have three confirmed/near confirmed townies.

Myself (of course I would say that ) because the Haterade lynch was my brainchild (sorta) and I pushed it the whole time (this may be WIFOM, so slap me around if it is)

Slayer, because I can't see him jumping right in on Haterade's lynch and sticking with it if he were scum. The original mention of Haterade's possible scumminess could have been distancing, but I don't see him sticking to his guns even under pressure as scum.

LF, because of the cop claim, obviously.

I was hoping to implement my own strategy with the claims, but this way works too, even if it does provide a somewhat lower chance of victory. (My way would have been to take the idea of the town that is currently up for the 'Best Performance by a Team' Scummy and have people with power roles claim 'power.' That way the cop and doc would know who each other were, and if we had either 1 or 3 claims of 'power,' we would know exactly who to lynch.

Now, onto my reads thus far of everyone else (I've been neglecting this in my overly aggressive attack on Haterade):

Xtoxm: Reads town to me. Good ideas, good scumhunting ever since he got here. Nice and active. 80% chance town in my book.

Yuu: I'm getting a definite new townie read. Not newbie town, just new. He's being as active and honest as he can from what I can tell. He's made good points, and overall, seems to be helping the town. 75% town to me.

Dynamo: Not overly active, but he says it real life interfering. Until late in D1 he had not contributed much at all. He jumped on the Haterade wagon late, when virtually everyone was saying that they couldn't see anyone else being lynched D1. I can see this as giving up on his partner. I get a neutral, possibly scummy but not overly high, read from him. 45% town in my opinion.

afatchic: Not enough information. Headbuddy made one post, IVS only made a small number, and failed to take a decisive stance on anyone, and afatchic didn't have much of one. He said that I might have been scum asking that people not quicklynch Spooky because Spooky and I may have been scumbuddies, but did nothing but point a FOS at me. No votes by him either. Least information of anyone in the town at this point. I can't give a percentage for him. My suggestion would be that we either lynch him now and hope it sticks, or have LF investigate him tonight (preferred method).

I like Xtoxm's first idea too. I would be willing to offer myself up as one of the townies to be investigated/lynched if there is a call for it, but I would prefer to see Dynamo and afatchic in there at least for today.

[Kairyuu]

I hate you LF, you know that. I just spent like 2 hours typing up my own version of a plan where we had approximately 95.5% chance of winning and you just killed it.

The only thing I have to add is that if fatchic is scum, he will claim doc, so we should have everyone have a chance to say if they are the doc or not, but only if fatchic claims doc.

Sorry Yuu, I knew you were a girl, because I remember remarking that you were the first girl to join this game. Not sure why I forgot that when I was typing up my post.

[Kairyuu]

I like the idea of lynching fatchic today, but would also be willing to allow myself to be confirmed via lynch or investigation either today (D2), tonight(N2), or tomorrow (D3).

Also, xtoxm, your plan is only guarenteed if the doc claims, so it should happen now.

That said, I am not the doctor, I am Vanilla.

[Kairyuu]

Good game everyone. I was kinda supecting fatchic, and was going to suggest investigating him tonight because we had so little information on him/IVS/Headbuddy because of the repeated replacements.

Good game though. On the note of the doc. I saw some doc tells from Slayer once the pressure was on him, which is why I called for the doc protect of LF early on (see Yuu, it was because I thought I had the setup determined, not to draw out the doc).

I thought we were screwed when LF was practically screaming cop, but when I saw some doc tells from Slayer, I started trying to maneuver it so that Slayer would not be suspected as the doc, or targeted N1. Granted, he was doing quite enough to seem like a good lynch D2 so I was pretty confident in the game. I'd say we would have won even if the RB wasn't lynched.

Again, good game all.

vote: afatchic

Game Over.

[Kairyuu]

Regarding the doc tells on Slayer, look back at when I was pursuing him. Right as I backed off I quoted both of the doc tells I saw and wrote them off as miffed townie while hoping that no one would nitice them. He complains about not having much time to play anymore, and says he will find the conversation after he is lynched hilarious. That jumped out as power role for me, and since there were strong cop tells from LF, I assumed doc. I was helped by the fact that LF attacked him for the tells, so I was pretty sure that no one else had noticed the tells.

[Kairyuu]

Same here LF. I had a lot of fun with this game, and I wouldn't mind playing with pretty much anyone here again ('cept maybe Haterade. Being rude is not nice).

Still up for the playstyle discussion with me and STD? And crushing me at Magic?

[Kairyuu]

Hey Xtoxm. Since the game is technically over are we allowed to pm each other now?

[Kairyuu]

7 alive, 4 to lynch. All we're waiting for is MoS to sign on and tell us that the game is over.

[Kairyuu]

I agree with you Xtoxm. I can only see self-voting to be valid if the game is already over like this one was when fatchic voted himself.

[Kairyuu]

Wait. You actually protected

me

Slayer? I thought you found me suspicious for my aggressiveness? And if you didn't then why didn't you listen to my call for a doc protect for LF? I'm confused. I was specifically putting my neck on the line because I was nearly positive Haterade was scum, (I was right) Lf was the cop, (right again) and you were the doc (and another correct). I was trying to draw the NK to myself so that the town would keep its power roles. I suppose that if I had succeeded then your decision would have been quite good, but I don't think that not protecting the obvious cop was the best idea.

Meh. It ended up working for the best anyway, so no harm done.

[Kairyuu]

Not quite sure you're allowed to start posting in the thread again quite yet.

On your points.

You didn't seem rude at all once you actually had suspicion cast on you, and before that you were just generally unhelpful, not particularly rude.

I wasn't surprised that I got the lynch off. I had been lacing my posts with subtle hints that Slayer was an extremely poor lynch choice for awhile, and pushing your lynch so hard that if you hadn't been lynched D1 I'm sure you were done for early in D2. That and the fact that I was using the deadline to make your lynch seem more important. Time was not on your side my friend.

Why would you leave such a major logical fallacy in your case against me? It was rather obvious once you made the post that you were little threat to getting me lynched on D1. I suppose that if you had survived a day or two longer you may have been able to start convincing people of my scumminess, but WIFOM on D1 almost never works.

You played a pretty good game overall. I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't pushed for you so adamantly you would have stayed under the radar pretty well. My only real suggestion would be that you try to pick up your activity level early on in a game. If you can establish a good pro-town persona then it's alot harder for anyone who

does

notice scumminess to make a case stick. I was banking on that for D1, which is why I wasn't overly concerned when people started questioning my motives. Plus, a generally accepted blanket meta is that high activity level=pro-town (if you couldn't tell, I have been developing quite a few scum strategies).

[Kairyuu]

Oh wait. I just noticed where I called you rude. Sorry, probably too strong of wording. What I meant was that you weren't exactly beneficial to the general polite atmosphere of this particular game. Playing in other games on this site, I've noticed that there are quite a few players who decide to play like they are personally setting themselves against everyone else, and that isn't exactly fun when you assume that the other players are generally polite and don't revert to personal attacks when challenged. You are actually not rude at all compared to most of the atmosphere-killers around here.

[Kairyuu]

Lookie sig! Lookie sig! Modding a game on my RP forum!