It's the Team Mafia Tea Party (Dead Thread)

[zoraster]

Your entire team is dead. Sorry

Please don't reveal any alignment information that's unknown as of this time (e.g. if you were scum in a game, don't talk about the active scum)

[zoraster]

yeah normally i'd do spoilers, but with the game as big as this, I'm too scared to do so.

Also, Magua's flavor is awesome. Given that I'm responsible for him having to write new material, I'll take full responsibility for its awesomeness.

[zoraster]

Sorry, guys. Normally I'm all about the carefully doled out spoilers to heighten the participation in these threads, but the chance of something going wrong and messing things up (more than I already did?) is too high here.

[zoraster]

It's impressive just how early your team got out. Two full games are done now and White Flag is in lylo and STILL you're the only team to be all out. That said, the large theme is taking FOREVER to play out.

[zoraster]

haha i don't think it'll be THAT bad. But they sure are posting enough. My guess is that the game will accelerate pretty dramatically as the game goes on. In part because that's what large themes do when they get smaller, and in part because there will be more knowledge as to the matching so more kills and actions will work.

[zoraster]

the hitmen have been added!

[zoraster]

If I could institute a rule that said "everyone has to be active the entire game. there is no other option" and have people follow it, I would. But since that's impossible, it's just part of the game.

[zoraster]

I think nightless worked pretty well, egos aside.

[zoraster]

Perhaps you don't understand how the points scoring works, Kagami.

[zoraster]

Welcome to the Athenians!

[zoraster]

welcome to the leftovers and blue, blood and meth (who currently have 3 wins!)

[zoraster]

I really hope scum win the large. Makes my life easier.

[zoraster]

Welcome a huge influx of new guys!

It's actually looking good right now. We have some perfect teams going into this last game, but not SO many perfect teams that it'll involve sifting through a half dozen team threads (thank god for White Flag's scum win).

[zoraster]

I feel badly for AP who came in to that disaster. The game was really winnable for scum too if they didn't all just decide they didn't care.

[zoraster]

Teams with 100% winrate:

Young and Beautiful
Indecisive
The Cockettes

If town loses the normal, Young & Beautiful win.

If town wins the normal, it's us or Indecisive.

also young and beautiful. they aren't in the mini normal.

[zoraster]

@zor: But seriously, should those surveys have been sent out already?

that's a good question. I was planning on doing them after all games have completed, but in hindsight, doing it as each finished probably would have been better.

Replacements are a tricky question. The issue is that in a game with 64 players you're simply going to have a lot of replacements, and doing it in a way that gives teams some control is in keeping with the team mafia theme. We could pretend that replacements should never happen, but that would simply degrade the games.

[zoraster]

no they aren't. White flag was a scum win, and llamarble was town.

[zoraster]

@zor: But seriously, should those surveys have been sent out already?

that's a good question. I was planning on doing them after all games have completed, but in hindsight, doing it as each finished probably would have been better.

Replacements are a tricky question. The issue is that in a game with 64 players you're simply going to have a lot of replacements, and doing it in a way that gives teams some control is in keeping with the team mafia theme. We could pretend that replacements should never happen, but that would simply degrade the games.

or maybe don't allow people who have already gotten lynched replace into games

maybe

that was complete and utter horseshit

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[zoraster]

I mean it's just a game and everything and I'll stop being annoyed about it by the time I finish this post, but the mod team severely fucked up by allowing GreyICE to replace in and I really hope you understand that

Why?

Also, could you explain your suggestion?

[zoraster]

The problem is the asymmetry of it. There were 13 replacements this time around.

My issue with a simple pool, and why I didn't do it that way, is one of the nice things about Team Mafia is you can pick and choose who is on your team. Forcing replacements on a team may be justified, but it removes some of that feeling.

[zoraster]

I mean it's just a game and everything and I'll stop being annoyed about it by the time I finish this post, but the mod team severely fucked up by allowing GreyICE to replace in and I really hope you understand that

Why?

allowing someone who has gotten lynched to continue to contribute points to their team is unfair because it rewards poor play

additionally GreyICE had documented history with one of the players in the game that you allowed him to replace into

I don't really see how it rewards bad play. You still got lynched in one game. That's punishment enough. As to him having a history, that's normally something I'd care about in doing a game. But it's not something I can possibly hope to care about in Team Mafia. There are just too many moving parts, and I'm not going to try to step in on that.

[zoraster]

Yeah, if you have a teammate flake, your fault for having bad teammates?

I mean I understand the rationale, but my goal is to provide a competitive and whole experience for everyone. The earlier that a team checks out on Team Mafia, the worse the experience will be for everyone involved, including teams not on that team.

Plus, players and teams will just be more likely to try to dodge replacement for as long as possible, which isn't conducive to a good experience.

[zoraster]

So zor, was CES's explanation of why we ended up with nightless and Reg's team with Twin trap accurate? I'm kind of curious what happened there.

I looked back at it at the time it came up (when I was asked by Regfan), but I've since forgotten what the explanation was. I know both teams put 0 tokens in, so their choices didn't register much, but I forget the details. I'll look at it when I have some time soon (it takes me some time to reverse engineer the selection process).

[zoraster]

go for it

[zoraster]

I don't really see how it rewards bad play. You still got lynched in one game. That's punishment enough. As to him having a history, that's normally something I'd care about in doing a game. But it's not something I can possibly hope to care about in Team Mafia. There are just too many moving parts, and I'm not going to try to step in on that.

You SHOULD care and should try to avoid it. It was also bullshit because your team cannot swap living players except D1/D2, yet GreyICE replaced in late D2 and I couldn't do anything about it unless I wanted to wait around for one of my teammates to be dead?

That's just asinine.

It's not that I don't care. It's that I don't think it's an appropriate thing to be concerned about in the context of Team Mafia. You both should have been capable of behaving for a single game. There are always people we don't get along with and that we try to avoid, but it's Team Mafia and there's a good chance you'll end up with a difficult person. He could have easily ended up in your game to start with, and I'd still accept that and not step in to separate you.

And Magua spent a great deal of time stepping in to try to resolve it.

[zoraster]

For what it's worth, Empire (then Zar) spent 3 tokens on Vanilla Nightless to be town and rolled scum. Which he was convinced was a mod error, but certainly wasn't. One issue was he got unlucky. The other issue is that all but 4 teams spent tokens on being town in that game. It had the most tokens per player spent of any of the games. I guess lots agreed that it's a town sided setup.

[zoraster]

Players are never going to be modkilled for replacing out, sorry. That's a suggestion of someone who has not considered the full ramifications on Team Mafia as a whole.

[zoraster]

If I had to do it over again, I think I'd stick with my original plan which was nightless with a D3+ factional kill for scum. That lets the scum deal with at least one too town to lynch player, and in Team Mafia, town generally have an edge so it's appropriate.

[zoraster]

White flag is great. I actually think the most balanced version of it is 11 players though.

[zoraster]

Way way too small a sample size to make that statement, and the mini normal isn't over.

[zoraster]

I mean, the two times it's been run before now it's been 5 town wins to 4 scum wins, so not exactly unbalanced.

The large theme was marred by an extraordinarily apathetic scum team. Mod Error didn't get to lylo, but it did last 5 days, which is a pretty good result. Twin Trap didn't last long, but it wouldn't have whoever won (incidentally, Twin Trap had a 60% win rate for scum before now). Vanilla Nightless lasted 9 days, so it's hard not to say that was close (though worth pointing out that with 4 scum and no night kills it'll automatically last longer).

As for scum PTs, I think they'll probably be released. Team PTs will be kept private unless I'm given permission to make them public by their team.

[zoraster]

the truth is that any point system that deducts any number of points whatsoever for swapping/replacing essentially makes it so that no team can ever swap/replace. If it comes down to a tiebreaker, as it is statistically fairly likely to do, it doesn't matter if you get 10 points or 100 points for a win and -9 points or -0.0001 points for replacing: it results in the team not replacing with a win.

[zoraster]

I can't believe I took setup design advice from zoraster.

haha what?

[zoraster]

Also I don't think winning all four games should be an auto-win.

I understand feeling miffed that you played better and still lost, but ultimately winning has to be the primary determining factor.

[zoraster]

it was "funny." Except I knew I'd hear about it from Empire. I was not disappointed.

[zoraster]

So my internet went out yesterday. Have to go to a coffee shop to get an announcement up. Will be done shortly

[zoraster]

actually, nexus has to flip this first.

[zoraster]

In that position you have pretty diminishing returns on your time unless there's some mechanical shenigans you need to figure out. Not to mention you can rely on your teammates for advice reading the game rather than try to get the biased opinions of people in the game.

[zoraster]

holy shit you gave me a heart attack nacho. i thought i had messed up again.

[zoraster]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6939439