Newbie 630! Game Over!

[ashmite84]

/Confirm

[ashmite84]

Vote: Ty

- the other avatar-challenged player!

[ashmite84]

unvote, vote: deffie

to share the love

[ashmite84]

Hey I don't like the amount of votes ashmite84 is getting, someone unvote him before things go too far because we really don't want to lynch a random person in the joke vote phase.

I think the joke vote phase ends when a serious vote is made.

I agree with you, hence I will

unvote deffie

and whack a major

fos

on Ty (serious this time). Put me at L-2 in your first post of the game with no reason offered? This is actually the quickest I've ever seen someone be at L-2. Your either an opportunistic scum hoping for a quicklynch or you've made a newbie mistake. You see, what you've just done is very, very suspicious.

[ashmite84]

I feel inclined to give Ty a pass for now, but I'll be watching you. I've seen similar things before to his explanation. Also the avatar thing is / was a clear joke. Some vote alphabetically, by roll of dice, self-vote, all kinds of things for the random stage.

[ashmite84]

I feel inclined to give Ty a pass for now, but I'll be watching you. I've seen similar things before to his explanation.

Similar things being "I random voted without realizing they already had several votes"? Do you consider this more-so a town, scum, or null-tell?

No, I meant similar things as in his OMGUS vote with no reason offered. Taken at face value I consider this very much a scum-tell. As for the not paying attention to how many votes were already on me, that is very sloppy but perhaps forgiveable if this is his first game.

Ty - you must watch how many votes have been made. You could have inadvertantly hammered me, or put me within hammering distance for a scum. Also, if you are town, you still win if the town wins, even if you are dead, so the object isn't to be the last man standing, but to eliminate scum.

[ashmite84]

I'm neither IC nor playing my first game.

[ashmite84]

I also think giving a disclaimer of your playstyle is a null-tell.

[ashmite84]

I hear ya.

[ashmite84]

Hmm, that's pretty decent, especially considering where this game is currently at. The summary needs an answer.

vote: deffie

to ensure a response.

[ashmite84]

This game is growing stagnant. We need a wagon to grow discussion. Note: Guide to finding scum says that Scum

want

to tell you they are scum early on. I didn't pay this much mind at first but in my last newbie game this turned out to be true. Both the scum dropped hints in their first posts that they were the scum. Looking back it was so obvious. We ignored it and they won. I can provide a reference if anyone wants it. Deffie's asking for votes suits this mold and I'm inclined to take a closer look now. What does everyone else think?

[ashmite84]

Like my Post 97 says, I think we need a wagon,

any

wagon for this game to progress.

[ashmite84]

ash, you are advocating any wagon, just to see who gets on and off it, and you don't care where the driver is going??

fos ashmite

Not really to see who the wagoners are, I couldn't really accuse them since I called for the wagon. More to get discussion going. If one of them

hammered

however, that would be a different story. I don't even car if the first wagon is

me

. You have to start somewhere.

[ashmite84]

EBWOP: *care

[ashmite84]

Like my Post 97 says, I think we need a wagon,

any

wagon for this game to progress.

Okay.

vote: ashmite84

There, I made a vote and jumped on a bandwagon. Am I a good townie now?

Hey! I said

a

wagon! Not two wagons! We lready have your one

[ashmite84]

Not really to see who the wagoners are, I couldn't really accuse them since I called for the wagon. More to get discussion going. If one of them

hammered

however, that would be a different story. I don't even car if the first wagon is

me

. You have to start somewhere.

yeah, you seem to have got your wagon now
and really, looking at who hammers? that never works does it anymore??

Ouch! I was just saying that I wouldn't particularly scrutinize the wagoners, since it's a pressure wagon.

[ashmite84]

are you saying that so people don't look at you forming wagons?

No. I said we need a wagon. You said I just want to see who jumps on-board. I said I'm more concerned with the reaction of the player being BW'd than those on the wagon. This was the case

initially

, though SC's hasty agreeability might be cause for concern. Also, Deffie raised a number of points which I agree with, and could be said of myself (regarding playstyle etc.) which makes me want to

unvote

for now. I'll specify what she said when I post next, I'm going to sleep.

[ashmite84]

As I mentioned, Deffie said some things in post 106 in defence of herself that rang true of myself, hence my unvoting. 2 points stand out. The first about experimenting with her playstyle. In my first newbie game, I was very nearly lynched day 1 because of my vocal and aggressive playstyle (I was town). This led to most of the day being a massive back and forth argument between me and another player (who also turned out to be town), him accusing me profusely, me steadfastly maintaining that there are more playstyles than just his accepted one. This distracted from scumhunting and as I said, the scum won. So I changed to a less aggressive style, realizing that though I may be town, it matters more how you come off to other players.

The second point was the one about the most vocal being scrutinized for this very reason. I don't agree with this at all and am quite a vocal player myself. Again, this was heavily scrutinized in my other game. I failed to see how posting often was a scumtell and the scum used it against me. Too vocal? Bah!

Therefore I'm inclined to lay off of Deffie for now.

[ashmite84]

I just found ashmite's post 124 very interesting.

He just stated for a fact that some people (including himself) were town, and I don't know how he would know that. Maybe he just used overly enthusiastic and definitive diction when writing the post and meant to say he was fairly certain instead of "know" that certain people are town.

But claiming town, especially right now, means absolutely nothing.

But his certainty at knowing other people are town?

So I

FOS: ashmite

.

I've just read my post 124 twice and can not find one trace of what you are talking about. Can you please point out examples?

[ashmite84]

Questions asked so far

(by the way, if a question is asked to the group at large, we should all answer them)

1. CC wants to know who is scummiest: geraintm, deffie or omni.
I say omni right now. Look at all omni's posts, s/he has basically said nothing so far.

2. Deffie wants to know what people think of her case against Omni.
I'm getting a scum-vibe after re-reading all Omni's "posts". Will decide whether a vote is warranted or not after Omni replies.

3. geraintm wants to know if people consider him scummy for still

fos

ing me.
No (until you asked, now I'm not so sure).

[ashmite84]

are people still finding me scummy then, because of my vote for ash?

So it was.

[ashmite84]

Whether others agree with strife's logic or not, he seems to be genuinely playing for the town. I'll pencil him in as town for now.

[ashmite84]

It's interesting how ashmite84, the guy who was trying to push us to bandwagon blindly, isn't voting anyone, and hasn't been since last week. Ashmite, if you had to guess right now, who would you think is scum?

I've been watching StrangerCoug, (but not saying anything) to monitor his posting without him knowing I was watching. He has acted eratically in my opinion, also sometimes seemed to be too agreeable. If I had to pick right now I would say SC.

[ashmite84]

"Someone's stickin' a red-hot poker up our asses and I wanna know whose name is on the handle!"

[ashmite84]

Granted, I should have waited for a defense, but nowhere did I imply that Deffie was not allowed to defend and claim at the same time, even though yes, my claim requests are starting to follow the "claim or die" format. Purely hypothetical example of such a post Deffie could have made if she were really at L-1:

I did this because that happened, and when so and so did such and such I thought yadda yadda yadda about it, so I decided to vote this person, and so on and so forth.

Since I'm at L-1, I claim such and such a pro-town role.

Replace all those filler words with something that makes actual sense to you, true or not. As I said, it's a hypothetical post.

The disclaimer of being a hypothetical post does not nullify the fact that this post is scummy to me. It's like you are a lazy scum saying "Well, you see <enter whatever will appease your suspicions here>, and let's be done with it."

I believed ashmite84's case on Deffie on her asking for votes since the former said scum usually leave hints in their first posts that they are such.

How many votes am I at, by the way?

First, I think it's a stretch to call my single comment on Deffie a 'case'. If you look it up, it was just a clutch-at-straws remark I made when there was nothing better on offer, and I acknowledged the flimsyness at the time.

Second, the whole tone of this post seems scummy. Don't ask me to clarify, it's just gut.

OK, so I'm relatively safe.

Note to self: Watch it with your posts.

Are the only major cases on me asking Deffie to claim thinking I put her at L-1 and not forming my own opinions?

Again, something about this post doesn't smell right, especially the bold. Like you are trying to hard to appear as transparent as possible in order to act townly. The question at the end attempts to minimize the case on you.

He was leaning town at the time, but your vote is making me believe that otherwise is the case with him.

In fact,

Unvote: Deffie

and

Vote: ashmite84

at the risk of making this look like a distancing act because I waited for someone to bring it up before suspecting him.

ashmite84, I want to hear your case on Deffie again.

The part I've bolded is you following the crowd again in an attempt to curry favor. You also hve terrible timing as now it just looks like you are flip-flopping the second the slightest pressure comes your way. I wouldn't accuse you of distancing but I would accuse you of the aforementioned.

Again, I never had a 'case' on Deffie. I had one single thought, which was that saying 'no-one's random voting me, I feel so unloved' struck me as odd. Like I've said, Guide to Scumhunting states that scum sometimes hide something like this in an early post. It's not a breadcrumb - they want you to realize

after

the game, not during it. I didn't write this guide, just read it. I don't know if it's true, I only know it happened in my last newbie game. Again, I can provide a link to this game if anyone wants it.

I've since said I'm not currently suspicious of Deffie because, after her explanation, her style sounds similar to mine.

So I don't know how to play Day 1. Sue me.

This might be the case, and if you are lynched and flip town I will be sorry, but this sounds like you have accepted your fate. You are also playing the newbie card (yes, I'm aware tis is a newbie game).

vote: StrangerCoug

[ashmite84]

unvote

until / unless someone CC's. Will answer you later. I've only got a couple of mins now.

[ashmite84]

I don't follow. It looks to me like you are connecting the hypothetical post I put up with my playing the newbie card, which doesn't make sense.

No, I was suggesting that you were making a cover-all-bases defence but not really saying anything.

Who's clutching straws, you or Deffie?

I

was. Remember this was in a stage in the game that was not as free-flowing as it is now.

If at any point you can, then do so.

The scumminess I sensed in that post was probably to do with it looked like you were trying / (are trying?) to lay off onto me any heat you were receiving ('I was just following orders'). Also you wanted to know how many votes you had. I realize that sometimes a vote count request is just a vote count request, but it sounded like you were trying to act casual and unconcerned as you could have easily looked it up for yourself.

Then I don't understand why you brought it up during the game, and I feel misled here. Explain, and give the link if you feel it necessary.

I brought it up because as I said, at that time we

really

didn't have a lot to go on, and it looked like this game was going to be a lurk-fest, so I went on what little I had.

Newbie 592 is the game I've been refering to, for anyone interested. For those who care, note how the scum (iamausername and fhqwgads) left a little hint in their first posts. Iam said 'I wanted a scum role because it's a more interesting challenge'. Fhq says 'I always liked being evil' and gave us a sly wink. Hardly 'damning' but undeniably there. That's what I've been talking about.

Sorry to those uninterested, for getting slightly off-topic.

---

Also SC - a claim is better than a mislynch,

if

you were going to be lynched anyway, which it looked like you were.

[ashmite84]

You seem sure that SC's claim was truthful.

Not at all. What part of that post gave you that impression?

ok, yosarian, ash and sminty.
i would be very surprised it at least one of you three isn't scum

I was thinking similarly. Except I'd say 'I wouldn't be surprized if one of you two is scum'. Your post seems too near-certain, and I know I'm not scum (though this doesn't help the rest of the town), and finally I rather think that there wouldn't be two scum on this one wagon (though there's nothing to say it couldn't happen).

does my logic make sense to people? do people understand why i have singled out these 3? do people think my thinking is totally wrong?? please tell me if i am.

Your logic makes sense to me. I understand why you have pointed out we 3. I don't think your thinking is wrong. The odds are there.

Having said that, this could also be a good strategy for scum to park a vote.

[ashmite84]

Ash: Your reasoning here is more difficult to follow than Geraintm's. You were a member of the wagon, you obviously thought SC was scum, and now you're assuming he's town and looking for scum on the same wagon you were on? Can you elaborate here? Do you now think SC is town?

Yes, I thought SC was scum. That's not to say I am now sure he's not. It's just that this claim complicates things, and now I'm not

as[/] confidant.

If we decide that we believe his claim, then I would think that there would be 1 scumbag on his wagon (not 2). Again, this is very complicated because I don't actually have a problem with the way that any of the SC-voters went about pressuring and placing their vote, so my thoughts are purely crunching the numbers. 1 claimed doc, 4 on his wagon (1 of whom is me, and I have the benefit of knowing myself to be town, so in my mind, 3 potential scum on his wagon, 4 players / potential scum not on his wagon.

I am at a loss somewhat. Part of me thinks that we should just lynch SC anyway, because of the following:

If he's scum - yay!

If he's the Doc (scenario 1) - scum might target him N1 anyway.

If he's the Doc (scenario 2) - scum might

not

target him in order to cast suspicion on him, slowing down future days in WIFOM and misplaced suspicion.

Also, if he is scum, he and his scumbuddy could submit a no-kill on N1, and the following day he reports who he "protected", thus "confirming" he and his partner as town.

I would say if anyone is sitting on the doc role and knows SC to be lying to claim now, you would most likely be killed but because of all my above reasons I don't know what else to do.

well, of course you would say 1 of 2

That was the less important part of my post. The more important part was

if

you are scum, then you would know SC's alignment. Then this wagon would provide you with easy-pickin's to lynch a (known to you) townie. Especially if your scumbuddy were on the wagon, then you could just pick one of the others. This is what I meant by convenient. I would have preferred that you said which of the three you were currently intending of voting, not '1 of the 3'. Saying 1 of the 3 sets you up later to vote for the easier lynch, and is scummy.

[ashmite84]

I am at a loss somewhat. Part of me thinks that we should just lynch SC anyway, because of the following:

If he's scum - yay!

If he's the Doc (scenario 1) - scum might target him N1 anyway.

If he's the Doc (scenario 2) - scum might

not

target him in order to cast suspicion on him, slowing down future days in WIFOM and misplaced suspicion.

Even if you think I am scum, it has already been argued that lynching claimed doc Day 1 if there is no counterclaim is too risky.

You pointed out all my points except this one:

Also, if he is scum, he and his scumbuddy could submit a no-kill on N1, and the following day he reports who he "protected", thus "confirming" he and his partner as town.

This is an important one.

I'm not saying that I believe or don't believe you. I'm saying that even if you are not scum, the way things have played out thus far can potentially allow the scum to manipulate your claim to their advantage in other ways than just killing you if you are telling the truth.

In one way I'm saying that there is enough of a chance that you are lying that you would be a good lynch anyway and that even if you flipped town, it would have been worth the risk.

I would say if anyone is sitting on the doc role and knows SC to be lying to claim now, you would most likely be killed but because of all my above reasons I don't know what else to do.

Is it just me, or are you trying to create WIFOM?

I was backing up my CC suggestion with a likely reaction to show I knew the risks involved. This isn't really WIFOM, but I think I get what you mean. Guessing at the scum's reactions?

Is your vote on me OMGUS? Or can you not see a townie using my logic?

[ashmite84]

Scenario 1 is terribly flawed. If he's doc, lynching him today will guarantee we lose a doc and another pro-town by D2. If we don't lynch him (which I think is inarguable the decision to make), and he gets killed at night, then we guaranteed lose our doc, but have a chance of hitting scum on the lynch. 1 town death + a new lynch choice >> 2 town deaths.

I didn't flesh out my reasoning very well. I meant that since he would probably be NK'd anyway, it was possibly worth the risk of such an iffy claim (PR / D1 / first decent wagon). Anyhow I mentioned that I was in two minds about how to handle this. As you say '

if

he's doc...' I think someone else would be a better lynch, not quite sure who though.

First you say you want to look at the SC wagon to find scum. Then you accuse Geraintm of being opportunistic scum for looking on the SC wagon? Couldn't Geraintm say the exact same thing about you, Ashmite?

This is a possible strawman but there is a legitimate question hidden in there. The main difference between the two of us is that I implied suspicion, ger implied near-certainty.

[ashmite84]

even if I turn out to be scum, what benefit is gained in lynching me today?

[ashmite84]

even if I turn out to be scum, what benefit is gained in lynching me today?

Don't just stand there bug-eyed! Give me an answer!

Okay, I'll bite.... If you turn out to be scum, the benefit to be gained in lynching you today is one less scum.

[ashmite84]

I've already said I'm no longer thinking to lynch you, this comment just seemed really weird.

[ashmite84]

Okay, I'll bite.... If you turn out to be scum, the benefit to be gained in lynching you today is one less scum.

And how about the benefit of lynching me if I really am the doc? I'm trying to go both sides of the coin here concerning myself.

Ah! Well, you didn't ask that before. Benefit of lynching you if doc is a big fat bagel.

You still said you wanted me lynched anyway, and it's not something that's going to be dropped anytime soon. We're not likely to drop my putting Deffie at what I thought was L-1 based on your thinking, so as much as you and I try to retract and defend what we've done, what makes you think a different situation applies to you and me at this point besides my claim?

I didn't say I wanted you lynched, I said I partly did because of all the reasons I stated. You don't have to drop it. What makes it different? The fact that....

I am the doc

[ashmite84]

-ile townie.

[ashmite84]

I am the doc

-ile townie.

Was this a pure joke Ashmite or some sort of gambit

Double edged sword. Pure joke but joke would have ended if SC had actually responded. I

was

going to let SC post before posting the punchline but he logged off.

[ashmite84]

I am the doc

-ile townie.

Stop teasing me. Now it's hard to tell whether you're really counterclaiming or not.

Sorry.

Not

CC'ing.

[ashmite84]

I didn't say I wanted you lynched, I said I

partly

did because of all the reasons I stated.

This is contradictory. Care to explain?

(EDIT: bolded / italicised for emphasis.)

Not contradictory. Just me being in two minds.

[ashmite84]

...also, I have no idea what ashmite's doing on this page with the "I'm the doc just kidding" claim, and StrangerCoug's responses look really weird as well.

I made that post with tongue-in-cheek, because SC was dropping gems like this on us:

even if I turn out to be scum, what benefit is gained in lynching me today?

[ashmite84]

"Even if I am scum" implies that I may or may not be scum, and I'm trying to make ashmite84 see both sides of the coin.

I do see both sides and am happy to leave you be. Just stop sounding so scummy if you are the doc. Let's not get into that though cause I can just see us going in round in circles.

[ashmite84]

Strife - By attempting to cover all bases I have come off as hypocritical. I have argued for one thing while arguing the case against it just as vehemently. I have tried to unravel the confusion so let me try once more trying to keep things simple.

Scum on the SC wagon

: I've already answered once but you seem to have forgotten. I was

suspicious

, ger seemed

positive

. See the difference? Of course this assumes that SC is legit, which I'm doubting more by the second, though not necessarily that he's scum, maybe just a 'nilla townie. FTR I don't believe in Lynch All Liars. Also my opinion is obviously colored by the fact that I know myself to be town, but that doesn't help anyone else in the town, so never mind that part.

Playing With SC's claim / joke CC

: SC just sounded so fake after his claim that I was was playing a game of cat and mouse with him. Might have got him to slip up if he was scum. He seemed concerned about a CC and was frankly posting some crap (no offense SC). I hope this joke doesn't lead to a mislynch. A simple meta-read of myself will show that sometimes I just can't resist a joke even if that joke dents my town credibility.

References on request.

[ashmite84]

Ashmite, you seem to be more interested in denying SC as town then actually trying to deny you are scum, what's going on?

Which part or parts of my post? I didn't get that at all.

[ashmite84]

Ashmite: You talked about sounding hypocritical and then put all the focus on the SC claim that has already been suggested that we move on from, maybe that's you trying to put attention back on SC rather than yourself.

Not so. I was answering Strife the two questions he asked me.

[ashmite84]

Ashmite: You talked about sounding hypocritical and then put all the focus on the SC claim that has already been suggested that we move on from, maybe that's you trying to put attention back on SC rather than yourself.

Not so. I was answering Strife the two questions he asked me.

So who do you think you would vote for?

At this point - probably ger.

[ashmite84]

Because of this:

if

you are scum, then you would know SC's alignment. Then this wagon would provide you with easy-pickin's to lynch a (known to you) townie. Especially if your scumbuddy were on the wagon, then you could just pick one of the others. This is what I meant by convenient. I would have preferred that you said which of the three you were currently intending of voting, not '1 of the 3'. Saying 1 of the 3 sets you up later to vote for the easier lynch, and is scummy.

[ashmite84]

Claim: Plain ole Townie

Strife I never said someone on the SC wagon

must

be scum, just likely (if SC's town). Even if SC was acting scummy that would be more incentive for scum to vote him (again,if he's town).

My / ger's thoughts here will become more or less credible once / if SC dies and his alignment is revealed.

Also there were several people that thought that SC's lynch was still a good idea, I have somehow become the scapegoat, possibly because I had the most interaction with SC afterwards because he somehow focused on me.

Fisher's vote on me is too oportunistic and his predecessor was iffy aswell -

unvote, vote: fisherofmen

[ashmite84]

Would anyone on my wagon who is

not

happy with my being hammered yet please unvote before someone hammers prematurely ?

[ashmite84]

More votes on fisher please.

Go go go!

[ashmite84]

*Pulls the string coming out of my back.*

Fisher's vote on me is too oportunistic and his predecessor was iffy aswell

[ashmite84]

Yos, you are starting to sound like Strife (asking questions that have already been answered).

[ashmite84]

Fisher, I see you there Lurky McLurk Nothing here worth you commenting on?

[ashmite84]

This is all looking rather interesting from you ashmite, desperation much?

I don't know if I want to be the one to cast the vote though, but man I'm SO close, very very very fos!

I'm pretty sure I'm getting lynched now. I may as well self-hammer but I want to see who has the guts to hammer me, to see if they later turn out to be scum.

[ashmite84]

Thanks for the support and birthday wishes Deffie

Omni, very true, I've

never

been lynched yet (or NK'd, only day-vigged). That would make a nice present

[ashmite84]

Thanks buddy If you are town, then I hope this is not a game of 'firsts' all-round