Newbie 602 - Finally Over!

[Rishi]

Vote: BrettH84

[Rishi]

My Milked Eek gave no reason either. What's the difference?

[Rishi]

I see.

Who are the other ICs, by the way? I'm one of them.

[Rishi]

camn is like ninja, sneaking in with that vote there.

[Rishi]

I do play differently as an IC. I tend to be more helpful.

I usually point out at this point that when I give generalized advice in a newbie game, I do it without respect to my role. So, if I say something like, "You shouldn't claim on Day 1 unless you're in danger of being lynched," then that's good advice that I would give anyone. I'm not trying to manipulate the game.

If, however, I say, "We should all lynch CallMeLiam. He's scum." That's advice specific to the game, and I could be manipulating you.

Of course, in this game, I am town, so you should all feel free to follow whatever I say blindly. (Obligatory controversial statement to spark discussion.)

[Rishi]

I might speculate openly about power roles (especially doc), but I don't expect anyone to claim unless they have to in order to prevent a mislynch.

How is this helpful behavior? If you do this openly, all you're doing is giving more information to scum, unless you're deliberately planting false information. If you don't speculate, does that mean that you have a power role?

I remember playing in a face-to-face group where one guy was insanely good at reading people. In every game, he would point out who the "seer" (or "cop" in this game). We played three games and he was right in every single one of them. And sure enough the "werewolves" ("mafia") would kill the seer on Night 1 every time. We kept trying to tell him to stop but he just couldn't understand why a villager should keep information hidden.

So we started to lynch him until he got the message.

[Rishi]

Man, I'm totally going to get Chief and Liam mixed up in this game because of the similarity of their avatars. It's okay. I'll deal for now.

Anyway,

Unvote

. I feel that we are carving a path out of the random stage.

[Rishi]

dz1 - This is a slow game. Games will usually take a few weeks, and could go months. Have a little patience.

[Rishi]

I'm with the Chief. . .FOS's are for sissies. :) I can express my suspicions more eloquently that that. But for real reactions? Voting is key.

Thanks for the advice, newbie.

Vote: camn

Now react, damnit.

[Rishi]

Also, Rishi, aren't you doing what I just said? Voting to draw out a reaction?

Yup. Give that man a cookie!

[Rishi]

Actually I had a thought to give a third vote for [jas] or camn, to see are there anyone dumb enough to hammer, in which case it would be quite obvious to say that mafia consists of two complete newbies, but they have to be

too

dumb to do that so I just gave it up..

Nine players. It takes five votes to lynch.

[Rishi]

Oh duh. You knew that. You meant that two people would successively vote.

That is dumb, if you're not in a lynch-or-lose situation.

[Rishi]

Also, Suspicion is what Mafia is all about. I say that you can't be overly suspicious. YOu can jump to conclusions a lot, but that's about all.

I disagree. I think you can be overly suspicious. There's only two scum in the game. If you are finding 6 or 7 players scummy, then something is terribly wrong.

[Rishi]

.
b) The wiki is SO AVAILABLE! Are you serious about "whats an OMGUS"?

Chill out. It's a newbie game. Many people are too lazy to go to the wiki or don't know that it's there.

[Rishi]

Because I was just in a bad mood. Being new is not that suspect.

Well, new people can be scum too. But I think one of the hardest things in newbie games is separating newbie scum behavior from just plain stupid newbie behavior.

[Rishi]

Just because no one asks you anything doesn't mean you can't be active. If you're playing a purely defensive game, you're playing a weak game.

[Rishi]

Iceall does have a good point - that Day 1 is hard. But that's why you have to push people. Make mountains out of molehills. If someone says something a little bit off, it's not so much what they say that's important, but how they react to the ensuing pressure.

[Rishi]

MME says that Iceall makes a good point, yet he guns after Jas for the exact same thing. I find that very strange...

Is it the exact same thing? Doesn't seem like it. I'd like clarification on this statement.

[Rishi]

Unvote, Vote: Chief91592

For starting a crap case on MME.

[Rishi]

Rishi, why did you decide to pick chief to vote on for making a crapcase, while -as he admitted- liam made an equal-in-crappiness-case the page before?

To see how people would react. Unfortunately, people don't react in this game. They just sit around. We don't need prods in this thread. We need more interesting conversation.

[Rishi]

Unvote; Vote: Rishi

. Just a gut feeling at this stage, but since the start of the game you seem to have been trying to promote yourself as the "helpful person who everyone should trust" and you've been dropping comments through that seem "helpful", but I wonder if there's a reason behind the scenes that you're trying to gain the town's trust that what you say is probably right?

I am trying to be helpful because I am one of the ICs. I would be less helpful if this wasn't a newbie game, but my primary goal is to help newbies learn the ropes. My secondary goal is to win, but I won't manipulate people in that way - mostly because it's not a helpful tactic to be exposed to. In non-newbie games, you just don't see the experienced players trying to direct the inexperienced players that much.

Also, you'll remember I said this in the beginning of the game. You'll find in all the newbie games where I'm IC, I say something similar in the first page or two:

I do play differently as an IC. I tend to be more helpful.

I usually point out at this point that when I give generalized advice in a newbie game, I do it without respect to my role. So, if I say something like, "You shouldn't claim on Day 1 unless you're in danger of being lynched," then that's good advice that I would give anyone. I'm not trying to manipulate the game.

If, however, I say, "We should all lynch CallMeLiam. He's scum." That's advice specific to the game, and I could be manipulating you.

[Rishi]

EVERYONE's vote is random on D1. I'm just jovial about it. :D But an OMGUS at this point? S-U-S-P-E-C-T!

Not necessarily true. Most people's initial votes are random, but when discussion picks up on Day 1 (and hopefully it will), then you can justify your vote to some degree.

[Rishi]

Thinking about moving my vote to [jas].

He's criticizing me for being helpful, and yet he's not being helpful at all. And he's an IC.

[Rishi]

Unvote

I would've switched my vote to [jas], but his last post was actually helpful and entirely correct.

[Rishi]

sometimes a townie lynch can be the best thing for the town

Jas.. I think a townie LYNCH is usually not good! A plain vanilla NK, yes.. but a Lynch? Shouldn't we be lynching scum, instead?I do agree that a plain vanilla townie falling to the mafia is better than a power role.................... but I always hate getting killed! I'm willing, if it means we will win. . . . but in my life, a town without my good looks and charm is a poor town indeed! :)

Not necesarily. If a townie is acting incredibly scummy (either unintentionally or just some bad play), it's probably best to lynch that townie. That way we can clear our head and focus on something else. Also, sometimes there's a such thing as an informational lynch, where finding out someone's alignment will help to clarify everyone's else alignment.

Now, I'm not advocating that we INTENTIONALLY lynch a townie, but it's not like it's the end of the world.

[Rishi]

dz's asked for replacement, so I'll gladly chalk him up as a non-factor, but iceall's continued lurking looks pretty poor.

No. You can't blame someone for "lurking" unless the player has been posting elsewhere on this site and blatantly ignoring this game. You could also blame someone for lurking if they continue to post but don't provide much (or any) real content (i.e. lurking in plain sight). But Iceall has not been posting anywhere on the site except in this game. That's more indicative of someone who has lost interest in Mafia altogether or is extremely busy. This is NOT a scumtell.

Besides, I never like it when someone tries to start a case on an absent player. The absent player is such an easy target and you know that he won't defend himself.

[Rishi]

Catching up? There haven't been that many posts since your last one.

[Rishi]

I forgot that [jas] still has a vote on me. What's up with that?

[Rishi]

Mod: how many required to lynch?

Rishi: still watching you ;) But more that I havent come up with a better target for a vote yet (much as the camn bandwagon is starting to become more attractive), and given that I have the one and only vote on you, no harm in keeping it there?

Okay. Fair enough.

[Rishi]

Yeah. I don't see camn being lynched now. I'm really not convinced that she's scum and I don't see myself placing a vote there any time soon.

[Rishi]

Do we know what's going on with Iceall?

[Rishi]

OK, this holding pattern is getting us nowhere fast. Maybe chasing a different player for a bit will help us out.

unvote

Rishi, the case on camn is pretty weak at the moment, but it's the only angle we seem to be following. Who would you prefer to see pressured? Do you even think that randomly applying pressure to new players is all that helpful of a day one strategy?

Happy scumday, by the way. I didn't realize we joined the site around the same time, but I guess I've never played with you before.

I'm kind of waiting for all players to be active, but I don't know about applying pressure to newbies unless they've done something to deserve it. Even town newbies sometimes react badly to pressure. No one likes being lynched.

The reason I am waiting for all players to be active is that I suspect one of the scum might be hiding amongst the lurkers.

[Rishi]

MME: You'd prefer I stayed silent?

I noticed something of interest, so I posted it. I have been vaugely following this game, but I do have to admit that for the past week or so it's only been skim-reading new posts which is probably why I haven't come up with anything notable (and thus haven't said anything). I want to go back and re-read the whole thing to get my bearings again, but that isn't happening in the next couple of days unfortunately.

I totally understand this comment in some games, but in this game, there's not much to read. I think you'd get the gist of the thread even if you were just skimming. It's not like people have been making monster posts.

I think laziness is a bit of a null-tell, but that still doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Rishi]

Can I suggest an information lynch?

Who are you suggesting that we informationally lynch? I don't know if there's anyone who would give us that much info.

I didn't mean right now >_>

Then when did you mean?

[Rishi]

So, Mellowed Man has nine postings in other threads since his last post in this one. This suggests intentional lurking, rather than inactivity due to not logging on much.

Vote: Mellowed Man

[Rishi]

Interesting way for things to play out...

Stranger Coug, why put MellowedMan at L-1? Sure, he's looking EXTREMELY suspicious, but I don't know if his behavior warrants four votes...

Also, I's still waiting for Camn to respond to Liam's 239

I'm not saying MellowedMan is innocent, in fact, he's number one on my scumdar right now. However, I'd like to get an answer from Camn before anything else big happens.

Obviously, you want to say I'm suspicious, and that you agree with everyone else blah blah blah blah. However, you say "I'm not saying MM is innocent." This indicates that you don't want responsibility of your actions if I am lynched.

Why would you know I'm innocent and say that anyway? If you said so, no one would believe you anyhow. I don't see how an answer from Camn on that question would mean anything as opposed to matters about ME.

unvote, vote Chief

Hesitancy= scum in this situation IMHO.

I think MM makes a great point here, actually. Saying you're suspicious of someone that might get lynched is essentially playing both sides of the fence. If the person is scum, you get credit for the lynch. If the person turns up town, you can point to the fact that you didn't place a vote.

Still, I want more contribution from MM before I remove my vote.

[Rishi]

We can talk in twilight, as can MM (at least according to customary practice), but nothing we say counts and nor do our votes. So there's no reason not to just wait.

[Rishi]

td,

townie

, was killed N2. Day Three, 5 alive, 3 to lynch. Sorry for the delay, I have been obnoxiously busy with work.

Yes. I need to read as well. But, didn't td die N1? And there are seven alive?

[Rishi]

Wow. This was a boring re-read.

I think td was a weird choice for a night kill. He was kind of a lurker. He was suspicious of Chief before he died. I know that's a big pile of WIFOM, but I think it's the best we got right now.

Where's MME?

[Rishi]

I already said that I think Chief deserves some scrutiny. Something about MME also seemed off in my re-read, though I can't put my finger on it.

But, without a full contingent, I don't know how productive this will be.

[Rishi]

EBWOP..

I mean.. the night phase took approx 1 MILLION YEARS to finish... maybe it was because the scum are lurking so hard it took them a week to get their vote in?

The mod admitted that it was his fault that it took forever for the thread to open. What is your point?

[Rishi]

Don't self vote. That's just ridiculous.

[Rishi]

Don't self vote. That's just ridiculous.

But I can't bring myself to Lurk.. and I wanna tear my hair out!

Of course... I also play this game on a different site in REAL TIME.. that is, a deadline EVERY NIGHT.
They are big games, and emotional, and I wish they were slower.. but not THIS slow.

I understand your frustration. I think this site has a lot of good players on it, and you can learn a lot. I know that my face-to-face game has improved dramatically from playing on this site. Perhaps you should sign up for a non-newbie game?

[Rishi]

Uh... we do, but I won't cast a lynching vote until the game is back on track.

[Rishi]

It's up to the other players, but we could abandon this game. Since Liam and I are ICs, it's no big deal to us (since the game is here to benefit newbies). StrangerCoug was a replacement anyway, and could replace into another game. And, if Flay agrees, camn could be bumped to the top of the newbie queue as compensation.

[Rishi]

I'm still willing to play if you guys want to salvage it too. As far as I'm concerned, it's what camn and StrangerCoug want to do. I enjoy newbie games too, but these games aren't for me.

[Rishi]

Am I at L-1 now? could I hammer myself? :)

Theoretically, yes, but don't.

Want to hear from [jas] and MME (or replacement)...

[Rishi]

Sweet. I should probably read this thread again. I remember my last re-read being very dull, but I'll try to get to this soon.

[Rishi]

Wow. Really really boring read, but it's done. Anyone else think td was kind of an unusual night choice? Usually one of the ICs gets knocked off.

At least camn is playing, so I don't really want to see her lynched. There's so little actual content on the first day that I feel kind of directionless right now. Right now, this is the best I got:

Vote: Fuzzyman

td was suspicious of Chief. As I said earlier, I know that's a big pile of WIFOM, but it's the only reason I can imagine he was killed. Also, I don't like how Fuzzyman entered the game only to jump on the bandwagon.

[Rishi]

Fuzzyman, it's easier for us to understand what the original quote was if you put your own words outside of the boxes rather than inject the words in the boxes and set those words off.

Also, bold should be reserved for votes and questions for the mod.

I will respond to Fuzzyman's points later tonight.

[Rishi]

I disagree with your reasoning on not wanting to see camn die. Even if camn is partaking in this game a good bit, 3 active townies and 1 active scum is better than 2 active townie and 2 active scum. Then it becomes so much easier for the active townies to be convinced by the scum to go on the wrong person.

Theoretically, everyone should be participating. You can't separate the game into active/inactive players until everyone is in the game. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't try to kill camn before everyone has entered the discussion and the game is back on track. I think it's suspicious that you're trying to get rid of her without any justification or discussion.

Actually, if you read later into Day One, he begins to lighten up more on Chief and pushes on [jas] more. And as to the bandwagon, would you feel the same way if Chief had done what I had done? My job here is to take Chief's position until the game ends, and I

have

read through this game.

Yeah, but once you're suspicious of someone, that really doesn't go away. Besides, your vote is a combination of the suspicion from td and your opportunistic vote on camn. I think [jas] does deserve some scrutiny, but there's no point in attacking him until he posts again. You're here now.

Speaking of opportunistic, let's talk about StrangerCoug's vote-hopping. He's already voted three different people today, and except for his vote on me, he never initiated any of the suspicion. Comments?

Also, on a side note, I just learned that Mellowed Man got banned from the site. He was a jerk, for sure. Just found that interesting for those of you who don't keep up with the rest of the site.

[Rishi]

Still really busy changing jobs so it's short post o'clock.

Rishi, Coug's vote-hopping looks more like a playstyle to me than opportunistic scum, so I'm not too worried yet.

You're an IC. Do you find this manner of playstyle effective?

[Rishi]

How is it "Anti-Town" for ME to vote for me.....
but somehow ok for YOU to vote for me?

99% of the time, people who vote themselves are scum at L-1 who are trying to give away as little information about themselves as possible, which is why Rishi called you out for it.

Don't worry—he called me out in the other newbie game we were in together for the exact same thing (it's over, so I'm allowed to say it). You remember that, Rishi, don't you?

I do remember that.

Actually, that's not true. Most of the time when someone self-votes, it's a newbie who is frustrated with the game and doesn't know any better. They just think, "May as well get it over with."

The problem with that thinking is, if the newbie is town, then information can be gleaned from the lynch. Who jumps on the bandwagon? Who drops the hammer? What do people say when they place their votes? Even if your lynch in inevitable, it's more helpful to let other people lynch you than for you to lynch yourself.

Unless, of course, you're scum. Then you don't want the town to gather info.

[Rishi]

EBWOP:

Oh.. I've also seen people self-vote in the random stage. It usually sparks discussion. I wouldn't suggest doing this every time, but it's effective every so often.

[Rishi]

Mod: Please prod Fuzzyman.

Also, 11:59PM in what time zone?

Why just Fuzzyman? He's posted more recently than Ameliaslay or MME.

[Rishi]

I think Rage makes some good points, but I still strongly prefer a Fuzzyman lynch to camn. I want to do an isolated re-read on camn.

We have not gotten any information on Day 2. At this point, I would strongly recommend that no one drop the hammer until everyone has checked in and told us what they think of a camn lynch. Because, if camn flips town, then we'll be in a lynch or lose situation with practically no information gleaned from the lynch.

I know that you're all getting impatient, but the chronic lurking in this thread is really hurting the game. The lurking will mean we won't be able to get a read on half the players, which makes it really easy for scum to hide.

[Rishi]

Also, Liam, I am calling you out. It is bad form for an IC to lurk in a game. Your job is to help keep the game moving. Please make more of an effort in this game. Thanks.

[Rishi]

Here.

Was away for the weekend and work picked up big time.

Posting something of value tomorrow.

That post was on July 6.

Hola everyone! Re-reading and should post content by this evening

That post was July 11.

Sorry to be a jerk, but really, we made a decision to salvage this game, and I want to see everyone at least try.

[Rishi]

This is a bizarre and silly defense. Still happy to vote here.

Oh. Come on. You can do better than that.

Unvote, Vote: CallMeLiam

[Rishi]

And I don't have a role to claim.

What do you mean by this? Saying this in the first place in confusing and unnecessary, of course you have a role, otherwise you would not be in this game. Only Scum want to deny the existence of their role.

????

She claimed townie. I know you saw it. It was in the same line at the one you quoted. You just conveniently cut it off prior to the claim.

What are you getting at? This is really blatant manipulation of what she said.

Also,

Flay: Can you prod MME and Ameliaslay?

[Rishi]

She said "clueless townie".

"Townie" means "Vanilla."

I think we all knew what she meant. Why you're trying to deceive us, I don't know.

[Rishi]

This logic doesn't work, because I am NOT trying to get camn lynched.

[Rishi]

What makes you say this?

Rishi is defending camn despite what looks like very scummy play. I doubt that camn would be terrible enough to defend her scump that openly. If he were bussing her it'd be one thing, but he's not.

You just think it's scummy because I called you out for lurking. My "weak" attacks on you aren't any worse than your "weak" attacks on me.

[Rishi]

Not only that, but you've managed to take me calliong camn's play scummy and twist it into an attack on you.

Hmm. Misread the last post by you. I thought you were calling me scummy, and not camn.

You're contributing more now. I'll give you that. Maybe this game can finally move forward. We're still missing two though.

[Rishi]

I think camn has enough votes for a deadline lynch.

I really do wish that everyone was participating. I am a little wary of Ameliaslay's role (her predecessor was [jas]) and I think something was off about MME. I'm hoping that when Flay gets back from vacation that he'll extend the deadline while he gets replacements.

Oh... and since Liam is participating:

Unvote

[Rishi]

Mod may have left as well.

I will be V/LA until early on the 23rd, but should be able to get on often enough to provide vote counts every day or so.